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2 things quickly : The artifacts power that saved Kerrigan is only a side effect of something much mroe sinister that the artifact is capable of. So it is not just a convinient tool that Raynor could use.Quote:
Originally Posted by solidsamurai
The other is that if you want to read something starcraft related, but on a smaller/more personal story scale, then i recommend reading The Speed of Darkness. It was among the first books that was starcraft related, and it is well written and very good.
Psi Disrupter isn't so bad for me. I mean, I was under the impression that Arcturus had a few hours, at most, to search the whole planet for the Psi Disrupter. Yeah, future tech and all, but planets are big. The UED may have been looking for it (Albeit with low priority, as they planned to steamroller the Zerg with brute force) and spotted it easier because of one thing Arcturus DIDN'T have: Zerg.Quote:
Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar
More or less, Arcturus buggered out when the Zerg were still in a frenzy, overrunning the planet. Once they had settled down and started to create hive clusters and such, flight patterns and creep spread might have been disrupted around the Psi Disruptor, essentially creating a big fat target for the UED sensors.
Query whether it was 'reasonably available' technology. Seems to me like it was built upon years of studying the Zerg biology. And even if it is based along the same idea as a radar jammer, only working with void energies or whatnot, there's the mild problem of scale. Apparently, Stetmann created a version that would slow Zerg down within a small radius. The one the Confederates built reached across worlds.
Nah, they didn't even know about it, Duran had to explain what it was, and remember that when they did find it they officially decided to destroy it as an unexpected threat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quirel
I don't even know when Mengsk was ever even on the planet since the Zerg came.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quirel
I've never seen a timeline that gave the Confederacy 'years' to research the Zerg, the manual tells us that Tassadar found the deep space probes searching for humanity before the Zerg arrived, and yet after returning from Aiur with his new mission, the Zerg had already infested Chau Sara. It also implies, both from Tassadar's and the Overmind's perspective, a very brief amount of time between the infestation and purification of the planet. The Loomings prequel suggests that the Zerg caught by the Confederacy for research were brought to the facility only briefly before the invasion. Really, the most generous timeframe I've heard is Mengsk's comments in The Jacobs Installation that he saw Zerg in Confederate holding pens over a year ago. Still, I imagine it's not impossible, but the Dominion has also had years to study the Zerg, plus already having the Emitter tech, plus already knowing the basics of how the Psi Disrupter functioned - that is, knowing what their research goal is - plus whatever tech they got for that whole Hybrid story in Piercing the Shroud.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quirel
And what about the Protoss? If the Terrans have the technology to build a Psi Disrupter, then why can the Protoss not replicate it?
This is all getting beside the point but... you have to wonder why the heck is it even called a Psi Disruptor anyway and why does it work the way it did?
Assuming the device is an offshoot of the Psi Emitter technology, the Psi Emitter was a device that sent Ghost brain wave patterns to attract Zerg. The name of it said it all. Then we have the Psi Disruptor - shouldn't something called that just disrupt Ghost brain wave patterns. Why should that even affect the Zerg let alone disrupt control of them? The Psi Emitter in BW was then twisted to show that it could then take over control over Zerg. Damn these inconsistencies! :mad:
the book uprising show kerrigan discovering a zerg being experimented on 9 years before the events of the first game when she infiltrates the ghost academy. the confederacy had at least a decade to do research
1. Actually, just saying that 'it's capable of more devious/sinister shit' is contradicting your statement that it isn't convenient. I didn't say that it was convenient just for Raynor - I'm saying, it's horribly convenient for the entire plot. When we play as zerg, I'm betting the artifact might end up helping us out somehow, or at least driving the entire damn story into some un-detachable void. And then it'll show again in LotV.Quote:
Originally Posted by RolleR_RATM
2. Read it. It was pretty good. In fact, probably the best novel of the series imo. Unfortunately, it's like the only one. Even stories like 'SC Ghost: Nova' and 'Shadow of the Xel Naga', end up cart wheel colliding with some epic grand machination uber-plot (I think its epicness makes it hard to avoid; like a really big bumper car). Also, both of the latter books are horribly written, so they don't really deserve to delve on personal matters like character development or what it would feel like to live in the world of starcraft.
I think I'm going to go with my brand new theory that protoss tech is hyper-advanced, but also convoluted. In other words, they've been using the same stuff for centuries - their close mindedness prevented any advancement beyond that. They've descended into a peaceful time enshrouded in tradition (the tradition of hating themselves, meanwhile priests, AKA high templar, continue to look inwards to discover their 'racial potential') and technology that didn't really need reworking or doing new stuff. This continued until the zerg came along and the protoss panicked in a way that they couldn't mount an appropriately wise response. Does it jive?Quote:
And what about the Protoss? If the Terrans have the technology to build a Psi Disrupter, then why can the Protoss not replicate it?
Availability is subjective. Even terran tech is subjective. It makes sense in a way - because some colonies still use pitch forks and blunder busses; because they're fringe world yokels, detached from the core worlds, where they can otherwise get a hold of all the big corporate products.Quote:
Then there's the fact that even though it is clearly available modern Terran technology, nobody ever rebuilds one.
Meanwhile, the psi-disrupter is a doomsday device of sorts. It's cost and (probable) time in production is quite massive so why would they ever, any time soon, produce another one? The confederacy of man was a divided government of plutocratic rich folk who all made their own laws (or agreed on big laws), and largely disorganized - kept together by the marine core and command staff (high command, frontier fleet, colonial fleet, etc., etc.). For comparison, think of Saudi Arabia. Top military tech, filthy rich nobles, but poor civilian class. Kept together by <whatever>. I don't know much about Saudi Arabia, so I could just as easily mention America's oil interests or the Arab Emirates; more likely the former.
A safer blizz-happy (intentional) comparison would be the american south pre-civil war; kept together by fat land owners and slaves working the farms.
Certain projects are run right up from scratch from certain companies with so many finances that they are able to lobby to get it all filtered into their project. So the money has no chance to go elsewhere. Basically, some things are done because they can be. But the actual 'tech level' is entirely subjective.
I also think FTL is difficult (not like driving your car to work; basically the former definition in tv tropes) - so a lot of stuff is owner operated solely by the monopolistic corporations and the military. Civilians have hardly anything. Terrorists and mercenaries have got some things because they got friendly with a mega corporation or stole something. Also, they can get away from military logistics, so they can have upgraded specific hard ware (stronger units in-game, sometimes).
This is from earlier; it's a bit late for me to join the topic. Hope you don't mind.
This comparison doesn't really apply. What Elrond did is simply management. He had a difficult goal that he didn't know how to attain, so he told it to lots of intelligent and resourceful people and said, "listen, this needs to get done -- I don't know how, go and figure something out". Remember that his subcommittee included: a king, a god, a regent's son, four midgets, and a girl. That's not a roulette, that's just delegating! The Roulette requires a single mind to conceive of an entire chain of events in advance, each of which by itself is fairly risky and unlikely.Quote:
Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar
OK. Enough of that.
Another thing people keep saying: "The overmind had no choice, this was it's best shot."
Well.
Here's a question: If the overmind could see that far in the future and know all this, why didn't he just ask for help? Imagine this: The overmind could just have gone up to the Protoss and said this. "Listen. Something bad is up. I don't know how much you guys know about the XN, but I learnt from them that they want to make those hybrids that will consume all. How can we stop that?" He could have used Kerrigan as his ambassador. That would have been a nice touch and reuse of characters. I mean, if the entire universe is at stake, that doesn't sound like such an unreasonable idea. He could at least have considered it. "If I load the hybrids onto the Eagles and fly them over Mount Doom..."
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/2029914938
Made of win. Don't we all get fired?Quote:
4. How did you get the job of writing for this when you clearly hate it? I mean, whenever I have demonstrated incompetence or lack of interest in past jobs, I get fired and stuff.
Oh no he didn't just solo 360 no scope.Quote:
5. Did you have a creative direction of any kind, or was it just your disdain for the project that wrote the story? Was there a synergy between creative direction and disdain, or did disdain solo this one? Because it seems like disdain solo 360 no scoped this one.
The directive would supposedly prevent the Overmind from doing this.Quote:
Originally Posted by hack59
It's kinda funny that explanations for why the Overmind could not do something in its plan to free the Zerg was due to the directive but when the Overmind could do something to free the Zerg, the directive somehow allows it. Especially when the real Overmind does not have free will. It doesn't get more wishy-washy than this.
The simple question of who/what (the real Overmind or the directive) is responsible for each and every action of the Overmind is now incomprehensible with the addition of this "directive" dynamic.
Eh, Protoss tech is weird. On the one hand you have old, forbidden weapons that suddenly get put back into use due to the Zerg, like Dark Archons, Colossi, Motherships and such. On the other hand, we clearly see new tech coming out, Void Rays in particular derive from a brand new branch of Protoss tech that combine khalai and void energies. But even before that, we get told that the Khalai Caste's Furinax Tribe was responsible for developing the Zealot power armour and the Dragoon exoskeleton. So obviously there's some technological progress there. And then we have the Immortal which suddenly tells us that new Dragoons can't be made even though there's no real reason. That's just weird. Can't the Furinax build a new Temple or what not?Quote:
Originally Posted by solidsamurai
There's also confusion about how peaceful the Protoss Empire was. On the one hand, it has a thriving warlike culture, and Fenix says that he and the Executor have fought on an absurdly high number of worlds together (in StarCraft) and that he longs to fight in battle alongside his Protoss brethren as in the days of his youth (Brood War) but frankly, Fenix was involved in neither the conflict with the Dark Templar nor with Tassadar's Koprulu Expedition, and it's hard to imagine who the Protoss would need to fight in between. Seriously, even Tassadar himself only set foot on Tarsonis and Char during the whole Expedition. That's two. Fenix claims hundreds, excluding Aiur.
Yes, well obviously I wasn't suggesting that every rogue militia or interest group should be able to build a Disrupter now, but Mengsk certainly could. Duran and Kerrigan both tell us in Brood War that Mengsk wants a Disrupter, and he's got the means and will to invest heavily into military weapons (as the Odin project demonstrates) so why no Disrupter?Quote:
Originally Posted by solidsamurai
That's exactly my point. I said that the Overmind's plan doesn't count as a Xanatos Roulette because it - the single mind - didn't conceive of a many events in its sequence, and those were quite credible - obtain a Terran psychic, infest it, step down. Only that last one can really be considered unlikely. The portion you quote was a response to claims that the manipulator's foreknowledge or intent was irrelevant to the nature of a Xanatos Gambit, hence the parallel.Quote:
Originally Posted by hack59
It's somewhat strange that you mention Fenix's military experience on 'x' number of worlds, given that the Protoss principle of Dae-Uhl would've restricted direct Protoss intervention with alien species unless it was threatened by 'outside' sources.Quote:
Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar
We have to assume then that despite this principle, there must have been a lot of threats against the many aliens under Protoss protection that we do not know about (yet none of them being any more significant to the Protoss - otherwise we would have heard about them). That seems to be the only explanation for Fenix's account, unless he was just boasting/exaggerating/lying.
They realised that Mengsk would then be able to steam-roll Kerrigan and then we wouldn't be able to have SC2. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar
It must be one of those "essential coincidences" you were talking about. ;)
Disregarding whether or not the Overmind's actions constitute a Xanatos Roulette or not for the moment, I have to say that none of those events in those sequence are credible given the revelation that the real Overmind has no free will.Quote:
Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar
Well, I assume it was simply an error in the storytelling. They wanted to convey to us that Fenix was a veteran Templar, and forgot to reconcile that with the reality of really having was no enemy for the Protoss to fight. I mean, even if there was, he fought on hundreds of worlds? I brought this up for completion, but my own interpretation completely ignores the statement, much like I ignore Zeratul claiming that he has served the Matriarch for "many millennia" even though his listed age is 634 and Raszagal's is 1045. These sorts of contradictions do pop up and so long as they're not part of the focus I'm content to ignore them. They just wrote it because it sounds cool. Same with Zeratul's speech to Aldaris. He's borne witness to the entropy of entire realities? I have no idea what that's supposed to mean. And I'm largely inclined to believe it's utter 'reversing the polarity of the tachyon flux' nonsense. But the scene is made of awesome so who cares? It's also the reason I don't especially mind the rain and sunshine on Char during Raynor's speech in Wings of Liberty I really liked that cinematic despite its blatant cheesiness.Quote:
Originally Posted by Turalyon
Yeah, I agree that it becomes essential once the thing has been introduced, for the reason you give, but I wish they'd had the forethought to realise this before Brood War and spare us having to just accept it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Turalyon
Yeah, you've got to wonder what definition of free will they were using there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Turalyon
I imagine it might be the same they used for Kerrigan, come to think of it.
Right, I see about your point with Elrond. But I don't get the stuff about the overmind: Who else if not it planned for the entire chain of Kerrigan being the ultimate defender of the universe? He never delegated anything to anyone, and nobody else knew of the threat! Especially in the light of Tassadar's ghost story we are pretty much led to believe that it was the overmind who had solely and singlehandedly mapped out this solution via Kerrigan. Now if you put together all the events that were required to happen for the plan to work (especially the bit about the OM dying, Tassadar sacrificing himself and dying, Tassadar then not actually being dead, but preserved inside the dead(?) OM, someone psychic coming to look at the OM's body), it does seem fairly implausible. You see, the OM is the only entity who even knows that there is a plan. Unlike Elrond. So I think the roulette description is plenty apt. Non?Quote:
Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar
Oh, and I agree that some of the dialogue in SC/BW got carried away a bit. The millennia and Zeratul's little speech could have done with a rewrite for sure. The warrior nature of the Protoss seems integral to their culture, though, so guess putting in those hints at them being peaceful (what's a peaceful warrior?) was a sort of political-correctness cowardice; they felt that they couldn't just roll with a genuine warrior culture and make them likable (it's hard to get any credit as an audience these days).
While probably an error, they are not irreconcilable. The heavy restrictions in the Dae'Uhl only came about after the Kalathi Intercession, which has yet to be firmly established in the timeline. Before that, the Protoss did directly intervene, as seen by the Kalathi Intercession. Fenix could have simply been a veteran from this era.Quote:
Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar
This is probably explainable as Blizzard having poor English and not knowing how long a millennium is or that that it actually was a defined period of time, as opposed to aeon. They certainly have made this egregious mistake more than once.Quote:
Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar
The reason Aldaris shut up was because Zeratul was clearly high on Sundrop. Or peyote.Quote:
Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar
It's in the books. In Uprising, we found the Confederacy discovered zerg c. 2486 (five years before that novel). There were also secret projects revealed in more recent sources like the StarCraft comic (issue 0), going back to eight months before the Great War.Quote:
Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar
(Come to think of it, why do you think the emitters existed so readily? I don't see much point of the emitters other than being a bug magnet. They don't seem capable of long-range mind control or brain destruction.)
But more to the point of the threat, I think the Disrupter is a terrible idea, and I wouldn't be surprised if Kerrigan has "changed her frequencies" or otherwise come up with a way to negate the effects of any new ones.
Je crains que non. See, there's really no evidence that the Overmind conceived, planned or even anticipated any of those events, which you have admitted is the requirement for it to be considered a Roulette. There's not even evidence that those events are necessary for its hopes to be realised, though they are fortuitous. So it is like the example of the Council of Elrond - he gathered together people who could help in the quest, gave them what aid he could, and sent them off hoping that would be enough. The Overmind created Kerrigan and gave her the ability to control the Swarm before stepping down, hoping it would be enough. Other events were beyond its control, and many beyond its expectations.Quote:
Originally Posted by hack59
Take the whole Zeratul things. Why do you believe that this was part of the Overmind's plan? That would require that it somehow know Tassadar would survive, learn of the vision and communicate it to Zeratul, but it also requires that Zeratul be sent on the search for the Hybrids, which required that Zeratul find the Prophecy on Ulaan, which required that Zeratul encounter Duran and his Hybrids on the Dark Moon, which requires that Zeratul be fleeing from Char looking for Artanis, which requires that Zeratul kills the reincarnated Overmind for Kerrigan but be left alives, requiring that the Overmind predict his own reincarnation, but also Kerrigan's successful manipulations and ability to mind control Raszagal and so on and so forth. That would be a Xanatos Roulette, except the game never tells us we should believe this nonsense. Why do you insist that this was all part of the Overmind's plan?
Well, it's more than that. Really, how many civilisations can make for credible threats to the Protoss? Why would the Protoss want to fight them, unless they revel in bloodshed and the like, which they don't?Quote:
Originally Posted by hack59
Seems unlikely. Metzen said that the Kalath intercession happened some centuries ago, which is at an absolute minimum two hundred years ago. Fenix is barely less than 400 years old.Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. peasant
I stand corrected.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimera757
Oh no, it's perfectly possible that the Protoss were mainly fighting among each other on their many colony worlds, or it could be that they did in fact dominate or extinguish rivaling species (remember that the Protoss lost much of their XN-inspired powers). It isn't said, and any of those would do, I don't really mind. But as it stands, the game does indeed leave you wondering why the Protoss are supposed to be so warrior-like.Quote:
Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar
Right, I see your point. I guess the reason lots of people feel that we're watching a "plan come to fruition" rather than random chance is a meta-narrative one: One would simply expect that a tale is about something worth telling, not about a bunch of entirely incidental events. There's little for an audience to engage with in a series of unconnected, random events. Now I know you're saying that the events weren't random, but rather the result of lots of people aware of the ultimate goal working towards it. That however I don't feel at any time during the games. On the Zerg side, only the overmind is ever indicated to have this knowledge or be concerned by it. Kerrigan may or may not know about it, though in WoL she seems perfectly indifferent ("when the end comes, I shall embrace it" -- doesn't sound like she's too bothered about it). So given how the entire episode plays out, I find it hard to see it as anything but the result of lots of random, chance events. What makes you feel that any of the events of WoL were the result of people consciously working towards the resolution?Quote:
Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar
Retcon time!! :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar
Sorry for butting in, but the "lots of people" you're talking about were not aware of this 'secret plan' and therefore are not technically working toward it. Not at least until it is revealed by the vision of the vision of the vision (of the vision) and even then it's only known to a select few.Quote:
Originally Posted by hack59
Everything has just been a lucky happenstance for the Overmind, since all it really had was just 'hope' for freeing the Zerg. It's difficult to fathom how the real Overmind was even able to influence anything, let alone conceive a plan, when it seems to be enslaved and supposedly stripped of free will.
I never said the events were the result of lots of people aware of the ultimate goal working towards it. I merely said that they were not the result of the Overmind's plans, goals, predictions or anticipations or anything like that. It doesn't matter who was turning this hope of the Overmind's into a reality, or why, or how. What matters is that it wasn't the Overmind.Quote:
Originally Posted by hack59
You're taking the origin and destination and imposing a pattern on everything in between. The Overmind hoped for Kerrigan to free the Swarm. Kerrigan will (probably) free the Swarm. You are coming to the erroneous conclusion that the Overmind is therefore responsible for every step along the way, which is where the Elrond example comes in.
Kerrigan is like a child, and the Overmind is the father who hopes that she will achieve great things. He can nurture her, raise her, educate her, give her the tools necessary for success, but eventually she has to set out on her own. The father is not responsible for what happens to her on her own.
In this incident, like I mentioned before, there are only two possible results: Kerrigan succeeds, or she doesn't. The one is the goal the Overmind wishes for, the other is the one desired by the Dark Voice. Does that mean that everything that happens, ever, since it will invariably end with one of those two goals coming to fruition, is invariably part of either one's Xanatos Roulette? Does nobody else have the ability to make choices?
The Overmind is but one of the many people who contributed to the potential result of Kerrigan liberating the Swarm. The fact that he was, thus far, the only person aware of that goal is irrelevant.
Sorry, that wasn't my statement. I said "I know you say...", because I thought that's what FantasticTemplar thought. (He seems to disagree, though.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Turalyon
OK, alright. Let's get this straight then. Can we agree that the following is an exhaustive set of options?Quote:
Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar
- The overmind is the only one aware of the danger from the hybrids.
- Only the overmind and Kerrigan are aware of the danger.
- Lots of people are aware of the danger.
To get to the situation were lots of people were separately and intelligently working towards a resolution, we would need case (3) to be the case. However, I don't see any evidence for that in the games. Now on to the resolution of the problem. Again, the following should be exhaustive:
- The danger from the hybrids is being countered by the concerted and controlled efforts of people who are aware of the danger and taking steps to counter it, no matter how well or ill organized and coordinated. This may include random small people just doing what they think is best.
- The danger of the hybrids is averted because of the occurrence of several random events which nobody in particular was able to expect, predict or even hope for.
Case (3) is compatible with both (a) and (b). However, if case (a) is to result from either (1) or (2), then we must admit that lots of very implausible events had to take place to get to the result we see. Whether it's (1) or (2) doesn't really make a difference, given that Kerrigan didn't seem to have a lot of influence on the events of WoL, and as I already said, she doesn't seem to care very much. Either way, it'd still be quite a roulette, whether planned by one or two people.
So if you agree till there, then we're left to conclude that either there was lots of rouletting going on (case (a)), or that there wasn't anyone with any particular long-term plans, but that the events happened the way they did pretty much randomly, i.e. case (b) -- note that I'm rejecting the possibility of lots of people working towards the solution consciously because I don't see any evidence than anyone but the Overmind and Kerrigan knew what was going on with the hybrids. But case (b) is narratively highly unsatisfactory, which is why I'd rather think that it's a roulette than that it isn't a roulette, just a random story. It doesn't matter which interpretation you pick, the point is that both are not very satisfying.
OK, I just thought of one argument against that: In (2), it could be that Zeratul and Narud could also be included in the people who understood the danger. With Zeratul, I forgot now how he came to begin his research. Narud is a faint possibility, but because there's hardly anything about this in the actual game, this is a weak argument -- no matter whether all of this will be made clear in future books or games, but it doesn't save us from feeling that the ending of WoL is the result of lots of implausibilities.
Right, I think I've answered this above. The Elrond example only works if you say that Kerrigan (= the Fellowship) was the one making the solution work. I just don't see any of this in the game. She never says anything intelligent, and the game never indicates that it is her actions that will resolve the problem.Quote:
You're taking the origin and destination and imposing a pattern on everything in between. The Overmind hoped for Kerrigan to free the Swarm. Kerrigan will (probably) free the Swarm. You are coming to the erroneous conclusion that the Overmind is therefore responsible for every step along the way, which is where the Elrond example comes in.
But it is not irrelevant: The ability to make choices does not matter if you have no awareness of what's going on! There's no way to distinguish the outcome of choices in the absence of awareness from random events.Quote:
Does that mean that everything that happens, ever, since it will invariably end with one of those two goals coming to fruition, is invariably part of either one's Xanatos Roulette? Does nobody else have the ability to make choices?
The Overmind is but one of the many people who contributed to the potential result of Kerrigan liberating the Swarm. The fact that he was, thus far, the only person aware of that goal is irrelevant.
I'll say it again: It doesn't matter if everyone is making intelligent choices. If nobody is aware of the problem, and their choices happen to lead to the solution of the problem that they were not aware of, that is still just a series of random events, at least as far as the narrative that is trying to sell us the problem as something interesting is concerned.
That's strange, because they seem to be the only available options. Either everything that ever happens is part of some grand plan, which is almost certainly going to turn out to be a Xanatos Roulette, or else they don't, which is apparently your definition of 'random'. I'm not sure what you would consider a satisfying story.Quote:
Originally Posted by hack59
Zeratul began his search when he encountered Duran's Hybrid on the Dark Moon in Dark Origins.Quote:
Originally Posted by hack59
You must have missed the fact that she gained absolute control over the Swarm in Brood War then.Quote:
Originally Posted by hack59
Why not? How often does anybody make any choice with full awareness of everything relevant to it, of all its causes and consequences?Quote:
Originally Posted by hack59
No, I didn't say "grand plan" or "random chance" were the only options. I said "random chance" or "conscious effort" were the only options. I would find "conscious effort" a satisfactory story, that's for sure. That means that the people who I encounter in the course of the narrative have at some point some awareness of and concern for the greater problem, and their decisions are guided by their desire to contribute to a resolution. As I've said before, what I'm mostly missing from the WoL campaign is that there is an absence of urgency or relevance to the bulk of the campaign and no connection to its conclusion, nor a sense of achievement coming from the conclusion.Quote:
Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar
Well, perhaps, but this never plays out in WoL. Kerrigan never uses her control of the swarm to resolve the hybrid problem.Quote:
You must have missed the fact that she gained absolute control over the Swarm in Brood War then.
Instead of "everything relevant", ask "anything relevant": You don't have to know everything, but if you don't know anything then your actions are unlikely to be engaging to watch.Quote:
Why not? How often does anybody make any choice with full awareness of everything relevant to it, of all its causes and consequences?
Ah, I see. Well, in that case it's probably preferable to wait until that storyline actually takes priority. It's really not an important part of Wings of Liberty, so obviously it won't be a major concern for the narrative. For now all we know is that the Overmind knew, and the Dark Voice and Zeratul know, and whatever is happening with Tassadar. Those people have taken actions to effect their desired result for this storyline, so that fulfills your criteria, but it's really still in its infant stages. The storyline in Wings of Liberty was about rescuing Kerrigan from the Swarm, or killing her depending on the character. And people were knowingly acting to bring about their desired result in that storyline - Arcturus and Valerian, Raynor and Tychus, Narud, and obviously Kerrigan herself. I'd be very surprised if there is no conscious effort taken to achieve the result of that storyline.Quote:
Originally Posted by hack59
But the Hybrid problem was not resolved in Wings of Liberty.Quote:
Originally Posted by hack59
You're right, the hybrid problem isn't actually a big part of WoL, and in fact, nobody outside Raynor's crystal trip even goes so far as to mention that Kerrigan would need to survive. (I think lots of people complained that Raynor never told anyone about what he learnt from the crystal.)
So I'll go back on my original statement and wait until the story develops before forming an opinion on the overmind's actions. Conditionally, if the final solution requires Kerrigans reverse-infestation and Zertatul's convening with Tassadar, then we'll still have a case for a Roulette, but as it stands we don't actually know if this will play a role. In fact, for all we know, ignoring the crystal, there isn't any sort of ultimate danger for the characters at all.
Here's a hitch, though. Because of Raynor never telling anyone about the crystal, the entire ending of the campaign can be explained purely in terms of human motivation: Valerian wants to defeat the Zerg, Raynor wants to rescue Kerrigan, Tychus wants to kill her. All three agree that deinfesting her is the correct first step. So in the end, the question of whether Kerrigan gets killed or not is entirely up to Raynor's and Tychus's decisions, neither of whom show any interest in or concern for the hybrid problem. So at least here, at this one crucial juncture, Kerrigan's survival is totally disconnected causally from the overmind. This doesn't mean that the overmind was playing roulette (after all, lots of plans can be thwarted if the participants happen to get killed), but it's a big disconnect with the notion of saving Kerrigan because of her final purpose.
That's true, but is that a problem?Quote:
Originally Posted by hack59
For instance, take the battle of New Gettysburg. Kerrigan's fate was sealed by Arcturus Mengsk's decision to abandon her, but his decision was causally disconnected from the Overmind's intentions to utilise Humanity as the determinant in its fight against the Protoss. Do you find this narratively unsatisfying?
That was definitely satisfying, and since at that point nobody expected me to believe that there was a Big Evil Villain behind everything, the story was actually very interesting. We didn't fight the Zerg knowing that they were some trapped mind crying for help -- they were just doing their thing. Goes to show how a smaller, more focused scope can make for a much more engaging story, without any massive WTF moments. In fact, SC1 explicitly avoids the reliance on single events: The Zerg are attacking the humans (as we're told in the manual) because they're looking for a way to improve their own power to face the Protoss, but simultaneously they're reckognizing the opportunity to land a surprise strike when the Protoss carelessly expose themselves to the cerebrates. All of that fit rather well and made for a good story, and it didn't even need any prophecies, ghosts or dark voids...Quote:
Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar
Didn't need it but it had it-prophecy, the Void and spirits/ghosts have been present since day 1 and have been built on for 12 years leading up to WoL. Hardly out of the blue.
But there was a Big Bad Villain behind everything. Instead of the Dark Voice, destined to cover the Void in shadow, we had the Overmind, consumer of all sentience, all life. And we did have reliance on a single event - to the extent that you mean that 'a single successful endeavour is built up as the determinant to failure or success'. That's the entire purpose of Humanity in the storyline as set up. The Overmind felt it could not hope to overcome the Protoss without assimilating Humanity's latent psionic abilities. That's where Kerrigan comes in. And Mengsk gave her to the Overmind, even though he was completely unaware of what he was doing.
True, but the difference now is that we have a Bigger Bad Villain behind the Big Bad Villain. Not only that, there is now some doubt that the original Big Bad Villain may not be so 'bad' in the first place. What next, an Even Bigger Bad Villain behind the Bigger Bad Villain (who may also be misunderstood as well) who is behind the Big Bad villain who also happens to incorporate all of the happenings of the villains underneath it into it's grand and ultimate plan?Quote:
Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar
Are we eventually going to end up with something like this? http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php...&id=1582#comic
Hmm.. Let's see. First off, I didn't really feel that the Zerg were a "bad villain". A "villain" is a cartoonish motif that writers introduce to set up a morally unambiguous conflict; it's someone who is definitely evil and who everyone agrees on as the enemy. It's generally a very simplistic thing to do and often results in a black-and-white kind of setup. Suffice to say that real life rarely has actual villains and is more complicated. Happily, I never thought of the Zerg as villains: They were just doing their thing. They had their own agenda of improving their gene pool, which drove them towards the Protoss via the humans. It's bad news for the humans, like a swarm of locusts, but like the locusts the Zerg weren't inherently evil, at least that's how I understood the situation. (Now of course they must have red glowing eyes so that babies know they is bad.) Mengsk himself was a kind of villain, in the sense that he was ruthless and ready to expend people when it served him, but he also was just working his agenda.Quote:
Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar
Mengsk did abandon Kerrigan, which created an opportunity for the Zerg to capture her, but it was an opportunity, nothing else. The Zerg didn't engineer a situation that would allow them to take a shot at her. It just happened. So Mengsk doesn't have that much to be "unaware of" -- sure, he didn't know that his decision to abandon Kerrigan would play into his adversary's hands, but he wasn't an unwitting part in a larger plan. Also note that the Zerg don't actually play the psionic Kerrigan card once they learn the location of Aiur from the Dark Templar. The Overmind's initial plan was to bolster its psionic potential by assimilating humans, but when it made contact with the Dark Templar, it must have concluded that a surprise attack on the Protoss would be feasible; the original psi plan wasn't so important at that stage.
So where in there do you see reliance on a single event? As far as I can tell, everyone was only doing things they thought would best serve their own agenda. In the end the Protoss overcome the threat from the Zerg, true, and that is indeed "one event", but it's the outcome of a struggle for survival, not the result of any sort of cunning plan. The Overmind takes his best shot, but it isn't quite good enough, and the Protoss throw in everything they have, and they lose most of their homeworld and barely make it out alive. Sounds plausible to me.
Haha, sweet. Well, you know it's going to happen, don't you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Turalyon
You're right, the Zerg and the Overmind are not evil, they're just misunderstood apparently. Like the Zerg, locusts too are victims of their own innate directive to consume everything in their path. Like the Zerg, this innate directive was placed by some higher order 'being' (DV), people just tend to call it "Mother Nature". :rolleyes: ;)Quote:
It's bad news for the humans, like a swarm of locusts, but like the locusts the Zerg weren't inherently evil
Hm, not sure if I'm getting the joke, but I don't think there's any question about "(mis)understanding" or being "victims". Why can't it be that it simply doesn't occur to the Zerg that there are ethical implications to assimilating other species? The locust analogy stops here because locusts aren't sentient, while the Zerg are, but nonetheless there's no reason why they should have any sense of ethics. They're neither victims nor misunderstood, they're just very driven to doing things that harm humans, so the humans defend themselves. Most humans don't have a lot of ethical concerns about treating non-human life (maybe except puppies), and we don't call ourselves "victims of our own callousness". It's just not important.Quote:
Originally Posted by Turalyon
I think if you were to draw a random sample from a large bag of intelligent life forms and throw them into the same part of space, this is a much more likely outcome than anyone happening to have an innate directive concerning the other parties.
It's debatable whether individual Zerg are truly sentient (or do you mean sapient?) or not. It also brings into question whether Zerg can really (or rather need) be metaphysically free. Even then, what the hell is going to be the difference between enslaved Zerg and free Zerg anyway? They're still both going to try to assimilate the strongest species they can find, unless their own origin/nature is going to retconned as well.
Anyways, the previous comment was more of a jab at the writing convention used in Sc2. They've distilled the plight of something which was definitively and originally alien into such blatant humanistic terms that it's hard not to think of the Overmind (and the Zerg overall) as being 'misunderstood' or 'victims'.
Oh, yes, for sure. Everything gets anthropomorphized and made relatable. I guess in part that's because they don't know any other way of making a 30-mission long Zerg campaign (to be fair, that's quite a challenge, ain't noone playing 30 missions of locust plague), but the cynic might argue that it's to pave the way to make the Zerg a viable character class in WOS :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by Turalyon
Even with all this business of humanising the Zerg (which does not necessarily mean making them good) to potentially make their campaign more relatable, it's funny that the real human characters in the campaign we are supposed to relate to the most (ie: WoL) is made extremely difficult to do so when they are nothing more than caricatures. Go figure.
One abomination at a time. I'm still too worried about the possible 'everyone unites against the Dark Voice' ending to Legacy of the Void to worry about the villain of StarCraft III.Quote:
Originally Posted by Turalyon
So if 'working your agenda' disqualifies you from being a villain, why do you call the Dark Voice a villain?Quote:
Originally Posted by hack59
I mean, universal genocide of all sentient life seems pretty unambiguously evil to me.
Right, and the Overmind didn't engineer a situation where Raynor and Valerian would find a Xel'Naga artefact to deinfest Kerrigan either, so why bring it up?Quote:
Originally Posted by hack59
I thought you'd agreed that there wasn't a cunning plan to the Overmind's actions either? If there was, what was it?Quote:
Originally Posted by hack59
I doubt there'll be a "everyone against the Dark Voice" scenario, considering LotV is primarily about the protoss uniting rather than the galaxy as a whole.
If you look at WoL, the primary concern of WoL was supposedly Raynor's battle against Mengsk, until we got the change of gears at the end with Kerrigan's 'rescue'.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawki
LotV will most likely revolve around uniting the Protoss to get us to the 'end game' of defeating the DV and it's plans. Since Kerrigan and the Zerg have a stake in this greater conflict, too, it's going to be difficult to not think that there is going to be some sort of "uniting" going on even if the last campaign of the trilogy is supposed to be Protoss specific (originality and personal taste issues notwithstanding).
There's a lot more to worry than just that. I'm somewhat worried that they've introduced a big-bad-villain which they will not end up defeating after all that time waiting (it'll be another 2.5 years at least) and building it up. That'll be a very low blow...Quote:
Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar
Not if said universal genocide is actually the better option of a fate worse than death. It could be revealed that the DV was actually doing us a favour by killing everything because the alternative is some other omnipotent guy who's just 'around the corner' who will mentally enslave every and all sapient entities by stripping them of free will of all kinds yet retaining there awareness. Gasp!! :eek: Cue the next Big Bad of Starcraft 3!! :pQuote:
Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar
Well, one thing at a time. I have worries about the lack of Zerg characters in Heart of the Swarm, more immediately, but the "ally vic?" ending to Legacy of the Void is the most plausible major concern of mine. I've played (and hated) the campaigns of WarCraft III after all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Turalyon
I was talking about the Overmind, actually :P. And to be honest, it was either death or a fate that would make death look like a blessing, so yeah. I think the Overmind is evil.Quote:
Originally Posted by Turalyon
The Dark Voice is Sargeras. Not literally (not a shared universe, except Easter eggs) but think about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawki
The Titans were a peaceful organizing force that manipulated lesser races, and one of their member "fell", becoming evil and tried to destroy all life as we know it. (Why would the Dark Voice go out of its way to destroy the terrans otherwise?)
Instead of fighting against the zerg, it dominated them to defeat everyone. Obviously Kerrigan is the Dark Voice's enemy. I'd be more than a little surprised if the three races didn't all oppose the Dark Voice, even if it's not a giant Battle Royale with Cheese with one player commanding all three races at the end.
Warcraft III ended with various races teaming up to smash Archimonde, Sargeras' representative, as they all agreed he was "bad". I wonder if Diablo is in any way similar.