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i dont understand your reasoning. if you are bronze-gold then so are your opnent; his ability to timely create and use mutalisks s impeded thereafter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter_I
also, you probably dont want to be warping in high templars to defend against unexpected voidrays
Well if the opponent has "unexpected voidrays" then a HT is pretty alright. Void rays don't move that quickly now that they have no speed upgrade. They're basically slower than banshees or vikings. Plus they tend to clump up as people micro them.
If the opponent continues to go void rays then stalker/phoenix or stalker/HT deals with it well. The HT mix is more defensive though while the phoenix one is to hunt down void rays.
EDIT:
@Hunter
Well you can go phoenixes. If you don't like air then go for archons through DTs. Move the DTs around the map, killing workers,etc and force zerg to dump gas into overseers rather than mutalisks. Then get forge upgrades and blink. Mass stalkers with DTs and archons. A few sentries and zealots mixed in. The forge you could go double forge to get up to +3+3 quickly or just one forge and get up to +2 attack before armor.
The archon has a DPS of 20 against the biological units of the zerg. Each attack does 35 damage with splash in a radius of 1. And they get +3 on their base attack and +1 on their bonus to bio from each attack upgrade. And they can attack air.:P Put in a few sentries for guardian shield and maybe even hallucinate some archons. Archons work better against mutaling and work reasonably ok against roaches. They're not that good versus roach/hydra though because of the range disadvantage.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Archon
And in terms of how to deal with harassing attacks....just max out as protoss on 2/3 bases. Get like colossus. Maybe mix in some voidrays/phoenixes if you want. Then just move out and hopefully your max army is so strong the opponent can't beat it. Plus going phoenixes helps you defend your bases anyways from aerial harass.
@Toddie
Well, that might be, but still, I have 1 less think in my pocket, and that happens to be exactly the thing I used to have as primary "backup" plan for one I get raided while attacking the enemy's base. Normally I'd just put 2-3 cannons, have 1 templar chilling and know, that I could warp in some massive storm if I need it. Not any more.
@JackhammerIV Just yesterday I happend storm kill a 12-15 VR "sneak attack" on my gold exp, while my main army was sieging his main and natural. From 1.3 I'd have to leave his base be and march my whole ar most of the Ground2Air units to protect the gold exp.
Its Todie with one d, thx.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter_I
in the grander scheme of things, this was deemed a problem; its arguably too easy for Protoss players to just throw HT's at any unexpected problem. This can hold true regardless of skill level.
.. though i dont see HT's as optimal vs VR unless they are horribly clumped together and not micromanaged, apparently JH disagrees. In ither case, the fx here is to primitively warp in more templars to hold a defensive position if you think you might need them, and when needed, reinforce with reactionary warpins - of stalker/zealot/DT to meet the threat (and adapting to the situation)
... though stimmed marines and speedligns on creep are quicker to react to drops and whatnot, warpin is arguably still a powerful enough mechanic to make up for that lesser army-mobility, defensively.
... as for preventing or preparing for drops, like i said, leave an extra HT in place, to regen energy to hold an important location, and even keep any air units close-by to shut down drops.
... for a bronze-gold level, this may sound like alot, but really, regardless of level of play, starcraft strategy always comes down to priorities and assessing threats; it will be relatively easier to hold any counter-aggression that comes from that lower caliber player, so if you are at the same level, you should be able to handle it... In actuality, it might come down to one more pre-emptive canon and HT to stay safe... (compare this to terran who msut commit to PF and/or turrets and preferabyl station a tank or two at any far-away expo for it to be reasonably safe for a long enough time vs medium-scale high mobility agression, or zerg who can rarely hope to buy mroe tahn a few seconds with crawlers and must rely so heavily on map-awareness and reacting with army / mutaflock)
Yes, which is good, you should make some Cannons or come back with the army to defend your expansion. That is what Terran or Zerg have to do anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter_I
High Templar now take ~44 seconds to get up storm?
Well, infestors and ghosts take 50 and 40 seconds to build, respectively.
So... yeah. We get to have our spells out right away, and you get to have your casters out right away. If we're going to resort to drawing parallels between the races, this is an important one.
If you can give a reason why any Protoss would want to use Vortex, much less buy a Mothership, now that it has been rendered not only harmless but beneficial to the enemy, I'm all ears.Quote:
Originally Posted by WhoamI
Really, the "Archon Toilet" was about the only really good reason to use Vortex. Hell, it was as close as one could get to how devastating Black Hole could have been, and it working hinged pretty much on your opponent making all the right mistakes.
There is one problem that protoss players have with that which isn't stated enough.
Infestor takes 50 seconds to build. It is protected by a zerg cocoon with 200 health and 10 armor during building time.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Egg
Ghost takes 40 seconds to build. It is protected by a 1000 health barracks with +1 building armor as it is being built.
With no amulet High Templar warp in and then take ~44 seconds to get enough energy to storm. During this time of building up energy the High Templar is not protected by any building. It has 40 health and 40 shields with no base armor.
So the infestor and ghost can safely get the 75 starting energy upon hatching/completed training. But the High Templar needs to be out in the field and vulnerable for ~44 seconds.
Now let's say a drop happens as these casters are building/gathering up energy. Which caster is now most vulnerable to being killed??
The gateway is on cooldown after warping in a HT. That's the parallel already. A poster I saw on TL for this subject said it nicely. Protoss have their production cycles backwards. They get their units now then have to wait for it to finish building (warpgate cooldown). If they warp in the wrong unit they have to wait for cooldown to finish before being able to warp something else in.
The problem with HT was insta warp in storms. Blizzard could easily have made the amulet upgrade only +20 instead of +25 and it would stop insta warp in storming. But now with no amulet toss warps in a HT. Warpgates go on cooldown for 45 seconds and during that cooldown the HT can only feedback and is vulnerable to being killed. At the very end of the cooldown then the HT can storm. So basically each warpgate was used to get a unit that can only attack once while the warpgate is on cooldown. Either feedback or storm. It doesn't fit the warpgate mentality of "get the unit to use now and have the build time for it later". Without the amulet warping in a HT becomes "get the unit now and when it finishes 'building' then you can use storms".
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Warpgate
Unfortunately, the problem is, specifically, that Protoss have their production cycles backward. Or, if you want to look at it in a different way, they don't have to choose what unit they are getting until it is already built. So the Warp-Gate mentality of "get the unit out now and build it later" IS the problem; it's only that Stalkers, sentries and zealots aren't nearly as powerful as High Templar with storms. Without the upgrade, HTs become, in that sense, closer relatives to the other races' casters, and therefore more balanced.Quote:
Originally Posted by JackhammerIV
That they can be killed while gathering energy is inconsequential, if you simply keep them together with your deathball (though I realize they do lag behind). What is far more threatening is the ability to EMP a HT, before they are done gathering the necessary energy.
Mullet it's like zerg and terran don't seem to mind that with no amulet at all toss has to protect their HTs for 44.44 seconds to gather up enough energy. Simply because "Oh warp gate being able to warp in HTs with storm immediately available is imba."
How is it more balanced and fairer if protoss has to defend their caster for 44.44 seconds when zerg doesn't have to defend their egg and terran doesn't have to defend their barracks as much to protect the valuable casting unit inside it.
Is it fair and balanced if instead HTs have no insta warp in storms but don't have to be protected for 44.44 secs to build up energy??
The warpgate mechanic works fine as it is. It's not like I warp in a stalker then 10 seconds later I can warp in something else. A protoss that is macroing well will have his warpgates constantly producing and they'll be on cooldown most of the time. And chronoboosting warpgates is not that common unless it's for a rush or for defense.
So to provide easy of comparison say I play a standard game against terran. No fast rushes or 4 gates. I get my "problematic" warp gate mechanic and warp in my first round of units. Am I ahead of Terran in army size?? Then my second warp in round comes. Am I ahead of Terran in army size now?? Then my third warp in, etc. I would say that the army sizes are pretty much even. In some cases it might even be that terran is ahead in army size until the next warp in occurs.
Then the fact that I get to choose what I unit I want and have it basically immediately. It gives protoss the ability to reinforce without a long rally line to the front line of the battle. But it still has a disadvantage. I can't cancel the warp in unless it's off a warp prism and i turn off phasing mode. Say i press E and click warping in a sentry then i realise "Oh crap I actually want a stalker". I can't take it back. The unit is already there. That's the same disadvantage zerg has with larva. If they just mindlessly press Z and get all lings then realise they wanted roaches it's too late. Their larva is gone. I have no room for error, I have to make exactly the unit I want/is needed for the situation. With terran say you mistakenly make a marine. You can just immediately cancel it then make a maruader instead.
EDIT: Plus deathballs are usually colossus based. Hence why it's a ball since colossus need to be surrounded and protected by gateway units. Going mass gateway units with DTs and templar is supposed to be a style that offers more mobility since the units don't have to be clumped together like a ball. Can move the army around the map and use the large gateway count to warp in units if a drop happens. This is because I have no key unit that can be sniped. Then say protoss wants to push with HTs. So protoss warps them in and moves out immediately with the HTs.
Now if there's no amulet. I arbitrarily choose to attack at 15:00 with HTs. So i warp them in at 14:15 and wait for their energy to rise. During that time I have to worry about my HTs being sniped. So i keep my army back and protect the HTs well. Just one drop or one mutalisk harass that comes in and there's nothing to protect the HT then it dies. Even then if a drop comes in and the force protecting the HT is small enough then the drop/mutalisks can rush towards the HT and snipe it. Especially problematic with mutalisks. Mutalisks hang around and hit a probe here, damage a pylon there. So i move my stalkers to stop mutalisks from wrecking my mineral line. Then they circle around. Or it might even be a two pronged mutalisk attack. Then they see my like 3 HTs sitting there gathering energy. Then they kill them. Then i sigh and I warp in 3 HTs again. Then i wait. Then the opponent has 44.44 seconds to do the same thing again.
That's why most toss just plain outright say the change will make colossi more popular. If you're going to be stuck protecting a key unit in your base and not being able to move out easily due to the key unit's slow speed. Plus it has low HP. Then there's not much advantage going mass gateways into templar tech if you can't use the mobility and fast reinforcement benefits. Might as well make that key unit a colossus instead of a HT.
Yeah, generally, if something is too strong, the best course of action is to make it less strong.Quote:
Originally Posted by JackhammerIV
Because, as it stands, Protoss gets to choose when and where they want a storm, and as long as they have a pylon in the vicinity, 150 gas, and a warpgate not on cooldown, they can have a psi-storm. If Terran wants EMP, he has to have a barracks that isn't building, 150 gas, 40 seconds and whatever time it takes the ghost to get where he needs to be.Quote:
How is it more balanced and fairer if protoss has to defend their caster for 44.44 seconds when zerg doesn't have to defend their egg and terran doesn't have to defend their barracks as much to protect the valuable casting unit inside it.
Is it fair and balanced if instead HTs have no insta warp in storms but don't have to be protected for 44.44 secs to build up energy??
Warp-in is absolutely fine for units like stalkers, sentries, and zealots, but I believe we can all agree that there are some units that shouldn't be able to be warped in. Warp-in is fine, but would warped-in Colossi be fine? Void Rays? Carriers? Motherships? HT with instant storm are just another unit that is to powerful to be warped in instantly.Quote:
The warpgate mechanic works fine as it is. It's not like I warp in a stalker then 10 seconds later I can warp in something else. A protoss that is macroing well will have his warpgates constantly producing and they'll be on cooldown most of the time. And chronoboosting warpgates is not that common unless it's for a rush or for defense.
So to provide easy of comparison say I play a standard game against terran. No fast rushes or 4 gates. I get my "problematic" warp gate mechanic and warp in my first round of units. Am I ahead of Terran in army size?? Then my second warp in round comes. Am I ahead of Terran in army size now?? Then my third warp in, etc. I would say that the army sizes are pretty much even. In some cases it might even be that terran is ahead in army size until the next warp in occurs.
With Terran, when you mistakenly begin a marine, by the time that marine finishes, you might not need it anymore. If you begin building marauders because they have stalkers, and suddenly their force is reduced to sentry/zealot because it turns out you had enough marauders, you are given time to cancel. If you begin building zealots because they have marauders, then your zealots help fight the marauders and beat them. If it turns out you didn't need that many zealots because there are banshees coming, you can't cancel your zealots to get back the production time.Quote:
Then the fact that I get to choose what I unit I want and have it basically immediately. It gives protoss the ability to reinforce without a long rally line to the front line of the battle. But it still has a disadvantage. I can't cancel the warp in unless it's off a warp prism and i turn off phasing mode. Say i press E and click warping in a sentry then i realise "Oh crap I actually want a stalker". I can't take it back. The unit is already there. That's the same disadvantage zerg has with larva. If they just mindlessly press Z and get all lings then realise they wanted roaches it's too late. Their larva is gone. I have no room for error, I have to make exactly the unit I want/is needed for the situation. With terran say you mistakenly make a marine. You can just immediately cancel it then make a maruader instead.
On the other hand, you could look at it in a different light: that instead of the cooldown coming after you warp in a unit, think of the cooldown as the production time for your next unit. In this situation, if you want a zealot, you wait until your production cycle is up. Then, if you still need a zealot, you warp one in. If he has banshees, you warp in a stalker instead.
Neither way is too terribly bad for any race. I would definitely argue that warp-in is far more advantageous than your standard queue, but you can look at it whatever way you want. The problem is not with the mechanic of Warp-in, it's with the mechanic of warp in applied to a spell like psi-storm. The ability to instantly respond with a crushingly powerful spell is simply imbalanced, especially in a situation where there is another counter for the same group of units.
I actually don't see this as an argument for keeping in the amulet upgrade. It seems to me that colossi are perfectly capable of dealing with the same units that would otherwise be dealt with by storm. The only disadvantage it would create is in mobility, which proved to be the greatest asset of the amulet upgrade on larger maps. Once again, if something is too strong, the best course of action is to make it less strong.Quote:
That's why most toss just plain outright say the change will make colossi more popular. If you're going to be stuck protecting a key unit in your base and not being able to move out easily due to the key unit's slow speed. Plus it has low HP. Then there's not much advantage going mass gateways into templar tech if you can't use the mobility and fast reinforcement benefits. Might as well make that key unit a colossus instead of a HT.
Again Mullet all the arguments you present are basically for warp in insta storms. Just like the majority of arguments about this from the other races. If the problem is insta storms then just nerf the amulet not completely remove it.
Like terrans complaining about it. Then yeah sure I can understand that. So why not nerf the amulet so it takes 10-20seconds after warp in to build up enough energy for storm. With the closer to 10seconds feeling better for protoss. There are no more insta storms then.
But most people seems to argue that protoss should just be forced to deal with HTs being forced to sit out in the field for 44.44 seconds to make them more balanced with the other spellcasters. All due to them not approving of insta storms. So Mullet I ask you do you approve of just nerfing the amulet instead of removing it??
Protoss already spend longer and more resources to get up to HTs with amulet. And just nerfing the amulet adds on extra time to the process and removes insta warp in storm ability without completely changing the way protoss play gateway based armies. And here's a bit of reposting of something I said previously.
Terran:
Ghost academy 150 min 50 gas 40 secs
Moebius reactor 100 min 100 gas 80 secs
Overall 250 minerals 150 gas and 120 secs.
Toss:
Twilight council 150 min 100 gas 50 secs
Templar archive 150 min 200 gas 50 secs
Storm 200 min 200 gas 110 secs
Amulet 150 min 150 gas 110 secs (nerfed instead of removed)
Overall 650 minerals 650 gas 320 secs (can cut down to around 260 secs with non stop chronoboost) then + additional time to build up energy say 10 seconds.
Zerg:
Lair 150 min 100 gas 80 secs
Infestation pit 100min 100gas 50 secs
Pathogen glands 150min 150gas 80 secs
Overall 400 min 350gas 210secs
Toss already spends much more and longer getting to templar tech. And forcing toss to them protect a HT for 44.44seconds is too much. I didn't even add the cybernetics core which is another important step. Just nerf the amulet and maybe cut down the cost or time of amulet a bit to reflect it. Even leaving it at the current cost and time is fine actually.
You might be right JH; it might make sense to just nerf the amulet or replace it with something that soften the nerfing blow, as we've been over...
im just sceptical about how this converges with blizzards design philosophy of keeping corners and edges clear cut; they dont want to contaminate the notion of an energy upgrade. a unit either has one, or doesnt, and they all work the exact same way, there is no deviation. this is an instrumental part of helping newer / more casual players make sense of all the parts of the game.
... a replacement or change of the amulet might be more likely to happen in an ex-pack.
we might be more likely to see other compensating buff's to HT's to make up for amulet removal. like a move-speed buff, or less likely, psi-storm effectiveness... if at all, i think this will role out later, if and when/if it becomes apparent that Protoss has become underpowered and amulet removal being the reason.
as for the issue of HT fragility in PvZ, it seems likely that phoenix will become more reliable as long term answers to mutalisk harassment, as they will be much harder to catch with fungals for the win, after patch (even if the do end up speeding up the fungal projectile slightly) ... being so fast, they'll help in covering HT's , when/if you egt them. Even if this change makes Colossi more even more mainstream, i believe HT's will still have a role and still be good, and especially, as i mentioned before, once HT tech finshes up, it might take a less dominant place in the P's gas budget, witch might be good for endgame diversity longterm.
Colossi always felt like a bigger problem than HT's in ZvP, but thats probably at least partially because we dont see HT's as often... The Amulet-removal strikes me at more aimd at PvT.
Yeah amulet was aimed at PvT. I remember the first time it came out and a bunch of zergs from the community saying how awesome that was that templar had no amulet. Then the protoss just said well we still have our stalker colossi ball or voidray colossus ball against you zergs so shush and let us protoss and terrans talk it out. LOL.:D
In the middle of a SotG now. InControL gave a good idea regarding the no energy upgrade or with energy upgrade. Just put storm on a cooldown. Leave amulet as it with +25 energy. But like templars warp in taking 5 secs. Then when the templar fully warps in psi storm is on a cooldown so it can't be used immediately. Maybe make it like a 10 second cooldown. Only then it can be used. So it becomes:
Toss decides to warp in a HT.
5 seconds to warp.
HT is out now. Storm on cooldown.
Wait 10 seconds then it can storm.
They still warp in with 75 energy but there's no longer an issue with insta warp in storms. And it makes it more that protoss needs to pick a safe place to warp in HTs to leave them for 10 seconds until cooldown ends then being able to storm. Or like warping them in further back and letting them slowly move to the battle and by the time they arrive their cooldown is up.
What's the problem with keeping the amulet and changing HT production to be non warp and boostable?
The biggest problem with that argument is the status of core units. Protoss core units suck. HT is not support, it's the main DPS of an army. If Protoss doesn't have AoE in the mid-game, they lose to Zerg/Terran T1-T1.5 units and hard. Try it out, 80-120 supply of gateway units to 80-120 supply of MM or roach/hydra or even muta-ling. There's almost no way to beat these compositions without AoE.Quote:
Originally Posted by MulletBen
There is one way. I've been messing around a bit with double forge build. If the opponent doesn't notice and only has +1 attack or just +1+1 then +2+2 gateway units do well. But it doesn't last long before they catch up in upgrades. So yeah need way more upgrades or AoE.
Because then you're violating the basic rules of the game. Everything from the Warp-Gate can get Warped-In. That's why the Immortal was moved to the Robo Facility, it was OP when warped in. Its this way so there's never any question of why something is allowed when something else is not. If the Immortal was still at the Gateway but couldn't be Warped-In, it would set a ridiculous precedent and allow a lot of other silly rule breaking to take place, which would make the game's fundamental mechanics too complicated and unbalanced.Quote:
Originally Posted by SinsWage
No, they would've just nerfed it until it wasn't imbalanced.Quote:
Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid
They moved it to the Robo because they felt that it was too much of a no-brainer to get Immortals when against armored. They wanted you to go through some kind of effort/risk before you get such a hard counter (regarless of balancing). Dustin Browder said so himself.
That's what I meant, TF. OP... when warped in as a hard counter. I thought it was implied since DB having given that info is common knowledge. I'll try to be more specific for your tiny brain from now on.
OP has nothing to do with it. He didn't say, "It would be OP to be able to warp them in and there's no way we can balance that." He said, "There's no decision making in deciding whether or not to get Immortals against armored units if you can already get them without teching. That's not good gameplay."
Blizzard could easily nerf the Immortal to where it's balanceable in terms of being warped-in but, then, there's no decision to be made. You get Immortals if you see armored. Period.
Sorry, I'll be sure to turn my sufficient sentences in overly expanatory paragaphs for your tiny brain from now on.
Well, that whole argument is unnecessary.
Honestly, the only thing OP about warping-in anything is that you can get it out too quickly to counter. The only difference between warp-in and standard queuing is time; specifically, response time. What they are doing is making it so you can't auto-counter by warping in High Templar. Same concept, only it would make no sense for Immortals to come in on a cooldown before they could attack.
So, call it OP, opr call it bad gameplay; the issue is that it is hard, if not impossible, to make warping in Psi-storms or Immortals balanced. How much would either of those need to be nerfed to make them totally balanced? What drastic changes would need to be made to Immortals before they wouldn't be too powerful against a Zerg player who roach rushed? Similarly, in order to make MMM drops viable while storms are instant, how much damage would storm actually deal, and over what radius? The bad gameplay mechanics force the unit into a situation where it is poorly balanced.
For an example of this, look at the reaper. It's hard to make the reaper a unit that is usable late-game without it's early harassment potential becoming overpowered. Thus, it is relegated to a very small, almost meaningless role.
Sorry, Tychus, but I'm afraid I'm going to have to side with the squid, this time.
You can warp-in a unit anywhere in pylon/prism power :D That's the cause for concern; not the reduced build time.
That's why the Blizzard developers get the big bucks :D Hard =\= Impossible. There is always a way. For example, an upgrade or some other mechanic not yet implemented. I'm glad you're not a developer. If scientists thought like you, there'd be no technology to game on.Quote:
Originally Posted by MulletBen
There's not a side to take: I am quoting Dustin Browder. It's not debatible. My argument was that Immortals were put into Robotics Facilities because Immortals being Gateway units removed important decision making crucial to the game; not because of balance. Since I haven't seen anyone question the legitimacy of this quote because the quote being wrong is the only way there's an grounds for arguent. Therefore, there should be no debate.
But since there is: they had Immortals balanced to be warped-in for at least a year. I understand what you're saying. But, there's always a way and they had it. It could've been making the building to get Immortals higher tech, nerfing the damage, nerfing the HPs, removing the shield, I don't know what it was but obviously it worked for a long time. Just because you or I can't come up with a solution in a few minutes doesn't mean anything. Game design is much more complex.
I never mentioned psi-storms so I don't know why you brought that up. *ignored*
-- http://us.battle.net/en/forums/threa...p=1#post357439
Apparently part of the balancing was to make the cooldown longer after warping-in an Immortal.
.
If I may provide another variation of this point, warp-in is irrelevant to the immortal move to the robo facility. Even if warp-in was never implemented into SC2, according to Dustin Browder's logic, they still would have moved it to the robo. The purpose being that he believed it would just be massed against armored units every time they appeared. Whether this involves warping in, or queuing up as many as you can with what would presumably be more warp gates than robo facilities.Quote:
There's not a side to take: I am quoting Dustin Browder. It's not debatible. My argument was that Immortals were put into Robotics Facilities because Immortals being Gateway units removed important decision making crucial to the game; not because of balance. Since I haven't seen anyone question the legitimacy of this quote because the quote being wrong is the only way there's an grounds for arguent. Therefore, there should be no debate.
As for all of the people making comparisons between infestors, ghosts, and templars.... may I point out something... You all continue to say well why are infestors able to immediately FG and ghosts can immediately EMP, etc... but they are not the same units. Major point in that regard, can two infestors or two ghosts morph into a strong attacking unit after they're out of energy! Didn't think so. This game is complex, not made to be broken down and analyzed as though each race is identical in some shape or form.
Also, if I may note in regard to Jackhammer's "professional" comments in concern to the change, both Tasteless and Artosis who are Protoss players believe the change is for the best. Both saying it was far too strong as is, and that some sort of nerf is necessary whether it be what Blizzard is doing in the test run or what they eventually do to adjust it.
That's exactly what I meant :D I just used the term warp-in to replace Gateway because I didn't think my words through and everyone else was using that term.
I don't agree with Tasteless' or Artosis' opinion because they tend to be around people who do not challenge their thinking, with them being English speaking and all, and not Korean speaking. I have heard Koreans from Team StarTale comment on the removal briefly, and they do say the KA is too strong as is, but removing the upgrade is totally stupid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jabber Wookie
Anyways, that wasn't my main issue though...
I have a few points to present for the case of getting the KA.
KA is essential as it presents an alternative to the DPS of the Colossus without its inherent weakeness - its mobility.
What I mean is that, for every Protoss that goes Colossus, Terran just does mass infantry drops and cripples Protoss in midgame, because when Protoss is pushing with his Colossi/Stalker/Sentry/Zealot ball, he cannot separate the gate core from the robo units. The reason is that all gate units are weak by nature. The Protoss is screwed because of that.
Another inherent weakness of the Colossus, but is of less of an issue with the substitute since there is an inherent weakness to HT as well, is the presence of direct counters. Vikings for Colossi; Ghosts for HT.
So, in the above respects, HT have an advantage for teching to over Robo. The strength of KA is the instant storm upon warp-in.
This gets hairy for Terran when we approach lategame or are in lategame - instant storm reinforcement can turn the tide of battles significantly in favor of Protoss. However, here is the catch:
Terrans can whine all they want about that power from Protoss, but it is their own fault to stick to pure bio core army for lategame tech. The reason why Stim and Concussive shells seem OP in early game is because they are upgrades that make bio Tier 3 units instantly. But, there is a fundamental flaw in that thinking - infantry are still tier 1 barracks units!
As such, it makes SENSE that HT that are tier 3 and are extremely expensive SHOULD punish a Terran who sticks to tier 1 - 1.5. But, Terrans just whine saying infantry is too good (in their perception). I hate it when they do that: there is something called a Factory in their damn tech tree, they can transition into a mix of bio and mech whose DPS output is much larger than pure infantry.
Thor/Tank/Marine with turrets can wreck ANY Protoss with HT-centric forces, and even Colossi heavy ones. The key is to have positional advantage with siege tanks and the 250mm strike cannons researched for countering Immortals.
Storm doesn't do shit to Tanks or Thors... Even instant storms. Therefore, I believe the inclusion of KA to be justified. However, since the masses are biased to think that bio is the only option for Terran, I think that the solution from inControl to add a cooldown of 10-12 seconds to spells upon warp-in is a fabulous idea.
Keep the KA, let it cost the same and take the same amount of time to research, but add an inherent cooldown to every HT warped in, just like Corruptors have on their corruption spell.
This would make the lategame balanced for Terran and Protoss, and would keep the viability of the Templar Tech tree as an alternative to Robotics. The other thing it does is it allows Protoss to warp in a HT in advance when spotting a drop of 2 medivacs from strategically placed observers and only having to wait 10 seconds or so which cuts it close to have a storm as the drop arrives, or makes it so the Templar is seconds away from instant storm, which gives Terran a very risky but small window of opportunity.
It creates a micro-tension between the Terran and Protoss, and that would increase the appeal for the PvT gameplay.
So, basically, adding a 10second cooldown upon warpin while still keeping the KA as is would totally "fix" lategame PvT and still be helpful to defend drops.
The reason why Protoss need AoE DPS from casters or power units is because Stim and Concussive shells coupled with medivac healing make ANY drop impossible to stop with pure cybercore units, especially 2-3 dropships. Hence KA has to stay.
As a side note to show how KA is not OP in the current patch, I suggest everyone watch Sang Ho (TSL_Killer) vs Slayers_MMA in today's GSL code A games. One of the most epic PvTs you will ever see. And MMA goes mass marauder+a few marines and medivacs + mass vikings to fight Sang Ho's army of Colossi Stalker Sentry that he later converted into Immortal/HT/Zeal/Stalker and then mixed Colossi afterwards when ghosts started appearing. Sang Ho outplayed MMA, not because of his storms, but because he was the better player at multi-tasking. KA had little to no bearing on the end result. This was the Xel'Naga Caverns game.
PS:
One thing to remember that I forgot to mention/elaborate on:
HT are tier 3 and cost >>> ghosts and infestors which are tier 2, Marines are tier 1, Marauders are tier 1.5.
Usually tier 3 > tier 1/1.5 right? So, Terrans really need to learn mech style better....
The cost to get 1 HT with instant storm involves 2 tech buildings, 2 researches and the cost of 1 HT (which is not cheap at 50/150 per Templar).
- Final time taken: 320 seconds (includes KA and psi storm) + 5 seconds to warp in HT = 325 seconds
- With CB: approx 213 seconds (still a full 53 seconds longer than Ghost tech) + 5 seconds for warp in = 218 seconds
Ghosts take 1 tech building and 1 research (EMP is free).
- Final time taken: 160 seconds (includes time to make 1 ghost + moebius reactor)
@ Protosswarrior
If you really compare Psi Storms to the EMP, why don't you bring all of the facts you can get between them?
- Ghosts aren't even close to being useful as HTs.
- EMP is damaging shield for 100, and is draining all of the energy, while storm do 80 damage. By saying that, EMP when casted on one group of units, has no effects if it is casted again on the same group, since a lot of the Protoss units got no more than 100 shield.
- EMP has no effects vs. Zerg units without energy, while Storm does.
- Ghosts aren't massable units, while all of the Protoss players make a lot of HTs, and keep constantly warping them in, which means when you spread Protoss units, you can minimize the damage of the EMP, while you will do the same with the Storm, there will always be good amount of HTs, or new warped-in HTs, and you will always have good amount of Storms to Storm those units again.
- After using all of the energy, Ghosts aren't that strong, while HTs can be merged into Archons that are pretty powerful units.
- And after all HTs have feedback, that can snipe Ghosts before Ghosts can do anything, or Medivacs, or whatever unit Terran has with energy.
- Ghosts can launch Nuclear Missiles, that are powerful, but really hard to execute. Especially if you want to hit the army.
You can't kill units with just EMP and Ghosts, but you certainly can with just High Templars...
Now, you can analyze which one is stronger, including your facts about time and cost you need.
Also, the statement that Storms doesn't work vs. Siege Tanks if pretty false since it takes half of their HP, and unlike Marauders, Tanks can't be healed with Medivacs, and will die from the second Storm, but it is true that if you position Tanks good, Storms will have little to no effect.
And about the games, you can also watch oGsMC vs. ZeNEXByun and see how effective Storm can really be.
Did the Ghost suddenly lose access to its basic attack, Snipe, and Cloaking while I wasn't looking? I play Protoss and hate Terran, but even I can admit Ghosts are probably the superior all around unit. Your entire argument is situational based on player skill, who can Feedback/Storm/Snipe/EMP first.Quote:
Originally Posted by RamiZ
They didn't lose all of that, but those things aren't that good at all, not close to what HT can do. Cloak isn't that good, especially when you have Observers and Overseers with your main army.Quote:
Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid
Yes, Ghosts are "superior" all-around unit, that is why we are seeing them in all those matches right? Oh wait, there aren't any matches with Ghosts outside of TvP, where HTs are pretty common in PvZ and PvT... And because you are Protoss, you shouldn't say "even I can admit" because it is logical that you will cry about Terrans and Ghosts.
And my argument is based on professional level, I've never said who should do what first. There is range for abilities, and HT will Feedback Ghosts before they are in range for EMP(if they cast it at the same time) and I even think that it has the same range as Snipe, but don't quote me on that.
Problem is, even if you EMP his whole army, together with HTs, he will warp-in another row of them, and will Storm your whole army anyway.
I even said that HT nerf is a bit too much, I think they need something in return, but don't act like it isn't better than any other +25 energy upgrade just because of the fact that HTs can be warped.
Everything you're saying is based on what is happening NOW in the pro metagame. Need I remind thee of the Vulture, the once worthless unit that became a staple of good Terran play years later? Just because no one is using Ghosts outside TvP now doesn't mean they won't explode in use later. I think TLO has more than shown us the use of Ghosts and Nuking in TvT, and the use of Cloaking and Snipe in PvZ.Quote:
Originally Posted by RamiZ
I'm not saying the HT didn't need a nerf. I'm saying you're being unreasonably biased about the matchup. Ghosts are very good units and EMP is not to be underestimated.
@Ramiz
Well a feedback isn't guaranteed to kill anything unless it has energy in excess of its HP. Ghosts can have uses in TvZ to snipe considering all zerg units are biological. But in TvP it's almost essential for terrans to get considering it does AOE attack on all protoss units. HT are only common in PvZ if the opponent goes for lings/hydras/mutas in large numbers. Roaches like marauders just giggle and run through the whole storm.
EMP damage instant: Another point you missed out is EMP shield damage is instant. Storm damage is over time. At the lowest point EMP removes 40 shields off sentries. But then sentries without energy aren't as useful anymore. So the EMP energy removal on sentries hits harder than the shield damage it does. Zealot has 50 shields. Stalker has 80 shields.
The damage: Ok so psi storm does 10 damage every half second. To do 40 damage a unit needs to be inside psi storm for 2 seconds. To do 50 damage unit sits inside the storm for 2.5 seconds. To do 80 damage a unit has to sit in the storm for the full duration of 4 seconds.
A marine with no combat shield does one stim and thus has 35 hp. It needs to sit in the storm for 2 seconds to die. A marauder needs at the very least 2 psi storms to kill it (at the very fastest) in 6.5 seconds (due to non stacking of psi storms). A marine/marauder stimming can move 3.375 in 1 second. So it can cover the whole diameter of a storm in 1 second with stim. At the quickest and worst case of marine has to run through the entire storm to escape (i.e. run diameter of 3) I guess a marine can only escape a storm in 2 seconds. See storm, stim, run back. With combat shield a marine stimming out of the whole storm should expect to end up with 5hp then.
Say the terran has slow reaction speed so it takes 3 seconds. So that's 60 damage. EMP can only match that by hitting stalkers. Here's the thing though. EMP has a larger overall area by 77.78% [(2/1.5)(squared) -1].
Dealing with EMP/storm: How does a protoss deal with EMPs. Zealots in front, stalkers then sentries in the back. Spread in an arc. If ghosts are out then most toss would do this whenever they have some time to rearrange the army.
What should terrans do if HTs are out. Marauders in front. Marines behind them. Spread out in an arc. Exactly like dealing with banelings. But instead with stim and MMM there is a tendency for the units to clump up together and marines and marauders are mixed around in the clump.
The more marines in a bioball the better colossus and HT get. Terrans might want to consider more marauders and fewer marines. And is not going bio vs protoss that weak?? If terran is going mech HTs aren't as useful. Just before the PTR was announced it was like "Toss HT is so damn strong. Lemme try mech in late game." Now it's "No amulet....YES!!!! It's safer to go bio all game long."
Brief range, radius, cost, time comparison: In terms of cost and time terran can get ghost with EMP 2.6 times cheaper on minerals, 4.33 times cheaper on gas and 2.17-2.67 times faster than HT warped in being able to storm. Exact cost and time are on page 10 of this thread.
EMP has a range of 10 and a radius of 2. Snipe has a range of 10. Psi storm has a range of 9 and a radius of 1.5. Feedback has a range of 9.
So EMP has more range, bigger radius, can be gotten sooner and costs less. Considering how MMM clumps storm would do more damage and warp in with amulet makes it very strong.
EDIT: Terran can transition into mech and more marauders and storm isn't as good anymore. All protoss units have shields so EMP can remain useful throughout the game. Up to everyone's opinion if they're on equal ground. I personally think due to that utility against basically all protoss builds EMP is better in the TvP matchup than storm is.
Archons? Archons take 12 seconds to morph and there is a tendency even in pro play for archons to be morphing near the front line. In a way it needs to anyways if the battle is in a choke. Archons can be strong but how many marauders with stim and concussive are needed to kill an archon?? Archons getting popular in PvZ now because of how much damage they do. But they're not as popular in PvT simply because of concussive shell. I don't see why Archons can't be massive being able to break forcefields and not being slowed by conc shell.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/EMP_Round
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Psi_Storm
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Archon
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Marine
I feel like anyone even attempting to thorw nubemrs at this discussion is just contaminating it, becsaue tehre are always other angles to look at it from and numbers dont matter in any objective fundamental way
LOL. K k. In non-number form. Ghosts with EMP feels really dangerous against toss. Terrans just need to stop going bio vs storm. If terrans wanna go bio just go mass marauders with medivacs vs storm. Terrans don't seem to transition well in late game TvP.Quote:
Originally Posted by Todie
And the common counterargument of "EMP is almost too strong against protoss" seems to be "Well EMP can't kill anything so it's fine. And zergs don't have shields." EMP isn't completely overpowered but it's still really strong in the early game TvP.
I've never said that EMP isn't strong, I just think that Storm is stronger. That was my whole point, that even with all those higher costs and longer time needed to get HTs, that Storm still wins, in my opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by JackhammerIV
"The use of Cloaking and Snipe in PvZ" did you mean TvZ, or TvP?Quote:
Everything you're saying is based on what is happening NOW in the pro metagame. Need I remind thee of the Vulture, the once worthless unit that became a staple of good Terran play years later? Just because no one is using Ghosts outside TvP now doesn't mean they won't explode in use later. I think TLO has more than shown us the use of Ghosts and Nuking in TvT, and the use of Cloaking and Snipe in PvZ.
I'm not saying the HT didn't need a nerf. I'm saying you're being unreasonably biased about the matchup. Ghosts are very good units and EMP is not to be underestimated.
It is not like that the Pros didn't try Ghosts in TvZ, but if scouted, strategy is extremely easy to counter, and it is not so cost-effective. And I agree, this still doesn't mean they won't be used later, but yes, if you wanted to point out that I'm talking about current strategies, I certainly am and I don't see problem with that.
About your second paragraph, I never disagreed with the statement that Ghosts are good units, I said they aren't good as you are making it out to be. And I'm an Zerg player, I try to look at the things pretty objectively, I am not perfect, I can make mistakes and I fail sometimes, but reading that for you Ghosts are better than HTs, I'm not sure that I am the one being biased.
@Ramiz
Uhhhh. I never mentioned EMP not being strong. Or you suggesting it's weak. I can't even find anything implying that in any of my posts. I've always had the opinion EMP is too strong given the cost and time needed for terran to get it. It works well against the whole protoss tech tree. Every single unit. Even colossus it still cuts off 100shield hp on a unit that relies on keeping back and staying alive long enough to kill tons of shit.
Man you are confusing me... :xQuote:
Originally Posted by JackhammerIV
I think you completely misunderstood me. I've compared EMP with Psi Storm, saying that Storm is stronger, when looking overall on it. Then, you said that EMP isn't overpowered and that is very strong. I came, agreeing with it, saying that "I've never said that EMP isn't strong", by this I meant, I just thought that Psi Storm is better. Then, you came and said "I never mentioned EMP not being strong. Or you suggesting it's weak."
Seriously, can't understand you... :/
@Ramiz
Well you said "I never said that EMP isn't strong..." as the first thing after the quote. But I never mentioned at all that you were wrong thinking EMP is weak etc. That phrase just somehow gave me the implication that you somehow thought that I was accusing you of thinking EMP is weak. Which I didn't.
The rest of it I get clearly. You think Storm>>EMP. Which is just your opinion. I still think EMP>>Storm.
In TvP yes I agree, but you all forget the PvZ part, where EMP has little to no use, and where Storm wreck Havoc.Quote:
Originally Posted by JackhammerIV
http://sc2casts.com/cast2644-Huk-vs-...ft-Game-Ladder
This is just example, showing how storms can turn the tide of the battle. I respect everybody's opinion, but prove me wrong on this one.
Well.....roaches. Roaches just giggle past storms. Going mutaling vs storms is obviously bad. Like really bad. Asking all your units to die bad. Similar for ling hydra. But going mutaling to keep toss in base, expo like crazy then get ultralisks with 2-2 or 3-3 does ok.
Roach/hydra with possibly corruptors (if toss goes colossus) is good in PvZ vs most builds. Roaches stay in front and take the storms. Hydras stay in the back and kill shit. Get burrow even and use some burrow micro to burrow low hp roaches in the storms. They survive a lot longer. Mix in a few infestors for fungal if the zerg wants. Roaches are basically the key unit in PvZ and they do reasonably well against storms. Of course against zealot, immortal, HT it becomes a bit harder. Infestor fungal can help with that.
Good storms can turn the tide of battle. Just like a good EMP or a good fungal. And I think zerg is similar to protoss in that they don't have that much trouble dealing with storms.
Late game PvZ feels a lot more fluid than PvT. Say toss opens colossi. Zerg goes roach/hydra/corruptors. Protoss tries to engage and the corruptors start to overwhelm colossi. Protoss transitions into HTs. Zerg sees no more colossi so gets broodlords. Protoss is surprised and moves back. Gets a lot more stalkers then goes in to clear out broodlords. Zerg goes more roaches and ultralisks to kill all the stalkers and they can shrug off storms. Protoss goes immortals and cuts back on HTs. A lot of unit changes to catch the opponent off guard. And it can go multiple directions from the one path i laid out.
Late game PvT. Terran makes MMM and vikings. No colossi...mmmkay no need vikings. Mix in a few ghosts here and there. ZOMG HTs out. Ok ghost snipe & emp vs feedback & storm battles. Whereas in the GSTL TvP of Mvp vs Squirtle....oh he's making HTs. Let's transition into tons of tanks. Oh tanks less HTs lemme make more immortals now. Oh immortals lemme put in some more marines and ghosts. Oh he's making a bit more bio lemme put in some more HTs. A lot more unit composition changes in that game than is the norm currently.
EMP obviously is focused on TvP. It's the AOE spell that's the quickest and cheapest to get. And in one matchup it can take off 1/3 to 1/2 the total hp (shield and health) off gateway units. And it does 100 shield damage to high shield units. Shields being extremely important to two units the immortal and archon. And it can reveal cloaked units. And it drains all energy if it hits. I can understand if "The zealot, stalker and sentry are so so so strong that if we can't EMP them our terran infantry just dies." As a Protoss sure doesn't feel that way.
TvZ, it was a typo.Quote:
Originally Posted by RamiZ
Most strategies are easy to counter if scouted, that's the point of scouting. Not to forget Zerg have the easiest time countering a scouted strategy. They are the most reactive race because of how they create units. This is balanced by their need to balance drone and unit production. Have you ever, as a Zerg player, faced a good Ghost using Terran? Who instead of using a Thor rush or even Hellions, went Marine/Ghost? I play both Zerg and Protoss, and during Beta I faced a guy who did just that. Ghosts 2 shot Zerglings, and can Snipe Roaches into oblivion. Then, he cloaked, and Nuked me from every side. Send in an Overseer... Sniped. Send in a Spore crawler... yeah, they don't bury fast enough to spot a Nuking Ghost. Infestors? Holy shit, EMP has a use in PvZ. Can't FG a group of Marines when your Infestors are getting EMPed and Sniped.
Is Storm good? Hell yeah, it kicks ass, if you know how to use it and not miss. But shit, EMP and Snipe ruin Zerg. Queens, Infestors, Overseers. They get wrecked. HT's are powerful, but after this Amulet nerf, I wouldn't cry if Protoss got Ghosts to replace their anti-mass biological powers.