Infestor Musings...

This is partially a repost and an extrapolation of already posted ideas (previously appearing in the "5 Suggestions to Improve SC 2" thread), partially an attempt to look at the how's and why's of these ideas and Zerg gameplay in general. People have been complaining about the Infestor for quite some time, with Disease and Spawn Infested Terran coming under heavy criticism and much scrutiny, so here's a suggestion of mine for a different couple of abilities to go together with Neural Parasite, thoughts and musings following.

Toxic Creep: the Infestor gains an ability to generate a trail of toxic "creep" while moving underground. The creep would not only cause steady continuous damage (of around 5 HP per second) to the enemy units on it, but would slow the movement of any non hovering vehicles as well. The Toxic Creep would dissipate after 5 minutes or so, it would not affect your troops but will hurt any enemy Zerg.

Notes:

-Toxic creep would be unbuildable, nor would it boost the movement of Zerg units on it.

-Distinguishing between yours and your enemy's toxic creep would be done through a team coloured vein pattern in the creep's texture.

-The Zerg have no other abilities that specifically target Heavy Metal, and this is also a rather appropriate way for the Zerg to hamper the enemy's mobility, Infantry will not suffer from any slowing effect but would be more affected by the damage dealt having overall less HP.

Infest: An ability to temporarily infest Bunkers, Missile Turrets, Spine and Spore Crawlers and Radar Towers, making them unable to attack and detect for a set amount of time (around 45 seconds).

Notes:

-The disruption of detection isn't as useful for the Zerg themselves as for potential Terran or Protoss allies in team games.

-It would fit well with the aggressive and harassing nature of the Zerg, allowing them among other things to more effectively breach Terran defensive perimeters.

-The infestation would be signified by a graphic of writhing tentacles twining around the structure.

-Units inside an infested bunker would not be able to leave as long as the infestation lasts.

-Infestation obviously won't be a channelled ability.

General notes (why these particular abilities):

-The Zerg overall tend to have more "saboteur" type spellcasters than either the Protoss or Terran, in and out quickly and preferably unnoticed, the abilities themselves serve to weaken or hamper the enemy without much brute-force, direct-damage, single blow effects (Spawn Broodling being the only exception) and tend to affect groups of units (Dark Swarm, Plague, Ensnare). The spellcaster itself is always an aid to the army, a tool to augment and be used alongside the hordes of Zerglings and Hydralisks dealing the the main bulk of the damage. Ground control in the widest sense of the word is important, the Zerg are perhaps more than any other race dependent on a shifting and fluid frontline, with blockades and out-thrusts appearing in every conceivable place, often unpredictably (Spine and Spore Crawlers have a good reason to be mobile), thus an ability like toxic creep would prove very handy, not only in quickly and spontaneously hampering the advance of the enemy but in shepherding them exactly where you'd want them to be, helping shape a malleable line of defense. Infest on the other hand will help Zerg breach defensive lines, something they need much more than did the Protoss in BW with Disruption Web, thus the Infestor becomes a crucial unit in controlling frontlines. Furthermore, both Toxic Creep and Infest would play to the Infestor's strength of moving while burrowed, allowing the player to sneak upon enemy defenses and perhaps do such things as lay a patch of toxic creep right across the enemy's economy line, so versatility is inherent. And finally, these seem to me like fun and interesting abilities to use.

Decent ideas. But really anything is an improvement over the current Infestor abilities.

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Originally Posted by Blazur

Decent ideas. But really anything is an improvement over the current Infestor abilities.

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This is not only an attempt at the improvement of abilities per se but also at giving some direction (and a more defined niche in the techtree) to the Infestor, which at the moment is probably one of the more muddled units in the game (MUCH more so than the Thor for example). The abilities themselves obviously already appeared in the game in one way or another, but this seems to me at the moment the ideal way to implement them.

The idea of a "building lockdown" (your "Infest" idea) intrigues me and sounds much more fun than the Defiler's Plague; although, I'd rather see it usable on all buildings of all races, not just the few you listed. It would be particularly devastating against the protoss, as all you would have to do is strike a few pylons and a good bit of their base would be shut down. Fortunately, however, it wouldn't be too powerful, because all the protoss would have to do is bring in a few Warp Prisms to temporarily re-power their buildings.

Your "Toxic Creep" idea sounds fun, but I would make some changes:

• cover a medium/large area (radius of 6?)
• dissipate quickly when off or out of range (10 seconds?)

Basically, instead of attempting to make a trail, just make a large carpet of the stuff, which dissipates if the Infestor moves or turns it off. It could still do it underground, and the ability would work like the ghost's cloak in that it spends about 1 EP per second and that movement does not deactivate it. Also, when first activated, it would need to slowly spread out and not instantly cover the area.

This ability would be pretty fun, offensively and defensively. Just plant one or more Infestors at a chokepoint and turn the ability on and boom -- simple and effective area denial. If multiple Infestors are close enough to where their creeps touch, then the creep should spread faster, but it should not stack.

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Originally Posted by Eligor

This is not only an attempt at the improvement of abilities per se but also at giving some direction (and a more defined niche in the techtree) to the Infestor, which at the moment is probably one of the more muddled units in the game (MUCH more so than the Thor for example). The abilities themselves obviously already appeared in the game in one way or another, but this seems to me at the moment the ideal way to implement them.

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Might be worth reviving this thread as well which is a brainstorming of alternative abilities for the unit.

http://sclegacy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=235

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Originally Posted by n00bonicPlague

The idea of a "building lockdown" (your "Infest" idea) intrigues me and sounds much more fun than the Defiler's Plague; although, I'd rather see it usable on all buildings of all races, not just the few you listed. It would be particularly devastating against the protoss, as all you would have to do is strike a few pylons and a good bit of their base would be shut down. Fortunately, however, it wouldn't be too powerful, because all the protoss would have to do is bring in a few Warp Prisms to temporarily re-power their buildings.

Your "Toxic Creep" idea sounds fun, but I would make some changes:

• cover a medium/large area (radius of 6?)
• dissipate quickly when off or out of range (10 seconds?)

Basically, instead of attempting to make a trail, just make a large carpet of the stuff, which dissipates if the Infestor moves or turns it off. It could still do it underground, and the ability would work like the ghost's cloak in that it spends about 1 EP per second and that movement does not deactivate it. Also, when first activated, it would need to slowly spread out and not instantly cover the area.

This ability would be pretty fun, offensively and defensively. Just plant one or more Infestors at a chokepoint and turn the ability on and boom -- simple and effective area denial. If multiple Infestors are close enough to where their creeps touch, then the creep should spread faster, but it should not stack.

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I think that the ability to incapacitate production buildings would be too much, as well as more annoying than fun (less about strategy more about just limiting the other player's actions). Not sure about Pylons, they're a weakness of the Protoss as it is.

As for toxic creep, I'd like to have as much freedom as possible in creating any pattern I may think of (if only for a whim's sake), thus a trail. And since the ability is supposed to be defensive as much as offensive I do believe it should stay around for a while even with no enemy in sight. Multiple Infestors should indeed be able to spread it faster though.

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Originally Posted by Blazur

Might be worth reviving this thread as well which is a brainstorming of alternative abilities for the unit.

http://sclegacy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=235

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Merging them sounds like a good idea.

the idea with infest is kindof alright i guess....but zerg already got super guardians and ultralisks in sc2...plus lurkers are more anti tank than before...so i don't think what you said about zerg needed defense breaks is so true...certainly lower tier units i suppose might be lacking in that department though, yes that may be true.

but this other idea...the creep from the infestor...it seems like fun, but a really bad idea. it just makes it too obvious to the opponent, "hey look, i have infestors, get detection to kill them!"

well, if it were like the creep isn't visible unless you have the detectors, then that might be ok...

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Originally Posted by SanKakU

but this other idea...the creep from the infestor...it seems like fun, but a really bad idea. it just makes it too obvious to the opponent, "hey look, i have infestors, get detection to kill them!"

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So does using Ghosts, or Dark Templar or Banshees.

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Originally Posted by SanKakU

well, if it were like the creep isn't visible unless you have the detectors, then that might be ok...

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The whole idea behind the toxic creep is that it's visible and presents the enemy with the dilemma of either having to cross a patch of terrain that can seriously damage his units (not to mention slowing the progress of vehicles and walkers), or seek an alternate route.

I like the idea, it's a well-themed ability for the infestor. I like how it slows in an area of effect on the ground, making the opponent require detection to prevent being 'ensnared' by toxic creep. This really helps the zerg get a good surround with their mobility advantage.

However I think gameplay-wise, requiring a burrowed infestor near the enemy is too much of a downside when you compare it to abilities like psi-storm (instant cast, ranged, deals lots of damage fast) and the old plague (fire and forget, ranged, does a ton of damage). Against an opponent with detection available, this ability would be almost worthless against the very situations you want to use it against. An overseer watching over an army of lings and hydras wouldn't fear Toxic Creep at all, nor would a force of M&M with a Raven around.

This can't really compare to say Dark Templar because the infestor's main use is its abilities, whereas a Dark Templar, even if detected, has uses other than attacking the enemy army head on. Toxic Creep looks to counter masses of ground troops, and that'd be hard if the infestor is required to get in close range, even if burrowed. Who knows, this might be a good risk-reward ability.

Toxic Creep looks like it'd be a fun ability to use on enemy worker lines, slowing them down while damaging them all.

Both Ideas are good, but as Tricerion said, Infestor is a caster. He should be hidden, or in the back of the army. He is support unit, and Toxic Creep is support ability but you shouldnt charge on enemy with your infestors, that is the main reason why they can move while burrowed, to be hidden. Toxic Creep sounds cool idea, and I would like it more if it can be casted like old plague/Ensnare/Psi Storm, on target ground. Then it would be really useful ability with combination of Plague and Ensnare.

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Originally Posted by RamiZ

Both Ideas are good, but as Tricerion said, Infestor is a caster. He should be hidden, or in the back of the army. He is support unit, and Toxic Creep is support ability but you shouldnt charge on enemy with your infestors, that is the main reason why they can move while burrowed, to be hidden. Toxic Creep sounds cool idea, and I would like it more if it can be casted like old plague/Ensnare/Psi Storm, on target ground. Then it would be really useful ability with combination of Plague and Ensnare.

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The thing with Toxic Creep (as mentioned in my original post) is that it lasts for quite some time (5 minutes being quite a lot in a StarCraft game). So all you need to do is lay it down in an area you want to keep the enemy out of (that could be a chokepoint, or a potential expansion). You absolutely don't need to bring the Infestor in direct contact with the enemy for toxic creep to be useful, in fact, in my mind most of the uses involved laying it down before the enemy troops arrived to the place, of course if you want to contaminate the ground beneath the feet of the workers and make their life hell sneaking the Infestor in could be quite a challenege, but one with significant rewards.

P.S. Infest by the way would slightly outrange all static defenses, so the Infestor may cast it from a safe distance.

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Originally Posted by Eligor

The thing with Toxic Creep (as mentioned in my original post) is that it lasts for quite some time (5 minutes being quite a lot in a StarCraft game). So all you need to do is lay it down in an area you want to keep the enemy out of (that could be a chokepoint, or a potential expansion). You absolutely don't need to bring the Infestor in direct contact with the enemy for toxic creep to be useful, in fact, in my mind most of the uses involved laying it down before the enemy troops arrived to the place, of course if you want to contaminate the ground beneath the feet of the workers and make their life hell sneaking the Infestor in could be quite a challenege, but one with significant rewards.

P.S. Infest by the way would slightly outrange all static defenses, so the Infestor may cast it from a safe distance.

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Sure, I know what do you mean, but SC2 is fast-paced game. There are no abilities there that last that Long. Also, Toxic Creep should be offensive ability, not defensive IMO. And you cant execute attack with it and for example, mass Zerglings and Banelings, like you would do if it can be casted from distance like Plague. Also if enemies can see it there is even less chance that they will get over it.

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Originally Posted by RamiZ

Sure, I know what do you mean, but SC2 is fast-paced game. There are no abilities there that last that Long. Also, Toxic Creep should be offensive ability, not defensive IMO. And you cant execute attack with it and for example, mass Zerglings and Banelings, like you would do if it can be casted from distance like Plague. Also if enemies can see it there is even less chance that they will get over it.

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You obviously can't use it like Plague, but what you can potentially do is herd fleeing enemy units onto it. It wasn't conceived as an offensive ability but one which can be used offensively if you're good enough, the fact that it's something the enemy can see and has a choice of whether venturing onto the toxic creep or not is for me one of the more interesting sides to the ability, since it brings in the element of calculated risk on the enemy's part (your units MAY still be fighting fit after passing that contaminated chokepoint which presents a faster way to the enemy's base, or they may not, it's up to the player to decide and that introduces another margin for error (and the more margins for human errors and miscalculations the more interesting the game is)). Besides in StarCraft II, where terrain seems to play an even greater role such an ability is very pertinent. The relatively long time it lasts by the way is there to balance out the fact that it is noticeable and avoidable (it doesn't necessarily have to be 5 minutes of course, the exact amount of time should be determined through hands on balance testing, but it has to be a significant period of time in a StarCraft game, long enough to be an effective defensive ability). The general idea of course is that with tandem with Infest it makes the Infestor into a rather crucial unit for map control, gives it a defined role that is not by any means narrow, and yet different enough from all the other spellcasters in the game. Besides, both Infest and Neural Parasite are very offensive and direct abilities, having a third one like that on one caster would most probably be too much.

I think it would be less demanding on the game engine and CPU processing power if the Toxic Creep was a particle effect of said ability... you could rename it Miasma and make it a poison mist instead, much less complication imo.


-Psi

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Originally Posted by PsiWarp

I think it would be less demanding on the game engine and CPU processing power if the Toxic Creep was a particle effect of said ability... you could rename it Miasma and make it a poison mist instead, much less complication imo.


-Psi

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That would potentially obscure vision, there was a unit in WarCraft III that generated Blight as it moved, I don't see why a similar mechanic would be complicated or taxing to perform in the SC 2 engine.

Besides, slime is more visceral and fitting for the Zerg, and emphasizes the fact that it's an anti-ground ability.

Which unit would that be?

If its slime you want, slime effect can be at ground level, thus not obscuring vision... I just feel that with all the different team colors this spell can show, that would create more misinterpretation than particles.


-Psi

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There was a unit in WarCraft III that generated Blight as it moved.

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Really? I played Wc3 for 5 years and I dont recall any Undead unit that could do that.

It's probably a campaign unit.

So I bothered to register just to give my two cents on the Infestor. I feel that desesperat over this unit.

So as I see it, if the Queen is a defense-oriented spellcaster, then the Infestor should be based on supporting offense. Therefore...

Corruption: With an AoE similar to the Plague ability, affected units become corrupted for a short period of time (15-20 seconds). Which mean that if they'd died during that period, they would spawn mantalings, or preferably organic structures that attack both air and ground, like the Corruptor.

And as an homage to SCI, the player would also gain the vision of the corrupted units, as long as the ability last.

Spawn mantalings/organic towers: As its been suggested earlier, it'd effectively replace the infested terrans, thus resolving any lore/suspension of disbelief problem. Spawned units/structures would attack both air and ground, and die shortly.

These two abilities would work well together, for obvious reason. One Infestor could distrupt an entire mining zone single-handedly. Still, this would make the infestor less OP than a Templar...

The third ability could be Infestation, which would spawn creep, roots, and tentacles in an AoE, disabling a handful of buildings and units (zerg as well) for a short period of time. The player could gain all advantage associated with the creep in the AoE. It'd be a lot like the Corsair's distruption, but wouldnt affect units that enter the AoE after the spell in casted.

There no undead unit in WC3 that generates Blight, the one he may be talking about the undead Meat Wagon/Abomination's Disease Cloud Aura ability.

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Disease Cloud Aura (Passive)
Gives Abominations a Disease Cloud aura that deals 1 damage per second for 120 seconds. Meat Wagons will cause Disease Clouds wherever they attack that deal 1 damage per second for 120 seconds to nearby enemy units. Undead are immune to Disease Cloud.

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Or is it the Obsidian Statues' Essence of Blight ability?

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Essence of Blight (Autocast)
Restores 10 hit points to nearby friendly units.

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I am guessing he meant the skull of blight item that heroes could carry around.

Also a big Welcome to B~E. One thing to clarify the current queen is more of a support unit than a defence unit.

Actually, I meant Archimonde in the final level, which perhaps is a bit obscure.

Another precedent in WC III is Illidan in the Frozen Throne, who leaves temporary burning footprints as part of the walking animation, if the WarCraft III engine can allow units to leave temporary marks on the terrain, then the SC II one should have no problems with it as well.

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Originally Posted by B~E

So I bothered to register just to give my two cents on the Infestor. I feel that desesperat over this unit.

So as I see it, if the Queen is a defense-oriented spellcaster, then the Infestor should be based on supporting offense. Therefore...

Corruption: With an AoE similar to the Plague ability, affected units become corrupted for a short period of time (15-20 seconds). Which mean that if they'd died during that period, they would spawn mantalings, or preferably organic structures that attack both air and ground, like the Corruptor.

And as an homage to SCI, the player would also gain the vision of the corrupted units, as long as the ability last.

Spawn mantalings/organic towers: As its been suggested earlier, it'd effectively replace the infested terrans, thus resolving any lore/suspension of disbelief problem. Spawned units/structures would attack both air and ground, and die shortly.

These two abilities would work well together, for obvious reason. One Infestor could distrupt an entire mining zone single-handedly. Still, this would make the infestor less OP than a Templar...

The third ability could be Infestation, which would spawn creep, roots, and tentacles in an AoE, disabling a handful of buildings and units (zerg as well) for a short period of time. The player could gain all advantage associated with the creep in the AoE. It'd be a lot like the Corsair's distruption, but wouldnt affect units that enter the AoE after the spell in casted.

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I think that Corruption and Spawn Mantalings/Towers overlap too much (BOTH ultimately spawn Mantalings or towers), you would like to have either the one or the other. I would personally go for the former as it is an interesting twist on Plague (I have my own thoughts on the subject I may put down here later). "Spawn Mantalings/Towers" isn't very different from the Brood Lord and Queen and overall not particularly exciting, nor possessed of any great offensive potential (building towers made sense for the Queen when she was a base protetor and spawning Broodlings is perhaps even less inspired than Infested Marines (those at least have the novelty of being ranged units), besides I believe that by and large spellcasters shouldn't have abilities that would make them too self sufficient).

I do like your idea for "Infestation", even though I think it's a bit too much. As I explained in the first post of the thread, Zerg have mostly low-key spellcasters that almost never fully kill or incapacitate a unit outright (the Queen's Spawn Broodling in the first SC is a big exception), but primarily serve to weaken the general mass of the enemy force with conventional combat units doing the brunt of the job. An ability on such a scale as you propose would make the Infestor in my opinion even more powerful than a High Templar, as the latter is is not particularly effective against buildings and Psi-Storm can still be escaped. In fact it's much closer to the Mothership's Vortex (again, perhaps even more powerful since it affects buildings as well). So these are my overall thoughts on the subject. Welcome to the Legacy by the way. :)

Although you're probably right about my ideas, overlaping isnt a bad thing in itself. Think of how invisibility, lockdown and ocular implant all make the ghost better at launching nukes.

Spawning infested terrans/whatevers is stronger than I thought. Imagine what 3 or 4 infestors could do once they've sneaked into a mining zone. Spawning 15 or 20 ranged units at a moment's notice. This will make them good harrassers.

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Originally Posted by B~E

Although you're probably right about my ideas, overlaping isnt a bad thing in itself. Think of how invisibility, lockdown and ocular implant all make the ghost better at launching nukes.

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I meant that they both ultimately spawn Mantalings through slightly different mechanics. Invisibility, Lockdown and Ocular Implant are all very different abilities which can be used for diverse ends, there's no overlap between them just because they all make the Ghost potentially more efficient at launching Nukes.

As for Plague, and any other "diease" themed abilities I believe that a timed dispersion mechanic is the way to go. Instead of it being a simple AoE as in the original StarCraft it should instead be cast on a single unit from which it'll spread to any adjacent units and so on and so forth for a certain duration of time. The enemy player will be able to halt the spread of the Plague by scattering his own units as much as possible, however that will require some serious micro. Overall this makes the Plague a very dynamic ability, potentially very lethal (especially if the enemy is foolish enough to send large clusters of units against your spellcaster) but possibly equally inefficient, all depending on your guile and your opponent's alertness and micromanagement skills.