Zerg ultimate.

Hi , i know i am new here, I hope ill be welcome , but now lets go to the point in question:
Protoss has the mothership , which has the best spells in-game, they are gamebreakers if used well.
Terran has nukes, a really good player like TLO can make nukes work really good.

Zerg has ..........? i believe that nydus is the equal to the terran and protoss ultimate , but they are expensive, they cost minerals and gas to summon a new worm(aswell as time and space in the ground to morph in) , it is like a mass recall but slower and with mineral/gas Cost...
Shouldn't zerg have a better ultimate?(having in mind how underpowered zerg is)
If it should , which one would you suggest?
if it shouldn't ,why not?


PS:Sorry about the bad english , it is not my native language.

Well zerg have infestors. Can reveal cloaked units with fungal. Can spawn infested terrans which do pretty good damage. Can control enemy units with neural parasite. The infestor is a real game changer. The only unit immune to its spells is the ultralisk. Sounds like a pretty awesome unit to me.:P A zerg ultimate unit. Plus instead of saying nuke is a terran ultimate unit might as well say ghost seeing as how nuke is the ghost's ability.:P

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Well zerg have infestors. Can reveal cloaked units with fungal. Can spawn infested terrans which do pretty good damage. Can control enemy units with neural parasite. The infestor is a real game changer. The only unit immune to its spells is the ultralisk. Sounds like a pretty awesome unit to me.:P A zerg ultimate unit. Plus instead of saying nuke is a terran ultimate unit might as well say ghost seeing as how nuke is the ghost's ability.:P

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Ghost = High templar = infestor.

I do agree that the infested terrrans Dps is one of the best in the game , as it does more damage than a marine(even both full upgraded)
You have to build nukes to use them, and remmember in the old broodwar days i think it cost Supply still better than any infestor hability(at least more destructive).
Fungal growth equals Storm and EMP shockweave , i think the only one that dosn't reveal cloak units is Psi storm ( i could be wrong do).
Neural parasite = Feedback = Sniper round.
Not so effective , as infestors are a very expensive unit , if it get's sniped by the rest of the units arround you just wasted alot , Feedback and sniper round aren't that much risky as the neural parasite.

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Originally Posted by YourockLoL

Hi , i know i am new here, I hope ill be welcome , but now lets go to the point in question:
Protoss has the mothership , which has the best spells in-game, they are gamebreakers if used well.
Terran has nukes, a really good player like TLO can make nukes work really good.

Zerg has ..........? i believe that nydus is the equal to the terran and protoss ultimate , but they are expensive, they cost minerals and gas to summon a new worm(aswell as time and space in the ground to morph in) , it is like a mass recall but slower and with mineral/gas Cost...
Shouldn't zerg have a better ultimate?(having in mind how underpowered zerg is)
If it should , which one would you suggest?
if it shouldn't ,why not?


PS:Sorry about the bad english , it is not my native language.

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Hi.

I think we should all be very careful when speaking of imbalances. Yes, there's a lot of people out there, complaining about how weak the zerg are etc.

Personally, I don't think that I'm at the level of gameplay, where any kind of imbalance is the sole reason for me winning a game. And i think it's like that for a lot of people. And still these people complain about how zerg are " weak, pathetic " and what not, just cause progamers ( Like Idra ) say so.

That being said, I'm not saying that there isn't maybe a problem. I'm just saying, that i think people are slightly too fast in blaming a loss on imbalance.

Anyway, I don't mean to derail this thread into a talk about wether the zergs are underpowered or not.

The fact is, that these so called " ultimates " have nothing to do with it. I have seen very few games where a mothership or a nuke played a huge role, in terms of a win. And from what I've been reading ( Protoss player myself ), the zergs are weak early game, not late game.

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Originally Posted by YourockLoL

Ghost = High templar = infestor.

I do agree that the infested terrrans Dps is one of the best in the game , as it does more damage than a marine(even both full upgraded)
You have to build nukes to use them, and remmember in the old broodwar days i think it cost Supply still better than any infestor hability(at least more destructive).
Fungal growth equals Storm and EMP shockweave , i think the only one that dosn't reveal cloak units is Psi storm ( i could be wrong do).
Neural parasite = Feedback = Sniper round.
Not so effective , as infestors are a very expensive unit , if it get's sniped by the rest of the units arround you just wasted alot , Feedback and sniper round aren't that much risky as the neural parasite.

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Okay, this is one of the most retarded things that I've read in a long time.

"Fungal growth equals Storm and EMP shockweave"
What? I don't understand how you can compare these three? The races in SC2 are supposed to be different, and not to be the same units with a different name/model/animation.

Fungal growth stops units from moving, while dealing damage over a longer period of time. Storm deals a shitload of damage in a relatively short amount of time, while EMP's takes away shields and energy.

"Neural parasite = Feedback = Sniper round."

Again, i completely fail to see your point. How can you even think like this?

@yourocklol:
neural parasite is awesome vs a colossus

@yourocklol
You're right in that storm doesn't reveal cloaked units. But the thing snipe or storm can't kill off a key unit like tanks/colossus easily. You should check out recent Day9 daily funday monday encore with rootCatz. Going mass queens with infestors. Just keep transfusing the infestors and keep them alive. They are all basically equal like you said.

Ghost= HT= Infestor
The key spellcasters for each race.

If you don't wanna consider spellcasters then would be mothership for protoss. Planetary fortress for terran. Nydus worm for zerg. They each sort of reflect the playstyles of the races. Mothership to support the main army or protect a key expansion with recall. Planetary fortress to just stop ground attacks along certain lanes. Nydus worm to let the whole zerg army move quickly across the map.

@Dropsonic
You kinda derailed it a bit with your post. Hopefully it doesn't bring up a lot of zerg QQ.

EDIT: Oh and can't simply say zerg is strong late game. Try asking a zerg to balance roach/hydra/corruptor/spinecrawler in PvZ or to do the ultralisk-broodlord tech switch in TvZ. Not that easy.

And about the "equals" you were having fault with from yourocklol. I don't find fault with that. It's the way the spellcasters were made. One AOE attack (fungal/emp/storm) and one targetted unit attack (NP/feedback/snipe). Wouldn't call using the "equals" for those retarded. It's grouping together the AOE attacks and the single target attacks. They're obviously different but they all come under the same groups. And about the NP being more risky. The infestor has to stand still to use it. The other spellcasters can cast their single unit spells and run.

@YourockLol
Another thing about you saying nydus is like recall but slower, etc. Remember one thing. Recall costs energy and typically can't be done in quick succession. Zerg is a race that expands easily so they can get more bases and resources than the other races. You can use multiple nydus worms at once in different locations. With a mothership you can only recall to the mothership.

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Hi.

I think we should all be very careful when speaking of imbalances. Yes, there's a lot of people out there, complaining about how weak the zerg are etc.

Personally, I don't think that I'm at the level of gameplay, where any kind of imbalance is the sole reason for me winning a game. And i think it's like that for a lot of people. And still these people complain about how zerg are " weak, pathetic " and what not, just cause progamers ( Like Idra ) say so.

That being said, I'm not saying that there isn't maybe a problem. I'm just saying, that i think people are slightly too fast in blaming a loss on imbalance.

Anyway, I don't mean to derail this thread into a talk about wether the zergs are underpowered or not.

The fact is, that these so called " ultimates " have nothing to do with it. I have seen very few games where a mothership or a nuke played a huge role, in terms of a win. And from what I've been reading ( Protoss player myself ), the zergs are weak early game, not late game.

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as i said on another post reply ,on the "expansions units" , i agree with you, Zergs lategame is awesome , but it's missing something, as Zerg late game can't deal with terran massive mech lateGame , and i am 100% sure of that... zerg is missing a midgame assault unit , and that ultimate can cover it , dealing with the zergs problems.(and i am curious how pro players[Zerg players] can make use of an ultimate unit)

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@yourocklol:
neural parasite is awesome vs a colossus

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3 well microed stalkers make you lost alot of gas by sniping your infestor.

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You're right in that storm doesn't reveal cloaked units. But the thing snipe or storm can't kill off a key unit like tanks/colossus easily. You should check out recent Day9 daily funday monday encore with rootCatz. Going mass queens with infestors. Just keep transfusing the infestors and keep them alive. They are all basically equal like you said.

Ghost= HT= Infestor
The key spellcasters for each race.

If you don't wanna consider spellcasters then would be mothership for protoss. Planetary fortress for terran. Nydus worm for zerg. They each sort of reflect the playstyles of the races. Mothership to support the main army or protect a key expansion with recall. Planetary fortress to just stop ground attacks along certain lanes. Nydus worm to let the whole zerg army move quickly across the map

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i didn't say that i do not want to consider spellcasters , but Infestor isn't an ultimate , as it's lower tier than a mothership.
And nydus worm requires time to build, Minerals , gas , Sight on the Zone, and it transport 1unit per time unless you have more than 1 nydus , which cost you more , meanwhile the mass recall is free , just energy and the cost of the initial mothership.



I have to go for now , tomorrow i keep with the responses and replys.

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Originally Posted by YourockLoL

3 well microed stalkers make you lost alot of gas by sniping your infestor.

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If you don't put your infestors behind your army, this is probably true.

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Originally Posted by YourockLoL

i didn't say that i do not want to consider spellcasters , but Infestor isn't an ultimate , as it's lower tier than a mothership.
And nydus worm requires time to build, Minerals , gas , Sight on the Zone, and it transport 1unit per time unless you have more than 1 nydus , which cost you more , meanwhile the mass recall is free , just energy and the cost of the initial mothership.

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I think you should stop comparing units to the mothership. The unit is so rarely used, that i barely notice it ingame. Unless i 2v2 of course.

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Originally Posted by YourockLoL

i didn't say that i do not want to consider spellcasters , but Infestor isn't an ultimate , as it's lower tier than a mothership.
And nydus worm requires time to build, Minerals , gas , Sight on the Zone, and it transport 1unit per time unless you have more than 1 nydus , which cost you more , meanwhile the mass recall is free , just energy and the cost of the initial mothership.

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You misunderstood me. I'm saying the key spellcasters are some of the "ultimate units". There's obviously more than one. You can consider colossus, siege tanks, broodlords, etc ultimate units. Ultimate in the sense that they're really good and are tech units and in the late game you want more of them and less of lower tier units. Some units are just so good they can be ultimate without having to be the "highest tier". If you wanna go top tier units then the ultimate units are infestor, broodlord, ultralisk, carrier, mothership, dark templar, high templar, colossus, thor, battlecruiser, ghost(maybe).

And about mothership/nydus argument. How long does it take to get 1 mothership?? How long does it take to get a nydus?? The point of the nydus is that you have more than 1 of them. Mothership just only have 1. If you can have more nyduses then obviously you'll do the things like have sight, slow unload, costs resources etc or it would be completely overpowered.

EDIT: And really colossi right now are more the ultimate unit for protoss than the mothership. They do really good damage with splash and long range. A mothership on full energy can case 2 vortexes/mass recalls. But just 1 ghost of 1 HT can just take away all the mothership's energy and it becomes just a big slow target. Hmmmm...yourocklol your profile says gold league. Kinda explains why you started the thread talking about motherships and nukes.:P It's been a really long time since I've seen a mothership or nuke in ladder play but I haven't been playing much lately.

I don't think the Zerg needs an "ultimate" nor do I really think any of the races has a true ultimate by the definition that opened this thread. The MS's speed makes it a liability to use in the open field every bit as much as the corruptor, making vortex potentially costly, especially vs. vikings. Because of the changes in certain building hitpoints, nukes are not as devastating as they used to be, nor are they quite as easy to use now, though using one on an opposing terran's front door to emulate a baneling bust on his suppys before sending in your main army can be painful.

Alright, that "Top Tier" is the Broodlord, Carrier, Battlecruiser trio, just sayin'.

As for the topic. The Ultimate is one of the special traits of the Protoss that Blizzard tried to make work.

In my opinion, it didn't work out so well, but that's just me. The whole idea behind starcraft is to have three quite different rances against each-other. No mirrors. Well, no straight-angleled ones, anyways. Even if giving everyone an Ultimate would be a good idea, I doubt Blizzard would go with that, given how even their current one isn't used that much.

While I DO agree that Zerg are lacking somewhat to the other races diversity-wise, I'm hoping the expansion will fix that. ^^

As for Nyduses, they're cute, but I stoped using them past Beta. They just don't seem to be worth the effort that much...

Zerg are about swarming in numbers. An Ultimate similiar to the Mothership would be the antithesis of that.

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Originally Posted by TychusFindlay

Zerg are about swarming in numbers. An Ultimate similiar to the Mothership would be the antithesis of that.

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Then the Zerg ultimate should be the pinnacle of swarming numbers...maybe something that spawns a high number of units? Kinda like the Brood Lord...

And should this be in the strat section?

Has anyone mentioned the Raven yet? That thing can reveal cloaked units, point defense drone, seeker missile, auto turret. If your talking about comparisons then lets say that
Auto turret = infested terran
seeker missle = psi storm = emp = fungal growth
point defense drone = guardian shield
I know that these spells can't really be compared. Just making sure the Raven is noticed in this thread.

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Originally Posted by Arkalis

Then the Zerg ultimate should be the pinnacle of swarming numbers...maybe something that spawns a high number of units? Kinda like the Brood Lord...

And should this be in the strat section?

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It would still be one powerful unit.

A macro mechanic then.

.... Just what the game needs ...

Well, the best I can come up with for "mechanic" instead of unit would be a T3 tech research that would damage every enemy unit on creep...


But come on, that would be ridicculus, no? :D

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You misunderstood me. I'm saying the key spellcasters are some of the "ultimate units". There's obviously more than one. You can consider colossus, siege tanks, broodlords, etc ultimate units. Ultimate in the sense that they're really good and are tech units and in the late game you want more of them and less of lower tier units. Some units are just so good they can be ultimate without having to be the "highest tier". If you wanna go top tier units then the ultimate units are infestor, broodlord, ultralisk, carrier, mothership, dark templar, high templar, colossus, thor, battlecruiser, ghost(maybe).

And about mothership/nydus argument. How long does it take to get 1 mothership?? How long does it take to get a nydus?? The point of the nydus is that you have more than 1 of them. Mothership just only have 1. If you can have more nyduses then obviously you'll do the things like have sight, slow unload, costs resources etc or it would be completely overpowered.

EDIT: And really colossi right now are more the ultimate unit for protoss than the mothership. They do really good damage with splash and long range. A mothership on full energy can case 2 vortexes/mass recalls. But just 1 ghost of 1 HT can just take away all the mothership's energy and it becomes just a big slow target. Hmmmm...yourocklol your profile says gold league. Kinda explains why you started the thread talking about motherships and nukes.:P It's been a really long time since I've seen a mothership or nuke in ladder play but I haven't been playing much lately.

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I know what you mean about the spellcasters, i agree that infestors are great , i used to lock down expansions with infested terrans just by bringing 1 overlord there to spawn creep so the infested terrans could give chase to a flying orbital command.

You can chronoboost the mothership, making it faster to spawn , you can have alot of nydus , because 1 initial building can spawn alot of worms, but if the building gets sniped with your units inside, you just lost alot of units mothership recall has half of the risk(EMP or Feedback , which can't happend in ZvP)

Lets think for a moment about units:
i consider ultimates only game breaker units or spells
Colossi , Ultralisk , thors , those are massives ( i do know that the mothership is a masive aswell , but is an unique unit)
Zerg needs 2 things , and only 2 things(either one or the other) to be balanced(and i know i took the thread to the balance issue/talk):
1)Something to lock down assault units such as Tanks , Thors , Colossi, immortals , the best assault units vs zerg are the siege tanks + the thors , dealing with siege tanks(of course you can throw a billon of zerglings to deal with the mech , but is a big loss, aswell as corruptors for the colossi , the colossi is the only assault unit that can be counter well by zerg players) in the middle game is sooo hard for a zerg player, so what i am thinking is: lets give zerg something that they can bring into mid game if the player rushes to tech it, that can counter those type of mech.But in order to not be overpowered it can't be a regular unit cuz if a zerg unit can absorv the damage from a tank then is pretty much imbalanced, and now is when it comes to mind the ultralisk, but all the other ground massive units are Ranged which makes the slow ultralisk weak, because when it gets to the target it's already on half HP.So having an ultimate that can lockdown the mech at least for 10 seconds is all that a zerg player needs.
2)Give the zerg a very effective assault unit , but really expensive (even with high cost but with better quality than an ultralisk)

Regarding broodlords , those are really Gas intensive units, which makes hard to give air support to them , you need a really high economy to morph in corruptors at the same time that you are producing broodlords out of corruptors that you already have, cuz if you don't have air superiority join in the fight with the broodlords , they eventually die.

Regarding my ladder position , i am more of a 2v2 player , and i do not have that much time to ladder.

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Has anyone mentioned the Raven yet? That thing can reveal cloaked units, point defense drone, seeker missile, auto turret. If your talking about comparisons then lets say that
Auto turret = infested terran
seeker missle = psi storm = emp = fungal growth
point defense drone = guardian shield
I know that these spells can't really be compared. Just making sure the Raven is noticed in this thread.

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thanks you , i completly forgot about ravens , even do i use them alot, they are deadly on 2v2 with the seeker misile and strong defensive units with that PDD , aswell as annoying with the turrets.
and the sentry , the good old sentry , sooo overpowered in ZvP early/ mid game.

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Alright, that "Top Tier" is the Broodlord, Carrier, Battlecruiser trio, just sayin'.

As for the topic. The Ultimate is one of the special traits of the Protoss that Blizzard tried to make work.

In my opinion, it didn't work out so well, but that's just me. The whole idea behind starcraft is to have three quite different rances against each-other. No mirrors. Well, no straight-angleled ones, anyways. Even if giving everyone an Ultimate would be a good idea, I doubt Blizzard would go with that, given how even their current one isn't used that much.

While I DO agree that Zerg are lacking somewhat to the other races diversity-wise, I'm hoping the expansion will fix that. ^^

As for Nyduses, they're cute, but I stoped using them past Beta. They just don't seem to be worth the effort that much...

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i agree on almost every point , but the mothership in the hands of an expert like KiWikaki is lethal.

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But just 1 ghost of 1 HT can just take away all the mothership's energy and it becomes just a big slow target

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having in mind that we are taling about Zvs ... everything , so there will be no EMP or Feedback on the mothership when it comes to ZvP , the only thing in zerg favours is neural parasite on the mothership , which is hard to make since it's a flying ranged unit and it's slow , so it will be on the back of the army.

PS: once again i apologize for my english.

I get what you're saying but really you can just cast NP on the mothership and use up all it's energy before it goes back into protoss control. Here's the day9 daily about mass queens from rootcatz. You should watch it.
http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/4737515/

Ultralisk queen or broodlord queen is pretty strong. Or any zerg unit mix with queens. Blizzard took the time to give zerg a medic unit with a good amount of hitpoints that can heal 125hp at once. So why not just use it. Just watch how many units catz killed with a few ultras and a lot of queens. If the ultras lose half their health advancing to the target no problem. Transfuse and ultras back at full health. And keep transfusing then they just won't die. Looks strong enough that going ghost/HT might become necessary if this tactic becomes common late game.

It is quite rediculus non-zerg players to dare speak about zerg.
We are the most underpowered race with the most hard to use macromechanics and ofcourse the worst ones.

For a zerg to equal another race player he must be better than his opponent.

The strongest and mot effective ultimate unit for zerg atm is the Broodlord.
Ultras can't be effective while tier 50 mineral marines with stim are around.
This game is broken. End of story.

Ok......then i guess this is just another zerg QQ thread in the making. Where zerg players just all agree how UP zerg is. In my opinion I thought that's the whole point of the zerg race. Weak but more easily massed units to slowly overwhelm the opponent. Guess I'm wrong about that since i'm not a zerg player. Easiest way to reduce QQ i guess is to remove larve inject, beef up every single zerg unit with more attack power, hit points and armor and increase their build time. Make it a race with stronger units that are meant to survive like the protoss and terrans.

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Ok......then i guess this is just another zerg QQ thread in the making. Where zerg players just all agree how UP zerg is. In my opinion I thought that's the whole point of the zerg race. Weak but more easily massed units to slowly overwhelm the opponent. Guess I'm wrong about that since i'm not a zerg player. Easiest way to reduce QQ i guess is to remove larve inject, beef up every single zerg unit with more attack power, hit points and armor and increase their build time. Make it a race with stronger units that are meant to survive like the protoss and terrans.

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zerg , slowly underwhelm? you serious?...... a terran player will slowly underwhelm you pushing with Tanks , gaining all the map for itself , cuz 1 unit can destroy 12312 zergs units , example Siege tanks.

Yes yourocklol. Just watch pros playing with someone analytical like Artosis or Day9 casting.
"Oh the zerg is killing off the marines so that the broodlords building now will be more effective."
"Oh the zerg is killing off all the tanks so the terran can't advance or else banelings will just destroy his whole infantry army."
"The zerg is killing off the thors and marines so that he can retreat his ground force and kill off the tanks with mutalisks."

Watching all those games and laddering against zerg gives me the sense that that is how zerg functions as a race. They sacrifice their units to kill key units so the next wave becomes more effective. Then the next wave kills more key units so the third wave becomes more effective. Then they keep doing this until the opponent has nothing left and gets steamrolled. That's just how it feels to me that zerg functions. It's a style that works best in long long maps with very far spawn positions.

And one thing about your english. It's "overwhelm" same like I used in the quote you used. "Underwhelm" means the opposite. Just try to remember that if you wanna improve your english.

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Yes yourocklol. Just watch pros playing with someone analytical like Artosis or Day9 casting.
"Oh the zerg is killing off the marines so that the broodlords building now will be more effective."
"Oh the zerg is killing off all the tanks so the terran can't advance or else banelings will just destroy his whole infantry army."
"The zerg is killing off the thors and marines so that he can retreat his ground force and kill off the tanks with mutalisks."

Watching all those games and laddering against zerg gives me the sense that that is how zerg functions as a race. They sacrifice their units to kill key units so the next wave becomes more effective. Then the next wave kills more key units so the third wave becomes more effective. Then they keep doing this until the opponent has nothing left and gets steamrolled. That's just how it feels to me that zerg functions. It's a style that works best in long long maps with very far spawn positions.

And one thing about your english. It's "overwhelm" same like I used in the quote you used. "Underwhelm" means the opposite. Just try to remember that if you wanna improve your english.

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i do apologyze for any mystakes , i mean "overwhelm" , i was writing that on work , so i gotta be fast with the typing not being my native language it's hard to type fast.

You can't suicide units , that's not how it works , you have to be really careful when pushing , cuz 1 well placed siege tank , can take half of your units down in 2 shoots... even knowing that your oponent has siege tanks , you can't engage directly in a fight with those units , and there are no more units in the game except for terran mech where you can't engage cuz you know that tier 2 units will destroy your army in half of a second, you have to multitask twice as the terran in order to bypass those tanks without taking alot of damage...
zergs need something to push on the mech at least disabling it for 10 seconds , those are game breakers , and i am sure that if something like that gets in the game , good terran players will be able to avoid that "mech disable spell" or w/e should be added to balance the match.

@yourocklol
For me I've always thought zerg is the race where suiciding units is common IF done for the right reasons. Zerg is hard to get that "perfect" unit composition for late game max army situations. The other races can get that easier. That plus the way larva and how zerg can expo easier gives me the feeling of the multiple wave suicide units to kill key units playstyle.

Like you max out and you see the terran's army and you say...uh oh his army composition is better than mine with lots of thors and siege tanks. And the map is like shakuras plateau. Then i imagine the terran is slowly preparing to move out. Then zerg gets upgrades and decides what units he would like to use to kill terran's army while still being maxed. Prepare the tech and larva to make the units. Then the zerg parks his whole army on the terran's half of the map near his expo or around the center location of the map.

Then the terran moves out and zerg just rushes everything in. Focuses down the key units: thors and siege tanks. Zerg has been maxed for some time with resources and larva saved up. As zerg starts to lose supply just keep making units off hatcheries. Inject more larva. Then the first max army of zerg dies. Terran army is injured. Then second wave of zerg units all attack while terran is still around halfway across the map. Kill more key units while making more units to replace lost units. Terran army still injured. Third wave comes and the terran army is broken then the zerg army rushes to terran's base with the fourth wave building and rallied. Then zerg steamrolls terran.

That's how I imagine zerg playstyle works. Not one big wave to kill the enemy. But using multiple waves to slowly overwhelm opponents.

EDIT: A nice example I can think of is like MarineKing's first game doing the marine splitting on shakuras in like GSL2 i believe. Basically both sides were doing what I imagine is the "Zerg style". Keep pumping out units and slowly wear down the opponent and win. Not with the first wave but with perhaps 4th wave or more. They kept trading units over and over and over again. And slowly you could see one side got closer to the other's side of the map then finally moved in for the kill.