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Didn't she also smash right through the protective glass of a Goliath to kill the pilot using the buttstock of a gun?Quote:
And then Sarah Kerrigan herself, who was a good hand with a knife and perfectly capable of breaking people's necks with her kick attacks. Note: pre-infestation. With a psi blade, she'd be even nastier up close. (So instead she gets claws and wings... ouch.)
Yup. She was all-round badass.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandonetho
Yeah this is exactly the reason why Goliaths need to be upgraded to use cameras instead lol.
And what do you do if someone takes out the cameras? They tend to be fragile, exposed, and not cover as many angles. EMP can take them out too (realistically, that is, although localized EMP might not be realistic.)
There's such a thing as too techno. I'm reminded of a fairly bad novel, where the villains (neo-nazis) used these wonderfully advanced guns capable of extremely high rates of fire, until someone hits them with an EMP. Sometimes simple is best; at the very least that makes maintenance easier.
True, however if a Goliath gets his by an EMP I'm sure cameras or not it would just die.
Cameras can be concealed many ways already in our age, I'm sure in the year 2500 they can have cameras that do the job wonderfully.
Last but not least, at least the pilot won't get pwned by sniper fire, although this is assuming that the glass is not bullet proof against sniper rounds.
The glass is not sniper proof (StarCraft: Issue 1).
So that's exactly why Cameras would be better, so he won't get pwned by snipers.
I do happen to like the glass shield though, it's stylish.
So, you say they pretty much had nothing but the Khaydarin crystals and that only some protoss technology comes from reverse engineering to Xel'Naga Artifacts. The question now is about the khala. You say it helped them a lot since they have a very long lifespan so they can reach scientific achievements with ease. Pardon my ignorance, how does the Khala work?Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero
Is it the telepathic link they have and -I don't remember where I read- Dark templars became outcasts because they rejected to join? I don't remember it well. Was it that all thoughts are shared and all "individuality" lost, and that was the reason Dark Templars rejected it?
And, the main problem, how could Dark templars manage to achieve anything without their "link"?
About nanotechnology, Blizzard couldn't have included such an idea 10 years ago because it didn't even exist, but I think I've seen it in SCII somewhere explaining something that 10 years ago could only be achieved through "magic": Medic's heal!
:DZOMG! what I've done! I just posted this morning thus reviving this topic which seems to be so hot that it has moved onward 2 pages!:o
Lets note a couple things. First of all, knowing how to fight probably equates super advance martial training. This would not encompass "using psi-blades". It took gestalt 0 2 years to learn how to use the psi-blade. Thats almost half as long as the entirety of ghost training.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandonetho
Second of all, in game damage does not reflect physical realities. The starcraft civilian (and unless in starcraft, they equip their civilians with advance defense mechanisms, has the same amount of health as a marine. Meaning I would have to shoot 5 bullets...with a gause assault rifle...in order to kill a civilian. Obviously, this is not true.) It would take three slices of a psionic blade. Somehow, that seems downright unlikely.
And finally, if a ghost confronts a marauder in an installation, yes a psi-blade would be a very effective weapon. So would a rifle. Its simply not effective to give ghosts psi-blades.
The fact that ghosts are really good at physical combat, and can kill golaith pilots with roundhouse kicks doesn't support giving them a terribly cost ineffective weapon, it says that they are perfectly fine without them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimera757
Im pretty sure that they're are a variety of ways to kill someone in close quarters, even if they are suited up. By giving ghosts psi-blades, your missing out on the entire point of psi-blades. An extremely graceful weapon that can be used offensively as well as defensively. Its a weapon used in the heat of combat, not as a stealth weapon. The main advantage of a psi-blade isn't that the ghost will be really good at stealthily killing opponents (or even armored opponents), but that the ghost would be able to go man-on-mano with zerglings, hydras and zealots. Which really isnt the point of a ghost.
Gestalt isn't suppose to be a the first in a new line of super-soldiers, hes meant as a proof of concept. He proves ghosts can be enhanced via protoss tech and biology.
I'm not saying that ghosts would suck with psi-blades, im saying its a particularly dumb investment. Maybe in another 50 years of perfecting and mass manufacturing the tech, could it see use beyond a proto-type.
Doesn't make sense in SC2, except maybe on a hero unit who has a proto-type or something. something (like gestalt 0)
And regarding the camera comment...cameras aren't reliable in that kind of usage. If it breaks, your screwed. And if limits FoV a lot.
Why wouldn't it become part of the martial arts training? It took him 2 years to learn it, that doesn't mean he didn't learn it as a part of his training.Quote:
Lets note a couple things. First of all, knowing how to fight probably equates super advance martial training. This would not encompass "using psi-blades". It took gestalt 0 2 years to learn how to use the psi-blade. Thats almost half as long as the entirety of ghost training.
Yes, that's not the point though. The point is that YOU have no basis to back up your claim that a fusion cutter is just as strong as a psi blade? Where's your evidence? To compare a fusion cutter to a made up weapon that can cut a Hydralisks head off in 1 easy slice?Quote:
Second of all, in game damage does not reflect physical realities. The starcraft civilian (and unless in starcraft, they equip their civilians with advance defense mechanisms, has the same amount of health as a marine. Meaning I would have to shoot 5 bullets...with a gause assault rifle...in order to kill a civilian. Obviously, this is not true.) It would take three slices of a psionic blade. Somehow, that seems downright unlikely.
When you make a claim, back it up. Explain exactly how a rifle would be just as effective when A) It's in close combat B) A rifle gets in the way of aerobics and C) A marauder uses thick thick armour? Please do enlighten me on how a rifle is just as effective as a psi blade.Quote:
And finally, if a ghost confronts a marauder in an installation, yes a psi-blade would be a very effective weapon. So would a rifle. Its simply not effective to give ghosts psi-blades.
The point of psi blades? I'm sorry, but uh what point is this? As far as I can tell, the point of psi blades is for killing stuff. Dark Templars use psi blades, why shouldn't Ghosts? Now, I agree that giving every single ghost a psi blade is not cost effective, but I certainly don't see what the problem is with giving good ghosts psi blades. It merely enhances their lethality.Quote:
Im pretty sure that they're are a variety of ways to kill someone in close quarters, even if they are suited up. By giving ghosts psi-blades, your missing out on the entire point of psi-blades.
Yeah, because Dark Templars aren't stealth units.Quote:
Its a weapon used in the heat of combat, not as a stealth weapon.
Ghosts can do many things, and I'm fairly certain going against Zerg creatures and other people is certainly somewhere in his training. He has to know how to deal with Zerg creatures if he runs into them, and a gun certainly won't be as useful as a psi blade in close quarter.Quote:
but that the ghost would be able to go man-on-mano with zerglings, hydras and zealots. Which really isnt the point of a ghost.
Guess what? If your glass breaks, you're screwed as well. And it most definitely is NOT bullet proof. Also, where as I have facts backing up my claim you don't. Where's your evidence that cameras limit FOV a lot? Modern day cameras? They can place microscopic cameras on different areas of the goliath to have an ever wider range of view than a normal glass shield. They can even place it so that the goliath pilot can see behind the goliath, something that glass certainly doesn't allow.Quote:
And regarding the camera comment...cameras aren't reliable in that kind of usage. If it breaks, your screwed. And if limits FoV a lot.
People are getting a bit angry and confused in this thread.
Project Gestalt started some time in 2502. The story itself took place in 2503, more than one year after the project's creation. I said two years so I wouldn't exaggerate how quickly you can learn to use a psi-blade.
Zero learned to use the psi-blade sometime during that period. It's possible it took him a very short period of time to use it.
The psi-blade seems to be pretty good at penetrating armor, so it's a smarter move to use it than trying to snipe a marauder with a very thick helmet, at least in any situation where you can get close. (The best way to do that is with stealth. Charging the guy with slowing grenades is not a good idea if he can see you.)
Zero was shown using the psi-blade in many close-up situations, sometimes stealthy and sometimes not. Given how badass he was, it's doubtful he really needed to use stealth.
Do I seriously need to explain to you why recently discovered protoss technology wouldn't be taught to a terran ghost in martial arts training?Quote:
Why wouldn't it become part of the martial arts training? It took him 2 years to learn it, that doesn't mean he didn't learn it as a part of his training.
Quote:
Yes, that's not the point though. The point is that YOU have no basis to back up your claim that a fusion cutter is just as strong as a psi blade? Where's your evidence? To compare a fusion cutter to a made up weapon that can cut a Hydralisks head off in 1 easy slice?
When you make a claim, back it up. Explain exactly how a rifle would be just as effective when A) It's in close combat B) A rifle gets in the way of aerobics and C) A marauder uses thick thick armour? Please do enlighten me on how a rifle is just as effective as a psi blade.
First of all, I'm not saying that a fusion cutter is anywhere the same power as a psi-blade. Slashing a marine with a fusion cutter would probably scar his armor badly, while a psi-blade would literally cut it in two.
I didn't say its just as effective, im saying that its superfluous. I'm saying that ghosts do not have trouble killing things when they stealth right behind them. A psi-blade is excessive.
Second
you discount my ideas saying you have no conclusive proof, then you make your own idea with no conclusive proof.
Guess what. We used the same thing. Its called logic. A ghost does not need to cut a marine in twain, taking advantage of a vulnerable part in his suit would be far easier. The very fact that a ghost has no melee weapon despite the fact im sure something that could kill a armored unit efficiently in melee combat could be developed is proof enough that his standard weapons are fine for close quarters combat.
Dark templars are not comparable to ghosts. Gameplay wise they fulfill similar roles, but in lore, they are very different.Quote:
The point of psi blades? I'm sorry, but uh what point is this? As far as I can tell, the point of psi blades is for killing stuff. Dark Templars use psi blades, why shouldn't Ghosts? Now, I agree that giving every single ghost a psi blade is not cost effective, but I certainly don't see what the problem is with giving good ghosts psi blades. It merely enhances their lethality.
Yeah, because Dark Templars aren't stealth units.
First of all, your suggesting that a ghost carries both a psi-blade and a gun. This is incredibly hard to do!. The psi projectors are VERY big, if you've seen the cinematics. Undoubtedly they are heavy too. On top of that, ghosts need to carry around moebius reactors, which seem like rather heavy backpacks, and many other stuff.
Look at the size of those things.
http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/File...t_SC1_Art1.jpg
The alternative is to give ghosts a much more limited sidearm then the already gigantic canister rifle. I'm pretty sure ghosts would do 10x better with the rifle.
Second, the dark templar is vastly more powerful psionically then a ghost. A dark templar can cloak indefintely with nothing more then the power of its mind. A ghost can cloak..well...no mention of how long the power lasts but I doubt its more then 30 minutes to a hour. A dark templar is much more powerful then a ghost. The most powerful ghosts would probably be equal to a mediocre dark templar.
Third, Dark templars are not assassins. They are not black-ops. They are not snipers. They are warriors. DT's use their cloaking to augment their combat and to scout. Their cloaking serves to defend them by making the enemies attacks miss, as they cannot aim correctly. But a dark templar is just as much designed to run into a swatch of zergling and fight to the death as much as a zealot. This is not a ghost's role. In lore, their has been not a single mention of dark templars acting anything other then illusive, evasive warriors. They fight alongside the zealots, not like ghosts, who aid the front line from the shadows
Ghosts are employed by the goverment mainly to act as black-op squads doing assassinations, spy, mental warfare, infiltrations, and battlefield snipers. The last thing a ghost is a "warrior"
Ghosts are not zealots. Ghosts are not superman. Ghosts are not stupid. Their is 0 reason why a ghost would be sword range of a zerg uncloaked, and not going to die in 5 seconds. If zerg ambush a ghost, the ghost would cloak. If their was detection, the ghost would be screwed unless their was like, one hydra or one zergling. In which case, why was their detection in the first place.Quote:
Ghosts can do many things, and I'm fairly certain going against Zerg creatures and other people is certainly somewhere in his training. He has to know how to deal with Zerg creatures if he runs into them, and a gun certainly won't be as useful as a psi blade in close quarter.
The only time the psi blade would actually useful is if you are ambushed by a low (2-4) zerg basic units with detection nearby. If a ghost is in this situation, it isn't part of the plan. It means he fucked up.
The very fact that golaiths have glass instead of cameras disproves it. We don't know why its more effective, but they do have glass :/. That might be illogical but thats the lore. You can't argue with that. I was just trying to justify why it may be.Quote:
Guess what? If your glass breaks, you're screwed as well. And it most definitely is NOT bullet proof. Also, where as I have facts backing up my claim you don't. Where's your evidence that cameras limit FOV a lot? Modern day cameras? They can place microscopic cameras on different areas of the goliath to have an ever wider range of view than a normal glass shield. They can even place it so that the goliath pilot can see behind the goliath, something that glass certainly doesn't allow.
Maybe they have superstrong bulletproof glass. Who knows.
Please do.Quote:
Do I seriously need to explain to you why recently discovered protoss technology wouldn't be taught to a terran ghost in martial arts training?
Yes, and they can't always be stealthed. They do run into situations where they have to actually fight, and not rely on stealth.Quote:
First of all, I'm not saying that a fusion cutter is anywhere the same power as a psi-blade. Slashing a marine with a fusion cutter would probably scar his armor badly, while a psi-blade would literally cut it in two.
I didn't say its just as effective, im saying that its superfluous. I'm saying that ghosts do not have trouble killing things when they stealth right behind them. A psi-blade is excessive.
So you're going to use "they don't have it so their must be some magical reason why their standard weapons are fine" as an argument? That's laughable. Let me guess, you also think that siege tanks wielding nothing but a cannon is effective right? Sure, they don't need to put on any kind of anti infantry turret, let's just blast a marine with an entire shell.Quote:
Guess what. We used the same thing. Its called logic. A ghost does not need to cut a marine in twain, taking advantage of a vulnerable part in his suit would be far easier. The very fact that a ghost has no melee weapon despite the fact im sure something that could kill a armored unit efficiently in melee combat could be developed is proof enough that his standard weapons are fine for close quarters combat.
Yes I know they're different in lore, but if you think they don't use their stealth as a part of assassination or stealth attacks then you're sadly mistaken. Ghosts can fight invisibly just like Dark Tempalrs do, the notion that a DT might be better in CQB does not make the fact that a ghost can fight moot.Quote:
Dark templars are not comparable to ghosts. Gameplay wise they fulfill similar roles, but in lore, they are very different.
And hey guess what? If you've read Project Gestalt Zero you'll know that he wields a perfectly sized psi blade with ease. Point moot.Quote:
First of all, your suggesting that a ghost carries both a psi-blade and a gun. This is incredibly hard to do!. The psi projectors are VERY big, if you've seen the cinematics. Undoubtedly they are heavy too. On top of that, ghosts need to carry around moebius reactors, which seem like rather heavy backpacks, and many other stuff.
They're not warriors definitely, but they certainly know how to fight.Quote:
Ghosts are employed by the goverment mainly to act as black-op squads doing assassinations, spy, mental warfare, infiltrations, and battlefield snipers. The last thing a ghost is a "warrior"
More assumptions? Where is your basis for your assumption that Ghosts can't take on more than 2-4 Zerg units at a time? Stop making things up, we've already seen Ghosts like Gestalt Zero fighting a Hydralisk with nothing but a psi blade and killing it with ease.Quote:
Ghosts are not zealots. Ghosts are not superman. Ghosts are not stupid. Their is 0 reason why a ghost would be sword range of a zerg uncloaked, and not going to die in 5 seconds. If zerg ambush a ghost, the ghost would cloak. If their was detection, the ghost would be screwed unless their was like, one hydra or one zergling. In which case, why was their detection in the first place.
Yes, and guess what? Fucking up can happen, and would you rather have a psi blade or no melee weapon at all?Quote:
The only time the psi blade would actually useful is if you are ambushed by a low (2-4) zerg basic units with detection nearby. If a ghost is in this situation, it isn't part of the plan. It means he fucked up.
This isn't even an argument. Just because it's in the lore doesn't mean it's better. If you're honestly going to go by the argument you'd better be ready to defend why the Thor is great and the Viking is great. "It's in teh lore!"Quote:
The very fact that golaiths have glass instead of cameras disproves it. We don't know why its more effective, but they do have glass :/. That might be illogical but thats the lore. You can't argue with that. I was just trying to justify why it may be.
If you bothered to read, Kimera has already stated that the glass isn't bullet proof.Quote:
Maybe they have superstrong bulletproof glass. Who knows.
Your whole point is that equipping Ghosts with psi blades is not cost effective. Well guess what? Thors aren't cost effective, neither are Vikings because in real life they wouldn't even work properly. Starcraft is not real life, it's called the rule of cool, learn to live with it.
You realize how pathetic this argument is right? Ghosts aren't taught how to use psi-blades because only one terran actually managed to use one. Stop being obtuse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandonetho
Giving ghosts psi-blades would have to fit into one of the two categories.
a) Improving on an existing technology
b) Add additional functionality that ghosts are sorely lacking.
I do not see what "psi-blade" fits in all this. It makes zero sense. Ghosts do fine killing targets in melee range. Ghosts do not need to kill hydralisks at melee range. It isn't what they do.
In regards to fucking up, yes fucking up happens, but if you fuck up and your face to face with 8 hydalisks, your dead, and the people equipping you shouldn't be thinking of ways to counter all the way you fuck up. Thats not how an army is run. We should give ghosts jetpacks too. In case they fuck up. I could make an equally convincing arguement on how jetpacks would be viable for ghost.
I could continue argue on about how ghosts with psi-blades make no sense, how makes no sense to give a special ops/stealth force a blade that is prone to malfunction (see:fenix cinematic), glows intensely, and does nothing a silenced pistole cannot.
But that would be entirely pointless. Lore is malleable, and you'll always see it your way. I can't prove how ghosts shouldn't use psi-blades in SC because SC is a fictional universe.
Lore is a tool to develop a game. I could pull something right out of my ass about how thors are viable
see below
Thors have battlecruiser class weapon systems that are impossible to stabalize in smaller platforms. Designed for terrestial sieges where long term air-bombardment is unavailable. Even the largest tanks cannot withstand the shock of the armaments. Any larger, and the vehicle would be made completely unusable on uneven terrain. The solution was to an elevated, massive walker-class weapons platform, that allowed it to easily and stability deliver its munitions while remaining easily mobile,
I got that in 20 seconds.
The only thing you cannot do in lore is contradict, and Psi-blades on ghosts are just contradictions, and make the game seem really dumb. Ghosts have always struck me as "elite special ops forces", not "ninjas with lightsabers".
Your argueing that according to "lore" ghosts should have psi-blades. And I'm argueing the opposite. In the end, it doesn't matter. What does matter is that it contradicts the established theme for ghosts, and is stupid.
Though it seems we have gone terribly off topic :/
Sorry but that explanation blows. Making a walker is purely not feasible. There's way too many moving parts, something could snap under all the weight it's already carrying.
It's also just a bad design period.
Second, Ghosts can be analogous to ninjas actually, they're stealth units that do assassinations. That's what ninjas do. Them having psi blades is not a contradiction.
Third, lore has contradictions all the time, that's what retcons are for. It's your opinion maybe that ghosts using psi blades make the game seem really dumb, it's a fact that Ghosts in the game don't even have psi blades so your point is completely m00t anyway. Ghosts in the lore using psi blades is perfectly fine the way I see it.
You like to contradict yourself, do you think that psi blades are something that is easy to use? No? You said it yourself it takes a long time to learn, only the elite would be able to wield them effectively. So yes, an elite unit wielding something like a psi blade makes sense and you really can't disprove that.
Your ONLY argument that is somewhat legitimate but still terrible anyway is that it's not cost effective. Well, no one said anything about equipping all ghosts with psi blades, only the really good ones. That is what I would invest in. Your second argument is that it makes no sense. Bull.
Present day hydraulics systems needed to make a walker has too many moving parts. They could have easily used their highly developed nano-tech along with whatever other advances they made over 500 years to create a working mech.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandonetho
bullshit? Isn't that like exactly what you said about the cameras?
See how dumb this is?
this isn't science this is a game. I could point out to you how a not a single ghost assassination mentioned in lore has been done in anyway that would make using a goddam 1 meter psi-blade efficient, from nova's assassinations to mengk's families assassination, to the ghost sent to kill the alien cultists's assassinations. Assassinations don't work like that anymore, this isn't feudal japan.
lol. w/e. You think ghosts should get lightsabers, I think that's stupid. I think the conversation should end when this becomes our thesis
Don't take lore so seriously, they invoked the "rule of cool" more than it's advisable, lately...
Except cameras are actually feasible, whereas sniping a goliath pilot is even more feasible which thus leads us to the conclusion that having a giant glass shield that isn't bullet proof is a bad idea.Quote:
bullshit? Isn't that like exactly what you said about the cameras?
Psi blades aren't a meter long, you're just making things up again. You're also talking about cost effectiveness or things that don't make sense, then you just point out that it's a game. Seems like you're the one having problems with organizing your own argument. I could also point out to you that you decided to ignore the very story that shows the psi blade being used effectively.Quote:
this isn't science this is a game. I could point out to you how a not a single ghost assassination mentioned in lore has been done in anyway that would make using a goddam 1 meter psi-blade efficient, from nova's assassinations to mengk's families assassination, to the ghost sent to kill the alien cultists's assassinations. Assassinations don't work like that anymore, this isn't feudal japan.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandonetho
Gestalt, if anything, proves my point. They had to splice protoss dna onto a ghost just for him to be able to USE psi-blades. And he was, as the comic has only 180% the power of a normal ghost. Splicing genes from an alien race for a 80% performance boost? um ok.
And I was exaggerating about the 1 meter thing -_-.
Either way lore is a means to an end. And in the end, psi-blades on ghosts make no sense. You've still yet to provide anything substantial on why giving special op teams, ninjas, or any of the things you might think a ghost is lightsabers is anything resembling efficient. Which is why having it is is dumb.
And who said cameras are feasible? You?
Why not? Dr. Burgess had plans to mass produce Project Gestalt Zero. Also, Gestalt Zero completed every single mission he's ever taken on with 100% success. Seems like a pretty good deal to me.Quote:
Gestalt, if anything, proves my point. They had to splice protoss dna onto a ghost just for him to be able to USE psi-blades. And he was, as the comic has only 180% the power of a normal ghost. Splicing genes from an alien race for a 80% performance boost? um ok.
If you're going to claim something doesn't make sense, you have to prove it. I have proof of the manga itself that he Gestalt Zero was a concept that was developed for MASS PRODUCTION. I have proof that he killed 2 Hydralisks with no armour, just a psi blade. You have no proof of anything. All you're whining is "it doesn't make sense! it doesn't make sense!" first of all it's the year 2500 in a fictitious universe, second of all, you still haven't provided a reason for why it doesn't make sense besides claiming that the psi blade looks like a lightsaber which it doesn't.Quote:
Either way lore is a means to an end. And in the end, psi-blades on ghosts make no sense. You've still yet to provide anything substantial on why giving special op teams, ninjas, or any of the things you might think a ghost is lightsabers is anything resembling efficient. Which is why having it is is dumb.
I already have the comic showing Gestalt Zero owning many things with his psi blade, it's you who's making stupid claims. It's just your personal distaste for the idea, you have no evidence to suggest why it doesn't make sense. Ghosts are not modern day assassins, they don't follow the same rules.Quote:
you might think a ghost is lightsabers is anything resembling efficient. Which is why having it is is dumb.
Cameras are feasible because they're microscopic and provide the viewer with a very wide range of vision depending on how many cameras are placed around the goliath rather than the solid glass shielding which you still have yet to prove why it is better than cameras besides pointing out that "goliaths use it so therefore it's better."Quote:
And who said cameras are feasible? You?
I've already said why the glass shielding isn't better than cameras, you on the other hand just say "what if cameras break, what if cameras break!?"
What if the legs on the goliath break? He's still screwed, or are you going to say the "goliath uses legs instead of tracts so obviously legs are better" logical fallacy?
Your argument fails just admit it.
First you say it's not cost effective, I agree that it's not cost effective to equip all ghosts with psi blades, only the good ones or in fact only the ones that may be possible to wield it (ghosts who are enhanced by the Protoss).
You continue to say that you don't think Ghosts will suck with psi blades and I quote verbatim.
And yes, as we've seen Gestalt Zero is VERY effective with the psi blade.Quote:
I'm not saying that ghosts would suck with psi-blades
Your argument then consists of whining that it doesn't make sense because a rifle would be just as good. Do you honestly think guns are the solution to everything? Really?
You say that yes a psi blade would be very effective against a Marauder but a rifle would too (actually it wouldn't unless it's at long range) then you say it doesn't make sense to give a ghost a psi blade. I quote verbatim again.
Yes maybe if you read your own post you would see how ridiculous it sounds. "Psi blades are good, so is a rifle, psi blades don't make sense" and then fail to provide evidence.Quote:
And finally, if a ghost confronts a marauder in an installation, yes a psi-blade would be a very effective weapon. So would a rifle. Its simply not effective to give ghosts psi-blades.
Your other arguments consist of the Ghost screwing up and that means he's dead when you provide no evidence for why he'd be dead instead you just increase the number of opponents that he faces and you give him a zero percent chance to fight back without including any factors. "Oh he's dead cuz he's gonna be fighting 8 hydralisks" blah blah blah. Sorry but if you're going to make claims like that you'd better back it up with evidence. Show me evidence that a ghost of Gestalt Zero's caliber would lose to 8 hydralisks. He already fought 2 with just a psi blade and killed them easily.
I don't really care what you think, giving special ops units only one weapon (a rifle) is not a good idea. Why do you think the Green Beret use a shovel and the Spetsnaz use a ballistic knife? Do you think it doesn't make sense to give them melee weapons either? Give me a break.
Sure, understanding may not be needed for average, everyday usage, but it sure helps to know a thing or two when the tool in question breaks. Wherever I work, if somethings breaks, I make a point of sticking around the guy they hire to fix it, so I can learn a thing or two about it. That way, when it breaks again, I can fix it myself — boom — that's a couple hundred bucks we saved.
Wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by newcomplex
First example
Second example
Nova isn't part protoss.
nova the game also isn't in canon officially.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimera757
and pandotheno stop ranting. You don't have proof on 99% of the stuff you say. For instance, you have no proof a canister rifle is for long range use only. In the lore, ghosts also have access to a variety of assault rifles and smg. You have no proof that the cameras you describe couldn't fail on an en-mass scale. Or they couldn't be hacked into.
Stop trying to make it sound like your pseudo made up lore justifies something that's personal taste. The only substantial evidence you have that ghosts should be given psi-blades is the gestalt 0 comic. Guess what? The experiment was shut down. The scientist and his facility were destroyed. The lone test subject escaped, then joined the protoss. That sounds to me like it failed. If I were mengsk, you know what I wouldn't being doing? Asking that experiment to be reproduced, en-mass. That scientists in the comic is obviously crazy. His plans to "mass produce them" is delusion.
There's a good chance they'll be in the Spectres novel. Certainly Blizzard intended for the psyblade to be in the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by newcomplex
It was actually a pretty good experiment. It only failed because Burgess tried to understand the Khala.Quote:
The experiment was shut down. That scientists in the comic is obviously crazy. His plans to "mass produce them" is delusion.
The psi-blade certainly had nothing to do with the failure of the experiment. The neural inhibitor played a much larger role.
They wouldn't make Zero face so many hydralisks they could kill him. An 87% boost suggests he can kill them almost twice as quickly. I don't see why Zero would have to stop at three either, other than the problems involved trying to keep that many hydralisks on-base.Quote:
From lore, we already know a ghost can kill 2 hydralisks.
Several ghosts have demonstrated they prefer using a certain style. The one that nearly killed Kerrigan in Uprising, for instance, was a specialist in knife-fighting.
The two are linked. According to the current lore you need protoss enhancements to use psi-blades. Said protoss enhancements make it possible for ghosts to break free of the inhibitors.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimera757
Muadun broke the neural inhibitor. It had nothing to do with Zero himself. And if the Dominion were smart, they would have used a willing ghost. (Yes, those beings actually exist.)Quote:
Originally Posted by newcomplex
I retract that statement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimera757
meh. I like how you proved more in a sentence then the other guy proved in 8 posts.
Anyway...ghosts with lightsabers are still stupid, and in direct contrast with the "nitty gritty" theme of the terrans sofar established in lore, for the most part. It would be pretty dumb then to incorporate them into lore as anything beyond anomalies like gestalt.
Oh yes, let's just ignore my post entirely and say I'm making things up without trying to disprove any of it. Way to lose an argument.Quote:
and pandotheno stop ranting. You don't have proof on 99% of the stuff you say.
Before I reply to this, I'm going to predict that my following statement will blow your mind out of the water and thus you'll ignore it. Guess what, you're using a double standard. You have NO PROOF THAT GOLIATH PILOTS WON'T GET SNIPED EVERY SINGLE TIME USING A GLASS SHIELD. Guess what, the burden lies on your to disprove it because saying something like "you have no proof that cameras wouldn't fail en-mass" is bullshit. What is your reasoning that they'll fail en-mass? Who the hell is going to hack into them? If they could be hacked into, then the entire goliath would be hacked not just the cameras. Stop pulling bullshit answers.Quote:
You have no proof that the cameras you describe couldn't fail on an en-mass scale. Or they couldn't be hacked into.
My are you quite the hypocrite. Because what you just said describes exactly what you're doing, or are you going to deny it?Quote:
Stop trying to make it sound like your pseudo made up lore justifies something that's personal taste.
And look who doesn't know what he's talking about. You.Quote:
The two are linked. According to the current lore you need protoss enhancements to use psi-blades. Said protoss enhancements make it possible for ghosts to break free of the inhibitors.
Why don't you read your own arguments? Mine actually use LOGIC.Quote:
meh. I like how you proved more in a sentence then the other guy proved in 8 posts.
Now if you have actual evidence as to why ghosts with psi blades are stupid then post it instead of just saying they're stupid.
And yet again you show nothing but your own biased opinion. Talking to you is like talking to a brick wall. Earlier you said that I'm making things up just to justify my own personal taste? Read the quote, what does it sound like? Your own personal taste, you stupid hypocrite.Quote:
Anyway...ghosts with lightsabers are still stupid, and in direct contrast with the "nitty gritty" theme of the terrans sofar established in lore, for the most part. It would be pretty dumb then to incorporate them into lore as anything beyond anomalies like gestalt.
Hey, guess what? It's generally accepted that close combat units generally win when they get into close combat with people using guns! Even real life proves it. Yes, they have access to SMGs but do you actually think that an SMG is strong enough to penetrate some of the enemies that Ghosts might have to fight, as opposed to a psi blade? An SMG will not penetrate Marauder armour. A psi blade is good for silently killing enemies, guns are not. A silenced weapon is most likely not a strong enough weapon, you need needle weapons to penetrate the armour of regular marines, what makes you think an SMG will penetrate Marauder armour? Your imagination?Quote:
or instance, you have no proof a canister rifle is for long range use only. In the lore, ghosts also have access to a variety of assault rifles and smg.
I'm still not convinced that any Psi Blades can be mass produced. As I've said before, the Zealot's Psi Blade is just a separate unit which goes on his arm. It's not even connected to the rest of his armor. It could be lost extremely easily, easily enough for Terrans to accumulate a decent collection of them. And since it works independently of the rest of the suit, it can be easily modifiable by Terrans as well.
The PsyBlade just looks like it was heavily modified to be useful for Ghosts. And you have to take Dr. Burgess's claims that Gestalt Zero was going into "mass production" into perspective, because you don't "mass produce" Khalai nerve cords. Those still have to be found, probably just like Psi Blades. Mass production is misleading here - Zero was probably going to be a special class of elite soldiers, not mass produced at all, and their quantity bottlenecked by the amount of khalai nerve cords & psi blades they can find.
So there's not really any evidence that Psi Blades can be mass produced. It seems that the most parsimonious explanation, as Kimera would say, is that they can't, and the Terrans just use whatever ones they happen to find.
Yeah but that was after he got Templar nerve cords, which are even more impossible to find. Before that he just attacked defenseless Khalai. Granted, he didn't take alot of nerve cords from Muadun, but the supply is still finite; nerve cords don't grow back and throughout the entirety of that project they found only one templar.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandonetho
Terrans do have the ability to make psionic technology. I suspect that, if terrans can create psionic blades that don't use the Khala, that they could mass-produce them (in relative terms, they're probably still expensive, exotic technology). And sine Gestalt Zero could use a psi blade before he could enter the Khala*, I think either psi blades don't need the Khala or the terran version doesn't need it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gradius
(Burgess talked about how he was going to appropriate the protoss' Khala for the gestalts' purposes, suggesting Gestalt Zero couldn't enter the Khala. Which might explain why Burgess wanted to learn about the Khala; he couldn't use Zero as a test subject for that.)
I always thought it was, which would make them difficult to get. The terrans might have had a few and eventually reverse-engineered them to make their own copies.Quote:
As I've said before, the Zealot's Psi Blade is just a separate unit which goes on his arm. It's not even connected to the rest of his armor.
If they're stealing psi-blades, they'd have to modify them to be smaller. (Those "pods" they come out look heavy, and are designed for nearly ten-foot-tall aliens.)Quote:
The PsyBlade just looks like it was heavily modified to be useful for Ghosts.
Or, more to the point, Templar cords. I agree, Templar cords would seriously bottleneck gestalt production. I'm not sure I agree that psi blades must be modified. Alas, info on StarCraft: Ghost here is really vague; we're told the Dominion started using various new technologies, and one news report said it was a "hybrid" of protoss and terran tech. That could mean stolen and modified, or mostly terran built with some protoss stuff stuck in, or even copied protoss tech. If it doesn't involve khaydarin crystals, then it's at least plausible they're "mass produced". I suppose it boils down to... are using stolen protoss blades really parsimonious? If they're attached to the suit, it seems like it'd be harder to steal them than to replicate them.Quote:
And you have to take Dr. Burgess's claims that Gestalt Zero was going into "mass production" into perspective, because you don't "mass produce" Khalai nerve cords.
I think it's the former. The only explanation for how they work was mental power being focused through a crystal - something even a Ghost could do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimera757
There seems to be different Zealot suits. The SC2 Zealot concept has his entire arm armored. The Protoss in "Why We Fight" just had separate forearm units. It even shows a Protoss suiting up - they just slip them on & that's it.Quote:
I always thought it was, which would make them difficult to get.
I do think Terrans can find them easily enough though, especially since there's two per Zealot. For example, a Zealot's arm gets cut off, he warps back to a safe haven, but his arm stays on the battlefield with the forearm unit completely intact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandonetho
I find it immensely funny you don't get it yet.
Heres something you saidQuote:
Hey, guess what? It's generally accepted that close combat units generally win when they get into close combat with people using guns! Even real life proves it. Yes, they have access to SMGs but do you actually think that an SMG is strong enough to penetrate some of the enemies that Ghosts might have to fight, as opposed to a psi blade?
So essentially, first you disprove my real life analogy with "this isn't real life bro", then you use the same real life examples and apply them to the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandonetho
Yes, current day SMG's cannot penetrate armor. But in starcraft, standard gauss rifles are capable of functioning as midly ineffective anti-air turrets. Whos to say their SMG's, cant at least penetrate armor? Even today, we can make anti-armor rounds on large weapons, 500 years in the future its not at all a stretch to think they can make modern day armor piercing machine guns into the size of an smg.
You make so many of these numerous contradictions throughout your argument I'm not going to point out.
and your arguments aren't logical. In order for your arguments to be logical, we have to assume a couple things.
a)If someones shooting at you, that rather then shoot them back, you running up to them and attack them with a psi-blade is a superior option (note that ghosts do not have a sheilds of the protoss. This makes it very hard to approach enemies who are shooting at you without stealth, if not impossible)
b)ghosts, a special operations squad designed for pre-emptive strikes, sniping, battle-feild support, black-ops assassinations, counter-insurgency and a lot of other special op roles will be fighting melee opponents such as zerglings, hydralisks and zealots, in close range situations, on a solo basis
Find me a military role where "psi-blades" fit in. Note that it has to be solo, as if the ghost had cover fire, and the ghost lacks the sheilds a protoss has, a blade will be almost impossible to use.
c)that their is no way a ghost can efficiently assassinate a armored close range target without the use of psi-blades
Its not that a ghost will never encounter scenarios where a psi-blade will be useful, its that I find it dumb to equip a ghost with a piece of gear he will literally use in maybe 2%-3% of his missions, that couldn't be supplemented by an existing, cheaper piece of gear.
Maybe you should learn how to read? Did I ONLY use real life for my argument? Nope, in science fiction universes melee weapons own ranged weapons when guys using them get into close range.Quote:
So essentially, first you disprove my real life analogy with "this isn't real life bro", then you use the same real life examples and apply them to the game.
Except for the fact you have to use a needle weapon (AKA GAUSS RIFLE) to penetrate marine armor, as stated in the lore. And no where in the lore to date that I know of has there been an SMG that is a needler, secondly, Marauder armor is probably twice as strong as a marine's. Third, even if there is an SMG that can penetrate marine armor, these things can run out of ammo. Guns, can run out of ammo. Having a backup weapon is always a good idea. Now you're probably just going to reply with "he screwed up he deserves to die." However, that isn't even an argument. Prove how having a psi blade is counter productive and maybe I'll see your point, right now, I don't.Quote:
Yes, current day SMG's cannot penetrate armor. But in starcraft, standard gauss rifles are capable of functioning as midly ineffective anti-air turrets. Whos to say their SMG's, cant at least penetrate armor? Even today, we can make anti-armor rounds on large weapons, 500 years in the future its not at all a stretch to think they can make modern day armor piercing machine guns into the size of an smg.
Yet, you've failed to even point out a single contradiction.Quote:
You make so many of these numerous contradictions throughout your argument I'm not going to point out.
You think psi blades are only meant for fighting? Gestalt Zero can assassinate guys silently using a psi blade.Quote:
a)If someones shooting at you, that rather then shoot them back, you run up to them and attack them with a psi-blade is a superior option
You make all these assumptions and yet we do see Gestalt Zero fighting Hydralisks with a psi blade and he's good enough to dodge their spines. We saw Kerrigan use the butt of her gun to smash through a Goliath's glass shielding, oh why oh why didn't she shoot him instead? She must be stupid.Quote:
b)ghosts, a special operations squad designed for pre-emptive strikes, sniping, battle-feild support, black-ops assassinations, counter-insurgency and a lot of other special op roles will be fighting melee opponents such as zerglings, hydralisks and zealots, in close range situations.
Did I ever say that? No?Quote:
c)that their is no way a ghost can efficiently assassinate a armored close range target without the use of psi-blades
So what is YOUR argument that they shouldn't have psi blades?
First of all, prove to me this.
That it's detrimental to the Ghost. If you can't even prove it, you should be the one who should stop arguing because you're only whining about "it doesn't make sense!!!!!" and yet that's all you're doing.
1)http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/AGR-14_rifleQuote:
Originally Posted by Pandonetho
lolwat
2)Yes, because I need a lightsaber to assassinate people silently
3)So your telling me a ghost can realistically bypass 3 or more marines armed with the modern day equivelent of helicopter mounted miniguns aware of the ghosts presence in a direct charge with a melee weapon
huh.
4)Well, if the psi-blade is a)inefficient for assassinations and b)not viable for assaulting multiple ranged enemies....their is very little reason to use them outside of unprecedented scenarios. Which can't be prepared for.
lol learn the difference between an assault rifle and an SMG.Quote:
lolwat
It's another weapon in the Ghost's arsenal.Quote:
2)Yes, because I need a lightsaber to assassinate people silently
Does everything have to involve a charge with you? Psi blades are not just a charge and attack weapon. They're used in conjunction with the acrobatics of the Ghost.Quote:
3)So your telling me a ghost can realistically bypass 3 or more marines armed with the modern day equivelent of helicopter mounted miniguns aware of the ghosts presence in a direct charge with a melee weapon
And who says it's inefficient? You? From what I've seen, Gestalt Zero, an average Ghost, kicked ass with a psi blade. From what I've seen from you, zero evidence.Quote:
4)Well, if the psi-blade is a)inefficient for assassinations
Yes, Ghosts can use guns too, I've never said they couldn't.Quote:
)not viable for assaulting multiple ranged enemies.
And yet you have not proved a SINGLE detrimental factor to having a Ghost equipped with a Psi blade.Quote:
their is very little reason to use them outside of unprecedented scenarios. Which can't be prepared for.
Hey, BIG FLASHING NEON LIGHT SIGN: If you can't suggest a single detrimental factor to using psi blades, then what are you complaining about? Obviously your own personal dislike for them, or can you prove otherwise? If you can, post some reasons for why having a psi blade is detrimental. If you can't even do this, then I'll say it again, just stop.
Why do you think the Spetsnaz special forces uses the ballistic knife? Oh right, you don't have an answer to that so you just decide to ignore it the last time I pointed it out.
There's something to take into account about Protoss tech. If they use Khydarin crystals, can a race not engineered by the Xel'Naga use them, even if they're psychics?
Not all their tech uses crystals, I think. (Alternatively, the terrans found a different way of channeling the power.)
That costs money and space and research time.Quote:
It's another weapon in the Ghost's arsenal.
Acrobatics of a ghost? Thats what I meant by the concept of charging. As in charging towards your enemy, not nessicary by brute strength. No matter how much "acrobatics" I use, I will not be able to approach a fortification of marines with minigun strength weapons, without the sheilds of a zealot to protect me. It would be useful if the marines are unfortified and unaware, but then a ghost could just bust out his gun and mow them down, just if not more quickly.Quote:
Does everything have to involve a charge with you? Psi blades are not just a charge and attack weapon. They're used in conjunction with the acrobatics of the Ghost.
Inefficient at assassinations . Yes, he can "kick ass" with it. But if your purpose is to take down a single target as efficiently is possible, lightsabers are not the way to do it.Quote:
And who says it's inefficient? You? From what I've seen, Gestalt Zero, an average Ghost, kicked ass with a psi blade. From what I've seen from you, zero evidence.
But if 99% of roles could be preformed better/identically by a gun, 1% doesn't justify psi-blades.Quote:
Yes, Ghosts can use guns too, I've never said they couldn't.
Because ballistic knifes cost 15$ on ebay.Quote:
And yet you have not proved a SINGLE detrimental factor to having a Ghost equipped with a Psi blade.
Hey, BIG FLASHING NEON LIGHT SIGN: If you can't suggest a single detrimental factor to using psi blades, then what are you complaining about? Obviously your own personal dislike for them, or can you prove otherwise? If you can, post some reasons for why having a psi blade is detrimental. If you can't even do this, then I'll say it again, just stop.
Why do you think the Spetsnaz special forces uses the ballistic knife? Oh right, you don't have an answer to that so you just decide to ignore it the last time I pointed it out.
-_-
guess how much psi-blades cost. If I can equip a ghost with psi-blades for 15$ or 150$ or 1500$ or even 15000$, it might be worth it, for the <5% chance of use. Considering I need to splice protoss dna with terran to make a ghost capable of using a psi-blade, I don't think its a very good investment. The rest of my argument consists of proving how actual tactical use of a psi-blade is very, very small.
Contrary to what you may think, where I don't address questions that are good, I don't address the ones that are extremely stupid, such as comparing some 20$ knife to alien technology that requires gene-splicing in order to use.
Your assumptions of the costs are completely unfounded. Research time? I'm sorry, but they probably just picked it up from the battlefield and made modifications to it. Ghosts are the epitome of human evolution, Terrans already spend a lot of resources decking out Ghosts. Somehow research time is considered a negative? Terrans will always continue to research things, that's a moot point.
Proof?Quote:
Considering I need to splice protoss dna with terran to make a ghost capable of using a psi-blade
Oh yes, because the sole reason the Spetsnaz use it is because it's cheap. /sarcasm.Quote:
Contrary to what you may think, where I don't address questions that are good, I don't address the ones that are extremely stupid, such as comparing some 20$ knife to alien technology that requires gene-splicing in order to use.
At the end of it all, you still have failed to prove anything regarding the psi blade and how it's detrimental to a ghost's abilities. Seeing as how Ghosts are hardly something that exist en-mass, they're something you'd want to spend time making as good as possible. Not only that, you're under the assumption that guns are the solution to everything, and your only (weak) argument is that if a Ghost ever gets into a melee situation he screwed up and that's that. Nope, he shouldn't have a melee weapon to deal with the situation.
Actually the rest of your argument consists of zero evidence and assumptions.Quote:
The rest of my argument consists of proving how actual tactical use of a psi-blade is very, very small.
So let me get this straight, even if it DOES take Protoss gene splicing (which you've yet to provide evidence for), you're not going to apply a psi blade to him to ensure the survival of your enhanced soldier should he run into circumstances that were not forseen? Sorry, but I've yet to hear a single post from you that actually points out the negatives of having a psi blade.
Guess what, don't post again if you're going to use strawman arguments. Post again if you have actual points to make about what negatives there are to having a psi blade (on a rare super soldier that was further enhanced to become more valuable).