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ArcherofAiur
05-25-2009, 01:35 PM
Just wanted to bring this to everyones attention. Remember how the Zerg first gained the ability to travel between the stars when the Overmind lured a race of giant space creatures to Char.

"Behemoths are "the largest space faring creatures in the chartered galaxy." Immense and docile creatures and bearing resemblance to manta rays, behemoths travel through space, even between star systems, using their own energy."

Source: http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Behemoth#cite_note-SXN-0

I love how the've managed to reintroduce this species. I feel that the abilty to harbor broodlings inside them really fits their lore.

http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/3864/69177627.jpg


The name still needs a change though *cough cough* Leviathan

Gradius
05-25-2009, 01:47 PM
It should be noted that according to SotXN, Behemoths were used as Zerg mass transports. But this is definitely interesting.

Dread_Reaper
05-25-2009, 02:18 PM
I am going to have to disagree here Archer. I mean, I know they can't display everything in the game at the correct scale and size, but still, if this was the "largest space faring creature in the chartered galaxy", which (as we have seen from previous cinematics in SC1) is enormous compared to even Overlords, it looks WAY too small to be one and the same. Now could I see the Brood Lord having been DERIVED from the DNA of the Behemoth? Absolutely! A more vicious, scaled down version that can offensively use its cargo, but the Behemoths themselves?

I don't think so.

-Dread_Reaper

mr. peasant
05-25-2009, 02:21 PM
It should be noted that according to SotXN, Behemoths were used as Zerg mass transports. But this is definitely interesting.

Well, the Brood Lord does fire Broodlings at the enemy. Therefore, it stands to reason that it transports Broodlings. So, it's still lore compatible.

RamiZ
05-25-2009, 02:26 PM
as we have seen from previous cinematics in SC1
What are you talking about? What cinematic? Where did you see Behemoth?
Also guys, i found that Behemoth was also Creature that Transport Tyranids in WarHammer 40k :( , they couldnt even change the name :( (Blizzard ofc)...

Kacaier
05-25-2009, 02:31 PM
What are you talking about? What cinematic? Where did you see Behemoth?
Also guys, i found that Behemoth was also Creature that Transport Tyranids in WarHammer 40k :( , they couldnt even change the name :( (Blizzard ofc)...
Behemoth was the name of a Hive Fleet, like Leviathan. And it's a Biblical creature (a famous one). There's only so many names.

RamiZ
05-25-2009, 04:16 PM
Behemoth was the name of a Hive Fleet, like Leviathan. And it's a Biblical creature (a famous one). There's only so many names.
Yeah sorry, it is pretty messed up, but still Zerg got Broods that are called like Hive Fleets :( like Hive Fleet Leviathan, Tiamat or Jormungand...

ArcherofAiur
05-25-2009, 04:21 PM
I am going to have to disagree here Archer. I mean, I know they can't display everything in the game at the correct scale and size, but still, if this was the "largest space faring creature in the chartered galaxy", which (as we have seen from previous cinematics in SC1) is enormous compared to even Overlords, it looks WAY too small to be one and the same. Now could I see the Brood Lord having been DERIVED from the DNA of the Behemoth? Absolutely! A more vicious, scaled down version that can offensively use its cargo, but the Behemoths themselves?

I don't think so.

-Dread_Reaper

Looking at the above screen shot the brood lord is at least as wide as a battlecruiser. And remember, sizing in starcraft can be tricky (2 siege tanks in a dropship, how?)

Kimera757
05-25-2009, 04:47 PM
People claim you can see behemoths in the cinematic "The Warp". Not true though; those are just overlords.

MattII
05-25-2009, 04:48 PM
Given the Brood Lord is a new creature developed from the Guardian (it's evolved from the Mutalisk anyway), or possibly the old Queen (They had the Spawn Broodling ability) I find it hard to believe that it's related to the Behemoth.

Xeonio
05-25-2009, 05:06 PM
The zerg manipulate genetics to get their new units. The Brood Lord could easily be made from any number of creatures (since it evolves from the Muta, has broodlings, is ginormous...)

Gradius
05-25-2009, 05:19 PM
Well, the Brood Lord does fire Broodlings at the enemy. Therefore, it stands to reason that it transports Broodlings. So, it's still lore compatible.
The book says that the Behemoths have no weaponry, and that they're also used to transport all the other subspecies, including Overlords.


The zerg manipulate genetics to get their new units. The Brood Lord could easily be made from any number of creatures (since it evolves from the Muta, has broodlings, is ginormous...)
This.

Triceron
05-25-2009, 05:19 PM
Is this thing still evolved from the Muta? I can't say I like that idea if it's true. I'd prefer it be its own genus than be an evolved form.

ArcherofAiur
05-25-2009, 05:38 PM
The zerg manipulate genetics to get their new units. The Brood Lord could easily be made from any number of creatures (since it evolves from the Muta, has broodlings, is ginormous...)



The Starcraft manual usually has a zerg unit being derived from a core genus. Not saying it cant have other genetic bits thrown in but the lore seems to suggest a primary species that every unit evolves from.

mr. peasant
05-25-2009, 05:45 PM
The book says that the Behemoths have no weaponry, and that they're also used to transport all the other subspecies, including Overlords.

From a lore-wise perspective, the Brood Lord doesn't actually have weapons of its own. It simply ejects Broodlings at enemy targets. The fact the impact damages the target is a byproduct. It's as much a weapon as a Medivac who decides to eject a Marine on top of a Zergling and squishes it.

Norfindel
05-25-2009, 06:00 PM
The zerg manipulate genetics to get their new units. The Brood Lord could easily be made from any number of creatures (since it evolves from the Muta, has broodlings, is ginormous...)
Yes, the Guardian, and now the Brood Lord, evolves from the Mutalisk, and were 2 forms of the same original creature:

The Mutalisk has been little changed from its original form, the roving Mantis Screamer of the desolate Dinares Sector. Capable of both atmospheric and deep space flight, Mutalisks are the primary flying force of the Zerg.
They attack by spewing forth a highly concentrated acid spray that will burn through even the thickest of armour.

Guardian Form
Mutalisks can also metamorph into another form, which is believed to be based on the nesting form of the Mantis Screamer.

Also, note that the final Mutalisk attack is the Glave Wurm which was to be used originally for the Queen. Here's the description:

Queen
Type: Hive Warden
Core Genus: Arachnis Brood-Keeper
Primary Attack: Glave Wurm

The Zerg Queen does not produce larvae, as her name might suggest, but she has earned her royal status from her ability to spawn numerous other parasitic creatures.
The Queen can also attack by expelling a voracious symbiote that rapidly slices its way through opposing forces.
If the Mutalisk can produce a creature (the Glave Wurm), then the Brood Lord can produce Broodlings.

Rezildur
05-25-2009, 06:03 PM
Do we know for a fact that the Brood Lord is evolved specifically from the Mutalisk? Or is it just accessible to the larva once the Greater Spire has been evolved?

Visions of Khas
05-25-2009, 06:29 PM
BroodLords have been confirmed as being derived from mutalisks.

However - since when did we know that Brood Lords equated to Behemoths? Why make that leap? It's a war-faring breed, obviously, and looks nothing like the Behemoths seen in the cinematic.

electricmole
05-25-2009, 06:32 PM
i dont think the broodlords are the behemoths. behemoths are behemoths, its just ashamed that blizzard can't come up with a completely new design for the broodlord, it has a semi guardian crab like and behemoth manta ray design.

i bet we will see the zerg behemoth in the campaign or cinematics.

Triceron
05-25-2009, 06:39 PM
If the Mutalisk can produce a creature (the Glave Wurm), then the Brood Lord can produce Broodlings.

Which is a dangerous conclusion to lead to, because if that's true, there's no rule against any zerg unit not being able to spawn other types of zerg units, if evolved properly. I don't like that idea.

While I can understand something like Mutas producing Glaive Wurms, Queens/Brood Lords creating Broodlings, they were separate genus. The Brood Lord evolving off of the Muta and creating Broodlings breaks those rules. This is more of a lore bitchslap than infestors simply spawning pre-infested Marines. I mean what's next? Ultralisks spawning zerglings upon death?

ArcherofAiur
05-25-2009, 06:41 PM
Behemoths seen in the cinematic.

Behemoths arnt seen in any cinematic. See earlier posts made in this thread.

Kimera757
05-25-2009, 06:44 PM
This is the supposed behemoth seen in the cinematic. (They look like flat overlords to me.)

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/starcraft/images/9/90/SwarmSpace_SC1_CineTheWarp.jpg

Visions of Khas
05-25-2009, 06:46 PM
Broodlings are spawned from a packet of spores. Should the BroodLord develop those glands necessary to create the spores, then I see no reason why it couldn't create broodlings.

Moreover, Defilers house and produce numerous other creatures, as well. Why can't a breed create other breeds? Remember, Hives themselves are creatures spawning creatures.

ArcherofAiur
05-25-2009, 06:49 PM
This is the supposed behemoth seen in the cinematic. (They look like flat overlords to me.)

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/starcraft/images/9/90/SwarmSpace_SC1_CineTheWarp.jpg

Those are not manta ray shaped. They are overlord shaped.

Gradius
05-25-2009, 07:11 PM
From a lore-wise perspective, the Brood Lord doesn't actually have weapons of its own. It simply ejects Broodlings at enemy targets. The fact the impact damages the target is a byproduct. It's as much a weapon as a Medivac who decides to eject a Marine on top of a Zergling and squishes it.
I should have been more clear: it has neither weapons nor ways to defend itself. Here is the actual quote:

These creatures had no weapons, not even any defenses, but they carried the full strength and horror of all the Zerg subspecies.


Which is a dangerous conclusion to lead to, because if that's true, there's no rule against any zerg unit not being able to spawn other types of zerg units, if evolved properly. I don't like that idea.
With that being said, it's probably what actually happens. That's the way Zerg genetics work. Things are meshed up from absorbed species and can be given to any Zerg minion i.e. ultradense carapace from the behemoths, and the detection organ in the spore colony which came from the overlord.

Whanhee
05-25-2009, 07:28 PM
You know what would be cool? If the broodling also took damage from being ejected from the brood lord (hp increase to compensate for this). This would mean that if left alone, it would regenerate and be even more troublesome to deal with. Also, it might take extra damage for further shots, but deal more damage, but that seems to complicated.


Things are meshed up from absorbed species and can be given to any Zerg minion i.e. ultradense carapace from the behemoths, and the detection organ in the spore colony which came from the overlord.
Can the zerg create new creatures or new unit properties from scratch though? The only sc1 unit without any original creature was the scourge. The only ability they had which didn't seem to be derived from absorbed species was the explosiveness of scourge and infested terrans.

Visions of Khas
05-25-2009, 07:33 PM
The only sc1 unit without any original creature was the scourge.
Defilers, Broodlings, Scourge and Glaive Wurms.


Those are not manta ray shaped. They are overlord shaped.
Overlods are giant isopod shaped.

ArcherofAiur
05-25-2009, 07:35 PM
Overlods are giant isopod shaped.


Yah but not giant manta ray shaped which is what the lore says the Behemoths look like. The Broodlord however is definatly manta ray shaped.

Triceron
05-25-2009, 07:45 PM
That's the way Zerg genetics work. Things are meshed up from absorbed species and can be given to any Zerg minion i.e. ultradense carapace from the behemoths, and the detection organ in the spore colony which came from the overlord.

That I don't mind. It's already present in Zerg aesthetics, we know a creature is Zerg infested due to its spines, plated bio armor, sharp scythe-like appendages, etc.

What I'm talking about is literally a unit spawning another unit. A Mutalisk that evolves into a Brood Lord and suddenly carrying the genetic ability to spawn Broodlings, a creature once spawned by Queens, is convoluted. It would make more sense if a Brood Lord was its own genus, perhaps evolved from Broodlings or part of that genetic line, or having some relation to the old queen.

It's like if there was another unit in the game that literally spawns zerglings, it confuses people about where zerglings are spawned from if there are alternative sources other than larvae. I just don't like the idea that Mutas have the genetic potential to create Broodlings.

mr. peasant
05-25-2009, 07:54 PM
I should have been more clear: it has neither weapons nor ways to defend itself. Here is the actual quote:

And since then, the Zerg has assimilated a number of other species, which globally enhances them as a whole. So, even if didn't start off with a defense mechanism, it could have easily gain one from one of the other races. I mean, the Zerg developed the Lurker during the 1/+ year(s) of SC1 and quite a few new species during the five year peace between that and SC2.

Kimera757
05-25-2009, 07:54 PM
You may not like it, but it does fit the lore.

Spore colonies got their antenna from some place other than its "core genus", for instance.

Gradius
05-25-2009, 08:12 PM
And since then, the Zerg has assimilated a number of other species, which globally enhances them as a whole. So, even if didn't start off with a defense mechanism, it could have easily gain one from one of the other races. I mean, the Zerg developed the Lurker during the 1/+ year(s) of SC1 and quite a few new species during the five year peace between that and SC2.
Which is why the brood lord could just as easily be made from any number of creatures. The behemoth in SotXN was a lumbering beast, capable of transporting overlords in its skin flaps. And even considering the scaling of the game, the brood lord is too small to be the behemoth that was described in SotXN. I have no problem with saying that the behemoth was the core genus of the brood lord, but its purpose is clearly different from that of the behemoth. Otherwise they would have just called it the behemoth, not the brood lord. And you can't say "the brood lord is the behemoth," because it's clearly not.

mr. peasant
05-25-2009, 08:17 PM
Oh yeah, definitely. Wasn't really considering that the Brood Lord and Behemoth were one and the same but the former was derived from/based off the latter.

DemolitionSquid
05-25-2009, 09:48 PM
Anyone consider that the Brood Lords Broodlings are in fact the evolution of the Mutalisks Glaive Wyrms? So they're not the Broodlings from SC1, but instead a new strain which just happens to perform the same function as the old and is thus given the same name by the Terrans (who all of the Zerg names seen in game are given by)?

ArcherofAiur
05-25-2009, 10:10 PM
Which is why the brood lord could just as easily be made from any number of creatures. The behemoth in SotXN was a lumbering beast, capable of transporting overlords in its skin flaps. And even considering the scaling of the game, the brood lord is too small to be the behemoth that was described in SotXN. I have no problem with saying that the behemoth was the core genus of the brood lord, but its purpose is clearly different from that of the behemoth. Otherwise they would have just called it the behemoth, not the brood lord. And you can't say "the brood lord is the behemoth," because it's clearly not.

Agreed. Broodlords appear to be derived from the behemoths just like hydralisks were derived from the slotherin (think that was thier name).

ManjiSanji
05-25-2009, 10:31 PM
Anyone consider that the Brood Lords Broodlings are in fact the evolution of the Mutalisks Glaive Wyrms? So they're not the Broodlings from SC1, but instead a new strain which just happens to perform the same function as the old and is thus given the same name by the Terrans (who all of the Zerg names seen in game are given by)?

Makes sense, considering Brood Lords are evolved from Mutalisks (Er, they still are, right?).

MattII
05-25-2009, 10:47 PM
Agreed. Broodlords appear to be derived from the behemoths just like hydralisks were derived from the slotherin (think that was thier name).

We have no images of the Behemoths, so this is unprovable, and given that Broodlords have only turned up recently, probably false.


Makes sense, considering Brood Lords are evolved from Mutalisks (Er, they still are, right?).

Well I haven't heard any different.

n00bonicPlague
05-25-2009, 11:28 PM
No one posted this yet? For shame......

From the SC1 Manual:
As the swarms continued to grow and strengthen, the Overmind turned its thoughts towards its own future. It realized that within a few short centuries its race had assimilated all of the indigenous life upon Zerus. It knew that to further evolve the swarm, the Zerg would need to leave Zerus. The Overmind began to reach out with its senses, looking for something - anything - which would provide them with transport from this world. That opportunity soon arrived. A race of gargantuan, space-faring life forms passed through the Zerus system, and the Overmind called to them. Drawn to the barren world by this beacon, they were quickly assimilated by the swarm. The inclusion of super-dense hides and the ability to exist in a vacuum bolstered the genetic pool of the swarm. Soon the Zerg warriors were conditioned to survive the harshness of space.
Overlord
Type: Airborne Commander
Heavy Transport (advanced strains)
Core Genus: Gargantis Proximae
Primary Attack: None; may house other breeds

The semi-intelligent, space-faring behemoths known as the Gargantis Proximae were inducted into the Swarm so that their heightened senses could benefit Zerg warriors in battle. The Gargantis flyers were assimilated into the Swarm so well that the Cerebrates use them to maintain control over their forces. Overlords keep the warriors of the swarm ordered and coordinated during battle, and with their enhanced senses they often serve as advanced scouts. They have the innate ability to sense any hidden enemy units, including those under the effects of cloaking systems or distortion fields.

In addition to commanding troops against their enemies, the Overlords also have the responsibility of transporting Zerg warriors within the hollows of their reinforced carapace hides. This particular breed of Overlord can only be bred from a Lair or Hive after being genetically enhanced with Ventral Sacs.So there -- the Overlords are the Behemoths.

SpiderBrigade
05-25-2009, 11:32 PM
Noobonic, overlords are based on Gargantis Proximae, which are "behemoths" in other words they are very large. But there is another organism actually named Behemoth which is described as carrying overlords inside...which means it is separate from overlords/Gargantis Proximae.

n00bonicPlague
05-26-2009, 12:04 AM
Noobonic, overlords are based on Gargantis Proximae, which are "behemoths" in other words they are very large. But there is another organism actually named Behemoth which is described as carrying overlords inside...which means it is separate from overlords/Gargantis Proximae.Which novel?

RamiZ
05-26-2009, 02:48 AM
Behemoths are "the largest space faring creatures in the chartered galaxy." Immense and docile creatures and bearing resemblance to manta rays, behemoths travel through space, even between star systems, using their own energy.[1]
Yup, Spider is right...

ArcherofAiur
05-26-2009, 07:20 AM
Which novel?


Either Liberty's Crusade or Shadow of the Xel'naga. I think Gradius was saying its Shadow. Can someone pull a quote from that book? I lost mine :(


It almost seems like Blizzard might have messed up and said that overlords were the behemoths and then the author didnt know that and made a second behemoth species. I always thought it was wierd to have huge creatures carrying overlords when the overlords could carry the swarm just fine.

Kimera757
05-26-2009, 07:27 AM
It almost seems like Blizzard might have messed up and said that overlords were the behemoths and then the author didnt know that and made a second behemoth species. I always thought it was wierd to have huge creatures carrying overlords when the overlords could carry the swarm just fine.

No, the author was clarifying what was in the manual. It almost felt like Blizzard said "put this sentence, word for word, in the novel."

Hammy
05-26-2009, 09:46 AM
Which is a dangerous conclusion to lead to, because if that's true, there's no rule against any zerg unit not being able to spawn other types of zerg units, if evolved properly. I don't like that idea.

While I can understand something like Mutas producing Glaive Wurms, Queens/Brood Lords creating Broodlings, they were separate genus. The Brood Lord evolving off of the Muta and creating Broodlings breaks those rules. This is more of a lore bitchslap than infestors simply spawning pre-infested Marines. I mean what's next? Ultralisks spawning zerglings upon death?

Hatcheries also spawn broodlings upon death : )

Blazur
05-26-2009, 11:33 AM
Whatever the Brood Lords are from they sound hella fun to use as a Zerg player, and incredibly irritating to combat as anybody else. Looking forward to building an armada of these son'bitches.

Zero
05-26-2009, 03:01 PM
You guys are thinking way too close-minded. Based upon the unit information, the core genus of the Overlord is the Gargantis Proximae, or the original Behemoths. Since the Brood Lord mutates from the Mutalisk, but is also based on the genus of the original Behemoths, it means that the Mutalisk strain of warrior holds the Behemoth genetics that lay dormant until its mutation, similar to Lurker's base genetics lying dormant until the Hydralisk's mutation. There is no wrong way to define a Behemoth. When the book says that Behemoths were used to transport the Zerg warriors, it could be referring to Overlords, Brood Lords, or both. It doesn't have to be one or the other, they're both based upon the original Behemoth genetics and serve similar purposes (although in the Brood Lord's case we don't know yet).

ArcherofAiur
05-26-2009, 04:12 PM
No, the author was clarifying what was in the manual. It almost felt like Blizzard said "put this sentence, word for word, in the novel."

Did blizzard tell you thats how it went down?



You guys are thinking way too close-minded. Based upon the unit information, the core genus of the Overlord is the Gargantis Proximae, or the original Behemoths. Since the Brood Lord mutates from the Mutalisk, but is also based on the genus of the original Behemoths, it means that the Mutalisk strain of warrior holds the Behemoth genetics that lay dormant until its mutation, similar to Lurker's base genetics lying dormant until the Hydralisk's mutation. There is no wrong way to define a Behemoth. When the book says that Behemoths were used to transport the Zerg warriors, it could be referring to Overlords, Brood Lords, or both. It doesn't have to be one or the other, they're both based upon the original Behemoth genetics and serve similar purposes (although in the Brood Lord's case we don't know yet).

But when the book (shadow of the xel) says that behemoths were used to transport zerg it specifically says that the Behemoths were huge manta ray creatures that overlords could fit inside.

Zero
05-26-2009, 05:08 PM
But when the book (shadow of the xel) says that behemoths were used to transport zerg it specifically says that the Behemoths were huge manta ray creatures that overlords could fit inside.

Then perhaps there's a third group of Behemoth-type Zerg that more closely resemble the original Behemoths? Just because it's not in the game doesn't mean they don't exist.

HellishProphet
05-26-2009, 07:53 PM
It doesn't have to be one or the other, they're both based upon the original Behemoth genetics and serve similar purposes .

EXACTLY! Just because the genetic material is used to make one type of zerg organism, doesn't mean it cant be used n mixed to make another.

Overloads & Broodlords can(or are) based off the same core species, but different manipulations of it. The zerg may start with a simple core species but they mix & add in to make the new organism perfect for its duties.

So Overlords & Broodlords have the same base but are vasty different looking for the suiting of their goals.

But as i said, they are from the same core. Which is a massive, strong, beast who can transport even the biggest of lifeforms. If we go by scaling, the Overlord & BL are the largest(and toughest) zerg air units. The Overlord can transport ULTRALISKS! And from what I see the Broodlords is much bigger than the Overlord. Just look at the scales. A smaller Overlord can carry two massive monsters, so it makes perfect sense that a far bigger Broodlord can carry a EXTREMELY MASSIVE amount of Broodlings. Which, are smaller than zerglings.

That is the basic lore wise you can explain it. And you can even go as to say they restock at the Hive when the battle is over (lore wise ofc). Makes sense???

mr. peasant
05-26-2009, 08:11 PM
I doubt that in its current iteration, the Brood Lord is supposed to be larger than the Overlord. Regarding how it can carry so many Broodlings, the answer could simply be that the Broodlings are suspended in mid-development where they rapidly grow as and when they're needed, i.e. just before they get chucked out of the Brood Lord's mouth. Think of how ova and released from the ovary.

Norfindel
05-26-2009, 08:23 PM
Guys, let's get realist: the Brood Lord is just a Guardian with some extra skin over, and the ability to spit Broodlings, instead of acid spores. It's a bit different, but overall, it's safe to asume it's a further mutation of the original Guardian.
Maybe it has genes from the Behemoths, maybe it uses the native Mutalisk ability to spawn Glave Wurm, but spawns Broodlings instead.

n00bonicPlague
05-26-2009, 09:43 PM
This thread should really be moved to the SC Lore sub-forum.

ArcherofAiur
05-26-2009, 10:22 PM
Sub-forums are thread killers.

And to everyone saying broodlords cant be behemoths because there not that much bigger than overlords look at a battlecruiser. One would assume a dropship could fit in a battlecruiser so a overlord should be able to fit in a behemoth/broodlord. Even if the in game model doesnt look proportionally accurate.

MattII
05-26-2009, 11:12 PM
There is no proof that Brood Lords are any closer related to the Behemoths than Curruptors are, and indeed only the weakest sort of suggestion based on a few scant images of one and a brief suggestion of the other.