Patch 1.4.0

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Originally Posted by Peanutbutter

So... it's a one base build?

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How can you still possibly be confused after all of that explanation I gave?

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What you seem to ignore is that you're treating this build like its a macro build where things aren't as tight. In a macro build, you don't have to be exact with your timings and you can even make quite a few mistakes. Not so with a fast blinker build. You have to be very tight with your timings and control, or else you lose. Attack during that small window before Zerg can pump out units or you lose. Simple as that.

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Macro means means 2-base here since I contrasted it to a 1-base build and we're talking about Protoss where you can't really spam drones like Zerg on 1-base, so you can't really macro on 1-base. So, yeah, I'm 1-basing in a particular version of this strategy although I usually go 2-base Huk build, but, like you said, that strategy isn't effected very much. I explained earlier why sometimes I go 1-base early blinkers in some cases against Zerg. It's not a recommended build, since you have to micro your pants off, but its been paying off a lot in this particular point in the high diamond metagame because all of the Zerg players macro so much and expect a Protoss to go 2-base.

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Originally Posted by TychusFindlay

How can you still possibly be confused after all of that explanation I gave?

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I'm sorry.

1base blinkrush certainly rellies on metagaming your opponent and punishing for non-reactive mindless over-droning (or cold calculated risktaking).

i remember falling for this type of build once or twice, but in my golden days i felt rather safe against it; keeping a defensive enough mindset to be able to hold even in the face of being denied all scouting and/or tricked-out at critical timings. Godly micro may ofcourse make a differance, but at some point, with enough precautionary speedlings, at that point of the game, the zerg just holds and there is nothing you can do about it.

... to tehorycraft a bit on this, ofocurse, if youare able to trick him out a bit earlier, to hold drones too much for too long to defend some earleir timing he things is comming, then he might be weak enough come the blink-push.


... regardless, obviously the timing windoes for a 1base blink play vs zerg are tight enough for this kind of nerf to make a differance on a high level of play. and we're all in agreement that for macrobuilds, it will barely matter at all.


... i heard some wise words on this issue on SOTG #47, how blindly going blink currently often ends up blind countering builds that go for blink just slightly later, becasue the player with later blink easily gets caught midmap when the other player has his blink finished, making it impossible to retreat...

should be a good change for PvP?

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Originally Posted by TychusFindlay

Macro means means 2-base here since I contrasted it to a 1-base build and we're talking about Protoss where you can't really spam drones like Zerg on 1-base, so you can't really macro on 1-base. So, yeah, I'm 1-basing in a particular version of this strategy although I usually go 2-base Huk build, but, like you said, that strategy isn't effected very much. I explained earlier why sometimes I go 1-base early blinkers in some cases against Zerg. It's not a recommended build, since you have to micro your pants off, but its been paying off a lot in this particular point in the high diamond metagame because all of the Zerg players macro so much and expect a Protoss to go 2-base.

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I see.

However, I still think that Zerg's at that high diamond level should easily be able to spot a 1 base toss build. Just poking up the ramp with a speedling at the 5 min. mark should give the zerg an idea of what strategy he's facing.

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Originally Posted by Todie

... i heard some wise words on this issue on SOTG #47, how blindly going blink currently often ends up blind countering builds that go for blink just slightly later, becasue the player with later blink easily gets caught midmap when the other player has his blink finished, making it impossible to retreat...

should be a good change for PvP?

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Player 1 might still get blink faster than Player 2, so this issue will still exist after the patch hits. I might be overlooking something here though.

The general agreement on TL, is that the blink research time increase, as well as the immortal buff, will make stalkers A LOT weaker in the matchup.
Going robo will simply be so much more effective IMO.

I still think that robo/twilight will be viable, but it remains to be seen.

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Just poking up the ramp with a speedling at the 5 min. mark should give the zerg an idea of what strategy he's facing

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Denying such a scout is StarCraft 101. Just block off. It's the Overlords you have to worry about so you have to kind of be proactive in preventing Overlords from getting far in. In every game that I've done early 1-base blinkers, the Zerg always tries to scout. Yes, first with a Zerglings, then with a Overlord, then maybe an Overseer. It's still about attacking at that crucial moment where the Zerg can't do much.

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Originally Posted by TychusFindlay

Denying such a scout is StarCraft 101. Just block off. It's the Overlords you have to worry about so you have to kind of be proactive in preventing Overlords from getting far in. In every game that I've done early 1-base blinkers, the Zerg always tries to scout. Yes, first with a Zerglings, then with a Overlord, then maybe an Overseer. It's still about attacking at that crucial moment where the Zerg can't do much.

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Just block off? Of course you'll have a zealot blocking the ramp, but the zerg can get a lot of information just by looking at which units you have at the ramp. A stalker before any sentry is a clear sign of some kind of allin fx.

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Originally Posted by Peanutbutter

Just block off? Of course you'll have a zealot blocking the ramp, but the zerg can get a lot of information just by looking at which units you have at the ramp. A stalker before any sentry is a clear sign of some kind of allin fx.

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Not necessarily. Hasn't it been a tactic lately that if you see a late gas by zerg in favour of a faster hatch you can safely push out with a zealot and stalker and try to kill lings and the queen?? I've done it before and it does feel really safe to push at that time. No threat of ling speed. And i just do a normal 1 or 3 gate expand behind it.

It might be a bump that slows down my expansion but it forces lings to be made instead of drones. Possibly spines as well. And if zerg is being greedy trying to get away with 2 or 4 lings then sniping a queen is a real possibility.

It's just a side situation that makes zerg not have a very obvious reaction to seeing stalker after zealot.

Even when going fast blinkers, you still have to get a sentry, so the early game is still pretty much the same.

but its pretty hard ot keep me from scouting and seeing if there is mroe than one sentry.. and if i only see one, im more likely to be careful.

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Originally Posted by TychusFindlay

Even when going fast blinkers, you still have to get a sentry, so the early game is still pretty much the same.

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No, when going for a standard protoss macro build, you don't just get a sentry.

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Originally Posted by Todie

but its pretty hard ot keep me from scouting and seeing if there is mroe than one sentry.. and if i only see one, im more likely to be careful.

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Exactly. Every protoss macro build involves a lot ( Lets say 4+ ) sentries. If a zerg only sees 1 sentry at a point in the game where the P " should " have at least 3-4, he will suspect some kind of funky 1 base play.

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Originally Posted by JackhammerIV

Not necessarily. Hasn't it been a tactic lately that if you see a late gas by zerg in favour of a faster hatch you can safely push out with a zealot and stalker and try to kill lings and the queen?? I've done it before and it does feel really safe to push at that time. No threat of ling speed. And i just do a normal 1 or 3 gate expand behind it.

It might be a bump that slows down my expansion but it forces lings to be made instead of drones. Possibly spines as well. And if zerg is being greedy trying to get away with 2 or 4 lings then sniping a queen is a real possibility.

It's just a side situation that makes zerg not have a very obvious reaction to seeing stalker after zealot.

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I haven't really heard of this strategy. I don't watch much pro SC2, and I haven't really seen mention of this on TL.

It does sound like something I should try though. The zergs i usually face on the ladder, get 1 spine up relatively early though.