SC2 now officially on life support

[Mislagnissa]

https://www.pcgamer.com/a-decade-after-launch-starcraft-2-development-is-winding-down/

I am not surprised. I don’t know if this is the end of the StarCraft IP, although I wouldn’t be surprised either way. I don’t think Activision will make another RTS unless the genre somehow comes back from limbo. I think the most likely outcome will be mobile shovelware, as happened with Command & Conquer.

[Turalyon]

May SC hopefully and finally rest in the peace that it has, for many years now, been denied. Haha.

[Nissa]

This is a sad day. Not as sad as SC2's release dates, but there you go.

I hope they let the IP rest for another decade before doing anything with it.

[Mislagnissa]

This is a sad day. Not as sad as SC2's release dates, but there you go.

I hope they let the IP rest for another decade before doing anything with it.

Why should that make a difference? Nothing short of a reboot is going to fix the problems with the writing. Any SC3 or FPS spin-off will be a soft reboot anyway given Blizzard’s disregard for continuity.

What new apocalyptic threat would Blizzard pull out of the woodwork next time? More xel’naga? The UED? Amon’s ex-girlfriend? Another overmind? Another protoss empire? A new fourth race? A race even more advanced than the xel’naga? An enemy race of the xel’naga? The creators of the xel’naga?

Anything is possible where Blizzard is concerned. It will alienate anyone who invested in prior lore, but who cares right?

[Mislagnissa]

https://venturebeat.com/2020/10/27/ex-blizzard-dev-chris-metzen-unveils-warchief-gaming-tabletop-game-company/

Metzen is running a tabletop game company. Oh joy.

Unless he has actually developed as a writer in the last three decades, which he shows no signs of having done, I fully expect that this new effort will be just as much of an incoherent mess as his last ones.

[Turalyon]

Show us on the doll where Metzen hurt you, Misla. Lol

I must say, your enduring petulance is somewhat cathartic. I never feel the need to behave overtly negative or cynical here with you around because you assuredly do it all for me. Haha.

[Mislagnissa]

Show us on the doll where Metzen hurt you, Misla. Lol

I must say, your enduring petulance is somewhat cathartic. I never feel the need to behave overtly negative or cynical here with you around because you assuredly do it all for me. Haha.

If you must know, then it’s a combination of jealousy and disappointment. I’m jealous that Metzen was so successful despite his clear lack of talent/skill (he’s a much better artist than writer) when so many better writers languish in obscurity. I’m disappointed because his work is littered with the rudiments of potentially good stories that are never explored.

I read through the old Starcraft website on the internet archive. I read through what little we know about the development of Warcraft 3’s story. I find myself more intrigued by the ideas that were discarded than by the premises of the final games. That’s not a feeling that any writer wants to evoke in their reader.

Metzen is clearly passionate and has the potential to be a good writer. What he needs is structure and oversight to cultivate that potential. He cannot be left to his own devices. He needs an editor.

On the bright side, video game communities nowadays are more discerning when it comes to storytelling. If Metzen makes the same choices again, as I reluctantly predict he will, then I hope people will call him out for it.

Although he is working with a new team who might not give him the same leeway that Blizzard did, so who knows what could happen? Maybe he’ll finally receive the oversight he needs to produce a well-written story.

Fingers crossed.

[Turalyon]

Eh. I could care less about what Metzen did, didn't do nor what he's going to do next these days. Not sure why you'd bother to still obsess over him (or rather your resentment of him) and his goings-on after all this time, especially when you're seemingly aware of it being such a negative influence on you already.

You should also be aware that Starcraft's success is only partly attributable to Metzen. The game was put together by other people, too, you know. It's also arguable whether Metzen's contribution is really what what made Starcraft endure/memorable over the years since the solely lore/story fans of Starcraft represent only a small number of the total fans/advocates of Starcraft. These days, the people who clamour for quality story and lore in the games are considered to be the minority given the data collected on those who play the games (not many people have even finished the campaigns) and online purchases (people seem to pay more for cosmetic or gameplay options like Commanders - which also take less effort to produce - than the Nova Covert Ops campaigns - which also take more effort to produce).

Also, the success of anything is somewhat and usually independent to the supposed "quality" of a product. The potential success of almost anything is really just due to timing and proper marketing - the quality of the product itself is unimportant unless it can be twisted into something marketable. You can have a bonafide perfectly fine product (or not as the case may be...) but it ain't anything if you can't find a way to sell it. Like all "successful" stories just really being elaborate and compelling illusions to engender suspension of disbelief for you to buy into the fiction/themes/characters (contrary to what it objectively really is - something that was made up in someone's/some peoples mind/s), the success of almost anything has nothing to do about the product itself but how well something is marketed to create willing suspension of disbelief of the superior quality of that product (contrary to what it objective really is - just a "thing"). In short, story-telling quality ain't worth anything in and of itself (sadly) unless you make it a selling point. Because that wasn't what the original Starcraft was about, it kinda gets a free pass on this front (I think why it became memorable is because the story was initially unsung and unexpected - a timing thing where games weren't known for story depth then)... unlike Sc2, where there was marketing focus on it and modern games having more standards of "quality" than before which meant it was more legitimately open to scrutiny and criticism. That's my take on it anyways...

[Mislagnissa]

The story being mediocre wouldn't annoy me as much if the fanboys didn't constantly praise it and chase me out of the fandom for not worshiping Kerry.

The Confederacy, Conclave, and Cerebrates (or the three Cs if you'd like) were perfectly serviceable as governments/cultures representing their respective species and had plenty of room for exploration/expansion. Instead Metzen killed them all off shortly after their introductions in order to propel the careers of his personal favorite shallow characters.

One of the recent short stories was about that nameless zergling from the Heart of the Swarm cinematics. That was the best idea that the writers could come up. Apparently the fanboys loved it.

I once briefly thought that without Metzen, Blizzard could engage in course correction. Instead, they're doubling down on the stupid.

Several thousand pages of lore on the wiki as of right now, and all of it wasted because of this utter lack of care for the verisimilitude of the setting and its inhabitants.

I wish I didn't care, but I can't stop watching this trainwreck.

[Turalyon]

Blizz is too large now to consider going back to being "creative". It's all about money now and appeasing the lowest common denominator to sustain itself. Why you should think otherwise even with Metzen leaving is beyond me...

I can (and often) consider SC as standalone and doing well/acceptable enough on it's own merit really(even without BW). As such, I don't mind huge status quo changing things like what you described since I usually engage most things with the expectation there isn't going to be more, that it's a one and done sort of thing. Having things change hugely and giving a sense that "shit is real!" and "happening" rather than some languidly imposed status quo that defies reason seems to work better for game stories when they can't guarantee the possibility of future entries. I know you like the prospect of this sprawling protracted thing that can go on for considerable time but the momentum of Starcraft's fictional universe didn't really lend itself to that imho. The fulcrum of the story is the three races colliding and having lasting consequences arising from that and Sc1 does that well enough on it's own.

[Mislagnissa]

Blizz is too large now to consider going back to being "creative". It's all about money now and appeasing the lowest common denominator to sustain itself. Why you should think otherwise even with Metzen leaving is beyond me...

I can (and often) consider SC as standalone and doing well/acceptable enough on it's own merit really(even without BW). As such, I don't mind huge status quo changing things like what you described since I usually engage most things with the expectation there isn't going to be more, that it's a one and done sort of thing. Having things change hugely and giving a sense that "shit is real!" and "happening" rather than some languidly imposed status quo that defies reason seems to work better for game stories when they can't guarantee the possibility of future entries. I know you like the prospect of this sprawling protracted thing that can go on for considerable time but the momentum of Starcraft's fictional universe didn't really lend itself to that imho. The fulcrum of the story is the three races colliding and having lasting consequences arising from that and Sc1 does that well enough on it's own.

What I meant is that the war as depicted oneshot in SC1 could have feasibly been expanded into an arc spanning multiple games. The period depicted in episode 1 where the three sides fight over terran space could have been expanded into multiple arcs spanning multiple games.

Instead Blizzard just breezed through every possible plot point that the writers had world built at that point, forcing each game to basically make up a bunch of new stuff to keep the story going.

I agree with you that it works better as a standalone and that the sequels were unnecessary. On the other hand, I still think it suffers from being an RPG/movie/comic plot crudely transplanted into the RTS format.

The common problem I see in the Blizzard RTS titles is that they're telling RPG stories rather than RTS stories. RPG stories are better suited for much smaller scales than the ones in RTS games. RTS titles are better suited for political thriller and military fiction, which have a different set of standards than your typical drama.

In SC1, the myopic focus on the four recurring terran characters (Raynor, Duke, Mengsk, Kerry) comes at the expense of the greater terran, zerg, and protoss organizations. A successful rebellion (as opposed to "silly humans infighting, leaving them vulnerable") doesn't fit with the two alien invasions going on. The zerg focusing all their efforts on Kerry Sue doesn't fit with their shtick as an aggressive hegemonizing swarm hellbent on eating everything.

But, again, hindsight 20/20.

There's a bunch of new Warcraft clones in development. Amber (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/fireembergames/amber-chronicles-of-lhur-a-new-rts-campaign-and-competitive/), Liquidation (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/liquidation/liquidation-a-rts-rpg-hybrid), Edge of Chaos (https://edgeofchaosrts.com/), Immortal (https://www.sunspeargames.com/)... I'm keeping my eyes on those.

Sadly there's no scifi RTS titles that capture what drew me to (https://electriccartilage.wordpress.com/2011/11/25/the-celestial-terrestrial-and-the-diabolic-the-three-faction-archetype/) Starcraft. Honestly, space marines vs aggressive hegemonizing swarms vs Tribal-Wizard-Warrior-Poet-Scientists is not a premise unique to Starcraft. Atrox (https://www.mobygames.com/game/atrox), Natrolis (https://www.mobygames.com/game/dark-planet-battle-for-natrolis), Starfront (https://www.mobygames.com/game/starfront-collision), and Helldivers (https://www.mobygames.com/game/helldivers)all touched it. Not to mention there are a bunch of games about bug wars in the vein of Starship Troopers.

The three race thing is basically Starship Troopers plus a third side. Ancient aliens, white angels, sapient robots, whatever. Even Aliens vs Predator counts.

There is an SST RTS in development (https://store.steampowered.com/app/1202130/Starship_Troopers__Terran_Command/), but it doesn't look like the bugs will be playable. Sadly.

Speaking of SST, apparently the Roughnecks cartoon gave them the ability to engage in gene splicing (https://starshiptroopers.fandom.com/wiki/Nurser_Bug) like the zerg and tyranids do. Between that and the addition of the God Bug (https://starshiptroopers.fandom.com/wiki/God_Bug), the Pseudo-Arachnids are now pretty much the pre-Kerry zerg but without the personalities that characterized the Overmind and cerebrates.

We live in strange times if the Pseudo-Arachnids are better at being zerg than the actual zerg.

[Nissa]

Blizz is too large now to consider going back to being "creative". It's all about money now and appeasing the lowest common denominator to sustain itself. Why you should think otherwise even with Metzen leaving is beyond me...

I can (and often) consider SC as standalone and doing well/acceptable enough on it's own merit really(even without BW). As such, I don't mind huge status quo changing things like what you described since I usually engage most things with the expectation there isn't going to be more, that it's a one and done sort of thing. Having things change hugely and giving a sense that "shit is real!" and "happening" rather than some languidly imposed status quo that defies reason seems to work better for game stories when they can't guarantee the possibility of future entries. I know you like the prospect of this sprawling protracted thing that can go on for considerable time but the momentum of Starcraft's fictional universe didn't really lend itself to that imho. The fulcrum of the story is the three races colliding and having lasting consequences arising from that and Sc1 does that well enough on it's own.


I respect your mindset here (particularly the one-off part), but I do think SC could have supported a larger universe. The potential was there. All Blizz needed to do was show off more KMC/UP, show how the Dominion works and maybe a competition of power with Mengsk, create more personalities/characters within the swarm, enrich and deepen Protoss lore...it's all there, ready to be set up. It looks to me that Blizz simply couldn't see where to go with it.

[Mislagnissa]

I respect your mindset here (particularly the one-off part), but I do think SC could have supported a larger universe. The potential was there. All Blizz needed to do was show off more KMC/UP, show how the Dominion works and maybe a competition of power with Mengsk, create more personalities/characters within the swarm, enrich and deepen Protoss lore...it's all there, ready to be set up. It looks to me that Blizz simply couldn't see where to go with it.

I agree to an extent. I don’t like the way Mengsk was centered in the terran lore and prefer an actual confederation like they described on the 1996 website.

I don’t like Raynor and Kerry for the same reason. They shouldn’t be the main characters of the entire universe. Metzen transplanted a small scale RPG plot into a much larger RTS setting where it didn’t make sense.

This goes back to Tura’s statement that SC was written as a standalone story without room for sequels. If you want a larger universe, then you have to build it from the start. You can’t go off ad hoc from canon SC1. Among other things, the ending leaves the infrastructure of all three sides in ruins.

If you want a larger setting, then you have to write it holistically. Setup the terrans as an interstellar confederation, the zerg as an interstellar swarm, and the protoss as an interstellar empire. Explain their cultures, why they’re fighting, etc. Explore the distinctions between the terran colonies, zerg broods, protoss tribes, etc.

Then and only then should you start writing characters and stories. And you shouldn’t make a small cast of characters the center of the universe. Don’t dilute the thematic distinctions of each side by making the zerg good guys or human or the protoss weak wimps who need humans to save them. Don’t introduce lazy plot contrivances. Don’t be myopic. Etc. It’s not hard. I’m not expecting Shakespeare, just something serviceable. Look at Westwood games for pointers.

The terran campaigns should be about how they handle the two alien invasions. Studying the zerg infesting their planets. Invading protoss space for resources and revenge. Allying with the dark protoss. Standard infighting between colonies jockeying for power. Etc.

The zerg campaigns should be about how they fight the other races. Invading terran space to abduct people by the millions and study the various psychic mutations. Fighting off the cerberus cyborg lobotomized enslaved zerg. Sending forces to protoss space to study ancient ruins and run interference. Etc.

The protoss campaigns should be how they handle their side. Invading terran space to halt the zerg infestation. Defending their space from terran space. Reclaiming terran space for their empire. Fighting between the light and dark protoss. Etc.

But this is a moot point anyhow because the lore is already screwed beyond repair and can’t be fixed even if Activision was ever so inclined as to try, which they don’t seem to be.

We’re better off writing an original universe. Anybody want to restart my old thread about an original universe?

[Turalyon]

SC1 could have feasibly been expanded into an arc spanning multiple games. The period depicted in episode 1 where the three sides fight over terran space could have been expanded into multiple arcs spanning multiple games.

Seems to me that this is an issue of unrealistic expectations, whether at the time or retrospectively. I like to take things in regard to what they were able to do at the time. Stories for games (especially RTS) were not prone to such standards as the scope and quality of a game's fictional world-building like most games are today. Starcraft was perhaps one of the first that bothered to do it all when it could've been easily deemed largely unnecessary back then. Coupled with the fact that no-one had any idea if it was going to be a hit or not, the production of the thing would've been about getting the best product they could out there rather than considering franchise potential. Most modern stories (whether it be games or television even) these days are usually designed to have continuation/sequels or some such rather than focusing on telling a good story in one hit largely because it's a commercial no-brainer to do so. So while yes, it's nice that we "could" have had those things, it's a pretty entitled and indignant belief to condemn it because no-one had foresight to include it back then when we "could" have easily gotten even less than we already did...


Instead Blizzard just breezed through every possible plot point that the writers had world built at that point, forcing each game to basically make up a bunch of new stuff to keep the story going.

I don't know. Is it better that they actually resolved those plot points than potentially not having the opportunity to resolve them at all/be forever open? You keep forgetting that there was no guarantee that a sequel would ever be feasible or possible at the time. Besides, every continuation of a property (sequel, prequel or even disconnected entry in the same universe) is really just a blatant attempt to make more money/to keep the story going. It's not exactly a revelation...


The common problem I see in the Blizzard RTS titles is that they're telling RPG stories rather than RTS stories. RPG stories are better suited for much smaller scales than the ones in RTS games. RTS titles are better suited for political thriller and military fiction, which have a different set of standards than your typical drama.

There aren't many good examples, so it's really hard to say there's a standard that should be applied. I guess you could say C&C would fit what you're looking for but then again the most memorable thing about those stories are still the individual characters (ie: Kane). The narrative's in those stories are rarely ever compelling on their own.


In SC1, the myopic focus on the four recurring terran characters (Raynor, Duke, Mengsk, Kerry) comes at the expense of the greater terran, zerg, and protoss organizations. A successful rebellion (as opposed to "silly humans infighting, leaving them vulnerable") doesn't fit with the two alien invasions going on. The zerg focusing all their efforts on Kerry Sue doesn't fit with their shtick as an aggressive hegemonizing swarm hellbent on eating everything.

Thing is, I see it a bit differently. To me, I see the characters as just being representative and symbolic of the traits of their respective organisations or themes the story is trying to convey. For example, Raynor is the dumb/ignorant idealistic everyman, Kerrigan is the naive optimist, Mengsk is the pragmatic realist and Duke is the stubborn instititionalist, covering/representing the broad spectrum of what it is to be a Terran/human.

As to your hang-up with Kerrigan being a "Sue" in Sc1 (BW's a different matter...), it's important to note that that's tied to her status of being the "determinant", which in itself is a Watsonian (in-universe explained) "Sue" conceived by the Overmind. Kerry specifically being the "determinant" is less relevant to me (especially so since although she is considered powerful and a blowhard - she is actually shown to be an abject failure in Sc1) than that the story ultimately seems to be also telling me that the "determinant" itself is irrelevant. In fact the "determinant" is really, if you look close enough, just a psychological coping mechanism employed by the Overmind to assuage it's own fears. Once it got it, it no longer feared - as the story in Overmind campaign goes to show us right from its beginning. Furthermore, it can be said that the Overmind's fixation on a "determinant" and achieving it, is the real reason it lost. Overcoming it's fear through a false pretense (the "determinant") gave it overconfidence and made it prone to hubris, unwittingly exposing itself a weakness that then got exploited. What's especially great about this, is that the writers likely did not intend this or even consider/comprehend this aspect when writing it, yet it is present and can be interpreted that way from what we've been given.


Sadly there's no scifi RTS titles that capture what drew me to (https://electriccartilage.wordpress.com/2011/11/25/the-celestial-terrestrial-and-the-diabolic-the-three-faction-archetype/) Starcraft.

Universe at War is pretty cool and somewhat in the vein of Starcraft. It may feel a bit more superficial than most in it's lore, but their three-way is kinda dynamic.



I respect your mindset here (particularly the one-off part), but I do think SC could have supported a larger universe. The potential was there. All Blizz needed to do was show off more KMC/UP, show how the Dominion works and maybe a competition of power with Mengsk, create more personalities/characters within the swarm, enrich and deepen Protoss lore...it's all there, ready to be set up. It looks to me that Blizz simply couldn't see where to go with it.

It's that or it was just there as "fluff" to give off the illusion of a universe greater than what it is (a made-up fantasy/fiction). It's stuff that could/would makes things more interesting, but you don't have really have to delve into it. It's better off firing away in one's own imagination, which I think was possibly the intent with it's inclusion. I'm fine with that honestly.

[Mislagnissa]

It was a stupid idea to shoehorn sequels after a story that was never intended to have sequels or support a wider universe. If you want sequels or a wider universe, then you need to prepare for that from the start.

Starcraft has garbage storytelling/lore right now. The three races have become ugly stupid parodies of themselves. It’s impossible to fix without a reboot, and that’s assuming Activision can ever hire competent writers.

Most lore fans have long since jumped ship when it became clear the lore was falling apart, and those who remain are... talking to them is like bashing my head against cinderblocks.

The fanfiction scene has long since degenerated into “Kerry this, Raynor that.” Dear God, I hate those stupid characters so much now. Their soap opera took over the franchise to the exclusion of everything else.

I just want a SC setting that isn’t stupid crap. A military scifi with the three C’s: Confederations of Colonies, Conclaves of Tribes, and Cerebrates of Broods. Is that too much to ask for?

Anyway, I’m part of an SC Discussion discord where we sometimes discuss starcraft stuff. It’s more responsive than this forum. If you want to join, then send me a PM and I’ll get back to you with a discord link.

You can also visit the Unofficial SCLegacy discord. I posted the invite to the other SC Discussion discord on there too. https://discord.gg/CyUvEBy

[Mislagnissa]

Eh, what the heck. Here’s the link to the SC Discussion discord I’m hanging out at. https://discord.gg/hMZHQcDRFz

[Turalyon]

It was a stupid idea to shoehorn sequels after a story that was never intended to have sequels or support a wider universe. If you want sequels or a wider universe, then you need to prepare for that from the start.

While I somewhat agree, I think this opinion is also partly misguided consumer privilege (don't take that as a dis, I'm vulnerable to it, too!) and misrepresents what the main appeal of Starcraft is and the reasons for it having a sequel. Starcraft's appeal and longevity is its gameplay and mechanics first and foremost. The story/universe was only fleshed out and developed much later, squeezed into what was already produced to "explain" what we're seeing/playing. The game came first and the story was secondary, not the other way round as your opinion suggests. In that light, it's a wonder it's cohesive and compelling enough as it is really.

Unlike today, games back then didn't have the widespread and generalised appeal nor the luxury of relying on stories to sell themselves/to reach a wide audience. The development of Starcraft1 was never about creating a franchise or thinking about the future, but to make a game that people will want to play (and hopefully, a lot) in the now to pay back the hardwork they put into it. Back then (and now still is), sequels primarily were only ever considered after the fact and if the original did much better than expected, not because of any desire to continue a story/develop lore. I don't mind this in one way, because it forces developers to make an outstanding single standalone product but equally and in an opposite manner, it's partly why I'm leery and cynical of ALL sequels/prequels/continuations/reboots (to an extent) since the justification for their existence is almost always commercial than anything else. In the same vein, I don't inherently trust new IPs that tout longevity or sequels as part of their "thing" since that lends them an excuse to drag things out unnecessarily and purposefully deny resolution (which is kinda part of that distasteful commercial aspect I was talking about before). Since there's no guarantee that sequels are possible (unless it's fully funded/confirmed in advance - a rare thing in and of itself!), it's difficult to invest/trust such a thing.

Confirmation bias aside, Sc2 indeed seems to be a testament to what I've just said. I've always been passively against (yet hopeful!) a sequel ever since BW only to be, expectantly and disappointedly, vindicated in my opinion when it came out. Having said that, I still enjoy Sc2 in terms of its gameplay and I've replayed it just to experience it but never to the same extent and number of replays I've had for Sc1, even in all it's ugly/outdated graphics and gameplay, just for the story/dialogue being so darn compelling.

[Mislagnissa]

To expand on that a bit more...

I don’t think a story mode was ever needed. The brief lore on the classic battle net starcraft strategy compendium was plenty sufficient. The manual lore was a nice bonus.

But the story mode was unnecessary. And, with the benefit of hindsight, ultimately detrimental to its own integrity.

Compare Helldivers, which has counterparts to terrans, zerg, and protoss. It has extremely barebones lore and no story because it’s purely a multiplayer game. It hasn’t setup any integrity to destroy. The four sides fight and that’s it. The Illuminate and Bugs don’t have their civilization arbitrarily destroyed without ever developing it enough for us to care if it gets destroyed in the first place. They don’t team up against Earth or the space devil. The Bugs don’t become lackeys to the hero’s girlfriend.

In my opinion, you should either write a non-stupid story or don’t write one at all.

But you would expect that the fanfiction scene would offer something for anybody with reservations about the canon. Well, not this time.

Starcraft has dozens of potentially interesting licensed fiction that nobody cares about, as well as plenty of stupid stories. The fanfiction scene is completely overwhelmed with “Kerry this, Raynor that” and there’s pretty much nothing I can enjoy because all the people with similar tastes to my own left years ago.

A plot as simple as “actually explain why the light and dark templar are opposed in the first place and how they reconcile” is completely absent. In canon they team up because plot, despite the eon of strife and discord. It makes about as much sense as Israel teaming up with the Fourth Reich. No fanfic writers left have enough critical thinking skills to actually interrogate this either, or else are too slavishly loyal to “muh canon” to bother interrogating despite their better nature.

The same thing goes for simple plot hooks like “terran politics” or “zerg with initiative.” The terrans are always organized into monolithic dictatorships under Mengsk, Raynor, or the King of Earth. The zerg are always the mindless lackeys of Kerry.

The fanfiction scenes for children’s cartoons from the 90s have more depth than that. Sadly.

I know the Starcraft lore has always been barebones. It went through several revisions before release that I can discern. The manual was a barebones pitch intended to get a reader pumped about the actual game.

The website/manual pitch was tropey as hell. The terrans are every 80s/90s scifi combined: space cowboys, cyberpunk dystopia, confederation politics, arbitrary environmentalism, etc. The zerg are tyranids and nurgle daemons combined, with some possible influence from the Vang novels. The protoss are a mix of The Predator, Eldar, Imperium/Adeptus Astartes, the ancient astronauts conspiracy theory, and the jedi/sith schism.

But with proper execution it could have been enjoyable, or at least sufficient to be built upon by later writers. Instead, Blizzard did their typical mediocre writing.

It’s all garbage now and there’s no other fandom for me to switch over to or a group of people with like-minded tastes to talk to. I can’t get into 40k because the tyranids don’t have an Overmind voiced by Paul Eiding. I can’t get into Halo because Gravemind is... insane and directionless, has no pov stories, no playable campaigns in the RTS. The Vang novels give the vang pov chapters but there’s no fandom for the series. The bugs in Starship Troopers don’t have pov stories, or any apparent culture, or playable RTS campaigns, or any fans like tyranids do.

For a very brief period of time, Metzen stumbled upon a really interesting formula by pulling together various aspects of other works to produce a new synergized whole... and then immediately fucked up by throwing it in the garbage in favor his girlfriend insert. He completely stripped away what little culture and distinctiveness that he world built up to that point, left the zerg completely directionless and lacking in initiative, and finally to add insult to injury he turned them into peaceful space hippies.

I’ve been trying to brainstorm and write an original scifi setting recycling the ideas I liked... without success... for I don’t know how long. Two, three years now?

This has become so frustrating for me that it’s interfering with my ability to focus on other things. I don’t know if I have chronic depression or what.

I wish I had never heard of this Starshit franchise. It’s burned into my brain and I can’t stop being butthurt over Blizzard’s bad writing.

[Nissa]

It's that or it was just there as "fluff" to give off the illusion of a universe greater than what it is (a made-up fantasy/fiction). It's stuff that could/would makes things more interesting, but you don't have really have to delve into it. It's better off firing away in one's own imagination, which I think was possibly the intent with it's inclusion. I'm fine with that honestly.

Some of it definitely was fluff (khaydarins, uraj/khalis), but frankly leaving entire factions to the imagination is nonsense. I mean, stuff like that works for one or two games, but if Blizz wanted a franchise, they should have built themselves a narrative foundation. Creating worlds by nature automatically creates potential storylines.

[Mislagnissa]

Some of it definitely was fluff (khaydarins, uraj/khalis), but frankly leaving entire factions to the imagination is nonsense. I mean, stuff like that works for one or two games, but if Blizz wanted a franchise, they should have built themselves a narrative foundation. Creating worlds by nature automatically creates potential storylines.

Yep.

The manual included short bios for six factions for each race. (Modeled after the Alliance nation and Horde clan bios in WC2 manual.) Did this ever play a role in the games? Nope!

WC2 was about the war between the alliance and the horde. Most of the manual lore didn’t feature in the game, but it did give the impression of a larger universe. This was expanded on in WoW.

WC3, oddly, didn’t include anything like that in its manual. The story in WC3 was also far more character-driven and less war-driven.

The story in SC1 seemingly treated the three-way war as an afterthought, with the main focus being the character drama.

There’s a reforged mod that remakes WC2. It includes unique skins for each of the factions in the manual. There’s no corresponding skins for Mass Recall, because nobody gives a fuck. Everybody who gave a fuck jumped ship years ago.

It’s such a frustrating waste. I don’t know why I care so much. My monomania is interfering with my ability to enjoy other things.

Complaining about it is unproductive. Would you guys like to hear my ideas for rebooting SC or doing an original setting loosely inspired by it? You’re the only people who seem to remotely care what I think

[Turalyon]

Jack Ritschel voiced Sc1 Overmind. Eiding was the voice for the Overmind in Sc2.

I'm not sure if Sc1 was really made with the intent of a franchise in mind. Sure, Blizz was riding on the coattails of Wc2 success but like I said, this was a new IP at the time (that initially tried to copy WC2 aesthetics at first) and any up and coming developer is just one bad game away from being confined to the dustbin of history. All the stuff in the manual was fluff (by which I mean it as a term of fact, not a judgement) to promote investment; to craft an illusion. All good fiction is designed to compell and pull you into what is ostensibly "made-up stuff". I'm okay with it just being fluff and living in my mind. I don't need "continuations" which are nothing more than just blatant cash grabs.

[Mislagnissa]

The problem is exactly that Starcraft was not intended to be a franchise. The sides didn’t get any foundation or ideology, but instead the characters’ personal desires and vendettas carried the story.

The results were utterly predictable. Sequelitis. Retcons. All around bad writing and world building.

I’m disappointed and I need something to make me feel validated.

It’s clear that Starcraft isn’t going to give me the enjoyment I crave. I’ve been searching for years now for some other fandom that could recapture the magic that still draws me to Starcraft in vain. I’m still searching.

At this point, I’m sure that my only recourse is to write the setting I want myself. The problem is that I have so much writer’s block.

I have so much bitterness and doubt.

[Nissa]

Jack Ritschel voiced Sc1 Overmind. Eiding was the voice for the Overmind in Sc2.

I'm not sure if Sc1 was really made with the intent of a franchise in mind. Sure, Blizz was riding on the coattails of Wc2 success but like I said, this was a new IP at the time (that initially tried to copy WC2 aesthetics at first) and any up and coming developer is just one bad game away from being confined to the dustbin of history. All the stuff in the manual was fluff (by which I mean it as a term of fact, not a judgement) to promote investment; to craft an illusion. All good fiction is designed to compell and pull you into what is ostensibly "made-up stuff". I'm okay with it just being fluff and living in my mind. I don't need "continuations" which are nothing more than just blatant cash grabs.

Not really. Story isn't fluff. It's a big draw for why people care about a franchise over time. The fanbase for SC was huge for years after BW. SC2, while apparently solid enough in gameplay, lacked the story to keep people around or bring in new fans. The problem was the lack of thought and trying.

[Turalyon]

The problem is exactly that Starcraft was not intended to be a franchise.

The results were utterly predictable. Sequelitis. Retcons. All around bad writing and world building..

Funny thing is, IPs that are intended to be a franchise from the get-go are just as often to be prone to these things rather than not.

The real problem is that the idea of sequels/prequels/reboots are only and primarily made for profit/money reasons, with creative reasons usually and actually (no matter what a creator says/wants you to believe) being a distant second.



Not really. Story isn't fluff. It's a big draw for why people care about a franchise over time. The fanbase for SC was huge for years after BW. SC2, while apparently solid enough in gameplay, lacked the story to keep people around or bring in new fans. The problem was the lack of thought and trying.

Starcraft is not primarily known for it's story or the vagaries of such (which is collectively "fluff" because it indulges fanwankery - not that I'm averse to such a thing, mind you, it's why I'm here afterall). Only us (few) nerds care about it. Sc1 persisted, mainly in Korea, because it had refined and skillful gameplay at professional levels and had marketing potential (pro-gamers/esports) that Blizz wanted to emulate on their terms. I'm ok with these facts.

Sc2 is doing fine and keeping its fans without extra story content. Case in point, Blizz' focus on the Commanders instead of Mission Packs like Nova Covert Ops tells you a lot about what the fanbase actually wants. They've stopped actively supporting it but it's still here after a decade (yes, it's been that long!) of it's initial release. I don't care for it but I'm also ok with that fact.

[Mislagnissa]

I know franchises are prone to bad writing.

The new She-Ra show is terrible.

The key difference is that people actually criticize She-Ra.

Horde Prime is an even more shallow and poorly written villain than the Overmind. At least the Overmind has goals that, while horrifying, at least make sense. Horde Prime wants to destroy the universe just because.

I’ll be the first to admit that, even with its sophisticated speech, the Overmind was ultimately depicted little differently than most other cartoon villains. “Rargh! We’re the monsters and we’re here to eat everybody!”

And yet Horde Prime has way more popularity. He’s at the center of Harem fanfics for crying out loud!

I’m seriously wondering whether I should do the same for my Overmind expy. Give it a humanoid avatar and netorare the hero’s girlfriend.

“You didn’t even try to save me when Arturo left me to die. How could you do that Tim?”

“But I didn’t have a choice!”

“Like you didn’t have a choice when you stole the Hyperius the day after?”

“That’s different!”

“Fuck you and your excuses Tim. You could have at least died trying to save me.”

“...”

“But that’s in the past now. I’ve got a new boyfriend, and he’s going to eat you.”

I feel so pathetic.

[Mislagnissa]

Has anybody here played Sid Meier’s Alpha Centauri?

The ideologies in that still set standards for today.

I wish that the sides in Starcraft were even a fraction as deep.

One of my deep-seated disappointments with the way Metzen wrote the zerg is that he setup this shtick about them being obsessed with evolution, but then ignored that so that he could make Kerry their main character. To add insult to injury, SC2 added evolution missions that actually fit way better with the Overmind and cerebrates, but are basically glorified powerups as far as Kerry is concerned.

He said he added her because he thought the cerebrates were too boring. Well that was his own damn fault for making them literally faceless masses of nervous tissue. If he thought they were boring, then why not rewrite them to be interesting, to have actual faces and memorable dialogue and so forth, rather than sideline them in favor of a psycho succubus?

Abathur and Dehaka are not well-written characters, but they genuinely hold zerg ideals (albeit hamstrung by the absurd “make zerg good guys to teamup against Amon” plot) and were positively received by fans. The cerebrates should’ve been written to be at least as interesting to fans, while Kerry should’ve never been elevated to their equal.

Kerry is the zerg equivalent of Keli Quintela. She didn’t become a zerg leader figure because she actually displays zerg qualities or genuinely holds to their ideals, Metzen cheated her way ahead for her every step of the way.

[Turalyon]

Has anybody here played Sid Meier’s Alpha Centauri?

The ideologies in that still set standards for today.

I wish that the sides in Starcraft were even a fraction as deep.

Oh yeah, I really dug the different philosophies of each of the faction leaders and how that informed their factional pros and cons (loved those Secret Project cutscenes with a quote spoken from one of the faction leaders!). Did you read the backstory to the game? It has the factional leaders on the colony ship prior to landing on Planet/before the game. It's a pretty lengthy read.

I enjoyed that game on a way different level to Starcraft and to compare the two or say whether one should be more than the other kinda requires you to misrepresent what each was good at doing. Starcraft ain't really about deep musings on human nature and Alpha Centauri ain't really about narrative and plot. They're both compelling but in different ways. I wouldn't want Starcraft to be more like Alpha Centauri nor vice versa. Also, the only factions that are important in Starcraft are the "big three" races with wildly different aesthetics and make-up, whilst in Alpha Centauri, they're all human with their differences being of the mind and how they go about doing things.


One of my deep-seated disappointments with the way Metzen wrote the zerg is that he setup this shtick about them being obsessed with evolution, but then ignored that so that he could make Kerry their main character. To add insult to injury, SC2 added evolution missions that actually fit way better with the Overmind and cerebrates, but are basically glorified powerups as far as Kerry is concerned..

Sure but this is a "Doylist" position. From a Watsonian perspective, it wasn't ignored. The Overmind was seeking to be "top of the food chain" and nothing it did betrayed that. Just because you didn't like what the "determinant" turned out to be, doesn't mean the "determinant" was not sought after and thought to be of benefit (perceived or actual) by the Overmind nor does it undermine the concept of it.

Sc2's story is rather utilitarian (not meaning the philosophical sense) in its approach and application. It rarely encourages one to muse on alternatives other than what it presents at face value, so I'm not surprised at its superficiality. (Looking back on what I wrote, I'm not sure if what I just said is an observational fact or is subjective criticism. Heh).


He said he added her because he thought the cerebrates were too boring. Well that was his own damn fault for making them literally faceless masses of nervous tissue. If he thought they were boring, then why not rewrite them to be interesting, to have actual faces and memorable dialogue and so forth, rather than sideline them in favor of a psycho succubus?

I thought the issue was more about the perceived difficulty of getting the audience to invest in a single-minded, undiplomatic and xenogenocidal alien race. You know, what with us being humans and all about the "feels" and such.

Those who like the Zerg, like them more as a concept and esoteric level than anything else (much like WH40K Tyranid and perhaps, early Necron lore). The Overmind and it's race is supposed to be alien and therefore unrelatable in concept (aside from it's pursuit of so called "perfection"). The Zerg are a hivemind and unified by design and to "dumb" them down by making human-like characters out of them to make them "relatable" is just as much as an uncalled-for character assasination as you deem Kerrigan's introduction and subsequent domination of the Zerg to be. I wouldn't mind if Kerrigan was never included nor that she was either. In Sc1, the Zerg still feel like the Zerg with or without her.


Abathur and Dehaka are not well-written characters, but they genuinely hold zerg ideals (albeit hamstrung by the absurd “make zerg good guys to teamup against Amon” plot) and were positively received by fans. The cerebrates should’ve been written to be at least as interesting to fans, while Kerry should’ve never been elevated to their equal.

Abathur and Dehaka only really work as side characters. They're not really "protagonists" that would be interesting nor deep enough to drive a story through. Dehaka might, but he's kind of stupidly single minded and an aberration in that he's a retcon Zerg (the whole schtick of HotS implying the Zerg are not the Zerg but the Primal Zerg are, still irks me).


She didn’t become a zerg leader figure because she actually displays zerg qualities or genuinely holds to their ideals, Metzen cheated her way ahead for her every step of the way.

That's ok since I consider Kerry to be feral Zerg anyway. In my mental fanon, the Overmind still lives/never died on Aiur and will find it's way back to reclaim it's wayward children in the Koprulu sector haha!

[Mislagnissa]

Tura, the reason I like the zerg is because they tried to make the devouring swarm trope somewhat more interesting to read about by anthropomorphizing them enough to make them vaguely sympathetic and comprehensible without exactly attributing them human psychology.

Warhammer 40,000 does this same thing for several of its races like dark eldar, orks, and daemons. Their psychology is fundamentally inhuman, but you can still see a narrative from their pov and understand it abstractly.

Since Starcraft has a simpler premise then what 40k applies to a dozen races has to be split amongst just three. Unfortunately, SC’s writing has never really done it well. The most they tried was with the Overmind and cerebrates.

Rather than try exploring how the zerg and protoss exhibit fundamentally alien inhuman psychology (including dark templar, because severing their nerves doesn’t make them human), Blizzard opted to... not do that.

It’s impossible to understand how the loss of the khala impacted the protoss because we weren’t shown how it made them different from humans or dark templar, nor how dark templar differed from humans, etc. In fact Blizz seemed to have forgotten that the khala existed prior to the aeon of strife and wasn’t invented by Khas. He rediscovered it and built a social philosophy around it, but we never get any sense of how this differs from the pre-aeon protoss (if at all). It’s never explained how the khala worked during the protoss’ evolution, how it benefited them physically and socially and psychically, the consequences of damage to the connection, how they united the tribes on Aiur the first time, why Amon didn’t take control of it then, how it fractured the first time, whether it was intertribal vs intratribal, how linguistic principles were involved in telepathy/empathy, etc. Was all of this deliberately retconned away or did Blizz just not know their own lore?

It’s not even consistently explained how protoss survived biologically. They evolved as hunters, and that only happens if you’re carnivorous. Then the lore/gameplay explained they rely on psi from pylons. Then a random community manager said they were photosynthetic when asked how they eat without mouths, and he clearly had no idea how photosynthesis worked. Then Christie Golden’s novel tried to explain this contradiction by claiming the protoss evolved as hunters so they could skin their prey for clothing and other accessories... which is so nonsensical that it doesn’t need explaining if you have even the most basic understanding of natural selection and trophic levels.

And I’m rambling again.

[Mislagnissa]

Looking back with hindsight, the Starcraft campaigns are... repetitive.

Ep1: Raynor rebels, gets betrayed
Ep2: Kerry hunts down her enemies
Ep3: Artanis fights extinction
Ep4: Artanis fights extinction
Ep5: Stukov rebels, gets betrayed
Ep6: Kerry hunts down her enemies
WoL: Raynor rebels, gets betrayed
HotS: Kerry hunts down her enemies
LotV: Artanis fights extinction

They’re telling the same story over and over. The terran hero (Raynor, Stukov) rebels against some evil empire (Confederacy, Dominion) and gets betrayed by a perceived ally (Mengsk, Duran, Tychus), Kerry hunts down her personal enemies (Raynor, Tassadar, dark templar, Duke, Fenix, Duran, Mengsk), and Artanis fights extinction by the big bad (Overmind, cerebrates, Amon).

[Turalyon]

Tura, the reason I like the zerg is because they tried to make the devouring swarm trope somewhat more interesting to read about by anthropomorphizing them enough to make them vaguely sympathetic and comprehensible without exactly attributing them human psychology.

That's commendable but to most people, the vagueness of it is enough to make the Zerg unsympathisable and alien enough for them to not notice the difference really. The only aspect of the Zerg that can be anthropomorphised (if you can even call it that) is the Overmind, which is mostly hidden behind a motivation that is largely esoteric and only elucidated somewhat in the manual (eg: that it can feel fear). In the game, the Overmind's anthropomorphism is only ever noticed/realised when one is willing to contextualise it's actions and behaviour (ie: as I have done to explain why and how it lost) otherwise, it just flies over the head of most people. The difference between the Zerg and Tyranid is so minor that it's considered insignificant on a practical (not intellectual though) Doylist level, not to mention that it would still mean nothing for the other races (as in, things will still be the same for the other races whether it was Zerg or Tyranid) on a Watsonian level.


Warhammer 40,000 does this same thing for several of its races like dark eldar, orks, and daemons. Their psychology is fundamentally inhuman, but you can still see a narrative from their pov and understand it abstractly.

I wouldn't necessarily call those races inhuman - they're just a form/aspect of humanity taken to an extreme end. In context to that, the Tyranid are unique and, arguably to some, better off for it because are not immediately relatable, human-like nor do they want/ care if you have such inclinations toward that end regarding them. Even then, the Tyranid motivation isn't really alien but a manifestation of base desire and id - which all animals, including us, have at a base level. So in a way, the Tyranid are actually more easily relatable in a simplistic way than you think; it's just that we find it uncomfortable/don't like to think we can relate to their unsatiable hunger because we consider that a base/sub-human attribute...

Saying that though, the Tyranid may get a lore update in future. We just don't know enough about them... yet. Doesn't stop one from still thinking up stuff about them though. The Necron were originally in a similar state to the Tyranid before they received their lore update. Now, the Necrons are more relatable and sympathisable (more independent and separate from their original and inextricable association with the C'Tan) which was good for some who wanted more from then but was lamentable for a number of those who preferred the Necron being more (as originally depicted) unknown, implacable and alien.

The funny thing about WH40K lore is that it's so malleable and accepting of additive retcons in a good way. Due to the nature of the universe, any new piece of lore can be interpreted as truth or propaganda/false and that past iterations of the lore are not inherently rendered incorrect but still true from a certain point of view (like the original Necron depiction still being potentially or actually true but only for a subset of Necron).


Rather than try exploring how the zerg and protoss exhibit fundamentally alien inhuman psychology (including dark templar, because severing their nerves doesn’t make them human), Blizzard opted to... not do that.

The Protoss are too rooted in human-like qualities to be truly felt as sci-fi alien. In that way, they're more akin to fantasy elves than I like to admit. It's why I prefer the Zerg over them, since their "alien-ness" stems more from them being inhuman in contrast to the "alien-ness" of the Protoss being due to cultural differences/foreign (which is still fundamentally a human aspect at the end of the day).


It’s impossible to understand how the loss of the khala impacted the protoss because we weren’t shown how it made them different from humans or dark templar, nor how dark templar differed from humans, etc. In fact Blizz seemed to have forgotten that the khala existed prior to the aeon of strife and wasn’t invented by Khas. He rediscovered it and built a social philosophy around it, but we never get any sense of how this differs from the pre-aeon protoss (if at all). It’s never explained how the khala worked during the protoss’ evolution, how it benefited them physically and socially and psychically, the consequences of damage to the connection, how they united the tribes on Aiur the first time, why Amon didn’t take control of it then, how it fractured the first time, whether it was intertribal vs intratribal, how linguistic principles were involved in telepathy/empathy, etc. Was all of this deliberately retconned away or did Blizz just not know their own lore?

The less we talk about Sc2, the better methinks. I like to think of the Khala thematically as an allegory to innocence. It was something fundamental to the Protoss at their conception, that was shunned and turned away from later on because they felt they were better than that (typical growing pains...), only to realise what a detriment it was without it, to realising the importance of regaining it... only to then regress by holding too firmly to it, thinking that it will lead to a repeat of the bad things that happened the first time they let go of it.

As practical thing, I've always liked to interpret it (the term for "it" only became known as the Khala later on) solely as a psychic communal link (as initially conceived), which one can choose to be a part of or not, that allowed them to sense the feelings of each and all other Protoss individuals. Then, Sc2 would render it into to a plot device, just like how they rendered the Zerg into a plot device in BW. Eh. :rolleyes:


It’s not even consistently explained how protoss survived biologically. They evolved as hunters, and that only happens if you’re carnivorous. Then the lore/gameplay explained they rely on psi from pylons. Then a random community manager said they were photosynthetic when asked how they eat without mouths, and he clearly had no idea how photosynthesis worked. Then Christie Golden’s novel tried to explain this contradiction by claiming the protoss evolved as hunters so they could skin their prey for clothing and other accessories... which is so nonsensical that it doesn’t need explaining if you have even the most basic understanding of natural selection and trophic levels.

I'm not as keen as I used to be when it comes to defining the hardness of sci-fi of IPs and whether that is a good thing or not overall. Now, I prefer to condense my overthinking of what is ostensibly fiction and therefore unverifiable into how it may be applicable to other things IRL rather than whether it could happen IRL or not. I find that it's more enjoyable and less frustrating to engage with fiction that way.



Looking back with hindsight, the Starcraft campaigns are... repetitive.

BW apes Sc1 structure quite a bit. The first chapter is kinda disparate/separate to set things up, the second chapter is focused on the antagonist gaining supremacy and the third chapter is the mustering of resistance and overcoming of the antagonist (that it's for the moral good in Sc1 and for the moral evil in BW being inconsequential in this context). Sc2 messes this up because the second chapter is superfluous and does nothing to build the antagonist - it's why the third chapter lacks any real sense significance when the "antagonist" is defeated (also disregarding the fact that the first two chapters are more closely linked together and the third chapter feels wholly disconnected).