Supersonic SC2 Q&A

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Originally Posted by Reaper

Thanks man, that's very informative.

Did you try out the Thor? How is it?

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ahh the Thor. The Thor goes great with tanks, because its now mainly a anti air unit, if you can get the gas to produce both in decent numbers, and they have a high hp and fire power. Something I didn't like about the Thor being an anti air unit is it's very susceptible to micro from fast air units, since the Thor shoots off a volley of missiles for 1 attack it's a good idea to micro it to death. It's also slow, and a little too easy to avoid with Mutalisk etc while you abuse other areas of a base, it's also too big and is usually focused on and can go down quick if it doesn't have the right support.

I think they should scale it down, take off a lot of the armor, and call it a Goliath lol, but really it's a good units just need to be scaled a little. I like that it was more anti air and more tougher or a unit than the Goliath was, so it's a nice fit into the Terran mechs.

If anyone has any questions I played some D3 as well, I'm here at work now so I've got lots of time ;P please ask away!

Lucky guy that went to BlizzCon :P

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Originally Posted by The_Blade

Lucky guy that went to BlizzCon :P

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lol yeah it was hella expensive to go, 600+ for plane ticket then 800 for hotel that I split with 4 people.. +food +Bcon ticket

The longer beta takes to come out the more worth it it will become lol =P although I can't wait to play again, but my SC2 thirst have been quenched.. for now...

over 50+ games, 12 hours a day for 2 days is a lot of SC2, once beta comes out though it will be 15+ hours a day and no lines!!

What buildings could be salvaged?

Did you use the high templar slow time thing?

Does siege tank feel allot weaker?

If you could change one thing about this SC2 build what would it be?

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Did you use the high templar slow time thing?

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It has phase-shift again I think. But I'm not sure, that's just what SC2Armory has uploaded.

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Originally Posted by Aldrius

It has phase-shift again I think. But I'm not sure, that's just what SC2Armory has uploaded.

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SC2Armory is always slightly outdated, but 100% reliable for the times it is updated. I'm pretty sure the HT does still have the Time bubble that cuts all enemy speed and attack speed by 50%.

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Originally Posted by supersonic

lol yeah it was hella expensive to go, 600+ for plane ticket then 800 for hotel that I split with 4 people.. +food +Bcon ticket

The longer beta takes to come out the more worth it it will become lol =P although I can't wait to play again, but my SC2 thirst have been quenched.. for now...

over 50+ games, 12 hours a day for 2 days is a lot of SC2, once beta comes out though it will be 15+ hours a day and no lines!!

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wherent there time limits and a long line?

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SC2Armory is always slightly outdated, but 100% reliable for the times it is updated.

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GearvOsh updated it when he got back from Blizzcon. I just don't know if he updated the abilities fully. (He mentions not having energy costs)

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Originally Posted by supersonic

When does this situation ever come into play, there has been about 1 game I've seen that has base swapping and I don't think they had lost their Nexuses for even over 30 seconds. I would say I would wait for up to 1 min for things to be revealed but not more than that, because really if you have lost your main gathering structure for more then a minute you have lost in both econ and overall.

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What if you've BOTH lost your CCs? Or what if the other player hasn't lost his CCs, but has no way of mining (ex. you have a lurker blocking his mining, he has no detection)?
What if you are palying a zerg, who might very well have no way to mine (his hatchery might be at an empty base, an island etc), you might both have no real mining but he's gonna see where all your buildings are, you won't see his.

What if? This mechanic is in War3, and it worked well against people prolonging matches by hiding buildings. Even SC had its fair share of that in non-tourney games, where a player has lost but would prolong the game by hiding a floating engy bay or making a pylon in the boonies.

If it's a match and the player lost their main buildings but are still in the game, then their priority is to get a base back up to prevent the enemy from seeing what they have. It's just another one of the many factors you have to consider, just like how important it is to scout or build detection.

It's just as important as saying what if you didn't have detection and the enemy rushed lurkers/dts.

Honestly I think it will be raised to the 2 minute level, it worked perfectly in warcraft 3.

And yeah I agree with the above

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Originally Posted by Triceron

What if? This mechanic is in War3, and it worked well against people prolonging matches by hiding buildings. Even SC had its fair share of that in non-tourney games, where a player has lost but would prolong the game by hiding a floating engy bay or making a pylon in the boonies.

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They had to implement it in WC3 because of the fact that you have way less units and they are much slower in general.

If you can't find all buildings of the enemy you've already beaten in under a minute, then you must be retarded (not talking about you specifically, but in general) or something. ;;

Just build a bunch of flying units and scout the map with waypoints. T____T

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If it's a match and the player lost their main buildings but are still in the game, then their priority is to get a base back up to prevent the enemy from seeing what they have. It's just another one of the many factors you have to consider, just like how important it is to scout or build detection.

It's just as important as saying what if you didn't have detection and the enemy rushed lurkers/dts.

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So you have to waste money because of some stupid, arbitrary rule instead of actually spending your resources on trying to beat your enemy?

How ridiculous is that?

Building hiding can go on for a very long time without the mechanic...maps are pretty big...telling someone to just scout a 4v4 map with there air units is pretty silly..

No how bout you just make a mechanic(which they did) that once you've lost all of your main Nexus buildings you get revealed to the other guy.

Its fine, and it makes "farm hiding" less annoying...So many times on ICCUP id win a game and have to spend extra time tracking down some probe planting pylons all over the place.

And if you still have a big army, the game isn't over yet because you have a army and you can protect your buildings and with that army hopefully go win.

Most of the time what happens with this mechanic in warcraft 3 is you end up making a new nexus in a hidden location to prevent your buildings from being seen.

Sadly even with this mechanic in people find ways to drag the game out ( try playing 4v4 RT when people are determined to make the game last long)

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Originally Posted by Triceron

What if? This mechanic is in War3, and it worked well against people prolonging matches by hiding buildings. Even SC had its fair share of that in non-tourney games, where a player has lost but would prolong the game by hiding a floating engy bay or making a pylon in the boonies.

If it's a match and the player lost their main buildings but are still in the game, then their priority is to get a base back up to prevent the enemy from seeing what they have. It's just another one of the many factors you have to consider, just like how important it is to scout or build detection.

It's just as important as saying what if you didn't have detection and the enemy rushed lurkers/dts.

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I agree with this here as it adds another layer of dynamics to the game, but lets end it their because it's getting a little off topic and and you guys are only just going back and forth with the same facts. Everyones opinion is different, that doesn't mean the mechanic is right or wrong.

I couldn't care less about some RT 4v4. I only care about 1v1. For all I care, they can implement this for any other game type...

Also, "And if you still have a big army, the game isn't over yet because you have a army and you can protect your buildings and with that army hopefully go win."

The problem is, you're at an additional disadvantage - no intelligence vs. full intelligence building placement wise. That's just unfair. T__T

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Originally Posted by MaybeNextTime

Also, "And if you still have a big army, the game isn't over yet because you have a army and you can protect your buildings and with that army hopefully go win."

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If that's your argument then you shouldn't have to worry because you will be able to fight off w/e and get a Nexus building before 60 seconds is up, and if you have a big army like that and your going for a final push, who cares where your buildings are..

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Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur

What buildings could be salvaged?

Did you use the high templar slow time thing?

Does siege tank feel allot weaker?

If you could change one thing about this SC2 build what would it be?

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Buildings that could be Salvaged: Bunkers, Missile Turrets (pretty sure), Sensor towers, Addons.

Not sure about the time slow as it was already on the Mothership.

the Siege Tank did feel a little weaker Siege mode wise, but only for power, since units grouped better it could take out a like of units. As for the Tank mode I'm pretty sure it was stronger, it felt that way at least.

If I could change one thing I would personally take out the PC, Mule calldown, and Larva spawn. I'm not saying their not good machanics I just think that larva spawn is OP mid-end game, PC is OP early-mid game, and Mule just feels kinda clunky and I'd rather not have to worry about choosing com station or Mule. The game can get a little crazy as in armies can be made in multiple locations and if your not prepared a lot for stuff to happen then you can get wiped out.

I know SC2 is a game about large armies but I think the army size in SC1 was a good amount, maybe a little more would be nice but not as much as SC2 can produce. IMHO I would make it 6 mins per trip, 7 from high yield and 5 from gas. minus the other PC, mule, and larva.

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Originally Posted by The_Blade

wherent there time limits and a long line?

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Yes 20 mins max for a game, but the lines the first day were basically none existent, and for the 2nd day lines were about 15-30 mins.

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Originally Posted by supersonic

If that's your argument then you shouldn't have to worry because you will be able to fight off w/e and get a Nexus building before 60 seconds is up, and if you have a big army like that and your going for a final push, who cares where your buildings are..

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No, it's not. It was a quote...

I was pointing out that one player gets an unfair advantage that way.

I shouldn't be forced to spend my money on a Nexus in a situation where that can potentially cause me to lose a game I could've otherwise won if it wasn't for that arbitrary rule.

If it's not a problem in 1v1 games (and it is not) and kill certain fun aspects of the game, then why keep it?

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Originally Posted by Islandsnake

Building hiding can go on for a very long time without the mechanic...maps are pretty big...telling someone to just scout a 4v4 map with there air units is pretty silly..

No how bout you just make a mechanic(which they did) that once you've lost all of your main Nexus buildings you get revealed to the other guy.

Its fine, and it makes "farm hiding" less annoying...So many times on ICCUP id win a game and have to spend extra time tracking down some probe planting pylons all over the place.

And if you still have a big army, the game isn't over yet because you have a army and you can protect your buildings and with that army hopefully go win.

Most of the time what happens with this mechanic in warcraft 3 is you end up making a new nexus in a hidden location to prevent your buildings from being seen.

Sadly even with this mechanic in people find ways to drag the game out ( try playing 4v4 RT when people are determined to make the game last long)

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Then, as maybenexttime said, implement it for random team games.

I have played maybe... hm 10 000+ games of starcraft? I think probably something like 0.1% of those had someone hiding buildings.

I had something like 500 games played during PGTour season 7, and I think it happened maybe ONCE? Maybe it's a problem at lower levels (but, I don't remember it happening much from when I started playing, and I have played almost a 1000 public hunters or bgh games in the past year, since I stopped playing seriously, and once again it has barely ever happened, and the times it does happen, it's almost always a terran player lifting, which this doesn't really solve).

How about removing this once you reach a certain level (they did have all those bronze, copper, silver, gold etc levels within the ladder, maybe remove it once you hit X level).

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Originally Posted by supersonic

Buildings that could be Salvaged: Bunkers, Missile
Yes 20 mins max for a game, but the lines the first day were basically none existent, and for the 2nd day lines were about 15-30 mins.

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You could also play without time limits in the community tournament area, I had quite a few games there myself, though admittedly the lines were generally longer (30min - 1 and a half hours, though if you went early in the day you could easily get through the line 2-3 times prior to the mass of sc2 players finding it), but it had no time limit and was best 2 out of 3.

Have to agree on the opinion against proton charge, it seemed too powerful and was just busy work really, i didn't mind mule or spawn larva though. Lets see.... things that may not have been covered here... hrm.... zerg extractors were only 25 min... didn't spend too much time with zerg... mothership costs a bit much, never really seemed that useful when i got it... snipe is fun, with full (or near full) energy and some fast clicking just a few ghosts can turn the tide of some early-mid game battles, and I found siege tanks to be about the same.. hrm... ah well i'm sure something else will occur to me eventually...

FA, MNT, my question would be, what does the revealed player actually stand to lose by having his buildings revealed? If the enemy could get well enough into your base to destroy your CC, it's a good bet he knows exactly what sort of units you have (because you're about to attack his base with them in 5 seconds, or you're about to destroy his army with them in 5 seconds), so tech hiding isn't really a problem. So, again, what's at stake here?

Supersonic, I've got a Q. for D3. People said that the quest in Alcarnus is received from an NPC named Asheara... is she or is she not the chick from D2 Act 3, and if so, what's up with her?!?!

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Originally Posted by MaybeNextTime

I couldn't care less about some RT 4v4. I only care about 1v1. For all I care, they can implement this for any other game type...

Also, "And if you still have a big army, the game isn't over yet because you have a army and you can protect your buildings and with that army hopefully go win."

The problem is, you're at an additional disadvantage - no intelligence vs. full intelligence building placement wise. That's just unfair. T__T

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It should be standard across all game types just like its standard on how many probes you start with.

If your in a situation where you somehow lost your main nexus and all your expansion ones...(which is much harder to do in SC2 than war3 where people constantly run into your base and kill off your main building). More than likely your main base is dead, and your ability to make units is gone ( or you would have enough for a nexus) You might have a few hidden buildings and some leftover proxy production buildings left.

Since you cant produce the game is over if you cant end the game with the units you have on the field, them seeing your buildings is fine at this point because ( im assuming 2 minute timer here as i think they will change it to the standard not 30 seconds) you will make your final stand before 2 minutes pass...and if its a base race you would have killed his main buildings off as well.

Now im sure that theirs the slim possibility that there's a exception to the example but I argue the chance of that is less than the chance of a farm hiding moron....now I will say that most of my games with farm hiding took place in battle.net and not ICCUP but remember we will be in the same pool as all the battle.net kids that love to do this kinda stuff. (even high level players in war3 do this kinda annoying thing)

Lastly I think we should end this discussion and start a thread about it, since this seems to be a topic of discussion and is not directly related to this thread.

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Originally Posted by pure.Wasted

Supersonic, I've got a Q. for D3. People said that the quest in Alcarnus is received from an NPC named Asheara... is she or is she not the chick from D2 Act 3, and if so, what's up with her?!?!

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lol I haven't the slightest idea =[

I only really played it to compare the game play to D2, didn't really pay much attention to the story or what not because I thought it was just a demo level?

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Originally Posted by pure.Wasted

FA, MNT, my question would be, what does the revealed player actually stand to lose by having his buildings revealed? If the enemy could get well enough into your base to destroy your CC, it's a good bet he knows exactly what sort of units you have (because you're about to attack his base with them in 5 seconds, or you're about to destroy his army with them in 5 seconds), so tech hiding isn't really a problem. So, again, what's at stake here?

Supersonic, I've got a Q. for D3. People said that the quest in Alcarnus is received from an NPC named Asheara... is she or is she not the chick from D2 Act 3, and if so, what's up with her?!?!

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Let's say it's a PvZ, and you are the protoss. The zerg crackling drops and kills your nex, but you still have remnants of bases left across the map (pretty common situation actually), like pylon+gates, or pylon/cannons.

The zerg has no money/very little money, but because he probably had 10 hatcheries (while you might only have made a total of 2 or 3 nexii all game), he's not gonna be revealed until he's much, much closer to dead than you.

So if it's an elimination race, you'll be blind as to where he built his hidden extractors, or where his last hatcheries are. Meanwhile he can see that probe you ran away to a corner of the map to make a pylon while you hunt for his units.

Another example:

PvT, elimination race. He kills your nexii, but you have gates and pylons left at various places. He lifts his cc.

He's just as dead as you, because he can't mine (let's say all he has left is his main or natural cc, and those are mined out, hell the map could be mined out for all we know, it does happen - in fact, probably more often than someone hiding buildings, at least at higher levels).

You don't get to see any of his shit, he sees all of yours.

And, Islandsnake, while you definitely have more CCs/Nexii/Hatcheries in SC than you do main buildings in WC3, the buildings in WC3 are infinitely more survivable. 8 cracklings kill an undefended nexus in about 10 seconds!

Actually gonna quote it and do some point by point as I think it's interesting:

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Originally Posted by Islandsnake

It should be standard across all game types just like its standard on how many probes you start with.

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Why? You might be right that it's suitable for 4v4 RT, or maybe even low levels of AT/Solo, but very few people are gonna grief at higher levels.

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If your in a situation where you somehow lost your main nexus and all your expansion ones...(which is much harder to do in SC2 than war3 where people constantly run into your base and kill off your main building). More than likely your main base is dead, and your ability to make units is gone ( or you would have enough for a nexus) You might have a few hidden buildings and some leftover proxy production buildings left.

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Not necessarily. In addition to my examples above (ie a terran or a zerg might be equally dead as you even if he has a HQ, he might have no way to mine - no drones, map mined out etc), what if you have lots of money but no way to build a new nexus because you lost all your probes? Unlikely? Yes. Seen it happen? Yeah.

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Since you cant produce the game is over if you cant end the game with the units you have on the field, them seeing your buildings is fine at this point because ( im assuming 2 minute timer here as i think they will change it to the standard not 30 seconds) you will make your final stand before 2 minutes pass...and if its a base race you would have killed his main buildings off as well.

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See above, he might not be able to produce either but may not be revealed due to floating CC/abundance of hatcheries compared to CCs/Nexii.

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Now im sure that theirs the slim possibility that there's a exception to the example but I argue the chance of that is less than the chance of a farm hiding moron....now I will say that most of my games with farm hiding took place in battle.net and not ICCUP but remember we will be in the same pool as all the battle.net kids that love to do this kinda stuff. (even high level players in war3 do this kinda annoying thing)

Lastly I think we should end this discussion and start a thread about it, since this seems to be a topic of discussion and is not directly related to this thread.

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I think farm hinding in high tier solo is going to be rare, and when it happens you will likely quickly find it due to maps not being that big (don't think this contradicts my earlier points).

And I guess taking it to a new thread isn't too bad of an idea, didn't see that line until now :P

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Originally Posted by supersonic

lol I haven't the slightest idea =[

I only really played it to compare the game play to D2, didn't really pay much attention to the story or what not because I thought it was just a demo level?

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Ha, thought so. Was worth a shot, though! :)

INC D3 barrage.

Q1: if I understand the Monk correctly, you can mix-and-match abilities to get Attack1-X1, Attack2-Y2, and Attack3-X3, for example. However, the five-second Heart move's lackluster stage 1 and 2 were noted as being disadvantages for the 3rd stage's power, because they are relatively weaker. Can't I just do A1-NonHeartMove1, A2-NonHeartMove2, A3-Heart3, to get only the best out of it? If so, do you think this is meant to draw a distinct line between the real newbs and those that put some thought into what they're doing?

Q2: if you had to rank the classes in terms of how much punishment they can take without any defensive moves, how would it go? Barb>Monk>WD>Wiz? Does the Barb leave the other three as far behind as the Monk's panel made it seem?

Q3: How well does the equipment change up game work, visually? In WoW it's not such a big problem because most gear works for most races/classes interchangeably, but here, they have to model everything (except weapons?) separately by class and sex. How common was it to find an item that was an improvement, and how often did these improvements change your appearance? Were the changes minor, or fairly significant? Take the Monk specifically, his appearance seems to be so... "set in stone" (because he doesn't use heavy armor) that I can't imagine how he replaces it.

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Originally Posted by FrozenArbiter

And, Islandsnake, while you definitely have more CCs/Nexii/Hatcheries in SC than you do main buildings in WC3, the buildings in WC3 are infinitely more survivable. 8 cracklings kill an undefended nexus in about 10 seconds!

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Its comparable since in war3 you don't have the luxury of having a million units and a ramp to easily defend. (Or turrets up to defend drops...though drops are much more rare)

I've won alot of my games as orc by running into a base and surrounding there main building with raiders and watching it die...and TPing out saving my entire army. Though that's mostly a elf weakness it happens to the other races from time to time...I don't see this making my post wrong. I guess we just dont agree on the chances of the mechanic getting in the way of winning a game ( as seen by the end of my last post) which is guess is fine since people rarely agree on fourms ;d


EDIT just saw ure EDIT READING T_T

Hehe, I dunno if you saw the game, but Lyn vs Grubby G2 (I think it was G2, from blizzcon) ended with a main kill -> TP :)

Oh and Nicolas Bolas made a new thread here, incase you want to respond there instead:
http://sclegacy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1263

post in new thread.

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Originally Posted by pure.Wasted

Ha, thought so. Was worth a shot, though! :)

INC D3 barrage.

Q1: if I understand the Monk correctly, you can mix-and-match abilities to get Attack1-X1, Attack2-Y2, and Attack3-X3, for example. However, the five-second Heart move's lackluster stage 1 and 2 were noted as being disadvantages for the 3rd stage's power, because they are relatively weaker. Can't I just do A1-NonHeartMove1, A2-NonHeartMove2, A3-Heart3, to get only the best out of it? If so, do you think this is meant to draw a distinct line between the real newbs and those that put some thought into what they're doing?

Q2: if you had to rank the classes in terms of how much punishment they can take without any defensive moves, how would it go? Barb>Monk>WD>Wiz? Does the Barb leave the other three as far behind as the Monk's panel made it seem?

Q3: How well does the equipment change up game work, visually? In WoW it's not such a big problem because most gear works for most races/classes interchangeably, but here, they have to model everything (except weapons?) separately by class and sex. How common was it to find an item that was an improvement, and how often did these improvements change your appearance? Were the changes minor, or fairly significant? Take the Monk specifically, his appearance seems to be so... "set in stone" (because he doesn't use heavy armor) that I can't imagine how he replaces it.

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A1: Not 100% sure as I was not the one playing the Monk when I played with 3 other people.

A2: I would say that your idea for taking hits is just about right. The monk did seem to take hits well but not as good as the barbarian did, and the Wiz and WD can get crushed if your not careful.

A3: I would imagine that the gear will be get up a lot like WoW's gear idea, not at in specific tier sets but that each class with have specific gear for them that changes the way they look geared toward their own style depending on the class. That's at least how it looked for me, and for finding new gear that was an improvement it only took about 10 kills in to find a belt that was better than the one I had on.

Remember though what I played for most likely a demo, and D3 will probably not be coming out until 2011, when Blizzard talked about 2 games coming out for 2010 I am 98% sure they mean SC2 and the new WoW expansion because they are aiming for the same release time as WotLK. D3 is also still in alpha stage, and some of the things such as integrating battle.net are not even started yet, they still have a long way to go.

I moved the post to the other thread.

post in new thread

If anyone has more questions don't hesitate to ask =]

Can you do some battle reports for us? :)


Or some interesting things that happend, it would help me think of more questions

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Originally Posted by supersonic

If anyone has more questions don't hesitate to ask =]

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Ill reask these here since they kinda got lost in the end game vision debate

What buildings could be salvaged?

Did you use the high templar slow time thing?

Does siege tank feel allot weaker?

If you could change one thing about this SC2 build what would it be?

Is pure Terran Mech dead?

Are vikings any good?

Do Infestors still "spawn" infested terrans? Do they still move like string-puppets?

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Originally Posted by supersonic

Buildings that could be Salvaged: Bunkers, Missile Turrets (pretty sure), Sensor towers, Addons.

Not sure about the time slow as it was already on the Mothership.

the Siege Tank did feel a little weaker Siege mode wise, but only for power, since units grouped better it could take out a like of units. As for the Tank mode I'm pretty sure it was stronger, it felt that way at least.

If I could change one thing I would personally take out the PC, Mule calldown, and Larva spawn. I'm not saying their not good machanics I just think that larva spawn is OP mid-end game, PC is OP early-mid game, and Mule just feels kinda clunky and I'd rather not have to worry about choosing com station or Mule. The game can get a little crazy as in armies can be made in multiple locations and if your not prepared a lot for stuff to happen then you can get wiped out.

I know SC2 is a game about large armies but I think the army size in SC1 was a good amount, maybe a little more would be nice but not as much as SC2 can produce. IMHO I would make it 6 mins per trip, 7 from high yield and 5 from gas. minus the other PC, mule, and larva.

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From a couple pages back

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Originally Posted by FrozenArbiter

Is pure Terran Mech dead?

Are vikings any good?

Do Infestors still "spawn" infested terrans? Do they still move like string-puppets?

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Terran Mech builds are stronger than ever with the Thor helping with anti air, tanks are only a little weaker than before but still very usable.

Vikings have mad AtA range and are very strong, as for GtG combat I didn't see them get much action there because other units did a better job there.

Infestors still "spawn" infested Terrans from the eggs they shoot, and no it doesn't bother me I thought the mechanic is just fine, and as far as I could tell they moved and looked the same, although they are super weak and die easily, they are great meat shields.

Thanks supersonic

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Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur

Thanks supersonic

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anytime, if you think of some later just come back and ask =]