Karune explains how T or P counter 1hatch queen.

Source: How does T or P counter 1hatch queen?

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Hi Karune!

Teamliquid recently release a article that claims that 1 hatch queen is almost impossible to beat do to the economic advantage and denying scouting.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/view...opic_id=101195

We were curious how Terran or Protoss should deal with a zerg 1hatch queen build.

---

There is also an article here which states a few of my thoughts:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/view...opic_id=101510

Additionally, the 1hatch queen build is strong, but relatively easy to stop if you know this is a potential strategy on the field.

These are just a few strategies I use and by no means the only strategies I've seen used:

With Terran, you will naturally want to block your choke point. This in itself will easily stop fast Zerglings, as you can use Marines to fire upon enemies from a cliff (since they don't have LoS, just make sure you keep those pesky Overlords at bay, which is relatively easy as well). SCVs do an excellent job of repairing much faster than Zerglings can do damage at this early of a stage. Hydralisks on the other hand pose a bit more problems, but can still be handled by a group of Marines behind supply depots or even a bunker if it is needed. Terran choke points are quite difficult to break at the moment and while your enemy expends resources determined to break it, I would hope you would be teching either to Banshees or Reapers for harassment, then putting them into the defensive and taking you into the mid-game, where arguably at the moment Zerg is forced to be at a defensive if they did do the 1hatch queen strategy (key point being the 1 hatch or late expand).

With Protoss, the proposed Zerg strategy is a bit more viable and it takes a little more skill to defend against it. For me, I often block my choke point with 2 gateways or 1 gateway/1 cybernetics core (if I am teching), leaving one cell open for an easy single Zealot block. Breaking that choke point for a single Zergling hitting that Zealot at a time, is an easy block, and quite cost effective for the Protoss player. For a determined Zerg player, they would either start attacking the gateways or tech to Banelings to take out the Zealot(s).

Timing-wise, you will be able to get your second Zealot out in time well before the Gateway is even at half health, which is usually enough to push off those initial Zerglings. When your Cybernetics Core is up, this opens up Nullifiers, which is a must used unit in my opinion against Zerg. At this time if the Zerg player has converted to Hydralisks (or even straight teched to Hydralisks), you should have at least one Nullifier up, which are excellent at both killing Hydralisks (with even 1 Zealot tanking) or even better, cutting a Zerg force in half while they push up the ramp, easily allowing your Zealot to hold the choke while your ranged units like Nullifiers and Stalkers annihilate half the force with ease, putting the Zerg on the defensive now, and opening up mid-game options.

Of course both strategies require micro, which is intentional - with an Overlord scouting and giving LoS, Hydralisks can be very potent. The 1 hatch queen strategy is quite capable, but not overpowering.

Hope this was useful - though you can expect lots of things to still change and be changed throughout beta.

Zerg's were mentioned as the 'weaker' race in a developer interview not because of their early game, but their mid game. In current builds, it is much more balanced with recent changes to make Zerg a bit more threatening in mid-game, such as Roaches moving while burrowed as one example.

---

You can thank ArcherofAiur for that post :D


.

Really, did you need to make 4 separate threads? They could all have gone into one post.

Quote:

---

In current builds, it is much more balanced with recent changes to make Zerg a bit more threatening in mid-game, such as Roaches moving while burrowed as one example.

---

I guess Roaches aren't tank units anymore.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

Really, did you need to make 4 separate threads? They could all have gone into one post.

---

Normally I would have, but I decided that it's better to keep different topics separated, since it's very awkward to talk about four totally different things in one thread. Also, it allows me to be more specific about the topic in the title.


.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by n00bonicPlague

Normally I would have, but I decided that it's better to keep different topic separated, since it's very awkward to talk about four totally different things in one thread. Also, it allows me to be more specific about the topic in the title.

---

Id combine at least some of them.

But yah that was such an incredible Karune responce. Its easy to start thinking that the developers arnt paying attention to things like BO or the macro mechanics. But posts like that really restore my confidence.

I can't wait to see what the folks over at TL have to say about this.


X :cool:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur

Id combine at least some of them.

But yah that was such an incredible Karune responce. Its easy to start thinking that the developers arnt paying attention to things like BO or the macro mechanics. But posts like that really restore my confidence.

---

While you're busy walling-in, the Zerg player can fast expand, and macro like crazy. Didn't that destroyed your confidence? :p

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by XSOLDIER

I can't wait to see what the folks over at TL have to say about this.


X :cool:

---

Wait no more:

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/view...opic_id=101716

This will really limit the amount of maps in play though if you are counting on LOS to help fend off the zerg. I remember the Inverse Lost Temple map where you started on low ground and needed to expand to higher ground. If LOS is required to defend this, I'm not sure I really like how this is going. Maps with Large Choke points or starting on lower terrain may not be viable.

I do hate the sound of limited map templates.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crota

This will really limit the amount of maps in play though if you are counting on LOS to help fend off the zerg. I remember the Inverse Lost Temple map where you started on low ground and needed to expand to higher ground. If LOS is required to defend this, I'm not sure I really like how this is going. Maps with Large Choke points or starting on lower terrain may not be viable.

---

I hear ya, that is a bit concerning how eary rush countermeasures are contingent on choke points being exploited. That means against Zerg, Terran players will habitually block their chokes for fears of an early rush, while Zerg players will constantly be playing against choke blockades. Frankly this will get very irritating over time and I'd hope that the variety of maps would alleviate these cookie-cutter builds/strategies.

This really dances around the issue, they shouldn't of tried to answer that question.

Honestly, as I said on TL.NET.. I don't believe the question needs answering right now. We are talking about something that likely can and will be fixed with the tweaking of unit attributes, cost(Energy and Resources), and build time.

The article on TL.NET was a good one, but balancing should come after beta starts, when more people have the ability to test things and blizzard gets a much better idea on what needs to be fixed and how it needs to be fixed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Santrega

Honestly, as I said on TL.NET.. I don't believe the question needs answering right now. We are talking about something that likely can and will be fixed with the tweaking of unit attributes, cost(Energy and Resources), and build time.

The article on TL.NET was a good one, but balancing should come after beta starts, when more people have the ability to test things and blizzard gets a much better idea on what needs to be fixed and how it needs to be fixed.

---

I know what you are saying and that balacing should come after the beta, my concern is that Karune stated the way to handle this tactic was to fight at the tight choke and use LOS. However, if this is Blizzard's answer to a viable strategy, it will severly limit the number of maps that can be produced by the public. As some of the best SC maps are not made by Blizzard, we will most likely see maps made by the community that need Down ramps outside of Mains and chokes otherwise Zerg will by to strong in the early game.


I guess my concern is more of a design standpoint for maps. Does Blizzard believe that all mains will have a choke point and/or a down ramp?

Well stopping the build was only half the problem. I think it could be done somewhat easily without a ramp.


The problem is you dont know that its coming really, if you know there going to try to break you with hydras then you can easily stop it, the problem is queen stops your scouting probe and so do lings with new pathing. Theres nothing you can do to see what hes producing...so he could just make infinte drones and take a big lead that way etcetc.tectc.


I agree though that i hope they don't plan on making every map with a small choke + ramp.

Quote:

---

I don't believe the question needs answering right now. We are talking about something that likely can and will be fixed with the tweaking of unit attributes, cost(Energy and Resources), and build time.

---

If it is found to be broken at all. Which is what Beta is for. And which is why people getting concerned about these issues is silly.

Now, if it's still broken after 6 months of beta, we can talk. But I'd expect Blizzard to want to at least put it through 2 weeks of beta before attempting to change it.

Quote:

---

Does Blizzard believe that all mains will have a choke point and/or a down ramp?

---

Do you know of a well-balanced SC1 map that didn't have a choke leading to the main base?

What really bothers me about this is that they expect everyone who's not Zerg to wall in. =S I don't like that idea at all, a main reason I don't play Terran is because I don't like walling in..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by supersonic

What really bothers me about this is that they expect everyone who's not Zerg to wall in. =S I don't like that idea at all, a main reason I don't play Terran is because I don't like walling in..

---

But thats how SC1 is. Nicol has a point. Most if competitive maps feature choke points at the main. I never saw anyone complain that Reapers meant your main has to have cliffs. Even with these features map makers will still find new things to keep maps interesting.

I just hope that the game is balanced enough for maps that aren't all high ground start locations with a ramp.

Blue storm is an amazing map and I saw boxer pull off a very smart strategy on that map... but it's not balanced at all. Zerg rapes on that map.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pandonetho

I just hope that the game is balanced enough for maps that aren't all high ground start locations with a ramp.

Blue storm is an amazing map and I saw boxer pull off a very smart strategy on that map... but it's not balanced at all. Zerg rapes on that map.

---

I just don't want to have to feel like I HAVE to wall every game, even when I'm not Terran.

aye, but with burrowing supply depots why wouldn't you wall in your choke every game?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by trace wm

aye, but with burrowing supply depots why wouldn't you wall in your choke every game?

---

I don't play Terran, that basically being my main issue, if I did then I wouldn't mind, but I play Protoss and I don't like walling in. Don't get me wrong you gotta block stuff off with units and stuff but, walling noty..

like someone said, the answer kind of dances around the issue. aside from the fact that the zerg can force you to wall in and build plenty of early game defenders + defences, you are somewhat in the dark as to what the zerg is actually doing. he could just mass out drones instead and take a huge eco advantage. thats where the core problem lies. the zerg hold the initiative and call the shots all the time in early game.

The solution is to make the mechanics less accessible. Like putting them at higher tier.

I think that the queen should cost 75min and 75 gas intead of 150 minerals it does now, that would effectively delay the queen for about 1min ( 30 seconds to build an Extractor and the rest to collect the gas), that 1 exstra minute would make all the difference, since there is no fear of a rush :)

Hm, so change the Queen to in actuality cost 175 minerals + more time + gas.

The Queen could easily remake that back with its current capabilities, I suppose the only important factor is time.

Update:

Quote:

---

I thought Nullifiers were now known as Disruptors?

---

Correction, yes, they are Disruptors. Old habits die hard.

Quote:

---

Karune, could you address the actual problem, which is the inability to determine whether the Zerg is powering or massing (Zerglings prevent any worker scouting due to greatly improved pathing and Creep bonus) that causes T and P players to overly defend?


"i thought that the point was that 1 hatch wasn't impossible to stop but that it denied scouting too well and left your opponents in the dark from which you could either macro up drones or offensive and your opponent would have to keep guessing from a backwards position

ie. the solutions seem to only address early lings/hydras not the alternative or

did i not comprehend/read properly?" - dcberkeley

"It doesn't address the fact that zerg can power up.

All it stated was. "If the T/P turtles they won't lose" "When they get to the mid-game they win."

Except with the abilitiy to mass drones, won't the Z have too large of an economy before t/p can push? Like, after the first set of lings with speed to deny scouting, the zerg can get 2 bases running for long enough to be weaker in mid game, but throw enough weak units and you still beat the better army.

I'm sure he knows best, but I would've liked it more if he spoke about how it opens up options not just the ability get a large rush." - randombum

"I don't understand. The poster specifically asks about the economic advantage from queen unit/drone powering and the difficulty to scouting Zerg, yet he answers how to block a Zergling rush. This does not help at all." - zatic

---

Scouting is much easier now in StarCraft II for various reasons including earlier Observers (without the prerequisite Observatory building as in the original StarCraft), more mobile units like Reapers/Colossi/Stalkers/Medivacs (more incentive now to build these than original StarCraft since they double up as medics). All of these methods of scouting will be available by mid-game and be useful from then on. Before mid game - SCVs and probes are sufficient to scout. Once Zergling speed gets upgraded, there may be a small window of more difficult scouting, but honestly, that window is much smaller than say playing against a Terran player that blocks you out completely. Additionally, Terran still have scan and Protoss still can go fast air to scout and harass Overlords.

Also mentioned in my previous post, these were just a few ways to deal with the 1 hatch threat. There are definitely ways to build your base without blocking the choke, but I have found blocking it against Zerg as the best way to keep fast Zerglings out with the least amount of attention.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stardust ★

Scouting is much easier now in StarCraft II for various reasons including earlier Observers (without the prerequisite Observatory building as in the original StarCraft), more mobile units like Reapers/Colossi/Stalkers/Medivacs (more incentive now to build these than original StarCraft since they double up as medics). All of these methods of scouting will be available by mid-game and be useful from then on. Before mid game - SCVs and probes are sufficient to scout. Once Zergling speed gets upgraded, there may be a small window of more difficult scouting, but honestly, that window is much smaller than say playing against a Terran player that blocks you out completely. Additionally, Terran still have scan and Protoss still can go fast air to scout and harass Overlords.

Also mentioned in my previous post, these were just a few ways to deal with the 1 hatch threat. There are definitely ways to build your base without blocking the choke, but I have found blocking it against Zerg as the best way to keep fast Zerglings out with the least amount of attention.

---

Still like what was said already " the zerg hold the initiative and call the shots all the time in early game." you really shouldn't feel powerless at the start, and this still gives Zerg a huge lead in resources by mid game.

But of course this will all be balanced in beta =P

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by supersonic

Still like what was said already " the zerg hold the initiative and call the shots all the time in early game." you really shouldn't feel powerless at the start, and this still gives Zerg a huge lead in resources by mid game.

But of course this will all be balanced in beta =P

---

Yah so a 1 hatch queen has the advantage early game but then T and P get stronger mid game. For one thier Macro mechanics start to ramp up. I actually like this kind of timing window kind of gameplay.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur

Yah so a 1 hatch queen has the advantage early game but then T and P get stronger mid game. For one thier Macro mechanics start to ramp up. I actually like this kind of timing window kind of gameplay.

---

I prefer all around balance myself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by supersonic

I prefer all around balance myself.

---

Timing builds were in SC1 the most balanced RTS of all time. The only way your getting exactly same strength at exactly the same time is if you make them exactly the same. Not only that but its boring. Starcraft is much better off with staggered advantages. It complements the fast paced nature of the game and contributes to the back and forth gameplay style.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by supersonic

I prefer all around balance myself.

---

Sounds balanced to me... he says there are other ways to fight them off other than blocking the choke... whats unbalanced about it?

I think its going to be quite balanced by the time beta comes, and beta testers will iron out the kinks. I dont think karune would so quickly throw out these claims if they really had a chance of being true.

People are really trying to get conversations going, and thats not a bad thing...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur

Timing builds were in SC1 the most balanced RTS of all time.

---

yeah but they weren't as heavy as Protoss's and Terran's mid game > Zergs

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Santrega

Sounds balanced to me... he says there are other ways to fight them off other than blocking the choke... whats unbalanced about it?

I think its going to be quite balanced by the time beta comes, and beta testers will iron out the kinks. I dont think karune would so quickly throw out these claims if they really had a chance of being true.

People are really trying to get conversations going, and thats not a bad thing...

---

The unbalanced part is where you can't expand in fear that your going to get pwned because your force < my force. I can tell you right now thats exactly how PvT was at Blizzcon, it was almost scary to try to expand or move out of your base because if you didn't wall or stay defensive then you would get wiped out, thus allowing the other player to expand and move along the map freely because you HAVE to turtle. Trust me the having to wall thing didn't work very well, it worked at the start when it was a early defense (like a bunker) but when you still have to turtle because you are being out produced (Zerg) or the units eat yours (Protoss) then it makes it hard if not impossible to win.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by supersonic

The unbalanced part is where you can't expand in fear that your going to get pwned because your force < my force. I can tell you right now thats exactly how PvT was at Blizzcon, it was almost scary to try to expand or move out of your base because if you didn't wall or stay defensive then you would get wiped out, thus allowing the other player to expand and move along the map freely because you HAVE to turtle. Trust me the having to wall thing didn't work very well, it worked at the start when it was a early defense (like a bunker) but when you still have to turtle because you are being out produced (Zerg) or the units eat yours (Protoss) then it makes it hard if not impossible to win.

---

Sounds like a perfect opportunity to break out bunker salvage and siege lines. Then just inch your way accross the map.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur

Sounds like a perfect opportunity to break out bunker salvage and siege lines. Then just inch your way accross the map.

---

lol well if that's how it works I'm glad I don't play Terran. =]

Thanks for updating this Perfe- err, Stardust.

Quote:

---

I can tell you right now thats exactly how PvT was at Blizzcon, it was almost scary to try to expand or move out of your base because if you didn't wall or stay defensive then you would get wiped out, thus allowing the other player to expand and move along the map freely because you HAVE to turtle.

---

That sounds much like you had insufficient aggression to me. The advantage of walling in and being defensive is being able to effectively harass. Get those Stalkers out there and start blowing up expos. If they try to have free access to the map, send some Warp Prisms in there to teach them that there's no such thing as free access to the map in SC2.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

That sounds much like you had insufficient aggression to me. The advantage of walling in and being defensive is being able to effectively harass. Get those Stalkers out there and start blowing up expos. If they try to have free access to the map, send some Warp Prisms in there to teach them that there's no such thing as free access to the map in SC2.

---

Geez, I can't believe im in total agreement with nicol :-/

I guess they'll be having an ice hockey game in hell tonight..

T players doesn't need to wall in all the time if they have flash's crazy micro skills, but it is better to wall since it keeps Z players out in the dark not knowing what tech the player is going for.

There really isn't a reason not to wall now though. Supply depots can submerge, the only downside to walling in SC1 was the fact that it narrowed the choke making units take longer to get out of the base but since supply depots now submerge it's only beneficial to wall.