Diablo 3 15 may

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Originally Posted by Visions of Khas

If you watch the end cinematic carefully, you'll notice that the Black Soulstone likewise disintegrates. It's hard to spot since it's already falling through a haze of clouds.

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Looking at it again...well, it does seem to disapear at least, though not outright disintergrating ala Diablo. Probably the same thing in the end.

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Originally Posted by Visions of Khas

I thought his transformation into a human was weird, since humans are essentially the Protoss-Zerg Hybrids of the Diablo world (they're called Nephalem); they're a commixture of the two sides, being more powerful than either. Maybe Tyrael can take the form of a human but just lacks that Nephalem lineage and innate power. Eh... okay.

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Well, he did take a human disguise in Demonsbane, but I see your point. I don't see Tyrael magically gaining nephalem powers by virtue of becoming mortal, but...well, it's kind of iffy why he does it at all (possibly explained in-game). Maybe by being mortal Imperius has no legal recourse per se to stop him from aiding humanity?

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Originally Posted by Visions of Khas

Not having played the game, I don't know if Malthael ever is mentioned. But he vanished from Heaven shortly after the Worldstone was destroyed. He'll probably appear in the expansion, being the big bad.

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I could see Malthael playing a role in the future. Not sure about the expansion though, whether it's simply adding to DIII's story ala Lord of Destruction or whether it'll set stuff up for the future ala Brood War. But either way, Malthael would be interesting to meet, as per going AWOL and his darkening demenour beforehand.

It is mentioned that Malthael disappeared and none knows why.

Hell finally deserves its name. Hell is fucking hell. Even the towns aren't safe.

On a completely unrelated (and slightly random) note, is it just me or does the female Wizard sound a heck of a lot like Azula (from Avatar: The Last Airbender)?

I see what you mean, but I'd have to disagree. Both are arrogant, but the wizard is at least free of psychopathic insanity.:D

Lol, actually a friend of mine noted that as well.

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does the female Wizard sound a heck of a lot like Azula (from Avatar: The Last Airbender)?

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Yeah, I think that's the point. Looks an awful like her, too.

When I finally get a rig good enough to play this game, I'm naming my Monk Aang. :D

Great...now I'm looking for the equivalent of everyone from Sokka to Momo.:confused:

And I thought me mentioning Spongebob Squarepants was bad ...

I'm pretty certain it's the same voice actress. I'm just saying that she's using the same voice for the two characters.

It is-both are voiced by Gray deLiselle.

I beat it...it was even worse than Starcraft 2...

I don't believe in anything anymore :/

I'm not mocking your opinion, but could you say why (story, gameplay, etc.)?

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Originally Posted by broodmywarcraft

...it was even worse than Starcraft 2...

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Strangely enough this qualifier makes me want to play it even more. :D

The story and writing Hawki, the gameplay was quite enjoyable

Play at your own Risk Turalyon D:

I'm pretty sure Hawki intended more specifics; i.e. what about its story and writing that was so cringe-worthy. From what I hear of the general plot, it was exactly as people had predicted (i.e. predictable) but otherwise a decent twist.

Feel free to spoiler with tags.

Not too worried about spoilers for what it's worth.

If it's being compared to Wings of Liberty...well, actually liked that game's story, so maybe Diablo III will follow suit.:D

I am asuming it's ok to talk about the story now. What is wrong with the story? It's awesome, similar fashion to Diablo 2, apart from "random character deciding the fate (marius, but maybe Zoltun Kulle can sort of take his place with the creation of the black soulstone and evil cut ending scene.

And what I really like is all those books lying everywhere, it really explains the creation of sanctuary. But actually when I think about it, there is a cliffhanger Malthael the archangel of wisdom just seemingly disappeared after the enter of Diablo in hell. And none of the other archangels knows why.
And it's still not really known what effects the destroyed worldstone have, maybe it's the humans getting power back? Or just a few getting their powers back (followers, you the hero).

And they really told us why actually hell was invading and corrupting mankind when it really was an angels vs demons fight. So I strongly disagree about the story. It was executed in a very good and entertaining way.

Lets make it clear, yes we are a site focused on the lore of a video game but the fact of the matter is: the perfect stories are not to be found in video games. Yes there can be excellent deep stories in games but the real focus of a game is to provide an enjoyable experience; not to push the boundaries of literature.

With that said, Diablo 3 story is bad if you look at it alone without the context of the game it is presented in. It's as dumb as SC2 story. But, in the context of the game itself, it is excellent. It as all the elements you need to get those epic moments and bring a sense of escalation in visuals.

Seriously, when I want a story I get it through books. Seeking it through a game which where it is gimped for the sake of gameplay has never made sense. If you don't like reading, watch a movie or a TV show.

If you want a good Diablo story, read the books. A new one came out on the 15th. You're never going to find a good story in 10 second cutscenes that heavily hindered by the game's emphasis on "rhythmic demon killing" as the developers called it.

@Tychus, you or anyone else hear any favorable reviews for Diablo: The Order? Wondering whether I should get it or not.

Now I'm only like halfway through, and I haven't played other Diablo-style games so I don't have anything else to compare this to, but I definitely don't think it's worse than SC2. Blizzard's trademark story flaws of the player-character being a god damn unstoppable badass, cheesy dialog, and the enemies uttering generic empty threats suits this type of game more than it did SC2. This was made up for IMHO with the good worldbuilding i.e. the lore lying around and all the people you can talk to. And hey, for a game where the whole point is to kill thousands of enemies with your single character, the enemies don't end up looking like such retards.

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Originally Posted by TychusFindlay

Seriously, when I want a story I get it through books. Seeking it through a game which where it is gimped for the sake of gameplay has never made sense. If you don't like reading, watch a movie or a TV show.

If you want a good Diablo story, read the books. A new one came out on the 15th. You're never going to find a good story in 10 second cutscenes that heavily hindered by the game's emphasis on "rhythmic demon killing" as the developers called it.

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Oh boy. The age old gameplay vs. story debate.

Of course, everyone has their own opinions on the topic, and I'll concede that for games, gameplay always has to come first. I'll also concede that games don't need a story to be fun, or certainly nothing more than backstory-certainly I never cared about the 'story' of Super Smash Brothers (at least for Melee, understand there's a story mode of sorts for Brawl) and I was far more concerned with Sonic beating Robotnik back in the 2D era than going into depth as to why he was doing it bar "good guy fights bad guy, have fun."

On the other hand, as I've grown older, I've found myself attracted to games with story and/or lore in them. Perhaps it's because games have become more expensive and I have to be more selective, but either way, I've come to see their value and select games based on them-even games with simple stories (ala platformers) are still good in my eyes in that there's actually a story being told within the game. This may also be due to the fact that I have to rely on lots of playthroughs due to the lack of ownership of any working current generation consoles, and I usually get console games instead of PC ones if I have a choice.

With games as a storytelling medium, I kind of see them as a bridge between movies and books, with the visuals of the former but the pacing of the latter-a movie's story generally has to be told in a few hours, while that of a game and book can go on at the player/reader's pace. On the other hand, games have to be less tightly plotted than movies due to gameplay and you're not going to get the same depth of narrative as books because they're still a visual medium. And there's also the question of how game stories might hinder gameplay-as much as I like(d) the series, I'll concede that Metal Gear's cutscenes, while doing much to tell the story, really take one out of the gameplay due to their length for instance. I think Portal and its sequel are probably the best examples of story never really getting in the way of gameplay IMO, in that it's told on the move, but this is the exception rather than the rule. From what I've heard, this is kind of similar in Diablo III, where bar cinematics and a few cutscenes, most of the story is told on the move as well, with additional lore being like a codex.

All in all, I admit that games aren't the best media in the world to tell stories. But different medias have different pros and cons, and I don't exempt games from story quality (or lack of it) if they're trying to tell a story in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Visions of Khas

you or anyone else hear any favorable reviews for Diablo: The Order? Wondering whether I should get it or not.

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Positive review on Blizzplanet (probably part of the job description though) and it seems to have good feedback on Amazon, but it's probably a bit early to gauge general feedback. That being said, if Tychus has anything to say, I'd be glad to here it-certainly it's on my 'to get' list.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

Now I'm only like halfway through, and I haven't played other Diablo-style games so I don't have anything else to compare this to, but I definitely don't think it's worse than SC2. Blizzard's trademark story flaws of the player-character being a god damn unstoppable badass, cheesy dialog, and the enemies uttering generic empty threats suits this type of game more than it did SC2. This was made up for IMHO with the good worldbuilding i.e. the lore lying around and all the people you can talk to. And hey, for a game where the whole point is to kill thousands of enemies with your single character, the enemies don't end up looking like such retards.

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which is why you should play the first two and read their manuals. Then you'll understand.

I'm too tired right now to go in-depth as to why I hate this game even more so than Starcraft 2, even though Starcraft is my favorite game story...

Maybe later in the week...

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I'm too tired right now to go in-depth as to why I hate this game even more so than Starcraft 2, even though Starcraft is my favorite game story...

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Allow me to explain to you what went wrong, even if you don't. Your expectations were too high. Diablo has never had a good story in-game. Never. It's had ambiance. It's had environments. It's had lore. It's NEVER had a good story. Diablo 1 was get to the lowest floor and kill Diablo. No story, but really epic ambience and envronments. In Diablo 2, its just a copy and pasting of 'The Gunslinger' where you follow around a hooded black-robed man who leaves demonic traps behind for you. Diablo 3 actually has a plot, and, no matter how you feel about it, the fact that there even is one is an improvement.

The thing I loved the most about Diablo series was the ambiance. Diablo 1 did this, by far the best, It really gave off the feeling of being alone and fighting demons. It was just you, maybe a party, and then a few towns folk who explained to you the horrors going on around you with epic dialogue. Diablo 2 lost this for the sake of a larger world and bigger environments. Diablo 3 is even larger and has sacrificed more. It no longer feels like a dark horror fantasy but more like a darker WarCraft. Diablo 3 is vastly improved in all areas except for ambiance, but, as much as I hate the new light artstyle, it is an absolute must for game play.

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I definitely don't think it's worse than SC2

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Diablo's never had story. Never. All of it came in the form of the manuals and side books. It had epic dialogue akin to StarCraft, but the content of that dialogue was mostly, "The demons came in the night. Ripped apart my family." It gives a GREAT feeling of ambience but it is no plot or story.

Because of this basic difference, Diablo 3 is vastly improved even if the game's story is no longer interesting because of the loss of ambiance.

I knew broodmywarcraft would have this reaction from the very moment he said he was going to focus on the SP. That's why I lulz'd at it. It makes no sense to play Diablo for the story. I bet only nostalgia has allowed you to think that Diablo has ever had a good story in-game.

In the end, the only way for Blizzard to match player's expectations in story is to move to a style of game that would allow for this. When they move to a Dragon Age style RPG framework, and can cutscene the whole game away at the expense of pacing, then you can hope for a good story and then be disappointed if you don't get it. Until then, you CANNOT and NEVER WILL get a good story in a game where you mash some buttons, from a top town perspective, and listen to NPCs for a few seconds while selling your gear in town so that you can push through a dungeon for an hour and then watch/skip a ten second cutscene told through the same isometric perspective.

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@Tychus, you or anyone else hear any favorable reviews for Diablo: The Order? Wondering whether I should get it or not.

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Nah, haven't heard anything. I'm dual reading the Night Angel and Dune series so I can't get started. I have, however, read all of the other books. And, the Sin War trilogy is as good as a tie-in to a video game could possibly be. So, if you haven't read it yet, then get it. Legacy of Blood is also decent. It is the best for ambiance since it was made during the Diablo 1 era of the lore, before the release of Diablo 2.

Oh dear, I've caught spamclickitis from Diablo 3 and double posted!

Well there are a lot of books inside the game, but maybe I'm confusing lore and story of being to close related. I've played it through a lot of times now and it still amazes me that I can find books that seems to be drawn closer to what was going on behind the scenes in Diablo 1 and Diablo 2. I know most of the books found is focused on the lore, but for example some of the different archangel books/diaries are a directly related to the story.

And the plot twist in act 2 was just hilarious. The "pretend to be evil to pretend to be good to be evil" thing was pretty fun. It became a bit obvious quite fast, but it was still a good moment in the story since it was seen that the hero you played seemed to understood she was Belial all along at about the same time you knew, but still played a long because it was best to not give information away.

I miss a information of how exactly Belial took over Caldiem though, maybe I've missed a few books there as well or didn't talk to the correct people at the correct times. I didn't play Diablo 3 for the story though, so I haven't searched every corner possible. And still it felt like I didn't have to do much to know what was going on.

@Hawki: I've been known to enjoy game stories as well. They, too, are also important to me and if its a genre that is conducive to it, I judge a game quite heavily upon that.

However, games like Diablo 3 favor gameplay so far ahead of storytelling that I just don't see why people would play it with much hopes for it. I'd rather get that from somewhere else. The same goes for most genres and games with the exception of the obvious likes of The Witcher, Mass Effect, and adventure games.

Shut up Tychus. I don't need you to tell me what went wrong, I know what went wrong, the game did.

Don't assume that it's Nostalgia on my brain regarding the first two games, I played them last year to refresh myself and they were still damn good as single player experiences.

I went into Diablo 3 expecting good dialogue, good ambiance, and overall competent writing. I was expecting the atmospheric minimalism that made the first two games so good. That is a good singleplayer experience and considering I got that from the first two games, it's not 'setting expectations too high' to expect that from the third entry.

Instead, I got a noisy, shallow, clumsy, and frankly rushed experience.

The dialogue is laughably uneven to the point of abysmal. The bosses have been turned into comedical supervillians who can never seem to shut up. Compare that to Diablo 2 where the lack of dialogue made them more terrifying and it helped you didn't get some setup cinematic nearly every DAMN time you encountered one. I'm sure Duriel would have been scarier if I knew he was coming :p

And of course there were those retcons and outside lore changes. The worst of them being that the humans were actually conceived by Angels and Demons, thus had great power within them which led to quite possibly the worst line of dialogue ever when you encounter the cult in their lair when they say no mortal could possibly have taken out so many of them. So even though a mortal managed to take out the Prime Evils and their minions years before the world stone was destroyed, somehow a 'mere mortal' can't possibly take them out. Does Metzen specialize in ruining things? I think so.

Diablo 3 is nothing more than a rehash of Diablo 2 because Metzen is the George Lucas of the Video Game in Industry, and like Lucas with the prequels, if the old stuff was successful, let's rehash it with the new stuff, because hey, it worked before.

Act 1 in Diablo 3, Tristram, Deckard Cain, and having to fight down catacombs to reach a boss.

Act 1 in Diablo 2, Tristram, Deckard Cain, and having to fight down catacombs to reach a boss.

Act 2 in Diablo 3, Desert City, a magical artifact, The Crucible, that can combine jewels, and a Mad Wizard we must seek the aide of by locating his tomb.

Act 2 in Diablo 2, Desert City, a magical artifact, The Horadric Cube, that can combine jewels, and a Mad Wizard who must seek the aide of by locating his tomb.

Act 3 in Diablo 3 is just a combination of Acts 4 and 5 of Diablo 2 in reverse, where we must battle a legion of demons in Mount Arreat and dive into hell to kill an evil.

Act 4 in Diablo 3, we must stop the Prime Evil who is leaving a path of destruction from corrupting the Crystal Arch.

Act 5 of Diablo 2, we must stop a Prime Evil who is leaving a path of destruction from corrupting the Worldstone.

And let's pop in Izual at the end for some reason because he was in the last one and thus should be in this one too.

And what is the rush part you wonder? Well, when I am with my Templar, in Act 4, he says it is good to have Tyreal by our side...there is no Tyreal...but then when Tyreal does join me, he repeats that, however, in the text box, Tyreal replies, but it is saying that the Templar replied...when it's ready my ass!!

So get off your high horse Tychus! And by the by, I suspected that you'd react like that to my reaction :p

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I don't need you to tell me what went wrong, I know what went wrong, the game did.

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You say that, then proceed to agree with me, word for word, exactly how I said it days/weeks/months ago, and then act as if I was way off base. Expecting anything more than what you got was foolish, from the beginning. No amount of sugarcoating can change that. Go read the Sin War trilogy.

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I went into Diablo 3 expecting good dialogue, good ambiance, and overall competent writing.

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Hence the problems.

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I was expecting the atmospheric minimalism that made the first two games so good.

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It was pretty obvious from the very first reveal that this was not going to happen. They first comments on the game were, "We want to expand the unverse." I know exactly what that means. Then they proceeded to explain what they had in plan for the series. I'm guessing you were busy with StarCraft 2 information back then,

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The worst of them being that the humans were actually conceived by Angels and Demons

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I knew this in 2005, when I read about the Sin War trilogy. It's been six years since this plot was explained clearly in a length novel, and you call yourself a lore fan? Apparently, there's a lot of lore you've missed so, instead of getting upset that Diablo 3 wasn't up to your expectations, you should go read the books that are out.

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So even though a mortal managed to take out the Prime Evils and their minions years before the world stone was destroyed, somehow a 'mere mortal' can't possibly take them out.

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So you consider it a plot hole when a boss says, "You will never make it out alive," and yet you do?

I can tell from the rushed speech you're using that you're cranky and tired. So I'll forgive the out burst. But, just know, I warned you how ever long ago it was that you were setting yourself up for disaster. I went into the game with realistic, clear expectations set by the previous games, and I was, again not disappointed. That is why I enjoy SC2 and D3 more than other people. Nostalgia is the ruiner of fun; not just Chris Metzen. When I first played Diablo 2, I was disappointed this the setting. It was no longer dark and terrifying and that's what the entire series is about. Therefore, how could expect anything less after seeing a screenshot?

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You say that, then proceed to agree with me, word for word, exactly how I said it days/weeks/months ago, and then act as if I was way off base. Expecting anything more than what you got was foolish, from the beginning. No amount of sugarcoating can change that. Go read the Sin War trilogy.

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I wasn't really paying attention to what you were saying the days/weeks/months before Diablo 3 because it's not about you. I was dealing with what you said at that moment.

And my expectations for Diablo 3 were already faultering after the beta and if I remember a few days or even a couple of weeks ago you saying to me that I should not be judging the game by its beta, well guess what? The beta wasn't far off.

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Hence the problems.

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So basically the only way I can expect a good experience is to to dumb down everything I held up high with the first two games? That's pretty pathetic.

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It was pretty obvious from the very first reveal that this was not going to happen. They first comments on the game were, "We want to expand the unverse." I know exactly what that means. Then they proceeded to explain what they had in plan for the series. I'm guessing you were busy with StarCraft 2 information back then,

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My expectation still holds considering they expanded from Diablo to Diablo 2, yet still maintained the atmospheric minimalism. And even the atmosphere that they did give us here is loud, shallow, and overly directed, that's not a good thing.

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I knew this in 2005, when I read about the Sin War trilogy. It's been six years since this plot was explained clearly in a length novel, and you call yourself a lore fan? Apparently, there's a lot of lore you've missed so, instead of getting upset that Diablo 3 wasn't up to your expectations, you should go read the books that are out.

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I did read up on the Sin War Trilogy, and like the Dark Templar Trilogy, despite my reservations about the changes, I was waiting to see how the game would handle the 'new lore' and it failed miserably, thus I no longer care for the outside lore because it sucks. I am a lore fan, but only of what is in the manual and the game.

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So you consider it a plot hole when a boss says, "You will never make it out alive," and yet you do?

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The point I was trying to make and honestly should have expanded upon was that apparently being ordinary mortals isn't good enough anymore and that's what ruined it. Diablo 1 and 2 were compelling because mere mortals, using nothing more than mysticism, sorcery, strength, technique, and teamwork, managed to bring down the Evils that not even Heaven could vanquish. Now humans are all really Gohan on the inside and anything they do now is tainted by that fact.

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I can tell from the rushed speech you're using that you're cranky and tired. So I'll forgive the out burst. But, just know, I warned you how ever long ago it was that you were setting yourself up for disaster. I went into the game with realistic, clear expectations set by the previous games, and I was, again not disappointed. That is why I enjoy SC2 and D3 more than other people. Nostalgia is the ruiner of fun; not just Chris Metzen. When I first played Diablo 2, I was disappointed this the setting. It was no longer dark and terrifying and that's what the entire series is about. Therefore, how could expect anything less after seeing a screenshot?

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And I can tell by this you're just an obnoxious tool. Saying Nostalgia doesn't win you an argument, you have to back it up. I told you, I played the first 2 games again after many years and they were still compelling, well written and well acted. If that's setting my standards too high, then I'd rather be bitter and stick with 'Nostalgia' than lowering myself down out of desperation for amusement.

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So even though a mortal managed to take out the Prime Evils and their minions years before the world stone was destroyed, somehow a 'mere mortal' can't possibly take them out.

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Diablo Lore 101:

• The Eternal Conflict is the never-ending war waged between Heaven and Hell, led by the Angiris Council and the Prime Evils, respectively.

• Inarius and Lilith, high-ranking members of either side, decide the Conflict is pointless and forge an alliance of angels and demons. The offspring Nephalem are pretty much Protoss-Zerg Hybrids, combining the best of each species.

• The Nephalem are dispossessed of their awesome power by the world stone.

• Centuries later, Diablo, Mephisto and Baal are killed by talented humans.

• Two decades pass; the world stone has been destroyed, allowing the Nephalem legacy to resurface.

• Prime Evil Diablo (embodiment of the most powerful evils) is vanquished by a party of Nephalem (the embodiment of the best of the best, period).

• Fin.



I like Diablo and StarCraft not because they're the embodiment of amazing stories and dialog, but because they are a distillation of all the things I love of horror-fantasy and sci-fi, respectively. The fact that D3 has a story automatically improves upon its predecessors.

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The beta wasn't far off.

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I had assumed you were talking about gameplay. If you were talking about story, that's even worse than judging its gameplay, no matter how right it turned out to be.

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yet still maintained the atmospheric minimalism

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I'd have to STRONGLY disagree there. I remember one of my first impressions of Diablo 2 being that it was almost a carebear version of Diablo 1. There was nothing like the final level of Hell or The Butcher in Diablo 2.

Just compare the game's Hell levels:




The music, the colors, the environments, the dialogue, the entire game's feeling had already begun to move towards less horror. What made Diablo great has been lost since the first one. It's been losing more and more of it since then. Hence, why I said you should have seen this coming. In fact, somehow I knew this trend would continue in 2001, when the first was released. It was proven true with Diablo 2's XP and its been proven true again. Whenever you went into town, you were told of the horrors that befell the town before you came and while you were there. There was far, far less of that in Diablo 2. In fact, there was very, very little of it. Diablo 3 is carrying on the tradition. I don't know why you're just picking up on it now.

Thankfully, its still somewhat alive in the books.

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thus I no longer care for the outside lore because it sucks

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I'm hoping your irrationality is because of a long gaming binge you've been on. This is a completely asinine statement, even if you never get to grasp it because you don't read the books. Diablo's in-game story is bad because of the gameplay hindering it. The books have no such problems, therefore, it can reach its full potential. Ignoring the books because Diablo 3 was bad is retarded, at best. It has nothing to do with it. The story in Diablo is told poorly, the story in the Sin War trilogy is told well. I was introduced to this story change in the books, and I had a difference response than you. Why? Quite possibly be because it wasn't thrown at me in some short lines of dialogue, and, instead, was built up and expanded upon over 3 books and 1500 or so pages.

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And I can tell by this you're just an obnoxious tool.

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And you're acting like a childish brat who didn't get his way. WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHH!!!! DIABLO 3 DISAPPOINTED ME, MOMMY!!! WAAAAAAAH!!!

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yet still maintained the atmospheric minimalism

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I'd have to STRONGLY disagree there. I remember one of my first impressions of Diablo 2 being that it was almost a carebear version of Diablo 1. There was nothing like the final level of Hell or The Butcher in Diablo 2.

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I have to disagree, Tychus. I much preferred Diablo 2's atmosphere. Diablo 1 was far too monotonous, therefor arguably minimalist. D2 however varied its mood; you had some relief from periods of "despair" and doom and gloom in town. This was my biggest gripe against Book of Eli; it was one-toned. As was D1.

For proper pacing and atmosphere, you need some relief. And I believe D2 struck a more balanced approach.

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thus I no longer care for the outside lore because it sucks

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Yep. I still like it.

@Vision of Khas

What I meant was that the Cult members thought that a mortal couldn't take them on. Now I may have taken a leap too far and the cult members thought they were too powerful for a mortal. If so, my bad.

@Tychus Findlay

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I had assumed you were talking about gameplay. If you were talking about story, that's even worse than judging its gameplay, no matter how right it turned out to be.

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How is it even worse? A month before release and THIS is how they're presenting their story? Pathetic.

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I'd have to STRONGLY disagree there.

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While I agree that Diablo 2 is not as Terrifying as the original, it was still minimalistic in its dialogue and atmosphere. We didn't to hear Diablo rant half a dozen times or so to get how evil he was.

"Not even Death can Save you From Me!" is better and more terrifying than all of his lines in Diablo 3 put together.

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I'm hoping your irrationality is because of a long gaming binge you've been on. This is a completely asinine statement, even if you never get to grasp it because you don't read the books. Diablo's in-game story is bad because of the gameplay hindering it. The books have no such problems, therefore, it can reach its full potential. Ignoring the books because Diablo 3 was bad is retarded, at best. It has nothing to do with it. The story in Diablo is told poorly, the story in the Sin War trilogy is told well. I was introduced to this story change in the books, and I had a difference response than you. Why? Quite possibly be because it wasn't thrown at me in some short lines of dialogue, and, instead, was built up and expanded upon over 3 books and 1500 or so pages.

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More story does not mean better story, and certainly telling someone they need to go read the books in order to get it is moronic. Games should stand on their own, or at least with the manual that comes with them. You wouldn't go into a movie and then be told, oh you had to read a half a dozen books or so in order to fully comprehend it. I don't care how good the books are, it's poor storytelling period.

And it is not asinine to draw a line in the lore. There are plenty of mediums where that happens. The Star Wars Prequels vs the Originals, Terminator 1&2 vs 3&4, Alien and Aliens Vs 3 and Resurrection, hell Mass Effect 3's ending, and that's just scratching the surface of broken bases.

And Diablo's story was not poorly told. It just wasn't spoon fed to you, held your hand, or handed you the script. Nothing in the gameplay hinders it, you were given the background, the stakes and then you executed it, it meshed perfectly with the gameplay.

Unlike Diablo 3 where you were stopped with some half assed hand drawn cinematic that just repeated what you already knew or given a cinematic prior to a boss fight.

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And you're acting like a childish brat who didn't get his way. WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHH!!!! DIABLO 3 DISAPPOINTED ME, MOMMY!!! WAAAAAAAH!!!

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Um, who was the one who ranted as me with a series of pompous assumptions because I apparently burst their overblown bubble with the comment "It was worse than Starcraft 2"?

What's the matter? Were you the master of your domain here until I came around and sewed doubt? Seriously, anyone who responses to anyone like that has ego issues.

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Originally Posted by broodmywarcraft

Um, who was the one who ranted as me with a series of pompous assumptions because I apparently burst their overblown bubble with the comment "It was worse than Starcraft 2"?

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I do not see on what planet it could be worse than WoL. Let's recap:

Hidden Content:

D3 has many major setbacks for the player:
1) A major character (Cain) dies in the first act. Leah basically dies as well. The only person to die in WoL in actual canon is Tychus (the guy who was basically working against you the whole time, he was the Adria of WoL).
2) Tyrael loses all his powers and never regains it. In WoL this would be the equivalent of recruiting Tosh only after he loses the support of his spectre army.
3) Your time spent helping Zoltun Kulle ends up being worthless since he betrays you.
4) Your time spent killing Belial and Asmodan ends up screwing you over by making Diablo only more powerful. These last two things are the equivalent of gathering the artifact in WoL only for it to fall in the wrong hands. Really, the only part of the game that wasn't in vain was putting together Tyrael's sword pieces. The entire tone of the game is sort of dark. Compare this to WoL where you basically accomplish all your stated goals as trumpets of victory and happiness play.
5) Heaven gets ransacked along with pretty much everything else. This is the equivalent of the Hyperion getting severely damaged.

Along with its share of plot twists, I think the story ended up being better than WoL. I'm probably the only one thought who didn't think it was obvious that the Emperor = Belial. I don't know, it was definitely a possibility, and maybe I'm just slow, but I bought the Emperor's explanation at the time. Also, the generic threatening banter of villains was offset by good worldbuilding and the interesting things people said in their downtime. I came to actually care about the templar and the scoundrel.

Now, with that being said, I have to agree that WoL's juvenile "you always win syndrome" is back in full-force. There was a sort of disconnect as to whether my player was a random human with exceptional talent, or God incarnate. There was no weakening rituals or anything like that for the lords of hell that you defeated. You just bitchslapped them back to the 13th layer of hell like a god damn badass. It's like...erm, what? With this kind of power you could punch a hole in God as well as the rest of the high heavens. In the meantime, the rest of the weak humans labor to hold the line against menial demonic forces. But again, and maybe my standards have been lowered by WoL, but this is sort of to be expected for a mindless dungeon-crawler clicking game.

Also, this "end of the world" crap is really getting old. I really hope Blizzard tries something else in their upcoming games. =/

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A month before release and THIS is how they're presenting their story? Pathetic.

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What do you expect from a game that puts its story behind gameplay?

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"Not even Death can Save you From Me!" is better and more terrifying than all of his lines in Diablo 3 put together.

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Agreed.

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More story does not mean better story

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Agreed.

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And Diablo's story was not poorly told.

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Agreed. Not sure if you think I said it was poorly told though ....

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It just wasn't spoon fed to you, held your hand, or handed you the script. Nothing in the gameplay hinders it, you were given the background, the stakes and then you executed it, it meshed perfectly with the gameplay.

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Agreed.

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Unlike Diablo 3 where you were stopped with some half assed hand drawn cinematic that just repeated what you already knew or given a cinematic prior to a boss fight.

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Agreed.

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certainly telling someone they need to go read the books in order to get it is moronic.

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Agreed. However, I never said, "Go read the books so you'll get the story." I said, if you want a good story in the Diablo universe go read the book. Should be obvious. You're never going to get it in the game for reasons I've stated ad nauseum. Its a simple statement yet you've missed it. How long was your gaming binge?

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I apparently burst their overblown bubble with the comment "It was worse than Starcraft 2"

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How would that burst my bubble? I agree with you. Sure, I haven't decided which story was worse: SC2 or D3, but it doesn't matter. The core meaning of your statement I agree with. They're both awful. However, only SC2 had given reason for you to be hopeful for a good story since SC1 had a good story. The Diablo series has only ever had ambiance.

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Were you the master of your domain here until I came around and sewed doubt?

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I have no idea what you are talking about or why you are going on about this. You are either exhausted, pathetically emotional, or just stupid. I especially don't know how you could sow doubt in me by AGREEING with me. The only thing we've been debating on is whether or not Blizzard had given you any reason to expect more. I've agreed many times that Diablo 3's story is crap. I just argued that you should never have gotten your hopes up to begin with. This should be incredibly obvious and your statements are so way out there that I'm hoping you're as exhausted as you seem. Or else, you're developing early stages of some psychosis or having some bad side effects from hallucinogenic drugs.

I said you were acting like a child because you're getting upset over a game and insulting someone for no reason. Both are childish qualities. Honestly, that's exactly how your post comes off as. I could totally picture you pulling your hair our or crying over how disappointed you are in the game. That's the only reason I can see for you to make this about emotions (pride, paranoia, ad hominem) when its only about reason, you must be a state of strong emotion yourself. We're talking about your unrealistic expectations and rose-tinted nostalgia glasses making you believe the Diablo series has ever had a good story and making you expect Diablo 3 to somehow be different. It was stupid of you to expect that and I told you that weeks/months ago. You don't watch the first two Indiana Jones and then expect the third one to somehow be anything more than a Hollywood-esque action movie.

Now, go get some sleep. I'd be willing to bet you'll have a good laugh at your statements once you've rested. You really are acting erratic and making strange accusations that have no basis in reality.

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You had some relief from periods of "despair" and doom and gloom in town.

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That's what I disliked about it.

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For proper pacing and atmosphere, you need some relief.

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This isn't a movie, book, or television series. It's a game meant to engross me in its world. You can't do that if it all of a sudden loses what made it interesting to begin with. Diablo's gameplay was originally based around feeling week and powerless against hordes of terrifying mosnters. Diablo 1 did that admirably. Diablo 2 began the transition towards a more dark fantasy instead of horror fantasy. I enjoyed it immensely, but not as much as the original. Partly because it was losing its uniqueness from other worlds. Now, I can barely tell the difference between Diablo 3 and WarCraft during the Burning Legion eras of the lore.

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Diablo's gameplay was originally based around feeling week and powerless against hordes of terrifying mosnters.

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And by hordes of demons, you mean, uh... the piles of bodies littering the floor?

Yep. Weak. Right.



This is just me, but I hated the music of Diablo 1, though it did serve its purpose. I felt like I was in a dank cellar alone. All by my lonesome. And yes, it would have been nice if there had been a little more of this in D2. But people naturally become desensitized of fear and foreboding, so though this isn't a movie or book that same ambient story-telling principle applies. It was the lack of variety in D1 that bored me.

Now, I haven't played D3 yet -- and god help me I will at my earliest convenience -- but I agree that the worlds of Blizzard are starting to converge. I swear, the cosmologies of WarCraft and Diablo could almost seamlessly mesh at this point, especially if you've read the Book of Cain. Christ. -.-


Now excuse me as I go terrify myself in the Creepy subReddit. All this talk of terror has made me hungry.

Again with the Nostalgia attack Tychus, knock it off! I've already told you time and time again, I played the games recently, they still hold up. That's the difference between good and bad Nostalgia. The Lion King came out recently, and I watched it again, and it still held up. And yeah, the Third Indiana Jones movie was an action movie, but it had good acting and writing to back it up :p

And telling me I'm on drugs, in early stages of psychosis, or lacking sleep, is not really an effective counter argument, it's just a cheap attack. I'm not on drugs, my mental state seems fine, and I actually overslept a little today. I expected more from you :p

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Agreed. Not sure if you think I said it was poorly told though ....

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I reread your post, you said the in-game story was bad because the gameplay hindered it, not that the Diablo's story was poorly told. My bad, but regardless, I disagree though, and I responded above.

And unrealistic expectations? Do you even know what I was expecting? After knowing about the various retcons, lore changes, and Starcraft 2, I was expecting crap, but I didn't think it was going to be this bad. I tried holding out hope that there may have been something, anything, that would compel me to think otherwise, but it didn't.

And what would have been wrong to at least expect something along the lines of the last two games? Was that unrealistic? What? I should just accept crap and try to enjoy it? Is that the standard you've set and you're attacking me in order to prove you made the right call?

And if I seem emotional, it's because I care and that's Blizzard's greatest accomplishment, was to make me care about the universe and its characters and to see a company once known for quality storytelling fall so far is just sad.

What exactly are you trying to get at here? You keep trying to paint me as a whiny child yet all I see is a whiny brat telling me what my problems are and how I should really be thinking. You insulted me when you went off on that rant Tychus! What did you expect when you treat someone like they don't know any better? You're gonna get flak!

And my hair is fine :p

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Originally Posted by Visions of Khas

I have to disagree, Tychus. I much preferred Diablo 2's atmosphere. Diablo 1 was far too monotonous, therefor arguably minimalist. D2 however varied its mood; you had some relief from periods of "despair" and doom and gloom in town. This was my biggest gripe against Book of Eli; it was one-toned. As was D1.

For proper pacing and atmosphere, you need some relief. And I believe D2 struck a more balanced approach.

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Agreed, though I will say Diablo 1's overbearing claustrophobia scared the pants off me at night.

And I liked the Book of Eli, though you do have a point about the tone. The action was quite good though.

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Yep. I still like it.

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They have their moments. Zeratul and Kerrigan in the Dark Templar Saga are actually better than their game counterparts in SC2.