How did they screw up the single player that bad?

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Originally Posted by Drake Clawfang

Wrong, but continue

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Wrong without arguments... See this for instance - II.a, V.b and other sections:
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/2228426678

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Yes they were. Doesn't change the fact that line, while truthful, is incredibly dumb and cheesy. Especially because it was out of left field and total overreaction from Zasz. "oh my GOD, she threatened me? She'll get us all killed!"

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It is not so much overreacting if you realize that Zasz and other Cerebrates were not used to defiance in the Swarm. Even less so when he was completely right and he also said that only as a side note, he didn't mean it dead serious at that time.

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Yeah, being the leader of the main antagonists of the series, so far anyway, will do that. Silly thing to complain about, like complaining that SC1 everything was about the Overmind.

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There wasn't everything about the Overmind in SC1. Kerrigan was the main character of Brood War and it seems she will be the main character of the whole SC2 trilogy. I want at least better performance from her, because in WoL she was simply pathetic, just like Mengsk (III.a).

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It was hardly "more" on the joking side. The newscasts were obviously intended as comic relief and are optional, if you don't care for them fine, but they are not an integral part of the story. It's not like Jar-Jar Binks, if you find them annoying and out of place its a simple matter to just ignore them and not watch them.

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I don't want to have to ignore parts of the story because these parts are bad or completely out of the place. I like humour, but the newscasts were almost absurd sometimes. And like I said there are other serious moments where you are thinking if they were joking or not - some are described in the article I referenced above.

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Personally though I liked seeing how the media always spun Raynor's actions to make him look like a terrorist, it was funny to see them stretch the truth. But then I watch Jon Stewart so I'm used to that sort of thing being mocked :p.

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It was fun, but in a very naive way.

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Originally Posted by Drake Clawfang

Yes there was. Selendis told Raynor they detected the colonists were infested and they had to be wiped out, standard procedure for the Protoss. Raynor refuses to let them do this and tries to protect them, which Selendis doesn't stand for. My issue with the mission isn't the negotiations, its Selendis' response when Raynor blows up the Purifier is "okay okay yeesh, we're going". As TV Tropes puts it, if the theory that Selendis is the Ep 4 Executor is true, her Honor Before Reason way of doing things explains a lot of the idiocies of the Protoss in Brood War.

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The "diplomacy" was good enough for the casual player, but after playing the first game & reading the DT saga, I didn't buy it too well. Selendis comes off as extremely rational in the DT saga, and Protoss are supposed to be smarter than humans in general (which is why my mind reeled when Raynor took down the Fleet of the Executor with his guerrilla tactics).

The problem is not the "honor before reason" thing IMO but the fact that reality shifts based on your decision, just like in the Tosh missions choice. If you pick Selendis, the infestation is very bad and Hanson doesn't find the cure. If you pick Hanson, the infestation is non-existent and she does find a cure (which is total BS in my opinion). The "choices" were meaningless and detrimental to the plot.

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She knows what they can do.

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Fair enough, but how well is this explained to the player? If she knew what it was going to do, why was she right at ground zero when the artifact went off?

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Unless the Narud-Duran thing turns out to be something substantial.

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But it's not in the game (and yes it has to be in this game for this game to make sense).

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Fair point. Though you could argue that thanks to the DT Saga we know the Tal'darim are working for Ulrezaj (or rather are going on orders from him from before he got locked up), and even if they aren't by this point we know they're still bad news. We know that in the Overmind's vision, somehow Kerrigan was killed and with her gone the Dark Voice reigns. Ulrezaj, presumably working for the Dark Voice, sends out the Tal'darim to find and protect the artifacts to make sure that any attempt to save Kerrigan's life and alter the foreseen future doesn't happen.

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That's a good way to tie them in, but not relevant to the casual player. The Tal'Darim faction also doesn't make sense in Wings of Liberty if what we read about them in the DT saga was true.

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As for the Executor's name, they named him in data files somewhere I believe, "Nyon" or something. Why they didn't use it in the missions, I'm not sure.

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The other Tal'Darim Executor was named Lhassir. Most players probably wouldn't notice there was more than 1 since they're so generic. =/

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On the other hand, complaining about the Dark Voice stuff when it is perfectly obvious that we aren't being given the full story yet is ignorant. It's a plot hole about why Mengsk wants the artifacts. It's set-up for the sequel about how Mengsk has his hand in the Hybrids.

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I agree about Mengsk, but I'm not sure you understand the problem the reviewer had with the Dark Voice. The Dark Voice makes the background for the story unnecessarily convoluted (the protoss & zerg are fighting because the dark voice infiltrated the Overmind's brain to make him want to attack the protoss, so that he can make hybrids, so that he can destroy everything, so that he can rule once everyone is dead. The overmind, who has no free will, finds a way to game the system by creating a successor who will have more free will than him and then save the universe). This sounds stupid now, and it will still be stupid in the expansions.

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Originally Posted by Romla

Wrong without arguments... See this for instance - II.a, V.b and other sections:
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/2228426678

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Neither has anything to do with characters beyond Raynor and Kerrigan, irrelevant therefore.

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It is not so much overreacting if you realize that Zasz and other Cerebrates were not used to defiance in the Swarm. Even less so when he was completely right and he also said that only as a side note, he didn't mean it dead serious at that time.

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It was overreacting, and incredibly cheesy. That Zasz was right doesn't make the line less dumb, it's an irrelevant note. "That's a lot of fish". Yes, it was Mr. Brodderick. Doesn't mean it wasn't a ridiculous thing to say.

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There wasn't everything about the Overmind in SC1. Kerrigan was the main character of Brood War and it seems she will be the main character of the whole SC2 trilogy. I want at least better performance from her, because in WoL she was simply pathetic, just like Mengsk (III.a).

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I said SC, not Brood War. And the point still stands, when you're the head of the major antagonistic fashion, you are going to be important to the plot. Duh. That Kerrigan is up to form is a valid complaint, that she was central to the story is not.

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I don't want to have to ignore parts of the story because these parts are bad or completely out of the place. I like humour, but the newscasts were almost absurd sometimes. And like I said there are other serious moments where you are thinking if they were joking or not - some are described in the article I referenced above.

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And you completely miss my point. Yes they are absurd, its called comic relief, they are not central to the story, they're commentary and nothing more.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

Fair enough, but how well is this explained to the player? If she knew what it was going to do, why was she right at ground zero when the artifact went off?

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I don't see Kerrigan, infested or no, as the kind to retreat even if she's gonna lose. Especially as the Queen of Blades she's arrogant beyond words. I don't see her going "oh shit" when the Artifact is brought in and running away because she's afraid of its power. She was afraid of them, as Narud tells us, but she isn't going to retreat like that, especially when they challenged her on her home turf.

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But it's not in the game (and yes it has to be in this game for this game to make sense).

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Have to be, no. Could have been, perhaps should, but it didn't need to be.

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That's a good way to tie them in, but not relevant to the casual player. The Tal'Darim faction also doesn't make sense in Wings of Liberty if what we read about them in the DT saga was true.

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Well, they had functioning transports IIRC in the DT books. It isn't unreasonable Ulrezaj sent a few of them out to other worlds. We weren't given a good feel for the sizes of the Tal'darim in the DT books. As for the size of the Tal'darim in the campaign, you can chalk that up to poor representation of their faction, much as the Raiders can build huge armies despite their supposed lack of manpower and resources.

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I agree about Mengsk, but I'm not sure you understand the problem the reviewer had with the Dark Voice. The Dark Voice makes the background for the story unnecessarily convoluted (the protoss & zerg are fighting because the dark voice infiltrated the Overmind's brain to make him want to attack the protoss, so that he can make hybrids, so that he can destroy everything, so that he can rule once everyone is dead. The overmind, who has no free will, finds a way to game the system by creating a successor who will have more free will than him and then save the universe). This sounds stupid now, and it will still be stupid in the expansions.

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If the complain isn't about the Dark Voice itself but the complexity of the story, that's a simple preference of choice and not a flaw. I don't mind complex stories, I've grown up playing Legacy of Kain and Kingdom Hearts, bring it on. :p

Now, does it sound stupid? No. The Overmind was controlled by another force who was planning to exterminate all life, so to try and defy the objectives set for it he creates Kerrigan and gets himself killed so the swarm has a leader not bound to the Dark Voice. I don't have a problem with this. "Stupid" is slightly a harsh term, and it's really premature to declare "it will still be stupid in the expansions" because you don't know how they're going to expand on this plot.

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Originally Posted by Drake Clawfang

Have to be, no. Could have been, perhaps should, but it didn't need to be.

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If "it didn't need to be" in the game that's because storylines based on artifacts are lazy writing. As it stands, it makes little sense that Valerian knew the artifacts would deinfest Kerrigan and invest so much money into the venture, considering that he or his Moebius buddies had no access to any of the aforementioned artifacts.

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Well, they had functioning transports IIRC in the DT books. It isn't unreasonable Ulrezaj sent a few of them out to other worlds. We weren't given a good feel for the sizes of the Tal'darim in the DT books. As for the size of the Tal'darim in the campaign, you can chalk that up to poor representation of their faction, much as the Raiders can build huge armies despite their supposed lack of manpower and resources.

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The Tal'Darim were originally some protoss guys in a cave. The name of Tal'Darim was created specifically for those guys in the cave. Furthermore, Tal'Darim should have zero khalai units such as high templar or immortals since sundrop robs them of their ability to connect to the Khala.

The ball was dropped on Raynor's faction back when Aaron Rosenburg destroyed Raynor's fleet that he acquired back in Queen of Blades. We see what I think is Raynor's fleet in the "Better Future" cinematic, but not in any other stage of the game. :/

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If the complain isn't about the Dark Voice itself but the complexity of the story, that's a simple preference of choice and not a flaw. I don't mind complex stories, I've grown up playing Legacy of Kain and Kingdom Hearts, bring it on. :p

Now, does it sound stupid? No. The Overmind was controlled by another force who was planning to exterminate all life, so to try and defy the objectives set for it he creates Kerrigan and gets himself killed so the swarm has a leader not bound to the Dark Voice. I don't have a problem with this. "Stupid" is slightly a harsh term, and it's really premature to declare "it will still be stupid in the expansions" because you don't know how they're going to expand on this plot.

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"Convoluted" implies unnecessary & frivolous complexity, not just good ol' fashioned complexity. Even if you can rationalize what the Dark Voice & Overmind do, the fact of the matter is that all that crap could have been cut out of the game and nothing would have changed.

Look at the reason for why races fight in SC. The Overmind infests Chau Sara because he is looking for ways to make the Swarm stronger (a natural instinct). Now we have TvZ. The Protoss want to help the humans by cleansing the world of infestation, so now we have PvZ. But this only pisses off the humans, so now we have PvT. We didn't have to wait for future expansions for any of this to make sense, and the storyline was natural & fluid. It later evolves into a more complicated plot (Mengsk wants to destroy the Confederacy (TvT) but the Protoss want to save the planet (PvZ). But Mengsk can't let the Confederates escape so he has to fight the Protoss too (TvP).

Compare this to WoL where all the action starts because the Zerg invade Mar Sara (which we find out in a few missions is because Kerrigan wants artifacts, and we only find out why she wants them at the end of the campaign). Tychus somehow finds Raynor and says that the Moebius boys also want the artifacts (which we'll find out why in some later expansion when the Narud-Duran thing starts to mean something). Then Mengsk wants the artifacts too in the second mission of the game (we don't know why). The story & conflict hinges around the artifacts, yet the writers have given crappy reasons as to why. Then the story meanders between the Zerg invasion & rebellion against mengsk & random money-making ventures.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

If "it didn't need to be" in the game that's because storylines based on artifacts are lazy writing. As it stands, it makes little sense that Valerian knew the artifacts would deinfest Kerrigan and invest so much money into the venture, considering that he or his Moebius buddies had no access to any of the aforementioned artifacts.

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Agreed as a whole that as it stands, the artifacts were MacGuffins. And as tired as this card is and as weak as it is, I maintain the sequel will probably elaborate on them. Mengsk, it just came to me, was probably after the artifacts for the same reason Ulrezaj was, if we assume he took orders directly from the Dark Voice then he was probably trying to keep them from Raynor.

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The Tal'Darim were originally some protoss guys in a cave. The name of Tal'Darim was created specifically for those guys in the cave. Furthermore, Tal'Darim should have zero khalai units such as high templar or immortals since sundrop robs them of their ability to connect to the Khala.

The ball was dropped on Raynor's faction back when Aaron Rosenburg destroyed Raynor's fleet that he acquired back in Queen of Blades. We see what I think is Raynor's fleet in the "Better Future" cinematic, but not in any other stage of the game. :/

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Agreed. At times I think the Starcraft story would work better as novels, given that Blizzard seems to have trouble conveying the image they want of the SC universe in their games, even in the original SC (remember the rage at the change in Raynor's appearance?)

EDIT - Also, that its a poor way to set up characters by tying them into the books, a matter of opinion, but still, Matt and Nova would like a word with you. Matt in particular is Raynor's second-in-command and is basically his Adjutant-equivalent advisor, but is completely foreign to anyone who hasn't read Queen of Blades. I don't have a problem with this sort of thing myself. People who have read the books are like "oh, Matt is here, and the Tal'darim are here, oh crap Ulrezaj?" Players who haven't can be introduced to them now and are thus encouraged to read the books to discover their backstories.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

I agree about Mengsk, but I'm not sure you understand the problem the reviewer had with the Dark Voice. The Dark Voice makes the background for the story unnecessarily convoluted (the protoss & zerg are fighting because the dark voice infiltrated the Overmind's brain to make him want to attack the protoss, so that he can make hybrids, so that he can destroy everything, so that he can rule once everyone is dead. The overmind, who has no free will, finds a way to game the system by creating a successor who will have more free will than him and then save the universe). This sounds stupid now, and it will still be stupid in the expansions.

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It really sounds stupid when it is said just like that, surely it is also not a new discovery, but it so strongly reminds me of Warcraft 3 story, which was good for a fantasy themed Warcraft. It doesn't need to be precise, but I see it very similar to this:

The Dark Voice = Archimonde
Xel'Naga = Burning Legion
Overmind = Ner'zhul
Kerrigan = Arthas
Duran = Tichondrius or Kil'jaeden
Zeratul = Medivh The Prophet
Zerg = Orcs
Hybrids = Undead
Protoss = Elves
Terran = Humans
and so on...

I don't need to say I don't like it because I don't want more of the same in regards of story.

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The Dark Voice = Archimonde

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We don't know very much about the Dark Voice so this could be true or false.

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Xel'Naga = Burning Legion

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Only in a very vague way.

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Zeratul = Medivh The Prophet

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LOL no

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Zerg = Orcs

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You chose Orcs instead of Undead?

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Hybrids = Undead

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Not even close really, except they're the strongest "race" but that's kind of a RTS necessity after awhile.

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Protoss = Elves

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LOL No.

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Originally Posted by Drake Clawfang

Neither has anything to do with characters beyond Raynor and Kerrigan, irrelevant therefore.

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You must read it, preferably whole. Many characters in SC2 are forgetting what was Kerrigan doing in SC1, it is very relevant for everyone who wants to bear the story in WoL at least a bit seriously.

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It was overreacting, and incredibly cheesy. That Zasz was right doesn't make the line less dumb, it's an irrelevant note. "That's a lot of fish". Yes, it was Mr. Brodderick. Doesn't mean it wasn't a ridiculous thing to say.

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But we are not talking about fish here. Zasz said that in anger, was it cheesy? Maybe. But definitely not so much cheesy like 50% of dialogue in WoL.

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I said SC, not Brood War. And the point still stands, when you're the head of the major antagonistic fashion, you are going to be important to the plot. Duh. That Kerrigan is up to form is a valid complaint, that she was central to the story is not.

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When parody of a character is a central of the story, then it is a very valid complaint, if it is not a comedy.

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And you completely miss my point. Yes they are absurd, its called comic relief, they are not central to the story, they're commentary and nothing more.

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And you completely missed my point. They are not the only thing for laughing at sarcastically in WoL.

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Originally Posted by TychusFindlay

LOL No

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These are very interesting arguments, maybe think about it some time before you write LOL No. Zergs are just like Orcs in this story Gradius wrote up above, and Hybrids are definitely like Undead, they are new weapon after Zergs failed. The others are also very similar to their Warcraft counterparts.

And I hope I am completely wrong because I do not want to play the same game twice, but what we now know seems very similar to W3.

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Originally Posted by Romla

You must read it, preferably whole.

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Not happening, not gonna spend half an hour to read an essay on how horrible the story is. If you have a point make it, don't make me look for it on someone else's post.

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But we are not talking about fish here.

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Once again you miss the point.

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Zasz said that in anger, was it cheesy? Maybe. But definitely not so much cheesy like 50% of dialogue in WoL.

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50%? Please.

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When parody of a character is a central of the story, then it is a very valid complaint, if it is not a comedy.

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....what? Kerrigan a parody? That's absurd and you know it.

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And you completely missed my point. They are not the only thing for laughing at sarcastically in WoL.

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Then name the rest.

I love this back and forth. Please continue :D

Without posts like mine there was no discussion on these forums. People seriously need to stop attacking me sometimes. The first 5 replies to my post seriously show that this community needs a wake up call. It's pretty much dead especially when the elite has the attitude that all subjects are done, and there's no need to talk any longer.

There are so many angles and leyers of this potential discussion that im hesitant about going in to it at all; i've probably read less than half of the thread, but ill just post my two cents for the sake of it:

someone mentioned bad dialogue scripting and im inclined to agree; this and the non-linear approach to the campaign gave a dissapointing result in terms of storytelling; the campaign and the in-between bits arguably has some epic bits and pieces, but the way it fits together and how the full story is presented overall, clearly falls short of that of sc or sc/bw.

im not one to nitpick details about this sort of thing but it seems clear that these are among the core issues with sc2 SP.

To Drake Clawfang: This is going nowhere. You think the story is good, I think not, many people referenced articles which criticized the story, you don't want to read them. Then post some articles where the story is praised and I will read them contrary to you. But how Gradius said before, Blizzard knows, so this whole discussion is maybe really useless.

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Originally Posted by Romla

To Drake Clawfang: This is going nowhere. You think the story is good, I think not, many people referenced articles which criticized the story, you don't want to read them. Then post some articles where the story is praised and I will read them contrary to you. But how Gradius said before, Blizzard knows, so this whole discussion is maybe really useless.

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No no, see, I don't have to link articles praising the story, I make my own points. But very well, you cannot or will not refute my arguments any longer, so thanks for playing. How disappointing.

--delete--

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Originally Posted by Romla

These are very interesting arguments.

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Writing an argument takes time and your "argument" (even less than mine, X = Y) wasn't worth it. There are plenty of similarities between StarCraft and WarCraft but none of them are the ones you mentioned.

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Originally Posted by Wankey

Without posts like mine there was no discussion on these forums.

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You don't discuss. You bitch. You don't even rant or critique. Just spam insults at the developers.

Any discussion that results from your posts happens simply because you mention a topic. You do nothing to further conversation.

And, yes, in my opinion, this topic is done. I haven't seen anything in this topic that is new. It's just the same complaints over and over with, maybe, if we're lucky, a new scapegoat or specific example. In fact, most of this was said within the first week of release. It's been over a year since release. At this point, most of you are just rephrasing articles (many from SCL) and previous posts.

The way I see it, either HOTS will redeem the series or the series will only be a MP series in most people's eyes. I don't see anything other than that worth discussing other than to simply discuss to let off steam. But, if that's the case, don't do it under the guise of helping the community or the developer.

-Glances around a bit before talking in a cheerful tone-

I like it!

Yeah, the story wasn't as good as the original. Yeah, Blizzard AND fans have seen and admitted to the faults. Does that mean it was a bad game? Nope. I still really enjoyed it, even if it was cheesy, simple, and fairly cliched.

Hell, when it originally came out I bemoaned the lack of a greater narrative flow, the lack of explanation about Jimmy and Tychus's past together, the missing comrades and characters that could have appeared (The Dark Templar Trilogy? Professor Ramsey would've been awesome in this game). I also hope that HotS ends up being longer than 20 missions. 23-24 would be much nicer, in my opinion. There's just so much potential story they could flesh out and explain.

Thinking about it recently, I think my main problem with the story is that there was just no sense of narrative more than anything. And that's not because the stories were too incidental or because it was a 'choose your own adventure'. There was just nothing cohesive about any of it.

Like I remember one game once upon a time had like... the same cutscenes would always play after you'd finished a certain number of missions or quests. No matter what order you did them in. Like, Mass Effect for example. You choose the order you do planets in, but no matter what you still get the same amount of story.

In general what SC2 seemed to do was have a mission, then have a cutscene talking about that mission, then they'd go bugger off and do something completely separate that was unrelated.

As opposed to the original StarCraft where the cutscene would talk about what they were planning to do next, than what they'd already done.

I think Kerrigan's introduction into the story is really the perfect example. The 'big foot' shot was one thing. That was kinda... goofy, but somewhat understandable. But what happens when she shows up in the actual STORY?

All she says is:

"I forgot how resourceful you were. I won't make that mistake again."

Then Raynor goes "Kerrigan..." and that's the end of it.

Like... what? That's it? I mean we get a cutscene following introducing Tychus to Kerrigan, where they talk about how Raynor dated her (and that actually is a cool scene) but... like... what?

They're setting up this whole subplot of how Raynor's going to need to choose between killing her and saving her. But they haven't even bothered to establish her character. Even if we know who she is, it's been 10+ years since Brood War came out. The audience needs a refresher on what a bad-ass she is beyond fighting her later on.

Like, her most defining characteristic as a character is that she's basically the universe's biggest troll. She does evil things and then she taunts the crap out of whoever she's done them to. This is... such a lame entrance for her. And it sets the tone for her character for the entire game.

Compare that to her introduction in Brood War. Where she appears, pretty much calls everyone a moron, acts smug and self-assured and then manages to convince the Protoss to hear her out. But in StarCraft 2? After 4 years all she's got to say is "I forgot how resourceful you were"? This is the point where they should be establishing what she's been doing, why she's back, what she wants. Even if they're vague. I know Raynor said "She's come to finish the game." but that's not... really an answer. They just banked WAYYY too much on player's nostalgia seeing them through the story.

I know I'm obsessing over two lines of dialogue in the campaign, but this is a really key scene, and they totally dropped the ball on it.

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Originally Posted by Alar

-Glances around a bit before talking in a cheerful tone-

I like it!

Yeah, the story wasn't as good as the original. Yeah, Blizzard AND fans have seen and admitted to the faults. Does that mean it was a bad game? Nope. I still really enjoyed it, even if it was cheesy, simple, and fairly cliched.

Hell, when it originally came out I bemoaned the lack of a greater narrative flow, the lack of explanation about Jimmy and Tychus's past together, the missing comrades and characters that could have appeared (The Dark Templar Trilogy? Professor Ramsey would've been awesome in this game). I also hope that HotS ends up being longer than 20 missions. 23-24 would be much nicer, in my opinion. There's just so much potential story they could flesh out and explain.

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The SP was still saved b/c of the good level design and the sheer skill & attention-to-detail of the art team. The in-game cinematics were great IMO. If the story team showed half the dedication of the art team, this would be a AAA title. Seriously, you see on the DVD an artist being tasked with creating a larvae and saying "The larva is a dumb 3 segmented worm but I wanted to look at it and say that's the best dumb 3 segmented worm we've ever created." Meanwhile the writing team is spewing out gems like "my brother went off to the mines last week. he disappeared".

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Originally Posted by TychusFindlay

And, yes, in my opinion, this topic is done. I haven't seen anything in this topic that is new. It's just the same complaints over and over with, maybe, if we're lucky, a new scapegoat or specific example. In fact, most of this was said within the first week of release. It's been over a year since release. At this point, most of you are just rephrasing articles (many from SCL) and previous posts.

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Tru dat, but the repetition is because some people still think the storyline was good. :)

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Originally Posted by TychusFindlay

The way I see it, either HOTS will redeem the series or the series will only be a MP series in most people's eyes.

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It's 99% going to be the latter, and people will still be surprised. Blizz plans out their stories way in advance, and it's doubtful they might have even incorporated any feedback from the WoL criticism, apart from maybe changing some dialog. Unless there was a major staffing change, there's no reason to assume we're going to be getting anything that's not just more of the same. Sooner people accept this the better off they'll be. :P

I still don't see why that line with the brother is repeatedly singled out for being bad.

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Tru dat, but the repetition is because some people still think the storyline was good.

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There also Justin Bieber fangirls/boys (Beliebers) but I leave them alone.

I'll admit though, if I were still a troll like I was before beta and this wasn't a community I respected so much, I'd have a lot of fun with these people who think the SC2 SP stands up to SC1's :D

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Originally Posted by Gradius

The SP was still saved b/c of the good level design and the sheer skill & attention-to-detail of the art team. The in-game cinematics were great IMO. If the story team showed half the dedication of the art team, this would be a AAA title. Seriously, you see on the DVD an artist being tasked with creating a larvae and saying "The larva is a dumb 3 segmented worm but I wanted to look at it and say that's the best dumb 3 segmented worm we've ever created." Meanwhile the writing team is spewing out gems like "my brother went off to the mines last week. he disappeared".

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I have to agree here completely. Like I said, I still enjoyed it, but it was nowhere near as good as the original. I hope that the story team takes things more seriously this time around.

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Originally Posted by Aldrius

They just banked WAYYY too much on player's nostalgia seeing them through the story.

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This is an interesting take. Are you saying that people who like WoL's story (and what the writers are trying to push) are using the nostalgia from SC1 to mask over the obvious cracks in WoL's story? Those same people also tend to defend WoL's story by saying that it is nostalgia for SC1 that makes one blind to the goodness that is Wol's story. You really have to wonder sometimes...

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Originally Posted by Gradius

It's 99% going to be the latter, and people will still be surprised. Blizz plans out their stories way in advance, and it's doubtful they might have even incorporated any feedback from the WoL criticism, apart from maybe changing some dialog. Unless there was a major staffing change, there's no reason to assume we're going to be getting anything that's not just more of the same. Sooner people accept this the better off they'll be. :P

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Way to crush our hopes and dreams, Gradius!! :p

It's hard to believe they won't make any significant story changes given they're spending 2 years on each of these expansions but I guess it's hard to when the core premise of Sc2 is really just a gimmick anyway (ie: the unraveling of the mysteries that are the Xel'Naga - wooo, epic!!!:rolleyes:)

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

Way to crush our hopes and dreams, Gradius!! :p

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That's why I'm here. :)

But seriously, they had the previsualization for that leaked hots cinematic even before WoL came out. And it was confirmed to be real at the time. So even if they changed it since then, I can't imagine the main story being any different from what they already planned in the get-go.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

it was confirmed to be real at the time.

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I don't doubt its authenticity but proof of confirmation please?

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I can't imagine the main story being any different from what they already planned in the get-go.

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Yeah, I don't really see how it can end much differently from that leaked ending. I must admit I certainly didn't see that ending coming when I first saw the WOL ending cinematic. Except that oh wait yes I did. :rolleyes: I was also pretty foolish to not see WOL ending coming a mile away (what with that piece of concept art from years ago and comments from Metzen quoted on wikipedia and such) but I guess I refused to believe that WOL would have something occur for the sole purpose of being undone in HOTS. Oh how naive I was.

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I don't doubt its authenticity but proof of confirmation please?

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Activision Blizzard sent out mass C&D demands to posters of the video under a copyright claim by them. You don't claim a copyright of something you don't own. And, you don't own something that isn't legit. It's also doubtful it was some side possibility given the effort put into it. (I never saw it though)

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This is an interesting take. Are you saying that people who like WoL's story (and what the writers are trying to push) are using the nostalgia from SC1 to mask over the obvious cracks in WoL's story? Those same people also tend to defend WoL's story by saying that it is nostalgia for SC1 that makes one blind to the goodness that is Wol's story. You really have to wonder sometimes...

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I'm suggesting BLIZZARD counted too much on the player's nostalgia to bother making Kerrigan an interesting and imposing villain IN Wings of Liberty. I think they figured they didn't have to.

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Originally Posted by Aldrius

I'm suggesting BLIZZARD counted too much on the player's nostalgia to bother making Kerrigan an interesting and imposing villain IN Wings of Liberty. I think they figured they didn't have to.

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You're right, all sequels do this and rely on nostalgia of the previous entry to a degree. It's funny because those who like WoL's story often say it's the nostalgia for the old Sc1 that is making people (who don't like WoL's story that is) 'hate' WoL's story. The question then becomes, how can the 'hater' not be nostalgic if what you say is true and Blizzard is relying on it to move their current story? As Luke said: "That's impossible!"

It's not the nostalgia. It's the fact that, when StarCraft came out, it's story was revolutionary for RTS and, from there, mountains and mountains of anticipation and expectations were mounted. It's not the warm fuzzy feeling.

Personally I think that many of WOL's critics are using their nostalgia for the first game to criticize WOL and act like the first game had no flaws and that WOL somehow betrayed everything. You know acting like SC1 was some sort of paragon of originality and such. However none of this makes WOL's story actually good.

Edit: I agree that the super high expectations didn't help either. It was going to be really difficult to not feel letdown after all of the hype and 12 year wait. Especially considering the hole the writers wrote themselves in with BW.

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Originally Posted by Laurentian

Personally I think that many of WOL's critics are using their nostalgia for the first game to criticize WOL and act like the first game had no flaws and that WOL somehow betrayed everything. You know acting like SC1 was some sort of paragon of originality and such. However none of this makes WOL's story actually good.

Edit: I agree that the super high expectations didn't help either. It was going to be really difficult to not feel letdown after all of the hype and 12 year wait. Especially considering the hole the writers wrote themselves in with BW.

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Good story doesn't mean "flawless" or "original" (you could have one that logically answers to both of the criteria but still ends up being extremely boring and sterile). The first StarCraft had a lot of power in it (for lack of a better way to put it), it got certain archetypes right and it hit certain notes right, and a lot of it comes down to more than just writing (which wasn't bad to begin with), it was the music, the mood created, the voice acting, images, art direction, vistas evoked and imagination sparked. It created a universe with horizons. WoL did the very opposite of that, creating a very "shut in" story which got a lot of things wrong and lost much of the appeal StarCraft had. There are glimpses here and there of the sequel that could've and should've been, but they are very faint.

And by the way, just how exactly did the writers "write themselves into a hole" with BW? It created a setup for one hell of a sequel.

P.S. Going out on a limb here, but "flawlessness" and "perfection" are really stupid terms to judge a story by. Shakespeare wasn't perfect (downright stupid and vulgar at times in fact), nor were "Beowulf", "Moby Dick" or "Crime and Punishment". A good story is one that sticks with you and makes a good impression, rough spots, plot holes and all.

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Originally Posted by Eligor

And by the way, just how exactly did the writers "write themselves into a hole" with BW? It created a setup for one hell of a sequel.

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He does have a point, here. By the end of BW, it is heavily intimated that the Zerg and Kerrigan are a force that cannot be reckoned with. Both Protoss homeworlds are all but destroyed and the Terran Dominion had been upended with Mengsk being humiliated and crushed by both the UED and Kerrigan. It seemed inevitable that Kerrigan would soon destroy them in their entirety before they could get a chance to effectively resist her.

I think the massive power imbalance in BW is partially to blame for how the story has progressed into WoL. What could've stopped Kerrigan from steam-rolling everyone? It surely wasn't Kerrigan having a change of heart by the end of BW since WoL still clearly paints her as "Grrr, I'm evil and I'm going to kill you all!" Hmmm, I know an Easter Egg hunt! One that takes 4 years but somehow yields no results.....

They needed a 'rabbit out of the hat' and that's what WoL appears to be.

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Originally Posted by Eligor

A good story is one that sticks with you and makes a good impression, rough spots, plot holes and all.

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I took the liberty of adding 'good' to your above statement. Otherwise, WoL is a good story because it sure made an impression on me. (It was a bad one if you haven't noticed by now :D)

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

He does have a point, here. By the end of BW, it is heavily intimated that the Zerg and Kerrigan are a force that cannot be reckoned with. Both Protoss homeworlds are all but destroyed and the Terran Dominion had been upended with Mengsk being humiliated and crushed by both the UED and Kerrigan. It seemed inevitable that Kerrigan would soon destroy them in their entirety before they could get a chance to effectively resist her.

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Things always become the most interesting when the heroes are facing impossible odds, and BW seemed to set up just the situation. Imagine, the Korpulu Sector 5 years after the battle of Omega, the Protoss while still formidable are a shadow of their former might, the Dominion somehow manages to hold itself together mainly due to formidable bureaucracy and Mengsk's tyrannical rule so humanity's not at its best either. Everyone lives under the constant threat of the Swarm, which may not have materialized yet but would be unleashed with an apocalyptic force once it does (actually a situation in essence not too different from the one at the beginning of George R.R. Martin's Ice and Fire books if you substitute the Others for the Zerg, and look what he did with it!). And then there are the Hybrids and Duran's machinations to shake things up (and unanswered questions about the nature and purpose of the Xel'Naga, as well as the Umojan Protectorate and Kel-Morian Combine as potential players in the game of which we have heretofore seen very little). Frankly it's a set-up that would take deliberately bad writing and plotting to screw up, and WoL pretty much did.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

I think the massive power imbalance in BW is partially to blame for how the story has progressed into WoL. What could've stopped Kerrigan from steam-rolling everyone? It surely wasn't Kerrigan having a change of heart by the end of BW since WoL still clearly paints her as "Grrr, I'm evil and I'm going to kill you all!" Hmmm, I know an Easter Egg hunt! One that takes 4 years but somehow yields no results.....

They needed a 'rabbit out of the hat' and that's what WoL appears to be.

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Not necessarily, it was pretty clear that she wasn't interested in completely wiping out the Terran and Protoss almost out of apathy and security in her own position as ruler of the Swarm and one could write a story in which she loses her power littlle by little due to a combination of several factors. It was interesting when Infested Kerrigan with her alien (though perhaps not entirely inhuman) motives worked towards achieving a sentience in the Zerg. Had she succeeded it could've led to a rebellion against her by a part of the nascently conscious Swarm (think less Brood War/regaining control of the Zerg and rather more as a riff on the Frankenstein story). Some of the newly sentient Zerg could stay loyal to her (why? another question that begs for a good explanation and provides potentially interesting story threads), some could defect and form a new Zerg faction (with all the inherent potential for more worldbuilding and riffing on the idea of the Zerg). And that's just one idea that builds on previous events. And besides, the Hybrids could've been a VERY interesting "rabbit" had Blizzard decided to give them a more thorough and thought out treatment and focused on them rather than deciding to de-infest Kerrigan and make her the "star of the show" (the "superhero team" approach to writing that WoL adopted, where a few individual heroes take all the canvas and start deciding the fate of the universe).

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

I took the liberty of adding 'good' to your above statement. Otherwise, WoL is a good story because it sure made an impression on me. (It was a bad one if you haven't noticed by now :D)

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Thanks! Duly noted and corrected. :D

Eligor, I like your approach, you should write at least synopsis for Blizzard. :-)

To TychusFindlay: Fair point, but just NO would be better in that case than LOL NO.

To Aldrius: This is exactly what I was talking about when I was speaking about bad performance from Kerrigan in WoL.

To Gradius: You are pessimist or realist, I hope the first, but think the latter. :-(

About story: What I do not understand, is why is anyone's goal to utterly destroy everything (Dark Voice)? I would understand he wants to utterly destroy something (Protoss or others), but by destroying everything what could you gain from it? Maybe because Xel'Naga are almost just like gods, they can start anew? - I don't like these prophecies in sci-fi, I think they are much better in fantasy settings. Sci-fi should be more real world and technological, gods are better for fantasy in my eyes.

What I liked so much on Starcraft story was the feeling that the main protagonists are just like ordinary people, they were fallible and mortal. But in WoL this feeling is gone, they are more like superheroes from cartoons - I don't have anything against superheroes or cartoons but I want something different from Starcraft and it was much more in SC1 and it is much less in SC2 IMO.

And about the nostalgia, I don't think it plays huge role, only many people from both camps are talking about it so much. But if you'll see what majority of people are thinking about mission design, you'll see the difference, while mission design in SC2 is praised and almost everyone is talking about much better design than in SC1 the story is on the opposite side - majority of people, at least from what I can say from my observation, think the story was much better in SC1. So it is not because of nostalgia IMO, but because there is big difference between the quality of the story and the quality of mission design in SC2. It is not only SC2 which went down with the quality of story, it can be observed in majority of movie series as well and especially in remakes (Predators, Clash of the Titans and so on - these movies are just for special effects, but the story is crap, much worse than in their predecessors, and it is not nostalgia). EDIT: And I know the story of Predator and original Clash of the Titans wasn't anything special, but it was functional, logical, it made sense and it was fun to watch, contrary to these remakes, where the characters are barely caricatures of those from the original movies - because the new story doesn't make sense, also these new characters cannot make sense. I don't know how to write it clearly in English, almost so in Czech, but I hope it is clear what I mean.

Prophecy can be a deduction out from previously held data. An inevitability either through force or natural progression(induction) of the defined universe in the story. In WoL's case, supposedly, manipulation by a greater race, which is only slightly hinted at through the artifact. The artifact is still a mystery though, and so only hints at this, but what it actually hints at with regards to how prophecy is defined in this story is largely uncertain.

If the Xel'Naga is later presented as beings who are also merely believers of this Prophecy, then this type of Prophecy is much like supernatural. To have a known source of such an inevitability, or cause of, would give it a "Sci-fi stamp". This is true IF the Xel'Naga are the uber-est of uber in this story's universe.

But if they made a distinction that only Zeratul calls this Prophecy, and later reveal that this messages were "plans and promises" of the Xel'Naga, or even what they see would most likely or eventually happen because of their actions, then that would make a difference.

Gods can be uber beings that have qualities which are unknown to other beings. It's impossible to not be able to comprehend something when data is given.

So, Gods in sci-fi are eventually made apparent, and so become just uber. Their deification relies in their being hidden (so to speak) and whose effects or actions extend beyond what is accepted as normal or even uber in the eyes of the other characters or the world presented to the audience.

This however, hasn't been hinted at or discussed by the characters in WoL, therefore, we the audience don't get an idea of how Gods are understood or perceived by the characters in this story's universe.

At least, if there had been a character that interacted with Zeratul and argued his beliefs regarding Gods and Prophecy, making it an argument between fact vs fantasy, then we the audience would have gained a solid footing of what the this story's universe stand for with respect to these issues.

The Cave mission is ripe for this. Zeratul could have argued with himself in that mission regarding this subject as he interacted with things Xel'Naga in that moon/planet.

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Originally Posted by Eligor

Imagine, the Korpulu Sector 5 years after the battle of Omega, the Protoss while still formidable are a shadow of their former might, the Dominion somehow manages to hold itself together mainly due to formidable bureaucracy and Mengsk's tyrannical rule so humanity's not at its best either. Everyone lives under the constant threat of the Swarm, which may not have materialized yet but would be unleashed with an apocalyptic force once it does (actually a situation in essence not too different from the one at the beginning of George R.R. Martin's Ice and Fire books if you substitute the Others for the Zerg, and look what he did with it!). And then there are the Hybrids and Duran's machinations to shake things up (and unanswered questions about the nature and purpose of the Xel'Naga,

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Um, isn't that kinda already the situation that exists in WOL?

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As well as the Umojan Protectorate and Kel-Morian Combine as potential players in the game of which we have heretofore seen very little).

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Good point. One of my main gripes with the SP campaign thus far.

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Frankly it's a set-up that would take deliberately bad writing and plotting to screw up, and WoL pretty much did.

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That's a bit much isn't it? I'm fairly sure they didn't deliberately set out to screw up the story. In any case, whether they actually 'screwed up' or not is still debatable.

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Originally Posted by phazonjunkie

That's a bit much isn't it? I'm fairly sure they didn't deliberately set out to screw up the story. In any case, whether they actually 'screwed up' or not is still debatable.

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But that's the real problem, isn't it? While perhaps not deliberate, Blizzard did mess up in the execution of a number of themes they themselves specified as intending to deliver. For instance:

1. Kerrigan is the key to saving the universe
On paper, this is an interesting development/twist. However, Blizzard went about revealing it in the worst way possible - as a prophecy that is presented in a vision of a vision of a vision; making it more convoluted than it needed to. Honestly, I'm surprised people aren't referring to those missions as the Inception missions.

2. They say Arcturus Mengsk is a vicious tyrant and an imposing threat to Raynor
Yet, he proves unable to make so much as a dent against Raynor's rebellion and is even unable to defend his own capital against the rebel leader. Any credibility he had went out the window thanks to Kate Lockwell's continued ability to poke holes at the obvious propaganda (even though Mengsk is specified by Blizzard as a master manipulator of the media). Lastly, we don't actually see Mengsk and the Dominion do anything bad. Consolidating his forces at major production and population centres instead of spreading them thin during a massive enemy invasion is a logical and reasonable decision. Meanwhile, Raynor and seeks to destabilise the one authority that is keeping the Terran population unified in the midst of said alien invasion and is involved in terrorist-like activities (attacking support facilities and launching a surprise attack in the middle of a city). As such, Mengsk's villainy feels a lot like an informed attribute.

3. Kerrigan had a reason for not destroying everyone in the last 4 years
Blizzard highlighted this multiple times throughout SC2's development. However, if there was one in WoL, it wasn't obvious unless it was simply because the Dark Voice didn't want her to (which is a lousy excuse). And given the major restructuring of the Zerg hierarchy following WoL's ending, it's unlikely the subject will be brought up in sequels as its past the point of its importance/relevance.


Now, on the subject of the humour and cheesiness:

I think many people's problems about it stems from two main reasons. Firstly, one liners such as "Bout time we kicked this revolution into overdrive!", "James Raynor, I bring tidings of doom..." (along with the rest of that speech) and "She's come to finish the job." were written with advertising/promotion and trailers in mind. While making good sound bites on their own, they often feel awkward, silly and unrealistic when put into context. Or, in the case of the third example, needlessly misleading - especially since we find out shortly after (I think it's possibly in the very next mission if you play Findlay's one) that she's after the Artifacts rather than simply trying to massacre everyone.

The second is about who's involved in the humour. Back in SC1, while the Terran cinematics frequently featured silly hijinks, this mainly involved nameless, one-off characters. So, while they do make the Terrans look like idiots as a whole, the main characters remain uninvolved and thus are able to still appear serious and respectable. In SC2, the stuff are now being performed by the game's named characters themselves; making them look foolish and causing them to lose credibility in the process.

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Originally Posted by mr. peasant

2. They say Arcturus Mengsk is a vicious tyrant and an imposing threat to Raynor

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This could have been executed better like this:

1. Arcturus gains ground against Raynor, and finally corners the Raiders.

2. The Zerg attack begins, allowing Raynor to escape Mar Sara, and leave Arcturus stuck fighting the broods sent there.

3. Tychus arrives as the execution of Mengk's plan B, while he deals with the Zerg. A plan to keep tag of the Raiders.

Or,

1. Show that Raynor and his Raiders are celebrated, and so would make it hard for Arcturus to just destroy them physically, and so must politically destroy Raynor.

I think this was what the writers intended to imply with the opening news cast. All the news cast needed was to show that Arcturus' reign is somewhat unstable after Broodwar, and through the 4 years, Raynor have been gaining huge public support. Or in a way have caused the people to further doubt Arcturus' credibility to some extent.

In the mission where you go for the first artifact, the civilians there actually knows the Raiders and welcome them.

I think a boo from the crowd in that TV speech would have sufficed to point this out, then amplified through the following missions.

The adjutant could have then prompted Raynor to receive a distress call from a channel, telling us that supporters are being rallied, and Raynor would say the "Let's kick this..." thing.

The people who wrote dialogue for Blizzard clearly left the company a long time ago