Umoja and Kel Morian Combine

[Nissa]

So I was thinking about these two factions, and how they kinda got shoved aside in the games and basically ignored. For some reason. So what do we know about these factions? I've got the manual pdf, so I know about the Guild Wars, and that the KMC was basically the biggest, most demi-independent part of the Confederacy. And that Umoja apparently wanted to learn from the Protoss (and this is never a plot point?).

I've always seen the Combine as breaking apart from the Confederacy when Mengsk overthrew the latter, but there doesn't seem to be an in-game confirmation of their activities. Like, at all. There's Fenix calling them greedy in that one mission, but that never made sense to me as (1) who doesn't need resources when the Zerg are on the move? and (2) Fenix is literally attacking people who never did anything to him to help the Zerg.

So my question is, what resources are there that really get into what the KMC and UP have been doing since SC? Any novels or websites? I prefer old canon, but I wouldn't mind knowing any tidbits about SC2 era.

[The_Blade]

"Mengsk" and "Heaven's Devils" would probably contain the most snippets of information on both factions during the time of the confederacy and BW.

I feel like both factions were used as namesakes for new ideas they had instead of exploring the old ones for everything SC2, while the novels follow the world building set by the established universe more.

My conservative view on the KelMorian and Umojan is that they are a feudal and a federation society respectively. The KelMorians' leadership was conformed by the two strongest mercenary companies at a prelude of the Guild Wars. So, they started to annex mining companies to their economy through military aid until the Confederacy complained about the money they were diverting. The Umojans, on the other hand, were a more "righteous" about the division of wealth both on core worlds and the fringe; but they were always limited by their galactic location and military strenght during both the Guild Wars and The First Great War. Some years ago I thought it was mostly due to unequal distribution of resources and labor, but some other stories have changed that.

I believe that "The Expanse", the books by Jacey Bedford and other nonidealistic, or even distopic, sci-fi sources have awaken a more acute sense of the struggles of Terrans in space. At a more modern level of interpretation, I believe that all three mayor factions were heavily corrupt before the guild wars. Keeping military resources at the fringe worlds, were most of the conflict happened, committed towards moving the war forward was hard as hell. Opportunistic agents deviated income and supplies for many different reasons this being selfish or for the well being of others. The constant along this actions was a "fuck the core worlds" footnote or moral justification. Therefore, at the height of the Guild Wars pre-escalation neutral territory could be seen all around the mining colonies despite there being a flag post for any of the factions at every moment. During the narrative of Heaven's Devils this is exactly whats happening. Confederates and Kel'Morians are often switching sides if the profit is good. Coronel Vanderspool, the main antagonist of the series, is the best example of the flip flop political character.

Honestly, there needs to be a little more exploration on space stations, asteroid mining and the life conditions on both military and economic fleets. Then, the Protoss experimentation would also be fantastic.

[Turalyon]

And that Umoja apparently wanted to learn from the Protoss (and this is never a plot point?).

This is a curious fact because it doesn't seemingly gel with the Terran History, where it states that "No Terran presence could account for the disturbing presence of not one, but two strange alien races within their colonies". The history suggests that the Terrans were unaware of either the Zerg or the Protoss until Chau Sara (and yes, I am aware that this is false due to retcons and later lore saying the Terrans actually knew a lot more about the Zerg), so it's curious how the Umojans would think the Protoss would even want a truce when their first major contact was the burning of a Terran colony world.


I've always seen the Combine as breaking apart from the Confederacy when Mengsk overthrew the latter, but there doesn't seem to be an in-game confirmation of their activities. Like, at all..

The KMC are apart from the Confeds but when Mengsk's Dominion came about, I think we're supposed to presume that the KMC must have aligned themselves with the new Dominion (as well as most other disparate Terran factions) as part of providing a unified Terran front against the "alien invaders". The KMC we see in BW is after Mengsk's Dominion has been effectively dismantled by the UED, so they are indeed separate/on their own in that moment.


So my question is, what resources are there that really get into what the KMC and UP have been doing since SC? Any novels or websites? I prefer old canon, but I wouldn't mind knowing any tidbits about SC2 era.

Can't help there unfortunately. Can only rely on my own brain fluff. That being said, I'm curious about the "protectorate" part of the Umojan Protectorate, since it implies autonomy and difference from standard Umoja despite being under their rule. This could mean Umojans and the Umojan Protectorate could be two different things each with their own ideology, culture, people and whatnot. I wonder why the major controlling government of Umoja would rely on (and allow) a sovereign but independent state for their military power and what keeps them from not overtaking and becoming Umoja's governing body. I mean, we're talking about Terrans here afterall...

[Mislagnissa]

Aside from the wiki, there’s no other information on them. Starcraft isn’t the kind of IP interested in things like politics and world building. The KMC and Umoja plots were originally written as opponents of the Confederacy. The manual is full of ideas like that which were never explored. Metzen decided to jettison that interesting plot hook in favor of his Kerry fixation. Now Starcraft is about nothing but Kerry and her immediate orbit.

I’ve given up on that nonsense.

If you’re truly interested in genuine military scifi/political thriller/etc, then you’re better off with a different setting. For example, the Fractured Realms mod for OpenRA is SC-inspired. https://youtube.com/watch?v=QNoPFWkrvng

I’m also working on lore for another SC-inspired OpenRA project. PM me for the discord link if you’re interested in discussing it. I’m available on the SCLegacy discord too.

[ragnarok]

It is a shame they decided to drop the two factions. At least the Umojans are briefly touched upon in the SC2 trilogy. The KMC just disappeared.

[Nissa]

"The Umojan Protectorate
Commander:
Minister Jorgensen
Designation:
Neutral Protectorate
Base of Operations:
Umoja
Militia Color:
Aqua
The people of Umoja have chosen to remain separate and autonomous from the Confederate
worlds. The Umojans consider themselves to be an enlightened people, harboring obvious
contempt for their sister colonies that submit to the near-fascist yoke of the Confederacy. The
Umojans have retained a strong military force known as the Protectorate that keeps other
factions from interfering in Umojan affairs. The Protectorate seeks a truce with the Protoss,
believing that the elder race can teach them the mysteries of the greater meaning of life, the
universe, and everything."

That's from page 49 of the manual. So yeah, maybe it was referring to something after the initial attack by Tassadar by Chau Sara, but now that I think about it, that would only have introduced the Aiur Protoss. I've always wondered how the DT and humans got along, as the DT would not have been associated with Khalai Protoss. Absent of involvement with the DTs, the Umojans would maybe be those snob types who think the Confederacy got what it deserved, and thus maybe hold the Protoss somewhat in awe.

I tried to read Heaven's Devils, but it sucked hard. Raynor had legit no personality and everything that happened was really stilted and stiff. That, and it seemed to focus on the Guild Wars, as far as the KMC was concerned. As for I, Mengsk, somewhat same story. Too bland to read, browsed instead of finished. Possibly there's some good details there, but I'd have to sort through a lot of silliness to get them.

[Turalyon]

So yeah, maybe it was referring to something after the initial attack by Tassadar by Chau Sara, but now that I think about it, that would only have introduced the Aiur Protoss.

I know, which is why it's weird. Why would anyone think that a hitherto unknown technologically advanced alien would/could even want a truce with your species when they first announce their presence by burning one of your colony worlds?

Also, were it not for the Zerg invasion, the Khalai Protoss would never have even made their presence known to the Terrans at all due to their principles of the Dae-Uhl.

It's kinda strange how this description implies the Umojan Protectorate somehow know enough about them to classify them as an "elder race" all from just seeing them torching Chau Sara. It'd be like people still somehow considering the aliens in the film Independence Day are wise, benevolent and can be reasoned with even after seeing them wipe out one of our major cities. :confused:


I've always wondered how the DT and humans got along, as the DT would not have been associated with Khalai Protoss.

I'd reckon the DT would be even more reclusive than the Khalai Protoss - hence all the stealth/in-the-shadows vibe they've got going for them - and wouldn't risk exposing themselves to the Terrans. Especially when considering that the Khalai Protoss are themselves secretly surveying the Terrans as part of their Dae-Uhl.

[Nissa]

Oh, I don't know. I kind of buy it (although it does need in-game explanation) because there are those people out there with weird psychology -- the types who sympathize with terrorists over their own nation, despite the fact that said terrorists are really quite open about their destructive ideas. I could see someone deciding that this is just revenge over the Confederacy and want to be like the Protoss. That, and combined with the fact that they would probably like to steal some Protoss tech means that getting close to the 'Toss is a plausible idea.

[Mislagnissa]

It's kinda strange how this description implies the Umojan Protectorate somehow know enough about them to classify them as an "elder race" all from just seeing them torching Chau Sara. It'd be like people still somehow considering the aliens in the film Independence Day are wise, benevolent and can be reasoned with even after seeing them wipe out one of our major cities. :confused:The Starcraft website circa 1998 had an in-game document showing that the Terran governments were aware of the protoss and intercepted their border patrol transmissions. Here's an archive of the protoss website preview: http://starcraft98.droppages.com/protoss

The novels explain the zerg were present for at least a decade prior to the Battle of Chau Sara, and considering how easily they took over in SC1 it makes zero sense they didn't take over a long time ago.

The lore isn't consistent on what should be key details.

[The_Blade]

I guess that the best retcon had to be the solitude of the Terrans before the Great War conflicts.

I like the concept of the Protoss and Zerg being active on the Kropulu Sector for a "longer" period before the spark of the conflict. The story sucks at managing power levels at several points of the conflict. If planets like Tarsonis and Aiur fell so hard and fast, why should any of the races have a chance at dealing with the Zerg. Likewise the Terran's would have stood little chance against either of the aliens.


I tried to read Heaven's Devils, but it sucked hard. Raynor had legit no personality and everything that happened was really stilted and stiff. That, and it seemed to focus on the Guild Wars, as far as the KMC was concerned. As for I, Mengsk, somewhat same story. Too bland to read, browsed instead of finished. Possibly there's some good details there, but I'd have to sort through a lot of silliness to get them.

Well, most books and manga are not even coherent with one another as the writers were often hired to write the stories with little plot bullet points rather than a full fleshed universe. Queen of Blades reads like bad fan fiction on top of unit descriptions. Ghost and Spectres is just an acid trip on terrazine mildly sprinkled by romance and friendship rather than plot points. Mengsk was the only good book as a story of a main character. Sure it was soapy, but at least the "villian" is explained at a cognitive level.

[Turalyon]

I kind of buy it (although it does need in-game explanation) because there are those people out there with weird psychology -- the types who sympathize with terrorists over their own nation, despite the fact that said terrorists are really quite open about their destructive ideas. I could see someone deciding that this is just revenge over the Confederacy and want to be like the Protoss. That, and combined with the fact that they would probably like to steal some Protoss tech means that getting close to the 'Toss is a plausible idea.

So you think the Umojan Protectorate think these aliens also care about their politics? Not very "enlightened" of them is it? But then again, only the UP see themselves as enlightened, so yeah, I guess we could interpret this as them being crazy. It's definitely an... interesting take on the UP to say the least.



The lore isn't consistent on what should be key details.

Yeah, my reply was from the perspective of knowing the information we have in the manual only (doubly so, cos I've never cottoned on to any other "outside" Sc lore aside from the short stories). Even then, the manual isn't entirely clear and consistent on things as you well know already.



I guess that the best retcon had to be the solitude of the Terrans before the Great War conflicts.

I like the concept of the Protoss and Zerg being active on the Kropulu Sector for a "longer" period before the spark of the conflict. The story sucks at managing power levels at several points of the conflict. If planets like Tarsonis and Aiur fell so hard and fast, why should any of the races have a chance at dealing with the Zerg. Likewise the Terran's would have stood little chance against either of the aliens.

I kinda vacillate on this at times. I've never really considered the Terrans as ever being equal to the Protoss or Zerg and I think that was part of its charm, at least for me at any rate. It's so common in sci-fi - even around back then - for humans to be at the forefront and being awesome if not all the time but always in the ways it counted (like even despite the grimness of 40K, the humans are pretty boss still). Starcraft was one of those rare sci-fis that wasn't afraid to depict humans as being the messy, petty, weak and largely pathetic creatures we are in the scheme of the larger universe at hand. Them being alone makes you sympathise with them more too, I guess.

When Starcraft came out, I never conceived it as a franchise that would go on perpetually. I always like to consider new IPs as potentially being "one-and-done", so even though the game was billed as a three-way tussle, I never really considered it an equal three-way tussle in lore terms. I think the manual and the game sets this up consistent with the feeling that the Terrans aren't really supposed to be there/are in the wrong place in the wrong time and that they're likely to be pretty much fucked no matter what.

[Mislagnissa]

I guess that the best retcon had to be the solitude of the Terrans before the Great War conflicts.

I like the concept of the Protoss and Zerg being active on the Kropulu Sector for a "longer" period before the spark of the conflict. The story sucks at managing power levels at several points of the conflict. If planets like Tarsonis and Aiur fell so hard and fast, why should any of the races have a chance at dealing with the Zerg. Likewise the Terran's would have stood little chance against either of the aliens.

That’s why my reboot suggestions always include better management of power levels.

Contrive circumstances so that the war has the present forces at roughly equal footing. Then see what happens from there in an organic fashion.

The zerg can’t steamroll terrans because 1) they need the populace unspoiled for processing, and 2) they can’t risk alerting the protoss to the true extent of their power, 3) Project Bellwood invented anti-zerg tech that nullifies key zerg advantages and provoked the zerg to attack openly despite other concerns, etc.

The protoss can’t steamroll terrans or zerg because 1) most of the Conclave doesn’t take the zerg seriously except as part of a political maneuver by the conservatives to reclaim power, 2) the Protoss Empire has other concerns elsewhere in the galaxy, 3) the progressives sabotaged the planet glassers because they want to protect the terrans, 4) the protoss honor and arrogance pulls their punches. Etc.



Yeah, my reply was from the perspective of knowing the information we have in the manual only (doubly so, cos I've never cottoned on to any other "outside" Sc lore aside from the short stories). Even then, the manual isn't entirely clear and consistent on things as you well know already.

The lore was never clearly defined by the time the game came out. It still isn’t clearly defined.


I sympathize with your other criticism and think you make fair points.

I have a few other suggestions for fixing the power level imbalance, but I’m saving those for my original universe. SC has too much baggage attached for us to discuss it without bias.

[sandwich_bird]

I think it can be argued that, in small scale skirmishes (as depicted during gameplay), the power levels are comparable or at the very least, I don't have any problem buying it as such. On the other hand, at a larger scale, technically speaking, this is easily Protoss>Terran>Zerg. I've touched on this before but, at this scale, you start talking about WMDs and both the Protoss and Terrans have some really OP crap. When you can destroy planets and such, the zergs have very little chance. Even their greatest advantage, reproducing quickly and swarming, isn't much of a threat when both the Terrans and Protoss have the ability to make robots. I guess they could give Covid-19 to everyone :p (why is there no real bio weapons btw? hello?! no "real" zerg virus? really?!)

That's one of the big problem I have with the Starcraft story. There's a lot of "well I know you can do X so why don't you do it?" and you have to use a lot of head canon to answer those. It's written like Harry Potter really. Characters(or factions) can do anything but the author doesn't explore what any of it really means as part of the universe. Instead, the author push the narrative that he wants without bothering with the larger implications of the things he previously introduced. It's not necessarily bad, I like Harry Potter lol, but you do offer a different experience when you write this way. A less serious one and I'll admit that I do a lot of eye rolling when they then try to do a 360 and make it look serious. Like, if they kill off a character and try to make a long dramatic moment, there's less emotional impact because you're just like "well you could have just done xyz and we wouldn't be there, this is dumb. I'm not primed to have those kind of feelings, my suspension of disbelief has left years ago!". Dramatic moments like that aren't really a SC1 story thing though(thankfully), but Blizzard does that stuff A LOT otherwise (looking at WoW >.>).

Anyways, I think it would have been cool actually if the story fully explored macro strategies that the 3 races would have naturally employed. It would not affect the gameplay because there are still reasons to fight at a smaller scale so that wouldn't be a problem. In fact, it could have given a pretty nice flair to the mission design.

[Mislagnissa]

I think it can be argued that, in small scale skirmishes (as depicted during gameplay), the power levels are comparable or at the very least, I don't have any problem buying it as such. On the other hand, at a larger scale, technically speaking, this is easily Protoss>Terran>Zerg. I've touched on this before but, at this scale, you start talking about WMDs and both the Protoss and Terrans have some really OP crap. When you can destroy planets and such, the zergs have very little chance. Even their greatest advantage, reproducing quickly and swarming, isn't much of a threat when both the Terrans and Protoss have the ability to make robots. I guess they could give Covid-19 to everyone :p (why is there no real bio weapons btw? hello?! no "real" zerg virus? really?!)

That's one of the big problem I have with the Starcraft story. There's a lot of "well I know you can do X so why don't you do it?" and you have to use a lot of head canon to answer those. It's written like Harry Potter really. Characters(or factions) can do anything but the author doesn't explore what any of it really means as part of the universe. Instead, the author push the narrative that he wants without bothering with the larger implications of the things he previously introduced. It's not necessarily bad, I like Harry Potter lol, but you do offer a different experience when you write this way. A less serious one and I'll admit that I do a lot of eye rolling when they then try to do a 360 and make it look serious. Like, if they kill off a character and try to make a long dramatic moment, there's less emotional impact because you're just like "well you could have just done xyz and we wouldn't be there, this is dumb". Dramatic moments like that aren't really a SC1 story thing though(thankfully), but Blizzard does that stuff A LOT otherwise (looking at WoW >.>).

Anyways, I think it would have been cool actually if the story fully explored macro strategies that the 3 races would have naturally employed. It would not affect the gameplay because there are still reasons to fight at a smaller scale so that wouldn't be a problem. In fact, it could have given a pretty nice flair to the mission design.

The zerg aren’t inferior to the terrans like you claim. They have technobabble!

List of feats in lore: https://forums.sufficientvelocity.com/threads/starcraft-source-thread.4613/

[Nissa]

So you think the Umojan Protectorate think these aliens also care about their politics? Not very "enlightened" of them is it? But then again, only the UP see themselves as enlightened, so yeah, I guess we could interpret this as them being crazy. It's definitely an... interesting take on the UP to say the least.

Well, it's kind of the inverse. Like, the UP would see the Confeds as politically embroiled, self-seeking tyrants, and so it is therefore "enlightened" to destroy the Confederates to find a better way of life. Versus how the KMC would only hate the Confeds specifically for their domination, less so their specific politics. Sort of like, the Confederacy is an unlikable government. The KMC would be the reformers of the government, and the UP would be the revolutionaries, except more focused on going off to do their own thing.



I kinda vacillate on this at times. I've never really considered the Terrans as ever being equal to the Protoss or Zerg and I think that was part of its charm, at least for me at any rate. It's so common in sci-fi - even around back then - for humans to be at the forefront and being awesome if not all the time but always in the ways it counted (like even despite the grimness of 40K, the humans are pretty boss still). Starcraft was one of those rare sci-fis that wasn't afraid to depict humans as being the messy, petty, weak and largely pathetic creatures we are in the scheme of the larger universe at hand. Them being alone makes you sympathise with them more too, I guess.

When Starcraft came out, I never conceived it as a franchise that would go on perpetually. I always like to consider new IPs as potentially being "one-and-done", so even though the game was billed as a three-way tussle, I never really considered it an equal three-way tussle in lore terms. I think the manual and the game sets this up consistent with the feeling that the Terrans aren't really supposed to be there/are in the wrong place in the wrong time and that they're likely to be pretty much fucked no matter what.

I agree with this strongly, and probably this was the idea from the get go. The Terrans are not the strongest, and if it was PvT war then the Protoss would win. This also plays into UP being impressed with the Protoss, as they are so technologically advanced and powerful that many people would want to get on their good graces.

But that aside, it makes the human struggle more interesting if we aren't on top. Not to mention it means that we have to make peace with the Protoss, because we can't beat them, except by luck. I've always seen the story as ending with a negotiated settlement somehow, because it's the most logical for all parties concerned (except Zerg, naturally). This is of course the problem for game writers, as how are you supposed to have a game of three factions fighting one another when it only makes sense for the P/T to fight the Zerg and not each other? Which is why I feel the best end for SC would have been a second expansion pack for SC vanilla to end all the major plot points, and then SC:G would be a fine first person shooter, where the conflict could be smaller scale and make sense for the type of game it was.

[Turalyon]

That’s why my reboot suggestions always include better management of power levels.

Contrive circumstances so that the war has the present forces at roughly equal footing. Then see what happens from there in an organic fashion.

The zerg can’t steamroll terrans because 1) they need the populace unspoiled for processing, and 2) they can’t risk alerting the protoss to the true extent of their power, 3) Project Bellwood invented anti-zerg tech that nullifies key zerg advantages and provoked the zerg to attack openly despite other concerns, etc.

The protoss can’t steamroll terrans or zerg because 1) most of the Conclave doesn’t take the zerg seriously except as part of a political maneuver by the conservatives to reclaim power, 2) the Protoss Empire has other concerns elsewhere in the galaxy, 3) the progressives sabotaged the planet glassers because they want to protect the terrans, 4) the protoss honor and arrogance pulls their punches. Etc.

It's curious that all these purported contrivances to prevent the steamrolling of Terrans are all about imposing limits on the power of the Zerg and the Protoss rather than addressing the real issue: that the Terrans are just plain weak and few in number. Since you are doing a reboot that is not beholden to the things setup even in the manual, you might as well make the Terrans actually more powerful/larger straight-up than what they were originally. That way, you don't need to rely on artifice so much in general by gimping and making excuses for the Zerg and Protoss in order to justify the continued Terran presence. One example of how you could approach that is to look at how the TEC faction in Sins of the Solar Empire are presented as (yeah, I know Sins isn't really a game about it's lore but whatever) - they're initially weak because they're unprepared for war being traders and all but they're also the largest faction so they can weather the attacks of the other two and are slowly adapting to the situation eventually becoming something like an awakening sleeping giant that could give serious pause to the others. Sure, it does mean you have to sacrifice the Terran "vulnerability" angle in the long-term but it's the only real answer to maintaining the ongoing "equal" three-way tussle you want.



I think it can be argued that, in small scale skirmishes (as depicted during gameplay), the power levels are comparable or at the very least, I don't have any problem buying it as such. On the other hand, at a larger scale, technically speaking, this is easily Protoss>Terran>Zerg. I've touched on this before but, at this scale, you start talking about WMDs and both the Protoss and Terrans have some really OP crap. When you can destroy planets and such, the zergs have very little chance. Even their greatest advantage, reproducing quickly and swarming, isn't much of a threat when both the Terrans and Protoss have the ability to make robots. I guess they could give Covid-19 to everyone :p (why is there no real bio weapons btw? hello?! no "real" zerg virus? really?!)

I'm sure it won't be that hard to conceive of a Zerg-based WMD since one just needs to look at the Defiler skill, Plague. One can imagine making a more deadly and larger version of that and presto. Afterall, one of the Zerg conceits is that they're on par with technology and don't need it (since otherwise you'd think they'd incorporate it and become at least cybernetic organisms already). Also, the Zerg have a brood based on terror tactics which implies they have an understanding of unconventional tactics.



That's one of the big problem I have with the Starcraft story. There's a lot of "well I know you can do X so why don't you do it?" and you have to use a lot of head canon to answer those.

Yeah, but that's a problem of any space opera sci-fi in general though. If you can have teleporters, instant matter generation and FTL technology, you wouldn't really need ground armies to begin with let alone ship battles. Starcraft makes it worse what with the Protoss being capable of magic mind powers and time manipulation...


Like, if they kill off a character and try to make a long dramatic moment, there's less emotional impact because you're just like "well you could have just done xyz and we wouldn't be there, this is dumb. I'm not primed to have those kind of feelings, my suspension of disbelief has left years ago!". Dramatic moments like that aren't really a SC1 story thing though(thankfully), but Blizzard does that stuff A LOT otherwise (looking at WoW >.>).

This is exactly how I feel about Sc2's big character deaths, especially Zeratul (might as well chuck in D3's Cain death, too, while we're on a roll). Those death's impact are largely dependent on the nostalgia the character evokes but since Z was nothing like previous the Z in SC1/BW, there was a huge disconnect... for me at least.




the UP would be the revolutionaries, except more focused on going off to do their own thing.

Well, they already had that kind of thing in the Sons of Korhal...


This also plays into UP being impressed with the Protoss, as they are so technologically advanced and powerful that many people would want to get on their good graces.

Yeah, but if we're from the position that the first contact with the Protoss was with them dealing death on Chau Sara unannounced (rather than just saying hello instead for example), there is no way in heck the UP would ever think they have benevolent tendencies.


Not to mention it means that we have to make peace with the Protoss, because we can't beat them, except by luck.

I dunno about this. I don't think the Terrans "have" to make peace with the Protoss. I like the prospect of the Terrans generally just being forevermore belligerent due to and in response to the Protoss' burning of Chau Sara, since it's a very human flaw to hold grudges/see opposition everywhere and to rail against it (a pertinent line from Duke: "I'm going to have to assume that was a hostile response" just sprang into mind as I wrote this). That's not to say that there are some human faction that do want peace with the Protoss (like the UP) but given how the Terrans are depicted and our general history (both in real life and the the fictional version), Terrans being the ones to maintain antagonistic relations in general feels like a more honest depiction.

[sandwich_bird]

The zerg aren’t inferior to the terrans like you claim. They have technobabble!

List of feats in lore: https://forums.sufficientvelocity.co...e-thread.4613/


I'm sure it won't be that hard to conceive of a Zerg-based WMD since one just needs to look at the Defiler skill, Plague. One can imagine making a more deadly and larger version of that and presto. Afterall, one of the Zerg conceits is that they're on par with technology and don't need it (since otherwise you'd think they'd incorporate it and become at least cybernetic organisms already). Also, the Zerg have a brood based on terror tactics which implies they have an understanding of unconventional tactics.

I mean, yeah I guess the 3 power levels are pretty much infinity vs infinity vs infinity :p I was placing Zerg last mostly because, contrary to the other 2, they don't have a weapon that can annihilate everything in an insane aoe area. Planet destroying stuff. They don't even chug asteroids at their enemies like in Starship Troopers. The plague or equivalent are indeed their biggest weapons but the destruction of a planet cracker or an apocalypse missile volley is an entire other level.


Yeah, but that's a problem of any space opera sci-fi in general though. If you can have teleporters, instant matter generation and FTL technology, you wouldn't really need ground armies to begin with let alone ship battles. Starcraft makes it worse what with the Protoss being capable of magic mind powers and time manipulation...

I watched the Expense not too long ago and I thought their depiction was fair. I don't know if you know anything about the show or books(which I didn't read), but even though everyone can destroy everyone else, they all have decent reasons to fight the way they do. Mind you, there's other MAJOR problems with the show's story but otherwise the universe is fairly believable.


This is exactly how I feel about Sc2's big character deaths, especially Zeratul (might as well chuck in D3's Cain death, too, while we're on a roll). Those death's impact are largely dependent on the nostalgia the character evokes but since Z was nothing like previous the Z in SC1/BW, there was a huge disconnect... for me at least.

Not just you! It felt pretty dumb overall.

[Turalyon]

I mean, yeah I guess the 3 power levels are pretty much infinity vs infinity vs infinity :p I was placing Zerg last mostly because, contrary to the other 2, they don't have a weapon that can annihilate everything in an insane aoe area. Planet destroying stuff. They don't even chug asteroids at their enemies like in Starship Troopers. The plague or equivalent are indeed their biggest weapons but the destruction of a planet cracker or an apocalypse missile volley is an entire other level.

Don't forget the stuff that goes into Scourge and Infested Terrans. Whatever is in them can do immense damage, so I'm sure the Zerg can upsize that to be an effective WMD. Also, since the Overmind could create wormholes to move the entire Zerg Swarm so I can imagine it potentially creating wormholes to redirect asteroids if it wanted to. Just because we didn't see it, doesn't mean it couldn't...



I watched the Expense not too long ago and I thought their depiction was fair. I don't know if you know anything about the show or books(which I didn't read), but even though everyone can destroy everyone else, they all have decent reasons to fight the way they do. Mind you, there's other MAJOR problems with the show's story but otherwise the universe is fairly believable.

I've been meaning to watch it but keep getting sidetracked and not wanting to get into a series that may end up being cancelled/incomplete (which was a high probability for this show up until recently).

My faith in TV sci-fi has waned a little bit lately given Altered Carbon Season 2 and Star Trek: Picard weren't very good. I'm kinda hoping Westworld Season 3 (will start that soon) doesn't suck.

[The_Blade]

I kinda vacillate on this at times. I've never really considered the Terrans as ever being equal to the Protoss or Zerg and I think that was part of its charm, at least for me at any rate. It's so common in sci-fi - even around back then - for humans to be at the forefront and being awesome if not all the time but always in the ways it counted (like even despite the grimness of 40K, the humans are pretty boss still). Starcraft was one of those rare sci-fis that wasn't afraid to depict humans as being the messy, petty, weak and largely pathetic creatures we are in the scheme of the larger universe at hand. Them being alone makes you sympathise with them more too, I guess.

When Starcraft came out, I never conceived it as a franchise that would go on perpetually. I always like to consider new IPs as potentially being "one-and-done", so even though the game was billed as a three-way tussle, I never really considered it an equal three-way tussle in lore terms. I think the manual and the game sets this up consistent with the feeling that the Terrans aren't really supposed to be there/are in the wrong place in the wrong time and that they're likely to be pretty much fucked no matter what.

Moreover, the Zerg are not the evolutionary threat at the same height as any of the other hive civilizations in sci-fi. Hell, that's a worse burden at a storytelling level than writing a big brain sentient being. Only the Halo series did a decent job narrating that overshoot of a concept. The fact that the Zerg "decolonize" a planet after the hive mind leaves is far a better narrative concept for an organic space faring civilization. At a core level StarCraft is a very well stablished three-way turf, as a concept. The execution has been crap for the majority of the cannon content.


But that aside, it makes the human struggle more interesting if we aren't on top. Not to mention it means that we have to make peace with the Protoss, because we can't beat them, except by luck. I've always seen the story as ending with a negotiated settlement somehow, because it's the most logical for all parties concerned (except Zerg, naturally). This is of course the problem for game writers, as how are you supposed to have a game of three factions fighting one another when it only makes sense for the P/T to fight the Zerg and not each other? Which is why I feel the best end for SC would have been a second expansion pack for SC vanilla to end all the major plot points, and then SC:G would be a fine first person shooter, where the conflict could be smaller scale and make sense for the type of game it was.

Instead we got a very ironic Brood War. Episode 1 and 3 were on point on what you've said, and are the anchor points of why Misla is so aberrant towards the story. Instead of having the Terran and Protoss factions align against a common enemy we have a division within the Zerg force, ilmao. The Dominion was a unified front, but they get sabotaged by the UED for no better reason than to exmachina a Zerg Overmind. Later, the dominion is demoted to mustache twirling villain, while it always had the potential of establishing a morality duel for the player.


That's one of the big problem I have with the Starcraft story. There's a lot of "well I know you can do X so why don't you do it?" and you have to use a lot of head canon to answer those. It's written like Harry Potter really. Characters(or factions) can do anything but the author doesn't explore what any of it really means as part of the universe. Instead, the author push the narrative that he wants without bothering with the larger implications of the things he previously introduced. It's not necessarily bad, I like Harry Potter lol, but you do offer a different experience when you write this way. A less serious one and I'll admit that I do a lot of eye rolling when they then try to do a 360 and make it look serious. Like, if they kill off a character and try to make a long dramatic moment, there's less emotional impact because you're just like "well you could have just done xyz and we wouldn't be there, this is dumb. I'm not primed to have those kind of feelings, my suspension of disbelief has left years ago!". Dramatic moments like that aren't really a SC1 story thing though(thankfully), but Blizzard does that stuff A LOT otherwise (looking at WoW >.>).

Anyways, I think it would have been cool actually if the story fully explored macro strategies that the 3 races would have naturally employed. It would not affect the gameplay because there are still reasons to fight at a smaller scale so that wouldn't be a problem. In fact, it could have given a pretty nice flair to the mission design.

100% agree. We've rebuilt much of the universe several times to explain all the mombo jombo.

SCBW suffered due to the lack of technology, but I believe it's heavily implied that the Zerg can infiltrate any space station or planet with either small numbers or just a cloud of billions of invaders. SC2's story then suffered due to the excess of technology, but with clear engine limits. I want my star battles with a layout similar to a hybrid between Sins of the Solar Empire and Planetary Annihilation. I will not accept anything less out of SC3. I want ground battles, ocean/ice/fire worlds, orbit battles with hybrid combat between surface and orbit, system battles, asteroid mining, etc. If the whole campaign can exist on a persistent galactic conflict map with ever-moving forces and skirmishes loading independent maps, we will have reached the height of my expectations.


I watched the Expense not too long ago and I thought their depiction was fair. I don't know if you know anything about the show or books(which I didn't read), but even though everyone can destroy everyone else, they all have decent reasons to fight the way they do. Mind you, there's other MAJOR problems with the show's story but otherwise the universe is fairly believable.

The story is not perfect, and it suffers from some form of godlike protagonists. However, I'm certain my suspense of disbelief is healthy because the core ideas that run the show's conflict are all based on a very solid universe they've created. The whole reality of the show stems from the main theme which is the fragility of human beings in space. There's a strict coherence in any technological concept that's designed to help the humans live in space. The space explored in the series is also tiny compared to other space operas, so I think it's not a good example to trump the problems of scale introduced by any of the tech Tura mentioned. The real question to burn down any space opera is, "What if I strap a nuke and a teleporter together and repeat this process thousands of times?"; which to an extent was, as a variation, the same question that created so much chaos among the Star Wars fandom after The Last Jedi.

[Mislagnissa]

It's curious that all these purported contrivances to prevent the steamrolling of Terrans are all about imposing limits on the power of the Zerg and the Protoss rather than addressing the real issue: that the Terrans are just plain weak and few in number. Since you are doing a reboot that is not beholden to the things setup even in the manual, you might as well make the Terrans actually more powerful/larger straight-up than what they were originally. That way, you don't need to rely on artifice so much in general by gimping and making excuses for the Zerg and Protoss in order to justify the continued Terran presence. One example of how you could approach that is to look at how the TEC faction in Sins of the Solar Empire are presented as (yeah, I know Sins isn't really a game about it's lore but whatever) - they're initially weak because they're unprepared for war being traders and all but they're also the largest faction so they can weather the attacks of the other two and are slowly adapting to the situation eventually becoming something like an awakening sleeping giant that could give serious pause to the others. Sure, it does mean you have to sacrifice the Terran "vulnerability" angle in the long-term but it's the only real answer to maintaining the ongoing "equal" three-way tussle you want.

"Ongoing" is a relative term. I do expect that the conflict would end at some point. I'm not trying to copy 40k's ten millennia of war. I intend the timeline between the start of the wars and humanity's potential extinction be planned out in advance, rather than being dragged out for indefinite periods of in-universe time. I don't want the wars to last more than a couple decades total before ending.


I mean, yeah I guess the 3 power levels are pretty much infinity vs infinity vs infinity :p I was placing Zerg last mostly because, contrary to the other 2, they don't have a weapon that can annihilate everything in an insane aoe area. Planet destroying stuff. They don't even chug asteroids at their enemies like in Starship Troopers. The plague or equivalent are indeed their biggest weapons but the destruction of a planet cracker or an apocalypse missile volley is an entire other level.The zerg can generate wormholes. It's not difficult to imagine how to use wormholes as weapons (https://farscape.fandom.com/wiki/Wormhole_weapon).


Instead we got a very ironic Brood War. Episode 1 and 3 were on point on what you've said, and are the anchor points of why Misla is so aberrant towards the story. Instead of having the Terran and Protoss factions align against a common enemy we have a division within the Zerg force, ilmao. The Dominion was a unified front, but they get sabotaged by the UED for no better reason than to exmachina a Zerg Overmind. Later, the dominion is demoted to mustache twirling villain, while it always had the potential of establishing a morality duel for the player.
I think you meant antagonistic . I'm antagonistic to the story because of the excessive focus on Raynor, Mengsk, and Kerry to the exclusion of narrative cohesion, world building, the other political actors setup thus far, and any other possible narratives that could be occurring elsewhere in the setting. The Confederacy, Overmind, and Protoss Empire were setup as these big organizations equivalent in importance to the Alliance and Horde in WC and given numerous hints teased about their deeper cultures, then immediately killed off to promote Raynor, Mengsk, and Kerry to unearned and uninteresting positions of power over the entire setting.

I was expecting something like Starship Troopers or The Vang, not a soap opera about bug girl.



This thread is about dissatisfaction that UP and KMC weren't used, right? I feel the same way about the Confederacy, Overmind/cerebrates, and Protoss Empire.

The Confederacy was technically an alliance of many colonies, each with their own cultures and militias. The Protoss Empire was an alliance of many tribes, each with varying beliefs and varying conflict over their policies towards themselves and other species. The Zerg Swarm was composed of countless broods, each with its own specialization and personality.

There was so room to explore them, much less other groups like the pirate militias, the dark tribes, and the "escaped breeders" briefly mentioned in the Fenris brood bio.

[Turalyon]

Moreover, the Zerg are not the evolutionary threat at the same height as any of the other hive civilizations in sci-fi. Hell, that's a worse burden at a storytelling level than writing a big brain sentient being. Only the Halo series did a decent job narrating that overshoot of a concept. The fact that the Zerg "decolonize" a planet after the hive mind leaves is far a better narrative concept for an organic space faring civilization.

Hm, not sure whether you mean these differences with the Zerg are considered limitations or improvements compared to the standard 'horde of alien locusts" trope.


Instead of having the Terran and Protoss factions align against a common enemy we have a division within the Zerg force, ilmao. The Dominion was a unified front, but they get sabotaged by the UED for no better reason than to exmachina a Zerg Overmind. Later, the dominion is demoted to mustache twirling villain, while it always had the potential of establishing a morality duel for the player.

Well, you have to consider that the Zerg were conceivably shattered and divided by the end of Sc1, so there'd be no need to team up. Also, the Dominion could have also easily filled in the role as main antagonist (that the UED ultimately did) after Sc1, if there really had to be an overarching antagonist for a sequel/expansion. Problem with that was that there's this impression that the Terrans were crippled by the end of Sc1 as well (more than 2/3 of their core worlds were laid to waste), so in a way, the UED was kind of a necessary conceit/plot device to put the Terrans in general back on the table of relevancy.


The real question to burn down any space opera is, "What if I strap a nuke and a teleporter together and repeat this process thousands of times?"; which to an extent was, as a variation, the same question that created so much chaos among the Star Wars fandom after The Last Jedi.

Indeed. Teleporters in themselves make for very effective weapons, too, when you think about it (no need to put them back together again, right?).

The sci-fi (which is admittedly light considering other sci-fi universes) in the Dune universe is interesting in that there's distinct workarounds/explanations for why certain things are the way they are. Lack of firearms due to the effectiveness of shields (hence slow dart guns and melee weapon skill being important) and that the only method around them is assured mutual destruction (lasers striking shields create atomic explosions). No space battles are present because the only means of space travel/transport is determined by the Spacing Guild. And so on. (Man, I'm cautiously optimistic about the upcoming film...).



"Ongoing" is a relative term. I do expect that the conflict would end at some point. I'm not trying to copy 40k's ten millennia of war. I intend the timeline between the start of the wars and humanity's potential extinction be planned out in advance, rather than being dragged out for indefinite periods of in-universe time. I don't want the wars to last more than a couple decades total before ending.

Fair enough. I think my point still stands though that the Terrans need to beefier/stronger/hardier from the get-go in order for any sort of "ongoing" thing to take place. It's interesting to note that you do intend to end it with the Terrans ultimate demise, since that would suggest a greater need to make the Terrans stronger up-front initially/ shed the weak and isolated premise they were originally conceived as.


The zerg can generate wormholes. It's not difficult to imagine how to use wormholes as weapons (https://farscape.fandom.com/wiki/Wormhole_weapon).

I love Farscape! This was also on my mind when I mentioned the Overmind's capability of generating wormholes earlier.


This thread is about dissatisfaction that UP and KMC weren't used, right? I feel the same way about the Confederacy, Overmind/cerebrates, and Protoss Empire.

Well, one can still dream, right? That's were all the best fluff is, afterall.

[The_Blade]

Hm, not sure whether you mean these differences with the Zerg are considered limitations or improvements compared to the standard 'horde of alien locusts" trope.

What I was trying to say is that flaws create a better villain or in this case a ravenous swarm of killer aliens. One of the frequent components of the "horde of alien locusts" trope is an unstoppable plague, which is often the reason these creatures are the clear antagonist. So, both? By improving on the limitations of the Zerg as a species and giving them real setbacks you improve their potential when writing plot around them.

[Nissa]

Well, they already had that kind of thing in the Sons of Korhal...

I'm probably not conveying my point well. I don't mean revolutionaries as in SC revolutionaries, more like hippie-types from the 60s who would openly support the Soviet Union despite the fact they know next to nothing about the USSR, they just hate America so much they want to sympathize with anyone who is against America, no matter how bad that antagonist is.


Yeah, but if we're from the position that the first contact with the Protoss was with them dealing death on Chau Sara unannounced (rather than just saying hello instead for example), there is no way in heck the UP would ever think they have benevolent tendencies.

*shrugs* Well, we're never told when exactly the UP develops their opinion of Protoss. It may have been significantly after Chau Sara. Not to mention that Raynor pal-ed up with them, so it's entirely possible and likely that information from Raynor's associates made its way to other humans. Since the Confederacy, Dominion, and possibly the KMC all depend on keeping information away from their citizens, it's more likely Umoja would know more about the Protoss than other worlds.

And, well...think about SC fans. A lot of us like Protoss, despite knowing how destructive they can be. While liking a fictitious race is not the same as liking a real one, the fact is, I think some people would like Protoss simply for being better than us technologically/culturally (opinion on the latter) and desire to clear up the "misunderstanding" between the races. Not that that would necessarily be a large number of people.




I dunno about this. I don't think the Terrans "have" to make peace with the Protoss. I like the prospect of the Terrans generally just being forevermore belligerent due to and in response to the Protoss' burning of Chau Sara, since it's a very human flaw to hold grudges/see opposition everywhere and to rail against it (a pertinent line from Duke: "I'm going to have to assume that was a hostile response" just sprang into mind as I wrote this). That's not to say that there are some human faction that do want peace with the Protoss (like the UP) but given how the Terrans are depicted and our general history (both in real life and the the fictional version), Terrans being the ones to maintain antagonistic relations in general feels like a more honest depiction.

While technically you're somewhat right, alas, the Zerg. That, and given the power difference between the humans and Protoss, we will have to accept peace, even if it's a grudging peace in the end. Similar to how we today don't like China's government, but we don't outright say we want to fight them because a war would be pretty devastating all around. Disliking someone and wanting to fight a war against them is two different things.

[Mislagnissa]

What I was trying to say is that flaws create a better villain or in this case a ravenous swarm of killer aliens. One of the frequent components of the "horde of alien locusts" trope is an unstoppable plague, which is often the reason these creatures are the clear antagonist. So, both? By improving on the limitations of the Zerg as a species and giving them real setbacks you improve their potential when writing plot around them.

The zerg already had that to some degree by adding personalities to the standard borg/tyranid template.

Unhappy Anchovy at spacebattles analyzes them in detail:
https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/which-is-better-zerg-starcraft-vs-tyranids-warhammer-40-000.606859/post-43335190
https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/zerg-vs-tyranids.284036/page-2#post-12981005
https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/tyranids-are-overrated-do-you-agree.384074/#post-21579864
https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/ua-plays-starcraft.243644/page-12#post-9374119

Aside from that, you could posit that the terrans have develop anti-zerg weapons like neurotoxins and psychic warfare.

For example, to recycle a plot point from StarFront, you could have the terrans douse a hive cluster with an engineered toxin that causes the altered zerg to split from the Overmind.

Another example, the Fenris brood bio implies that “escaped breeders” break from the hive mind spontaneously for whatever reason.

Basically, you can pull limitations out of your ass and make it sound plausible with technobabble.

[Mislagnissa]

Fair enough. I think my point still stands though that the Terrans need to beefier/stronger/hardier from the get-go in order for any sort of "ongoing" thing to take place. It's interesting to note that you do intend to end it with the Terrans ultimate demise, since that would suggest a greater need to make the Terrans stronger up-front initially/ shed the weak and isolated premise they were originally conceived as.


The ending is multiple choice. If you play as Race X, then Race X wins. (See Atrox for an example of this.) So there’s basically three timelines depending on which side you prefer, in which that side is favored by the narrative. Although I prefer to write my campaigns as self-contained narratives, so I guess this is largely academic.

And yes, the terrans would be bigger/stronger by virtue of the fact that I don’t need to focus on a lost colony. I can focus on the entire human race across their territory in the milky way.

That doesn’t mean their advantage is due to numerical superiority. I prefer if they had technological advantages to provide a thematic distinction against the subversive swarming tactics of the bugs.

[Turalyon]

I'm probably not conveying my point well. I don't mean revolutionaries as in SC revolutionaries, more like hippie-types from the 60s who would openly support the Soviet Union despite the fact they know next to nothing about the USSR, they just hate America so much they want to sympathize with anyone who is against America, no matter how bad that antagonist is.

The is reminiscent of the Tau aligned human defectors/traitors of the Imperium of Man (the "Gue'vasa) in WH40k, I guess.


*shrugs* Well, we're never told when exactly the UP develops their opinion of Protoss. It may have been significantly after Chau Sara.

I'm kinda of the opinion that the manual was a sort of omniscient view of things before the events of the Sc1 game, but eh.


A lot of us like Protoss, despite knowing how destructive they can be. While liking a fictitious race is not the same as liking a real one, the fact is, I think some people would like Protoss simply for being better than us technologically/culturally (opinion on the latter) and desire to clear up the "misunderstanding" between the races. Not that that would necessarily be a large number of people.

Protoss are my least favourite of the 3 races partly because of this latent and supposed superiority. They're kinda like elves/space elves and all the baggage that usually comes with that trope. I don't hate them/that trope per se, it's more that I like disliking them because of this trait if that makes sense. That and space elves are often limited by the scope of the writer in that they're often depicted as less alien than one would expect and/or reduced down to essentially becoming proxy humans anyway.


While technically you're somewhat right, alas, the Zerg. That, and given the power difference between the humans and Protoss, we will have to accept peace, even if it's a grudging peace in the end.

But the Terrans don't know whether the Protoss would even offer or want peace. It's also not within their power to affect what the Protoss do next. Were it not for Tassadar's late pang of conscience (let's not forget that he still ordered and affected the death of many humans even if he did feel wrong about it and changed his actions later on), the Protoss in general wouldn't have cared enough for the Terrans to consider peace since the Protoss would've thought they're doing the Terrans a favour by putting them out of their misery and the galaxy at large a favour by slowing down the Zerg advance. Even if the truth of the attack on their colonies was revealed to the Terrans, it would still breed animosity between Terrans and Protoss because the core idea of burning of Terran worlds was an intentioned act - not a mistaken or a careless one.

Unlike the determinant plot device as way to instigate TvZ, the intentioned burning of Terran worlds to instigate TvP is not conditional and a more effective in maintaining a protracted feud between the two parties because it can work both ways. The determinant being a weaker plot device since it invites and encourages artifice in order to prolong why Zerg would want to fight the Terrans - like the Zerg not being able to get their determinant since otherwise they'd just ignore them to focus on the Protoss instead.



That doesn’t mean their advantage is due to numerical superiority. I prefer if they had technological advantages to provide a thematic distinction against the subversive swarming tactics of the bugs.

Given that Protoss are even more technologically proficient than the Terrans, how do you stop them from being overpowered without having to resort to internal strife/fighting themselves or just plain gimping them down or pulling out the "oh, we just don't want to use our full power" excuse to equalise them? There's probably more danger here for artifice since the Protoss are supposedly "better" than the Terrans in most ways and are the ultimate focus/goal for the Zerg to overcome.

[Nissa]

But the Terrans don't know whether the Protoss would even offer or want peace. It's also not within their power to affect what the Protoss do next. Were it not for Tassadar's late pang of conscience (let's not forget that he still ordered and affected the death of many humans even if he did feel wrong about it and changed his actions later on), the Protoss in general wouldn't have cared enough for the Terrans to consider peace since the Protoss would've thought they're doing the Terrans a favour by putting them out of their misery and the galaxy at large a favour by slowing down the Zerg advance. Even if the truth of the attack on their colonies was revealed to the Terrans, it would still breed animosity between Terrans and Protoss because the core idea of burning of Terran worlds was an intentioned act - not a mistaken or a careless one.

Unlike the determinant plot device as way to instigate TvZ, the intentioned burning of Terran worlds to instigate TvP is not conditional and a more effective in maintaining a protracted feud between the two parties because it can work both ways. The determinant being a weaker plot device since it invites and encourages artifice in order to prolong why Zerg would want to fight the Terrans - like the Zerg not being able to get their determinant since otherwise they'd just ignore them to focus on the Protoss instead.

Not real sure about this. The 'Toss have culturally protected Terrans prior to Chau Sara, and from the standpoint of the Dae'Uhl would not eliminate humans without motive (ie the Zerg provocation). From a moral standpoint the Aiur Protoss would not eliminate humans. Likewise, DTs have no motive. On top of that, Raynor has bridged a lot of gaps on the Protoss side of things. On top of that, you have the loss of Aiur and accompanying loss of life and the Protoss having to recover from that. The Protoss are not killing machines.

Likewise, the humans are dealing with political upheaval from Mengsk's reign and the fact that his animosity with Kerrigan pretty much directed most of the wrath of the Zerg his way. With KMC mostly on the sidelines, they're looking to survive and prosper without being controlled by the Confederacy/Mengsk. While absolutely human hatred for the Protoss would not instantly go away, reality is what it is, and the destruction of the UED was a pretty good example of what the Zerg are capable of. Mengsk would have it in his head only to go after Kerrigan, and I refuse to believe that a pragmatic man like him would allow being distracted by the Protoss to get in the way, particularly when he worked with the Protoss in the battle of the three fleets. BW was the story of everyone finally figuring out that it's the Zerg who are the main trouble in the Sector. Absent of some human leader rising up to fight the Protoss with those like minded, it's not going to happen.

[Mislagnissa]

Given that Protoss are even more technologically proficient than the Terrans, how do you stop them from being overpowered without having to resort to internal strife/fighting themselves or just plain gimping them down or pulling out the "oh, we just don't want to use our full power" excuse to equalise them? There's probably more danger here for artifice since the Protoss are supposedly "better" than the Terrans in most ways and are the ultimate focus/goal for the Zerg to overcome.

Well, the foundation of their in-game tactics is that they field fewer units than the earthlings but their units are individually superior. Unless I want the lore to be utterly divorced from the gameplay, then I have to reflect that by ascribing them superior technology.

Obviously they'd win in their racial ending by exterminating the bugs and annexing the earthlings as a client state. I can't think of many reasons for why they lose in the other two endings beyond the simple fact that the other two endings require them to lose. We could contrive a combination of internal strife, psychological hangups (e.g. incompetence, insanity, arrogance, apathy, ethics, etc), budget constraints, bureaucratic red tape, having other more advanced threats to worry about offscreen, etc, but that's ultimately a thermian argument.

I think you're being needlessly uncharitable to fiction. Real history is full of events that don't make sense. I don't find it hard to believe that the stars aligned such that the highly advanced aliens have failed to subdue the less advanced humans. In real life, humans don't take existential threats seriously unless they have immediate effects (https://www.theschooloflife.com/thebookoflife/why-humanity-destroyed-itself/), which is why climate change is on course to render the planet uninhabitable (https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2017/07/climate-change-earth-too-hot-for-humans.html). It is entirely reasonable to assume the aliens have their own psychological hangups that prevent them from responding to the most minor of perceived threats with perfect efficiency.

You have to remember that, at least as far as I can parse from the incoherent nonsense that is canon, Tassadar's fleet was a repurposed exploratory fleet rather than a dedicated warfleet, was investigating the border of the empire far away from anywhere important, and the Protoss Empire was already dealing with numerous other diplomatic issues and xenomorphic threats at the same time (that's what you get for claiming an entire eighth of the galaxy and all the many billions of stars therein). It is entirely possible that the fleet just wasn't prepared for a full-scale invasion, their superiors didn't consider the conflict important enough to divert resources from other theaters, and any reinforcements would have taken too long to make a difference in the initial battles (by which time the zerg and terrans could have developed suitable countermeasures, like psychic/electronic warfare, the Umojans allying with dark templar, Ulrezaj enhancing the zerg with protoss science, etc).

My personal favorite explanation is taken from AT-43's Therians: posthumans who casually build Dyson spheres are too busy playing Universim to bother waging war competently against meatbags.

[Turalyon]

Not real sure about this. The 'Toss have culturally protected Terrans prior to Chau Sara, and from the standpoint of the Dae'Uhl would not eliminate humans without motive (ie the Zerg provocation). From a moral standpoint the Aiur Protoss would not eliminate humans..

I never disputed this nor said the Protoss are antagonistic. I dispute the fact that Terrans and Protoss would ever reach amicable grounds. The Protoss don't give a shit about the Terrans and the Terrans will always hold resentment against the Protoss for their attack. In such a scenario, any future TvP encounter would likely have the Terrans be the aggressor in most cases with the Protoss justifying any action against the Terrans as "defending" themselves from hostile lesser beings.


Likewise, the humans are dealing with political upheaval from Mengsk's reign and the fact that his animosity with Kerrigan pretty much directed most of the wrath of the Zerg his way. With KMC mostly on the sidelines, they're looking to survive and prosper without being controlled by the Confederacy/Mengsk. While absolutely human hatred for the Protoss would not instantly go away, reality is what it is, and the destruction of the UED was a pretty good example of what the Zerg are capable of. Mengsk would have it in his head only to go after Kerrigan, and I refuse to believe that a pragmatic man like him would allow being distracted by the Protoss to get in the way, particularly when he worked with the Protoss in the battle of the three fleets. BW was the story of everyone finally figuring out that it's the Zerg who are the main trouble in the Sector. Absent of some human leader rising up to fight the Protoss with those like minded, it's not going to happen.

Please remember that my position is limited to what we know from the manual up to and before the events of Sc1's game story in order to explain why TvP would be justified over the long term. I'm not saying it can't change but even so, the changes would only be at a micro level (individual groups/people like Tass' force and Raynor's crew). There was a realisation that the Zerg were the main enemy and a need to team-up in SC1 what with the last mission having Raynor involved, but you have to keep in mind that Raynor and Tassadar were sort of outliers of the people they represented. The larger institutions of their respective races (ie: Terran Dominion and Khalai Protoss society) would've still harboured distrust of each other.



I think you're being needlessly uncharitable to fiction.

I laughed hard at this. Pot kettle black anyone? All I'm doing is putting it up to scrutiny - similar to what you claim to be doing when "criticising" Sc1.


Real history is full of events that don't make sense. I don't find it hard to believe that the stars aligned such that the highly advanced aliens have failed to subdue the less advanced humans.

And yet the idea of fictional characters being focused on too much or doing significant things doesn't make sense to you either... Besides, the differential between Protoss and Terran power levels are huge, even if we're not counting the possibility that the Protoss actually outnumber the Terrans too by all accounts what with their supposed galactic reach/spread, use of war machines to limit loss of life and having been around far longer. The factions in 40K are more balanced/equal in power levels and there's more of them compared to Sc.


It is entirely reasonable to assume the aliens have their own psychological hangups that prevent them from responding to the most minor of perceived threats with perfect efficiency.

It is also entirely reasonable to assume alien don't have psychological hang-ups because you know, aliens! Fictional "aliens" only have psychological hangups because they're written by humans who want to make things relatable.

[The_Blade]

I laughed hard at this. Pot kettle black anyone?

lol

Anyways, I feel like I can agree with both Tura and Nissa with different reference points of view in mind. I feel like Nissa is going through with a more faction directed approach. Despite of the catastrophe there's a difference in faction identity between the UP and the Sara System. Add to that the possibility of information bias throughout the Koprulu sector or at least information lag. I can totally see the UP trying to hail the Protoss fleets. The DTs were also around, trying to snipe the Zerg cerebrates, there's another possibility of contact there. However, if I understand correctly Tura argues that at a racial level the Protoss have a omnicient perspective of the Terrans and their factions, if they care to study them. Said awareness is what allows them to react quickly upon the Zerg infestations and make the best decision to save the greater amount of Terrans. That being said, I don't the Terrans would ever understand the measured actions of the Protoss and would therefore not forgive such actions. That said, I agree the most with Nissa that at least the UP can eventually make peace with the Protoss forces as they did with the status quo of the Dominion despite their ideology differences.

I thought of a new question too. Would the UP be able to understand the fall of Tarsonis as it happened or as Mengsk narrated it?

[Mislagnissa]

I never disputed this nor said the Protoss are antagonistic. I dispute the fact that Terrans and Protoss would ever reach amicable grounds. The Protoss don't give a shit about the Terrans and the Terrans will always hold resentment against the Protoss for their attack. In such a scenario, any future TvP encounter would likely have the Terrans be the aggressor in most cases with the Protoss justifying any action against the Terrans as "defending" themselves from hostile lesser beings.



Please remember that my position is limited to what we know from the manual up to and before the events of Sc1's game story in order to explain why TvP would be justified over the long term. I'm not saying it can't change but even so, the changes would only be at a micro level (individual groups/people like Tass' force and Raynor's crew). There was a realisation that the Zerg were the main enemy and a need to team-up in SC1 what with the last mission having Raynor involved, but you have to keep in mind that Raynor and Tassadar were sort of outliers of the people they represented. The larger institutions of their respective races (ie: Terran Dominion and Khalai Protoss society) would've still harboured distrust of each other.




I laughed hard at this. Pot kettle black anyone? All I'm doing is putting it up to scrutiny - similar to what you claim to be doing when "criticising" Sc1.



And yet the idea of fictional characters being focused on too much or doing significant things doesn't make sense to you either... Besides, the differential between Protoss and Terran power levels are huge, even if we're not counting the possibility that the Protoss actually outnumber the Terrans too by all accounts what with their supposed galactic reach/spread, use of war machines to limit loss of life and having been around far longer. The factions in 40K are more balanced/equal in power levels and there's more of them compared to Sc.



It is also entirely reasonable to assume alien don't have psychological hang-ups because you know, aliens! Fictional "aliens" only have psychological hangups because they're written by humans who want to make things relatable.

Then damn Starcraft to hell. I'm tired of these pointless circular arguments.

In my original milscifi universe, the protoss-expies are significantly more advanced than the terran-expies but I've contrived various circumstances preventing them from simply incinerating human space.

Does that explanation satisfy you?

[Turalyon]

Anyways, I feel like I can agree with both Tura and Nissa with different reference points of view in mind. I feel like Nissa is going through with a more faction directed approach. Despite of the catastrophe there's a difference in faction identity between the UP and the Sara System. Add to that the possibility of information bias throughout the Koprulu sector or at least information lag. I can totally see the UP trying to hail the Protoss fleets. The DTs were also around, trying to snipe the Zerg cerebrates, there's another possibility of contact there. However, if I understand correctly Tura argues that at a racial level the Protoss have a omnicient perspective of the Terrans and their factions, if they care to study them. Said awareness is what allows them to react quickly upon the Zerg infestations and make the best decision to save the greater amount of Terrans. That being said, I don't the Terrans would ever understand the measured actions of the Protoss and would therefore not forgive such actions. That said, I agree the most with Nissa that at least the UP can eventually make peace with the Protoss forces as they did with the status quo of the Dominion despite their ideology differences.

Sort of. I don't mind if the Terrans make peace with the Protoss, I just questioned the verisimilitude of it actually happening straight away and the internal consistency of it given how the manual is the only context we had when the game was first released (and yes, I am aware that there is lore that retcons the fact that Terrans knew and interacted with Protoss before Chau Sara's burning, which is understandably irrelevent to this particular argument). It got a bit side-tracked but it started off with the manual description of the Umojan Protectorate wanting to petition the Protoss for peace. It seemed somewhat at odds given that the information in the manual (which is set before the events of the game story itself) sets up a clear hostile relationship between Terran and Protoss. Why would any Terran agency (ie: the UP) think the Protoss are peaceful or benevolent when all that they know up to that point was their first direct contact being the burning of Chau Sara?


I thought of a new question too. Would the UP be able to understand the fall of Tarsonis as it happened or as Mengsk narrated it?

What do you mean by "as it happened"? Like as if the Zerg just made a beeline to Tarsonis for no particular reason other than just wanting to? Would this have been any different to how Mengsk would've spun it? Did Mengsk add in a layer to it by saying the Confeds were partially responsible for the Zerg coming to Tarsonis? Whatever the case was, it allowed all the disparate Terrans to become a more unified force for a time.



In my original milscifi universe, the protoss-expies are significantly more advanced than the terran-expies but I've contrived various circumstances preventing them from simply incinerating human space.

I get that but I'm asking why are you having to make contrivances at all when these were the very things you railed at. If you wanted to make them truly equal, one side shouldn't be more advanced in a way to suggest that it's unbalanced. If you have to excuse the vastly more powerful faction from not beating the others from the get-go, is it even meaningful to even focus on the interactions of these three sides in the first place?

WH40K's main factions are each large and powerful and despite despite their varying differences are equal. One exception is the Tau. They're technically piss-weak in terms of size compared to the others and would normally be crushed if any of the major faction focused on them, but given there are so many other larger factions that are legitimate threats to each other, no-one gives a shit about pounding them into dust. And that's ok because WH40K isn't all about the Tau or any one faction being more powerful. Whereas with your setup, you deliberately focus on humans, bugs and highly advanced aliens but the latter is vastly more powerful than the other two. If the "highly advanced aliens" are too busy fighting off other threats to kill the humans and bugs, why are we focusing on the humans and bugs to begin with and not one of the other opponents that the highly advanced aliens are fighting? How is this "better" than what we got?

And please, don't take this as destructive criticism. I'm asking genuinely out of interest and partly to "hold a mirror" to your position given your strong opinions about other things (ie: Sc) being irrevocably and technically "bad".

[Nissa]

I never disputed this nor said the Protoss are antagonistic. I dispute the fact that Terrans and Protoss would ever reach amicable grounds. The Protoss don't give a shit about the Terrans and the Terrans will always hold resentment against the Protoss for their attack. In such a scenario, any future TvP encounter would likely have the Terrans be the aggressor in most cases with the Protoss justifying any action against the Terrans as "defending" themselves from hostile lesser beings.

Probably. But again, read what I actually wrote. I never said that relations would be overall amicable. I'm saying realistically that the two could not have prolonged war against each other, at least in the short term. With the Zerg and internal conflicts on both sides, it's simply logical that they would set this aside for more pressing matters. Although yes, definitely the instigators would be human. Probably a group of people angry that their leaders aren't dealing with the fact that the Protoss' actions were never avenged.

I've been reading a ton of real world politics these days, and well, even a country hates another, that does not mean either side desires war.


Please remember that my position is limited to what we know from the manual up to and before the events of Sc1's game story in order to explain why TvP would be justified over the long term. I'm not saying it can't change but even so, the changes would only be at a micro level (individual groups/people like Tass' force and Raynor's crew). There was a realisation that the Zerg were the main enemy and a need to team-up in SC1 what with the last mission having Raynor involved, but you have to keep in mind that Raynor and Tassadar were sort of outliers of the people they represented. The larger institutions of their respective races (ie: Terran Dominion and Khalai Protoss society) would've still harboured distrust of each other.

Well, my position isn't limited to pre-game information. I'm saying that both the Dominion and the KMC have logical reasons to put aside their misgivings for the time being (ie in a hypothetical second expansion). If you're in doubt about specifically the Umojans forming alliances with Protoss, well, they're the minority of humans in the sector, and I can see real world reasons why someone in that much hatred of the Confederacy would find technologically advanced outsiders appealing. It makes sense to me on a level of hatred of one's own nation, or a powerful nation with international influence. Other than these feelings and estimations, however, I can't really explain why Blizzard thought it was such a good idea to make Umojans that interested in Protoss. They simply never explained it.


I thought of a new question too. Would the UP be able to understand the fall of Tarsonis as it happened or as Mengsk narrated it?

Uh...let's see...obviously they would have seen broadcasts. From the outside looking in, it might look as if both the Protoss and Zerg were after Tarsonis, and the Zerg are just the ones who made it in the end, before the Protoss destroyed the planet. I guess this depends on how much outsiders know of Mengsk's involvement. Probably they wouldn't know that he was defending the Zerg, but I don't think he could have hidden fighting with the Protoss.

[Mislagnissa]

WH40K's main factions are each large and powerful and despite despite their varying differences are equal. One exception is the Tau. They're technically piss-weak in terms of size compared to the others and would normally be crushed if any of the major faction focused on them, but given there are so many other larger factions that are legitimate threats to each other, no-one gives a shit about pounding them into dust. And that's ok because WH40K isn't all about the Tau or any one faction being more powerful. I don't know what you've been reading, but the factions are not equal. The Imperium controls millions of worlds and is easily the largest side. ("Faction" isn't really accurate, since a faction is "a small organized dissenting group within a larger one, especially in politics.") The reason why the Imperium doesn't obliterate all the aliens is due largely to things like the impossibly huge bureaucracy, their lack of a scientific community, and sheer incompetence. And because if they won, then out-of-universe there wouldn't be anymore worthwhile lore.


I get that but I'm asking why are you having to make contrivances at all when these were the very things you railed at. If you wanted to make them truly equal, one side shouldn't be more advanced in a way to suggest that it's unbalanced. If you have to excuse the vastly more powerful faction from not beating the others from the get-go, is it even meaningful to even focus on the interactions of these three sides in the first place?
But I'm not trying to make them equal. I never was. Their current forces are equal, yes, because it's lore for an RTS project. I like writing lore that is consistent with gameplay.

Under the scenario I proposed, the protoss-expies would inevitably win unless the bugs have time to get the determinant and properly R&D it. That's the entire reason why I settled on a fixed timeline. Either the bugs eat humanity and then destroy the protoss-expies, or they don't. In the later case, humanity either brokers a peace with the protoss-expies or is benevolently enslaved.

No, exploring the interactions isn't meaningful. No more than The Diary of Anne Frank is meaningful, at any rate.


Whereas with your setup, you deliberately focus on humans, bugs and highly advanced aliens but the latter is vastly more powerful than the other two. If the "highly advanced aliens" are too busy fighting off other threats to kill the humans and bugs, why are we focusing on the humans and bugs to begin with and not one of the other opponents that the highly advanced aliens are fighting? How is this "better" than what we got?
Firstly, I'm pretty sure that's exactly what we got in SC, at least if we're reading the manual which states pretty much that exact thing. I'm not writing anything better, except insofar as I want to address other perceived flaws in Blizzard's writing.

Secondly, I can ask you the same question. Why focus on the human/bug conflict and not one of the bazillion others going on? The simple answer is that I don't want to because that tangent doesn't interest me.


And please, don't take this as destructive criticism. I'm asking genuinely out of interest and partly to "hold a mirror" to your position given your strong opinions about other things (ie: Sc) being irrevocably and technically "bad".

I don't recall criticizing SC for depicting the protoss as too advanced. I criticized SC for depicting power levels inconsistently, treating its setting like an Etch A Sketch, and writing Sues.

My problem is, by contrast, contriving answers to your well-reasoned questions. Unlike Blizzard, I actually care about consistency. I have to give the protoss-expies superior tech in the lore because, in the RTS project I'm part of, their design involves fielding a small number of powerful units compared to the other sides in the game (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FactionCalculus). Otherwise the lore would be utterly disconnected from the gameplay. Furthermore, making them perfectly equal is just plain boring to me.

I'm first setting constraints out-of-universe and then trying to justify them in-universe with convincing reasons. You don't seem to buy into that premise in the first place. In the end, these things happen because I'm the author and I can write what I want. The reason why I criticize SC has less to do with the actual events depicted in-universe and more to do with Blizzard's disregard for quality storytelling and their disrespect for their audience's intelligence.

The scenario I desire is one in which the bugs are trying to assimilate humanity as the determinant in their war against the space elves. Other scenarios are possible (e.g. the plots of any three-sided RTS like Atrox, StarFront, Dark Planet, Rise of Legends, Universe at War, Dune, Command & Conquer, etc), and I won't discount exploring them eventually, but I wanted to explore that particular one because I find it an interesting avenue of exploration (read: I'm still butthurt that Metzen botched it). None of explanations I provide convince you it's worth making in the first place.

What explanation would you personally find convincing?

[Mislagnissa]

I’m reading the Vang series by Christopher Rowley. It was a direct inspiration for Halo and probably plenty other scifi.

Anyway, in the first book Starhammer, it’s basically the same plot as the determinant with a few tweaks. Humanity has already been conquered by advanced aliens, so somebody is looking for the Starhammer (a superweapon that causes stars to go nova) to defeat the aliens and emancipate humanity.

I can easily add Starhammers as macguffins to my story as a convenient way to explain why humanity “wins” the conflict. Some archaeologists find a Starhammer and extort the aliens into backing off.

Would that work?

Not to invalidate my previous question, though. If you have any other suggestions, then I’d like to read them nonetheless.

[Turalyon]

I'm saying realistically that the two could not have prolonged war against each other, at least in the short term.

Well, my position isn't limited to pre-game information.

I don't disagree with your conjecture here but it doesn't actually address my initial argument, which was about the short term from the get-go and having limited information at hand. To refresh: I started off pointing how it is somewhat odd that the UP would think the Protoss benevolent when first contact with the Protoss involved what looked like a genocidal act given that all the information we had at the time was only in the manual.



From the outside looking in, it might look as if both the Protoss and Zerg were after Tarsonis, and the Zerg are just the ones who made it in the end, before the Protoss destroyed the planet.

The Protoss didn't burn Tarsonis. It was the point at which Tassadar decided against using that action. One can only imagine what would've happened had Tassadar just continued burning the planet like he did before...




I don't know what you've been reading, but the factions are not equal.

I meant it in terms of relative power. The Ork and Tyranid outnumber the Imperium of Man whilst the Eldar do not but that is not the only metric as to which we can compare how equal they are. You don't have that when the "highly advanced alien" you propose is greater in number (I assume your keeping the vast galactic empire part that the SC manual hinted that the Protoss supposedly had), has been around far longer and technologically superior on many levels of magnitude compared to the few colonies of the "humans". In terms of relative strength, the "humans" are sort of equivalent to WH40k's T'au whereas your "highly advanced aliens" are equivalent to the Imperium of Man, with the further difference that your "humans" don't have superior technology over the "highly advanced aliens" whereas the T'au do compared to the Imperium of Man. In a direct match-up, the "humans" would be toast.


But I'm not trying to make them equal. I never was. Their current forces are equal, yes, because it's lore for an RTS project.

But they have to be equal "enough" in order to justify a prolonged three-way conflict... something that you felt Sc squandered/was lacking in, right?


Under the scenario I proposed, the protoss-expies would inevitably win unless the bugs have time to get the determinant and properly R&D it. That's the entire reason why I settled on a fixed timeline. Either the bugs eat humanity and then destroy the protoss-expies, or they don't. In the later case, humanity either brokers a peace with the protoss-expies or is benevolently enslaved.

Ok, cool. More questions: What do you conceive as a total victory for the humans in this setup? Is it even realistically possible without it reeking of contrivance? If Terrans can win via this contrivance, how would this be better than what we got with Sc (which you claim is to be so riddle with contrivance that it's irrevocably bad)? EDIT: I missed your next post before replying to this...


Firstly, I'm pretty sure that's exactly what we got in SC, at least if we're reading the manual which states pretty much that exact thing. I'm not writing anything better, except insofar as I want to address other perceived flaws in Blizzard's writing.

Secondly, I can ask you the same question. Why focus on the human/bug conflict and not one of the bazillion others going on? The simple answer is that I don't want to because that tangent doesn't interest me.

Oh ok, it's just that you've been going on about how the in-universe/Watsonian verisimilitude in the Sc we got being inconsistent or lacking in that department. I was just trying to apply that perspective here on your project.


I have to give the protoss-expies superior tech in the lore because, in the RTS project I'm part of, their design involves fielding a small number of powerful units compared to the other sides in the game (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FactionCalculus). Otherwise the lore would be utterly disconnected from the gameplay. Furthermore, making them perfectly equal is just plain boring to me.

Well, I'm only asking about the lore side of things anyway. And when I said equal, I didn't mean they had to be balanced gameplay wise or essentially carbon copies of each other, just that there had to be something there to maintain/justify a protracted war that was longer than that depicted in the Sc we got. I know you've always thought that the setup in Sc suggested a prolonged three-way war but I'm trying to put forth a counter perspective that it never really did suggest a prolonged war (in part by citing the relatively large difference in power levels of the three sides as the reason why) and for you to consider that and perhaps offer a rebuttal to my counter in turn.


I'm first setting constraints out-of-universe and then trying to justify them in-universe with convincing reasons. You don't seem to buy into that premise in the first place.

It's not that I don't buy it, not that you'd care if I did or not really! I'm actually fine with what you're doing. I'm just trying to hold you to the same standard that you held Sc to (which you found wanting) but without the vitriol. Nothing more. Just consider my questions as me being curious rather than with a malicious intent if that helps.



Anyway, in the first book Starhammer, it’s basically the same plot as the determinant with a few tweaks. Humanity has already been conquered by advanced aliens, so somebody is looking for the Starhammer (a superweapon that causes stars to go nova) to defeat the aliens and emancipate humanity.

I can easily add Starhammers as macguffins to my story as a convenient way to explain why humanity “wins” the conflict. Some archaeologists find a Starhammer and extort the aliens into backing off.

Would that work?

You would be forced to rely on contrivance to make the humans "win" when they're technically weaker than the other sides, which is something I thought you may have had an aversion, too but eh, whatever. Were we not limited to making it a gameplay sort of thing we're a traditional win is expected, we could look to other avenues/alternatives to what would constitute a win for the humans. That could end up being allying with the "highly advanced aliens" or somehow manipulating things such that the "highly advanced alien" and "bugs" destroy each other leaving the "humans" as winners by default.

[Mislagnissa]

It's not that I don't buy it, not that you'd care if I did or not really! I'm actually fine with what you're doing. I'm just trying to hold you to the same standard that you held Sc to (which you found wanting) but without the vitriol. Nothing more. Just consider my questions as me being curious rather than with a malicious intent if that helps.
I’m sorry. I’m so exasperated with SC that I lash out at the innocent. That’s on me.

I’m trying to write military scifi. I selected the determinant scenario as my constraint because I find it more interesting than the three sides being equal and attacking one another indiscriminately as in every other RTS plot.

I appreciate having you around to point out the flaws. My brain is currently having trouble finding them.

So we’ve listed “office politics”, “pulling their punches”, and “stolen super weapons,” as reasons why the elves don’t win before the story even starts. With varying degrees of believability. Can we think of more reasons?

[Nissa]

I don't disagree with your conjecture here but it doesn't actually address my initial argument, which was about the short term from the get-go and having limited information at hand. To refresh: I started off pointing how it is somewhat odd that the UP would think the Protoss benevolent when first contact with the Protoss involved what looked like a genocidal act given that all the information we had at the time was only in the manual.

Ah, well, I guess I kinda went astray there. But really, there's no reason to think that the UP's beliefs in the manual started that way in the game. Sometimes manuals just give off information that is pertinent for the story, and obviously the UP couldn't have an opinion on the Protoss before they knew about them. I mean, we can argue about it if we want to, but it all comes down to the fact that Blizz never clarified that point.



The Protoss didn't burn Tarsonis. It was the point at which Tassadar decided against using that action. One can only imagine what would've happened had Tassadar just continued burning the planet like he did before...

Actually, there were a couple of planets that Tassdar burned after allowing humans to leave. They talk about it in the text between missions. I was pretty sure that Tarsonis was one of those planets, but I could be mixing it up with another.





Nobody else has any speculation or thoughts on the KMC/UP? Any opinions? Remember any fan theories from back in the day?

[Mislagnissa]

Nobody else has any speculation or thoughts on the KMC/UP? Any opinions? Remember any fan theories from back in the day?

It’s difficult to care about this franchise when Blizzard screwed up the lore so thoroughly.

I’d probably care more if Mengsk and Kerry were aborted from time.

[Turalyon]

Actually, there were a couple of planets that Tassdar burned after allowing humans to leave. They talk about it in the text between missions. I was pretty sure that Tarsonis was one of those planets, but I could be mixing it up with another.

Really? I think the game story suggests that Tassadar's force was pretty much devastated after the incident on Tarsonis. Mission 2 of the Zerg campaign Egression mentions "remnants of the Protoss fleet" in the briefing and the text between the end of this mission and the start of the next mention them being "beaten and scattered". It kinda also explains why Tass becomes stuck on Char and needs help later on.

Also, even if Tass still had enough ships to continue burning Terran worlds, him going about doing that after the debacle at Tarsonis wouldn't be consistent with his supposed change of heart about burning worlds/his action of attempting to fight the Zerg on Tarsonis

[Mislagnissa]

Really? I think the game story suggests that Tassadar's force was pretty much devastated after the incident on Tarsonis. Mission 2 of the Zerg campaign Egression mentions "remnants of the Protoss fleet" in the briefing and the text between the end of this mission and the start of the next mention them being "beaten and scattered". It kinda also explains why Tass becomes stuck on Char and needs help later on.

Also, even if Tass still had enough ships to continue burning Terran worlds, him going about doing that after the debacle at Tarsonis wouldn't be consistent with his supposed change of heart about burning worlds/his action of attempting to fight the Zerg on Tarsonis

There’s no explanation of how the protoss got defeated. I really despise the decision to make the campaigns sequential rather than concurrent.

[Turalyon]

^ They got defeated by Zerg. Doesn't really need more explanation beyond that.

[Nissa]

Honestly, Tura, I'm not sure that that's the case. As to the level of destruction, anyway. I'm not convinced a human faction, particularly one like the Sons of Korhal with limited resources, could really destroy too terribly much of Tass' forces. I took the mission to be that the SoK were protecting a specific group of Zerg, that then happened to be more powerful than they realized. Thus, their smaller forces could stop Tass from doing...whatever he was doing on Tarsonis.

[Turalyon]

^ The SoK only delayed the Protoss enough with their sacrificial play for the Zerg to maintain/build-up and launch on offensive then the rest of them scarpered off. Tassadar had already committed to fighting the Zerg "hand-to-hand" instead of burning worlds at that point and stayed that course (which is kinda darkly ironic considering that his finally doing a "good" thing due to his conscience actually proved to be ultimately the wrong choice!). Looks like he lost to the Zerg...

[The_Blade]

Here the Protoss forces were also not the main target of the Zerg, as the Psi emitters were forcing most of the swarm into either the Tarsonis planetary defenses or the planet itself. There is a sliver of arrogance in Tassadar's personality, as well. Not so as much as the conclave, but he was also ingrained on his superiority of force vs the Zerg, perhaps believing for sure that world glassing was an overkill tactic. He was not even aware of the Cerebrates' immortality at this point.

Back on Umoja and KMC:
I guess there's not much to be said about what the factions were in SC. My main opinion is that there needs to be a new theorycrafting around these factions. It's even a shame that pirate factions were also weak as hell in SC2, but could have been an interesting angle for storytelling even within Broodwar. Could have maybe given Duran a better plotline than the infested story.

[Mislagnissa]

Here the Protoss forces were also not the main target of the Zerg, as the Psi emitters were forcing most of the swarm into either the Tarsonis planetary defenses or the planet itself. There is a sliver of arrogance in Tassadar's personality, as well. Not so as much as the conclave, but he was also ingrained on his superiority of force vs the Zerg, perhaps believing for sure that world glassing was an overkill tactic. He was not even aware of the Cerebrates' immortality at this point.

Back on Umoja and KMC:
I guess there's not much to be said about what the factions were in SC. My main opinion is that there needs to be a new theorycrafting around these factions. It's even a shame that pirate factions were also weak as hell in SC2, but could have been an interesting angle for storytelling even within Broodwar. Could have maybe given Duran a better plotline than the infested story.

I don’t see the point. Blizzard has screwed Starcraft so thoroughly that people put SC1 and BW’s lazy wattpad-tier writing on an undeserved pedestal.

Have you guys ever read any real military scifi?

[Turalyon]

Misla, I don't see the point of you replying sometimes. We all know your thoughts on Sc1 by now here, so there's no need to reply if you've got nothing else to add beyond saying essentially the same thing over and over again. Let the peeps have their Sc1 talk if that's what they want. They don't need you to arbitrate for them all the time nor adhere to your interpretation. Chill dude.

[Mislagnissa]

Have you considered writing fanfiction? I’ve written several fanfics already with thousands of words each.

I was planning on writing fics revolving around the KMC and UP. Potentially novel-length.

[Mislagnissa]

Like, the KMC and UP have these interesting plotlines involving their negative relationships with the Confederacy.

The KMC formed as a consortium of corporations to protect its interests from Confederate interference. This kicked off the Guild Wars, which ended with the KMC being annexed and having most of its affiliates stripped. On the upside, apparently some patronage by corrupt Confederate officials has allowed their remnants to operate with immunity to the law. But underneath it all they want revenge and reclamation... which the alien invasion opens an opportunity for.

The UP formed as an alliance of independent colonies in response to the Confederacy’s aggressive imperialism. They secretly fund the Sons of Korhal and probably other rebel groups. They want to make inroads with the protoss in order to learn from their culture and technology. Who knows what could happen now that the sector is thrown into chaos?

There is so much potential for exploration. One could write novels about it.

[The_Blade]

I agree with Misla, profoundly. There's a huge amount of world building that could happen within these three factions alone.

Even the Confederacy is half explained throughout StarCraft. We know that the wealthiest families control it, but what the hell do these families own? There's very little mention of companies or their role, and these should be massive interplanetary companies like the Weyland-Yutai company from Alien. Without this background, there's no reason for the military underlings to stay under the thumb of said families.

The other day I was thinking about Quatum entangled networks and how they could be associated to StarCraft. I was wondering, that perhaps, these would still be rare. These comm stations would be crazy valuable for both military and economic strategies. Also were the Confederacy would enjoy a centralized hub in Tarsonis, KMC and UP would probably have a more independent/decentralized form of communication.

[Mislagnissa]

I agree with Misla, profoundly. There's a huge amount of world building that could happen within these three factions alone. I'm shocked. I thought I was the only person in the universe who thought this. As far as I knew, the Starcraft universe revolved around Raynor, Kerry, and Mengsk, with everyone else being their sycophants and zombie slaves.

I mean, the Starcraft website circa 1998 suggested that the Confederacy was the big human government and the manual only cemented this, but in the actual game they're barely involved and get killed off at the end of the first episode. You wouldn't know anything about the KMC or UP from the games alone.

You could also bring in the UED, I suppose. Maybe they think the Confederacy is too powerful and dispatched a fleet to interrupt the Confederacy's imperialist wars, only for the aliens to show up and mess everything up. I started writing a fanfic where that does happen: Alexei Stukov leads his fleet into the Sara system to liberate it from Confederate control and repel the alien invaders, while the loyalist Magistrate on Mar Sara is hailed by Tassadar who offers an alliance.


Even the Confederacy is half explained throughout StarCraft. We know that the wealthiest families control it, but what the hell do these families own? There's very little mention of companies or their role, and these should be massive interplanetary companies like the Weyland-Yutai company from Alien. Without this background, there's no reason for the military underlings to stay under the thumb of said families. Technically, most of the lore about the Confederacy was introduced in the licensed fiction and comics. (I have no idea why, considering that the Confederacy was otherwise an afterthought in the games. Seems like a huge waste to dedicate any text to the Confederacy lore when they drop like flies in the first episode and never get referenced again.)

The families aren't mentioned in the manual, which doesn't explain the Confederacy's government at all other than to imply that they have a senate and that they're authoritarian imperialists. There's zero indication that the Confederacy is a corporate state like the KMC was supposed to be. The confederate form of government, by definition, is an alliance of multiple member states. We saw that in the game and manual: each of the colonies has their own colonial governments and militias, with the federal government having squadrons.


The other day I was thinking about Quatum entangled networks and how they could be associated to StarCraft. I was wondering, that perhaps, these would still be rare. These comm stations would be crazy valuable for both military and economic strategies. Also were the Confederacy would enjoy a centralized hub in Tarsonis, KMC and UP would probably have a more independent/decentralized form of communication.If we take into account (or not) that the Dominion apparently encompassing dozens or even hundreds of worlds as the plot requires, then there's no possible way that the Confederacy would ever have been centralized in one place or that Mengsk could ever have taken over. As I said above, the Confederacy is a confederation of many colonies with their own governments and killing the senate would not magically convince them to crown an infamous terrorist their emperor.

Think about it using real world analogues. If ISIS blew up Washington D.C., then the USA would not suddenly hand over power to the caliphate.

If we ignore Starcraft's fixation on Kerry for a moment and pretend Starcraft was written as straight military scifi rather than whatever it is supposed to be, then Mengsk's use of zerg terrorism on Tarsonis would not allow him to seize power. The Confederacy is not a sparsely populated third world country that is easily conquered, but a sprawling interstellar empire. Mengsk's coup would throw the Confederacy into chaos as the colonies and armed forces scramble for power.

In any case, the political and plot divergences I suggested in my fanfic ideas (UED vs Confederacy, Mengsk failing to take over, Magistrate teaming up with Tassadar to defend Mar Sara, Kerry not being zerg jesus, etc) are far too extreme for Starcraft and I'm probably better off filing off the serial numbers and writing an original setting. What do you think?

[Mislagnissa]

To continue the discussion of the Confederacy’s government...

Members of the Old Families composed the Confederate Senate, and each family seemed to live on and administer a colony planet. For example, the Mengsk family ruled Korhal.

So the Old Families and Senate all living on Tarsonis City when the aliens attack is an inconsistency that exists only to let Mengsk take over with ease, as a more realistic take on military scifi would preclude him from having any success.

In fact, FTL communications (which we know is standard in SC universe, and their ships have FTL sensors) would allow the Senate to hold all meetings by teleconference. They may even use virtual reality (since terrans live in a cyberpunk future) to hold virtual meetings that can be virtually filmed.

Mengsk’s rise to power is too easy to be realistic. He shouldn’t be able to deal a death blow in the first place, and any coup that does work should only throw the sector into further chaos rather than giving him an easy opening.

Oddly enough, it would make more sense if he pulled a Palpatine and convinced the Old Families into crowning him Evil Emperor. Probably with the secret assistance of the Sith Lord Alarak. Is that worth exploring in a fanfic?

[Mislagnissa]

Is nobody interested?