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Ok, have you noticed how much more active players seem on average this season? I'm guessing a lot of the "dead wood" is indeed missing, and the tops of each division are significantly more competitive. Case in point: I finished Bronze rank 7 last season. Thus far I've peaked at 12, but have largely been between 18 and 26, and fall back much more significantly with losing streaks. I've not lost hope as I have been able to re-climb easily enough. Your thoughts and observations?
Yep, and it was bound to happen. The game isn't new anymore, which means less n00bs to pwn. People who stopped playing probably haven't came back for this season.
My business profesor owned a copy of StarCraft 2 ^^
"Damn, this game is so hard to play! There are so many buttons..." were his exact words after 2 campaign missions in easy. Other friends got SC2 as a gift or a trade for another game. They stopped playing as well, but after a month or so.
Takes skill and intelligence to play this game :P
Oh, and hard work too... never forget that :D
but, overall yes, the ladder is more active now and the competition is a lot tougher.
Yeah, I've noticed how alot of players have a negative win/loss ratio.Quote:
Originally Posted by protoswarrior
I tried to get into masters, I had like a +10 winning spree. I barely moved up in rank. . .
and then I was on a losing spree like losing 6-7 games in a row. . .
Damned.
took me a while to hit the losing-streaks this season, btu by now ive had plenty of streaks both ways and im back at around where i ened up finishing s1; around rank 30 diamond. feel like im improving though; ffeels like rarely lose by getting outplayed but by beeing a bit silly, playing a bit too risky etc.. shit i can learn from
In light of all of this, I almost think it would be useful for them to evaluate if they need to readjust the "skill level" formula again. The entire mentality of this game was to be accessable to new players while being a good stomping ground for expirienced players to work on.
I have no relevant data to work with, but I fear that the current situation may evolve to (over long term) a place where new players will get owned HARDCORE in bronze or even practice league.
what would that help?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gifted
its not like the formula has any direct influence over who is active playing and who isnt.
... anyway im still very unsure what rating and ranking within our division actually means and how we were placed in them; dont know if each division has players with similar MMR whin it (at season start) or if everyone is spread out to make divisions as similar to eachotehr as possible; to make rank mean something.
.. rating (points) doesnt seem to mean much. i've been favoured against people that has higher rating than me... so im still leaning towards points mainly being a reflection of activity and rate of improvment relative only to your own past performance; the only "absolute" measurement of skill being the very hidden MMR that only reveals changes in terms of promotions, demotions and who get matched against who (when i get matched vs platinums, im not doing so well, if i ever get matched against masters, ill know im doing better)
They put people with similar MMR into the same divisions. But this is only when the division is created. Over time the ones at the top of division could improve and the ones at the bottom of the division could be worse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Todie
You're right about points being reflection of activity. The only way to have an idea is see who you're matched up against that they rank you as even.
If you're in Diamond and you're even with platinum players then Blizzard MMR considers you low Diamond. If you play against all Diamond players then Blizzard considers you mid diamond. If you play against masters players then Blizzard MMR considers you high diamond. That's the only observable thing we can see.
I think I used the wrong terminology or angle in hindsight. The formula itself is solid IMHO. My concern is ratios, I'm sorry I used the wrong term, busy with kids this morning.
At this point it's:
20% bronze
20% silver
20% gold
20% plat
20% diamond+
I'm not saying it's not working today/tomorrow. I'm looking at the long term. The skill difference between the leagues will easily shift to being much more difficult as time goes on. I just think a tweak on the ratios overtime will probably benefit the game the most. It was a random thought, not one that should be TOO definable. Time will have the ability to tell me if I'm relevant or not.
Ultimate concern: SC1 players entering multiplayer and getting obliterated by "low skill" people which could be considered platinum+ by todays standards.
I've always wondered why the rankings are pyramid like. With Bronze being something like 40%-50%. 20% seems kind of low for the league that supposed to have new players after practice league especially since Diamond has about the same.
I'm sure there's a reason though.
That's true. Doubt they'd want to adjust it since it would mean a lot of people get demoted which hurts the casual player base.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gifted
I think they just anticipate the very top level are not in suffient number and high enough in skill to pull up the general skill level of their 20% slice. Like think about it...4 gate well executed can take you up quite high. And everyone's level of refinement is quite low. And in general terms a lot of people saying like below the very top levels Korean ladder > EU ladder > NA ladder in terms of skill.
Not sure how many years is needed for everyone to increase their general skill level to create the problem you propose Gifted. It's not like everyone has a large amount of time and motivation to improve rapidly in terms of their mechanics. And if there's no rapid improvement in mechanics then the problem you propose should never arise.
If it's a pyramid system then it's harder for the casual players at the bottom to get promoted. With an equal distribution of 20% then it's easier for someone in bronze to get promoted. The system is basically targetted at making casual players feel better about themselves. It's not a pure competitive system.Quote:
Originally Posted by TychusFindlay
Definitely harder now... I was promoted to Diamond at the beginning of this season (which isn't much of a difference as I was mostly matched against diamond+ players last season at rank 3 Platinum), and I have been seriously getting tooled with. I lost 12 out of my last 13 games and everyone I play seems to know they're going to win from the first 8 minutes, but draw the game out to try fun builds that ultimately humiliate me more. I had a positive win/loss ratio last season, almost at 75% actually, and now its like 90% loss/win lol.
I have to agree that I haven't been rolled over as often as I've had wtf did I do that for games and silly stuff. Mostly I have to have more early game aggression and throw my opponent off balance. When I've done this, I win more, but sometimes my opponent narrowly beats my rush with his/her own. My scouting is also improving. There is hope. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Todie
I feel your pain. I cruised up to rank 12 in my bronze division about 2 weeks ago (+/- a couple days) and have only won like 5 or 6 of my last 22, knocking me back all the way to 27 as of last night. :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Twilice
I'm not totally complaining though. More of a simple venting. I'm actually glad in a way because I can see the next level of improvement in front of me, I just have to do it.
Well, with the new patch, things seem to be turning around. I was able to win most of my matches since yesterday. The only race I haven't figured out my timings against yet is Zerg. The WG nerf has changed the matchup a bit. I have to figure out how Protoss can counter a roach rush with speedling while being safe to take my natural. Forge FE might be ONE solution, but it won't work on all maps, so I'll need to play around with sentry numbers to know if I can cut a couple of sentries for more stalkers to defend against roaches and possibly kill ovies. The other thing is midgame banelings... I need to figure out how to get enough HT (and enough gas) to deal with them. I might need to take a very quick third purely for gas to support this... I don't know.
I've had to tweak my toss game a little also. I've had some success delaying the sentries and holding my choke with a cannon-backed zealot/stalker mob until a collossus or 2 spawn and blink finishes. I still spawn a couple sentries for the defensive shield (not ff) to boost my units' lifespans. I'm trying to work a few more in for hallu scouts, but the lack of a fast expo, except on maps where there is space to hide one, is painful.
The faster sentry spawn time pre-gate has caused me grief when I'm Zerg. My ling rush/pressure is practically void of effectiveness if later than the 4 minute mark now. I'm either too few in numbers (ling to lot) or ff'd to hell.
Leads to a question: I often have fewer lings/roaches because I go fast spire a lot as Zerg, mostly to have a scouting muta/harass pack. What would the most efficient timing/build order be? And how many spines is a good number?
My terran has improved early game mostly because I started 2 and 4 rax early pressure, depending on what my first scout sees.
regardless of what P matchup you are referring to, putting off expanding or attacking 'til you have 2 colossi and blink is not advised. conceivably, you could go either fast colossus OR fast blink (hough you'd better make sure to establish an advantage while that tech is fresh), doing both off 2 gas only however, is being silly.Quote:
Originally Posted by flak4321
In the grand scheme of things, the change on the warpgate-tech research time isnt big. it can basically be offset by using more chronoboost on it.. Just make your early units and play a straightforward game!
Zergling pressure is generally reasonable to apply mostly as means of delaying a protoss expansion, i geuss thats what you mean. now, the viability of such an approach is determined by how easily the space around the expo can be constricted by the protoss, using forcefields and structures. for example, xelnaga is rather open -> harder to protect -> easier to harass. Further, concerning the sentry count, early gas mining is a key factor in early sentry production, so if you want to harass, send a drone scout no later than at 14 food, and see if he's taken both gases & if hes using them, and optimally prevent him from taking the second one. his lets you know his number of early sentries and/or other tech will be somewhat limited.Quote:
The faster sentry spawn time pre-gate has caused me grief when I'm Zerg. My ling rush/pressure is practically void of effectiveness if later than the 4 minute mark now. I'm either too few in numbers (ling to lot) or ff'd to hell.
Finally, if you identify a window for applying pressure on something like a 3gate-expo build, zerglings alone might not be relliable in inflicting guaranteed damage, so if you're going to commit to an attack, its often worth making an early roachwarren in anticipation; even if its just to add some 3-4 roaches. They are less constiricted by the few fiorcefields that will inevitably go up and might help you to get some key kills or deny / destroy / delay a nexus.
... The key thing about early zerg aggression is to never hesitate; if you have the initiative, then you are continually deciding whether to keep pressuring or prepare to fall back, as you start powering economy instead of reinforcing.
generally, its OK to quit reinforcing as soon as you are certain of scoring enough guaranteed damage (kills/nexus deny etc) to make the attack worthwhile. but its a judgement call in every unique situation, and only really improves with experience.
IMO zerg play is very matchup specific. I would generally advice agaisnt mutalisk-centric play, for a lower league player in general, but specifically, aganst protoss.; in my experience, you want to have already attained a momentum advantage before going mtualisks against protoss..Quote:
Leads to a question: I often have fewer lings/roaches because I go fast spire a lot as Zerg, mostly to have a scouting muta/harass pack. What would the most efficient timing/build order be? And how many spines is a good number?
ZvZ and ZvT are machups that are also regularly quite tense early on.
For early ZvZ there are more intricacies than im comfortable covering here atm, but generally, if you happen to spot or are able to force an enemy into a defensive position, making spines, and teching / getting gas slower than you are (scouted by a sacked OL or more favorably: a zerglings run-by), then thats a momentum you can favourably use to:
first, drone up properly (on main and nat expo with 2 queens) while only holding barely enough units to defend any attack; knowing the enemy invested in defense that he cant attack with, the units you reactively make whenever you see him moving to attack should be enough to hold him off.
second, get that spire up asap, powered by gas from 4 gaysers, get that initial pack of 5+ mutalisks out and on him harassing asap, while taking a 3rd base and making the calls on how many mutas its worth making, when you should worry about a counter-attack (by land?); to what extent you can face that with ur own ground army head on, & how many crawlers you will need. (simple answer: seeing roaches, get some crawlers to hold you 'til you have mutas without needing ur own roaches, later, if/when his roach roduction scales up with his economy, mass the shit out of spines 'til you have a mobile answer other than mutas; mtuas dont kill roaches very fast and die easily to hydra/queen/infestor, esp if you dont micromanage very proficiently.)
As for Mutas ZvT, its all about scouting to figure out how aggressive the enemy will be and with what; i recommend 14 hatch 15 pool+extractor; sending first OL made onto expo-area to look for bunker-rushes. scouting: drone-scout at 9-10 and look for initial barracks-count and if he's taking a gas. (if 2 racks or no gas, expect mass marine,; youll want some banelings) continually poke the ramp with lings and prepare asap, to send in one or two OL's for saciificial scouting.
when you get some tells, (scouting a building command centre means u are freer to mass drones) prepare minimal defence; the infrastructure is the most important; roach-warren and banesnest enables you to make these units reactively.. Queens are the most versatile unit defensively; make that when in doubt. crawlers are decent too. All the while mass drones, and once minimal defensive measures are on the way, go lair and start mining gas properly (but never so much that it cuts mineral income to the point where you cant afford making new drones continually) then just get their spire and that intial pack of 5+ mutas out asap and see where it takes you.
striking the balance between continued emphasis on mutalisks and commitments to the ground army such as getting infestors, is always an intricate matter where i cant really offer generalized advice, other than that i'd let up on mutalisk production on pressure if i started seeing thors out and about.
Thank you, Todie. :) Muta harass is my best harass when I draw Zerg (random player :) ). The basic gist I'm getting regardless of matchup is to scout -> react -> safe expo -> then muta, with react and safe expo able to be simultaneous if I have enough econ from my main to do so, i.e. with the "wall of crawl" established (thanks to HD for the moniker) to a reasonable extent, in lieu of or alongside some early roaches, and pressure the expo attempts rather than trying to rush the main.
Vs. Terran: Muta melting marines are a problem, so I have been getting my gas at 7 drones, getting ling speed 1 asap, banes + speed (though my micro needs work ;) ), a few (6-8) mutas for harass, then I get into a roach-hydra build by mid game, while continuing minor muta harass. I'll pop some ultras in this matchup if the bio ball is larger than the tech ball, or if the terran goes mass Thors, but not so many vs. thors, rather I go more hydras for dps, with broodlords to lead in.
vs. Toss: Yeah, when I scout cannons, my early expo harass changes from lings to roaches, which is usually countered by a couple of fast voids, but these are no trouble as long as (a) my harass is consistent enough to (i) deny expos and/or (ii) keep them at home to defend and/or (b) I can pop a few mutas to deal with them. Side note: I've been using more spore crawlers vs. Terran for bancheese and have begun popping a few here too.
vs. Zerg: My biggest issue in this matchup is allowing myself to be outmacro'd. When I control this, I win. When I don't... well, one can't always be on the right side of the fury of the swarm ;).
The addition of more crawlers is an abvious "duh" moment for me. :) Each of these harasses might be/feel more successful if I weren't so vulnerable afterwards. I'll also note that the increased apm to play Zerg is benefitting my play in the other races. :)
P vs matchups: on average, my expo goes up between 6:30 and 9:00, depending on how active the fighting is and how safe I feel doing it. The colossi usually spawn as my probe transfer takes place, so it takes longer than I made it seem. I also have 4-7 cannons at each base by the 9:00 mark, scouting dependent.
If I see strong early air coming, and i'm on 2 bases, its 7 and blink stalkers, with the colossus dropped in favor of earlier upgrades, though an obs or 2 will appear. I've also been experimenting with taking a 3rd base and going void/phoenix in answer, mix depending on matchup. If I see strong ground, well this is where the matchup causes some fuss. The colossi are a must vs. terran, especially if I scout a 1-2 base turtle with 4+ raxes. I'll get to 3 bases asap while denying his/her 3rd as long as possible.
Vs. Zerg is similar, except a good Z usually has a 3rd when I have my 2nd, especially by the 9 mark, allowing a small muta flock. Note the 3rd is at best half saturated. I can knock that 3rd down with consistency, but not as often as I'd like.
PvP is another don't get outmacro'd situation for me. As long as Ican produce enough to consistently deny expos and defend appropriately, I'm usually fine.
Thanks again!
Your expo timing is important; its important you get it going reasonably early largely regardless of what ur up against; even if you opt for the safer opening of pool & gas for speed before hatch, aim to expand at 20 food when you have 4ish lings out to clean up scouts and early units. Even if you send a scout at 9, generally you cant be sure of having gotten info before deciding whether ur going pool or hatchery first......Quote:
Originally Posted by flak4321
exceptions to getting hatchery early being vs rushy zerg builds, crazy all in proxyrax+lotsa scv's allins and maybe 2gate zealot rushes (if close-pos or proxied) ... you will see these coming before a hatchery finishes; sometimes it can be worth cancelling, but im not gonna analyze that now.
.... getting that 2nd hatch up is what gives you flexibility moving forward. delaying the hatch longer without the opponenet having given stuff up to force you there constricts your later choices by means of economy as well as larva and creep-spread.
Yes. pushing up a ramp is generally risky. if they're not moving down to expand they're up to something, maybe voidrays. mb you can attack some buildings from below with vision from an overlord but seeing 2+ senties with banked energy, dont build your game on pushing up there but contain while you can, prepare to defend a 1base tech timing attack while building econ and tech at a safe pace.Quote:
[...]
some early roaches, and pressure the expo attempts rather than trying to rush the main.
gas on 7 is sick early and not worthwhile. evne for getting mutas, you want to be able to afford many mutas without it holding otehr efforts back, this requires an expansion and a significant done-count; making extractor at 7 food and dedicating 3 drones to it that early will hurt early mineral income by a lot and thus slow down your overall scaleup.Quote:
Vs. Terran: Muta melting marines are a problem, so I have been getting my gas at 7 drones, getting ling speed 1 asap, banes + speed (though my micro needs work ;) ), a few (6-8) mutas for harass
lingspeed and banelings is good for defense against marines, but creep works just as well! make your hatchery firs, at 14 food, then your pool and extractor; adding queens and ling speed -> baneling nest if you have reason to expect any semi-early marine pressure.
if your ling/bane isnt performing well vs marines, stick to engaging them on creep only, especially in early, defensive, stages of the game.
the only way it'll be effective to keep throwing roaches at someone defending with even just a few voidrays is if your economy is bigger, cuz you should count on more voids and otehr support being added as(if) you stream in more units, making it harder and harder for your units to kill as their resources worth of units.Quote:
vs. Toss: Yeah, when I scout cannons, my early expo harass changes from lings to roaches, which is usually countered by a couple of fast voids, but these are no trouble as long as [...]
.. ive seen this happen in one or two pro games, but never experienced it myself. so i advice aginst it; go on attacking with the units in place that you cant save anyway, but pull back and build econ, tech & (minimal)defense. hydra/roach drop is a good transition vs stargate play.
scout and build as many drones as you can get away with, trying to make it so that defences you do have (if any) plus queens and units built when seeing enemy coming, are just enough to hold, in a battle where you can reinforce faster because your hatcheries are closer.....Quote:
vs. Zerg: My biggest issue in this matchup is allowing myself to be outmacro'd. When I control this, I win. When I don't... well, one can't always be on the right side of the fury of the swarm ;).
i cannot comment on specific timings for protoss, ill just say taht 14 canons on two bases is always too much. Make units instead, and use scouting and anticipation to position our units defensively if needed. i'd say 1-2 or tops 3 canons per base can work well to buy you time vs drops and air attacks, but unless your enemy is firmly dedicate to attacking you with a smaller economy, even that canon count is pushing it, until you have epxanded your economy beyond two bases, when it becomes more difficult to cover all bases with a standing army.Quote:
I also have 4-7 cannons at each base by the 9:00 mark, scouting dependent.
... with so much money in canons, you constrict your own ability to control the map (holding xelnaga towers, denying expansions etc) and counter-attack.
I agree, let us all go to the shop and buy that amazing successor of starcraft 1.
Hidden Content:
@Todie:
The fast gas only gets 1-2 drones of the first 12-14, 2nd gas at 16-18, total 1st base drones 28. 12 get transferred to my natural, along w/ queen #2, and I drone both to 22 minimum, with one getting to 26 or so. When I feel ok to take my third, usually at about the 12 to the 15 minute mark at latest, I have an additional 10 or so drones to send, plus surplus from my now dwindling main. Timing for my fourth varies significantly, as it should I guess. :)
This is usually very good income, but not great. I'm consistently gas starved, but have some 3000 or so extra mins. These have been used in my adaptation of the mutaling strat, but seldom dip below 1000 anymore.
I had a good z v p last night. Shakuras plateau, both spawned on the south, me left, him right. He boxed in, looked like he over-feared the ling rush. I do do a 6 or 8 pool every so often, so he was right to have some preparation, but he cost himself his early expo, though he did get it anyway.
Seeing him walled up, I fast-tracked my mutas, totally abandoning roaches. My d was speedlings, a few spines, and several spores (It looked like, with fast gas and cyb core, that he was going voids), and I took my natural immediately after seeing this. He would go into a delayed 4 gate robo shortly thereafter. My first 10 mutas took half his probes (I'd say around 10-12 or so) at a cost of 2 mutas. Scouting with a lone muta, I saw him keeping his stalkers and sentries back. He also popped a prism and 2 phoenixes.
Now up to 19 mutas, I struck again, while tumoring to my third. After a complete army trade, I had resources to pop another 10 mutas. My third was on its way up, but he popped it. My flock of mutas had gron to almost 3 dozen, with +2 attack and +1 armor, w/ armor 2 on the way. I sniped his 3rd, then had to quickly defend my own. Wasn't hard, thanks to you. ;)
I then sent a small group of mutas and lings back to his 3rd to finish the job there. I found a 2nd attempt at a third on the way and moved into it with my flock of now 50ish mutas and 30 lings. He would GG at this point. Lol.
i feel like numbers are irrelevant whenever you're far from on top of macro; its hard to compare when there is a significant disparity.Quote:
Originally Posted by flak4321
fact is, delaying gas grows your economy faster, and given how mineral-heavy the zerg defensive measures are, this will serve you well even against aggression.
if you compare builds with early hatchery, larva-dedicated queens and delayed gases,with builds that take early gas(es) you will find that the gas-intensive opening builds are only ever worthwhile if they transition effectively to a series of actions that significantly constrains and restricts the enemy; if you are not being very aggressive with roaches or banelings, getting all the gas is essentiall sacrificing economy for potential tech. is that a straightforward beneficial decision? i think mostly, its not.
to be concrete, taking that early gas at 7 drones actually destroys a drone, and putting even only 1-2 on it takes away a significant portion of your mineral income; because you dont have that much to take away from yet. All this considering you could make that first 100 gas fast enough (if you srsly need it) by taking the gas at 13-15 food while pool is building.
taking second gas as soon as 16-18 food builds on this further. If you saturate those gases you will have a lot of gas, but to be able to use that gas well, you need other strucures and a lair asap, constraining your queen production and again keeping your drone count low, as each structure made takes a drone.
.... if you are compromising your mineral-economy as well as your rate of expansion in favour of mining gas and teching, you are left vulnerable; even if you are able to hold off aggression, you are stretched thin to begin with, and the crisis-managing efforts of making crawlers and units will stretch you even thinner...
... a passive / bad opponent might handle aggression by early tech such as mutalisks, in a poor way. but wuoldnt you rather relly on playing to your races strenth than to the hope of catching someone off guard?
In my mind, the generally best way to improve with with zerg, as well as the easiest way to win, is playing for economy with the mindset to keep "just enough" safety and tech only when the coast is clear and its not taking away from building the early econ and readiness to react to early agression; keep it simple and -moment by moment, game by game- learn to rely on your macro to create and abuse an economic lead.
as ive said, if/when you do opt for pool-first builds, you'll want some early gas with that. even when doing hatch first, adding one extractor & saturating it temporarily can be good if youre actually anxious about an early attack (as i typical am vs terran); to get you lingspeed and/or a few roaches or banelings, but running at 6 drones worth of gas income at 18 supply is 1/3 of your potential mineral income... if youre doing that before even accumulating enough minerals to expand, be aware that youre not going towards an economy lead in any rational game.
I see.... this explains a lot. And in several different ways. ;) I did not realize I was beating myself with this. My goal is to have about 1000 gas stored when the spire finishes. However, I see now that my rush to gas is what is cramping my numbers elsewhere.
Some insight into my mindset which may be helpful: in SC1 and at first in SC2, I was either a Terran turtle in the extreme or a Protoss cannon turtler. My biggest SC2 adjustment has and continues to be balancing offense and defense so I can withstand the greater game-long fluidity, and the greatest part is scouting. Turtling does not work like it used to... and even in SC1, a Zerg turtle was still a tough thing to do.
I'm trying to break free of the turtle habit and evolve a more dynamic gameplay, basically. And adding the scout is paramount to gg in SC2. I get a lot of wins vs. passive players when I scout properly. No scouting makes for bad unit comp karma.
I realized these absolute necessities when I began having trouble getting beyond 2 base with any race. I feel as though if I can get a respectable skill level with the apm/multitasking intensive Zerg, I will improve over all with all races. I play random so I won't lose all my skills with Toss and Terran in the process.
I might benefit from having a comp that meets or even exceeds the recommended tech specs as well, but that's a rant for another time. ;)
I thank you for your aid very much. I have used more spines and spores (bancheese and zealot rush have not been as much of an issue the last few days, for example). Using some crawlers has made me feel safer in some of my harasses in that I'm not totally vulnerable to an immediate counter, should I not be able to save any of my army.
I need to work on my macro a lot. Most of my issue is spawning larvae and overlords at good times/intervals, but I am getting better. I get what you're saying about the econ lead, having been on the wrong end many times. I think I might be able to expand faster if I could get drones out faster, and directed them more appropriately gas vs mins. I think I'm getting it, but as my sig says: "It's my execution that kills me."
Hm, one thing you can do is 10(11) pool with extractor trick. Rush with 3-4 pairs of zerglings. If done correctly you will have a slight spot to just spam drones while you harras, remember this is not an all in focus on your economy after your initial rush. (works only for close positions)
I've actually used the extractor trick vs. Terrans when I see a wall-in in progress, especially if the wall is being backed by bunkers. This tells me any attack may, and I stress "may", be delayed. 4 out of 5 times it is delayed, but when it's not... oh boy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Twilice
I agree this is more effective w/ close positions as an overlord can scout for a spell. My main build following this trick in close positions is a roach rush into roach hydra (with the occassional nydus worm 2 pronged strike). Works well vs. players who leave open spots in their bases. Sometimes I have to pop a few mutas to clear a spot.
My most recent example is vs. a Terran who went mass Thors on Saturday. I denied his expos 7 times with Todie's advice in play, and countered with roach-hydra double evo into all hydra, even getting to 4 bases relatively unmolested. Didn't hurt that I had attack +3 and armor +2 by the time he had +1 attack and no armor on his thors and only +2 attack on his infantry. Likely a better playerd would have owned me, but I take what I can get. :)
I didn't mean the scout extractor trick, I meant you spawn drones until 10, build extractor build a drone and then cancel.
I knew what you meant :). And that is the extractor trick I meant. The scouting just triggers it. If I know I'm not going to get lings in in time, I'll do this for the economic boost.
The extractor scout trick is the only one I don't do. I'll gas steal on occasion. I just don't get a drone into my opponent's base that easily, except when I send one of the first 8. Ah the choice of econ vs. intel, no?
you should get the scout in quite consistently; the reson to scout around 10 vs terran is that they can and willactually wall off entierly, somewhat early, so scouting as early as 9-10 supply almost ensures you get in.(to see if hes getting gas and how many barracks and maybe even more, or maybe steal a gas...)
against protoss, they might do a partiall wall, completing it with a zealot. but even then a drone can get in by mineral walking; just rightclick his mineralfield and the drone will go right through the zealot (taking one hit) and keeping alive quite well just by moving (on patrol-comand f you will)until a sentry or stalker pops out (this way you often getOK scouting info on P by scouting on 13-14 supply)
... concerning the extractor trick, this is not typically a reactive thing to do; what people typically mean is doing it before making your first overlord, as to bump up your drone-count without requiering the OL as early (in turn, maybe, to save up for a pool before finally making the OL)... this is not to be done reactively, becasue you will typicaly not have any info to go on by the time you need to decide if you are doing it.
however, you are right that if you are supoply-blocked and need just a few more units out asap, a reactive extractor trick may help. however, as i said, distingiush this from the extractor trick as part of an opening buildorder as twilice suggested.
It works pretty darned well in 2v2, 10 pool + extractor trick (or extractor trick first and then 11 pool and then again extractor trick, not sure which one works best yet). If the opponents are rushing you can anti rush them, and if they are not you can put a bit of pressure on them while your ally macro up for a following timed push and/or expand safely.
Yeah, I suppose there is a difference. ;) As an opener, one should just do it if you feel it necessary. As a reactive move, I have had the economic boost prove nice when I have a group of ovies and larvae both spawing close together shortly afterward. Allows for quick use of the newlt spawned larvae.Quote:
Originally Posted by Todie
I have been working the scout in as often as possible. At the same time, my creep spread is improving. I just gotta get the spawn larvae going consistently and get that natural at the right time. When I have, I've gotten into long macro games often reaching 4-5 bases. I also have to keep from shooting myself in the foot by moving instead of attack-moving. Lost some army size there. :p
I've picked up on that too. My one 2v2 teammate is almost always Protoss, and she harasses well with dts, which helps us, but we still run into some issue vs. 2 Zergs who both do the extractor trick. At times I'll get to punish one because I 8 pooled. :D However, the zerg macro capacity in this MU is intense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Twilice
@ both of you: Btw, I'll do the opening extractor trick on an 8 pool, when ready. It works well in 1v1s when your opponent chooses not to wall off, or is late in doing so because, for example, he cheesed and failed or was doing a rine or lot rush, and ling speed finished just in time ;).
Let me also post a different question. How do you guys feel about an extra hatch in the main or natural for extra larvae, particularly before you grab your third (making it 3 hatches on 2 bases)? And what would good timing on getting your lair and hive be in this type of build?
In knowing you are playing in one of the lower leagues i'd like to stress consistency in fundamental mechanics (hotkeys and how u use em) and "make money spend money" stuff ... its surely cool to gradually increase ones understanding of more subtle priorities within the game, but if your in it to have fun by consistently improving your performance, never let a fix idea like a certain scouting technique, rush build or even creep-spreading habit in any way distort your focus on handling your fundamentals so that you are consistently moving towards making more money and spending it on shit that can kill your enemy.Quote:
Originally Posted by flak4321
with zerg, spawning larva and keeping enough overlords is pirority #1 (making about 1 OL per larva-injection is pretty good) Making drones (and other shit when u have enough or feel less safe) is prioority #2 ... at your level, when in doubt, just make drones and arrange for minimalistic safety with crawlers n queens etc...
.. knowing some things to do in between the injects is cool and will help you speed up your game and get more worhtwhile shit done, but the harder you try to stay on terget with what matters most, the better you'll do.
Literally none can do everything right all the time, but pretty much everyone can get their priorities straight about what is most worth the time, effort and focus!
Hope im not comming off as condescending. Peace!
You are not coming across as condescending. :D At times I feel like my responses may have frustrated you, but that's on me, not you. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Todie
One of the big reasons I started this dialogue is all of my Zerg attack strats prior to this were close to all-in or were all-in, leaving me near defenseless when an attack failed badly. I am thankful for all of the advice I have gathered here.
What I'm working on now is a build that I felt some comfort with back in December and January, and left behind in my search for better harassment and defensive capabilities: roach-muta into whatever I might need thereafter. Yes, I do love my mutas. With the added defense of crawler placement and the slight delay in my initial harass, I have come out a more competitive Zerg player, and am no longer getting mauled when my attacks failed. Or at least, the mauling takes a much greater commitment from my opponent. ;)
The economic advice I have gathered has made tech-switching so much easier, which has also led to more wins and a tougher player overall. A case in point: about 2-3 weeks ago when this thread just started its 2nd page, I had a z v t where my t opponent made a solid bunker/tank line in response to my roach hydra. I had the economy to counter with a combination of Ultras, roaches and Banelings.
As he/she was so commited to stopping my ground army, his/her air support was small. Or so I thought. Fully upgraded, (game went at least 30 to 40 minutes) My new ground army, with the ultras and roaches leading to draw the tank fire, made short work of the bunkers. He/she had close to 20 vikings, but as the landed it became most apparent that they do not handle ultras well. I guess he suspected/expected broodlords. ;)
When the bunker line and my ground army had completed their trade, only then did I send a flock of mutas in with more ultras (20 and 8-10, about), and finished what was a very satisfying win.
The only terrans who still give me fits are those that go heavy mech and/or mass banshees. I've had some success with changeling scouting and responding to such threats, but your advice about sticking to the fundamentals rings true here most of all. I have seen the economic advantage pay off, and I like it. Why out-think someone you can overwhelm?
To briefly pull this back to returning to the roach-muta build, this is something that balances attack, defense, harassment, and my natural skills with your advice. Situation depending, roach-hydra and the addition of banelings, speedlings and corruptors as needed have been equally helpful.
i advice against using hydras vs terran at all. its very hard to yield cost effective results; hydras immobility off creep leaves them sitting ducks vs the longer range mech-support, while healed infantry are simply much more cost effective than our hydras can ever be; hydras deal good damage but are much more expensive AND fragile than terran infantry.
as for mutas, obviously, whenever you use them, the prime thing to "do between injections" is to actively pick and praud at weak spots with the mutas. they generally perform badly in attack-move visitations unless they and their support can quickly downsize the nearby anti air units.
... gain, vs terran, mutas and roaches can both have their place almost regardless of what the enemy does, but even when combined, they dont stand up too well vs supported infantry.. i guess people in the lower leagues arnt that great at massing marines, but if you start facing better ppl, they might, and roaches n'or mutas perfom well at all vs proper concentrations of marines (marauders hurt roaches too..)
.... the easiest fix for you aguht to be to mix in zergings and baneligs vs terrans (unless they are light on infantry heavy on mech in withc case raw roaches can do well enough)
... roahces can form a nice backbone and take some artillery fire while still standing (unlike ling/bling) but given the combination of longer range, higher dps and higher density (smaller size units) marines and marauders often stop roaches cold when their numbers are large enough. Zerglings and banelings in a mix, even if attack-moved along with the rest (- but better still, if kept a bit separate and braugt in on a flank after the roaches drew fire from any seiged tanks -) will use the bio-balls density against it and even the score in terms of dps. alternatively, it might send the enemy running or trying to spread out, witch allows the roaches to gain ground and mb get at any supporting mech, while you replenish the lings etc.
.... note that decent larva management is integral to any strategy that involves lings (even at a low level of play) and that having to remember making new banelings continuously can also be a challenging piece of additional macro.
glad to have helped glhf :)
One thing to note about the lower levels is the inconsistency of upgrading. Vs. a terran that does not have any upgrades to your +2, +2 or better, hydras can own terran infantry, but you still need numbers and an econ/macro setup capable of creating at least one solid reinforcement wave before your initial assault goes down. That said, hydras will indeed be weak against many terran combos. My best hydra plays consistently involve nydus worms into weak points. This is especially true concerning top 5 divisional bronzes (where I am) and the silver players the match-up generator sometimes throws at you. Scouting can not only reveal what your opponent is doing, but can give you an idea of the quality of opponent you are facing. :)
Often times vs. Terran, I find myself racing to prevent expos and limit my foe to cheap units or making a force large enough to counter a last ditch Thor or BC assault. In these cases, what seems to matter most is that I keep a steady stream of units building as opposed to any particular types. This is where I default to roach-hydra most. hydra dps with a significant upgrade advantage really kills Thors and BCs. Some ultras help vs. Thors. Some corruptors can help vs. bcs also. And yes, there are lings. Not banelings as often as I would like. It really depends on what my opponent chooses to throw at me. I'll take your most recent advice into consideration, and may modify this accordingly. ;)
Marine rushes into bio ball are common and easily handled. Banshee rushes are also common. We in the lower tiers do not see many hellion runbys. We will see reapers on certain maps, and actually this happens more often than hellions. The cliff jumping is the key. It's actually easier to get hellions with speedlings than it is to get speed reapers owing to the cliff jumping.
I'd like to turn this to the z v p match-up. In particular, I'm having increasing difficulty knocking out expos and find myself facing more late game carrier hordes, even when I have a severe econ advantage because of gold expos and cannon spam.
Basically the question is, what would be an efficient way to deal with heavy cannons around expos and ramps? Roaches do ok when they can get a surround, as do hydras and mutas, and broodlords. But the ground units can't take a well cannon defended choke. This is the one situation where I really miss defilers. Bear in mind I usually don't get the time to get ultras or broodlords out in sufficient numbers. Banelings, maybe? Large cannon groups with sufficient stalker and sentry backup nullify this, though. I ask because I lost to this at least 3 times last night, and found it odd to have faced this 3 times in one night...
to add something about hydras vs T, ill say that though it can situationally look cool and seem effective,actively reaching out with a hydra-based force to do something off your creep is often quite alot like rolling a dice; you have verylimited control over how well the hydras will perform, becasue they cant reposition or retreat easily, and once exposed they die quick expensive deaths. with an upgrade advantage they might look like they trade effectively with for example marauders, but when you consider that a hydralisk costs 2x the gas and has less HP and armor than a marauder (that can also be healed) making that trade isnt worth it...
... even at a high levl of play, zerg players are not at all confident in their ability to keep hydras out of harms way while dealing damage...
... if using infestors is more or less out of the question for you, i can understand that you might want to use hydras more than others, but still, you use mutas and if you are keeping drones on minerals anyhwere near "correctly", gas should still be whats holding your production of mutalisks back...
its not strange. for a passive player, a safe way to cement an economic lead is to fortify.Quote:
Originally Posted by flak4321
how you brake him is really a detail that we shouldnt focus on. the problem is you are letting him take that gold or witchever other base while not scaling up your own economy even more to compensate; surpass his econ to worry about braking the fortifications later.
something else you can do is move around the defenses wherever possible; preventing mining at a base by attacking it from behind, with drops, burrow-move infestors or mutalisks. drops is probably the easiest way. (moving around the defenses need not mean attacking the mining sights; the main typicaly hosts much tech and is too big to cover well with canons)
... dealing with enemies that expand and fortify is a matter of map awarness and sense of direction; if hes making 3-4canons in his first expansion, thats alot of money that is NOT put in units meaning he will be less able to attack you for a while - so drone up and take another base! relax and be 90% focused on hitting your larva-injects for a while.. the only thing to think of when youve identified hes defensive is to look out for what his next move is.. hold the watchtowers and keep a zergling on each nearby expo-spots ...if he tries to take one and you see it, you have a significant window to do something about it before there are canons everywhere.. if you lose a scoting position,try to retake it....
as for units. VS protoss, i think youre best of not complicating things as little as possible! Roaches are good units. they do rather well in large groups without support from other units; only when faced with considerable numbers of immortals colossi or air units do they need help. they are also good to drop. if faced by air and/or colossi, add corrupters. (its likely to happen, build the spire in anticipation) hydras are good support but dont go crazy; they are fragile overall and especially vulnerable to colossi. transitioning well to hive tech isnt easy to get used to and when youre there, broodlords n'or utlras are quite as good without infestor support and both require a mature economy..
This build-up may take a bit, so bear with me. :) Being a random player rather than pure zerg, I get to see both sides of the coin. I annoyed a zerg opponent into starvation by forcing him to hit my cannons and denying him the scouting to stop my expos before they were semi-fortified. This particular zerg went heavy broodlords, but i countered with voids and blink-stalkers. This game was the source of my question for z v p as much as the games I lost.
In a second game, the zerg opponent stopped sending roaches and rolled over my main with 3 waves of banelings that numbered at least 40 per wave. I like this particular move as a breaker, but had he not been attacking my expo as well, my transition to voids would have completed, and his attention would have been diverted.
I bring these two games up as examples of strats Icould try. The former, as you stated in your most recent response, requires quite an economy. The latter however is cheap, but could leave a fledgling economy vulnerable. Simple food for thought. ;)
Infestors are something that only my low apm prevents (30-40 apm) in most instances because I'm using so much of that on larvae, attacks, scouting, etc. I have met some success FG'ing phoenixes though, so Iam inclined to keep working on using these guys.
A note on the 3 losses is a mistake I only noticed in replays: I scouted the other expos well enough, but I did not get an overlord or other airborne scout into any of their mains, and thus I missed not only expo opportunities of my own, but in 2 of the games their backsides were open at least for some muta/drop harass that could have been crippling. (Gives self a kick in the ass). I really have to get those scouts in! ;)
I have been back and forth on hydras lately. I think the match-up programming is fixing to bump me into silver soon, so I may be getting better opponents than what I used to, thus forcing me to be flexible to an extent I am unused to being, as the hydra's effectiveness is being eliminated/downgraded. I've actually found myself using different combos (roach-corruptor, infestor-ling-muta as examples) that i would not have normally considered. I'm not winning these games, but I am making enough of a challenge that my opponents are giving the 'gg' with some real meaning. ;)
i assume you mean broodlords are the former and banelings the latter?Quote:
Originally Posted by flak4321
both are expensive.. banelings in waves of "at lesat 40" in particluar is very pricey.
... if an opponent is passive and defensive, just try to make sure you are making more money for a while, and look for openings to cause damage without big risky investments.
i'd say the easiest way to use infestors is to relly on defensive fungals; instead of reacting to an attack with attack-moving whatever army you have into a threat at the edge of your creep and hope it ends well, infestors allow you to wait for the enemy to come to you and then hit them with fungals... or move forward behind our attackmoving army, laing down fungals to prevent retreat and add additional splash damage. its not that hard to do, if you have a decent habit of making control grops for different types of units and remember the fungal hotkey...Quote:
Infestors are something that only my low apm prevents (30-40 apm) in most instances because I'm using so much of that on larvae, attacks, scouting, etc. I have met some success FG'ing phoenixes though, so Iam inclined to keep working on using these guys.
to be clear, if 'the match-up programming' is fixing you to bump into silver soon thats because you are winning against better opponents than you used to (namely players in silver), not the other way around.Quote:
I think the match-up programming is fixing to bump me into silver soon, so I may be getting better opponents than what I used to
Per your PM request, here is a replay from May the 29th. This is Z v T and was a win for me. Admittedly, it was against an inferior opponent, but one who made me think a little. Features some Nydus work and a pretty standard roach/hydra build, at least by my standard. I do not remember the length exactly, but my average has been 20-30 game minutes, and this is not far off. :)
I will be coming back in a few minutes with a second and perhaps a third replay. The next one will be a loss.