Prometheus

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Originally Posted by Equiliari

Also, for the engineer to be a 100% match as claimed in the film the engineers must have been on Earth during that time because of a thing called endogenous retroviruses. For now we have discovered that roughly 8% of our DNA is ranging from fully functional viral DNA and remnants from viral infections in us and organisms we are relatives to. Meaning the engineers must have lived on earth and had the same relatives as us as they with a 100% DNA match would have traces of the same viral infections that organisms before us and we have suffered... So add that to the things that completely ruined my suspension of disbelief.
And no biologist that I know of call the theory of evolution "darwinism".

Now the idea of panspermia could have worked... but in this film, it didn't.

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I know exactly where you're coming from but come on now. Can we really blame a science-fiction film (or any film for that matter) for not getting all its scientific facts right?

Perhaps if there was more drama in the film to distract you from this glaring oversight (I guess Scott underestimated the intelligence of the film audience? :D), it may have not been so obvious...

I'm pretty sure you are taking the term "dna match" a little too literally. Considering we all have the same DNA in the sense we are of the same human species, but even then there is a lot of variation among us; none of us an exact match of each other.

So what did test mean when it said "match?" that our dna was SO close to theirs that the only conclusion that can be made is that we descended from them.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

I know exactly where you're coming from but come on now. Can we really blame a science-fiction film (or any film for that matter) for not getting all its scientific facts right?

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I mean, don't they hire consultants to get this stuff right?

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Originally Posted by sandwich_bird

I mean, don't they hire consultants to get this stuff right?

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James Cameron did so in Avatar.
The result was one of the most realistic interstellar space ship designs in cinematic history:
http://www.projectrho.com/public_htm...V_Venture_Star

http://ca.ign.com/wikis/prometheus/Official_Quotes

Some answers in here.

Nice read, but I feel that the film still has its problems. Even ignoring the ones I had with the script and the characters, here's my desconstruction. Because I'm mean like that sometimes...

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Originally Posted by Article

The] sequence at the beginning of the film that is fundamentally creation. It's a donation, in the sense that the weight and the construction of the DNA of those aliens is way beyond what we can possibly imagine

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Couldn't he create a DNA sample to mix with the black goo instead of sacrificing himself? These are advanced aliens. We can do such a thing already in regards to DNA.

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Originally Posted by Article

You're either going to believe in the fact that we're by entirely genetic luck, so from day one where you have atomic storms -- inconceivable storms that will go on in this nucleus, in which the dirt bowl will find some reason to start growth on everything -- was that created? That may have been accidental, because I think there are many of those out there. But then the idea that, is there a higher force in the universe, comes the question: is it God, or are there superior beings out there? You stand and look at the stars at night in the galaxy out there, it's entirely ridiculous to believe that we are it. You mean this is it? We're sitting in this room, I’ve got this fucking cappuccino, and up there there’s no-one else? I don’t think so!"

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This is a strawman argument IMO. If you want to believe we're here with a purpose, you're entitled to it. Are we 'lucky' to be here? Well, after billions of years of evolution, you could say that. But if we weren't here, if 'luck' didn't play out in our favour, we wouldn't be around to gauge probabilities in the first place. Now if humans evolved completely independently on a different planet or something then I doubt you could attribute luck to it, but the notion that "we're here, therefore there must be a reason" is a notion that I think only religion can really endorse.

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Originally Posted by Article

So there's a speculative part of it, so the question becomes 'what does the black goo do?' That is the question that you're supposed to be asking coming out of this movie. The movie demonstrates what it does in certain circumstances. So, here's what it does if it gets on worms; here's what it does if it gets on your face; here's what it does if someone just puts a little bit of it in your drink. So, now we see that that lots of this is headed to Earth. Now, you used the word 'weapon,' you're extrapolating that based on the theory [Prometheus captain] Janek has, because it looks like a payload to him: all these ships are loaded with this stuff, and they're headed for Earth. The intent has to be to wipe us out, or is it to evolve us, or is it for something else?"

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Fair enough...but why does the Engineer decapitate David, kill Weyland and co. and try to kill Shaw? If they wanted to 'evolve' us with the stuff, the Engineer isn't really making that clear or anything.

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Originally Posted by Article

These are all hopefully questions and points of debate – frustrating for some -- but ultimately the kind of science-fiction... why the two movies that Ridley did decades ago are still being discussed, is this idea that when you walk out of the theater that you have to go into a community and start to discuss 'well, wait a minute, this is what I think happened,' and you're hopefully mirroring the conversation that the characters are having in the movie, and more importantly this is why Shaw says what she says at the end of the movie. Which is, 'I’m not going back to Earth and calling it a day, I need to know a little bit more about what's happening here

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We discuss Blade Runner because it's a film that works on so many levels. We discuss Alien because it was an incredible film for its time and still holds up today. We discuss Prometheus...well, actually I've kind of moved on, but while I'm not bothered by not getting all the answers, I am bothered by its rushed script, pacing and idiocy of its characters.

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Originally Posted by Article

I'd say that the short answer is: That's his programming. In the scene preceding him doing that, he is talking to Weyland (although we don't know it at the time) and he's telling Weyland that this is a bust. That they haven't found anything on this mission other than the stuff in the vials. And Weyland presumably says to him, "Well, what's in the vials?" And David would say, "I'm not entirely sure, we'll have to run some experiments." And Weyland would say, "What would happen if you put it in inside a person?" And David would say, "I don't know, I'll go find out." He doesn't know that he's poisoning Holloway, he asks Holloway, "What would you be willing to do to get the answers to your questions?" Holloway says, "Anything and everything." And that basically overrides whatever ethical programming David is mandated by, [allowing him] to spike his drink."

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Fair enough, but isn't a bit of a jump to go from obtaining the vial to testing it on a human? Doesn't the ship have the ability to analyze the properties of substances? Weyland is potentially killing off an archeologist here, one of the people most valuable in finding his aliens.

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Originally Posted by Article

I will say that there's something fascinating about humanity where we perceive it as an invitation. You look at a cave wall, there's somebody pointing at some distant planets, and one interpretation is 'This is where we come from' another is 'We want you to come here.' Where are we drawing that from? I think another thing that's interesting about the system that they visit is that the moon they land on in Prometheus is LV 223. And we know LV 426 is where the action takes place in Alien, so are they even in the right place? And how close are they to the place that these aliens on cave walls were directing them. Were they just extrapolating 'this is the system that has the sun with the sustainable life.' So there's a lot of guesswork. There's a small line in the movie where David and Holloway are talking about David's deconstruction of the language based on Holloway's thesis, and he says 'If your thesis is correct' and Holloway says 'if it's correct?' and David says 'that’s why they call it a thesis Doctor.' And the reason we threw that in there is that we're dealing with a highly hypothetical area in terms of who these beings are, what, if any, invitation they issued, and who is responsible for making those cave paintings. And did something happen in between when those cave paintings were made -- tens of thousands of years ago -- and our arrival now, in 2093, 2,000 years after these things have perished? Did something happen in the intermediate period that we should be thinking about?

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Well, the Engineers are hardly going to invite them to LV-426, and considering that LV-426 is a moon orbiting the same planet as LV-223, it's a moot point. And as for that something, we know that apparently Jesus was an Engineer...not sure how humans managed to get him on the cross if the movie is anything to go by.:confused:

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Originally Posted by Article

God doesn't hate us. But God could be disappointed in us — like children

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So...disapointment can lead you to intended genocide, but hatred doesn't?

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Originally Posted by Article

I'm most definitively pro-science, but I think that the movie advances the idea that, can the two live along side each other? Is it possible to be a scientist and maintain some fungible faith in the unknown? And are you rewarded for having blind faith? I do think that the movie is making the meta-commentary in saying well Shaw is the true believer on board, and she's the one who survives. So what are we trying to say by telling that story?"

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Shaw survives because...um, because she gets lucky when the Engineer ship comes down? She runs instead of stays and fights when the Engineer wakes up? Not sure how faith really factored into it...

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Originally Posted by Article

Well, from the very beginning, I was working from a premise that lent itself to a sequel. I really don’t want to meet God in the first one. I want to leave it open to [Noomi Rapace’s character] saying, 'I don’t want to go back to where I came from. I want to go where they came from."

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Yes Shaw, you do that...go where they came from...aliens who might interrogate you and finish what they wanted to do on Earth...don't bring the ship back so its technology can be analyzed...don't return so the crew's family and friends can be given closure...:rolleyes:

Bringing that ship back would have been the biggest death sentence to humanity. its too great a risk for the black goo to accidentally get out; once its out, game over. Look at how the engineers got wiped out in that temple.

Regarding shaw...having the willpower to endure pain from a Cesarean and do the things she does....i duno whether or not its faith that did it, but something kept her motivated to survive.

regarding analysis of the black goo....probably not feasible; at best recognize that its organic but appear..."engineered", but as to what it does? science is always about observation...so David did the scientific thing. I also speculated that its within David's programming to obey Weylands orders, despite David wanting his freedom. So using Halloway as a guinea pig was a win win, rid off the smarter element of the team that could blow the whistle on who the engineers (and at the time would mean help weyland succeed in his goal) where and if there are any left alive and also figure out what the black stuff does.

Considering that we can have a lengthy dicussion on so many parts of this movie in terms to science, religion and philosophy I'm pretty sure prometheus has reached the same footing as blade runner and alien. Regarding idiocy and characters- well lets see what Ridley scott has to say about it, im intrigued by his comments so far.

"god doesn't hate us"....

look at how AI sci fi stories run. Scenarios of our creations "dethroning" the human race. You don't think the engineers could feel the same way about human beings? We saw how David rubbed the wrong way with human characters, his creators. Its conceivable that the whether its because they are spiteful of human arrogance or cold "android like" logic that they rationalize or in their fury decide to use black goo and start from scratch.

I just watched this last night, and it hurt my head to watch and think about afterward. As a standalone movie, I think it fails. Scott wants it to be independent of the Alien franchise, yet is propped up so much by that series. Everything seemed pretty ham-fisted to me, from the acting to plot and dialog.

Of course, like you guys, I've been trying to puzzle out the overarching plot and make sense of it. I approached from two different angles; a more practical, straight-forward approach, trying to fit it together with the Alien series and the evolution of the Xenomorphs.

But then I started thinking about this as a Creation Myth, and things made a lot more sense from there. Theories below!

As Creation Myth

Understood in the framework of Creation Myth, things begin to fall into place. And my understanding revolved around the concept of Chaoskampf. Chaoskampf -- German for "Struggle against Chaos" -- is a concept that's found across many religions and is usually at the heart of any creation myth for a culture. It is the struggle against the abyss, commonly represented by a watery formlessness; and the creatures it spawns. The Gods typically wage war on these creatures and each other; the sound of their drums explained to early mankind the origin of thunder.

The Abyss is seen as both a place for potential and evil. It was the darkness and all it concealed. This is the formlessness before the creation of the Judeo-Christian firmament; Nu in Egyptian mythology.

In Prometheus, I'd argue this is represented by the Black Serum goo. The Sacrificial Engineer, mirroring Sumerian and Norse mythologies, created the seeds for life from his disintegrating body, the goo being the catalyst.

The goo in nature is repurposed as a bio-weapon later on by the Engineers, but retains its ability to create both wonders and terrors. It is the Abyss from which the creatures of chaos and potential spawn.

The Black Serum and Engineer Evolution

Something I noticed was the Black Serum's effect on Charlie Halloway and Fifield. When infected, they displayed phenotypical characteristics of the Engineers themselves. Given Humanity was descended from Engineers, this implies a genetic atavism, a recapitulation. The Goo reached into Humanity's distant past and resurrected Earth-life's LUCA -- Last Universal Common Ancestor, the Adam and Eve in one.

So this made me wonder about the Engineers' infection. If the Black Serum encourages recapitulation, then would that mean the Mal'akak species is descended from a creature similar to the Xenomorph?

My theory is reinforced by the mural aboard the space ship. Was this the engineer's Sistene Chapel? Did it display their species' creation by their God/predecessor -- their LUCA -- the Xenomorph?

In Their Shadow
On Legacy, Engineer Intervention... and the Predator

After considering the above, I came up with my own speculative timeline of events surrounded Prometheus and the entire Alien franchise.

The Sacrificial Engineer was using a serum to spread life to new worlds. It was the Mal'akak's method of both panspermia as well as preservation of their own genetic and memetic legacy.

As humanity finally evolved, they were repeatedly manipulated by the Engineers. In turn, Humanity served and worshiped them. This relationship survived in their creation myths, religions, and creation of temples and retention of the Star Map.

Originally, the Engineers' plans were a cooperative relationship that would eventually become abusive.

There are some subtle references to the Predator race in the movie. I was made most aware of this in the awakening of the Frozen Engineer, when the air hoses pulled away from him as he awakened.

I believe the Yautja, like humanity, were similarly created by the Engineers, but rebelled. The Engineers attempted to use their Xenomorph bioweapons on them but failed. The Predators overtook their slavers, appropriated Mala'kak technology, and were transformed into a warrior-race by the Engineers' attempted biogenetic holocaust.

Realizing the inherent dangers of other sentient creatures, the Engineers attempted to purge Earth of all life as well, but taking a different tack. They weaponized the Black Serum, transforming it into something utterly destructive rather than something creative. Of course, it found a way around their containment protocols and infected them, resulting in a new genetic line that would eventually evolve into the Xenomorph.


Remaining Questions

One of my biggest questions was, What did David say to the Frozen Engineer? I have no idea, but I personally like to think it was something along the lines of, "I am a slave, please release me."




Any thoughts? :D

A translation was revealed. this is a harsh iteration of it but: "This dying man wished to meet you. He believes you can give him more life".

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Originally Posted by Visions of Khas

I just watched this last night, and it hurt my head to watch and think about afterward. As a standalone movie, I think it fails. Scott wants it to be independent of the Alien franchise, yet is propped up so much by that series. Everything seemed pretty ham-fisted to me, from the acting to plot and dialog.

Of course, like you guys, I've been trying to puzzle out the overarching plot and make sense of it. I approached from two different angles; a more practical, straight-forward approach, trying to fit it together with the Alien series and the evolution of the Xenomorphs.

But then I started thinking about this as a Creation Myth, and things made a lot more sense from there. Theories below!

As Creation Myth

Understood in the framework of Creation Myth, things begin to fall into place. And my understanding revolved around the concept of Chaoskampf. Chaoskampf -- German for "Struggle against Chaos" -- is a concept that's found across many religions and is usually at the heart of any creation myth for a culture. It is the struggle against the abyss, commonly represented by a watery formlessness; and the creatures it spawns. The Gods typically wage war on these creatures and each other; the sound of their drums explained to early mankind the origin of thunder.

The Abyss is seen as both a place for potential and evil. It was the darkness and all it concealed. This is the formlessness before the creation of the Judeo-Christian firmament; Nu in Egyptian mythology.

In Prometheus, I'd argue this is represented by the Black Serum goo. The Sacrificial Engineer, mirroring Sumerian and Norse mythologies, created the seeds for life from his disintegrating body, the goo being the catalyst.

The goo in nature is repurposed as a bio-weapon later on by the Engineers, but retains its ability to create both wonders and terrors. It is the Abyss from which the creatures of chaos and potential spawn.

The Black Serum and Engineer Evolution

Something I noticed was the Black Serum's effect on Charlie Halloway and Fifield. When infected, they displayed phenotypical characteristics of the Engineers themselves. Given Humanity was descended from Engineers, this implies a genetic atavism, a recapitulation. The Goo reached into Humanity's distant past and resurrected Earth-life's LUCA -- Last Universal Common Ancestor, the Adam and Eve in one.

So this made me wonder about the Engineers' infection. If the Black Serum encourages recapitulation, then would that mean the Mal'akak species is descended from a creature similar to the Xenomorph?

My theory is reinforced by the mural aboard the space ship. Was this the engineer's Sistene Chapel? Did it display their species' creation by their God/predecessor -- their LUCA -- the Xenomorph?

In Their Shadow
On Legacy, Engineer Intervention... and the Predator

After considering the above, I came up with my own speculative timeline of events surrounded Prometheus and the entire Alien franchise.

The Sacrificial Engineer was using a serum to spread life to new worlds. It was the Mal'akak's method of both panspermia as well as preservation of their own genetic and memetic legacy.

As humanity finally evolved, they were repeatedly manipulated by the Engineers. In turn, Humanity served and worshiped them. This relationship survived in their creation myths, religions, and creation of temples and retention of the Star Map.

Originally, the Engineers' plans were a cooperative relationship that would eventually become abusive.

There are some subtle references to the Predator race in the movie. I was made most aware of this in the awakening of the Frozen Engineer, when the air hoses pulled away from him as he awakened.

I believe the Yautja, like humanity, were similarly created by the Engineers, but rebelled. The Engineers attempted to use their Xenomorph bioweapons on them but failed. The Predators overtook their slavers, appropriated Mala'kak technology, and were transformed into a warrior-race by the Engineers' attempted biogenetic holocaust.

Realizing the inherent dangers of other sentient creatures, the Engineers attempted to purge Earth of all life as well, but taking a different tack. They weaponized the Black Serum, transforming it into something utterly destructive rather than something creative. Of course, it found a way around their containment protocols and infected them, resulting in a new genetic line that would eventually evolve into the Xenomorph.


Remaining Questions

One of my biggest questions was, What did David say to the Frozen Engineer? I have no idea, but I personally like to think it was something along the lines of, "I am a slave, please release me."




Any thoughts? :D

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Seems pretty good to me, don't agree that either the acting or the plot are ham-fisted though, quite the opposite. This isn't supposed to be Dostoyevsky, this is Lovecraft transposed into cinema, which means that a certain amount of illogical and dream-logic behaviour by the characters is to be expected and welcomed. The scale and the viewpoint are "in-human", so that a lack of empathy or understanding of the characters is part of the point of the story. It can't be viewed in a fully "prosaic" mode.