Thor Transportation [Opinions and Suggestions]

This whole argument is exactly why the size of the Thor is just stupid.

They should have never said that it couldn't be transported. The Colossus can, the Ultralisk can, Siege Tanks can, but everybody is throwing a big hissy fit about the Thor. Of course it should be transportable, and no, it shouldn't be by the Monty Python, "Swallow carrying a coconut" method.

Size has no real relevance in this game. Battlecruisers and Carriers are as big as a few infantry units, and can even be killed by a fairly small number. Do you think that would be the case if this were anything remotely close to reality?

Let's just let the Medivac carry the Thor and move on =|

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Size has no real relevance in this game. Battlecruisers and Carriers are as big as a few infantry units, and can even be killed by a fairly small number. Do you think that would be the case if this were anything remotely close to reality?

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People using battlecruisers and carriers for size in a debate about realism are just wrong. Battlecruisers are obviously huge, but they don't contradict anything.

Unlike the Thor, "Oh yeah these babies can be transported in dropships" which is a direct contradiction to how the actual universe works because Thors are like 5x the size of a dropship. Fitting "2 siege tanks" is a whole different story. First of all, no one here seems to take account that the shapes are completely different, you think a Thor is just going to lie flat on its stomach and go into a dropship or something? Ridiculous.

As for people who couldn't care less about the realism, they really should just stay out of the conversation because they have nothing to contribute except for bringing up other points like "a battlecruiser is as big as 5 marines so why shouldn't a Thor be able to fit into a dropship? It's smaller than a battlecruiser!!!111"

How about the Thor has to compact itself before it can be transported. Before you can fit it into a medivac, you have to spend some time converting it into a lifeless hunk of steal, like the former dead mode of the Thor, and THEN you can carry it around.
Upon dropping it in the desired location, you have to spend a little more time having it go into it's normal form before it can move and attack.

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Originally Posted by Rizhall

How about the Thor has to compact itself before it can be transported. Before you can fit it into a medivac, you have to spend some time converting it into a lifeless hunk of steal, like the former dead mode of the Thor, and THEN you can carry it around.
Upon dropping it in the desired location, you have to spend a little more time having it go into it's normal form before it can move and attack.

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I basically said the same thing early into this thread :p

Those are far fetched mechanics though. Although it makes more sense lore wise, it'd probably be bad for gameplay.

Even though it's a problem in the lore, for the sake of gameplay if everyone wants to have a transportable Thor then I'd be fine with it being transportable through the dropship.

I don't know what the big deal is though with everyone crying foul about why the Thor can't be transported. Big deal? A unit can't be transported and everyone acts like it's the end of SC as we know it because they changed a little rule and everyone goes on to negatively theorycraft the hell out of why "non-transportable thors = bad!"

We never see island maps in any matches anyway, so island maps aren't even a large issue on this.

I don't see why no one is complaining that the Ultralisk can't burrow in SC1 and now every Zerg unit can.

Guys, either you forgive the fact that a Thor shouldn't be in a dropship and move on or you don't accept it and don't think it should be in a dropship. There's really no way a Thor can realistically fit in a dropship unless they increase its size for this sole purpose so let's stop ignoring how big the Thor really is and move on.

@Rizhall: Implementing that would be useless. The Thor already isn't made to be a replacement for the Tank or Battlecruiser. It's damn anti-air unit. So, this would just make it less useful. If you're going to drop a Thor, you might as well drop a few tanks with a Battlecruiser.

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Originally Posted by TychusFindlay

Guys, either you forgive the fact that a Thor shouldn't be in a dropship and move on or you don't accept it and don't think it should be in a dropship. There's really no way a Thor can realistically fit in a dropship unless they increase its size for this sole purpose so let's stop ignoring how big the Thor really is and move on.

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Guys, either you accept the fact that a Thor should be in a MedEvac and move on, or you're wrong. There's really a very logical way a Thor can realistically fit in a MedEvac by decreasing its size for this sole purpose, so let's stop ignoring how the lore isn't set yet and move on.

... which is exactly what I've been saying this entire topic ...

I hope you only quoted my post because of similar delivery lines and not because you were countering it.

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Originally Posted by TychusFindlay

... which is exactly what I've been saying this entire topic ...

I hope you only quoted my post because of similar delivery lines and not because you were countering it.

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I was simplifying it.

Thors SHOULD be transportable by MedEvac.

/thread.

I'd say so. People need to realize that, with the way the lore is, a Thor cannot be transported at all without forgiving a few things so we need to stop wasting time by explaining certain obvious truths away. But, again, I wouldn't be opposed to them making the Medivacs bigger (Although it might make it so that it has to be able to carry more units) or the Thor smaller.

I'd rather the Thor stay monstrously huge, though, because I think it's bad ass ... but I don't want to hinder the gameplay.

That being said, if we're going to alter so much of the game to be able to drop the Thor then we're going to need to make the Thor a unit that makes you want to drop it.

An anti-air unit isn't really something you're going to want to work so hard to drop ...

I'm still waiting for them to try having the Medevac lug the Thor around with attached cables, one for one. Not only does it circumvent all issues brought up, it'd also be ridiculously scary to see.

My preferred alternative, if that can't happen (although why not?), is to let the Thor fly around on his own very slowly, being completely vulnerable. With slow lift off and landing sequences so he'd have to be protected.

What Blizzard will probably do is just either allow him to take up all slots in Medevac and disappear inside (which is stretching suspension of disbelief pretty thin) or have him not transported at all (which is stupid/unfair).

Maybe we need to start talking about how they're going to make the Thor useful as a dropped unit.

Because, the way I see it, if it's going to take all the slots then you might as well send in two tanks, or whatever other combination of units, with a Battlecruiser or other strong anti-air air unit.

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Originally Posted by TychusFindlay

Maybe we need to start talking about how they're going to make the Thor useful as a dropped unit.

Because, the way I see it, if it's going to take all the slots then you might as well send in two tanks, or whatever other combination of units, with a Battlecruiser or other strong anti-air air unit.

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This isn't "to be useful." This is to not be useless. If the Thor can't be transported, he is that (at least in some situations). If he can be transported, then we can start worrying about whether or not that's good enough once we see it in action.

The Thor is not going to be an offensive-drop unit. The reason it needs transport is so that you can use it on battlefields you can only reach by air. In other words you're not going to be dropping Thors in an enemy expansion but you might drop them in your own expansion to defend it

That's true.

What about giving the Terrans a second transport mechanic? Akin to how the Zerg have Overlords and Nydus where as the Protoss have Warp Prisms and Warp-in.

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What about giving the Terrans a second transport mechanic? Akin to how the Zerg have Overlords and Nydus where as the Protoss have Warp Prisms and Warp-in.

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Well you could argue that floating your buildings somewhere else is their second way of transport. Don’t forget they fly faster now too.

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Originally Posted by mr. peasant

What about giving the Terrans a second transport mechanic? Akin to how the Zerg have Overlords and Nydus where as the Protoss have Warp Prisms and Warp-in.

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The fact that all their production buildings can move seems to void your issue.

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Originally Posted by mr. peasant

What about giving the Terrans a second transport mechanic? Akin to how the Zerg have Overlords and Nydus where as the Protoss have Warp Prisms and Warp-in.

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Honestly the guy who talked about the colossus being picked up while the thor can't be picked up pretty much wins this thread. It makes no sense, as the colossus is super huge too...

Shuttles aren't much different than dropships, and it just makes very little sense to not allow the dropship to pick up 1 single thor.

DS is right, only I dont believe the thor needs to be resized as much as they just need to add in the lore medivac dropships are much bigger than regular dropships.

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Originally Posted by Zabimaru

Well you could argue that floating your buildings somewhere else is their second way of transport. Don’t forget they fly faster now too.

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with that said maybe the thor could 'lift off' but unable to attack.. and moves the speed of buildings in SC:BW

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Originally Posted by Santrega

Honestly the guy who talked about the colossus being picked up while the thor can't be picked up pretty much wins this thread. It makes no sense, as the colossus is super huge too...

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But you could argue that when toss units are loaded onto their transport they are converted into energy then re-formed once they are unloaded

But, then it's basically a sitting duck unless you're protecting it with anti-air which is really more trouble than it's worth for an anti-air ground unit.

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Originally Posted by mr. peasant

What about giving the Terrans a second transport mechanic? Akin to how the Zerg have Overlords and Nydus where as the Protoss have Warp Prisms and Warp-in.

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The most likely candidate for this job is Drop Pods. Last time Blizz tried them, it turned out to be a little too complicated for their tastes, but that was back when it was a Ghost ability.

Maybe something more straight-forward could work. For example,

1. Upgrade to Planetary Fortress
2. Load up to four units' worth of size (by Dropship standard) into PF (or one Thor)
3. Launch Drop Pod button appears; you select any area within vision (say, 60 second cooldown)
4. Over 10 seconds, Drop Pod launches... as it is dropping over 5 seconds or so, it is a non-controllable unit with 200 HP that can be destroyed
5. ???
6. Profit.

In one fell swoop you get a little bit of macro, you get a little bit of value added onto the Planetary Fortress that the Surveillance Station (or whatever) can't provide, and you get to transport Thors and do all sorts of funky new tricks.

Thoughts?

There's always the option of creating a new, second transport unit that can specifically support larger units and more of them (transports Siege Tanks and Thors, etc), and you specifically change the Terran transport system to have all infantry units transported by the Medivac, and all large, mechanical units transported by this other heavy transport.

It could have more health, armor, anti-air defenses (that whole defensive drone thing?), etc.

I'm not enormously in support of this idea, but it might be interesting to have Terrans use two separate transports, and also allows for more realism/acceptance of the Thor and Siege Tanks being transported.

or how bout just make the thor model smaller

ooor just let it load into the transport and have a big 'fuck you' to realism
its starcraft. gameplay is more important than lore anyday

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Originally Posted by ManjiSanji

There's always the option of creating a new, second transport unit that can specifically support larger units and more of them (transports Siege Tanks and Thors, etc), and you specifically change the Terran transport system to have all infantry units transported by the Medivac, and all large, mechanical units transported by this other heavy transport.

It could have more health, armor, anti-air defenses (that whole defensive drone thing?), etc.

I'm not enormously in support of this idea, but it might be interesting to have Terrans use two separate transports, and also allows for more realism/acceptance of the Thor and Siege Tanks being transported.

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You should make a new thread specifically about this.. I wouldn't mind a little discussion about cargo size upgrades for dropships/shuttles/overlords etc.

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Originally Posted by Santrega

Honestly the guy who talked about the colossus being picked up while the thor can't be picked up pretty much wins this thread. It makes no sense, as the colossus is super huge too...

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Actually, s/he doesn't. According to the Prism's lore, it converts those it is transporting into energy in order to carry them. So, the unit's volume doesn't matter.

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Originally Posted by mr. peasant

Actually, s/he doesn't. According to the Prism's lore, it converts those it is transporting into energy in order to carry them. So, the unit's volume doesn't matter.

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oh crap, I forgot the prism was the new shuttle.. Jesus.. I'm having a hard time keeping up with sc2 nowadays...

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Originally Posted by mr. peasant

Actually, s/he doesn't. According to the Prism's lore, it converts those it is transporting into energy in order to carry them. So, the unit's volume doesn't matter.

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Indeed. Only the memory it takes up.

Oh wait... wouldn't a bigger unit take up more memory?

:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid

Indeed. Only the memory it takes up.

Oh wait... wouldn't a bigger unit take up more memory?

:rolleyes:

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You're right. That's a huge problem.

Oh wait... doesn't the Colossus take up more room than a Zealot?

;)

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Originally Posted by pure.Wasted

You're right. That's a huge problem.

Oh wait... doesn't the Colossus take up more room than a Zealot?

;)

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That's what I said... Colossus takes up more memory because its a bigger unit.

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Originally Posted by pure.Wasted

You're right. That's a huge problem.

Oh wait... doesn't the Colossus take up more room than a Zealot?

;)

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Hmm, since there is clearly still a limit to the memory, if it can't have as many units as it wants inside of it... and a zealot is still going to take up very little space compared to a colossus...

It still doesn't make sense in terms of size as a zealot is not even close to even 1/16th of a colossus...

Maybe they have really good memory compression techniques they use for a colossus :-P

Edit - So why don't they compress the memory of all the units? I dont know :-(, maybe it should be an upgrade.. I'll make a thread...

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Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid

That's what I said... Colossus takes up more memory because its a bigger unit.

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Then you should have no bone to pick with mr. peasant's comment. He didn't say size does not matter; only pointed out that the comparison is not so straight-forward as visuals might indicate.

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Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid

That's what I said... Colossus takes up more memory because its a bigger unit.

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But the volume the Colossus occupies is no longer a limiting factor. Rather, it's the amount of energy/data the Colossus equals to and the storage capacity of the Warp Prism. And seeing as how a flash drive the size of your thumb can store 64 GB in today's technology, one can only imagine the storage power the Protoss has.

Humm... it does indeed appear I misread the conversation.

My apologies.

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Originally Posted by mr. peasant

But the volume the Colossus occupies is no longer a limiting factor. Rather, it's the amount of energy/data the Colossus equals to and the storage capacity of the Warp Prism. And seeing as how a flash drive the size of your thumb can store 64 GB in today's technology, one can only imagine the storage power the Protoss has.

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Well its still a size, just a different kind of size. Also, it doesn't matter how enormous their storage power is, the bigger it gets the more zealots you should be able to fit into the prism compared to a colossus. For example:

Say a Zealot is 1 MB, and it can only fit 4 Zealots into a prism. Thats a space limit of 4MB, but can you really believe a colossus takes up only 4 MB when a zealot takes up 1? Is a Zealot really 1/4th the size of a colossus?

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Originally Posted by Santrega

Say a Zealot is 1 MB, and it can only fit 4 Zealots into a prism. Thats a space limit of 4MB, but can you really believe a colossus takes up only 4 MB when a zealot takes up 1? Is a Zealot really 1/4th the size of a colossus?

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But that's the point, it's not about size. The space division is decided by factors we don't know/understand. For example, maybe it's ten times more difficult to translate a living, functional brain than it is a computer chip that only simulates brain activity.

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Originally Posted by Santrega

Well its still a size, just a different kind of size. Also, it doesn't matter how enormous their storage power is, the bigger it gets the more zealots you should be able to fit into the prism compared to a colossus. For example:

Say a Zealot is 1 MB, and it can only fit 4 Zealots into a prism. Thats a space limit of 4MB, but can you really believe a colossus takes up only 4 MB when a zealot takes up 1? Is a Zealot really 1/4th the size of a colossus?

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It depends on how much more complex a Colossus is compared to a Zealot. For instance, a human brain probably contains more data than a block of wood. Heck, I'm pretty sure this issue of yours is even worse with Medivacs, Overlords and the SC1 transports. Is a Marine 1/4th the size of a Siege Tank? I think it's safe to say all that is based more on balance and relative size.

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Originally Posted by mr. peasant

It depends on how much more complex a Colossus is compared to a Zealot. For instance, a human brain probably contains more data than a block of wood. Heck, I'm pretty sure this issue of yours is even worse with Medivacs, Overlords and the SC1 transports. Is a Marine 1/4th the size of a Siege Tank? I think it's safe to say all that is based more on balance and relative size.

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Well, I agree with you somewhat, but I think the comparison between a tank and a marine is a closer than a marine and a thor, or colossus and zealot. Considering 5 tanks probably don't equal a thor...

Also, if i'm not mistaken, don't even the mechanical units belonging to protoss have protoss soldiers in them? The lore states that the injured soldiers get placed in the mechanical units right? So the brain thing probably won't be a good way to go.

Edit - Apparently colossus is one of the units purely mechanical. I talked to a friend who is a big lore guy, he said that Reaver, Colossus, Phase prism, observer, and probe are fully mechanical, and only stalkers/immortals/dragoons have wounded soldiers put in them.

Could we solve it by giving the Prism a transport matrix capable of taking 12 spaces worth of, and then setting all massive units to that size? as for Thor transport, I'm all for the Thor moving like a building.