TeamLiquid.net Article: Zerg & Larva Injection

It's a good point that you can now have much bigger clumps of units, however I will respectfully disagree about the difficulty in hitting mutas in the original game.

A good zerg will only ever take serious damage with his mutalisks if he screws up badly, or you have something like 5-6 templars.

As I said, I'll reserve judgement until I've actually played. People don't seem to get HTs very often from the gameplay reports I've read, but that is probably because of the scarcity of gas more than anything else.

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Originally Posted by FrozenArbiter

As I said, I'll reserve judgement until I've actually played. People don't seem to get HTs very often from the gameplay reports I've read, but that is probably because of the scarcity of gas more than anything else.

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Okay, can someone actually explain this to me...?

Isn't the amount of gas the exact same? 5000 (over two geysers instead of one)? Or does the new pathing not help gas gathering as much as it did mineral gathering?

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Originally Posted by flabortast

Maybe because Psi-Storm is stronger now? Blizzard seems to have made Psi Storm do even more damage per interval than the old Psi Storms. In SC1, storm dodging is to minimize damage. Now it seems storm dodging is about not getting fried instantly. Can anyone confirm how long the new Psi Storm lasts on the field?

EDIT: So I checked and the new Psi Storm does deal more damage than the old one. It also deals it faster so dodging the storm altogether is more important than before.

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As i said, lower the damage, but don't take timing away from the player!!!. God, rising the damage and adding delay is the stupidest thing they could do...

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Originally Posted by Aldrius

Okay, can someone actually explain this to me...?

Isn't the amount of gas the exact same? 5000 (over two geysers instead of one)? Or does the new pathing not help gas gathering as much as it did mineral gathering?

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All reports state there is never enough gas. The only logical explanation is the pathing.

Yup gas is the big problem, you are forced to expand more quickly than it was in SC1.

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Originally Posted by spychi

Yup gas is the big problem, you are forced to expand more quickly than it was in SC1.

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Thats the point. They are trying to make gas more limited.

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Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur

Thats the point. They are trying to make gas more limited.

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As I have said before, you're quoting them wrong.

Blizzard wants to make gas more important. Limiting it is the best solution they've found so far, but it is not their preferred solution.

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Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid

As I have said before, you're quoting them wrong.

Blizzard wants to make gas more important. Limiting it is the best solution they've found so far, but it is not their preferred solution.

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Exactly. They are trying to make gas more important by limiting it. Did I say something contrary to that?

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Originally Posted by Norfindel

As i said, lower the damage, but don't take timing away from the player!!!. God, rising the damage and adding delay is the stupidest thing they could do...

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It's not like the delay is random, so the timing is still under player control.

Now, you may certainly be right and the spell would be better without the delay, but I think I know what they were going for - they were trying to make it into much more of a skill-break ability. In other words if you are a master Storm user, your enemy will have to expend just as much skill and micro to evade, or else his units will just all die, since the storm does more damage and does it faster.

However, it's definitely true that storm-dodging is already a skill most pros have, so this change might make it far too easy. But I guess we'll find out in the beta.

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Exactly. They are trying to make gas more important by limiting it. Did I say something contrary to that?

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They're not trying to make gas more limited, they've already done that.

They're trying to make it more important. There is indeed a difference.

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However, it's definitely true that storm-dodging is already a skill most pros have, so this change might make it far too easy. But I guess we'll find out in the beta.

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I agree about the skill-break part, that's definitely what I think they're doing.
Secondly, it's all a balancing act. In SC1 yes other pros could storm dodge but they'd still take damage. In SC2 if storm is as strong as it is now without the delay, (and don't anyone forget about smart cast) it will devastate units whether you're good at storm dodging or not.

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Originally Posted by Pandonetho

They're trying to make it more important.

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...by limiting it.

sigh sometimes I think you guys just love to argue.

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...by limiting it.

sigh sometimes I think you guys just love to argue.

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There's a difference between the two though. "They're trying to make it more important" goes beyond just limiting it. Limiting it is just one route.

"They're trying to limit it" doesn't exactly outline their goal. Limiting it isn't the only way to make it important. Also, limiting it doesn't require any trying, you just limit it...

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Originally Posted by sulik

What's wrong with delayed attack? It's the same as Flame Strike in WC3, and so far it's good.

For me i'm good with the change. Anticipation should be something important in competitive sport.

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The problem with a delayed attack is the fact when you make a decision to use an ability, its usually because you've seen a situation where that ability will be good for. Things change so quickly in starcraft that even a second delay will cause the scenario that you are looking at to be not so appealing anymore.

It's very hard to anticipate which omnidirectional choice your enemy is going to decide on after he sees your High Templar. I would much rather use an ability thats weak and have the effect I want happen instantly when I see a good time to use it, rather than having something be really strong but completely miss what I was going for. That's the whole point of Real-time. Its not that you wont have to wait for something, because obviously you have to wait until you get to an enemy unit or base to be able to kill something belonging to your enemy. The part that makes this delay retarded for a real-time strategy game is your decisions are suppose to happen instantly, not wait for a certain period of time first.

The person that mentioned unit queue would have a better analogy if he said there was a delay between you clicking build, and the building actually starting to build the unit, which there isnt.

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Things change so quickly in starcraft that even a second delay will cause the scenario that you are looking at to be not so appealing anymore.

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Yes. That's why it's a nerf. That doesn't explain why it's bad.

So you have to anticipate when using Psi Storm. Personally, I like it. It makes it more of a skill than just your ability to click. You have to scout your enemy's forces; you have to know in advance when they're coming in. And so on. It can't just be used as a purely reactionary "murder stuff now" ability.

And again, the delay is not that long.

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The part that makes this delay retarded for a real-time strategy game is your decisions are suppose to happen instantly, not wait for a certain period of time first.

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Total nonsense. Any number of decisions in an RTS game take a while to manifest. That's the entire basis of a timing attack: you're attacking someone at a point where they've made some decision, but the benefits of that decision have not yet materialized. They started the Dragoon Range upgrade, but it isn't finished yet. And so on.

Reaper mines have a delay between laying them and them exploding. Yamato has always had a delay between when you tell it to fire and when it actually does. And so on.

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The person that mentioned unit queue would have a better analogy if he said there was a delay between you clicking build, and the building actually starting to build the unit, which there isnt.

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Um, why? It still takes a fixed quantity of time for the unit to be built. Just as it takes a fixed quantity of time for Yamato Cannon to be fired. Just as it takes a fixed quantity of time for Psi Storm to be cast. Just as it takes a fixed quantity of time for a SC1 Dragoon to fire its weapon (between the moment you tell it to fire and the bolt actually launches). Hell, there are many attacks that take time between the firing and when the bullet actually hits. Some don't take time (Marines, Hydras, etc), but some do (Goliath missiles, Turrets, Photon Canons, etc).

How is this any different?

People... it's a damn fixed-area damage-over-time spell. It must not have any pre-casting delay... Seriously, this is very basic stuff.

I'll try to explain it better: pre-casting delays are commonly used when a spell does instant effect and/or cannot be avoided in any way, like Spawn Broodlings. That's to give the enemy player a chance to see what's coming, and try to do something about it, like killing the caster, or something.

Used in a spell like Psi Storm doesn't makes any sense, as you would need to predict where the enemy units would be after the dumb delay, and because the spell can already be dodged.

If you want to make Psi Storm less destructive, you can lower the damage and/or spread it over a larger amount of time, so it's easier to dodge the effects.

Adding a delay just masks the player's skill, makes the spell unwieldy, instead of weaker, and introduces a luck factor.

^^ yeah this exactly. imagine how much of a bitch it will be to aim with lag.

My last, deleted post was not meant to be inflammatory. It is quite clear to myself and many others that Archer has a severe lack of the concepts of semantics and logical follow-through. If someone could help me explain to him these concepts it would benefit everyone here.

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I'll try to explain it better: pre-casting delays are commonly used when a spell does instant effect and/or cannot be avoided in any way, like Spawn Broodlings. That's to give the enemy player a chance to see what's coming, and try to do something about it, like killing the caster, or something.

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Except that that's totally untrue. Spawn Broodling's delay is in how long it takes the little shot to reach the target, not how long it takes for that shot to be fired. Once the shot is fired, the target is guaranteed to die. The target might be able to do something in that time (fire off a Psi Storm at its killer, etc). But it will die and there is nothing you can do to stop it.

The same thing goes for Yamato. BCs are a 500 Hp monster; one additional second is very unlikely to give you the time you need to kill it (unless you're using Yamato yourself, or some other high-damage attack).

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Used in a spell like Psi Storm doesn't makes any sense, as you would need to predict where the enemy units would be after the dumb delay, and because the spell can already be dodged.

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No, the spell can't be dodged. What can happen is that you can mitigate some of its effects by moving some of the units out of the way once it's fired. But when Psi Storm happens, units will take damage. Just as sure as the unit Yamato targets will get hit, or as sure as the unit Broodling targets will die. Units that are under the area of Psi Storm will be hurt. Units in the center of that area are similarly guaranteed to be hurt more. There is nothing that you can do to avoid that damage entirely.

What this delay does is make Psi Storm less effective against fast movers like Zerglings and Mutalisks. It makes it something that is best used against ranged ground units, rather than a general purpose "kill everything" spell. It also makes the Protoss player more careful in their use of Psi Storm; they need to scout the enemy more and see attacks coming from farther away to counter-balance the delay. This is good. It focuses the effect on particular kinds of units.

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Adding a delay just masks the player's skill, makes the spell unwieldy, instead of weaker, and introduces a luck factor.

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What luck? There's no random effect happening. The delay is a fixed length, and thus easily predictable by both sides.

And how does it mask skill? It just requires different skills. Rather than firing it at where your Zerglings are and auto-hitting them, I must now predict where your Zerglings will be. Or maybe I just use smart-cast and blanket the area with mass Psi Storm.

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yeah this exactly. imagine how much of a bitch it will be to aim with lag.

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I don't see what the problem is. What is intrinsically wrong with being "a bitch" to aim with?

I agree with Nicol, Psi Storm is now even stronger, but you got to know when will you use it, otherwise you will miss. And with Smart Casting it is easy to cast 10 Storms and kills whole Zerg army so this change is needed. And I agree they could lower the damage, but Blizzard wanted Psi Storm to be the same as SC1, incredibly strong weapon in hands of good player.

lol someday people will realize just how beneficial the "outdated UI" was to Starcraft 1 gamplay. Not saying it needs to stay for Starcraft 2 but there were allot of positive things that came out of having to "fight the UI."

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someday people will realize just how beneficial the "outdated UI" was to Starcraft 1 gamplay. Not saying it needs to stay for Starcraft 2 but there were allot of positive things that came out of having to "fight the UI."

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Only by accident. Intentional gameplay is always preferred to accidents.

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

Only by accident. Intentional gameplay is always preferred to accidents.

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I guess. Still given the choice between a spell that is so hard that I cast it slowly and a spell that is easy but I am forced to cast it slowly I think im inclined to take the hard one. At least if I work hard enough at the first I can cast it faster.

Likewise its great that the computer mines for me but now if I want to get a bigger army then my opponent there is no way for me to do so. I would rather that I be the limitation rather then the game impose an artificial limitiation.

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

Yes. That's why it's a nerf. That doesn't explain why it's bad.

So you have to anticipate when using Psi Storm. Personally, I like it. It makes it more of a skill than just your ability to click. You have to scout your enemy's forces; you have to know in advance when they're coming in. And so on. It can't just be used as a purely reactionary "murder stuff now" ability.

And again, the delay is not that long.



Total nonsense. Any number of decisions in an RTS game take a while to manifest. That's the entire basis of a timing attack: you're attacking someone at a point where they've made some decision, but the benefits of that decision have not yet materialized. They started the Dragoon Range upgrade, but it isn't finished yet. And so on.

Reaper mines have a delay between laying them and them exploding. Yamato has always had a delay between when you tell it to fire and when it actually does. And so on.



Um, why? It still takes a fixed quantity of time for the unit to be built. Just as it takes a fixed quantity of time for Yamato Cannon to be fired. Just as it takes a fixed quantity of time for Psi Storm to be cast. Just as it takes a fixed quantity of time for a SC1 Dragoon to fire its weapon (between the moment you tell it to fire and the bolt actually launches). Hell, there are many attacks that take time between the firing and when the bullet actually hits. Some don't take time (Marines, Hydras, etc), but some do (Goliath missiles, Turrets, Photon Canons, etc).

How is this any different?

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Theres a huge difference between yamato cannon, and the mines compared to PSI storm.

1) Yamato cannon when started will find its target no matter what, psi storm will not find the group of units you are originally trying to hit because by the time it hits, the units will have moved.

2) Mines are used knowing that they can be killed off before they are destroyed, the whole point is to drop as many as you can and hope to do as much damage as possible, except its not a delay to throw the mine, its a delay before it explodes. Mines will likely be used on buildings, which wont be able to move out of the way before the mines hit, while PSI storm is used on a mass invading army, in which if you miss, you are in one hell of a bad situation.

Not to mention HT's werent exactly super powered units, as it was quite easy to pick them off. Now it will be even easier as they will hesitate before they use psi storm. Try picking off a BC before it uses its yamato cannon... just a tiny bit more difficult, and since reapers mines are sent instantly after clicking a target as long as its close enough, you cant even pick them off before the mines are thrown.

Additionally, Reaper mines are meant for sabotage and harassment, while PSI storm is mostly going to be used for defending against large armies, something you certainly want to make the most of.

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Likewise its great that the computer mines for me but now if I want to get a bigger army then my opponent there is no way for me to do so. I would rather that I be the limitation rather then the game impose an artificial limitiation.

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That only shows that the StarCraft resourcing model itself is broken. Because if your ability to do a brainless, mechanical task best suited to a computer is the definition of "good," then something is seriously wrong with your core game design.

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Not to mention HT's werent exactly super powered units, as it was quite easy to pick them off.

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Really? It's funny how picking off HTs almost never happened in SC1, yet it was "quite easy" to do so.

Indeed, the only effective unit for actually killing HTs before they fire off their Psi Storms were Mutalisks. And even those were basically guaranteed to be forfeit when you try to take them out, thanks to instant Psi Storm damage and the prevalence of Dragoons.

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Reaper mines are meant for sabotage and harassment

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Yeah, and the Scout was meant to be a Scout. What something's meant to be and what it eventually gets used as have only rarely been similar.

Reaper mines will be used where the Terran player can use them. We saw them employed in actual battle in BR2.

Hmmmm...

The discussion in this thread, while lively, is mostly off topic.

A new TeamLiquid forum post on Karune's Protoss counter to 1-Hatch Queen:

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/view...opic_id=101510

This TeamLiquid forum post speaks of first-hand experience vs. 1-Hatch Queen at PAX 2009. Additionally, Karune has provided his interpretation of the Zerg situation in addition to his preferred counter-play when fielding Protoss. Karune downplays the significance of 1-Hatch Queen and states that a Protoss ~wall-in can lead to a balanced Protoss vs. 1-Hatch Queen game.

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

That only shows that the StarCraft resourcing model itself is broken. Because if your ability to do a brainless, mechanical task best suited to a computer is the definition of "good," then something is seriously wrong with your core game design.

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There were some bad things about the SC1 macro system but there were also allot of good things. Being able to out compete the opponent economically definatly equals good.

And with psi storm, I would consider the user lag time like in SC1 better then this new artificial lag time.

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

Really? It's funny how picking off HTs almost never happened in SC1, yet it was "quite easy" to do so.

Indeed, the only effective unit for actually killing HTs before they fire off their Psi Storms were Mutalisks. And even those were basically guaranteed to be forfeit when you try to take them out, thanks to instant Psi Storm damage and the prevalence of Dragoons.

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Well, maybe you almost never could kill HTs, but I found picking them off pretty easy, and im not even that good at the game. All you have to do is surround them with any unit, on the ground works best as they cant run away. Most of the time they will cast psi storm as you run toward them, usually casting psi-storm on the HT itself. Sometimes there was a bit of a cast delay in the original game, mostly because of the pathing and bugginess of sc. An intentional delay will create many more situations where you accidentally click a unit coming toward your HT, rather than the ground, and by the time the storm actually hits, it will hit both that unit and your HT.

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Well, maybe you almost never could kill HTs, but I found picking them off pretty easy, and im not even that good at the game

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Usually when people talk about SC1 examples, they're talking about the professionals which I assume Nicol is doing.

Second, SC1 probably isn't even balanced unless you take it to the highest degree of skill. The only reason why people claim SC1 is balanced is because of the pro scene, I highly doubt the "perfect" balance is there for casuals.

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An intentional delay will create many more situations where you accidentally click a unit coming toward your HT, rather than the ground, and by the time the storm actually hits, it will hit both that unit and your HT.

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What? How does an intentional delay affect AT ALL your ability to click something? Just because the storm has a minor delay coming out, does not suddenly mean your hand eye coordination skills went down the drain.

Second of all, is the only reason why you are complaining about a minor delay is because you're too scared to adapt? Honestly.

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Originally Posted by Santrega

Well, maybe you almost never could kill HTs, but I found picking them off pretty easy, and im not even that good at the game. All you have to do is surround them with any unit, on the ground works best as they cant run away.

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Ahahahah And yeah of course Protoss will have ONLY HTs and not 20 Zealots, 3 Archons and 10 Dragoons... This made my day.

By your logic, picking BCs are even easier, just make 100 Devourers and you will see how BCs melt, ROFL!

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Originally Posted by Pandonetho

Usually when people talk about SC1 examples, they're talking about the professionals which I assume Nicol is doing.

Second, SC1 probably isn't even balanced unless you take it to the highest degree of skill. The only reason why people claim SC1 is balanced is because of the pro scene, I highly doubt the "perfect" balance is there for casuals.

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Well you'd be assuming wrong, as its clear from all of nicol's arguments that he knows absolutely nothing about the pro scene.

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Originally Posted by Pandonetho

What? How does an intentional delay affect AT ALL your ability to click something? Just because the storm has a minor delay coming out, does not suddenly mean your hand eye coordination skills went down the drain.

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I never suggested it would make any difference toward your ability to click something. The problem lies in the fact that the point you are clicking is constantly changing, and in terms of using psi storm is usually in between many units. When these units are on the move its increasingly difficult to hit the ground in between them, and especially so while those units are rushing toward your own army, or unlucky HT.

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Originally Posted by Pandonetho

Second of all, is the only reason why you are complaining about a minor delay is because you're too scared to adapt? Honestly.

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It's not that im afraid to adapt, as this is not an argument against an improved user interface as that argument was used for in the past. This is a poor attempt to balance an ability, in my opinion.

If it makes it into the final stages of the game, than I have no choice but to accept it and adapt, but I plan to make it absolutely clear to you and to whomever I talk to that I do not like this one particular change. I don't like the fact that an instant decision such as where to use an ability has become a delayed reaction to that decision. I like the fast acting and reacting games involved in starcraft, where its not a hope to get lucky action, but a strategic action.

They removed being able to block attacks on high ground and behind obstacles because it added luck, now they add luck to trying to hit your opponent with an ability? It makes very little sense.

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Originally Posted by Ramiz

Ahahahah And yeah of course Protoss will have ONLY HTs and not 20 Zealots, 3 Archons and 10 Dragoons... This made my day.

By your logic, picking BCs are even easier, just make 100 Devourers and you will see how BCs melt, ROFL!

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I think you took what I said just a tad bit too far. I have had situations where i've had to run a few units around an army to get to the high templars in the back. Most of the time it only takes a few to slow down and interfere with the HTs path while you kill it, and this is what I meant.

The truth is that Storm has been buffed overall. Forcefield, Obelisk energy charge and Smartcast,anti-grav, the HT´s own Temporal rift(last we heard it´s soemwhat like a single target stasis?) and Vortex are just a few examples.

The delay IS a nerf but it doesn´t change how the storm actually works and is applied. Cast the storm where the enemy units will be most of the time within the next seconds anticipating a dodge attempt. Dodging though has been buffed, fast units and a good player can negate Stormdamage completely. The idea isn´t "lots of damage (thats Scarabs)" but "force the enemy to move".

Even in SC:BW Storm was on it´s own just ineffective, people are too good at dodging and HT´s to expensive to storm enough to compensate damagewise (I again remind you of the obelisks charge capability).

This article is eye opening. The early-mid game is the most important. Many strategies should be viable. With the Zerg having a "best build" to start off with, it severely hinders the variety of strategies. In BW, you could do many different builds and still be viable in the mid-late game. With 1 Hatch Queen being so powerful, all other strategies will have to be built around surviving it. The ability will be nerfed, but the problem still remains.

All races should have multiple viable build orders to start off with. FE, early rush, fast tech, etc. I hope that SC2 brings all of these to the table, with new variations and completely refreshing iterations.

For everyone saying that Zerg plays the same, you are wrong. Being able to go toe-to-toe with Terran or Protoss without having being an expansion ahead completely changes the way the races interact. 1 Hatch Queen Hydra producing at 2.5 Hatch rate is imposing. I hope a balance is found.

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I like the fast acting and reacting games involved in starcraft, where its not a hope to get lucky action, but a strategic action.

They removed being able to block attacks on high ground and behind obstacles because it added luck, now they add luck to trying to hit your opponent with an ability? It makes very little sense.

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lol? Care to elaborate on how it's suddenly involving luck?

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Originally Posted by Pandonetho

lol? Care to elaborate on how it's suddenly involving luck?

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Sigh, if you can't see how clicking and hoping the enemy ends up where you clicked a few seconds ago involves luck without my elaboration, I think you choose not to see it, and thus any explanation will be just a plain waste of time. I accept that you dont agree with me, but my intention never was to convince you.

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Sigh, if you can't see how clicking and hoping the enemy ends up where you clicked a few seconds ago involves luck

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1) lol, few seconds ago? Are you seriously implying that there are a FEW SECONDS of delay between casting the spell and having it actually take effect?

2) It's called predicting where your opponent will go, exactly how is this different from SC1? If units are just standing still and attacking, it won't make a BIT of difference except for the fact that storm will be even more devastating. If units are constantly moving, it's a matter of adapting to that short delay and predicting where your opponent will move, which is *GASP* exactly what you had to do with storm in SC1.

Unless you're suggesting that now opponents will know where you plan on casting storm before it takes effect and that you have to hope they walk into it. Your argument fails. This storm is no different from SC1 except for requiring some adapation to use it.

Don't forget that with smart casting you can easily blanket large areas with storm.

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Originally Posted by Pandonetho

1) This storm is no different from SC1 except for requiring some adapation to use it.

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If it requires adaptation, its different. This quote pretty much sums up your response filled with "its not different", "its only a little different" "it requires adaptation".

Yeah, thats kinda the point, I think its stupid different. You don't have to dislike it, I'm just pointing out that I believe its stupid and I personally dislike it. Whether or not you feel I should dislike it is completely irrelevant.

What is relevant is I could possibly end up liking this after playing the game, which is fine. Right now I dislike it, after playing it maybe I wont. Considering im not closed-minded, it wont take much playing time to change my mind about it, if it indeed is a good thing.

Right, so instead of actually arguing my points you just pull 1 thing out of my post.

So exactly how is it so different that causes you to dislike it so much?

As I pointed out, the application of it is exactly the same as it is in SC1.

Storm moving opponents, guess what, you have to predict where they go in SC1!
Storm opponents that are not moving but attacking, guess what, a half a second or a second delay isn't going to change anything!

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Originally Posted by Rake

Don't forget that with smart casting you can easily blanket large areas with storm.

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Word~

I think the main reason gas seems so limited is because minerals are so available.

Anyway, if we're genuinely curious about psi storm, we should ask the blues tomorrow.