Put the nuke on the Planetary Fortress?

It sounds like a crazy idea, but consider it.

Orbital Command - has mules and sweep, which are very useful and economy oriented.
Planetary Fortress - a more combat oriented building upgrade, which is a nice idea, but is a complete waste if you don't get attacked.
Enter the nuke - which also sees no use, because its easily counterable, and there are many alternatives to it.

Putting the nuke in the PF could do 2 things. It could give you more incentive to tech to PF, and could make the nuke more convenient to get.

Someone will likely find a reason to bash this idea, so bash away. I just had another crazy idea.

Haha interesting, I'll give you that

The SC2 Nuke is not the SC1 Nuke. The SC2 Nuke has already been made far more accessible. This thread is pointless.

I think the nuke is fine where its at, it saw good use of it in a few of the games I played due to its earlier position in the tech tree than sc1, and planetary fortresses are already good (though far less chosen than orbital); I would say the only thing putting nukes on the planetary fortress would do is make them used less as fewer people go for the planetary fortress than for ghost tech at the moment (and now you would need both), planetary fortresses being mainly for highly contested expansions.

So yeah it might make the PF a touch more attractive (I wouldn't bet much more), but it will likely kill the nuke use already present, and it most definitely will not be more conveniant to get though given how you would need ghost tech anyway.

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Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid

The SC2 Nuke is not the SC1 Nuke. The SC2 Nuke has already been made far more accessible. This thread is pointless.

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Well, it's pointless from the angle of the Nuke (which is half of his argument). The other angle is for making the PF more than a one-trick pony, which is a worthwhile discussion.

I'm not sure this is what's needed, but...

What you're suggesting is making the nuke exactly the same as it was in SC1?

Doesn't sound crazy at all to me. I actually like that better, but obviously the SC2 nuke concept would have to be rethought (basically made much closer to the BW version).
The terrans feel a bit too scattered. By being so much more versatile than the other races, that means that for the sake of balance, each of these options will have to be slightly "weaker". I feel like they should make the terrans more focused, and this would be a good start. Bring back the nuke to T3 and have it require a planetary forteress to store the nuke itself (one nuke per PF at a time, like nuke silos).

I really doubt this'll ever happen but who knows... they still seem to be moving stuff around a lot. One thing is for sure though: I'd like for the Nuke to be a very powerful weapon that you don't see in every game, which makes it more unique, and much more exciting for spectators. After all, it is the ultimate "OMG gasp! Will that observer make it there in time??" feature.

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I actually like that better

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Yes, the nuke that was useless is totally better than the nuke that's actually useful. That's a great idea. :rolleyes:

It's a good point to state that the planetary fortress.. being a "one trick pony" has the benefit of making that trick VERY effective.

Damage: 40
Range: 6
Ability to have 7 range

Pros to your suggestion:
You gain more incentive to go PF... if you plan on building nukes.
Higher protection of your nukes

Cons to your suggestion:
- Splinters the tech tree further instead of consolidates it. (To make nukes now, I understand it's barracks, techlab, Ghost Academy, Factory.... this would add Engineering bay and PF to the requirements)
- It significantly increases the cost of a nuke production facility and the time it takes to achieve it. (You can otherwise spam Ghost academies)
- The one trick that the PF does exceptionally would have to be nerfed to counteract this.
- It would reduce the "only trick" that ghost academies get, making them simply a research/requirement building.

Additional notes that are not pros or cons:
- In terms of scouting, the information would be the same... They'd see a ghost academy and a planetary fortress.. I'd assume nukes as potential at the sight of a Ghost Academy to begin with
- Nukes coming out of a "planetary fortress" does feel right in words. It's an interesting concept.
- If you don't plan on going nukes, it provides no extra incentive to build a planetary fortress. This could provide a "forced" feel instead of a natural feel.

Personal opinion
Please understand, I'm more than happy to see ideas, and this one at first glance sounds good. However, I personally think that the nuke needs more improvement from SC1 than the PF requires more ingenuity. Personally, I'd like to consider other abilities or ideas that can be added to the PF.. just don't think Nuke is the best option to consider.

I wouldn't mind the idea of ADDING nukes to the fortress for example... while still allowing nukes to be produced at the ghost academy. While I don't think it would play out well in the end, it's an idea to consider moving on. It would also have balance concerns in certain gameplay matchups I'm sure.

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Originally Posted by Crazy_Jonny

It sounds like a crazy idea, but consider it.

Orbital Command - has mules and sweep, which are very useful and economy oriented.
Planetary Fortress - a more combat oriented building upgrade, which is a nice idea, but is a complete waste if you don't get attacked.
Enter the nuke - which also sees no use, because its easily counterable, and there are many alternatives to it.

Putting the nuke in the PF could do 2 things. It could give you more incentive to tech to PF, and could make the nuke more convenient to get.

Someone will likely find a reason to bash this idea, so bash away. I just had another crazy idea.

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It is a good idea but you need a Ghost academy anyways to make Ghosts at all so it really makes sense to have it there, that along with the fact that the Ghost academy is cheaper and faster to get the a CC and then PF.

they should let you store like 6 scvs inside a planetary fortress. this will make it more of a fortress as if there is a raid or an attack, the scvs can get to safety

I like the building as it is, and the nuke as it is.

Its not a bad idea to look into options with this building, but I feel the advantages it gives already are fine.

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Originally Posted by supersonic

It is a good idea but you need a Ghost academy anyways to make Ghosts at all so it really makes sense to have it there, that along with the fact that the Ghost academy is cheaper and faster to get the a CC and then PF.

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I thought the ghost was tier 2.5 and the CC upgrades were 1.5.

Ghost academy comes right after a Barracks.

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Originally Posted by Pandonetho

Ghost academy comes right after a Barracks.

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Yes but what you don't know is you need a factory just to build the Nuke ;) it's very sneaky and pissed me right off after I realized I didn't need the factory I was making for the Ghost Academy (already at 80%~ complete) and canceled it, only to find I needed it for making the Nuke....

While this is an interesting idea, I think where the nuke is at is good now but the idea of giving the planetary fortress some options too intrigues me. Perhaps the Orbital Command Center would be themed around calling stuff down like the mules and the scanner sweep but then the Planetary Fortress would be themed around enhancing buildings in the base so that they can defend better and such. Maybe move the supply depot upgrade over to the planetary fortress but have it modified a bit. Another ability the planetary fortress could have is an AOE ability for buildings that turns the buildings into sort of bunkers(that already have men inside them) that shoot at enemy units. so heres a little summary of what I'm thinking:

Planetary Fortress - the same as what it is now in terms of stats but it also gets some abilities(or ability)

Ability # 1 - Supply drop - move the OC's ability over to the PF but have it modified, it basically becomes a building enhancing ability rather then just something for the supply depot. It adds additional HP and enlarges the capacity of the building, so for supply depots it gives more supply and for production buildings it gives an extra quo slot or 2.

Ability # 2 - Last ditch defenders - an AOE ability that turns the buildings within its effect into sort of full bunkers(however in terms of production and tech buildings they arnt allowed to be building or teching anything for this to take effect)

Orbital command would get another ability to compensate for the supply one being moved over to the PF (I suppose instead one option could be to leave the supply thing on the OC and just have Ability # 1 be an ability that raises the hp of a building.)

Putting Nuke on the PF is a bad idea, giving the PF a Starport/Fusion Core level upgrade that allows it to fly would be better. Oh, and warrior6, the PF can already hold 5 SCVs as a hang-over from the CC.

Other options that might work are allowing the lasers to target air, and allowing units inside to fire out.

Planetary fortress is pretty pointless unless they make it a lot cheaper.

Planetary fortress is pretty powerful actually. That's all I kept hearing from my friends who played with it at Blizzcon.

Still I don't like it. It's too static and a VERY boring gameplay device.

I'd rather have something like a repair boon that'll repair units when it's close.

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Originally Posted by RODTHEGOD

Orbital command would get another ability to compensate for the supply one being moved over to the PF (I suppose instead one option could be to leave the supply thing on the OC and just have Ability # 1 be an ability that raises the hp of a building.)

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This has got me thinking...

What are the big problems we're trying to solve here?

1. Make the PF more interesting compared to the OC
2. Macro, macro, macro!! More clicks.

I propose...

Calldown Fortifications

The Planetary Fortress calls down a Fortification upgrade onto any structure, boosting its HP by 150 for 75 seconds. If it has less than 150 HP at the end of the timer, the structure blows up (alternately, it stays at whatever HP it has now, but simply loses the +max).

150 mana pool, 50 mana per cast, duration 75 seconds. Mana recharge something like 2 per second, so that every 75 seconds he can recast on 3 choice structures. The process itself should take a couple of seconds, so that a last-second calldown when the building is about to be destroyed is a very risky maneuver, and it's preferable to keep the casts up as macro rather than "heal" the building as micro.

Of course the numbers can be thrown around; the point is, not only is there clicking to be done on the Terran player's part so that macro is increased, not only does the PF have something to offer in terms of competition for the OC's abilities that fits with its over-all theme, but it might actually be a good idea to have more than one PF at a time!

Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by Wankey

Still I don't like it. It's too static and a VERY boring gameplay device.

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I also think it's too static (though I don't think it's any more boring than any of the other defences), which is exactly why I suggested a late-game mobility upgrade.

Been discussing this with Pure over PM, here's what I've come up with in the form of an overall outline.

So here's how I see it going:

Planetary Defense Center
Cost: 150/50 (Upgrades from Command Center)
HP: 2000 (500 extra)
Damage: 20 (AoE, +20 vs. Armored)
Range: 6
Attack Speed: Normal
Energy: 200

Abilities:

Calldown Armor: Drops a temporary iron shell onto a target building, adds 150 HP to the building. Lasts for 75 seconds. Costs 75 energy.
Calldown Bunker: Calls down a bunker at a target location. The bunker works like any other and lasts for 300 seconds. Costs 75 energy.
Calldown Repair-drone: Calls down a repair drone at a target location. Is a drone with the repair ability. Lasts 150 seconds. Costs 50 energy.

Thoughts?

Calldown Bunker: Calls down a bunker at a target location. The bunker works like any other and lasts for 300 seconds. Costs 75 energy.

Thats pretty insane, the other ones I agree with though.


Calling down a building that makes everything inside it not take damage in the middle of the battle is pretty crazy thats like D matrix on 6 stimmed marines

CD Bunker: I actually kinda like that idea. Its simply a structure (no units inside), so if not utilised, its non offensive and no DPS. In a sense it supplements the other insta-drop capabilities (nydus and warp-in), but providing a structure that is nonDPS, yet highly dangerous. It also strike (IMHO) a nice balance between insta-drop and the old drop-pods spell.

Perhaps tweak the temp nature or HP of the structure though. Make it perma, slightly weaker and look different too.
Heck, I reckon Bunkers that sink into the ground (like Depots) would be nice. Do they still attack from the sunk position? yes/no/kinda - STB.

I really don't think the terrans need to be able to call down a bunker since scv's can already build anywhere.
I like the armor drop.
and the repair drone... hmm, I'm not sure about that, I like it but again, the scv kind of already does it.

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Originally Posted by Pandonetho

Planetary fortress is pretty powerful actually. That's all I kept hearing from my friends who played with it at Blizzcon.

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Marines have 40 hp, zerglings have less, Zeolots have around 80. This cannon does 40 SPLASH damage. This is significant and supports this point Panda.

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Originally Posted by pure.Wasted

This has got me thinking...

What are the big problems we're trying to solve here?

1. Make the PF more interesting compared to the OC
2. Macro, macro, macro!! More clicks.

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Before you go on with problems "you want to solve" I think we should broaden the scope and ask "What is the problem this is solving on it's own?"

I feel the issue it solves is the terran lack of base defense that involves supply. At expansions Zerg and Protoss have basic ways to defend them or speed defenses to them. Terrans have to fill bunkers against ground (which takes a significant toll on food over time)

The other point to be made, is that since it's only 1 turret instead of a massable kind, they needed to make it significant. For this reason, adding a bunker calldown would not solve the ORIGINAL problem it was created for.

The creation of a "improve 150 hp for buildings"... the question is how would that work in all facets of the game, early/mid/lategame to do this? I think this would be worth the same micro invested in using the old science vessals D.matrix which was sub par in many ways.

Remember, by doing any of these additions, we would also have to balance it out by reducing the damage of the cannon. Which would weaken the issue it was originally resolving. For that reason, we would need to be able to suggest an option that would be worth while to replace it with?

The Planetary Fortress should be able to call down Marine-filled Drop Pods. The Marines should still cost Minerals and Supply as normal, and it could require Energy and/or have a Cooldown.


About Terran bases, they always were quite a lot resistant to attack, thanks to Siege Tanks and cheap Missile Turrets. Ok, you need to use Supply for base defense, but that's a very tough to beat base defense. Siege Tank range and damage are very high. But don't know exactly how all the game changes will impact them.

I think all the Planetary Fortress really needs is to have Lift Off and maybe the ability to produce Marines. Then, you would have a fairly self sufficient, mobile structure to expand with (most likely from an exhausted expansion site or from the safety of the main base).

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Originally Posted by Norfindel

The Planetary Fortress should be able to call down Marine-filled Drop Pods. They Marines should still cost Minerals and Supply as normal, and it could require Energy and/or have a Cooldown.

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I like that. Its like the opposite to the Mule Drop Pods. If not marines, something along those lines.

Here what I think might be interesting for the PF.

In addition to the drop pods norfindel suggested.

Have it be able to calldown a temporary defensive matrix field in any area with vision.
Just like the ability the Raven used to have, except stronger and moved to the PF.

It would be indiscriminate so if opponents moved into it they would gain the benefits too and would dissipate over time or if it took enough damage. It could be used to support your troops, and it could be used to protect your workers in a mineral line.

Alternatively, a "different" way it could work is like Proton Charge in the sense that once you place it on your guys in an AoE, you have that amount of guys with a damage reduction defensive matrix so that it fits over each unit like a normal D-matrix would, allowing them free movement whereas the other one has the downside of being a stationary field able to be utilized by the enemy as well.

This ability would be powerful and cost a significant amount of energy, maybe 100.

As for calldown marines, I'm not sure whether I think just calling them down without a buildtime (but for the same cost/food) is better or actually having to load units like the old drop pod (allows for diversity).

As for the third ability, another troop supporting AoE I suppose. It would boost all troop movement in an AoE by a certain speed, and it has a limited range (near the PF) unlike the defensive matrix call down. This would greatly enhance overall troop mobility to keep up with Protoss and Zerg mobility like their mutalisks, speedlings, warp-in, speedlots, etc. Or if not that, a similar AoE which increases the range of ranged units for a certain amount of time, because Hell, every single unit in the Terran Arsenal is ranged. This would probably be used quite often to boost your army of infantry, or boost the range of sieged tanks, or boost the range of hellions, vikings, battlecruisers, what have you.

In fact, the OCC should be renamed to Mining Center, and replace the MULEs with a bunch of Dropped SCVs. But Drop Pods should be able to be called near Terran units or buildings only (Pods need a reference for landing point). That would allow you to call SCVs to aid in battle, and help you to macro without the problems of allowing SCVs to be dropped anywhere. That said, a late game upgrade could allow you to drop anywhere.

The Planetary Fortress could allow you to transfer already-built troops inside it, for quick orbital deployment (could be a separate ability, to avoid confusion), and a rally point could be allowed to be set on the PF for easy troop insertion.

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Originally Posted by Pandonetho

Have it be able to calldown a temporary defensive matrix field in any area with vision.
Just like the ability the Raven used to have, except stronger and moved to the PF.

It would be indiscriminate so if opponents moved into it they would gain the benefits too and would dissipate over time or if it took enough damage. It could be used to support your troops, and it could be used to protect your workers in a mineral line.

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That's an interesting idea. The damage it can take is critical to balance, as that would prevent any ranged attack from entering the area, and melee units alone cannot counter everything.

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Originally Posted by RODTHEGOD

I really don't think the terrans need to be able to call down a bunker since scv's can already build anywhere.
I like the armor drop.
and the repair drone... hmm, I'm not sure about that, I like it but again, the scv kind of already does it.

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The SCV can't be dropped anywhere, and doesn't build instantly.

And I'm really against drop-pods filled with marines, that's so insanely overpowered... unless the drop-pod had a really long deployment time.

I mean I think even Bunkers dropping anywhere is pretty overpowered, and they can't even do damage.

well, i think the PF is fine currently... but if you really wanted to add something new to it I would look at the old ghost drop pod ability, still require the ghost, doesn't even need to require research (though it certainly could pending balance and all that), drop pod is easily stopped if ghost is spotted, works just like nuke only without the obvious warning, allow 1 drop pod per PF, load units to be dropped into PF (number of units to be subject to balance, probably around bunker number). Benefit is the more you have the more you could potentially drop at any one point, but if you take the risk the ghosts could die and the units in the droppods could be lost before ever hitting the ground. Would certainly be a good incentive to make multiple PFs as the more you had, the stronger this would be.

On the other hand you could forget all this and just add the ability to lift off the PF, allowing for the possibility of using it for assault when the minerals near it run out, maybe even make it hit air units when lifted

But again, I don't think it really needs anything else, it serves its current purpose very well, and i would not want to see it nerfed from its current status just so that it could accommodate another ability.

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i think the PF is fine currently...

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Really? Under what serious game situations would you ever build one?

The closest I could come up with was a one-base harass-based build that, after you've crippled your opponent's econ with Reapers and Banshees, double-expands. The non-natural expansion would be a PF, due to lack of resources needed to defend it (those resources going into StarPorts and an air-based army). All theorycraft, of course.

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

Really? Under what serious game situations would you ever build one?

The closest I could come up with was a one-base harass-based build that, after you've crippled your opponent's econ with Reapers and Banshees, double-expands. The non-natural expansion would be a PF, due to lack of resources needed to defend it (those resources going into StarPorts and an air-based army). All theorycraft, of course.

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well I think the best spot to make a PF would be the spot on the map that is traversed the most. in most cases its close to the center of the map, but thats not always the case. and i think it would be quite effective if you placed it in the right spot

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

Really? Under what serious game situations would you ever build one?

The closest I could come up with was a one-base harass-based build that, after you've crippled your opponent's econ with Reapers and Banshees, double-expands. The non-natural expansion would be a PF, due to lack of resources needed to defend it (those resources going into StarPorts and an air-based army). All theorycraft, of course.

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Out of curiosity, what do you think about my suggestion bottom of page 1?

D'you think that's moving in the right direction... or maybe not enough of a move?

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

Really? Under what serious game situations would you ever build one?

The closest I could come up with was a one-base harass-based build that, after you've crippled your opponent's econ with Reapers and Banshees, double-expands. The non-natural expansion would be a PF, due to lack of resources needed to defend it (those resources going into StarPorts and an air-based army). All theorycraft, of course.

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When you go after yellow minerals and don't want to spend thousands on Bunkers and infantry to defend against harassment.

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D'you think that's moving in the right direction... or maybe not enough of a move?

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It's not good enough. It's very situational, since it only works on buildings. If the PF is going to compete with the OCC, the PF needs to be able to be more generally useful.

Being able to load Marines and fire them somewhere on the map with Drop Pods wouldn't be a bad idea. But even that requires using Marines. So I don't know.

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When you go after yellow minerals and don't want to spend thousands on Bunkers and infantry to defend against harassment.

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If "thousands" spent on bunkers and infantry can't protect it, the PF certainly isn't getting the job done. It's a strong defensive building, but it isn't that great.

Plus, those "thousands" on bunkers can be reclaimed with Salvage. The Marines can't, but a few Marines can be made useful. A PF will always be nothing more than a PF; if they never attack it, you won't get your money back.

Just a little heads up on the planetary fortress, since I'm scouring all the links around about blizzcon.. it's considered insanely powerful.

A PF with SCVs repairing in one report killed over 40 marines and 10 hellions on it's own. Are we "sure" we need to buff this baby?

What I've heard from quite a few BCgoers is that the PF is extremely useful as a cheap defense for a quick expansion -- using the MULEs from already constructed OCs to supplement resource gathering. There have also been a few who have placed a PF by the ramp entrance to their bases as an effective means of thwarting rushes/attacks.