The ladder is going to be a very different place for Season 2

Todie, we're pretty much on the same page. I was merely bringing up an example for discussion. While I did give some thought into it, it wasn't fully interpretation in that case.

Us being in same mindset isn't new, still semi reassuring :)

Well I posted about getting a better look at our stats on the starcraft 2 website in the multiplayer forum. I'm not making the same points as you are todie but I think what you're saying is important and I'd like you to add to my post there with what you want to see amended on the ladder. Here's the link.

I just got placed, Diamond. upon placement, it struck me that the message actually said i was placed in a league AND A DIVISION, based on my performance, implying divisions are indeed homogenized by MMR... tehre is no veryfying this though; i can check players rating and ranking from seaon1 but it takes about a minute per player to check and there is no information on unspent bonuspool, so ratings arnt comparable..

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Originally Posted by SinsWage

Well I posted about getting a better look at our stats on the starcraft 2 website in the multiplayer forum. I'm not making the same points as you are todie but I think what you're saying is important and I'd like you to add to my post there with what you want to see amended on the ladder. Here's the link.

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Oh the irony. you see, European players cant post or even upvote good comments on the NA boards.

this is why i dont even browse Bnet official forums; any discussion worth having is worth having in an environment where people across the Atlantic can post too...

ill read it later, maybe i or someone else will quote and coment it on EU forums.. if that yields any quality dicussion, you might quote it in the NA thread, etc.. really, his type of dedication to communication through the official channels is the best way to prove how epicly ridiculous the cross regional board split is.

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Originally Posted by Todie

Oh the irony. you see, European players cant post or even upvote good comments on the NA boards.

this is why i dont even brose Bnet official forums; any discussion worth having is worth having in an environment where people across the Atlantic can post too...

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Wow, that sucks.

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Originally Posted by Todie

I just got placed, Diamond. upon placement, it struck me that the message actually said i was placed in a league AND A DIVISION, based on my performance, implying divisions are indeed homogenized by MMR... tehre is no veryfying this though; i can check players rating and ranking from seaon1 but it takes about a minute per player to check and there is no information on unspent bonuspool, so ratings arnt comparable..

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Ummmmmm todie......did you not know that?? I said it like a few previous posts ago. Basically people in the same division were put there cos they all have a similar MMR. Then they give the whole division a division modifier. The TL thread talks a bit about it. Here's the section on it

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Division Tiers
When you are placed in a league, you are placed into a division within that league. That division consists of up to 100 players who are intended to be roughly the same skill level as of the time of placement.

However, because the ladder population is broken down into quintiles (with the exception of Master league which siphons a percentage from Diamond), certain leagues encompass a broader range of skill than others. For example, a player who is ranked in the top 5% may be vastly better than a player who is ranked in the top 15%, and a player in the bottom 15% may be far better than a player in the bottom 5%. This means that divisions are not always equal in each league, which means the points earned in each division cannot always be directly compared with points in other divisions.

Grandmaster: One Tier
Master: One Tier
Diamond: 7 Tiers
- Tier 1: +150 from Master
- Tier 2: +213 from Master
- Tier 3: +276 from Master
- Tier 4: +339 from Master
- Tier 5: +402 from Master
- Tier 6: +465 from Master
- Tier 7: +528 from Master
Platinum: 3 Tiers, unknown offset
Gold: 2 Tiers, unknown offset
Silver: 3 Tiers, unknown offset per tier
Bronze: 6 Tiers, unknown point offset per tier

These tiers can be thought of as "slices" of a league, and in order to properly place a player into a new league, the player's moving average must stabilize within one of the slices. This also means that at any given time, there are six developing Bronze divisions, compared to Master league which generates divisions one at a time.

Note that without a global reference point such as the Blizzard weekly Top 200 list, where these division modifiers are removed, it may not be possible to determine your division's tier.

When you are moved from one league to another, your score is reset to 73 + the amount of bonus pool you have spent so far.

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Each division has a modifier. Some divisions are better than others. So just generically saying 2000 Diamond doesn't have much meaning since you don't know your division modifier. After division modifier rating adjustment you could actually be higher or lower. If you're in a hard division it's bumped up but in an "easy" division it's bumped down.

Then the problem arises of you're put into that division after blizzard is sort of sure that's where your skill is AT THAT MOMENT. Maybe like tier 3. But then you keep playing and improve and should be in tier 1 now but it won't change your division so it'll keep saying you are a tier 3 player in your league. If you knew the division modifier you could adjust your rating to what it should be but this is hidden as well.

To summarise: No one knows what tiered division they are in within their league. It could be a higher tier or a lower tier and there's no clear way to know it (hence my suggestion of name of division correlating to tiers which is not the case in blizzard's current system). People in higher tiers are considered better than those in lower tiers. This can explain why some diamond players can be playing and winning a lot but not getting to masters because like they only improved from like tier 3 to tier 2 in diamond.

EDIT: Like in the quote above Tier 1-2 would be high diamond. Tier 3-5 mid diamond. Tier 6-7 low diamond. That's generically. If Blizzard allowed for movement between divisions the tiering could work that way. But since it assigns divisions AT THAT MOMENT the true rating will differ from the tier rating.

oh, hrm.. now I see what you're talking about Todie. If I remember correctly regarding the panel at Blizzcon recently, divisions are "loosely" based on your skill. I use the term loosely... VERY loosely. The basic jist is that your division is "around" your level.

Let's use an example of what I understand.

Let's say that in fake league Sapphire there are 20 people who are placed overall. It just so happens that at this time there are 24 divisions created. Many of which are full. To illustrate I'll use the following visual:

OpenSlots - Full with 100 - No division created yet.

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A - Hidden Ranking: 00 - 100
B - Hidden Ranking: 00 - 100
C - Hidden Ranking: 00 - 100
D - Hidden Ranking: 00 - 100
E - Hidden Ranking: 00 - 100

F - Hidden Ranking: 100 - 200
G - Hidden Ranking: 200 - 300
H - Hidden Ranking: 300 - 400

I - Hidden Ranking: 400 - 500
J - Hidden Ranking: 400 - 500
K - Hidden Ranking: 500 - 600
L - Hidden Ranking: 600 - 700
M - Hidden Ranking: 700 - 800
N - Hidden Ranking: 700 - 800
O - Hidden Ranking: 700 - 800

P - Hidden Ranking: 800 - 900
Q - Hidden Ranking: 900 - 1000
R - Hidden Ranking: 1000 - 1100
S - Hidden Ranking: 1100 - 1200
T - Hidden Ranking: 1200 - 1300
U - Hidden Ranking: 1200 - 1300
V - Hidden Ranking: 1200 - 1300
W - Hidden Ranking: 1200 - 1300
X - Hidden Ranking: 1200 - 1300
Y - Hidden Ranking: 1200 - 1300
Z - Hidden Ranking: 1200 - 1300

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Yes, I know it's incredibly simplistic, and the "hidden rating" that our skill is figured out by is what's in this... but from what I understand.. after your placement matches you are placed in a division of people "semi near" your available placement. So since a lot of people, over 600+ people managed to get 1200-1300 in this case, it put them in divisions T through Z and not with Divisions A through F. This way it tries to put you in a division that's of people "near" your skill and would fit in the theory.

To make this further realistic I could have spent the time to put the ratings in a more realistic fashion, such as ranges like 915-966 and another league that happens to have ranges like 944-1001. But I didn't want to put the effort into it. This explains why if you place in a division as one of the first in it, it won't fill up literally seconds afterwards and can take 1-2 days.

One fact that I'd be willing to consider is that more than 100 bronze 2v2 teams place in a 24 hour period.. every day. The last 2v2 I started with a friend took 4 days to fill the division, we were the 2nd one in it. If it was simply "fill the newest available division (One at a time) then it would have been filled within 12 hours.. I highly suspect.

This is information I inferred from the Blizzcon panel regarding b.net this year. My understanding may be flawed or misunderstood... and if that turns out to be the case I apologize prematurely.

That's basically it Gifted from what people have compiled and learned about how Blizzard places someone in a division. That's what our understanding is of how it works and Blizzard hasn't disproved it with any of their panels but sort of reinforced it.

The list you put would be like maybe A-C highest skill and W-Z lowest skill. Depends how many tiers they make and their assumptions about the distribution of skill in a league.

The TL thread suggestion is 7 tiers for diamond etc etc. But this isn't confirmed (I see no proof for believing that's the total number of tiers) but that's the basic idea.

The problem is they don't tell us the division tier (basically the division modifier) for each division. So the system i want is basically your alphabetical one gifted. BUT in greek alphabet.

e.g. Alpha to Delta is Tier 1. ...... Phi to Omega is the last tier (Tier 7 or etc).

EDIT: This is just wishful thinking though. Doubt Blizzard would implement something so convenient for players to know who is better or worse.

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Ummmmmm todie......did you not know that?? I said it like a few previous posts ago. Basically people in the same division were put there cos they all have a similar MMR. Then they give the whole division a division modifier. The TL thread talks a bit about it. Here's the section on it

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i wasnt 100% convinced and also as i've said before, placment upon demotion/promotion or initial placment after the 5 placments doesnt give any acurate gauge of a players MMR, compared to the stabilized MMR's upon reset.

i was like "that may be so, but it hasnt been significant until now"

I see a good reason not to give any clue about the distribution of divisions. Then all of the sudden people will believe that they shouldn't only be promoted by league, but by teir. I think that could harm the mentality of the average gamer based on this system. I will admit, this system isn't built for the "competitive hardcore" but that's where the compromise of Master/Grandmaster came about. For people less than that, it's a system that can benefit from the naivety of it's players.

I will never get this ranking system and I don't care :D the whole placement thing don't make sense to me at all you can win and still get placed in the Bronze league....... or you can win and get place in the diamond league..........? in 4v4 my friends and I got placed in Bronze for winning and in 2v2 1v1 we got place platinum and Diamond.......................?

Hmmm, yes. Very strange. It's almost like winning isn't the only factor. But, that would be madness.

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Originally Posted by Snoopy007

I will never get this ranking system and I don't care :D the whole placement thing don't make sense to me at all you can win and still get placed in the Bronze league....... or you can win and get place in the diamond league..........? in 4v4 my friends and I got placed in Bronze for winning and in 2v2 1v1 we got place platinum and Diamond.......................?

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the "placement thing" keeps track on how good calibre palyers you've beeten in the past, as a team, and individually (keeps seperate tracks of this)

upon new plamcent on reset, win or loss in these new single palcement games barely matters. its just to weed ouit the inactives.