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Originally Posted by Gradius
IIRC, according to the news reports, the extended swarm was only in the process of being recalled to Char; it obviously hadn't all made it back yet. That was kinda the whole point, Raynor & Co. had to hurry up & take care of business before Kerrigan's reinforcements showed up.
We all know that more and more zerg advanced to kill them all in the last mission. And without the artifact they would be easily outnumbered several times.
Remember that at the end of the ending cinematic of WoL we also see how the fleet is being wrecked by something. It could be the Zerg reinforcements or even Dominion forces.Quote:
Originally Posted by phazonjunkie
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Originally Posted by mr. peasant
There's not even an if in this situation. She was planning on doing so, and directly stated to the characters and the player that this was the case.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerrigan
The report said "most of the aliens appear to be massing near the fiery planet." Obviously they're still in transit, but that seems to say that alot of them have returned. The news report was after the first Char mission. If the Zerg didn't already pretty much all arrive, then they should have by all-in. Even a fifth of the full Zerg swarm should have crushed them IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by phazonjunkie
All I saw was a fleet of Dominion battlecruisers flying overhead, with one of them engulfed in flames and going down. There were no other explosions or weapons fire indicating that a battle was still raging at that point. It simply meant that the remainder of valerian's fleet had succeeded in securing the planet and were now patrolling it's skies/maintaining low orbit, sort of reminiscent of the UED victory report that showed it's fleet occupying char in BW.Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Blade
It's not that 'ludicrous'. There have been multiple unmolested landings upon Char by both Protoss and Terran armies in SC1 when the Overmind was still around (Duke, Raynor and Tassadar for example). Even in BW, Raynor and co. were able to land almost right on top of the new Overmind (granted it was weak - you'd think it'd still be powerful enough to prevent a landing right next to it!!). Not to mention Kerrigan landing her own 'rebel' Zerg force on UED controlled Char in "To Slay the Beast" (there would have been enemy Zerg forces and the UED crawling over that planet, too). Indeed, BW has a lot of planet-hopping between missions and yet no-one gripes about that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Josue
Afterall, we are talking about a planet here. I'd think it would be difficult or next to impossible to maintain constant, up-to-date surveillance across the entire surface to prevent all intrusions. Also consider that Raynor's forces were scattered when they attempted that landing - they had to regroup and work their way through before assaulting Kerrigan. It wasn't like they landed right on top of her (although it does feel like it due to the short number of missions on Char). Also consider that Kerrigan wanted them to come to her - she wanted the artifacts too remember?
What's more ludicrous is Raynor's ability to land an army in the major city of Korhal without nary an explanation and to also defeat the entire garrison along with their reinforcements. WTF? This mission would have made more sense as a strict covert operation rather than what we got because it's the frickin' capital of the Dominion!! Is the major Terran faction and 2nd most powerful faction that limp-wristed they can't fend off a small military incursion on their own world? At least we kinda get the impression that Raynor would be eventually crushed on Char whereas he just seems to nick-off Korhal without batting an eyelid.
Just goes to show you. 'Science fiction writers have no sense of scale.' Apparently in some cases, neither do it's fans.....:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Turalyon
Such are the sacrifices you make when you try to merge gameplay with lore.
Yeah I recall I fought several battles on char in starcraft 1 . . .
Uh... well, now that you mention it, that sounds logical. yeah, a good reason for it to work. However the reasons behind it are... well, everyone seemed to be going after the artifacts, how come Raynor, Tychus and ultimately Valerian knew where to find them and Kerrigan had to "spread the swarms across the universe" to find them?Quote:
Originally Posted by phazonjunkie
Wouldn't it be more logical for Zeratul to know such a thing?
True, it's not that ludicrous, but the end of BW showed that the swarms under the control of kerrigan made the planet quite more dangerous than before. Yeah, it's possible to land on char, after all it's an entire planet, but return from there triumphant? Well, let's just say it was not ludicrous, but certianly they were extremely lucky and the artifact was too perfect for the task.Quote:
Originally Posted by Turalyon
Yeah, she wanted the artifacts... but what for? the artifacts combined into a special X'elnaga magic thing that would magically undo the terrible process infestation means!!! Any explanations on that? nano machines that (among other weird things) reconstruct DNA code maybe?Quote:
Originally Posted by Turalyon
So what for would Kerrigan want them? And if she wanted them so badly and she even menaced to infest them... wouldn't she just begin to do it and quickly leave them all infested? If she had begun infestation, all their troops would be infested before you choose to either blow the space platform or "Belly of the beast"!!! (remember how Zerg infest entire planets)
Yeah, the artifact helped a lot in the last mission, but how about before?
Was Kerrigan less intelligent than in BW where she would be a treacherous devil girl with traps set everywhere? Maybe even being as clever as a snake, she makes mistakes, and this slip up luckily gave us the last bit of advantage
we needed to do what (in StarCraft and BW) was unthinkable? (undo, cure the infestation process)
Well, it seems story repeats itself. but in this case that's even more mysterious: Tychus was a dominion spy, his armor was his prission and it could kill him anytime... why risk to betray Arcturus Mengks by stealing the Odin and whats' more: come with it to Khoral as if nothing had happened? (yeah, the entire base where Odin was being developed was blown by Tychus, remember the "Oh, how come I didn't see this red button before" lol :D that was fun, but... he nuked that base!!! How come they didn't even seem to notice it?)Quote:
Originally Posted by Turalyon
Or maybe it was already part of Mengk's plans? Maybe he wanted Jim to succeed just because of his son's plan? And thus he sent Tychus to make sure Kerrigan would die?
All I can say is that... well, some things are quite cool about SC II Wings of Libery, however there are still things that must be covered and explained with the incoming expansions. It's not a matter of ditching it saying "they screwed up the single player", yeah, right now with only 1/3 of the story, some things sound wild, insane, even preposterous, but... I think they still have 2/3ds of the story to tell, I think they can still make fit all the pieces of the puzzle.
Yeah, some stuff has changed in a bad way (remember Goliath's voice? No LAN, yeah, things like that.)
Uh? and this? When SCII was in the beta phase, I was in this thread:Quote:
Originally Posted by phazonjunkie
http://sclegacy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2007
wondering if Blizzard would say anything about sizes in StarCraft. How big is a Battlecruiser? A Carrier? A MotherShip? What size are the planets there? How big is Char? How big is Tarsonis or Khoral? How about Aiur? Is it an Earth sized planet? Such Detailed info is not clear.
There was indeed the sense at the end of BW that Kerrigan turned Char into an infernal deathtrap from which no army could hope to escape unbeaten (not that Char wasn't an infernal deathtrap already). At the end of BW we learn that even space platforms above Char are infested and that it's covered with countless hive clusters. If the Protoss can't retake Aiur which (if I'm not mistaken) is much larger with a much more scattered and weaker Zerg presence then the ease of the Dominion's/Raynor's move against Char at the end of Wings is indeed quite ludicrous. It would've been more believable were there two or three more missions dedicated to it, with a greater sense of the losses sustained by the fleet and ground forces. Gaining a foothold on Char is probably not impossible, but it's not going to make anyone look like an invincible hero in shining armour (the way Raynor's presented at the end of Wings).
Blizzard did by the way release some pretty detailed info about a few planets (inculding size, population, climate and even orbital tilt and distance from the sun I think) on the old SC 2 website, but I don't know whether those articles are still there on the new one. Now if only they released the same kind of detailed RPG style info about Terran and Protoss tech and Zerg biology. Or shown the same kind of care and attention to detail in writing Wings (we wouldn't have that ridiculous Media Blitz mission plothole then, or the puerile, repetitive and unfunny Dominion newscasts).
This is a very good question. If Kerrigan was as dominant as it is suggested after the events of BW, how come she has yet to fine even one of these artifacts?Quote:
Originally Posted by Josue
Consider this. At the end of BW, it is implied that nothing can touch Kerrigan and that she has the manpower (or 'zergpower'? :p) to sweep everyone aside if she decides to. She has a headstart over everyone else in terms of resources, 'man/zergpower' and most importantly, time. Yet after 4 years she's got nothing to show for herself - not even one measly artifact piece. I'm not saying she should have all the pieces (afterall, the ease at which they were found in WoL was a nod to an obviously powerful 'outside' influence - Narud and his possible association with Duran) but it's hard to fathom how she could have wasted so much time and not even find one if she really wanted them in the first place. For Godsake, one artifact piece was lying right there on Mar Sara, a planet the Zerg had occupied since the beginning of Sc1 and had been still even after Protoss bombardment (see Mara Sara entry on Battle.net)!
I can see an 'out' for the writers though. They could just as easily say that the artifact was not actually complete in WoL and that Kerrigan did have one piece secretly hidden and was playing them all along for some reason or another. At any rate, whatever they come up with the setup is there for more convoluted, gimmicky, BS plot devices.
I've always wondered how Kerrigan was able to be built-up to be such an 'uber-powerful' as it is heavily implied in SC2, when all she really was in the beginning was tool for the Overmind in SC1 and one that successfully over-extended itself in BW. I fail to see how Kerrigan controlling the Zerg would make Char more secure than what the Overmind was able to achieve when it was around. As I said before, both Terran and Protoss forces were still able to land on Char with the Overmind still being around...Quote:
Originally Posted by Josue
Convenience of the artifact aside (don't get me started on that again :rolleyes:), it really is the only reason why Raynor was able to get that far on Char I think. Who knows, Raynor's victory on Char may have been a 'blind-side' by Kerrigan as I suggested above. As you know, Blizzard loves this notion of bringing up revelations that are hitherto unknown and therefore surprising but you really shouldn't be because they were actually there from the beginning (read: retcons, which are NOT necessarily bad).Quote:
Originally Posted by Josue
On the surface it does seem like an all-too convenient means to destroy Zerg and remove infestation. That alone should be reason enough for Kerrigan to want it - so that others won't have it. The "what, why and when" Kerrigan needs the artifacts can be easily explained to verying degrees of believability. The "how" (as in how she wasn't able to get one) is another thing. The only reason, given the position she's in since BW, is that she's very incompetent. That doesn't sit right with me for some reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by Josue
There maybe an explanation for it's actual intended use in the expansions. Who knows, I don't really care much for it anymore. It was an ass-pull plot device to begin with, so there can be only be an ass-pull logic/reason for it (help Xel'Naga breed/splice DNA/empowering device for Hybrids :rolleyes: Starcraft was never these things when it first started out)
The artifact was not complete until those last missions. It wouldn't have worked until then, I'd guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by Josue
I don't mind seeing characters make mistakes - SC1 was full of them but the Overmind springs to mind considering it was the most powerful which people then mistake as being infallible. That's the thing, the OM was never infallible. People tend to diss it's decision to attack Aiur without Kerrigan, but people fail to see it was a split decision/ a tactical error which seemed right at the time (I've discussed this elsewhere).
On the other hand, the de-infestation of Kerrigan being described as a mistake on Kerrigan's behalf doesn't sit well with me considering all that I've discussed above. I'm not sure whether I like the alternative either since if she intended to be un-infested from the start and had planned all these events in a game of Xanatos Roulette, it is still laughably unbelievable.
Mengsk is a curious character in WoL. He does come across as a bit naive and dare I say it, stupid in WoL (what with the Odin incident, the use of Tychus and Valerian stealing half his fleet) but this actually started happening in BW (he thinks DuGalle will have it easy on him when he's captured, believes Kerrigan absolutely when we all I know she's lying and has no backup plans whatsoever), so there is some continuity there. It's almost a different person when you contrast it with Mengsk in Sc1. Either way, he's shaping up to be quite the caricature of your typical villain. He's certainly got the beard and mustache ready for stroking and tweaking if need be!Quote:
Originally Posted by Josue
Mengsk sending Tychus to do... whatever (kill Kerrigan, handle/control Raynor through spying, setting-up a puppet Emperor in Valerian by purposefully ruining himself or other similarly themed conspiracy :rolleyes:) has problems of plausibility - ones that are too numerous, have been covered before and usually fall into the "Xanatos Gambit/Roulette" basket.
It would have been nice to see Mengsk being less two-dimensional in WoL. In Sc1, it was clear that Mengsk was a pragmatist and in a universe as bleak as SC, pragmatism is a very good trait to have in a leader when survival is on the line. WoL had the chance to show the dichotomy of Mengsk's pragmatic leadership being a 'good' thing for the entire Terran cause and contrasting it with Raynor's more personal and subjective sense of justice as not necessarily being a 'good' thing for the Terran cause. There were hints of it in the backstory to WoL but it never develops during WoL and all we get is the good ol' boy Raynor always being just and right all the time vs the evil, scheming, manipulative, villainous and sometimes stupid Mengsk. *sigh*
No doubt they'll find the pieces to the puzzle. Whether the completion of said puzzle will resonate and be memorable remains to be seen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Josue
There is a sense that Raynor won't escape Char without a victory over Kerrigan specifically, since the entire Zerg Swarm is heading back to Char. I agree that it's very understated so we don't really get a sense of it, but it is there! Once again, I doubt that Kerrigan could do a better job in securing Char than what the Overmind could do when it was around.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eligor
The Protoss aren't in a position to do jack-squat with them being almost near extinct (both their major homeworlds - Aiur and Shakuras are devastated and vastly de-populated) so it makes sense they can't retake Aiur. It will be interesting to see how the writers will retcon the extent of the devastation that has been wrought upon them since at this stage, the Protoss almost seem like a non-entity. On the otherhand, the Terrans appear to be more hardy at any rate. Keep in mind, that Kerrigan initiated an invasion. Char was their originating point, so the vast Swarms are supposedly over-extended therefore allowing Raynor's group to sneak in and therefore it's not entirely ludicrous for him to land a strikeforce (he still had quite some difficulty might I add). Sure, once again it's not very clear but it is mentioned in WoL.
I agree that more missions on Char would've been nice to expand that section more (especially considering that the majority of the story actually only really started happening there!) but be thankful there were two missions before "All-In". Remember in BW, Kerrigan was able to land on Char when the UED had full control over the new Overmind (Char would've been crawling with both rival Zerg swarms and the UED fleet - especially around the new Overmind) without any lead-up missions on Char.
Lets not forget what "evil-Kerrigan" actually did during those 4 years. We all know that she changed the hierarchy of zerg. She made them independent from one another, and we all sort of know that she will once again be the queen of blades. How do we all not know this is a reuse of a sort of "great Overmind plan" but this is Kerrigans plan, she says she has seen the future. The expansion have a big chance of being "epic fail", but they can also be good and explain all those missing puzzle bits. Srsly we need to have more puzzle bites about the hybrids and Duran from sc1, since in WoL they just say that it's the end of the world and everything they can must be done to stop it. Then suddenly it's just forgotten like it never happened.
I agree... I certainly hope the things all fit in together without being silly and convoluted. Some good, simple answers would be lovely.
Don't tell anyone about this but inside sources tell me that all of Sc1 and Sc2 was nothing more but a pre-cognitive dream from the Overmind while it is still actually making its way to Protoss space. The reason why the events from Sc2 are kinda funny was because the Overmind was getting closer to Protoss space and it 'weirded out' in anticipation of finally meeting the Protoss. *Mind blown* ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Alar
Obviously Chris Metzen has lost his touch
Because obviously the SP succeeds or fails by Chris Metzen alone.
But Chris Metzen is still the lead writer, not Andy Chambers/Brian Kindregarn, right? :PQuote:
Originally Posted by TychusFindlay
No? Well, ok... :/
Lead writer means they just use lead pencils like the old, out-dated dinosaurs they are.
Bawlin' Chris Metzen is pimpin' an iMac and is still the H.N.I.C. He is completely to blame for anything you deem to be unsatisfactory in StarCraft II.
Yup. Brian Kindregan is indeed the lead wroter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gradius
He wasn't really multidimensional in StarCraft 1. But he was a bit more vindicated and a bit less comically over the top. He was portrayed as capable and effective, but there was nothing really ambiguous about him, he was a pretty evil bastard.Quote:
It would have been nice to see Mengsk being less two-dimensional in WoL. In Sc1, it was clear that Mengsk was a pragmatist and in a universe as bleak as SC, pragmatism is a very good trait to have in a leader when survival is on the line.
Like I think the news broadcast from the end of the BW Terran campaign and the news broadcasts in WoL are perfect examples of the two games' different styles.
BW Terran - INCREDIBLY tongue in cheek. Dry. But still hilariously goofy.
WoL - Just... over the top ridiculous. Sort of amusing, but way too comical. Like the one in BW was played straight, and the PLAYER knew how ridiculous it was. But anyone watching the WoL broadcasts on their own is going to know how stupid they are.
They were just so much more childish.
All this talk about lead writers makes me wonder wonder why James Phinney (the other lead writer/story guy for the original Sc1) didn't have any input for Sc2...
I stand corrected. Mengsk in SC2 was not two dimensional as I had said since Sc1 Mengsk was more or less that (stern but seemingly 'good' at first and then megalomaniac evil at the end) if you want to boil it down to that extent. However, compared to the one-note 'moustache twirling, son-of-a-bitch evil' that is Mengsk in Sc2 (and possibly since BW even), it's hard not to say that Sc1 Mengsk is multi-dimensional. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Aldrius
Its simple, the people who made SC1 didn't make SC2, at least not all of them
Blizzard knows SC2 was going to sell just because of the title, and they didn't work as hard as they had to with SC1, its sad but its true
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Originally Posted by Turalyon
Flanderization: It happens, deal with it. And not just with Mengsk either, apparently all returning characters underwent some level of it, especially so with Kerrigan.
Quote:
Originally Posted by phazonjunkie
Aaaah, the cornerstone of high-brow entertainment...
Yeah no, no. No.Quote:
Blizzard knows SC2 was going to sell just because of the title, and they didn't work as hard as they had to with SC1, its sad but its true
I agree with the sentiment about not feeling pressued in the campaign, it never felt like I was leading some small ragtag band of rebels like the Raiders are supposed to be. It felt like SC1 and SC2 where I was the general of a large army.
Besides that, I seem to be in the minority in that I don't think they "scewed up" the single player, and am not sure in what capacity that comment was made so I don't know how to reply further. I'm playing through it again for fun and both mission and storywise it's perfectly fine.
The Hyperion crew were not "yes men" to Raynor. Matt often questioned his trust in Tychus, he and Tosh had to develop their respect for each other and at once point Tosh flat refuses to speak to you because Raynor is distrusting, and Tychus made it regularly known he didn't care for playing hero by helping people for no profit. That said though, what could any of them really do about it? SC1's story was "don't like your commander? Betray them, there's plenty of other factions who will take you". But this game, Tychus has to stick around for his mission, Tosh is relying on Raynor to free his comrades, and Matt has been with Raynor all along and is not about to desert him. And if they did decide to betray Raynor and desert, where could they go anyway?
So yeah, how did they screw up the single player? They didn't.
Agreed that SC2 relied too heavily on gimmick missions, the exact opposite problem of the original game where it was "you've got a new unit or two in this mission, go destroy everything". But the energy nova was hardly a "get out of jail free card".Quote:
The final mission in SC2 was a gimmick mini game where you had to use some weird nova device as a get out of jail free card.
Well I'll assume you mean all of SC1, because there weren't 8 characters in just the Terran campaign. Duke and Aldaris were about as one-dimensional and cliched as they come, Daggoth and Zasz were just generic advisors and occasionally Zasz got lippy, Fenix was cool but he wasn't particularly deep, Overmind same deal, he was awesome but his character was pretty much non-existent. The only really multidimensional characters I see are Raynor, Kerrigan, Mengsk, Zeratul and Tassadar. Now, out of SC2's current cast none of them stand out to the same degree except Tosh and maybe Swann and Warfield, but it's the first game, let's see how the rest of the trilogy goes. For all we know in the sequel Warfield is gonna be torn between his respect for Raynor and having to fight him as a rebel while Tosh goes off on his own and forms his own faction.Quote:
Just playing the Terran campaign on youtube, there are like 8 completely multidimensional characters
Aldaris definitely wasn't one-dimensional. Aldaris changed his entire stance at the end of SC1, but then reverted to it, only it turns out he was right, which made him awesome. Tassadar was sort of one-dimensional, but I think his struggles were whether or not to fight the conclave. Fenix convinces him that yes, fighting the dogmatic conclave is the right path if they want to save their homeworld. Then afterwards Tassadar changes his mind.
Plenty of reasons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake Clawfang
1) Wrong kind of humor in all the wrong places. The newscasts were largely jokes, even though they're basically the player's only window into the outside world. As a result, the campaign itself ends up looking like a joke. The epic atmosphere before All-In on Char was ruined if you watched the newscast where all they reported on was Donny going insane & being found naked clad only in his socks.
And look @ the first mission newscast:
Come on, seriously, is this supposed to be real? And the fact that Kate has a job there is itself a joke.Quote:
Lockwell
Actually, the only civilian deaths appear to be collateral damage from overzealous Dominion Security Forc-
Vermillion
Thanks Kate! You heard it here first -- Jim Raynor, killing women and children on Mar Sara.
As for the rest of the humor in the campaign, it was a bit generic. Still funny, but I would have liked to see darker humor befitting the universe - something that wouldn't seem like it's made for little kids.
2) Total lack of twists or epic moments. Arthas killing Terenas in War3, or Tassadar tricking Kerrigan in SC1, all these moments surpass anything I've seen in SC2. The only "twist" in SC2 was spoiled from 13 miles away at the very beginning of the game.
3) The minor characters were handled bad. Katchinsky, Stetmann, Annabelle? I don't know anything about these guys, and the few lines of dialog they had when you clicked on them didn't help. And on a personal note, the character & voice acting of Hanson was godawful, as 1 dimensional as it gets.
4) Lack of a coherent plot. We got introduced to the Zerg invasion, but it's mish-mashed with the other goals of taking down Mengsk and hunting for artifacts. Who can truly say what this campaign was about? It's called Wings of Liberty, so that makes me think of the revolution against Mengsk, but not really.
5) Tychus being a spy for Mengsk was a silly & contrived plot device. If Tychus was in contact with Megnsk, why didn't he warn him about the attack on Korhal? Seems a bit useless to have a spy in Raynor's Raiders if it gets zero use. He had plenty of time between stealing the Odin & sitting in it while being shipped to Korhal. Raynor didn't even do anything upon learning that his best friend had a bomb in his suit.
6) Some of the dialog is pretty bad. It seems that the campaign was written by like 300 different people, and it shows. My advice is to replace the guy who wrote these lines:
Civilian
My brother went off to the mine last week. He disappeared!
Civilian
Bad guys are thatta way!
Warfield
Look at that thing. (giant platform exploding)
& whoever wrote the Zeratul talking to himself lines. As well as the cheesy cinematic where Raynor's speech is accidentally broadcasted over the radio and it's timed to end when the clouds part to let sunshine through upon the marines' visors.
6) Retcons. There have been lots of them, but some of them reek of lack of attention to detail. I don't like the Overmind retcon most of all, but that aside the entire mission where Tassadar comes back is important enough to have been a cinematic. But as Freespace told me, I guess it was more important to have Raynor share a beer with Tychus. Tassadar doesn't even get his own portrait for that important scene. The fly that Tychus squashed with his cigarette had 100x more work put into it than Tassadar's recycled Archon portrait.
And what exactly is the prophecy Zeratul was gathering for example? After he gets to the final shrine he says it "speaks of one who shall break the cycle of the gods". But apparently this isn't the real prophecy and needs to be translated again by 3 preservers. Kerrigan apparently already knows the prophecy and tells Zeratul:
So Zeratul already knows his race will be destroyed? Then why does he act so surprised when Tassadar tells him, and what's the point of this mission anyway?Quote:
Kerrigan (telepathic - in his head)
Why not surrender yourself to oblivion, Zeratul? Wouldn't it be better to end your struggle now than witness the final agonizing moments of your species?
Zeratul
The foreboding prophecy weighs heavily on my heart. I'd best reach the remaining shrines before she reconsiders letting me live.
Also, Stetman. How does he discover things that the Dominion seemingly doesn't have? Especially when Hanson calls the Hyperion's science expertise "non-existant". If you read any of the bios of Hyperion's crews, such as Stetman & Katchinsky, they're all apparently prodigies & geniuses.
Yes he did, in the expansion. Again, first game. Seems to be that everyone was expecting the level of storytelling and characterization form Part 1 of the trilogy that we got from the entirety of the original game and BW. Not Blizzard's fault or problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gradius
Nova's appearance, the discovery of the Adjutant with Mengsk's war crimes, Hanson's possible infestation. Agreed that the twists with Tychus and Valerian, as well as Zeratul's appearance, were spoiled.Quote:
2) Total lack of twists or epic moments.
Agreed.Quote:
3) The minor characters were handled bad. Katchinsky, Stetmann, Annabelle? I don't know anything about these guys, and the few lines of dialog they had when you clicked on them didn't help. And on a personal note, the character & voice acting of Hanson was godawful, as 1 dimensional as it gets.
Agreed, but the flaw there isn't the story itself, its Blizzard choosing to give us branching paths. The story would probably seem better if it was just the Artifact and Horner mission paths we went through.Quote:
4) Lack of a coherent plot. We got introduced to the Zerg invasion, but it's mish-mashed with the other goals of taking down Mengsk and hunting for artifacts. Who can truly say what this campaign was about? It's called Wings of Liberty, so that makes me think of the revolution against Mengsk, but not really.
The original game also had some sudden shifts in focus, to be fair. The Protoss campaign went from fighting the Zerg to tracking down Tassadar to fighting the Conclave back to fighting the Zerg. The entire subplot of the Protoss civil war was kind a waste of time, and besides that was the Conclave really so stupid as to send their head generals to fight a couple wayward deserters as opposed to fighting the alien race invading their home?
Agreed, this was poorly handled.Quote:
5) Tychus being a spy for Mengsk was a silly & contrived plot device. If Tychus was in contact with Megnsk, why didn't he warn him about the attack on Korhal? Seems a bit useless to have a spy in Raynor's Raiders if it gets zero use. He had plenty of time between stealing the Odin & sitting in it while being shipped to Korhal. Raynor didn't even do anything upon learning that his best friend had a bomb in his suit.
Agreed, but there were choice bits of dialogue in the original game that were cheesy too.Quote:
6) Some of the dialog is pretty bad. It seems that the campaign was written by like 300 different people, and it shows.
"You'll be the doom of us all!"
"WHO is this HUMAN, Tassadar?" (and people say Maar was hammy)
"You got a lot to answer for, little girl"
"I've always wanted to have you killed. This is kind of exciting for me."
Agreed that the Tassadar thing, as it stands, was stupid. HOWEVER, if they actually go somewhere with this and Tassadar is actually going to make more than a one-off appearance, we'll see.Quote:
6) Retcons. There have been lots of them, but some of them reek of lack of attention to detail. I don't like the Overmind retcon most of all, but that aside the entire mission where Tassadar comes back is important enough to have been a cinematic. But as Freespace told me, I guess it was more important to have Raynor share a beer with Tychus. Tassadar doesn't even get his own portrait for that important scene. The fly that Tychus squashed with his cigarette had 100x more work put into it than Tassadar's recycled Archon portrait.
Agreed fully that the Zeratul missions were badly handled. I think Blizzard felt they had to throw in some foreshadowing for the upcoming overarcing plot, but they did it badly. The secret mission and a couple more hints in the normal missions would have sufficed for such.Quote:
And what exactly is the prophecy Zeratul was gathering for example? After he gets to the final shrine he says it "speaks of one who shall break the cycle of the gods". But apparently this isn't the real prophecy and needs to be translated again by 3 preservers. Kerrigan apparently already knows the prophecy and tells Zeratul:
So Zeratul already knows his race will be destroyed? Then why does he act so surprised when Tassadar tells him, and what's the point of this mission anyway?
[/quote]Also, Stetman. How does he discover things that the Dominion seemingly doesn't have? Especially when Hanson calls the Hyperion's science expertise "non-existant". If you read any of the bios of Hyperion's crews, such as Stetman & Katchinsky, they're all apparently prodigies & geniuses.[/QUOTE]
Well, if you want to let it go with such, depending on difficulty the Dominion does have these things - shrike turrets and tech reactors are pretty common, the Hercules wasn't created with Stettman's research, just enhanced, and some of the other things like microfiltering we can't tell if the Dominion has or not. As well the research stuff that is in the multiplayer, like the raven and planetary fortress, the Dominion has it.
The delivery and proper context are important factors in determining cheesiness.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake Clawfang
Those lines are cheesy only when isolated as you've written them. Also, they're not obvious one-liners - they're said as part of a conversation. For example, that line from Aldaris (Who is this human, Tassadar?") is not cheesy at all. The venom that Paul Eiding infuses into that single line speaks volumes about the sort of character Aldaris is (a xenophobe with a superiority complex stuck up his ass). Aldaris didn't say that line for laffs or to sound cool, this line was a way for him to express his disdain for a lesser being interjecting on matters way beyond him, let alone even his business.
The cheesiness of the lines in WoL are due largely in the context in which they are presented, too. I think the reason why people find WoL's lines to be more cheesy is because the whole setup for the WoL scenario (and SC2 in general) is obviously "overblown" and "trying too hard to be epic". When you intersperse that with obvious comedic (whether good or bad) elements such as the news reports, you get a more uneven context with which you see those lines.
Agreed entirely. The line "look at that thing", out of context sounds stupid, but TBH I don't recall the context in the game. I doubt it's as stupid as it sounds now though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Turalyon
As well, since it was mentioned somewhere to suggest improvements and not just complain, to better capture the feel that we're a ragtag band of rebels, have a much lower unit cap, say 50. This encourages the player to use their supply wisely and use their forces better. But, certain missions raise that cap. Rescue Tosh's buddies from prison? Well you just got +25 to the cap. Help the Agria colonists? While they stick around you get +25.
This could also factor into the branching missions - help Tosh and get a higher unit cap, but help Nova and she gives you some sorta secret spec ops tech or whatever, that trains units faster and/or for less money. Mercenaries, since they're hired guns and not part of Raynor's crew, cost no supply to hire. Also, purchasing a merc contract would be more expensive in credits, but would raise the unit cap a little bit. Hire the War Pigs and in addition to calling down squads of 4 in the mission, the unit cap raises by 10.
The context of that line is when you successfully destroy those towers on that Zerg infested platform in Shatter the Sky.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake Clawfang
I'm not sure whether it is cheesy or not, but it is certainly inane. Does it really need to be said? I mean, of course I'm looking at that 'thing', I just destroyed it!
I think a large percentage of the dialogue in WoL that people deem as 'cheesy' is because those lines are not really necessary at all. Think about it, what does Raynor saying "Let's kick this revolution into overdrive!" really contribute to the story or to his character? Nothing at all. It is readily apparent that he's going to "kick the revolution into overdrive" as that cinematic plays out without him having to actually state it.
"You dare threaten a Cerebrate? You will be the doom of us all!"
I have this line in my signature because of reason. The reason to show how forgettable are all the characters in SC2. Kerrigan betrayed them all more than once and killed many of their friends and countless numbers of innocents and still they are willing to play like she wants them to do. Zasz was absolutely right in what he said to Kerrigan, she destroyed them all, all the cerebrates are dead because of Kerrigan, Overmind is dead because of Kerrigan and in my eyes the attraction of the whole zerg race is almost destroyed because of Kerrigan. And the cornerstone of the story in Wings of Liberty is to save Kerrigan, how great, I am happy like a baby, there is still too few people she deceived and I am looking forward to Heart of the Swarm where she'll add more. But in fact I am little bored with the same story round and round, there is too much Kerrigan for me, everything is about Kerrigan, in SC1 she was great, one of the best villains in history, but now she starts to be little annoying, especially with that very poor performance she showed in WoL. She was only able to repeat: "Ah Raynor, I didn't kill you already? And Zeratul you are still alive? I must correct that mistake." But everything she is able to do is nothing and she looks like a fool, similarly to Tal'darim Protoss and their speeches with Raynor:
Tal'darim: "Raynor, you want to steal our artifacts, again, you are evil!"
Raynor: "I don't care."
That's silly, as well as Kate Lockwell daily joking about government in totality controlled media and then even getting the job of main newswoman...
There's many more of that, I don't think the story was absolutely horrible, but I was disappointed that it was much more on the joke side than SC1. And I think while many of the jokes were intended (too many), many of them were unintended.
Wrong, but continue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Romla
Yes they were. Doesn't change the fact that line, while truthful, is incredibly dumb and cheesy. Especially because it was out of left field and total overreaction from Zasz. "oh my GOD, she threatened me? She'll get us all killed!"Quote:
Kerrigan betrayed them all more than once and killed many of their friends and countless numbers of innocents and still they are willing to play like she wants them to do. Zasz was absolutely right in what he said to Kerrigan, she destroyed them all, all the cerebrates are dead because of Kerrigan, Overmind is dead because of Kerrigan and in my eyes the attraction of the whole zerg race is almost destroyed because of Kerrigan.
Yeah, being the leader of the main antagonists of the series, so far anyway, will do that. Silly thing to complain about, like complaining that SC1 everything was about the Overmind.Quote:
And the cornerstone of the story in Wings of Liberty is to save Kerrigan, how great, I am happy like a baby, there is still too few people she deceived and I am looking forward to Heart of the Swarm where she'll add more. But in fact I am little bored with the same story round and round, there is too much Kerrigan for me, everything is about Kerrigan
Agreed that the villain banter was tiresome. They could have thrown in a mission where Kerrigan actually tries to make good on that and attacks Raynor unprovoked.Quote:
in SC1 she was great, one of the best villains in history, but now she starts to be little annoying, especially with that very poor performance she showed in WoL. She was only able to repeat: "Ah Raynor, I didn't kill you already? And Zeratul you are still alive? I must correct that mistake." But everything she is able to do is nothing and she looks like a fool, similarly to Tal'darim Protoss and their speeches with Raynor:
Tal'darim: "Raynor, you want to steal our artifacts, again, you are evil!"
Raynor: "I don't care."
It was hardly "more" on the joking side. The newscasts were obviously intended as comic relief and are optional, if you don't care for them fine, but they are not an integral part of the story. It's not like Jar-Jar Binks, if you find them annoying and out of place its a simple matter to just ignore them and not watch them.Quote:
There's many more of that, I don't think the story was absolutely horrible, but I was disappointed that it was much more on the joke side than SC1. And I think while many of the jokes were intended (too many), many of them were unintended.
Personally though I liked seeing how the media always spun Raynor's actions to make him look like a terrorist, it was funny to see them stretch the truth. But then I watch Jon Stewart so I'm used to that sort of thing being mocked :p.
I liked overthinkingit.com's critique. Even though their lore knowledge is wrong at times, it's still on spot: http://www.overthinkingit.com/2011/0...starcraft-2/2/
Here is the base of the StarCraft story:Here is the base of the StarCraft 2 story:Hidden Content:
Hidden Content:
Well just from what you've quoted Gradius, he makes the mistake everyone else is seeming to - expecting and assuming WoL will reveal everything when we all knew going in there were going to be plot holes and other unexplained things for the second two games to pick up and and explore. He makes a big to-do about the Dark Voice and related characters and concepts not being explored or not appearing in the game. Duh, because they weren't central to to the plot of WoL, they are central to the overarcing plot of the entire game.
Again, its like playing just the Terran campaign in the first game and, without touching the Zerg and Protoss campaigns, complaining that the Zerg Protoss weren't very well explored and we didn't get a good feel for the characters. People are looking at the story of WoL as a stand-alone game, and it isn't meant to be, it's Part 1 of a trilogy, it is its own self-contained story but also has to build up a foundation for a greater story that the other two games will expand on.
People are being too critical of some aspects of the story not being fleshed out, when they have to realize the story isn't done yet.
In any case, methinks a rather substantial number of 'saving throws' will be necessary in the remaining 2 installments.
Of course, many plot elements revealed thus far in WOL could, in fairness be considered 'saving throws' done wrong.
I would say that just the Terran campaign in the first SC featured MUCH more tight and lucid storytelling than WoL, we actually witnessed a chain of momentous events, had the characters and their relationships evolve in a cohesive and believable arc and got a satisfying conclusion with "The Inauguration" cinematic (none of which can be said for WoL). And as for exploring the Zerg and Protoss, even without touching their respective campaigns we had the histories from the manual which provided an indepth look at both races, offering at least ten times the amount of story and information than we had in WoL (and it was all very cohesive and clear, without the need to fall back on Phantom Menaces and vague prophecies).Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake Clawfang
Just sayin'.
It's not about the plot holes or lack of explanation. It's the convoluted & borderline irrational basis for why the races are fighting. The reasons in SC were simple and were established on one planet. Yes, most of the info about the dark voice has more to do with the rest of the game, but it's not going to get any less convoluted with more expansions, and some of the things he mentioned still apply to WoL. It seems absurd to me that Selendis would fight Jim Raynor for example. There was literally no attempt at diplomacy in that mission. Why does Kerrigan want the artifacts? Why does Mengsk want the artifacts? Hell, why does Valerian even want the artifacts aside from his archaeology fetish from the DT Saga? It seems awfully convenient that he would know that all the artifact pieces make a zerg DNA destroyer once assembled. It's also convenient that Mengsk would know Tychus would somehow get close to Kerrigan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake Clawfang
We're just not given clear reasons for why the races are fighting. The worst is the Tal'Darim. The metatorial review of SC2 (my fav) is spot-on about the Tal'Darim:
It's sad really that they kept reusing "Generic Tal'Darim Executor #183431" every mission instead of a real character. We don't even know what the Executor's name was. It was a waste of filler missions.Quote:
To Metzen's credit, writing a plot for a real-time strategy game is difficult. It's essential, for the sake of mission variety, that every faction wind up fighting every other faction in the game at some point, and coming up with a plausible reason to pit the Terrans against the alien Protoss - with whom they allied themselves to save the universe four years prior - would be difficult, to say the least. The effort made, however, is beyond pathetic. For instance: in his quest to acquire resources and Xel'Naga artifacts, Raynor spends several missions butting heads with a Protoss faction known as the Tal'darim, who are cutely described as "fanatics" but commit no obvious crime aside from refusing to roll over and die when Raynor comes to scour their worlds (by force!) of their rightly-owned valuables. The Tal'darim are dressed up in scary religious language - "You shall not defile the Breath of Creation! Execute all those who would desecrate our altars!" - but it's hard not to see Raynor as the villain here, especially considering that he's knowingly making a grab at a resource the Tal'darim consider religiously significant.The cultural insensitivity and abject stupidity reach their heights in the mission "Supernova" - an implausibly-constructed scenario in which Raynor must plunder a valuable artifact from the Tal'darim before the planet is engulfed by a slowly-moving wall of flame - where the following dialogue is uttered:
Tal'darim Executor: "Now you will pay for desecrating our holy relics!"
Raynor: "Aw, hell. Not these Tal'darim guys again. They seriously need to learn when to quit!"
A rough translation would be as follows:
Tal'darim Executor: "Stop robbing us of the objects of our faith at gunpoint!"Raynor: "Gee whiz, these Tal'darim are just so unreasonable!"
I agree. However, WoL is its own story. Just like SC vanilla was its own story with the 3 campaigns. Blizzard made the decision to structure the story into 3 separate pieces, so people shouldn't have to wait to play every campaign before deciding "hey, it looks like the storyline isn't monkey hurlage after all!"Quote:
People are being too critical of some aspects of the story not being fleshed out, when they have to realize the story isn't done yet.
Yes there was. Selendis told Raynor they detected the colonists were infested and they had to be wiped out, standard procedure for the Protoss. Raynor refuses to let them do this and tries to protect them, which Selendis doesn't stand for. My issue with the mission isn't the negotiations, its Selendis' response when Raynor blows up the Purifier is "okay okay yeesh, we're going". As TV Tropes puts it, if the theory that Selendis is the Ep 4 Executor is true, her Honor Before Reason way of doing things explains a lot of the idiocies of the Protoss in Brood War.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gradius
She knows what they can do.Quote:
Why does Kerrigan want the artifacts?
Fair point.Quote:
Why does Mengsk want the artifacts?
Unless the Narud-Duran thing turns out to be something substantial. The Moebius boys clearly are getting tips from a higher power, and as Valerian owns them...Quote:
Hell, why does Valerian even want the artifacts aside from his archaeology fetish from the DT Saga? It seems awfully convenient that he would know that all the artifact pieces make a zerg DNA destroyer once assembled.
That's been discussed back and forth so I won't touch it, its pretty hard to argue that twist wasn't badly executed.Quote:
It's also convenient that Mengsk would know Tychus would somehow get close to Kerrigan.
Fair point. Though you could argue that thanks to the DT Saga we know the Tal'darim are working for Ulrezaj (or rather are going on orders from him from before he got locked up), and even if they aren't by this point we know they're still bad news. We know that in the Overmind's vision, somehow Kerrigan was killed and with her gone the Dark Voice reigns. Ulrezaj, presumably working for the Dark Voice, sends out the Tal'darim to find and protect the artifacts to make sure that any attempt to save Kerrigan's life and alter the foreseen future doesn't happen.Quote:
We're just not given clear reasons for why the races are fighting. The worst is the Tal'Darim. The metatorial review of SC2 (my fav) is spot-on about the Tal'Darim:
It's sad really that they kept reusing "Generic Tal'Darim Executor #183431" every mission instead of a real character. We don't even know what the Executor's name was. It was a waste of filler missions.
As for the Executor's name, they named him in data files somewhere I believe, "Nyon" or something. Why they didn't use it in the missions, I'm not sure.
Agreed, but they need to realize that some of their complaints are insubstantial. Some genuine plot holes do exist, but the other two games may fill them in. On the other hand, complaining about the Dark Voice stuff when it is perfectly obvious that we aren't being given the full story yet is ignorant. It's a plot hole about why Mengsk wants the artifacts. It's set-up for the sequel about how Mengsk has his hand in the Hybrids.Quote:
Blizzard made the decision to structure the story into 3 separate pieces, so people shouldn't have to wait to play every campaign before deciding "hey, it looks like the storyline isn't monkey hurlage after all!"
EDIT - One problem
No, it was Raynor that allied with the Protoss. The Dominion and Protoss have always been enemies because Arcturus doesn't know any better.Quote:
coming up with a plausible reason to pit the Terrans against the alien Protoss - with whom they allied themselves to save the universe four years prior - would be difficult, to say the least.