Printable View
It's really annoying being beaten by such a stupid strat and I find it annoying how they designed the zerg race to not have anti-air capability as a side effect of getting regular units (3 queens doesn't count)
Furthermore, it's incredibly hard to scout their base with overlords once they've blocked in.
So how do you handle this? Blindly put down spore crawlers now?
:( I was about to say get extra queens.
Why is it so hard to make 2-3 more Queens? Queen is so underused unit. I mean, it is only used as macro mechanic for Spawning Larvae and Creep Spreading and not as an usual unit, like Spanishiwa does use them. Queen is great anti-air, tank, healer and with more than 2-3 of them, you can spread Creep all over the map and get the map control in no time.
So if anything, you should make more Queens blindly, since if it isn't Banshee/Void Ray harassment, they still serve their purpose.
Well he doesn't want queens. Despite how they don't use larvae and can heal each other. Just get spore crawlers. If you have to do it blind then something is wrong. If terran takes his first gas before barracks then just gas steal. Then just do a blind gas steal versus protoss.
It'll at least delay them until you can get your hydras or whatever. You have to find the right time to scout before it's too late but also not before it's too early. But either way they can always proxy the starport/stargate.
Do the normal scout the front style. See what units he has. If it looks smaller than normal then just put a spore crawler in each mineral line.
And those strategies are not stupid. They're a way to put pressure on zerg. If it's not like a voidray/banshee all-in then if you just straight up die to it immediately it sadly means you're not dealing with them well. The whole purpose of those units is to force the zerg back into their base and use resources and larvae to defend from the air.
Yeah. Totally agree with you Ramiz. Don't see why zergs don't want extra queens. Doesn't cost them any larvae and most zergs float quite a bunch of minerals to use up the spurts of larvae from injects.Quote:
Originally Posted by RamiZ
Zergs should try go into a unit tester with like 1 ultra and 5-6 queens with full energy. Practise their transfuse micro and see just how long it takes for the ultra to die if you keep transfusing it. For a few months now us protoss players were worried about big queen numbers becoming more common in PvZ. We were already considering getting templar tech as a backup just in case we need feedback.
But not many zergs use them. Zergs keep complaining how their hive tech units die too quickly but refuse to use the unit Blizzard gave to them that can constantly heal those units.
EDIT: On a side note zergs don't use nydus worms enough. Like i always imagine nydus would be good on tal'darim altar for zerg to just expand as far from the protoss as possible while being able to instantly transfer their army there to defend it if necessary.
5 queens? Well the problem is 5 queens doesn't do much if he decides to push with lets say marines and hellions. I just couldn't see what he was going while he just blatantly scans me before proceeding to wipe me out.
The real problem with queens is off creep. I've tried a mass roach / queen army and it worked... okay. But you're very limited by creep and you can't be tactical. I wish they'd buff queen speed off creep a bit just so at least they feel more viable.
If you can't scout at all that he's going marines and hellions then that's a scouting problem. 5 queens plus spine crawlers should be able to hold off marine hellion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wankey
If they buffed queen speed off creep you'd get those queen rushes from months ago. Get lots of queens and rush the opponent with them and they'd keep healing each other. If creep is the limiting factor then that's easy enough. Get lair and overlord speed. Make a creep highway and use your queens to plant some tumors here and there along the creep highway to make it more permanent.
So overall just make spore crawlers then Wankey since you dislike relying on queens for anti-air. Or maybe consider a crazy fast lair. Like just after or before ling speed (keeping all 3 in gas).
If a protoss forge fast expands they will generally follow it up with stargate tech. Getting extra queens will help you hold off the voidrays and not delay you much since you will need that queen later anyway. A protoss going forge expand has no way of dealing with your overlord before a stalker or sentry comes out. Which will give you plenty of time to roam near the pylons to check for tech. (forge fast expand means few pylons to place tech around so easier to see where the buildings will go)
One base stargate voidray means that the fastest a void ray can come out of the stargate is roughly 6:00 or a little after (assuming they went 1 gate stargate). If you start sending your overlord in at about 5:00 you will see if there is a stargate making. About this time the protoss will generally only have one ranged unit out on the field. If they send the ranged unit to attack your overlord you can just send a drone into their base using a mineral walk to get past the zealot to scout the areas that your overlord will not see.
Against terran you just need to deduce what they CAN have but what you CAN scout. A banshee can not be finished until 5:50 and cloak will not be finished until 6:40. If you send in an overlord between 5:00 and 5:40 you will be able to see the starport and tech lab being used. If your overlord gets denied you can run lings up the ramp and see what is up there. If you see a rax with no add on that means they are generally teching (if you saw the gas with the initial worker scout). This does not mean that if you see an addon they are not getting banshees though.
Another big tell is if you see a bunker. A bunker signifies that they are teching into something and do not want to die right away. By continuously checking up the ramp with lings and see what they have there you can deduce what they could be doing. Also, having overlords around the map so that you can check for banshees passing by may give you enough time to react if you are still unable to tell what is coming. If they are going ANY type of tech route, you have map control with your overlords and with lings at their ramp, and at any watchtower.
If you see a whole bunch of hellions at the top of the terran ramp that means that any banshee play will be slowed down or not even come at all. And queens DO do very well vs hellions and marines. You may not need to get 5, but if start an extra queen at roughly the 5:30 mark you will be safe from most banshee plays and your third queen can spread creep or help transfuse another queen if a bunch of marines and hellions DO come.
Keep in mind that all the times I gave here are the earliest you have to deal with these things. If they decide to do one of these builds and are slow about it then not only are they stupid but they are behind. So any "extra precautions" you made are now not even that big of a deal. Queens and spore crawlers ARE the best to deal with these units. You do not need to blindly over commit to either one, you just need to use the timings and be able to see what they do and don't have. Scouting is not just about what they have, it is also about what they CAN'T have. If they are going double factory hellions they can not have banshees with cloak coming out as fast as they could be.
Again, be active with your overlords and your zerglings. If either of them are teching hardcore you have COMPLETE map control. Watch the day9 daily on "scouting without scouting" here: http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/5130585/. He pretty much talks about exactly what I have said here, but without the timings. Hope all this helps, GLHF.
Queens alone won't do much vs. Marines and Hellions push, but with support of Lings and if you keep transfusing Spine Crawlers, you will be in awe how easy is to defend from that kind of push with Queens. But, unlike Queens, if you go blindly for Spore Crawlers and he goes for Marines and Hellions, you are seriously fucked.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wankey
you might be surprised how well they do ... in my experience, queens is the optimal all around defensive unit, when in doubt, build one or two more queens (at least early, later i might rather make crawlers)Quote:
Originally Posted by Wankey
quoted for emphasis.Quote:
Originally Posted by RamiZ
roach+queen agression midgame is a far-fetched strategy; it might work in close positions and vs zerg, but i wouldnt sweat the inability to use queens offensive too much; its always nice to have them there, to instantly spread to new expansions, spread creep faster whenever you find time for it and provide that semi-mobile defensive units; if you have a few of them theyre even pretty good at denying hit and run tactics from single dropships.Quote:
Originally Posted by wankey
... if you really want to expand upon the utility of your excess queens, try combining them with drops and / or nydus. i cant generalize a comment on when and how to nydus, esp not as i dont do it enough myself (each nydus costs gas so better make sure its worthwhile!), but if you get drop you, can harss mineral lines with roach/banelings and while youre at it, load up queens to plant tumors in far off locations to provide vision and restrict enemy building-space. im still experimenting with this, but really, if you have extra queens from earlier, and if youre going drop anyway, why not?
... the real beauty of queens is healing the big expensive tier3 units once you get there and happen to have 3-4 full energy queens laying around.. that can really help with keeping a momentum going.
Bottom line is, work on your scouting so you can react to the specific thing your opponent is doing. but when you fail to scout, never settle for crossing your fingers and hope he doesnt go for a certain timing attack; as long as your able to see it when it moves out at least, and have the right mindset & preparations to begin with, you can hold it! so make those preparations; some extra queens, crawlers in the right places and ability to make roaches as well as banelings.
.. if youre going for an economy lead and get caught blind, take every defensive precaution! if the enemy builds a 1base timing attack, you can invest rather a lot in defending and still end up ahead after having held him off... As long as you have the right mindset, you will learn with experience
Queens are awesome to use with transfusion. I once held of a huge protoss deathball using it. I went a bit to much for the macro part, but extremely quickly rebuilded and smashed him.
Voidrays and banshes get demolished by Hydra's who cost about the same and move much faster than both on creep altho slower than both off creep.
Duh. The problem is early voidray. No enemy is going to go ONLY banshee unless they're a noob. I'm talking about the diamond player that kills off all your scouting capability, puts marines on every corner of his base (as per usual) and hit you with voidray/ banshee (just 2 or 3) harass while hitting you with ground forces.
you can usually poke a zergling in the ramp or front base and notice how little units there are or how little gateways there arefor an indication of early void rays... or that very first overlord u should have behind their mineral line, should be sent in for the suicide run to again check his if he has double gas and potentially spot buildings or lack of buildings.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wankey
If there is even a weird slight gateway/unit number, build 2 extra queens, and ur overlord that u should have position around your base should spot the void ray as it comes in and just gather ur queens there. 4v4 queens should beat voidrays assuming u can micro a bit and have around 2-3 transfusions.
A similiar thing can be done with early banshee's of course its slightly harder to scout that and cloak is a pain in the ass. but again if its early banshee there shouldnt be more than 3 or 4 max, and again queens plus a spore for detection should be fine. I find the banshee more annoying than the void ray.
It doesnt always work out but I find the more queens u have the less likely u will die to early air rushes. I dont know about you but recently Ive been building extra queens, helps with the creep spread and a good defensive unit in all cases.
yeah, a 'hidden' banshee rush usually shows no more than 5 marines guarding the front and no barracks addon. agianst protoss, the low sentry count is a tell. overlord sacrifices are good, but sometimes they dont give you the full info you wanted. in that situation, you are a scrub and a fool not to make precautionary queens.. i happens to many of us, but its only our own faults.
Additionally, Spore crawlers decreased rooting-duration will certainly help against such ugly surprises. Getting one spore is certainly wise whenever in doubt early on. since it sees longer than it shoots, at 6 ingame seconds rooting time, itll even make for sufficient semi-mobile detection vs banshees!
i think this is key, spotting how many marines / rax they have. I think in the game I played with the banshee bs I actually *thought* about it because I saw so little marines and no addon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Todie
The perfect answer. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Todie
Necro, closed