Only if they scout it, just like now with fast Void/Ray Phoenix. Really though, simply picture a regular 3 gate push where everything is a DT. That's crazy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jconant
Printable View
Only if they scout it, just like now with fast Void/Ray Phoenix. Really though, simply picture a regular 3 gate push where everything is a DT. That's crazy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jconant
Then it may be a problem for less skilled players who dont scout well, but that tech path may be a good way for toss to endure mid game fights; the cloaking and conquering air would give warpgate units an edge against terran bio balls.
lol, exactly what I was thinking.Quote:
Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid
From what i'm reading though; it costs 100 energy to cloak, meaning you'de have to wait for the energy to build up.
But the current build of the mothership core can max a unit's energy for only 25 of its own...
This means enough for 2 cloaks for the price of a chrono boost.
I like :)
I really like the mothership core and its flexibility; you can use it to push an offensive and charge up units for a fast cloaking/ massive economic harassment
at the risk of not being able to recall troops back or activate the "purifier".
Battle Report 2 coming up:
I'd love to see them release another battle report where the people are actually playing smart, rather than concentrating on showcasing the new units. I appreciate it, but the Terran could've done so much better if he hadn't been so limited.
Sadly, the meta game will follow the same pattern it did during WoL's development and release. We will see many "pros" rising and falling because of the constant patching and changes in the meta game of HotS. It will only be two years later that we will see pure strategy and smart players at the top of the ladder. Then, LotV will be released.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alar
Pure mech still looks bad. I mean, pros are gonna be able to pull it off but not the general population. It's way too apm intensive now. I mean, setting up siege tanks and widow mine is gonna be really hard. Spider mines were easier to set up back in the days.
I really don't think this was staged. I know it seems like it was, but with the volume of games they play, there has to be at least a few real games that work for their purposes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alar
Yeah, I think that they played a lot of games, and picked up the ones that were interesting. It really didn't look like it was staged, at least not to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldrius
I wouldn't say staged but at least directed - i.e. told to focus on using new units and not to go for the quick kill.
Perhaps it's a core salvaged from a damaged Mothership? After several billion hours of WoL multiplayer, there ought to be a few lying around. ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by Hawki
Also, if you think about it, a Mothership has a lot of habitation and life support space that's not needed on the battlefield. I guess that stuff could be stripped away for a more battleworthy unit, but that's blown to hell by the fact that you can upgrade the Core into a full mothership.
I'm a little confused, as this seems to give the Protoss two aerial siege units. Does it perform better against units than the Void Ray?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawki
Gameplay-wise, it's an attempt to make the Hellion useful in late-game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawki
Lore-wise, it doesn't make sense. Where does the extra armor come from?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawki
Well, it works for plasma grenades.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawki
In-universe, the Widow mine is probably smaller than its apparent size, and would be designed to attach to the underside of vehicles. Much less noticeable than one would think, and the delay gives it time to crawl around and find a weak point.
The ability to latch onto infantry is a result of the programmer being a fan of Spider Mines II: They Walk. As for leaping dozens of meters into the air and latching onto air units, what can I say? Their hearts are in it.
Yeah, it seems weird to me too, but I guess it's supposed to differentiate itself from the Zealot charge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawki
Otherwise:
Battlecruiser Speed Boost: It's about time.
Reaper Health, no grenades: Can't see this lasting long.
It is not that, but because of the gameplay. If they had just charge, it would be close to useless. Unlike Zealots, Ultras are fast already, but they have problem with being huge, so they start to bug around, not being able to attack because of Zerglings and other Ultras. With burrow charge, that problem is gone, because they can get underneath the unit.Quote:
Yeah, it seems weird to me too, but I guess it's supposed to differentiate itself from the Zealot charge.
:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Quirel
In the first Battle Report, we saw it worked amazingly with a spotter, especially the oracle. (Void rays don't have great range, and don't benefit from a spotter.) With a range of 22, you pretty much require your opponent to have air to fight it.Quote:
I'm a little confused, as this seems to give the Protoss two aerial siege units. Does it perform better against units than the Void Ray?
I really don't know how Terrans will be able to deal with Tempests. They only have the viking to deal with them on only-air map spots, while the Zerg has Mutalisks, Corruptors and Vipers.
Well, how about this: is a structure more stable with all of the supports completely upright and parallel, or with the supports crossing over one another and supporting each other, as well as the house?Quote:
Originally Posted by Quirel
Lore-wise, I can understand, because the configuration of something can easily impact its toughness. That's why carbon nanotubes are so much stronger than, say, a slate of carbon.
On the subject of the Tempest, though, I really don't think it will be used in PvT. I mean, there aren't enough new units to change the basic layout of your average lategame army (maybe an extra Oracle, but that's it). Considering this, it means Colossi. Colossi mean Vikings. And of course, Vikings mean that Tempests can be shut down quite easily. For an equal investment in Vikings and Tempest, I'm fairly certain that Vikings would come out on top (feel free to correct my math on that).
The tempest would be a good option to out snipe vikings and siege tanks. Colossi have the same range so you end up having the problem of needing a good number to even attempt to fight and you risk losing some in the process. Same goes for the void ray vs viking- they'll get in range of marines too.
What im unsure of though is the damage output of the tempest. How effective would they be at fighting corruptors or vikings? Am I going to need a large stalker force or void rays in the mix?
Tempests have a low DPS due to a slow cooldown. I think Vikings can deal with them pretty easily, unfortunately, they're probably the only terran unit that can do so.
Corruptors do bonus damage to massive units, whereas they are not themselves massive.
I don't...see the point in that. Like are you basing all this on the fact that they're not making the tactical decisions you would? They could just be bad players.Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. peasant
As for the Tempest, I think it has a massive bonus. And large damage + slow attack rate usually means it's designed for taking on big things that there are few of. (i.e. If you're killing zerglings or mutalisks one at a time, you're not going to be very effective against them.) But I'm not sure how that works with the Void Ray. I like the Void Ray better mechanically, but the Tempest has such a cool design.
I dunno how they're going to make it work, though. Right now it's just so generic... it's a big floating capital ship with huge amounts of range. The fact that it's a 22 range flying unit is so crazy. It's not uncounterable by ground (uh... I don't think...?), but it's so sloppy and there's nothing really that interesting about it from a mechanics point of view to me.
the zerg with the combo of hydra + the new caster proved to work well at taking them out.
Abduct has a limited range (too short, IMO). If the protoss player is holding the tempest over space or otherwise impassable terrain, the zerg player must use air. Vipers would only be marginally useful there; it just gets the tempest to the flying attackers a bit faster.
I'm just afraid all a protoss player will have to do now is craete a swarm of Pheonix around a squadron of Tempests and that's it, game over man. Game over.
Tempests appear to do very little DPS. I feel like, with 22 range, there will be a fine line between overpowered and useless. I'd hate to see the Tempest go the way of the carrier, but I'd also hate to see a swarm of tempests that you can never get any units close enough to to fight. That said, I think corruptors and vikings will be more than enough to deal with tempests as they are in the alpha build.
Oracle looks incredibly good, but things to keep in mind are that 1) they are incredibly low health (20 health 80 shields), 2) they have no attack and very limited battle use, and 3) they cost a large chunk of minerals and vespene (150/200). So while they will certainly be able to do a whole lot of economic damage, you will leave yourself quite vulnerable to any attack. Sniping an oracle shouldn't be too hard with queens, and you should probably e building spore crawlers already if you haven't scouted.
Mothership core is a great solution to problems that could have arisen when they had similar abilities on the nexus. First of all, it means protoss will be limited in the number of times they can recall. With every nexus having that ability, you'd be able to, on 3 bases, recall your army a nearly unlimited number of times. This gives protoss extra mobility, and greater options both offensively and defensively. Also, this way the abilities don't conflict with chrono boost, which is working perfectly fine as it is. The ability to turn a nexus into a planetary fortress is good for helping protoss take and defend bases that are farther away from their main, which is good for PvP, but also means that maps can now have thirds that are farther away, which is good for gameplay in all matchups imo. It also functions differently than a Terran planetary fortress, however, because you can only have one of them. Instead of choosing between economy and defense, the choice lies in which nexus needs to be defended. Restore energy seems like an ability that is just tacked on to give the mothership core another ability, although it might be interesting when used in cojunction with chronoboost, as I have heard you can cast it on nexuses.
As for Terran, the warhound still looks ugly (though it has improved), but it should make mech viable in TvP, which is exciting. I only hope it doesn't replace siege tanks, since without them mech isn't interesting at all. Battle hellions are basically firebats, but they share production structures and upgrades with mech units, making mech better to use. It also means that the risk that comes with producing hellions is drastically reduced, since they are better in a straight engagement. A couple months ago I would have said this was a bad thing, but ever since the range buff for queens, hellions have all but disappeared. This buff should more than bring them back.
Widow mines are absurdly strong in their current form, and can make Terran immune to mutalisk harass for an absurdly low cost. Plus, they do like 200 freaking damage. As long as they kill anything more expensive than a zealot, they've already paid for themselves.
Swarm hosts Are probably the biggest addition to zerg play. They give Zerg an opportunity to end the game somewhere between a roach-baneling all-in and hive tech. They also give zerg the ability to apply potentially game-ending pressure that ISN'T completely all-in before hive tech. At the moment, they look really really ridiculously good. With 25 second lifespan locusts, swarm hosts can almost certainly outrange even Tempests. Plus locusts have as much health as marines with combat shields on their combat shields and do more dps than roaches. Love this unit.
Viper should be interesting, although I have a feeling blinding cloud won't be used outside of ZvZ. Against Protoss it is absolutely worthless, and I don't know any situation where I would rather have a blinding cloud than a fungal. Still, Abduct seems like a useful ability, although I don't know if it justifies te 200 gas cost. Withholding judgement on this one for now.
Burrow move banelings are gone :'(
Burrow-charge ultralisks look really good. Between seeing them in the battle reports and watching WoL ultralisks tear things apart at MLG, I'm dearly worried for bio in HOTS. I was worried before that it would be too similar to zealot charge, but it turns out it is really quite different. It isn't auto-cast, has a significantly larger cooldown, from what I can tell, does a bunch of splash damage, and, of course, involves the ultralisks burrowing underground. I still don't understand how they are able to burrow, tunnel, and unburrow under their enemies in less time than it takes them to burrow normally, but it should help them get around not only enemy forces but their own as well to get right into the battle. I am worried, however, that the ultras will be so good that bio will be useless against them. Especially since right now MMM is the best way to deal with them, this makes Ultras counter their own counter. Since Ultras are no longer frenzied, I anticipate that using the thor's strike cannons will be the weapon of choice against ultras, as it was in the WoL beta. Should be interesting.
Hydras are faster off creep, which might be cool if they weren't still made of tissue paper. And not even the good kind; the crappy kind that you blow your nose into and then it breaks and you get snot all over your hands.
Overall, 9/10
Basing it on the function of the video and what occurred onscreen. Blizzard needs the Battle Report to last long enough to feature HotS gameplay. Ergo, no rushing allowed - at least not to the point it kills the opponent or leaves him/her in an unrecoverable position. Note how every Battle Report has always been about 20-30 minutes long. Secondly, they manage to feature all the new units - either showing them excelling at their intended use and/or being squashed by their ideal counter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldrius
Of course, you could always claim that Blizzard could have scanned the hundreds upon hundreds of internal matches they've recorded but getting two players together and telling them which strategies to employ and how hard to push is much, much easier.
Good review MulletBen, this is the only thing I disagree. Blinding Cloud will mostly be used against Terran bio, which forces Terran to micro, or to go for mech, and even if they go for mech, abduct is extremely useful.Quote:
Viper should be interesting, although I have a feeling blinding cloud won't be used outside of ZvZ. Against Protoss it is absolutely worthless, and I don't know any situation where I would rather have a blinding cloud than a fungal. Still, Abduct seems like a useful ability, although I don't know if it justifies te 200 gas cost. Withholding judgement on this one for now.
You said that you don't see the reason why would you use Blinding cloud instead of the Fungal? Well, if you have watched MLG matches, you saw that when Terran has enough Medivacs, fungal just doesn't do enough damage to kill anything. You surround his army with huge numbers of Zerglings and Roaches, followed up with few fungals, and after 5-6 seconds, you realize that all your units are gone, while half of his units are on red, half full hp.
This ability will force Terran to micro, which is great thing, I am an Zerg player, and I think that fungal would be 10 times better as a slow instead of a root. It just breaks the game, you are killing half of his stuff by just chain fungals, and he can't move at all. When Terran has huge force of Marines, Medivacs and Marauders, even with great fungals, Terran just has sick fire power and will probably kill all your units before you kill his. So, how about blinding cloud and fungal on top of that? That sounds completely broken to me, and I hope that they will do something about fungal growth.
Cloud + Fungal would be a killer and boring combo. I know it would be rare, and costy. Still, I agree with Ramiz, and I think that maybe HotS is an opportunity to switch Fungal to a slow debuff. But a slow debuff is also a micro denier.
Talking about micro deniers (Fungal and FFs being the classical exemples), I think that removing frenzy from Ultras is a good thing. As MulletBen pointed, now Ultras could be countered by Thors. Any thing that is invencible, or an automatic succes, of a "Save or Die", limits the possibilities of the game. Now Ultras will have a mobility buff, rather than a "mobility debuff imunity". Not sure about Abduct though. I like how it brings some positional strategy to the game (or so the Report made it seem), but maybe, if it could be denied by moving the target away it could be even better.
Do you think there are others "something-deniers" in the game that could be ripped?
I think that the Viper's design so far is unusual. It has got only one use in ZvP. I don't know of any other caster with no attack and just one use in a certain match. I think this design philosophy is very different from WoL's. They're batlantly trying to fill up holes, so weird things appear. They mentioned the Warhound is in it's tenth version...
In Blizzcon, my favorite new units were the Zerg ones. They were so solid that they are still the same. But my new favorites are the Protoss. Gone from tottally lame to really interesting. Oracle and Core will obviously add versatility. I think Tempest will do the same, it currently does something unprecedented in Blizzard RTS games. I hope the range upgrade is kept.
About the Core's "loreability", I think this is easy. The Motherships are rare, but not because they big giant pieces of metal. They are a masterpiece of a psychic race that can store people inside crystals. If the Motherships are such a Masterpiece, and remember, Nexus are the "anchor" that holds the "psionic web" in certain planet or region, one of the possibilities of the Mommaship would be kind of "fuse" with the Nexi, and like a transcendent Megazord, achieve even greater control of time and space. Now, why would you have to pay more to make it back into a ship, that makes no sense, but half of lore cracks in MP anyway.
And sue me, but I liked the previous Warhound more. Yeah, I know it needed to be polished, but the that clanky look is what gave BW Terrans so much personality. Now they're too much "epic" and clean and space-opera standard.
(yay, debut post :) )
I guess I just don't see scanning games for ones they want is really all that hard.Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. peasant
People are going to be testing the new units regardless. I dunno if they have to be told to do that.
Well, tastes are different I guess. :PQuote:
And sue me, but I liked the previous Warhound more. Yeah, I know it needed to be polished, but the that clanky look is what gave BW Terrans so much personality. Now they're too much "epic" and clean and space-opera standard.
But to be honest, new Warhound isn't something original, it reminds me on Dreadnought from Warhammer 40k, even though Dreadnoughts are a lot more bulkier than Warhound, it is like an taller version of Dreadnought.
And the old Warhound looks... I just don't know, like that it is made scrapped parts and model looks ridiculous.
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_...in_873x627.jpg
Dreadnought.
http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Waxa...n_Warhound.jpg
New Warhound.
http://cdn.gamerant.com/wp-content/u...nd-570x333.jpg
Old Warhound.
I feel it is. No matter how quickly you scan through the footage, you're still talking multiple hours' worth of work before you can be certain you have a good one. Far, far simpler and quicker to just direct two players what you want to have featured.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldrius
Quote:
Originally Posted by TcheQuevara
http://a1.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/i...b35866c3/l.jpg
Welcome to SCLegacy!:D
Do you think the mobility of the hydralisk and ultralisk are going to make them a lil op?
The extra speed is just to get them into and out of combat more effectively, same for the battle cruiser. They'll be no more overpowered than Reaper or Roach speed upgrades are now - which is none.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jconant
But then why didn't they feature the Warhound? There were two games, Zerg versus Protoss and Zerg versus Terran. If they directed it to showcase all the units, they would have gone the extra step to tell them to make a Terran versus Protoss match so that the Warhound could have a chance to shine. But well, they didn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. peasant
The expansion is zerg focused. A protoss vs. terran Battle Report WILL come out, that much is certain. They simply chose to showcase the zerg-oriented matchups first for obvious reasons.Quote:
Originally Posted by handclaw
So, I've seen the videos recently, but I didn't have the time to comment on them since I've been without any internet support for the last couple of days. Anyways, based on my views on all battle reports, here's my comment on several stuff:
- This Mothership Core thing will only be useful to pull people out of tight spots. If they want to make the 'Purify' ability more useful, Blizzard should buff the damage of the cannon (More than Planetary Fortress) and/or make it an AoE attack.
-I feel that AoE should be added to the Tempest's gun as well, as it's going to replace the Carrier and there's nothing no one will do anything about it.
- Either the Viper or Infestor (Mostly Viper) should be pushed to Hive tech. While PvZ is still viable (If people WILL REMEMBER the High Templar Feedback), TvZ and ZvZ will not, as people will keep losing Siege Tanks and Brood Lords to Abduct. Of course that's the idea, but, in the extreme case, raise the energy cost of Abduct.
- So far, the only unit I see to be faring well and in a satisfactory gameplay terms is the Battle Hellion. I'm still to see the Warhound, which I have to disagree (Anti-Mechanical missiles is pure, blantant hard counter).
/edit
- Also, Reaper anti-structure attack could be a mid-game research. (Needing Ghost Academy or Starport)
Viper is hive-tech, currently.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeltaCadimus
Hmm... I remember seeing in one of the videos that Viper was Lair-tech. Well, need a confirm on this anyways.Quote:
Originally Posted by Muspelli
It was Lair tech at the Blizzcon build as far as I know, but now it seems that it is Hive Tech, which is actually pretty good balance-wise.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeltaCadimus
In both Battle reports, Zerg players quickly upgraded Lair to Hive so they could get Hydra's speed upgrade, and Vipers. Before that, they were both massing Swarm Hosts.
Because Swarm Hosts require an Infestation Pit it is much easier for Zerg to look for Hive tech.
I find it weird the Swarm Host requires the Infestation Pit. Its like they're saying the Locusts are infesting the Swarm Host to be ironic.Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Blade