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Idra's pushes seem to be pretty all-in, at least in MLG.Quote:
Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid
Yes something like this. Those are all good suggestions except longer blink cooldown which would remove the fun of stalkers. Earlier templar sounds good but would have to be carefully balanced.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake Clawfang
Problem of strengthening 4gate pushes though by buffing stalkers. Might break the game.:p At this point not much need to combine buildings for HT and DT. It would be nice but not completely necessary. There becomes a problem of opponents scouting the building and not knowing which route was chosen.
I believe Losira used that build (roach/ling heavy pressure off 2 base) to open with against MC game 2 on Metalopolis Loser Bracket Finals at MLG. It's a safe pressure for zerg as behind it a third is taken and precautionary evolution chamber which gets started on upgrades.
The early templar idea gave me an amazing idea;Quote:
Originally Posted by Gradius
A race/faction/side that has a base building that builds most of its units; However, they are weak at first. When you build the "tank structure", the "tank" gets buffed stats, and some upgrades are available for it at that structure, to make it stronger and more specialized. And perhaps if you use one of these specializations, the others are no longer available. This could've worked so well for Zerg, were we not limited to making already existing races for WoL like the original ones.
if they removed the archon and replaced it with a new archon, i think the issues of the old would travel over to the new.
to what was considered towards zealots. blizz tried the zealot-dark templar thing in the alpha, i guess they didn't like it. the dark pylon could make stuff cloaked thus was the possibility for a cloaked zealot rush but i guess they didn't want to remove the dark templar.
the idea of selecting a zealot and morphing him into his next religious step in multiplayer isn't breaking the lore rules. blizzard hasn't written those rules yet. i guess they might of considered a similar thing when they dreamed up the protoss adept.
That's nowhere near the same thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by mythology
New idea to reinvigorate the discussion - what niches/purpose, etc, would new units for each race need to cover? Zerg get a new unit, what role could it have?
Well, the obvious thing to do - much like with SC:BW and WC3:TFT - is to introduce new functions. Like WC3, I think anti-casters/spellbreakers would be useful (can anyone say Null Void?) while things like counterintelligence (misleading the opponent) could do with a little more expanding.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid
I usually agree with you, but that was the weakest and most structurally unsound argument I've ever heard or read in my life.
You listed a bunch of harassment options for Terran, that's fine.
But you never really specifically addressed the Banshee in that huge paragraph.
Plus, ALL of them (your alternatives) require HEAVY micro and do not work in reality. Transform Vikings is great for unguarded expansions but blink+Stalkers+the 2 second transform time = DEAD.
A dropship with just stim pack marines does better for harassment mid-late game. Ravens cost WAY too much gas to waste their precious energy on auto turrets, they're much better to abuse the point defense drones. Hellion drops are pretty sick (effective as hell too) and require the least gas..but there are times when banshees do perform better (islands, guarded areas, etc).
Sorry, but you never addressed the idea that Banshees are great for in-battle AtG DPS. With proper viking support+scan/Raven, you can knock out their vision and effectively have untouchable DPS. Also I find that many players unable to keep their cool on banshees, then waste 500$ ++ in detection from just a small banshee raid. That itself is a great window that many people do not give our poor Miss Banshee enough credit for.
Unlike the Reaper, the Banshee definitely has a great and solid role that is not easily replaceable by other units - which is a mobile aerial (cloakable) DPS role.
P.S.
Just a bit too much theory craft I think...not to mention..without her and the Medivac, the entire Terran Army is a massive sausage fest.
I want a female ghost model option. They already made the artwork for it.
^Pretty much this.
Perhaps you should take another look at my posts. From your post, it looks to me like you contradict yourself and actually agree with what I said about the Banshee. How so? Lets take a look.Quote:
Originally Posted by hyde
In that post, I did not directly mention that obviously, the Banshee is the best GtA option Terrans have. It was brought up in an entirely separate post, #59 here:Quote:
Originally Posted by hyde
I completely acknowledge that no other Terran unit is as good as the Banshee at AtG. But again, that was never the point of my argument. The point was its the least versatile, and that is strongest attribute was Cloak. A point which you clearly agree on based on this paragraph:Quote:
Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid
I neglected to say "great in-battle-AtG-DPS," but I felt that was clear that was due to it having Cloak. Cloak is an enormous part of the units power, and I never said otherwise. What I said was that cloak could be transferred to another unit if the Banshee was scrapped, and give the same kind of power to that new unit.Quote:
Originally Posted by hyde
The point I was ultimately making was not about the DPS potential of the Banshee versus the other AtG methods. It was about the versatility of the Banshee compared to the others. I'm sorry that was not clear to you.
I agree that more female representation is nice, but it shouldn't get in the way of game-play, it should add to it. Having a lackluster female unit is not preferable to having a solid, usable male unit.Quote:
Originally Posted by hyde
Demo, the way you talk about overlap you'd think it was a bad thing. With the zerg I can understand, given their centralized production and generally linear tech progression. But with the Terrans, a certain degree of overlap is not only to be expected, but neccessary.
Please go read post #59 again.Quote:
Originally Posted by phazonjunkie
Sorry, I did not read the entire thread - only that one post.Quote:
Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid
Well if you're arguing on versatility, I think the Banshee has decent versatility for a StarCraft 2 unit (sufficient enough). Mobile air Tactical raider and Air to Ground DPS. Terran has marines,battlecruisers, and thors - those units are sooo versatile.
I think it's good the banshee has low versatility (better than Reaper though).
Each race has a few specialized units and the banshee is fine. I don't see it being replaced unless a heavy tier3 Terran Air Bomber (that can bomb while moving) is added.
:)
My wish list for HOTS:
1) Brood War Goliaths. Screw thors, WAY too slow and cumbersome.
2) Marine Drop pods (it was scrapped)
3) Tier3 upgrade to Ghost snipe to affect more targets (it currently cannot be used on PROBES..)
4) Female Ghost models mixed in (like how they have 50/50 Dark Templar models)
5) A cloaked ground mecha unit
6) Firebat
7) The Mercenary compound added back
8) Revamped Reaper or Tier3 reaper upgrades (give them spidermines or something?)
Note: I'm not entirely serious with the list and a bit of nostalgia is at play :)
To clarify: I know the Banshee will most likely remain. Blizzard probably won't remove it, especially after multiple chances to in development. I suggested several other options Blizzard could go for, for example a MedEvac upgrade into the SC:Ghost Grizzly. My suggestions and logic fell on deaf ears. So now, I'm only saying the Banshee is one of two Terran units I would remove if I was in charge, and I've explained my reasons why.
I just saw the hangover 2 movie and Dustin Browder looks like alan (bald).
First of all, you can drop the act. The 'let's have a calm, intelligent & productive discussion regarding this issue' doesn't suit you at all. Where's the biting sarcasm & snide remarks that are characteristic of the Demo we all know?:p:DQuote:
Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid
2nd, while I agree with you regarding the reaper in that hardly anyone would bat an eye if it was removed (I believe It, for all intense and purposes, is a failed unit. much like the Mothershit) I still would still disagree with you regarding the banshee. While you may be right in that it's removal would probably have the least consequences regarding the Terran air balance, there would still be consequences nonetheless.
While removing the banshee would not break balance regarding Terran AtG, IMO, it would still leave enough of an impact to where significant rebalancing/reshuffling would have to occur. Vikings, as they are now, would simply not be capable of picking up the slack, as their anti ground dps is only marginally better than the goliaths (which weren't very good in terms of ground attack anyway). You'd have to significantly buff their GtG in in some way, either that or significantly reduce their transforming time to the point where it's negligable; this made more so because in it's ground mode, it effectively becomes an entirely different unit, and substantially more vulnerable. And even then, you'd run the risk of the Viking stepping on the toes of other anti ground specialists like the marauder.
Regarding the Raven, while the dps of it's auto-turrets is respectable, making it capable of fulfilling an anti-ground/harass role in a pinch, like Hyde said, it's simply not cost effective to use them simply for that purpose.
Drops, I don't personally consider to be legitimate AtG, at least in the common sense of the term, so medivacs are a moot point.
*Oh, and as regards cloaking....I really don't see any other air unit you could give it to and have it still be balanced.
Viking: The fact that it can't cloak is one of the reasons it's so much better than the wraith in everything it does. It HAS to be. If you gave the viking cloak, something else would have to be nerfed for the sake of balance. Either it would have to be more expensive, no longer double-pumpable, or it's AtA range would have to be reduced. In any case what you'd be left with is, for all intents and purposes, a wraith.....with a cool transforming animation & a slightly stronger ground attack.
Medivac: I haven't even gone into potential consequences of giving a transport cloak and heal and I can still practically hear Protoss & Zerg fanboys crying foul....
Raven: While it would be unbelievably cool, and would certainly fit thematically, a highly versatile aerial caster that can cloak AND detect would be a bit much, from any angle.
Battlecruiser: You really want me to go there?
Wings of Liberty has been out for nearly a year. Thor =/= goliath.Quote:
Originally Posted by hyde
@ phazonjunkie
1. There is no act. Sometimes I make jokes, and sometimes I get angry and start to swear. But I have frequently shown I am capable of well thought out arguments.
2. I never said give cloak to the Viking, Dropship, Raven, or BC. I simply said cloak could be given to another air unit, old or new, and would need to obviously be balanced for.
Indeed. I hate the Thor = Goliath comparison, its flat out wrong. The Viking is far more akin to the Goliath than the Thor is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimera757
Well anyways, to shift gears for a second (or get back on topic). I wouldn't mind seeing the ghost go in order to make way for the specter. I always liked that unit & wondered how it'd work out in multiplayer.
Not that I dislike the ghost by any means, but there obviously wouldn't be enough room for both of them...maybe you could have your ghost become specters. It would be a deliberate one time choice that would effect all current ghosts and once implemented, you'd only have access to specters from then on, an it would be irreversible, so you'd really have to think hard on which would suit your overall game plan.
Specters could be balanced more or less how they were in WoL singleplayer, with the added restriction that you'd no longer be able to calldown nukes.
Yes I know. Thor does not equal goliath. But it replaces goliath.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimera757
I want goliath back. Thors are just the result of over zealous production values set by Christ Metzen and friends. What other unit used to take 1/4 the screen size with giant bazooka cannons that required it to be built on the battlefield + have unique models + revamped until it was "Forced" to work.
It's still not balanced.
No, it doesn't. Last time I checked, the goliath was better at GtA than GtG. The thor is the opposite. It also has powerful anti-ground abilities which can stun opponents.Quote:
Originally Posted by hyde
You might not like the thor, but you shouldn't make up stuff about it.
this does not support the removal of ghost, but it's clear that blizzard has an obsession with the spectre.Quote:
Originally Posted by phazonjunkie
it was just a story idea for a ceased game, an elite enemy to fight the player. because of wings of liberty, the spectre is now a unit with his own abilities. from the looks of the heart of the swarm trailer, the spectre is coming back yet again. yes those are spectres with nova, not normal ghosts.
just saying the unit you like seems to have a strong possibility with the game and pointing out how blizzard fooling around with it continuously.
if there was a starcraft multiplayer shooter comming out tomorrow, bets would be there would be a spectre in it.
what you say here is what makes me want to reply. you've made me remember what another game did that's just like you said.Quote:
Not that I dislike the ghost by any means, but there obviously wouldn't be enough room for both of them...maybe you could have your ghost become specters. It would be a deliberate one time choice that would effect all current ghosts and once implemented, you'd only have access to specters from then on, an it would be irreversible, so you'd really have to think hard on which would suit your overall game plan.
Specters could be balanced more or less how they were in WoL singleplayer, with the added restriction that you'd no longer be able to calldown nukes.
in warhammer 40k dawn of war 1, the tau race tech tree had this option where you could choose to tech hammerhead gunships or krootox. once you've chosen it was irreversible i think.
this adds to the discussion of possibilities.
edit:
towards the goliath talk. isn't the difference between the goliath and the thor is that the goliath was basically a mobile turret and it didn't really dominate air until it got it's broodwar upgrade? while the thor is a new and different unit not based upon the goliath's concepts? of course you could say the same about dragoons being mobile photon cannons.
I have to agree, the Thor, along with a lot of other units, seemed to be constantly tweaked and retweaked to work. Ya know guys, if the unit concept just isn't working, maybe it isn't that you need to balance it, maybe it's because it just doesn't work. Is the Thor of today really even the same unit as the Thor we saw in the original Terran demo vid?Quote:
Originally Posted by hyde
of course there is the unit concept where they don't care if it works. "it's cool so lets put it in there!" approach. worry about balance later.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake Clawfang
you gotta make pretty units. the reaper is ugly to me.
to add to the topic would you consider blizzard is willing to remove buildings as well as units? replacing buildings with new buildings that do new cool stuff.
for example. i love radar but it's not really necessary or needed. i get it just for the fun of having it but i can live without it.
photon cannons. in sc1 they were fun to cheese with, it's not so fun in sc2 anymore. if you could replace cannons with something else or add something to them to make them as advanced as bunkers and colonies, what would ya think up? what if they replaced them with dark templar cannons? maybe they could cloak later on in the game.
can't think of anything to talk about for zerg. nothing to remove. maybe add. can't think of anything atm.
Photon Cannons strike me as uncreative compared to other defenses. Zerg can uproot and move their defenses around, Terrans can salvage bunkers to the same effect. I recall Photon Cannons were once "phase cannons" that could move like the Zerg colonies, a bit too similar but they need more than just being turrets.
Phase cannons existed first. They could turn into a vulnerable energy-ball state and move to replant anywhere in pylon power. This mobility was simultaneously removed from the Cannon and given to the Spine and Spore Crawler because, and I quote," it felt more Zergy as an ability."Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake Clawfang
I wouldn't mind if the Photon cannon got an upgrade to attack speed (whether it be a balance and therefore constant change or an upgrade) to keep it viable later in the game. The bunker of course can be loaded with different units and salvaged, spore and spine crawlers can move, but also be healed rapidly with Queen back up, which leads me to feel the Protoss may have gotten the short end of the bargain with base defenses (but it can is GtA and GtG while being a detector...). However; I believe that the cannon would benefit enormously with an attack speed upgrade to help keep up with the threat presented by late game pressure. Of course, it would not need to be a large increase, but enough to keep it effective against more than just tier one units.
You already have the goliath back. It just goes by a different name, is much more mobile, and produced from a different building.:DQuote:
Originally Posted by hyde
The Thor doesn't 'replace' anything. It fulfills a role that the terrans sorely lacked in BW.
I don't like it/don't find it interesting to use ≠ unbalanced. I personally don't particularly care for siege tanks. I feel they were far too much of a 'crutch' unit in BW, and to an extent have become such in SC2. But I wouldn't go so far as to say they're not balanced.Quote:
It's still not balanced.
Would an ability to double the combat and out-of-combat shield regeneration of photon cannons be imbalanced?Quote:
Originally Posted by almostfamous
There's no such thing as "combat regeneration" of shields :)
IMO, it would not unbalance base defenses to give them the same upgrades as units. (So if photon cannons got Ground Weapons and spine crawlers got Melee Attacks it would still be balanced.)
I simply think Phase Cannons should come back. I don't feel they'd infringe on Spine Crawlers if the movement mechanic was different enough.
How could blizz make it any more different? I'm not the most creative person, but I can't think of how one could make the photon cannon not step on the spine crawler's dick by enabling movement. I mean, the bunker can be salvaged and loaded with different units, the spine crawler can move and plant on creep and does extra damage to armored units, the photon cannon can hit all units and detect. I believe that an upgrade to the attack speed (maybe even a large upgrade at tier 3?) would make it different and more effective.Quote:
Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid
Wait, I've got the creative juices flowing, what about having the photon cannon also speed regen of the shields of nearby units/structures? Or it could be a directed regen akin to the shield generator in SC1? So it could be more than just a useful base defense, but be a beacon of hope during a siege. Naturally anything like that would have to be an upgrade, having cannons do that from the start would be absurd.
The original plan of making the cannon become a vulnerable, low hp floating orb would be fine. It could also create and traverse a wormhole over a several seconds, perhaps created by the Pylon creating the psi field, like the Motherships "recall."Quote:
Originally Posted by almostfamous
Actually as gimmicky Radar is..it's freaking awesome in both competitive 1's and team games.Quote:
Originally Posted by mythology
I love it as a T player, it forces where I want the enemy to go. I don't mind early "notice" either, especially with Mecha builds...it takes years to move your thors around...
I think it's fine and it serves its purpose to help augment Terran's slow-ass moving mecha army.
Zerg have their nydus and protoss have warp in..I suppose our counter part is radar? Haha.
eh, I like it, but it still feels to me like it would be a bit much like spine crawler's rooting abilities. plus, it would be a bit absurd to be able to build cannons at your base and essentially warp them into the front line pylon.Quote:
Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid
Well, again, they'd be extremely vulnerable while moving - maybe 40 HP - and the transfer would take up to 10 seconds.Quote:
Originally Posted by almostfamous
Come on guys. Surely you can come up with something better then these ideas for the photon cannon. I mean you're just reusing the same idea. How about making the photon cannon like the prism towers from cnc red alert 2? Where photon cannons not in range can send their blasts along a network of photon cannons to make the photon cannons on the front line that much more powerful.
I vote that the graphics for photon cannons are reworked to look like my avatar.
ROFL +1 and +repQuote:
Originally Posted by Gradius
Photons Cannons shall now go by the nickname "Pac-Man."