The damage is on 4 seconds. This is a huge increase in DPS.Quote:
Originally Posted by WhoamI
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The damage is on 4 seconds. This is a huge increase in DPS.Quote:
Originally Posted by WhoamI
I still see it very often. Prove me wrong, but Immortals/Hts combo is the only one that stops mass Roaches with Hydras and Corruptors. With enough Corruptors, your air or Colossi are useless, they die in a matter of second. While with Storm you counter every unit except for Roaches and Ultras, and with 5-6 Immortals, it is more than enough to counter both of these units.Quote:
Plus the templar change doesn't really do much for PvZ. Few toss go templar vs zerg. I used to like 2 months ago. Currently most toss would be going air/colossi vs zerg. Hurts the immortal HT combo a lot but archons are still good in PvZ.
Well considering corruptors still do +6 to massive and not +4 to armored then void rays actually still good. Can still go colossus and gateway units. But relies on obs scouting out how many corruptors you have. Can cut back on colossi if corruptor count high. Fast upgrades can help vs hydra roach. But need some kind of splash unit.
2 stargate 1 robo making voidrays and colossus might be able to deal with roach/hydra/corruptor. But really if toss is going immortal/ht no reason to get corruptors.
It always bothered me how storm was a research. It's so costly to tech up to HT storm use, and feedback is just too situational.
Better than BW, at least XpQuote:
Originally Posted by Blazur
Welcome patch! I love you so. The HT needed that upgrade gone. What is the point of a terran attacking when HT would just warp into mineral lines and destroy your eco? Also BC needed the movement increase.
Blizzard must really, really hate the Mothership. "What's this? The players have found a, albeit highly situational and incredibly tough to pull off, way of making the Mothership not suck? Well we can't have that now, can we?"
^ Tell me u're joking.. or that u're bronze..
I just agree with the bunk nerfing but...
No more amulet on ht?
Bc speed incrased?
Wft is going on?why blizzy is nerfing good units and not the terrans <,<
(p.s. who is going for the new league?maybe i will try it!)
Me of course, but I have to get to Masters first :)
This patch angers me. I almost want to switch races.
Are terran rushes seriously that strong? I'm only an above average diamond player and most of my 5-6 minute Terran rushes vs Protoss are a 50-50 depending if they are rushing or not.
So far...
-Depot tech for Barracks
-Bunker +5 to 35
-Reaper speed moved to factory
-Increased research for stim
-Increased bunker time to 40 now
Seriously, so many nerfs every patch but nothing to address marauders or MMM balls (reduced movement/attack speed on Stimmed Marauders and this stim research nerf is not enough really.)
Why so much hate on marine based early rushes? This nerf to bunkers is going to make it almost impossible to offensive bunker at 6 minutes now. It was already tight + usually lost a SCV or two when I bunker rushed, now it's going to be near impossible.
And the stim pack - seriously..why?! It was pretty "Fair" already. A decent toss player could still sentry block an early timed stim rush.
As a terran player, with every patch, I feel more pressured to go abuse/cookie cut into MMM balls because it basically requires no micro and forces you to macro. Being a SC1 veteran and a siege tank fanatic, this just....really erks me.
How about this?
If they want to nerf MMM balls... just remove Medivacs and put the medic back in along with the default dropship.
This will make healing the "Ball" much harder, and have obvious consequences of some units not in healing range + more cargo space in the dropships taken by medics. Either that or make medivac heal mode a toggle mode like Siege tanks into siege mode. This will hamper the "Marauder drop + stim + shaft your expansion + run away" tactics.
I think the bunker+ is supposed to address the bunker wall terrans make on one's ramp a tiny bit?
MMM balls does so much DPS on an area over any other unit combo in the game. This of course considering the flow of the game, not just the unit tester. With +HP, marauder slow, and flying healing centers, MMM balls are too much.
Restoring the medic will at least reduce the amount of firepower a group of MM can launch at an area since medics take those spots. Medics are better over medivacs since it provides:
1. Tension in production. Barracks will have to cut from production of damage dealers for healers.
2. Area and DPS.
3. Micro management.
4. Squad composition.
IMO. So, I would agree.
There's too much being said here atm for me to sort through i and quote etc, ill only give my perspective for now:
1: its PTR. chill the fuck out; if a change proves horrible, it wont pass.
2: try harder to keep a constructive mindset; if you dont see or understand the basis for a change, ask about it. if you disagree with the supposed reasoning for the change, then IMO thats your problem; keeping on whining about it is even more pointless than any previous whining; the direction of these changes says something about witch problems blizzard has identified (and what type of changes they're willing to use to address them)
3: some details....
Kaydarian amulet upgrade removal. This upgrade arguably made Gateway based armies too versatile and strong lategame; didnt it generally feel a bit far-fetched to stay with or go back to making Colossi once your HT tech was fully researched? ... not to mention sentries!
The real change here, from my perspective, will be that Protoss players cant keep their momentum swinging by "waping in storms" ... viewed in a vacuum, this is obviously a disadvantage, a ibig nerf. but looking at how the game plays out in general, long term, including mapchanges and nerfs to T (and Z?) to balance it out if needed (keeping a relativistic mindset), i think it can help contribute to richer more varied gameplay; it will no logner be the case that "oh he's got amulet finished now, so this P will ez sink 50% of all gas ever made into HT's and never make a single sentry again"
Vortex nerf: this looks like a knee-jerk "OMG archon toilet is broken" kind of nerf.. 1.5 second invulnerability sounds excessive; hard for the vortex user to be at all certain of positive outcome. maybe 0.5 or even less invulnerability time is enough to limit the instant AoE-stacking insaity of the archon-toilet effect?
Fungal changes: looks like an interesting direction for this spell, but as is, the relatively slow speed of the projectile (and it being block-able by PDD?)seems to fundamentally change the nature of it, to the extent that i cant hope to catch mutas or blink stalkers with it with good rate of sucess, and accuracy vs stimmed infantry or any air unit will be significantly affected. it seems a bit dramatic; i cant helpb being biased here, im hoping for an incresaed projectile speed, even if teh near-isntant effect similar to EMP is unreasonable.Hidden Content:
... Terrans got nerfed bunker buildtime and slower stimpack research. i think they'll manage.. considering the Amulet removal for P im somewhat surprised EMP wasnt touched. i dont even play PvT or TvP though so im ignorant on this.
... The map-scape is changing towards more large maps. Arguably this is in favour of warpgate capable protosses in PvT and that might be a reason for P's to be getting the short end of the stick here. Hopefully, time, PTR testing and related debate, will tell....
This patch will be HUGE! :D
Peace.
Todie, it's funny that you should tell people off for 'whining'. I don't see what's wrong with complaining about a certain balance change, as long as you back it up with reasons. Why would people have to be meek question-askers instead? Pretty much kills all discussion. I think what you call whining is actually called making arguments, and it's how people try to change other people's viewpoints through a dialectic exchange of arguments. Your 'constructive' question-asking just means that people have to humbly ask pre-approved figures of 'wisdom' or 'authority' why a certain change is made and then swallow the answer.
Sorry for the OT, but it always pisses me off when people try to quell discussion under the pretence of promoting constructive discussions, maturity or respect. So whine all you want, as long as you say why, not just OMG WTF IMBA.
Anyway, OT: it seems to me that, overall, zerg gains most from the HT buff because it greatly increases the survivability of Hydralisks on the battlefield, which means an insane increase in DPS (like someone said, Collossi are slaughtered by Corruptors).
While I agree that protoss suffers a lot in reaction time to terran drops, HT's were not easy to use against terran anyway because of ghosts (wait, that means it even sucks more now).
As for the increase in bunker and stim time, I would say it's inadequate to address Marauder dps imbalance and just shafts bunker rushes, which are fun to do imo (terran player).
@Todie
The new current large maps are not that good for PvT actually. Especially shattered temple with the huge huge wide open area. And any tech choice for toss; air/colossi/HTs prefer tighter walkways to forcefield and kill off armies with AOE or more range,etc. But with these new wide open maps protoss armies can get flanked very easily. Most of the watchtowers don't give good vision on flanking paths.
Perhaps i'll try tons of observers all over the map and mass phoenixes against terran. Perhaps i'll try an air composition against terran. But still......blizzard needs to give some love to the archon. Considering toss has problems with bio and archons do bonus to bio should make sense to make archons against terran. But a 50min/50gas upgrade called concussive shells makes the archon almost useless.
i didnt mean to imply everyone here is whining.. i just meant to say that i think it'd be easier to make coherent sense with a discussion about possible upcoming changes, if people could at least presume the direction of the changes and the problems that need addressing. fundamentally disagreeing with what the problems are will IMO mainly derail discussion; everyone has and will keep their unique perspective, but i still think its possible to take a step back and put on the blue glasses.. a discussion about where this PTR goes can be more focused and constructive than the general always ongoing one about witch balance problems exist and witch are most important.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sietsh-Tenk
Good point.Quote:
it seems to me that, overall, zerg gains most from the HT buff because it greatly increases the survivability of Hydralisks on the battlefield, which means an insane increase in DPS (like someone said, Collossi are slaughtered by Corruptors).
This does make sense. Again, im a layman in the matchup. but i did see some resonably fresh screencap of Dayvie saying they considered removing the amulet upgrade because it seemed too strong on the new maps.Quote:
Originally Posted by JackhammerIV
... this sint some end-all-discussion type of point im trying to make, but its a clear indication that at least, this was a conributing reason for the change.Hidden Content:
on the subject of drops, i noticted these among the many "gameplay fixes"
my interpretation of this is that medivacs can no longer heal while unoading. Am i correct in this? will this have any significant impact? maybe medivacs rarely receive the attack-move command while droping anyway; just the move command? so there wont be any difference from before?Quote:
Orders issued to unload units from a Medivac onto itself can now be canceled if the Medivac is scanning for units to heal.
Possibly, think it can buy the player defending a drop a few seconds of leeway; ability to kill some untis before the healing starts - IF hes right ontop of the drop as it ocurs. this especially goes for marine-heavy drops, as 8 units take longer to drop than 4... its not much but, its still a welcome help vs terran drops.
I like all the changes.
im reaaaaally interested in the achievements fix :D!!!
Not sure about medivac unloading and healing. Not like we have PTR on the EU servers yet. Maybe someone on the NA server can test it out.
The thing with the amulet was it's too big a nerf to HTs. 45 secs of waiting around with a HT to gain energy. And despite how everyone says "Oh it's the same as the time it takes an infestor or ghost to build" they forget one thing. The HT is not safely waiting inside an egg or building. Instead it's out on the field just asking to be sniped.
I thought the first time you mentioned that was a typo. The amulet only adds 25+ energy. Therefore, 25 in-game seconds but less than that if you're playing on fastest.Quote:
Originally Posted by JackhammerIV
Tychus people seem to not get something. Energy regen is not 1 energy per sec. It's like 0.5 ish every second. The exact time is like 44.44 game secs to get 25 energy.
EDIT: http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/High...tarCraft_II%29
Here's the proof. The exact regen is 0.5625 energy/game sec.
Additionally the only thing with an energy regen of 1 per second is the point defense drone.
http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Point_defense_drone
Right now its just too beneficial to protoss, its instant storm, due to warp-in of course. If warp-in didn't exist this won't be problem since you have a high build time on units.Quote:
Originally Posted by JackhammerIV
I for once think this is good balance, though the research for storm should be faster.
Just an idea, but what about keeping the Amulet upgrade, but changing it to increase energy regen for HT by 33% or something like. Would that work? It would mean no instant storms, but generally better HT.Quote:
Originally Posted by JackhammerIV
Exactly baneling that's a nerf that would be acceptable to most protoss. Even Jinro said nerfing it that way would be better than what blizzard did. But he wanted just a lower energy increase. Jinro noted that a toss can't see like a big army moving from across the map and warp in a HT to have storm in time to defend.
If they reduced the starting energy bonus or made it a faster regen rate such that it takes 10-20 game secs to get enough energy for storm then there wouldn't be any insta warp-in storms. But toss can still warp in HTs in time to have storm to defend. The exact way to change it needs to be tested though. Perhaps using a map like metalopolis and seeing how long it takes an army to get to your natural from cross positions.
Going with a 33% regen rate makes the regen 0.75 energy/sec so it takes 33.33 secs to get enough energy from storm. A bit slow to be able to warp in templar to defend an incoming push. If it was like 25 energy in 25 secs so 1 energy/sec then it'd feel better as toss defending. But it would mean from 0 to 75 energy it takes 75 secs instead of the current 133.33 secs. Almost a full minute earlier. Toss would be much more careful keeping templar alive. And the decision to keep templar to gain energy or just morph into archon becomes harder. But it might cause a situation where toss keeps alive lots of their templar and terran has a hard time if they can't kill the templar off. So any kind of energy regen buff instead of +starting energy might not work out so well to nerf protoss late game versus terran/zerg.
The best thing would be just +20 energy from amulet and making the upgrade cheaper or finish faster to reflect it. Then there'd be an 8.88 second delay from warping in a templar and it storming. Enough time to warp in a templar near the start of a battle and using it to storm as the armies engage. No insta warp in storm and no warp in templars to keep pushing back terran with insta storms available.
They couldn't have nerfed it a little.
Why have they removed so much variety from the game? The upgrade in SC1 allowed more storms but not instant. It gave you 62 and added 50 to the max. A much better solution.
Dustin Browder is just piss poor at game design. SC2 feels a lot more like SC1 mixed in with CNC than anything.
Instant storms is only OP because of the circumstances in which HT can be created. I somewhat feel instead of a nerf to HT, they should boost other casters to possibly be as effective as Instant-warp in HT's.
The other possibility is capping a no-cast timer on HT after warp, say because of 'Warp Sickness' they can't focus a psi storm in the first 10 seconds.
That's pretty brilliant. Though not very elegant and rather out of tune with most other SC gameplay mechanics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Triceron
i suspect blizz wants to keep a consistency among the caster upgrades;all races had a +25 sntarting energy upgrade...
i think this is kind of getting in the way here, indeed, a buff to HT energy regen as replacement for the amulet seems reasonable. such an upgrade could also be shared with sentries.. problem is, every other unit has the exact same energy region.. allowing an exception might be perceived as an iffy notion.
about the "warpin sickness" idea, its good, but its an arbitrary exception of a kind that blizzard design doesnt take kindly to.
IF they can consider any variation in the +energy upgrade, i'd purpose one that is at like +15 starting energy, shared by snetries (or even +10, shared by phoenii too) .. this creates the same effect as a warpin sickness when it comes to storm, as 10-15 energy to regenerate constitues a significant delay for "warpin storms" in direct contact with battle.
Don't freak out about the balance changes. That's the whole point of the PTR to test it out. I can't remember specifics now but the last balance patch had changes in the PTR that didn't make the cut to release.
This. Infestor's Fungal couldn't hit Air, and that wasn't released. They would probably do something like Baneling said, change Amulet upgrade, so it increase the energy regen, there is actually no reason for HTs to be the only casters that don't have some energy buffs, while they are really important. Both in PvZ and PvT.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maul
The comments by pros I mentioned and somewhat transcribed is available here:
http://www.justin.tv/rootcatz/b/280412952
The panel included:
ROOTCatZ [Zerg], EGAxslav [Protoss], EGStrifeCro [Zerg], FnaticMSIGretorp [Terran], FXOSheth [Zerg]
Talked about both the patch changes and about the maps. I'll put this same link on the ladder map changes thread.
We need a Hitler parody.
Quote:
My fuhrer, though stim packs and bunkers have received an inconsequential increase in build time, the latest PTR changes do not contain the terran nerfs we were hoping for.
Ah well, at least we can still use high templar to combat bio-balls. *motions fingers
My fuhrer....high templar...
High Templar will no longer have the Khaydarin Amulet upgrade. After a Terran EMPs all your high templar in one click, you will not be able to warp in any more that have energy for a storm.
Everybody who got to master league by switching to Terran, please leave the room.
^ BRILLIANT!
Someone! Make it so!
extend it to a full one or cut the video short to fit it, either way, that shit would top reddit for a week!
Right, like FG not hitting air - cant remember the other right now.Quote:
the last balance patch had changes in the PTR that didn't make the cut to release.
Bunker build time was decreased. *shudders*Quote:
Originally Posted by Caliban113
Haha noooo. I think we've all seen enough versions of that clip to be able to play it in our heads by now :PQuote:
Originally Posted by TychusFindlay
Regarding instant storm - why not just lower the +energy that the upgrade gives? It currently gets you your 75 energy for storm so that you can use it right away. Just lower the number so that you spawn with 70 energy instead. You can still warp in HTs that will be usable very quickly, but you can't completely negate a marine drop unless you spot it in advance.
Heh, while I gues that diamon/masters Protoss might find a good way to live without the amulet. Even though it will cost them dearly and it will probably make the usage of Archons even less frequent - who would "waste" a perfectly useful HT if a new one can't be warped with an energy ready.
BUT for Protoss below these levels this is a killer. Who do you expect a bronze-gold protoss to defend, let's say a main a natural and 2 more exps (or even 1) agains the muta? Or what is one supposed to do vs unexpected air raid by void rays / banshee - march his army across the map? Before the patch you could buy yourself some time with a couple of cannons and warped HTs, and now... spam cannons like there's no tomorrow?
Bliz team must be thinking playing Toss isn't complicated anough and is all around A+Move or something.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maul
Lies and deceit from the pits of Hell.