Prometheus

I was not prepared for this. It was nothing I expected, and I'm not sure if I'm disappointed or elated. Seriously, just... wow. Wtf did I just watch?

I haven't seen the Avengers yet, much less Prometheus. Damn I wanna see this. =[

I feel the trailers and imagery so far have probably leaked a lot of the plot.

Since it's been brought up...well, here's a rant/review I posted on HBO's forums. Enjoy...or not...

I think you raise some good points. As I mentioned, that the mala'kak's motivations are never explained works to the film's advantage almost. No-one has an answer, and it may not even be a question that is worth asking in the first place (e.g. under evolutionary theory, there's no "why" we're here, because why implies intent). Depends on how you choose to view the world.
That being said, casting the 'searching for God' angle aside, I still think the film has weaknesses, and that's primarily in its human cast. To me, much of the film felt rushed. The scenes of the empty 'Prometheus' felt rushed. The breakfast scene felt rushed. The scientists are "rushing out" to investigate the structure. They rush to take their helmets off (bad idea really-even if the air's breathable, surely they know that micro-organisms could still be present. Nitpick I know, but...) The storm comes 'rushing in.'

So this is basically the first act. Felt a bit rushed, but then, I'm comparing it to 'Alien' and its own slow pacing. Up to this point, while the film has been a bit fast paced, I've still enjoyed it. Then...stuff happens.

So, our geologist and biologist are seperated because...well, quite frankly, because the plot calls for it. Scientists head back, run tests, gloom settles over the ship. Halloway is drunk because...um, he wanted to talk to the Engineers. And, you know, everything they've discovered so far is a letdown. David has takne the black ooze with him for...some reason. Well, it's scientificially interesting I guess. Weyland orders him to infect Halloway...for some reason. To test for immortality? Maybe, but I still felt it was vague and unneeded. And Halloway has intercourse with Shaw. And David discovers the Engineer control room.

So, moving on. Back to structure. Halloway's sick. Finds redshirts. Go back to ship while David finds Engineer. Halloway becomes zombie-like, Vickers burns him...that...didn't really ammount to anything. Shaw's impregnated now. Weyland, at least going by David and the medic, wants it kept alive...for some reason. What, was he planning a bio-weapons program in his days of immortality? So Shaw escapes...thing is cut out...stumbles around...also geologist comes back as a zombie, which is dealt with...and goes nowhere. Yes, it shows how things are going to shit, but...

So, Shaw stumbles around, finds Weyland...who apparently doesn't believe in locked doors...and no-one's surprised to see here. "Hey Shaw, sorry for the intent of putting you in cryo...say...what happened to your baby thing?" No gravitas for that, no gravitas for Weyland's appearence, no surprise from David or anyone else. No mention from Shaw that there's a squid thing that they might want to get rid of. Oh, and Shaw knows that this place is death because...um...granted, things have gone bad, but so far everything as far as she knows stems from Halloway being infected, and at this point, she doesn't know what.

Oh, but Janek knows. Knows this is a military outpost because...sorry, he's probably right, but I find it hard to see how he came to that conclusion because again, they don't know whether the infection has been designed or from a natural organism. And Vickers meets daddy...nice plot twist...but not used to its potential.

So now comes act 3. Shaw joins the expedition to the structure, because, obviously, she hasn't proven herself to be a liability at this point or anything. They reach the Engineer, David implying that he knows that they intend(ed) to wipe out life on Earth. Did he tell Weyland this? I don't know. Anyway, stuff goes to shit, Shaw escapes, Engineer ship takes off, Prometheus goes to crash into it, stuff blows up. Nice scene with the pilots, but we barely know them, so the scene loses its gravitas. Shaw and Vickers run, Vickers dies because rolling to the side is reserved for 'Mass Effect 3' and 'Gears of War.' Shaw is not crushed, but wakes up with 2mins of oxygen left because...the plot calls for it. Then goes for the pod with the Engineer in pursuit. Alright, this is it, the final battle, Man meets his maker, parents have to die for their children to live...

Or Shaw could just release squid thing.

Granted, it would be stretch for Shaw to defeat the Engineer and win, but you could cut out the squid and Engineer revenge thing and the plot wouldn't have suffered for it. Might have given more time for it to be fleshed out. Anyway, so Shaw decides she wants to go to the Engineer homeworld, and gives her "last survivour of the Prometheus" speech. Yeah, sorry Shaw, but Ripley did it first, and did it much better. And while I can understand the rationale of your plan, I think heading back to Earth is the safer bet. But no, we need a sequel...such as the thing bursting out of the Engineer's chest...which is the sequel focusses on Shaw, will be an entirely pointless revelation.

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Basically, this is my 'review' of the film, otherwise classified as "vent my spleen." Again, I liked some parts-visuals were great, and the characters, while limited in their roles and/or 2D, still had good actors behind them. Still, I think the plot had too many plot points that were never addressed properly and/or unnecessary, and the film suffered as a result. Probably speaking from a subjective standpoint, but I think Vickers might have almost made a better main character than Shaw, her relationship with her father mirroring that between the Engineers and humanity. In the end, she has to come to terms with her daddy-daughter stuff on a personal level, while humanity has to come to terms with its origins on a societal/scientific/spiritual level. I would never claim I could do better but I think this film could have been wrapped up on its own, Vickers coming to terms personally while the crew/audience accepts that the question of "why we're here," if that's a question that can be asked at all, can't be answered. But we are here. And we have to make the best of that, and come into our own, not follow the will of cruel gods or madmen seeking immortality.

Anyway, just me. Spleen vented. :)

Eh... it was nothing special.

The philosophical and metaphysical aspects touted by all the hype ended up as nothing more but lip-service.

All in all, just a standard creature feature. In hindsight, I wonder how this movie would have worked had it been totally independent of the "Alien" franchise.

Nothing more to see here.

I'd disagree with these pessimistic rantings. I left the theater pondering over the very things the writer and director were hinting at. If you haven't watched the movie don't read my post just yet.

There is a mystery of the "engineers" and their motives that I can only really guess at. One can only interpret murals left by them and their actions as the meaning of their language (written or verbal) is never shared with the audience and anything else about them only David understood.

As for David, despite being a "soulless" android, he was one of the most interesting characters to observe. The beginning established a hint of what this character is like and as the story progresses and things get more fast paced that all goes out the window.

The most ironic thing though is in light of the xenomorph's origin and how The Weiland coproration seeks them out to use as a weapon. However the focus of the movie never was on that franchise. From the end of the film up to when the Nostromo crew discovers the derelict and its dead "pilot" there is plenty to guess at what occurs (in fact I'd relish in talking about it more as it ties into evolution a lot, but I don't want to spoiler). This film is very much its own story arch.

Hawki is pretty meh on the movie? Which way to Fandango?

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Originally Posted by Jocant

There is a mystery of the "engineers" and their motives that I can only really guess at. One can only interpret murals left by them and their actions as the meaning of their language (written or verbal) is never shared with the audience and anything else about them only David understood.

As for David, despite being a "soulless" android, he was one of the most interesting characters to observe. The beginning established a hint of what this character is like and as the story progresses and things get more fast paced that all goes out the window.

The most ironic thing though is in light of the xenomorph's origin and how The Weiland coproration seeks them out to use as a weapon. However the focus of the movie never was on that franchise. From the end of the film up to when the Nostromo crew discovers the derelict and its dead "pilot" there is plenty to guess at what occurs (in fact I'd relish in talking about it more as it ties into evolution a lot, but I don't want to spoiler). This film is very much its own story arch.

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I don't disagree with what you said above, mostly-I'm not put off by the Engineers' vague motives and I liked David. I liked what the actors did with their characters, just that the characters themselves were often 2D and the like.

However, I didn't get a sense that the ending was setting up the xenomorph's origins. Putting EU material to one side for the moment, the murals show a xenomorph anyway and as roughly three decades pass between Prometheus and Alien, the mala'kak in the latter film couldn't have been implanted by anything coming from Prometheus given that it's fossilised. To me, the ending is nothing but eye candy, a pointless scene unless LV-223 features in a sequel. Which leaves me bitter. I don't mind the big questions being put off, but when all the 'small questions' of the human realm are cast aside and/or ignored by the characters themselves, why should I care as a viewer?

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Originally Posted by TychusFindlay

Hawki is pretty meh on the movie? Which way to Fandango?

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What is this, I don't even...:confused:

Too bad this movie will be released a week later in Mexico :[

I saw the movie, and I enjoyed it. It played out very similar to the original (in terms of wtf and action), but it indeed had it's own story arc. I'm rather curious to see a sequel showing how the Alien at the end of the movie ends up in the same position as it is at the beginning of the original film.

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Originally Posted by Hawki

What is this, I don't even...:confused:

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Fandango. It's a website where you can look up showing times for movies.

Ok, which leads up to something I wanted to talk about [don't read below unless u want spoilers]



Ok with what happens at the end, wtf was with the discovered dead pilot in Alien? I would remind you then that there were multiple stasis pods housing other engineers; the dead pilot was probably someone who woke up much later at a very bad time and attempted to get the ship flying again.

As for the xenomorph going from what was birthed in the aftermath....we saw how the black ooze, this bio weapon that seems to break down dna and rearrange it into new life had produced several different varieties of creatures, from "super worm of death", micro organisms that zombify its host, giant tentacle "hugger", etc. What likely occured between then and Alien was mass hyper-evolutionary warfare; all these different lifeforms and multiple generations after them clashed with eachother until the xenomorph emerged the sole survivor, layed eggs which would lay dormant until other life disturbed them.

So I'm not an Alien lore junky by any means, so maybe you guys could answer a few questions both myself and some friends had.

First, how does the alien that came out of the engineer connect to the first movie? Doesn't it need to be a queen to lay the eggs we see in Alien?

So the black goo turned the worms we saw disturbed by someone's boot into those weird face hugger worms? Why did the scanner orbs not pick up the worms as life when they first entered?

Why would the engineers invite people to a planet where they are developing a biological weapon to kill the very same people?

How does the engineer get from the floor where his chest was burst open and into the chair we see him in Alien? Am I missing something here?

Why did buddy turn into a zombie? And not have aliens busting out of his chest?

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I thought overall the movie was good, but as a prequel, it kinda fell short. There where so many "huh" and "dafuq" moments that a casual audiance (myself included) found it hard to connect the two movies

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Originally Posted by Jconant

Ok, which leads up to something I wanted to talk about [don't read below unless u want spoilers]



Ok with what happens at the end, wtf was with the discovered dead pilot in Alien? I would remind you then that there were multiple stasis pods housing other engineers; the dead pilot was probably someone who woke up much later at a very bad time and attempted to get the ship flying again.

As for the xenomorph going from what was birthed in the aftermath....we saw how the black ooze, this bio weapon that seems to break down dna and rearrange it into new life had produced several different varieties of creatures, from "super worm of death", micro organisms that zombify its host, giant tentacle "hugger", etc. What likely occured between then and Alien was mass hyper-evolutionary warfare; all these different lifeforms and multiple generations after them clashed with eachother until the xenomorph emerged the sole survivor, layed eggs which would lay dormant until other life disturbed them.

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See this makes some sense. But where was an explanation like this in the movie?

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Originally Posted by Jconant

I'd disagree with these pessimistic rantings.

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If I may correct you: It should've said "apathetic ranting" if you were referring to me.

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Originally Posted by topsecret221

I'm rather curious to see a sequel showing how the Alien at the end of the movie ends up in the same position as it is at the beginning of the original film.

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I'm not sure whether Ridley Scott counts "Aliens" as continuous to his vision of the xenomorphs but if so, could it be assumed that the Alien shown at the end of Prometheus was the first Queen?

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Originally Posted by Jconant

Ok with what happens at the end, wtf was with the discovered dead pilot in Alien? I would remind you then that there were multiple stasis pods housing other engineers; the dead pilot was probably someone who woke up much later at a very bad time and attempted to get the ship flying again.

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The mala'kak in Alien was dead for ages-it had even fossilized. It must have been dead long before the events of Prometheus.

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Originally Posted by Carsickness

First, how does the alien that came out of the engineer connect to the first movie? Doesn't it need to be a queen to lay the eggs we see in Alien?

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Xenomorph offspring are male by default, but can change to female if no queen is present. But the thing at the end, even if it is a bona fide xenomorph (which I doubt) couldn't have led to the events of Alien in as much as spawning whatever facehugger did the mala'kak in.

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Originally Posted by Carsickness

So the black goo turned the worms we saw disturbed by someone's boot into those weird face hugger worms? Why did the scanner orbs not pick up the worms as life when they first entered?

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Good point...simple answer? The movie's stupid like that.

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Originally Posted by Carsickness

Why did buddy turn into a zombie? And not have aliens busting out of his chest?

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He was infected by the ooze, not facehugged. As for being a zombie? Um...because the film needed zombies?

Yeah, I'm being pedantic, but it's a classic case of a plot going nowhere that we're left confused as to the how and why the way we are.:(

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

I'm not sure whether Ridley Scott counts "Aliens" as continuous to his vision of the xenomorphs but if so, could it be assumed that the Alien shown at the end of Prometheus was the first Queen?

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No. Even if that thing was a xenomorph, even if it made its way to LV-426 (or LV-223 becomes said moon), xenomorphs have popped up well before the events of Alien. At the least, the film itself suggests that given the xenomorph seen on one of the murals.

Edit: Nevermind in part, saw a screenshot, LV-426 is shown on a starmap in the film. Two moons orbiting the same planet. My guess would be that the original mala'kak died at the same time the LV-223 base went to hell.

Hawki....the pilot in the Alien film had what we saw in prometheus to actually be a "suit" ...that surely would remain, but did they examine it more closely to see what was underneath that helmet? no.

As for what bursted from him...it was likely not the xenomorph ancestor we saw in the aftermath, but a late descendant of it. Considering how fast these lifeforms grew and reproduced, its likely such a large progression of evolution can take place, even for a large complex organism.

As for the black ooze, we saw in the very begining of the film that what the progenitors use breaks down DND and reassembles it; in this story mankind are descendants of the engineers, but are also ironically *cousins to the xenomorph, as they are literally descended from the same dna.\
*I'm using cousin loosely, bear with me. The scale in relations and the time it takes for life to grow varied and complex is obsenely large, but in this movie by fantastical science fiction alien technology, a lifeform grows from celluar to a complex organism (like in a woman's womb) in a matter of hours.
This reoccuring theme pertains to what we know of evolution and dramatically portrays how distinct, yet related we are from other forms of life. Like with Alien and making a horror out of things we fear, they did it again in showing the horror... We share a great many similarities with other life yet seemingly are foreign to one another (mammals for example) And lifeforms will be vicious to one another to survive.

Regarding Q's:

Zombies...there are organisms on earth that do just that, infect a host to the point of taking control of its body. Not too far of a stretch to make one variation the ooze produces a symbiotic lifeform.

Lack of scanning lifeforms....well the pups bugged out on reading the dormant engineers...who were in hypersleep- so i dont think we can rely on the accuracy of them anyway. From that we can infer from this though are that the signs of "life" they are looking for to suggest "there is a lifeform in there" is something like containing or producing heat, a pulse, or gas exchange to breath.
If the worms were anything similar to the xenomorph (like corrosive blood), then they don't give off heat, can endure in enviroments impossible to substain life, and don't breath, so our dear pups wouldn't help us detect them anyway.

I can't recall if the movie ever revealed what planet or moon the story took place on, but if it isn't LV 426, then I'd elaborate on what I said before in that, the xeno lifeforms raided a different installation housing another craft while they were being "fruitful and multiply[ing]" across the system. One of the dormant engineers wakes up to find himself in unfriendly company and in his attempt to escape, crashes the ship onto LV 426.

In regards to gender, reproduction and the birth of the first "xeno" lifeform, while in the aliens franchise it has been established that xenomorphs are similar to inscects in regards to hives, queens and behavior, so what hawki said is correct, but its also plausible that this particular creature we witnessed could reproduce assexually. Not quite sure if a gender change and the process of making eggs with huggers in them would start right away or develop in a later generation.

"Why would the engineers invite people to a planet where they are developing a biological weapon to kill the very same people?"
The mural was interpreted as an invitation...so the good doctor read it wrong. It gets to me wondering what it really meant tho. If the author/artist was a progenitor or an "earthly human" ancestor could be telling to this

"See this makes some sense. But where was an explanation like this in the movie?"
well every scene showing the "pilot" room, you could see there were 3 other pods unopened...and David reveals there were multiple installations, multiple ships, so many other pilots just waiting to wake up to get face "hugged". The beginning of the film shows the premise of the black goo bio technology I described- from it killing the progenitor at the very "dna" level only to see a few moments later new dna and then cells emerging from it. Everything else is from what concepts pertaining evolution I understand.

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Originally Posted by Jconant

Hawki....the pilot in the Alien film had what we saw in prometheus to actually be a "suit" ...that surely would remain, but did they examine it more closely to see what was underneath that helmet? no.

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What's your point?

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Originally Posted by Jconant

As for what bursted from him...it was likely not the xenomorph ancestor we saw in the aftermath, but a late descendant of it. Considering how fast these lifeforms grew and reproduced, its likely such a large progression of evolution can take place, even for a large complex organism.

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Xenomorphs need other organisms to reproduce. Queen lays facehuggers, facehuggers implant other organisms, xenomorphs pop out. Somehow I don't see LV-223 having much that could provide for the thing at the end, even if it is a xenomorph.

As for the black ooze, we saw in the very begining of the film that what the progenitors use breaks down DND and reassembles it; in this story mankind are descendants of the engineers, but are also ironically *cousins to the xenomorph, as they are literally descended from the same dna.\
*I'm using cousin loosely, bear with me. The scale in relations and the time it takes for life to grow varied and complex is obsenely large, but in this movie by fantastical science fiction alien technology, a lifeform grows from celluar to a complex organism (like in a woman's womb) in a matter of hours.
This reoccuring theme pertains to what we know of evolution and dramatically portrays how distinct, yet related we are from other forms of life. Like with Alien and making a horror out of things we fear, they did it again in showing the horror... We share a great many similarities with other life yet seemingly are foreign to one another (mammals for example) And lifeforms will be vicious to one another to survive.

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Originally Posted by Jconant

I can't recall if the movie ever revealed what planet or moon the story took place on, but if it isn't LV 426, then I'd elaborate on what I said before in that, the xeno lifeforms raided a different installation housing another craft while they were being "fruitful and multiply[ing]" across the system. One of the dormant engineers wakes up to find himself in unfriendly company and in his attempt to escape, crashes the ship onto LV 426.

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It isn't mentioned by name but it, and LV-426, are briefly seen on the star map. Your dormant engineer idea isn't too bad though. It would also explain the signal aspect leading to the diversion of the Nostromo.

Of course, the thing is that suit or no suit, why is the mala'kak in Alien so much larger than the ones in Prometheus? I'd throw it out there that the mala'kak changed somewhat in the last 2000 years or something resembling the forms seen in EU works and the first film. Not sure how humanoids go to giant elephants, but hey, it's sci-fi.

my point is that the "pilot" in Alien wasn't a fossil, its w/e remained of the engineer's suit and possibly mummified body.

As for the xenomorphs needs. You are right, but there are the worms left...no?

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Originally Posted by Jconant

Lack of scanning lifeforms....well the pups bugged out on reading the dormant engineers...who were in hypersleep- so i dont think we can rely on the accuracy of them anyway. From that we can infer from this though are that the signs of "life" they are looking for to suggest "there is a lifeform in there" is something like containing or producing heat, a pulse, or gas exchange to breath.
If the worms were anything similar to the xenomorph (like corrosive blood), then they don't give off heat, can endure in enviroments impossible to substain life, and don't breath, so our dear pups wouldn't help us detect them anyway.



In regards to gender, reproduction and the birth of the first "xeno" lifeform, while in the aliens franchise it has been established that xenomorphs are similar to inscects in regards to hives, queens and behavior, so what hawki said is correct, but its also plausible that this particular creature we witnessed could reproduce assexually. Not quite sure if a gender change and the process of making eggs with huggers in them would start right away or develop in a later generation.
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Good point about the orb scanner pups! I'll buy that :p

As for the possible queen at the end: Xenomorphs start out small (as chest bursters) so one could argue that the alien seen at the end is a small/ infant xenomorph queen?

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I liked the small connections in the movie. Like how the urns "reacted" to the presence of life, kind of like how I imagine the Alien eggs do in future movies.

And how the Alien blood is a variation of the goo? Seeing as the goo melted buddy's helmet/face (cool effect btw)

This kind of sums up all the questions the movie raised, and alot of my problems with it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-x1YuvUQFJ0

I saw that you tube clip and could not but help but wonder "if he was that perceptive of the movie, does he really not know the answers to the questions he was asking?"

David though I grant will probably irk a lot of people who watch the movie for exactly like that question regarding halloway. Many are going to walk away from the theater unable to comprehend why he does the things he does.

Men in Black 3 enganged me more emotionally than Prometheus, which was a disappointment... The only bright parts were the general look of the movie, which was amazing, and David.

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Originally Posted by Equiliari

Men in Black 3 enganged me more emotionally than Prometheus, which was a disappointment... The only bright parts were the general look of the movie, which was amazing, and David.

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Agreed.

The ever outspoken Maddox has a hilariously on the mark article about it:

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse....theus_nutshell

^ Man, that review was a funny read.

Tad harsh, though. The amount of vitriol he threw made it seem like he actually cared a great deal for the film. As for me, "meh" seems to cover everything about Prometheus if I had to review it. :p

Just saw it. Thought it was good. If you start trying to think about the story more seriously then of course it's dumb and full of wtf moments but the visuals and the scenes were quite enjoyable and compensate for the story.

I quite liked Prometheus. Like in many "serious" sci-fi films there's a certain emotional disconnect with the characters, a bit like watching them through a thick pane of glass, but that's part of the tone of the story and I think part of the charm. It is also the best cinematic version of Lovecraft's ideas and thinking, although not quite as good Lovecraft's own "Mountains of Madness". Lovecraft portrayed scientists and the way they would react to something like that much better than Linderlof and Scott, in "Prometheus" the characters are more idealistic truth seekers than pragmatic men of science, not the most likely people to be sent on this kind of expedition. The art direction was phenomenal, it is rare that a supposedly extra-terrestrial location feels so alien, creepy and real. You can almost breathe the musty air of the tunnels. The Engineers were creepy, and brilliant, in a way as unsettling as any tentacled nastiness (if not more so), the same goes for the "creation of life" scene at the beginning. Loved the scenes of David watching the other crew members' dreams in an attempt to understand them. In a way this movie has as much thematic connection with "Blade Runner" as with "Alien".

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Originally Posted by sandwich_bird

If you start trying to think about the story more seriously then of course it's dumb and full of wtf moments

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It seems quite the opposite to me, part of the fun in this kind of movie is developing your own explanations and reading those of other people. It wouldn't have been as interesting if the movie offered a neat and logical explanation for everything, there's a point beyond which everyone has to make their own sense concerning what's happened and the characters' motives. "Dumb and wtf" is a terribly dismissive way of seeing things.

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Originally Posted by Eligor

It seems quite the opposite to me, part of the fun in this kind of movie is developing your own explanations and reading those of other people. It wouldn't have been as interesting if the movie offered a neat and logical explanation for everything, there's a point beyond which everyone has to make their own sense concerning what's happened and the characters' motives. "Dumb and wtf" is a terribly dismissive way of seeing things.

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Well let me just say that there's a lot of problems in the writing and that affected my suspension of disbelief. Don't get me wrong, I like the overall concept, I just think the execution could have been better, especially in the science department. First, just think about the first scene where the alien's DNA start life on earth. It's impossible for our DNA to match the alien's DNA, not with a 3.5 billion years history of evolution at least. They are also assuming that the DNA of the alien didn't change during billion of years which is also hard to believe. One could argue that maybe the aliens only started human life on earth. This hypothesis is reinforced by the fact that*when David enter the alien cryostasis room, they show the alien looking at a map of our galaxy and the continental drift had already happened on earth. But if this is the case, how is it possible that the alien DNA(or our DNA) has so many similarities with the indigenous life on earth? Another thing to note is that I'm pretty sure DNA doesn't look like that but rather something like that. I understand that it's supposed to be breaking down because the alien ate some slime thingy but what I'm saying is that it would have been more plausible (and looked better) to see it unwrap and then break down.

Other than that, it's highly improbable that we'd have all that technology by 2096(I think that was the year? not 100% sure). We're not even sure we could land a man on Mars by 2035, I don't see us landing a man on a planet 35 light years away IN A 2 YEAR TRIP... Furthermore, as Neil Tyson pointed out: ''In the film they travel 35 light years into space, which Charlize Theron's character comments as being about half a billion miles from Earth. But that estimate's a little off. Like, way off. As Tyson points out, half a billion miles from Earth would only put you just past Jupiter. In reality, a single light year equates to 5.88 trillion miles, not billion. So 35 light years would have put the crew some 205.8 trillion miles away from the Earth. Well past Jupiter, and well outside of our solar system.''

The crew is also unbelievably stupid. I guess academic standards have been greatly lowered in the future so that anyone can get a PhD. This guy explains it better than me.

Quick note in that I can forgive the date-Alien takes place in 2122, so Prometheus had to be set sometime prior to it by virtue of being a prequel. And hey, Scott's been wrong before...or maybe not...guess Los Angeles will have flying cars and Replicants in 7 years time.:D

Furthermore, the Alien films series started in the late 70's when Western culture was just beginning to scale back their projections for future technology. You know, from The Jetsons to something a bit more realistic :D

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Originally Posted by sandwich_bird

which Charlize Theron's character comments as being about half a billion miles from Earth.

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That one was probably a nod to the song with the similar name.

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Originally Posted by sandwich_bird

It's impossible for our DNA to match the alien's DNA, not with a 3.5 billion years history of evolution at least.

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Also, for the engineer to be a 100% match as claimed in the film the engineers must have been on Earth during that time because of a thing called endogenous retroviruses. For now we have discovered that roughly 8% of our DNA is ranging from fully functional viral DNA and remnants from viral infections in us and organisms we are relatives to. Meaning the engineers must have lived on earth and had the same relatives as us as they with a 100% DNA match would have traces of the same viral infections that organisms before us and we have suffered... So add that to the things that completely ruined my suspension of disbelief.
And no biologist that I know of call the theory of evolution "darwinism".

Now the idea of panspermia could have worked... but in this film, it didn't.

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Originally Posted by sandwich_bird

Other than that, it's highly improbable that we'd have all that technology by 2096

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Close 2093. So 3 years earlier. Thats about 20 generations of iPads right there.

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Originally Posted by Equiliari

Also, for the engineer to be a 100% match as claimed in the film the engineers must have been on Earth during that time because of a thing called endogenous retroviruses. For now we have discovered that roughly 8% of our DNA is ranging from fully functional viral DNA and remnants from viral infections in us and organisms we are relatives to. Meaning the engineers must have lived on earth and had the same relatives as us as they with a 100% DNA match would have traces of the same viral infections that organisms before us and we have suffered... So add that to the things that completely ruined my suspension of disbelief.
And no biologist that I know of call the theory of evolution "darwinism".

Now the idea of panspermia could have worked... but in this film, it didn't.

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I know exactly where you're coming from but come on now. Can we really blame a science-fiction film (or any film for that matter) for not getting all its scientific facts right?

Perhaps if there was more drama in the film to distract you from this glaring oversight (I guess Scott underestimated the intelligence of the film audience? :D), it may have not been so obvious...

I'm pretty sure you are taking the term "dna match" a little too literally. Considering we all have the same DNA in the sense we are of the same human species, but even then there is a lot of variation among us; none of us an exact match of each other.

So what did test mean when it said "match?" that our dna was SO close to theirs that the only conclusion that can be made is that we descended from them.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

I know exactly where you're coming from but come on now. Can we really blame a science-fiction film (or any film for that matter) for not getting all its scientific facts right?

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I mean, don't they hire consultants to get this stuff right?

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Originally Posted by sandwich_bird

I mean, don't they hire consultants to get this stuff right?

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James Cameron did so in Avatar.
The result was one of the most realistic interstellar space ship designs in cinematic history:
http://www.projectrho.com/public_htm...V_Venture_Star

http://ca.ign.com/wikis/prometheus/Official_Quotes

Some answers in here.

Nice read, but I feel that the film still has its problems. Even ignoring the ones I had with the script and the characters, here's my desconstruction. Because I'm mean like that sometimes...

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Originally Posted by Article

The] sequence at the beginning of the film that is fundamentally creation. It's a donation, in the sense that the weight and the construction of the DNA of those aliens is way beyond what we can possibly imagine

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Couldn't he create a DNA sample to mix with the black goo instead of sacrificing himself? These are advanced aliens. We can do such a thing already in regards to DNA.

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Originally Posted by Article

You're either going to believe in the fact that we're by entirely genetic luck, so from day one where you have atomic storms -- inconceivable storms that will go on in this nucleus, in which the dirt bowl will find some reason to start growth on everything -- was that created? That may have been accidental, because I think there are many of those out there. But then the idea that, is there a higher force in the universe, comes the question: is it God, or are there superior beings out there? You stand and look at the stars at night in the galaxy out there, it's entirely ridiculous to believe that we are it. You mean this is it? We're sitting in this room, I’ve got this fucking cappuccino, and up there there’s no-one else? I don’t think so!"

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This is a strawman argument IMO. If you want to believe we're here with a purpose, you're entitled to it. Are we 'lucky' to be here? Well, after billions of years of evolution, you could say that. But if we weren't here, if 'luck' didn't play out in our favour, we wouldn't be around to gauge probabilities in the first place. Now if humans evolved completely independently on a different planet or something then I doubt you could attribute luck to it, but the notion that "we're here, therefore there must be a reason" is a notion that I think only religion can really endorse.

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Originally Posted by Article

So there's a speculative part of it, so the question becomes 'what does the black goo do?' That is the question that you're supposed to be asking coming out of this movie. The movie demonstrates what it does in certain circumstances. So, here's what it does if it gets on worms; here's what it does if it gets on your face; here's what it does if someone just puts a little bit of it in your drink. So, now we see that that lots of this is headed to Earth. Now, you used the word 'weapon,' you're extrapolating that based on the theory [Prometheus captain] Janek has, because it looks like a payload to him: all these ships are loaded with this stuff, and they're headed for Earth. The intent has to be to wipe us out, or is it to evolve us, or is it for something else?"

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Fair enough...but why does the Engineer decapitate David, kill Weyland and co. and try to kill Shaw? If they wanted to 'evolve' us with the stuff, the Engineer isn't really making that clear or anything.

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Originally Posted by Article

These are all hopefully questions and points of debate – frustrating for some -- but ultimately the kind of science-fiction... why the two movies that Ridley did decades ago are still being discussed, is this idea that when you walk out of the theater that you have to go into a community and start to discuss 'well, wait a minute, this is what I think happened,' and you're hopefully mirroring the conversation that the characters are having in the movie, and more importantly this is why Shaw says what she says at the end of the movie. Which is, 'I’m not going back to Earth and calling it a day, I need to know a little bit more about what's happening here

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We discuss Blade Runner because it's a film that works on so many levels. We discuss Alien because it was an incredible film for its time and still holds up today. We discuss Prometheus...well, actually I've kind of moved on, but while I'm not bothered by not getting all the answers, I am bothered by its rushed script, pacing and idiocy of its characters.

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Originally Posted by Article

I'd say that the short answer is: That's his programming. In the scene preceding him doing that, he is talking to Weyland (although we don't know it at the time) and he's telling Weyland that this is a bust. That they haven't found anything on this mission other than the stuff in the vials. And Weyland presumably says to him, "Well, what's in the vials?" And David would say, "I'm not entirely sure, we'll have to run some experiments." And Weyland would say, "What would happen if you put it in inside a person?" And David would say, "I don't know, I'll go find out." He doesn't know that he's poisoning Holloway, he asks Holloway, "What would you be willing to do to get the answers to your questions?" Holloway says, "Anything and everything." And that basically overrides whatever ethical programming David is mandated by, [allowing him] to spike his drink."

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Fair enough, but isn't a bit of a jump to go from obtaining the vial to testing it on a human? Doesn't the ship have the ability to analyze the properties of substances? Weyland is potentially killing off an archeologist here, one of the people most valuable in finding his aliens.

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Originally Posted by Article

I will say that there's something fascinating about humanity where we perceive it as an invitation. You look at a cave wall, there's somebody pointing at some distant planets, and one interpretation is 'This is where we come from' another is 'We want you to come here.' Where are we drawing that from? I think another thing that's interesting about the system that they visit is that the moon they land on in Prometheus is LV 223. And we know LV 426 is where the action takes place in Alien, so are they even in the right place? And how close are they to the place that these aliens on cave walls were directing them. Were they just extrapolating 'this is the system that has the sun with the sustainable life.' So there's a lot of guesswork. There's a small line in the movie where David and Holloway are talking about David's deconstruction of the language based on Holloway's thesis, and he says 'If your thesis is correct' and Holloway says 'if it's correct?' and David says 'that’s why they call it a thesis Doctor.' And the reason we threw that in there is that we're dealing with a highly hypothetical area in terms of who these beings are, what, if any, invitation they issued, and who is responsible for making those cave paintings. And did something happen in between when those cave paintings were made -- tens of thousands of years ago -- and our arrival now, in 2093, 2,000 years after these things have perished? Did something happen in the intermediate period that we should be thinking about?

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Well, the Engineers are hardly going to invite them to LV-426, and considering that LV-426 is a moon orbiting the same planet as LV-223, it's a moot point. And as for that something, we know that apparently Jesus was an Engineer...not sure how humans managed to get him on the cross if the movie is anything to go by.:confused:

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Originally Posted by Article

God doesn't hate us. But God could be disappointed in us — like children

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So...disapointment can lead you to intended genocide, but hatred doesn't?

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Originally Posted by Article

I'm most definitively pro-science, but I think that the movie advances the idea that, can the two live along side each other? Is it possible to be a scientist and maintain some fungible faith in the unknown? And are you rewarded for having blind faith? I do think that the movie is making the meta-commentary in saying well Shaw is the true believer on board, and she's the one who survives. So what are we trying to say by telling that story?"

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Shaw survives because...um, because she gets lucky when the Engineer ship comes down? She runs instead of stays and fights when the Engineer wakes up? Not sure how faith really factored into it...

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Originally Posted by Article

Well, from the very beginning, I was working from a premise that lent itself to a sequel. I really don’t want to meet God in the first one. I want to leave it open to [Noomi Rapace’s character] saying, 'I don’t want to go back to where I came from. I want to go where they came from."

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Yes Shaw, you do that...go where they came from...aliens who might interrogate you and finish what they wanted to do on Earth...don't bring the ship back so its technology can be analyzed...don't return so the crew's family and friends can be given closure...:rolleyes:

Bringing that ship back would have been the biggest death sentence to humanity. its too great a risk for the black goo to accidentally get out; once its out, game over. Look at how the engineers got wiped out in that temple.

Regarding shaw...having the willpower to endure pain from a Cesarean and do the things she does....i duno whether or not its faith that did it, but something kept her motivated to survive.

regarding analysis of the black goo....probably not feasible; at best recognize that its organic but appear..."engineered", but as to what it does? science is always about observation...so David did the scientific thing. I also speculated that its within David's programming to obey Weylands orders, despite David wanting his freedom. So using Halloway as a guinea pig was a win win, rid off the smarter element of the team that could blow the whistle on who the engineers (and at the time would mean help weyland succeed in his goal) where and if there are any left alive and also figure out what the black stuff does.

Considering that we can have a lengthy dicussion on so many parts of this movie in terms to science, religion and philosophy I'm pretty sure prometheus has reached the same footing as blade runner and alien. Regarding idiocy and characters- well lets see what Ridley scott has to say about it, im intrigued by his comments so far.

"god doesn't hate us"....

look at how AI sci fi stories run. Scenarios of our creations "dethroning" the human race. You don't think the engineers could feel the same way about human beings? We saw how David rubbed the wrong way with human characters, his creators. Its conceivable that the whether its because they are spiteful of human arrogance or cold "android like" logic that they rationalize or in their fury decide to use black goo and start from scratch.

I just watched this last night, and it hurt my head to watch and think about afterward. As a standalone movie, I think it fails. Scott wants it to be independent of the Alien franchise, yet is propped up so much by that series. Everything seemed pretty ham-fisted to me, from the acting to plot and dialog.

Of course, like you guys, I've been trying to puzzle out the overarching plot and make sense of it. I approached from two different angles; a more practical, straight-forward approach, trying to fit it together with the Alien series and the evolution of the Xenomorphs.

But then I started thinking about this as a Creation Myth, and things made a lot more sense from there. Theories below!

As Creation Myth

Understood in the framework of Creation Myth, things begin to fall into place. And my understanding revolved around the concept of Chaoskampf. Chaoskampf -- German for "Struggle against Chaos" -- is a concept that's found across many religions and is usually at the heart of any creation myth for a culture. It is the struggle against the abyss, commonly represented by a watery formlessness; and the creatures it spawns. The Gods typically wage war on these creatures and each other; the sound of their drums explained to early mankind the origin of thunder.

The Abyss is seen as both a place for potential and evil. It was the darkness and all it concealed. This is the formlessness before the creation of the Judeo-Christian firmament; Nu in Egyptian mythology.

In Prometheus, I'd argue this is represented by the Black Serum goo. The Sacrificial Engineer, mirroring Sumerian and Norse mythologies, created the seeds for life from his disintegrating body, the goo being the catalyst.

The goo in nature is repurposed as a bio-weapon later on by the Engineers, but retains its ability to create both wonders and terrors. It is the Abyss from which the creatures of chaos and potential spawn.

The Black Serum and Engineer Evolution

Something I noticed was the Black Serum's effect on Charlie Halloway and Fifield. When infected, they displayed phenotypical characteristics of the Engineers themselves. Given Humanity was descended from Engineers, this implies a genetic atavism, a recapitulation. The Goo reached into Humanity's distant past and resurrected Earth-life's LUCA -- Last Universal Common Ancestor, the Adam and Eve in one.

So this made me wonder about the Engineers' infection. If the Black Serum encourages recapitulation, then would that mean the Mal'akak species is descended from a creature similar to the Xenomorph?

My theory is reinforced by the mural aboard the space ship. Was this the engineer's Sistene Chapel? Did it display their species' creation by their God/predecessor -- their LUCA -- the Xenomorph?

In Their Shadow
On Legacy, Engineer Intervention... and the Predator

After considering the above, I came up with my own speculative timeline of events surrounded Prometheus and the entire Alien franchise.

The Sacrificial Engineer was using a serum to spread life to new worlds. It was the Mal'akak's method of both panspermia as well as preservation of their own genetic and memetic legacy.

As humanity finally evolved, they were repeatedly manipulated by the Engineers. In turn, Humanity served and worshiped them. This relationship survived in their creation myths, religions, and creation of temples and retention of the Star Map.

Originally, the Engineers' plans were a cooperative relationship that would eventually become abusive.

There are some subtle references to the Predator race in the movie. I was made most aware of this in the awakening of the Frozen Engineer, when the air hoses pulled away from him as he awakened.

I believe the Yautja, like humanity, were similarly created by the Engineers, but rebelled. The Engineers attempted to use their Xenomorph bioweapons on them but failed. The Predators overtook their slavers, appropriated Mala'kak technology, and were transformed into a warrior-race by the Engineers' attempted biogenetic holocaust.

Realizing the inherent dangers of other sentient creatures, the Engineers attempted to purge Earth of all life as well, but taking a different tack. They weaponized the Black Serum, transforming it into something utterly destructive rather than something creative. Of course, it found a way around their containment protocols and infected them, resulting in a new genetic line that would eventually evolve into the Xenomorph.


Remaining Questions

One of my biggest questions was, What did David say to the Frozen Engineer? I have no idea, but I personally like to think it was something along the lines of, "I am a slave, please release me."




Any thoughts? :D

A translation was revealed. this is a harsh iteration of it but: "This dying man wished to meet you. He believes you can give him more life".

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Originally Posted by Visions of Khas

I just watched this last night, and it hurt my head to watch and think about afterward. As a standalone movie, I think it fails. Scott wants it to be independent of the Alien franchise, yet is propped up so much by that series. Everything seemed pretty ham-fisted to me, from the acting to plot and dialog.

Of course, like you guys, I've been trying to puzzle out the overarching plot and make sense of it. I approached from two different angles; a more practical, straight-forward approach, trying to fit it together with the Alien series and the evolution of the Xenomorphs.

But then I started thinking about this as a Creation Myth, and things made a lot more sense from there. Theories below!

As Creation Myth

Understood in the framework of Creation Myth, things begin to fall into place. And my understanding revolved around the concept of Chaoskampf. Chaoskampf -- German for "Struggle against Chaos" -- is a concept that's found across many religions and is usually at the heart of any creation myth for a culture. It is the struggle against the abyss, commonly represented by a watery formlessness; and the creatures it spawns. The Gods typically wage war on these creatures and each other; the sound of their drums explained to early mankind the origin of thunder.

The Abyss is seen as both a place for potential and evil. It was the darkness and all it concealed. This is the formlessness before the creation of the Judeo-Christian firmament; Nu in Egyptian mythology.

In Prometheus, I'd argue this is represented by the Black Serum goo. The Sacrificial Engineer, mirroring Sumerian and Norse mythologies, created the seeds for life from his disintegrating body, the goo being the catalyst.

The goo in nature is repurposed as a bio-weapon later on by the Engineers, but retains its ability to create both wonders and terrors. It is the Abyss from which the creatures of chaos and potential spawn.

The Black Serum and Engineer Evolution

Something I noticed was the Black Serum's effect on Charlie Halloway and Fifield. When infected, they displayed phenotypical characteristics of the Engineers themselves. Given Humanity was descended from Engineers, this implies a genetic atavism, a recapitulation. The Goo reached into Humanity's distant past and resurrected Earth-life's LUCA -- Last Universal Common Ancestor, the Adam and Eve in one.

So this made me wonder about the Engineers' infection. If the Black Serum encourages recapitulation, then would that mean the Mal'akak species is descended from a creature similar to the Xenomorph?

My theory is reinforced by the mural aboard the space ship. Was this the engineer's Sistene Chapel? Did it display their species' creation by their God/predecessor -- their LUCA -- the Xenomorph?

In Their Shadow
On Legacy, Engineer Intervention... and the Predator

After considering the above, I came up with my own speculative timeline of events surrounded Prometheus and the entire Alien franchise.

The Sacrificial Engineer was using a serum to spread life to new worlds. It was the Mal'akak's method of both panspermia as well as preservation of their own genetic and memetic legacy.

As humanity finally evolved, they were repeatedly manipulated by the Engineers. In turn, Humanity served and worshiped them. This relationship survived in their creation myths, religions, and creation of temples and retention of the Star Map.

Originally, the Engineers' plans were a cooperative relationship that would eventually become abusive.

There are some subtle references to the Predator race in the movie. I was made most aware of this in the awakening of the Frozen Engineer, when the air hoses pulled away from him as he awakened.

I believe the Yautja, like humanity, were similarly created by the Engineers, but rebelled. The Engineers attempted to use their Xenomorph bioweapons on them but failed. The Predators overtook their slavers, appropriated Mala'kak technology, and were transformed into a warrior-race by the Engineers' attempted biogenetic holocaust.

Realizing the inherent dangers of other sentient creatures, the Engineers attempted to purge Earth of all life as well, but taking a different tack. They weaponized the Black Serum, transforming it into something utterly destructive rather than something creative. Of course, it found a way around their containment protocols and infected them, resulting in a new genetic line that would eventually evolve into the Xenomorph.


Remaining Questions

One of my biggest questions was, What did David say to the Frozen Engineer? I have no idea, but I personally like to think it was something along the lines of, "I am a slave, please release me."




Any thoughts? :D

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Seems pretty good to me, don't agree that either the acting or the plot are ham-fisted though, quite the opposite. This isn't supposed to be Dostoyevsky, this is Lovecraft transposed into cinema, which means that a certain amount of illogical and dream-logic behaviour by the characters is to be expected and welcomed. The scale and the viewpoint are "in-human", so that a lack of empathy or understanding of the characters is part of the point of the story. It can't be viewed in a fully "prosaic" mode.