Patch 1.4.0

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No, when going for a standard protoss macro build, you don't just get a sentry.

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When you're 2-basing, especially on maps that you can cannon off of, yeah. But, that's not what we're talking about, is it.

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If a zerg only sees 1 sentry at a point in the game where the P " should " have at least 3-4, he will suspect some kind of funky 1 base play.

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Sure, a genius Zerg player on the level of July might, but, for the lesser Zerg players, maybe there not being a big ass nexus next to the natural expansion minerals would give it away :D

I'm pretty sure you've lost track of what we're (at least what I am) talking about.

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Originally Posted by TychusFindlay

Sure, a genius Zerg player on the level of July might, but, for the lesser Zerg players, maybe there not being a big ass nexus next to the natural expansion minerals would give it away :D

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No, your average diamond zerg player is sure as hell able to do that :P

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Originally Posted by TychusFindlay

I'm pretty sure you've lost track of what we're (at least what I am) talking about.

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Yeah, sorry for derailing this debate. It turned from talking about how significant the blink nerf is, to discussing the viability of 1 basing in PvZ.

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No, your average diamond zerg player is sure as hell able to do that :P

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It's called sarcasm.

i almost cant tell how far you're goign with your sarcasm Tychus, just incase anyone reading isnt clear on how it goes, ill just point out that the buildup of the sentry count generally happens before this macro-Protoss plants the nexus..

seeing the absence of the nexus is obviously a tell, but it happens later, when it mgiht be too late to react optimally (esp if threes a risk that a probe has been able to sneak a proxy pylon up; a 4gate may be in full swing any second) ... and then tehre is the risk of the nexus-cancel mind-trick to potentially turn this tell-or-no-tell nexus spotting buisnis on its head.


... this whole debacle has me thinking about protoss potential for scout-denial vs Z; hen/how it can be done and what the tradeoffs are. i geuss everything hinges on the metabolicboost timing; if its late enough stalkers should be able to make early ling-scouitng a pricey endeavour!

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i almost cant tell how far you're goign with your sarcasm Tychus

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Otherwise out of place smilies and tongue-in-cheek or out-of-character illogical statements should be your first clue when I'm being sarcastic or joking. (To clarify: not trying to be a smart-ass here :D)

Anyways, back on subject, its easy to stop a player from being able to tell how many Sentries you have. Unless they try to ram a bunch of Zerglings up your ramp, there's not much reason for your Sentry(s) to be at the front anyways, especially if you can be slick with your pylons, but, if they have enough Zerglings to take care of your block enough to make you need to force field, then you probably should just transition into an expansion since they were probably planning on early aggression anyways. Sometimes I have to do that.

But, we're getting side tracked here, the key is to simply make your early Blinker rush look like a standard 4gate into Nexus which I've found is effortless to do regardless of any scouting the Zerg does, at least in time to stop me. Other than that, just be tight with your timings and micro. Almost nothing else matters, really, at least until the metagame changes or this strategy becomes a common metagame-counter. It all comes down to your timings and, mostly, your micro. Which, I'm guessing, is why it's not popular at Diamond and lower. And, not used in Masters because the Zerg are much more adaptable at that skill level, and your Stalker micro has to be quite a bit better than your opponents since they're constantly reinforcing their units and you aren't as much.

In summation, a Zealot and a Stalker at your front isn't a tell-tale sign, in my opinion. Sure, it narrows the suspected builds from your opponent, but there's still enough options that a Zerg player won't immediately assume Blinkers, especially since, when I random as Zerg, I never see a Protoss go fast 1-base Blinkers against me so I doubt its very common. I even had to make this build order up myself without any pro-replay help. And, like you said, I usually pretend to be expanding before I push out. That's not hard to pull off unless its on a map where the Overlord can hide easily out of Stalker range but within vision of the Nexus.

I see no reason for a Zerg to start massing up units just because of those two units. Naturally, yes, they're going to be tiny bit more suspicious, but that's normal metagaming and that's not what I'm counting on, especially since Zerg players usually throw down some Spines instead of making more Roaches or Zerglings, which makes it all the better for me sine Blinkers are designed to get around such defenses. What I'm counting on is them not stopping Drone production to mass up units, which I'm not sure I've ever seen them do when I decide to go fast Blinkers. Zerg players typically like to stick to their flavor of the month build orders which tends to be heavily macro oriented and it takes an obvious smack in the face for them to decide that they need to start massing units instead of macroing if its not at a point in time that the pre-set build order had already planned.

Maybe it's because I'm only playing against medium-high Diamond players at the moment, but, I've never had a problem with a Zerg figuring out my moves at this point in the metagame. Maybe it's because they're Diamond or because my MMR is somewhat lower than it should be because just about every Terran game I get now involves some kind of all-in when I'm Protoss, which I do often times lose.

-- As for my Nexus comment, I'll admit all of this back and forth with various strategies and apects of each had me confused. I meant to say that, there not being a Nexus there is a clear indiciation that there's not some early 2-base macro fast expand with Forge build. So, my apologies for that. It seems my sarcasm was unfounded this time.

tl:dr

No need to be so butthurt about our last conversation :D

I always think it's about the patch 1.4 changes, then I see the conversation and I totally forget what you are even talking about. Then I try to read back, but I just get more confused.

If youre actually hiding your first few sentries (or "would-be sentry" gateway units past the first two) then it becomes important how the zerg manoeuvres at your front to keep looking; whats coming out of your gateway? is anything changing? ... if it stays confused, itll probably sacrifice the overlord early, because knowing where your early gas is going is critical.

... we're not part of the same ladder population so i can only really say that it seems the NA PvZ metagame seems different than the EU one (at least how i left it) ... i think i understand your position overall; if you're predominantly facing zergs that react somewhat greedily to what you generally show them and defend predominantly by crawlers, i understand how & why your onebase blink build works, but form the zerg perspective, i would most definitely not attribute a loss to this to any disparity in micromanagement, but a case of insignificant scouting and/or misread and/or under-preparation / too narrow defensive priorities in the face of known and possible threats.

... personally i rarely rellied THAT heavily on crawlers for defense, iirc, at one point one-base timings were so common on certain maps that i made a habit of stopping at about half saturation on the nat while stockpiling larva and scouting extensively & continually to learn if it was safe to drone /tech / get more gas/take a third etc..

... So if your opponent is suspicious enough and has a feel for what drone-count to safely pause at, youre not gonna brake him even if all he does is a-move with 50 apm; yuu might have a cost effective fight and escape largely unscathed, but even then you'll probably be on even footing at best in the next sequence.


... long story short, i geuss this means i consider one-base-blink a cheese build PvZ; it rellies on your opponent fucking up in not playing safe enough, though, playing zerg safe can be hard, especially if kept deep in the dark.



... its refreshing to read that and type this out; i havnt really thought about ZvP matters in quite a while.

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i would most definitely not attribute a loss to this to any disparity in micromanagement, but a case of insignificant scouting and/or misread and/or under-preparation / too narrow defensive priorities in the face of known and possible threats.

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Early Zerg units don't have much micro to them so I'm mostly talking about micro from the aggressive Protoss (i.e. blink back the Stalkers at the right time, kite Zerglings, line up roaches, etc.) If you screw up your micro and lose more Stalkers than you should have, you've effectively lost. Personally, that's why I think its not very popular. It's a very effective strategy (atm) if done correctly but its hard to do correctly.

But, I'm not sure I've ever had a Zerg be able to scout well enough to be able to call it "a known and possible threat." For all they know, I'm going Void Ray harass, which is faaaaaaaaar more common, and requires more Queens and Spore Colonies (aka easy picking for Stalkers). So, what they make to prevent a Void Ray harass actually helps me. Sometimes I'll waltz into a base and all they have are 2-3 Spore Colonies, 2-3 Queens, and a few other minor units.

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playing zerg safe can be hard, especially if kept deep in the dark

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Its very hard because they see nothing and there's so many viable strategies against Zerg that a Protoss could go. Furthermore, a Zerg must macro heavy in the early game to overpower a Protoss so the Zergs just get used to the risk, in my opinion.

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i geuss this means i consider one-base-blink a cheese build PvZ

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It mostly certainly is. It relies heavily on luck/scouting and it either works very well or you might as well just GG. It's definitely a cheese, just not one that is idiotic and a free ticket to Masters. It takes skill :D

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I always think it's about the patch 1.4 changes

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. . . It is about patch 1.4 changes.

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Then I try to read back, but I just get more confused.

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What's your point? Are you trying to say that you can't read very well?

I get frustrated that you always prove in one way or another that you are better then everyone. You assume that everything must be in a certain way and if it isn't it must be fixed or dealt. In my case you had to point that out that I did a not so good and constructive post and it would be a whole better of without me.

My problem is that it's hard for me to read and understand all of the posts overall, specially when you put sarcasm in somewhere. I don't understand it, but I play (at least according to battle.net) at a pretty high level. So I really want to enter the discussion. But I am not good enough to read the words, I could look at something like a game and I could see what he did wrong or if someone shows me what he means I understand. But I just don't and it's making me frustrated. I need like a standpoint who is talking about what am I defending something or am I argumentation against something?

Yes the problem is at my side for not understanding and I was kind of to tired and I guess I also got angry that I couldn't follow the conversation when I wanted to. I simply put it away as in you wrote to much. But it would be really helpful to me to put in short words that your are argumentation about. So I to can join in and discuss.

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I get frustrated that you always prove in one way or another that you are better then everyone

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Do you mean that I am trying to prove my side is better or that I, as a person, am better? If its the latter, then I am sorry for giving you that impression. What parts of my posts gave you that impression so I can try to be more careful in the future?

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You assume that everything must be in a certain way and if it isn't it must be fixed or dealt.

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There's a difference between assuming and arguing for. If I believe that something needs to be fixed or dealt with, then I argue for it. I don't assume that it's the only way to do it. If you're talking about my more political arguments, I know that sometimes can sound that way, but that's only because I rarely get a worthy challenge to my opinion. Worthy, of course, being an argument based around statistics, facts, or other forms of evidence, instead of what a person believes or feels that something should be. If you are referring to my gameplay debates, then, as with the above, please tell me where I said the things that made you believe this.

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In my case you had to point that out that I did a not so good and constructive post and it would be a whole better of without me.

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Where did I say this?

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I simply put it away as in you wrote to much. But it would be really helpful to me to put in short words that your are argumentation about.

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I would prefer to keep it short and simple too. However, I have found that if I leave anything open to interpretation several people will interpret my statements in the worst way and discussion on the forum suffers for it, which I am trying to avoid.

Well look at that, Mothership is useful.

Could it be that I might seen one in melee again?

Reduced lagg, +1+1+1+1

I've never encountered a Mothership for it to even threaten lag, atleast since beta.

Hah, so true. But I have in custom maps and it creates a lot of lagg (at least for me)

there is notable motehrship lag in that video though.

Yeah, I would be okay with that they just remove the passive cloak permanently.

Then why even get a Mothership?

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Originally Posted by TychusFindlay

Then why even get a Mothership?

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4 T3H LULZ, obviously.

Mothership could have been so cool. I miss the Mothership we had at reveal :(

Planet cracker and time stop was just to amazing.

Time stop was amazing, it would've been a massive force field or toned down fungal growth.

Imagine it being used in game, I don't understand they they did'nt put that in. It's pretty much the queen's ensnare but location based only.

I suspect we may see the return of several cut units and abilities in HotS. Slow Time is one I eagerly await.

Also, the Tempest. Cause FUCK Carriers.

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Originally Posted by Twilice

Planet cracker and time stop was just to amazing.

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Too amazing indeed. A balancing nightmare to be sure. But, to say that the Mothership needs reworking would be an understatement.

I don't really mind the support-focused Mothership. I mean high-level spellcasters can be powerful forces on their own. (Look at the freaking infestor) But... she really needs to be like... better. Better spells, possibly find a more workable solution for her mobility issues. (Though the acceleration change may have fixed those.)

Vortex and Recall just... aren't that impressive. Recall was flat out useless on a unit that slow. Vortex can't even be used creatively anymore. It's silly. Time Bomb or whatever could have had some creative uses, but I think it'd need to be more than just an ensnare.

It's kind of interesting how all the units they advertised heavily when the game was first announced didn't even really wind up in the game at all.

Reapers got nerfed to oblivion, Mothership got nerfed to oblivion... it'd be nice if they could have like... kept these units true to their original intent for them to some degree.

One issue with the mothership has been.....the cloak and recall abilities are great unless the opponent has ghosts/high templar/infestors.

-Just 2 EMPs all energy gone from mothership. Not to mention no more cloak and all units hiding under it lose their shields.
-Infestor neural parasite it and you have the nightmare of fighting an invisible zerg army.
-High templar and boom energy gone and converted into damage.

If no one ever made those units the mothership would be alright. But yeah....

ahh such a hard decision in races.. I normally play Protoss 90% of the time but its looking pretty obvious that if I wanted to get back on a sponsored team and try my hand at playing professionally, Protoss doesnt fare well at the upper levels..

I do love zerg from BW, and I have that zerg "mentality" of always harassing/countering (I play P like a Z player, rather than the sit-and-max style that P requires) so in that sense, I would probably be a very good Z player if I focused on it. I dont mind ZvZ and ZvP is obviously easy, but ZvT is a pain in the ass.. its the reason I switched from Z to P in BW in the first place, cause i hated ZvT and PvT is slightly better. I lose to like low master T's with zerg =/

With the patch, sure P will be a tad better but I dont feel the changes are enough, especially in relation to the ghost and infestor. Staying with protoss right now is really more of a "Well, I know its bad but if blizzard isnt completely stupid and sees how P is doing in high level games, maybe we'll eventually get a fix" but its looking like blizzard rather have 32 terrans in code S than having equal-races. I mean, ghosts being 100 gas was one of the worst changes ever, I bitched about it in that patch thread and no one thought it would make a difference, but now every lategame TvZ and TvP is consists of 30 ghosts just mass EMP and sniping everything. Stupid =/

I wish HOTS would mention what units are going to be included, cause that'd give me an idea if I want to stay with P or start from the bottom again with Z but at least knowing in the end, its a much safer/stronger/consistent race

Or even if Mothership couldnt get neutral parasited, they would actually be useful. sigh.

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Originally Posted by Skyze

ahh such a hard decision in races.. I normally play Protoss 90% of the time but its looking pretty obvious that if I wanted to get back on a sponsored team and try my hand at playing professionally, Protoss doesnt fare well at the upper levels..

I do love zerg from BW, and I have that zerg "mentality" of always harassing/countering (I play P like a Z player, rather than the sit-and-max style that P requires) so in that sense, I would probably be a very good Z player if I focused on it. I dont mind ZvZ and ZvP is obviously easy, but ZvT is a pain in the ass.. its the reason I switched from Z to P in BW in the first place, cause i hated ZvT and PvT is slightly better. I lose to like low master T's with zerg =/

With the patch, sure P will be a tad better but I dont feel the changes are enough, especially in relation to the ghost and infestor. Staying with protoss right now is really more of a "Well, I know its bad but if blizzard isnt completely stupid and sees how P is doing in high level games, maybe we'll eventually get a fix" but its looking like blizzard rather have 32 terrans in code S than having equal-races. I mean, ghosts being 100 gas was one of the worst changes ever, I bitched about it in that patch thread and no one thought it would make a difference, but now every lategame TvZ and TvP is consists of 30 ghosts just mass EMP and sniping everything. Stupid =/

I wish HOTS would mention what units are going to be included, cause that'd give me an idea if I want to stay with P or start from the bottom again with Z but at least knowing in the end, its a much safer/stronger/consistent race

Or even if Mothership couldnt get neutral parasited, they would actually be useful. sigh.

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Well you could go Morrow-esque style. Play ZvP and ZvZ but go PvT. Don't see why not.:p

Nice to have your perspective Skyze! i cant say im surprised by it, though i kind of wish i was. :P Though im not in a position to argue, i do disagree about the patch as it stands not being enough; the buffs to immortals and prisms really stand out to me.

ive yet only heard stories about these high end games with sick ghost numbers, so i cant speak to that at all atm; maybe you're quite right :)

regardless, if the immortal and prism buffs stick, ill probably be picking up protoss some time before the next significant patch. i can totally see myself hitting diamond with P while having failed to reach it with T & having dropped out of it playing Z for nearly 6 months+ :D

an atempt to understand the terran side of the metagame concerning ghosts: The 200 mineral-cost and significant build time makes producing these on any larger scale require a big mineral economy and barrack-infrastructure, at my own level of play this is very hard to obtain (esp since getting the most of each ghosts takes better unit control than i have) ... i would imagine, for the high end players, it took time to adopt to this change partially because a different unit comp (more ghosts) requires a different tactical approach and partially because it may require more rax to keep producing ghosts alongside other infantry. (also, competitive players cant experiment wildly in hope of striking gold in finding an epic play; the experimentation is risky and has opportunity costs in terms of removing time from players standard-play practise, that keeps their overall skill consistent, relating to the current metagame )


... even if ghsots are everywhere thoguh, and frequently. are P's really hitting a brick wall with that? i dont want to beleive it. its not like ghosts are a sick dps unit outside EMP & snipe; zealot+archon flanks should stay scary? do top T's mass snipes on charging zealots?


... in any case, HoTS should mix things up, especially MS/carrier ; changes or replacements.

well, ghosts are a unit that you can't really build many early, to take advantage of their skillset (least snipe).. but what the gas reduction patch did, was the LATEGAME situation, where most players are floating 3000 minerals but are starved for gas. That is where ghosts were significantly buffed, and now TvZ ghosts are really strong. If it was still 150 gas, even tho its cheaper at 150 min also, the gas constraint is too much for terran to significantly produce ghosts + medivacs + tanks. Remember, terrans have mules, so an extra 50 minerals as opposed to 50 gas is pretty substansial.

As far as protoss/zerg is concerned, its not THAT bad yet, but I just see it snowballing out of control the further into the metagame we go. As it stands right now, zerg has such a large window of time where they can exponentally increase their economy and protoss has no way to punish them for it, with the warpgate/zealot nerfs in 1.3 (which were done to fix PvP 4gate, but just killed P in the other matchups, like how the 1-1-1 is so strong now relates back to that change) - So with that being said, a good zerg who can macro well will always have such a huge lead in the early-midgame, and from there on its an up-hill battle for protoss to try and get back into the game. Infestors cancel out all Protoss air units too (can't make carrier/mother due to NP, cant phoenix or voidray due to fungal) and you require HT to feedback, if you don't then NP'd collosus and fungaled everything else.

Protoss basically does these timing attacks (like archon/zealot +1 or voidray stalker vs terran) because they NEED to, if they don't do something then Protoss falls too far behind and the lategame composition is just not able to compete with Infestors/Ghosts, which nigate all protoss lategame units like HT and Motherships.

But I definitely understand that under Masters level, Protoss is significantly stronger as the other races can't take advantage of those situations. Which is why blizzard is hesitant to make the proper balance changes, because they are afraid its going to alienate the non-competitive community and make protoss too strong there. Its a shame =[

Overall though, I feel that the only real issues is Infestors and Ghosts. Those two units just are so versatile and affordable its insane, and protoss has nothing similar (HTs are ok but not in those levels) -- As far as the 1-1-1 goes, what I think protoss needs is a tier 1 or early tier 2 small AOE unit, kinda like the hellion. I think that would solve all the problems. Even the Reaver, as long as you could get one out around the timeframe of the immortal rather than the collosus. Just something to deal with the mass marine timing balls (as they are the problem, not the tanks/vikings/banshees/raven, those are the units that distract you from the marines dealing the insane DPS)

so HOTS give Protoss a earlier AOE (terran has hellions, zerg has banelings.. thats why mass marine timing attks doesnt kill them) and fix ghost/infestor! game would be very close then.

I wonder if right now terrans have changed their thinking. Us protosses have been complaining since SC2 came out that ghosts and their EMP are too damn strong against Protoss. And everyone kept saying among all the spellcasters the HT was the best. Well not anymore.

I don't get the whole balance for lower league argument. The way the Blizzard ladder system works the "OP" race would just overall get a lower benchmark to reach higher leagues. Then all the players who could best abuse the imbalance would just go into higher leagues.

And it's all subjective. Each individual has a worst matchup and the ladder system makes sure they have a close to 50% win rate. So i don't see why they don't just balance it for competitive play. The result at worst would be a long losing streak for some, a long winning streak for others then normalising.

I hope this Protoss decline is just a trend and someone will figure something out for PvT and PvZ. Some way or build to just stay safe and reach the late game on even ground. I dunno maybe some weird thing where after warp gate is done chronoboosting warpgates for higher gateway production for X amount of time. Being aggressive with a larger than normal gateway army but still macroing behind it.

key concept here is close to 50% win rate; that is overall. if my TvP is weak and P gets buffed, my TvP will be even weaker, and from losing all the more vs protosses ill face weaker terrans and zergs, making these matchups even stronger for me. (as well as facing weaker P's witch will increase my winrate vs P but stay lower than TvT and TvZ)

i think tehy're msotly balancing for competitive play, theyre just being very careful about it and trying to consider the whole picture, inclduing what may still happen.

well, the issue mainly is that right now in GSL (the highest form of competition in SC2, no one can deny that), even the top notch protoss players are losing to Code B-skill level players of terran/zerg.. At some point, you have to look at the stats and situations and you can't just say its a metagame issue that will be resolved anytime soon. Anyone with knowledge of the game can see that theres some very strong macro/micro (like top 5 in the world) players on protoss, such as MC, and hes getting dominated by 1-1-1 or infestor/ling zergs like hes some diamond player.

Then you have players like JYP who are trying all the best micro tricks in the book; templar storm dropping pylons, immortal drops in the back while collosus on side cliff to catch marines running to the back, DT harassing and all this while taking more bases, and STILL getting absolutely dominated when it comes time to fight a real battle.

The issue is protoss is like in the "middle" of each race in terms of attacking methods. Their units are too expensive to suicide-harass like zerg does (throwing away 20 lings costs nothing for the dmg it can do, but throwing away 10 zealots is very expensive for the little damage they achieve due to speed of chasing drones) - and their "deathball" army is just not cutting it vs any infestor or ghost mixed armies. Harassing and head-on fights are both 2nd rate, so what are you left with doing? Just praying for your opponent to make a fatal mistake, thats how playing protoss is right now.

Least before infestor and ghost usage (it wasnt due to them being bad, just people not realizing their insane potential), Protoss "deathball" was worth getting, yet was still beatable by well-compositioned armies (baneling drops with roach/hydra, or marine/marauder/viking still could beat it).. With ghosts and infestors, that 50/50 balance which micro wins, is now in favor of non-protoss by at least 75% or more.

I remember back in those days. Many months ago. I argued to the Terrans/Zergs that Protoss are just using pretty much most of our units and disregarding the ones we consider not worth getting (due to cost, time, fragility). And i told them they need to try new units, new unit mixes, new attacking styles then they could deal with Protoss.

Many Protoss nerfs later they've found their new units and new unit mixes to deal with a Protoss deathball that's become less scary because they realise how immobile it is and how long it takes for Protoss to get there.

Perhaps warp prisms can be the harass tool Protoss needs right now. Immortal buff would make early game immortal timings stronger. But it still feels like robo reliance which Protoss kind of always had. Maybe Protoss just needs a scarier deathball. Like 8 colossi and 20 void rays, plus a mothership. Or maybe somehow carriers will be the solution (LOL).

But damn man I want an EMP radius nerf. Looking at GSL, etc even with casting units spread quite well in a line it still only takes 2-3 EMPs and pretty much at this point terran can easily get those off at the highest levels.

O....M.....G.....
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/1213111662

-Infestor's Neural Parasite can no longer target Massive units.

Kind of extreme but it does greatly increase the effectiveness of Protoss deathballs PvZ. No more...mothership stealing.:D:O No more colossi and archon stealing. OMG.....almost seems like too much. But fungal and infested terran did seem harder to deal with and neural was like the icing on the cake.

Yea I just saw that on TL also.. while im happy kinda (ive been working on a mothership build but it kept getting owned by NP) - It may be a bit too much. Really, just make the mothership and carriers not able to be NP'd. I think it hurts ZvT more, because NP was the main counter vs thors..

So yea, maybe they should bring it back abit and just stop NP on massive air units. That would fix it IMO. I still think fungal and infested terrans are the main problem with infestors, NP isnt too bad other than the stealing mothership crap (it basically means mothership is worthless atm due to how much tech/cost it is, compared to a 100/150 2supply unit that can be had within the first 8 minutes..)

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Originally Posted by Skyze

Yea I just saw that on TL also.. while im happy kinda (ive been working on a mothership build but it kept getting owned by NP) - It may be a bit too much. Really, just make the mothership and carriers not able to be NP'd. I think it hurts ZvT more, because NP was the main counter vs thors..

So yea, maybe they should bring it back abit and just stop NP on massive air units. That would fix it IMO. I still think fungal and infested terrans are the main problem with infestors, NP isnt too bad other than the stealing mothership crap (it basically means mothership is worthless atm due to how much tech/cost it is, compared to a 100/150 2supply unit that can be had within the first 8 minutes..)

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Well they could just make it selective. Like Ultras can't be mind controlled. Just make it so certain units can't be mind controlled. No need to make it specifically massive air units.

Yeah, they could have just given the Mothership an equivalent to "Frenzy" =S

For my money, Fungal Growth should not do damage, they should give the Corrupter a different spell (or a completely different mechanic) and Fungal Growth should apply the Corruption effect to every unit it hits instead of doing damage.

An ability that immobilizes AND does damage is just kind of ridiculous. No matter how much damage it does.

It's just kind of a situation where all of Zerg's eggs are in one basket. Overseer's serve little purpose aside from scouting and enemy harassment, Corrupters are Air to Air units, not spellcasters. So they're just left with the Infestor being good, and it is. But I'd rather the Infestor have more utility (more health and movement speed) than have the ridiculously strong spells it has now.

Though I think this NP change is also kinda ludicrous. If they're going to make a change like that, it should really be compensated somewhere else. (Either reduced in energy cost, no longer require a research, something like that.) Because it's only real use now is on Immortals and Siege Tanks.

I love the Infestor conceptually, as an agent of terror and chaos spreading dissension in the enemy ranks, but they have to figure out some way to make it work better I think without it being a one-man army.

And I say all this as a zerg player.

So PTR is finally available for Europe. The sight and not being able to warp in on ramps....damn.....as long as Protosses veto Tal'Darim and are responsible about making sentries and using forcefields...offensive 4 gates are pretty dead.

Offensive blinking up ramps too (without observers). Woah.......

EDIT: Could probably imagine Korean 4gate style (the one with zealots only) could get really popular again.