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What do you think about the changes?
Is the removal of protoss amulet too much, has blizzard lost its mind or has Dustin had an epiphany and is making the perfect moves?
Can terran beat protoss late game, can zerg own T&P? Show your noob knowledge here and discuss!
Getting better :D But, why not just ask: what is your opinion on [insert change] instead of what you've been doing.
Back on-topic, I haven't melee since the patch so I can't comment.
I'm wondering if it was necessary to do away with the whole thing (?) Why dont they just make the upgrade increase the total amount of energy (like 1 or 2 more storms per max mana) instead of starting energy?
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Psi storm may be a tad powerful in late game, where a protoss can warp in ~8 templar and storm just like that. However, in my opinion protoss needs all the incentives it can get to not go robotics bay. Right now 4-gate and 3-gate robo are the only things I see protoss players doing (of course there are some people who are more creative, but the vast majority use these two solid, powerful builds). Protoss air is a joke and without the amulet templar tech becomes a lot harder. Why don't they leave this relatively small problem and focus on the stagnating of protoss play?
Watching the GSL. Feel really sorry for the Zerg right now. Even the pros are falling behind, and people are out-playing Zerg at that level with micro and sensability.
Zerg needs creep spread, many units and a good surround to take on large bioballs or protoss deathballs (Stalker-heavy mix with optional sentry, colossus, immortal, archon and zealots). Marines are very difficult to counter, having Zerg rely on more questionable and counterable tactics such as mass baneling (countered with marine micro or retreating behind tank lines) or Fungal Growth (countered with siege tanks or Ghost EMP). Zerg don't have the potency to create a deathball, and must rely on attrition tactics and map dominance.
Also what I think Zerg really needs is stronger base defense. Terrans can kill off a hatch with a dropship full of marines. No amount of Zerglings or Hydras will take down a Planetary Fortress that's being repaired by all SCVs. I think Zerg could really use a boost somewhere, somehow. It seems very difficult to break a lot of late-game macro games against Protoss or Terran, and I've seen games where Terran on 3 base vs Zerg with whole map will end with a Terran victory. Mules and PF's control expansions way better than hatch + Queen/sunkens.
At least with the patch changes, using HT for base defense will not be as potent, and drops are easier to pull off. I don't know how much the Stim research timing will affect marines, but any nerf to them right now is a good thing IMO. They're just so damned potent.
I completely agree. Zerg are completely lacking in new units compared to toss and terran, as well as lacking in new abilities (warp in, dropships that heal, stim for marauders).Quote:
Originally Posted by Triceron
Not to mention, hydras are arguably useless without a freaking speed upgrade! Seriously, this seems like the easiest upgrade to implement for balance issues. If ladder and professional play continues to incorporate larger maps, hydras will become less and less useful. If need be, make it much more expensive than in SC1, or require a hive, or an infestation pit.
Otherwise, I seriously don't understand why they were given the shaft on speed upgrade in SC2 when every other ground combat unit has it (roaches, lings, and banelings) except for ultras. I honestly think Blizz was worried roaches wouldn't be used much if hydras could be just as fast, but if that's the case, then it should be obvious they still serve different roles. I would never mass hydras against collosi as opposed to roaches, etc...
The way they did the amulet was just crazy. It's slow to tech to and expensive and now it has another problem with it. If the problem was just insta storms then there's a lot of other ways to address it.
Zerg really needs quite a bit of love. Perhaps Blizzard can increase the hp of hatchery and nexus again.:P That was the most indirect balance change I can remember. "Oh having trouble with drops. Don't worry here's some more hp on your buildings."
What people need to remember is a change in ptr is sometimes simply to gather contrasting data. Remember the bunker build time thing from before? They stated in the patch notes that this change would NOT go live. They put it in there for some testing purpose. Some changes currently may be for that. Sure, stuff like the no air FG was just a bad idea, but there's no telling what is intended to actually balance vs. what is intended to gather data in certain situations.
On to Zerg balance. I think queen transfusing while burrowed would be a great boon to Zerg defense. Just a thought.
Transfusion should get a boost i agree with you. The purpose of the queen is to always inject larva or always spread creep, i.e. never having more than 25-30 energy on it. If you need a transfusion NOW, you can't use the energy for your next inject larva, you can wait 20 more second and let you crawler die. I think transfusion at 25 energy, like inject larva and creep tumor, can be a potent buff for defence. Even getting 2 queen at expo and mass transfuse crawler like scv do with PF.Quote:
Originally Posted by SinsWage
About the amulet i still don't know. Seems overkill nerf to me...
I think not good but god damn it we need 2 test before start bitching about it!^^
I'm feeling that Blizz is testing a few things and very little of this will make the cut.
What I like:
Toss:
Zealot charge buff - Excellent.
Terran:
Bunker time increase - Good for Zerg. Negligible for Toss.
Zerg:
Infestor health and FG damage increase. - Nice.
What I don't like:
Toss:
Amulet removal - Farewell HT harass.
Terran:
Battlecruiser speed buff - A tough to kill capital unit that can now have a chance to escape? I thought slow movement was a punishment for poor planning. What's next, give everything crackling speed?
Zerg:
FG stun duration nerf - unless the stun now also prevents the affected units from firing as well as moving, this is too much and unnecessary as the Zerg have little else that can get a late game biotech terran build w/o mass broodlords/corruptors
What I'm "meh" on:
Toss:
MS Vortex change/nerf - given how rare and hard to micro these are, shouldn't we be doing something to idk, make them better?
Terran:
Stim research time nerf - a virtual non-factor in the grand scheme of things considering the penchant for the Teenage Mutant Terran Turtles.
I like the changes shows blizzard is improving the game. I agree with everything even though i don't like everything thats going to change.
What? Easily one of the most confusing and conflicted posts I've ever read. Do you like the changes or not? I can't tell.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikill
Let me translate:
1) Patching shows Blizzard is working hard to improve the game.
2) It may be balanced but he still doesn't like the change.
For example, regardless of balance, I don't like them removing amulet. Even if it it improved balance, I am still resistent to the change. But, I'll get over it.
I like almost all of the changes. I still think that they will do something about Amulet upgrade, I think it can't go like this untouched.
What I really don't like is Infestor's Fungal Growth now has an projectile. I was "well ok" at first, because I thought the speed will be like it was in beta, pretty fast, and then I saw video of the new Fungal Growth Projectile, and it was terribly slow, you can just stim marines and avoid it, a lot easier than avoiding storms...
Dont worry about us zergs, i bet we get something nice and juicy in the expansion *Sarcasm*
Well, I can say that without Sarcasm, we will get something for sure, and I can't wait to see it! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Duckyyy
How it should be:Quote:
PROTOSS
Mothership
Units leaving the Mothership's Vortex are now un-targetable and immune to damage for 1.5 seconds.
High Templar
Khaydarin Amulet upgrade (+25 starting energy) has been removed.
Zealot
Charging Zealots will now hit fleeing targets at least once.
TERRAN
Battlecruiser
Movement speed increased from 1.406 to 1.875.
Bunker
Build time increased from 35 to 40 seconds.
Tech Lab
Stimpack upgrade research time increased from 140 to 170 seconds.
ZERG
Infestor
Health increased from 90 to 110.
Fungal Growth
Stun duration decreased from 8 to 4 seconds.
Damage increased by +30% vs. armored units.
Now fires a missile instead of being instant cast.
- Units inside the vortex are immune to damage for the duration of the vortex and vortex end spreads the units at a larger radius.
- Khaydarin Amulet upgrade now increases the max energy by 100.
the rest of the changes I agree with.
What would that solve exactly?Quote:
Originally Posted by dustinbrowder
Actually, was thinking this myself. Its similar to how the original SC1 upgrade worked; while you lose the ability to storm right out of warp-in, HTs get more storms/feedback when at full energy - I think its a better alternative to just throwing out the whole upgrade.Quote:
Khaydarin Amulet upgrade now increases the max energy by 100.
Maybe not 100 energy tho...
Yay, more energy to not charge before you get EMP'd and lose it all!
Sci Vessels had emp - what did everybody do then? :)
I love it when people compare SC2 to SCBW without spending even the fraction of a second necessary to think their statement through.
Ghosts are cloakable, cheap, easy-to-get, and can hide in an army well past the time needed to get all the EMP out.
Not at all the same thing.
There were different tactics / advantages in dealing with the same threat - in SC1 - Sci Vessels had speed as an advantage.
In SC2 - Feedback/storm is as available a tactic as emp is for ghosts.....if it wasn't, the forum would be full of, "EMP is OP" discussions.
Point is, why do away with the whole spell when it could be tweaked? - if they felt it was too strong, they could have gone back to the original sc1 upgrade; or they could have lowered the amount of starting energy to keep from being able to storm out of the gate.
They could have done a lot of things, but they chose to dump it altogether which makes no sense.
Not the same thing. You can easily kill a Vessel before it gets an EMP off, especially if your High Templars are behind your units.Quote:
Originally Posted by Caliban113
Not really. But there's plenty of other tactics.Quote:
Feedback/storm is as available a tactic as emp is for ghosts
Maybe. But I was joking, leave it at that.Quote:
They could have done a lot of things, but they chose to dump it altogether which makes no sense.
Pretty sure that Terran were playing Mech(Tanks, Goliaths and Vultures) back then, and that Sci Vessels weren't at all necessary...Quote:
Originally Posted by Caliban113
Storms killed Tanks.
It did if you didn't know how to position your Tanks... And don't link me Jangbi's Thunderstorm, since there weren't many people that knew to control army that good. And Storm isn't even close to effective vs. Tanks as it is vs. Biological army.Quote:
Originally Posted by TychusFindlay
This patch was very very bad.
Stupid bad even.
The only redeeming things are the replay function additions for casters, the increase to bunker build time as well as the stim research nerf, and the charge upgrade behavior on zealots.
- Fungal Growth change looks awful.
- And, someone at Blizzard needs to be fired (j/k) over wanting to remove KA instead of a nerf.
Oh, and not to mention in patch 1.2.1, the addition of the new maps to replace Shakuras and LT while keeping DQ (wtf?) is insanely stupid...
I think Blizzard needs to re-think their stance on balance instead of just making arbitrary changes, because everyone on the PTR were disgusted by the test maps, and told Blizzard so, but the maps got released without changes... WTF: Slag Pits is just a piece of crap map... no easy 3rd base, and they call it the replacement to Metalopolis or Shakuras Plateau for "macro games"?
Give me a break... Blizzard seems to have forgotten that not ALL of their fans are dumb 10 yr olds (no offense to them).
I'd be curious to know how many protoss think EMP is too strong.:PQuote:
Originally Posted by Caliban113
All of them, at the lower levels from Diamond.Quote:
Originally Posted by JackhammerIV
I'll see if can drum up some matches from Cholera's old YT site - I've seen tons of great matches with T mass emp'ing the bejeezus out of P to huge effect.Quote:
Pretty sure that Terran were playing Mech(Tanks, Goliaths and Vultures) back then, and that Sci Vessels weren't at all necessary...
Actually, yes, I'd like to hear as well -- to me, the matchup seems kind of even (just based on games I've seen) Also, if they think an increased mana capacity upgrade would be a help or not (given starting energy upgrade gets removed)Quote:
I'd be curious to know how many protoss think EMP is too strong.:P
..
Hi there Caliban113!Quote:
Originally Posted by Caliban113
I agree with what you say, they could have tweaked the skill.
Instead of scrapping Khaydarin Amulet, they could have made it like in SCBW, increase max energy to 250.
I can imagine other creative ways to change/tweak the skill instead of ditching it out!
For example I think something more interesting could have been: increase the charging rate by a little percentage like 10%, so HT's energy charges 10% faster! Or something along those lines. Or whatever, why scrap it all along?
They cost the same amount of gas and an extra 100 minerals... Cloak is a research skill. Cloak reduces the opportunity to EMP. You can't EMP right off the bat unless you have the reactor upgrade. If you were referring them to as "cheap" as imbal...they're virtually useless against Zerg unless they feel the urge to go mass infestors. They are way too soft/expensive to just mass and go guns ablazing.Quote:
Originally Posted by TychusFindlay
EMP Doesn't do damage. Psi storm does damage. A ghost without energy is as useful as a marine in late game. Depleted High templars can at least merge into archons.
Definitely not at all the same thing.
I realize your point was to address BW ---> SC2, but your points on the ghost are not really that great. EMP is sort of useless if my entire bioball is Psi-stormed to death. You can just blink those stalkers back and recharge shields. My marines are psionic toast.
1) If you get stormed to death (even with mass Marines) and have EMPs, you deserve it.
2) I wasn't saying Ghosts were imbalanced. I didn't even say they were strong (except against High Templars) I was making a joke about the amulet upgrade removal (Complaining for the fun of it, if you will) when Caliban mentioned Science Vessels. I politely reminded him that Ghosts and Science Vessels aren't even close to being the same thing.
3) Why the hell is it that everytime I reply to someone, someone has to reply back completely misunderstandng the situation and waste more of my time? Damn, it's frustrating.
/Enjoys Wasting Your TimeQuote:
Originally Posted by TychusFindlay
:D
Umm... I get "blanket" Psi Storm all the time..no where to run (litterally). It works out best if you just let the poor marines fire off a few last rounds before being ripped into pieces. I really don't know how I "Deserve that" when the guy warps in 5+ HT and spams psi storm On/Back/Front.
Oh well sucks for bioball users, I still love my tanks and marines as meatshield/fodder.
Why people misunderstand you, probably because the average poster can only withstand reading 3-5 posts from a post.
I think you would 'deserve it' for committing to a bioball without bringing in the appropriate support (Ghosts with EMP) or switching to the appropriate counter despite knowing the opponent is fielding HTs. Just as a Protoss player deserves being trashed for sticking to Stalkers without researching Blink when Zerg starts bringing out Brood Lords.Quote:
Originally Posted by hyde
HTs and storms are being used specifically because they counter bioballs well. So naturally, the Protoss player should be emerging the victor. Mass Marines and Marauders should not be able to weather everything, if you know what I mean.
Just dropping my two cents as a spectator.