Hello to you, Protoss players. I am coming with a gift of information that some of you may find interesting!
We have been looking into the 4gate issue and our designers have played with a lot of different fixes and changes, even those that were not strictly numbers related. While strong, 4gate is a lesser problem in other matchups, but we recognize that PvP is a different story.
Just throwing a nerf bat at warpgates would make protoss weak in early game. This is why we are currently looking at increasing warpgate research time, while at the same time compensating for it with reducing build time of protoss tier 1-1.5 units (though build times reduced only for gateways, cooldowns will stay the same for warpgates). This is an example of a fix you may see, but our developers plan to explore further options, before the patch officially hits.
Meh, I don't know. Wouldn't this require people to learn new strategies. Seems like tons of Diamonds are going to be playing like Bronzes for a few weeks afterwards. That's during the summer, soiunds like a good time to level up grind.
04-22-2011, 06:38 AM
JackhammerIV
Re: 4Gate will get fixed in next patch
Ummmmm...it won't affect just Diamonds. Every single Protoss player will have to redo and rethink their openings. If you realise most protosses now whether on offensive or defensive will time it so that their gateways finish when warp gate finishes and warp in 2-4 units. Let's take for example a 3 gate pressure in PvT. Warp gate finishes at around 6mins and protoss can pressure with 6 units.
Depending how they adjust the build times for gateway units and the warp gate research time it might open a hole in early protoss play. And a problem is....they'll probably put it on PTR in NA only meaning only NA server protosses get to play with it to get used to it and figure out a new opening build order.
A problem might arise where normally a protoss on 2-3 gates will have e.g. 6 units will suddenly have only 4-5 units after the change. Then the timings for resources will feel all off with a changed gateway unit time. It might end up all protosses get a zeal then a sentry so that they can put down a quicker second gateway in order to match the number of units pre-change. That brings up another problem of now with a sentry being the norm scouts can stay in protoss base much much longer.
04-22-2011, 07:30 AM
Todie
Re: 4Gate will get fixed in next patch
Quote:
Originally Posted by TychusFindlay
Meh, I don't know. Wouldn't this require people to learn new strategies. Seems like tons of Diamonds are going to be playing like Bronzes for a few weeks afterwards. That's during the summer, soiunds like a good time to level up grind.
... well, they'll have to learn some time!
case in point: i recently played against a P that seemed to ave a quite onesided gateway-heavy approach, looked him up after and saw, though diamond now, he was silver at the end of season one.
not that this proves anything, its just a relevant illustration of how gung-ho gateway aggression can take you quite far quite fast based on what mgiht be a limited skillset.
04-22-2011, 07:53 AM
TheEconomist
Re: 4Gate will get fixed in next patch
Quote:
Ummmmm...it won't affect just Diamonds.
*sigh*
I was making a joke which meant to say a lot of diamonds only know how to play 4gate and, therefore, will now play like bronze because they don't know anything else. I would've made the same joke if Mauraders were nerfed. Doesn't mean anything more than that.
04-22-2011, 08:03 AM
JackhammerIV
Re: 4Gate will get fixed in next patch
Quote:
Originally Posted by TychusFindlay
*sigh*
I was making a joke which meant to say a lot of diamonds only know how to play 4gate and, therefore, will now play like bronze because they don't know anything else. I would've made the same joke if Mauraders were nerfed. Doesn't mean anything more than that.
Oh ok. Well technically you can 4gate your way to masters. So perhaps the joke has to updated.:P
04-22-2011, 08:09 AM
GnaReffotsirk
Re: 4Gate will get fixed in next patch
And yet mules remain untouched. Reduce mule life span please?
04-22-2011, 08:09 AM
Twilice
Re: 4Gate will get fixed in next patch
Technically you can cannon rush your way to grandmasters.
04-22-2011, 08:10 AM
TheEconomist
Re: 4Gate will get fixed in next patch
Quote:
Well technically you can 4gate your way to masters.
Not really. That could be a player's main, but, by that time, they've had to adjust to something that made the 4gate fail at least a few times. Diamond, however, at least in the lower parts, you can DEFINITELY get there on 4gate only.
04-22-2011, 08:35 AM
JackhammerIV
Re: 4Gate will get fixed in next patch
Quote:
Originally Posted by TychusFindlay
Not really. That could be a player's main, but, by that time, they've had to adjust to something that made the 4gate fail at least a few times. Diamond, however, at least in the lower parts, you can DEFINITELY get there on 4gate only.
What's sad is that I think you went and searched for that just to prove me wrong. What's funny though, is that 'not really' obviously means 'not very common'. Hence, a few people are an expected exception.
04-22-2011, 08:58 AM
Gradius
Re: 4Gate will get fixed in next patch
I wouldn't mind the above change, as with faster gateway units I'd have more of a chance vs. Zergling & cannon rushes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TychusFindlay
Not really. That could be a player's main, but, by that time, they've had to adjust to something that made the 4gate fail at least a few times. Diamond, however, at least in the lower parts, you can DEFINITELY get there on 4gate only.
As long as they win more than they lose, they wouldn't have to adjust so much as just spam more games. I think 4-gating to masters is def. possible. You need some sick timings & micro though to make it work. 4-gate isn't that easy to make work at those levels, nor is breaking a ramp in PvP against sentries.
04-22-2011, 09:09 AM
JackhammerIV
Re: 4Gate will get fixed in next patch
Quote:
Originally Posted by TychusFindlay
What's sad is that I think you went and searched for that just to prove me wrong. What's funny though, is that 'not really' obviously means 'not very common'. Hence, a few people are an expected exception.
Actually I remembered it from a few months back. I just google searched to find it again. Still doesn't really matter if you count those "few" as an exception. If every single protoss put in the time and effort to master their 4gate as much as those "few" do you think only a few of them would make it into masters??
EDIT: 4gate is just generally very strong. And most players don't actually train to defend against a strong standard 4gate. Hence why zergs in particular still have some problems with the 4gate.
EDIT: I guess an analogy of a 4gate is a boxer who trains to only throw one punch the entire boxing match. He trains exclusively to rush the opponent at the start and have the most chance of landing that one blow. He trains himself to make that one blow so devestating he will win with it. This kind of boxer will obviously never be the best but he can rise up pretty far.
I find this analogy pretty good because even in PvZ when i 4-gate and mess it up. I feel i'm losing but i just continue on because it's not over yet. Then i suddenly get this small chance where he messes up his micro or lets me snipe an overlord or two. Then BAM zerg dies and starts typing stuff like "I HATE PROTOSS", "F***ING IMBA", "YOU NOOB", etc. The normal ZvP hate. 4-gate is betting on a sort of "one punch KO" and it's surprising how often it works.
04-22-2011, 09:33 AM
Wankey
Re: 4Gate will get fixed in next patch
When are they address the fact that mutas are now pretty much worthless against anyone, I used to use mutas in zvz but now even in zvz I just get infestors which are far more cost effective and with a few good fungals literally obliterates any good muta army.
It's so easy to counter mutas now, get a few turrets / cannons and mineral harass at specific times are over. IMO, mutas have no role in the game unless you have the surprise which, when it costs 100 seconds to build a 200/200 building, I don't think the surprise is there anymore.
04-22-2011, 09:37 AM
JackhammerIV
Re: 4Gate will get fixed in next patch
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wankey
When are they address the fact that mutas are now pretty much worthless against anyone, I used to use mutas in zvz but now even in zvz I just get infestors which are far more cost effective and with a few good fungals literally obliterates any good muta army.
Can still use ling/bling/muta in ZvT. Seems to be falling out of fashion though. Can get them in ZvP to sort of delay the deathball from moving out or forcing protoss to forego deathball.
And mutas aren't meant to be cost-efficient. They're a pure harass mobile unit used to force turtling. But definitely not that good in ZvZ.
04-22-2011, 09:50 AM
TheRabidDeer
Re: 4Gate will get fixed in next patch
I dont get it, there is finally an incredibly good anti-4gate strategy out for PvP and NOW blizzard decides, "hey, lets change 4 warpgate"? Even worse, they claim it is for the sake of PvP...
EDIT: Man, changing the research time of warpgate will effectively destroy most of my FE builds, since I rely on that warpgate being done at that time to hold off pushes, from many different races.
04-22-2011, 10:01 AM
JackhammerIV
Re: 4Gate will get fixed in next patch
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRabidDeer
I dont get it, there is finally an incredibly good anti-4gate strategy out for PvP and NOW blizzard decides, "hey, lets change 4 warpgate"? Even worse, they claim it is for the sake of PvP...
EDIT: Man, changing the research time of warpgate will effectively destroy most of my FE builds, since I rely on that warpgate being done at that time to hold off pushes, from many different races.
Exactly my point rabid. Everyone on TL is focused on 2gate proxy cheese. They don't realise like 3gate expo vs zerg: the timing of warping in 3 sentries after planting expo when you just have 1 zeal and 2 sentries (how will this change??). And etc etc. We protosses are used to a sudden influx of units at around 6 mins to help defend or put on pressure. Now we have to readjust to make it a gradual build up of units that might result in fewer units than through the current warpgate research time.
04-22-2011, 10:28 AM
Todie
Re: 4Gate will get fixed in next patch
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wankey
When are they address the fact that mutas are now pretty much worthless against anyone, I used to use mutas in zvz but now even in zvz I just get infestors which are far more cost effective and with a few good fungals literally obliterates any good muta army.
It's so easy to counter mutas now, get a few turrets / cannons and mineral harass at specific times are over. IMO, mutas have no role in the game unless you have the surprise which, when it costs 100 seconds to build a 200/200 building, I don't think the surprise is there anymore.
mutas are fine. its all about momentum.. they arnt so cost effective in a stand-up fight when there are many units on the ground allowed to take shots at them in peace, but you can work around that; brute-force static defenses with muta numbers and upgrades. cut off reinforcements. force and constrict enemy movement by flying the mutas around, while threatening a flank with ground units.
optimal mutalisk play is volatile and demanding. it can feel risky...
But even if micro and mulitasking lacks to do all this well enough, you can always restict muta use to a reactive tool; use roach/infestor or baneling, and manage to kill a big thor and/or marine force - and/or force lots of tank/marauder/banshee - insantly switch into mass +2 mutas with teh gas of 3base and land some big agression during the windo where he's low on AA.
.. as for ZvZ, Mutas are stronger since last patch, because for such fragile flying fast light units, immobilization-duration of fungal was always much more of a threat than fungal DPS.
... to elaborate on the pending change to the gateway situation: the change implied will above all nerf the tactical flexibility of P opening strategies that rely on 3+ gateways into expand or pressure, i must say i welcome this, even as i try to be impartial.
... i dont think it will significantly swing the momentum against the P's in PvZ for example though, because the reduced build-times for the early gateway units should pose enough of a threat to force some defensive play. at least in closer positions.
04-22-2011, 06:43 PM
Genopath
Re: 4Gate will get fixed in next patch
Moved to strategy forum.
I personally don't like this balance change too much. While it has a minor effect on the rest of the matchups, the DT rush will suffer the most from this change and it will have DT's warping from 6:30 to 6:30+wg research increase.
On the good side P early game has received a slight buff. This might prove interesting to see in team games. Protoss outside proxy and cannon rush, was the weakest race in 2v2s because of the big timing opportunity for a team to pick on one player while the WG research was on the way.
04-22-2011, 06:45 PM
Gradius
Re: 4Gate will get fixed in next patch
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRabidDeer
I dont get it, there is finally an incredibly good anti-4gate strategy out for PvP
What is that out of curiosity.
04-22-2011, 07:12 PM
JackhammerIV
Re: 4Gate will get fixed in next patch
Maybe the 3stalker defense. Or naniwa's 3gate simcity walloff. 3gate with perfect micro and forcefields. Or good old defensive 4gate. Or proxy gate,cannon rush, korean 4gate to force a non 4gate response.
04-22-2011, 07:21 PM
TheRabidDeer
Re: 4Gate will get fixed in next patch
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gradius
What is that out of curiosity.
Its an interesting timing build, 1 gate robo +gate, then you add in a 3rd gate a bit down the line. You should have 2 zealots and an immortal out and 2 more zealots nearly warped in by the time his initial push comes. The common 4gate is pretty all-inish so as long as you defend it you win. The not so common eco 4 gate loses hard to it because you can get a 2nd immortal nearly finished before he pushes. The 3 stalker build is decent too, but its harder since it relies on killing his pylon probe.
04-22-2011, 07:33 PM
Genopath
Re: 4Gate will get fixed in next patch
You can always deviate a little from the traditional 4gate BO but almost always you want to stick with this strategy assuming you scout no shenanigans like proxy gate or proxy cannon. Going for something else is a little impractical and inconvenient as you risk getting overrun by a timing push. Might sound extreme but sometimes one single unit can be the difference between winning and losing in mirror match-ups.
04-22-2011, 10:15 PM
sandwich_bird
Re: 4Gate will get fixed in next patch
I'm glad they are nerfing it. PvP was really getting boring.
I'm still waiting for some kind of buff to zerg though. It's still impossible to engage a 200/200 Toss army as zerg and come out on top thanks to force field + collo + guardian shield + storm + blink + stalker's range. I'm really getting annoyed by this. I always have to go all-in before collo range is done or it's usually auto-lose or base trade...
04-22-2011, 10:51 PM
0mar
Re: 4Gate will get fixed in next patch
trading 4 gate for war of the worlds
still doesn't change the fact that PvP makes me want to blow my brains out
04-22-2011, 11:50 PM
TheRabidDeer
Re: 4Gate will get fixed in next patch
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandwich_bird
I'm glad they are nerfing it. PvP was really getting boring.
I'm still waiting for some kind of buff to zerg though. It's still impossible to engage a 200/200 Toss army as zerg and come out on top thanks to force field + collo + guardian shield + storm + blink + stalker's range. I'm really getting annoyed by this. I always have to go all-in before collo range is done or it's usually auto-lose or base trade...
basically early game defense and macro hard
midgame lings + infestors
late game (when the 200 supply armies come) you have a huge economy and infestor + ling + ultra destroys the "deathball" pretty well. Not to mention the potential baneling/infestor harass is a giant PITA.
04-23-2011, 03:06 AM
JackhammerIV
Re: 4Gate will get fixed in next patch
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRabidDeer
Its an interesting timing build, 1 gate robo +gate, then you add in a 3rd gate a bit down the line. You should have 2 zealots and an immortal out and 2 more zealots nearly warped in by the time his initial push comes. The common 4gate is pretty all-inish so as long as you defend it you win. The not so common eco 4 gate loses hard to it because you can get a 2nd immortal nearly finished before he pushes. The 3 stalker build is decent too, but its harder since it relies on killing his pylon probe.
Sounds like what Day9 was showing on his daily before. Out of curiosity what do you have out at 6mins?? (including things just about to finish) And at 6.26.
@sandwich
Zerg 200/200 army is not really meant to kill a toss 200/200 army. Adding on a ton of queens for transfuse seems to be the deciding factor if you just want a "mass up and kill style". But really zerg should make tons of small attacks everywhere to just kill toss early or delay the 200/200 toss army. Roach attacks. Drops. Nydus. Ling counterattacks. Most zergs really let me mass up too much. Let me do whatever I want. The new zerg styles are like constant harass. Like i think it was Moon using tons of drops in multiple locations. Spanishiwa using nydus and infestors to wreck mineral lines (apparently there's a bug where if you fungal workers there's no alert so the toss might not even know.:( That kinda sucks. Need 2 fungal to kill worker.)
04-23-2011, 03:54 AM
JackhammerIV
Re: 4Gate will get fixed in next patch
@Rabid
Right I've seen a video of it now. It's this i assume....
Despite what the video might lead you to believe it's actually closer than that. the 4gate was kinda failed and not executed perfectly. If i do it well I attack by 6.00-6.05 (technically should be able to be done faster but i haven't perfectly mastered the 4gate yet). Then the pylons warp in and complete to warp in zeals at 6.26-6.30. Plus the 4gates should have 20/22(Depends if you want 1 extra stalker out) probes not 24.
The problem with these new builds is that the opponents that "4gate" aren't doing the best and baddest standard 4gate there is. Like i read it and people say it works etc. Then i try it out and i realise the timing of it means if i don't deny any pylons it means that it would lose to the standard 4gate i've been practicing and using in PvP. It kinda shocks me that diamond and masters protoss mostly do not use the hardest hitting 4gate.
04-23-2011, 09:52 AM
TheRabidDeer
Re: 4Gate will get fixed in next patch
4 zealots and 1 immortal are done at 6 minutes, 2nd immortal finishes at about 6:25
04-23-2011, 10:36 AM
JackhammerIV
Re: 4Gate will get fixed in next patch
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRabidDeer
4 zealots and 1 immortal are done at 6 minutes, 2nd immortal finishes at about 6:25
Seems really really tight. At 6 mins 4gate can hit with 1 zeal 6 stalkers or 2 zeal 5 stalkers. Then 4 more zeals at 6.25ish. MICRO WARS!!!! :p
basically early game defense and macro hard
midgame lings + infestors
late game (when the 200 supply armies come) you have a huge economy and infestor + ling + ultra destroys the "deathball" pretty well. Not to mention the potential baneling/infestor harass is a giant PITA.
Hmmm I'm a bit skeptical about the mid-game lings/infestors but I guess I'll try it out and see what happens.
04-23-2011, 11:18 AM
Gradius
Re: 4Gate will get fixed in next patch
Yeah TRD, I'm not feeling that. It doesn't seem that much better than a 3 gate robo. One warp-gate cycle later and the zealots would crush the immortals (didn't even see sentries in there).
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandwich_bird
I'm still waiting for some kind of buff to zerg though. It's still impossible to engage a 200/200 Toss army as zerg and come out on top thanks to force field + collo + guardian shield + storm + blink + stalker's range. I'm really getting annoyed by this. I always have to go all-in before collo range is done or it's usually auto-lose or base trade...
If you let the toss reach a critical mass, it is indeed your game to lose, but I don't think that's a problem. It's the same if you let a Zerg build up too many mutalisks as toss. It's frickin painful to combat, but you shouldn't have let it happen. Force fields don't really prevent you from putting on pressure either. You've got burrowed roaches, and most importantly, drops, which people never use. A baneling drop has killed me every time I did a 3gate FE. :/
04-23-2011, 05:43 PM
TheRabidDeer
Re: 4Gate will get fixed in next patch
Scratch my old timing, its actually 6 zealots and an immortal at the 6 min mark. About 6:30 is 7-9 zealots and 2 immortals (should be technically 9 zealots since im not losing anything in the replay, so money spent on pylons would actually be zealots). Also, you can instead make 2 zealots and a sentry instead of the third immortal, depending on which 4gate he did... if he did the 1 gas 4gate and you make that sentry you can FF the ramp if he tries to keep coming in and that pretty much ends it right there.
04-23-2011, 06:09 PM
JackhammerIV
Re: 4Gate will get fixed in next patch
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRabidDeer
Scratch my old timing, its actually 6 zealots and an immortal at the 6 min mark. About 6:30 is 7-9 zealots and 2 immortals (should be technically 9 zealots since im not losing anything in the replay, so money spent on pylons would actually be zealots). Also, you can instead make 2 zealots and a sentry instead of the third immortal, depending on which 4gate he did... if he did the 1 gas 4gate and you make that sentry you can FF the ramp if he tries to keep coming in and that pretty much ends it right there.
There's still the warp in vision trick. And stalker outranges immortal. And there's a sweet spot to place pylons to just give enough room for zeal warpin on top of ramp that it's out of range of immortals. Seems like really intense micro wars in the end.:p But would be way ahead compared to defensive 4 gate if you pull off the defense.
04-23-2011, 06:15 PM
TheRabidDeer
Re: 4Gate will get fixed in next patch
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackhammerIV
There's still the warp in vision trick. And stalker outranges immortal. And there's a sweet spot to place pylons to just give enough room for zeal warpin on top of ramp that it's out of range of immortals. Seems like really intense micro wars in the end.:p But would be way ahead compared to defensive 4 gate if you pull off the defense.
They cant warp in stalkers on the high ground (or they would die instantly), and all you need to do is hold the ramp so warping in zealots on high ground isnt too big of a deal. Immortals work surprisingly well against zealots too. If they try to come up the ramp with their stalkers, your immortals will make quick work of them.
04-23-2011, 07:15 PM
Genopath
Re: 4Gate will get fixed in next patch
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gradius
If you let the toss reach a critical mass, it is indeed your game to lose, but I don't think that's a problem. It's the same if you let a Zerg build up too many mutalisks as toss. It's frickin painful to combat, but you shouldn't have let it happen. Force fields don't really prevent you from putting on pressure either. You've got burrowed roaches, and most importantly, drops, which people never use. A baneling drop has killed me every time I did a 3gate FE. :/
