What if SC1/BW was remade as DLC for SC2?

[Mislagnissa]

No, I don’t mean a faithful translation like Mass Recall. I mean an actual remake that completely rewrites the story for consistency with SC2 (but probably introduces wholly new inconsistencies because Blizzard), structures each campaign into thirty missions (some of which are side missions that are non-linear and have multiple endings), and has the same gimmicky gameplay as the SC2 campaigns.

I know Blizzard has not technically remade any of their games, yet anyway, but WC3R is apparently updating the plot and map structure to modern standards. In any case, it does not hurt to speculate.

I do not expect a remade storyline will be very good, although I do expect that it will be hilariously bad. Here is some speculation on a potential plot structure.

Demo campaign, Enslavers campaigns: either ignored completely or somehow worked into the plot.

Episode I: Yell of the Rebel, Crusade of Liberty or a similarly hackneyed title

I expect that this remake will put the Raynor/Kerry romance front and center.

Mengsk will either be rewritten as some kind of tragic fallen hero, a twisted psychopath who tricked everyone, or changed to the villain from the start. Consistency with SC2? What’s that?

Duke will either be written out, a minor character, or expanded somehow.

Tassadar, Artanis, Aldaris, and Fenix might be thrown in at some point to explain their later alliance with Raynor.

New characters might be introduced, or SC2 characters recycled.

The structure will be completely different from SC1 and similar to SC2. The main plot will involve the Sons of Korhal’s plot to overthrow the Confederacy. Mar Sara will probably play a much bigger role, maybe even not be purified (or at least it’s magical recovery will be explained with a smaller purification).

The plots of Liberty’s Crusade and Speed of Darkness novels will either be retconned away or worked into the plot somehow.

Side missions will involve research, doing odd jobs for rewards, and so forth, as with SC2.

There will be loads of plot holes and other bad writing.

Episode II: Destiny of the Overmind, Path of the Swarm, Queen of Blades or some other hackneyed name

The main characters will be the terrans and protoss. Zerg characters will either be absent except Kerry, Abathur and Overmind, or Blizzard might do something not stupid for once and give depth to the zerg cast.

Amon will be worked into the plot somehow, probably with the cast trying to figure out a way to stop him. The zerg will either be portrayed as nonsensical heroes out to save the galaxy, or evil monsters that want to subvert the infinite cycle for their own ends.

The side missions will be evolution missions in which the zerg assault terran and protoss targets to acquire new evolutions.

The determinant from the original manual will either be retconned/ignored or revived somehow. Terrans might be explicitly said to have purity of form or something.

The zerg will either be too stupid to find Aiur when telescopes and deep space probes exist or have found Aiur already and are twiddling their thumbs in terran space for some silly reason.

The feral zerg might play a bigger role, particularly if they received a distinct skin by this time. The inability to reclaim ferals in SC1 might be explained or ignored entirely.

The dark templar deus ex machina might be unchanged or retconned when Blizzard realizes it is lazy. But I won’t hold my breath.

There might be an actual reason given for Kerry being infested and the other bizarre behavior previously displayed by the zerg.

The Overmind manifesting on Aiur might be explained or not.

Episode III: Fall of Aiur, Twilight Messiah or some similarly hackneyed title

We will get exposition dumps explaining who the hell these aliens are and why we should care

The plot will definitely be rewritten to explain things, but it will probably be bad.

The Conclave with either be blithering idiots or given an actual justification.

There will be some big tale about a twilight messiah or whatever for Tassadar to fulfill.

The terrans will be more important than the protoss. Kerry might be present on Aiur.

Brood War: I give up on devising titles
At this point the plot is blatantly stupid and I cannot imagine how Blizzard would make sense of it.

Feel free to share your thoughts.

[KaiserStratosTygo]

I'd take a hard pass, I really despise SC2's story-line that much.

SC2 should be remade to fit SC1's story rather than the reverse.

[ragnarok]

I'd take a hard pass, I really despise SC2's story-line that much.

SC2 should be remade to fit SC1's story rather than the reverse.

Only because you invested so much into it, Stratos. Try to take it as it is.

[Mislagnissa]

I'd take a hard pass, I really despise SC2's story-line that much.

SC2 should be remade to fit SC1's story rather than the reverse.

I don't like the story of SC1 all that much, either. It feels extremely rushed and squanders its potential, IMO.

I would've preferred something like the Fall of Tarsonis happening at the start, and the campaigns focusing on the invasion of terran space rather than discarding it.

That's why I liked the plot of Insurrection. While certainly questionable, it at least showed the protoss and terrans meeting and allying in their own campaigns. That's way more than SC1 ever did.

We still don't have a proper zerg campaign twenty years on, unless you count Gradius' script for Origins. (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qQseWB2rVS3iJOnfjsUoDnbfOR26AGalZLYnglNKofc/edit)

[KaiserStratosTygo]

Fair enough, I still like Vanilla SC's story, but I would trade my left kidney for a grander scale story that was initially intended. (and no Kerrigan wank BS)

[ragnarok]

Fair enough, I still like Vanilla SC's story, but I would trade my left kidney for a grander scale story that was initially intended. (and no Kerrigan wank BS)

All this requires is a more open mind and a slight turn to fantasy (thus it will require some creative thinking) to turn the BS away, you know

[Mislagnissa]

All this requires is a more open mind and a slight turn to fantasy (thus it will require some creative thinking) to turn the BS away, you know

I’ll humor you. I’m writing a fanfic where xel’naga space magic creates a new protoss galactic empire and clones a bazillion overminds. They fight the UED for domination of the universe.

https://fanfiction.net/s/13321134/1/Starcraft-3-The-Punch-of-Justice

[ragnarok]

I’ll humor you. I’m writing a fanfic where xel’naga space magic creates a new protoss galactic empire and clones a bazillion overminds. They fight the UED for domination of the universe.

https://fanfiction.net/s/13321134/1/Starcraft-3-The-Punch-of-Justice

Given how many times you changed your minds on fics, I'm not going to be convinced you'll stick with this one until I see at least like 10 chapters or something, and I want to hear other people's feedback (right now I'm helping people in Far Cry).

[Mislagnissa]

Given how many times you changed your minds on fics, I'm not going to be convinced you'll stick with this one until I see at least like 10 chapters or something, and I want to hear other people's feedback (right now I'm helping people in Far Cry).

I suppose you are right. I’m way more interested in writing an original universe with the Confederacy and the Union recycled in space fighting space elves and space bugs.

[ragnarok]

Even now I still see no reviews for that fic.

[KaiserStratosTygo]

All this requires is a more open mind and a slight turn to fantasy (thus it will require some creative thinking) to turn the BS away, you know

What..? no that's not at all what I want, less fantasy more sci fi.

The fantasy aspect needs to be downplayed and reserved largely for Psionic powers, sure it would require more creative thinking but frankly any significant change to the story would.

[ragnarok]

Ok, then for curiosity's sake, why do you accept it just fine in the psionic powers category for fantasy?

[Mislagnissa]

What..? no that's not at all what I want, less fantasy more sci fi.

The fantasy aspect needs to be downplayed and reserved largely for Psionic powers, sure it would require more creative thinking but frankly any significant change to the story would.I agree. However, I think what you mean isn't so much less fantasy as more grounding and rationality in the world building. Whether you call them psychic powers, they're still magic and the difference is in the presentation. Even a generic fantasy setting could appear like scifi if you present it as such.

For example, psychic waves can be produced with technology such as psi-emitters and psi-disrupters. In fact certain applications, such as psychic jamming, are only feasible with industrial engineering.

The psychic powers are still subject to Sanderson's laws of magic (a writing technique). Psychic powers need some kind of logic behind their workings or predictable limitations otherwise they risk becoming a deus ex machina. IMO, an easy way to do this is to introduce realistic arms races as an important plot point: whenever one side develops a new weapon, the otherwise develops a countermeasure, ad nauseum.

[ragnarok]

I agree. However, I think what you mean isn't so much less fantasy as more grounding and rationality in the world building. Whether you call them psychic powers, they're still magic and the difference is in the presentation. Even a generic fantasy setting could appear like scifi if you present it as such.

For example, psychic waves can be produced with technology such as psi-emitters and psi-disrupters. In fact certain applications, such as psychic jamming, are only feasible with industrial engineering.

The psychic powers are still subject to Sanderson's laws of magic (a writing technique). Psychic powers need some kind of logic behind their workings or predictable limitations otherwise they risk becoming a deus ex machina. IMO, an easy way to do this is to introduce realistic arms races as an important plot point: whenever one side develops a new weapon, the otherwise develops a countermeasure, ad nauseum.

Tell me something Mislag, have you EVER tolerated even the occasional Deus Ex Machina in the SC universe? Because even back in the SC1 and BW days you can't say it was devoid of that.

[Mislagnissa]

Tell me something Mislag, have you EVER tolerated even the occasional Deus Ex Machina in the SC universe? Because even back in the SC1 and BW days you can't say it was devoid of that.Deus ex machina is a classic example of bad writing.

I said plenty of times that the writing of SC1 and BW wasn't great because Metzen was clearly making it up as he went along. Rebel Yell had the strongest writing (although it still suffered from the psi-emitter being a blatant plot device), but after that the alien campaigns fell apart.

[ragnarok]

At some point you'll write yourself into a corner (however small) where you can't really explain it away. Even you have to have seen sci-fi novels (and I'm not talking the SC ones) get into that situation.

[Mislagnissa]

At some point you'll write yourself into a corner (however small) where you can't really explain it away. Even you have to have seen sci-fi novels (and I'm not talking the SC ones) get into that situation.

That doesn't happen to every writer and when it does it is a result of sloppiness.

Starcraft is low hanging fruit, so you can't use it as a standard.

[ragnarok]

You can argue it that way, but not everything is meant to be explained away via logic. Granted, too much deus ex machina is also bad....

[Mislagnissa]

You can argue it that way, but not everything is meant to be explained away via logic. Granted, too much deus ex machina is also bad....

That sort of attitude will not get you very far in the literary world. The literary world universally agrees that any amount of deus ex machina is bad because it removes all tension from the story and destroys the audience's suspension of disbelief. But I digress.

My original point is that the Starcraft story is shlock and no amount of contrived excuses will change that. Blatant retcons, maybe. Amon is probably the least of the story's problems (the heroes being sociopathic morons is arguably worse), but I'll focus on him in particular here. You keep talking about how the Amon backstory makes sense, but you never provide any explanation. You have never once shown that his backstory can be salvaged. Somebody else has beat you too it.

Lord22 on fanfiction.net has written some adaptations of the Starcraft game campaigns that, among other things, try to reconcile the retcons with more retcons. The reconciliation for the Amon retcon? The Overmind was never under Amon's control, because his attempt to control it failed and it exterminated the xel'naga in self-defense. Amon wanted to replace the xel'naga with his mindless slaves, the hybrids. The Overmind wanted to create a new generation of xel'naga who would be even cooler than the last and would replace the previous infinite cycle with a Mass Effect-esque harvesting cycle.

It is a decent attempt at salvaging the canon plot outline. I still dislike retreads of the canon plot outline because it simply was never very good to begin given the immense possibility of the premise, but I have to give Lord22 credit for the work done so far. Also, his critiques of the canon plot are hilarious to read.

[ragnarok]

I never read from Lord22 on ff.net

As for the whole salvaging, last I checked you just wanted to smash the whole thing and start over from scratch anyway

[Mislagnissa]

I never read from Lord22 on ff.net

As for the whole salvaging, last I checked you just wanted to smash the whole thing and start over from scratch anyway

Yes. Other authors already salvaged the canon plot outline and I still found it uninteresting.

Furthermore, Blizzard is going to keep retconning themselves into oblivion. Just yesterday they introduced the ihan-rii (https://starcraft.fandom.com/wiki/Ihan-rii_(protoss)) as yet another lost protoss tribe.

Mark my words, they will add more in the future. Just like they did for the night elves.

[ragnarok]

I already saw the skins, I don't mind another fanatical protoss tribe.

[Mislagnissa]

I already saw the skins, I don't mind another fanatical protoss tribe.

Their background is the same as the taldarim with a few cosmetic tweaks. They use void instead of khala, worship xel’naga, etc.

The taldarim and ihanrii are ultimately rip-offs of the nerazim. They have no decent justification to exist as distinct groups rather than tribes of nerazim.

It took me five minutes to write the three genuinely distinct cultures. Long story short: nerazim = jedi, taldarim = sith lords and dark eldar, ihanrii = mad scientists.

EDIT: For that matter, the khalai also worship the xel’naga.

[ragnarok]

The Khalai once did until Khas felt they only needed each other. Then only the Shelak tribe did.

For me the Tal'darim are fine to exist as a distinct group, we haven't seen any evidence that substantial amounts of nerazim left Aiur during the Aeon of Strife. Besides it was fine to have a protoss tribe bound by a more brutal code. As for the ihanrii, I want to see if the skins will eventually lead to more lore info on them first.

[Mislagnissa]

The Khalai once did until Khas felt they only needed each other. Then only the Shelak tribe did.

For me the Tal'darim are fine to exist as a distinct group, we haven't seen any evidence that substantial amounts of nerazim left Aiur during the Aeon of Strife. Besides it was fine to have a protoss tribe bound by a more brutal code. As for the ihanrii, I want to see if the skins will eventually lead to more lore info on them first.

The canon isn’t consistent about protoss religion. The protoss have a saying “the gods watch over you.”

Have you calculated the protoss timeline? I did and it turns that a protoss generation is about a century and a half. Raszagal lived a millennium, but many generations passed for the dark templar. Demioch was 169 when he conceived Edullon.

[Visions of Khas]

I'm not terribly fond of these Ihan Rii. They infringe on the Dark Templar's role as void walkers who sometimes utilize Xel'Naga artifacts. But this seems to be Blizzard's MO when conceiving new Protoss and Zerg factions: creatio ex nihilo. Why go through the hassle of having a culturally and politically distinct faction organically stem from an existing polity, when we can just literally pull them out of nothing? To an extent, the Tal'Darim make sense; from the beginning of SC vanilla I always suspected the Xel'Naga took with them some adherents as they ventured forth from Aiur. But having them be Dark Eldar expies is the same level of laziness as the UED's debut in BW-- just using existing units for what should be a technologically-distinct faction, in this case the TDs stole all of their tech.

I continue to fantasize and write about a faction of Tal'Darim, the Naz'Uhlim, who, after defecting to the Daelaam and being weaned off Terrazine, discover their own miniature Khala. The cultural and political implications from such a development could be earth shaking for all protoss factions.

[ragnarok]

The canon isn’t consistent about protoss religion. The protoss have a saying “the gods watch over you.”

Have you calculated the protoss timeline? I did and it turns that a protoss generation is about a century and a half. Raszagal lived a millennium, but many generations passed for the dark templar. Demioch was 169 when he conceived Edullon.

I'll get back into this once I get over the trauma of my family member's passing a few hours ago, Mislag.

[Mislagnissa]

I'll get back into this once I get over the trauma of my family member's passing a few hours ago, Mislag.

I’m so sorry. I’ve lost people too. You are not alone. You are never alone.

[ragnarok]

I’m so sorry. I’ve lost people too. You are not alone. You are never alone.

She was my last grandparent, now I've lost her too.

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/sc2/t/guess-who-i-saw-today/2437

Here Mislag. Read post 23 (or was it 21, somewhere around there). I've told my story in there, it's a long post. You'll see why I chose sympathy towards Kerrigan's character.

[drakolobo]

She was my last grandparent, now I've lost her too.

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/sc2/t/guess-who-i-saw-today/2437

Here Mislag. Read post 23 (or was it 21, somewhere around there). I've told my story in there, it's a long post. You'll see why I chose sympathy towards Kerrigan's character.

I really do not understand how people do not empathize with Kerrgan, her behavior is very human in the situation she is in, people are not perfect, nor do they apply logic all the time or act under standards and less when they do not get emotional support. they justify any fault even if it is a lack of congruence, her section of the story basically shows that she is :an antihero is and her campaing is a revenge story

I'm not terribly fond of these Ihan Rii. They infringe on the Dark Templar's role as void walkers who sometimes utilize Xel'Naga artifacts. But this seems to be Blizzard's MO when conceiving new Protoss and Zerg factions: creatio ex nihilo. Why go through the hassle of having a culturally and politically distinct faction organically stem from an existing polity, when we can just literally pull them out of nothing? To an extent, the Tal'Darim make sense; from the beginning of SC vanilla I always suspected the Xel'Naga took with them some adherents as they ventured forth from Aiur. But having them be Dark Eldar expies is the same level of laziness as the UED's debut in BW-- just using existing units for what should be a technologically-distinct faction, in this case the TDs stole all of their tech.

I continue to fantasize and write about a faction of Tal'Darim, the Naz'Uhlim, who, after defecting to the Daelaam and being weaned off Terrazine, discover their own miniature Khala. The cultural and political implications from such a development could be earth shaking for all protoss factions.

I can agree on that although while we are talking about a universe of fiction and not a monolithic narrative body of a novel, looking to go past to extend the tradition by creating newthings instead of working on the material already built becomes very common with protoss

[ragnarok]

Her hatred was understandable. I know what it's like to be kicked around all the time because I personally experienced it. Put into her situation, I wouldn't have done too much differently in SC1, BW, and WoL.

[Turalyon]

I really do not understand how people do not empathize with Kerrgan, her behavior is very human in the situation she is in, people are not perfect, nor do they apply logic all the time or act under standards and less when they do not get emotional support. they justify any fault even if it is a lack of congruence, her section of the story basically shows that she is :an antihero is and her campaing is a revenge story

I've always viewed Sc1/BW Kerrigan as this (ie: the same core person throughout, post-infestation and post-Overmind death). She's a more interesting character when seen in this light and because SC1/BW is somewhat open to various interpretations. She got her revenge in BW but Sc2 just had to go and redo it again because it was fun the first time. Didn't work as well the second time round though...

[Mislagnissa]

I really do not understand how people do not empathize with Kerrgan, her behavior is very human in the situation she is in, people are not perfect, nor do they apply logic all the time or act under standards and less when they do not get emotional support. they justify any fault even if it is a lack of congruence, her section of the story basically shows that she is :an antihero is and her campaing is a revenge storyI believe it stems from the protagonists in SC2 acting like bipolar sociopaths. People who think critically about the story found them repulsive.



I can agree on that although while we are talking about a universe of fiction and not a monolithic narrative body of a novel, looking to go past to extend the tradition by creating newthings instead of working on the material already built becomes very common with protossI find it extremely frustrating that Blizzard seems incapable of expanding on what they have. I suspect it is due to them simply being ignorant of their own IP, though. The wiki has thousands of articles explaining various canonical concepts.


I've always viewed Sc1/BW Kerrigan as this (ie: the same core person throughout, post-infestation and post-Overmind death). She's a more interesting character when seen in this light and because SC1/BW is somewhat open to various interpretations. She got her revenge in BW but Sc2 just had to go and redo it again because it was fun the first time. Didn't work as well the second time round though...Actually, the writers explicitly stated that her defining personality trait is that she has no identity (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Kerrigan#Personality).


One of the core elements of Kerrigan's personality is that of her manipulation by others, and her lack of identity.

That explains why she never acts consistently between appearances. Every game or book in which she appears depicts her wildly differently.

Also, she's a special snowflake mary sue psychic demigoddess (https://starcraft2.com/en-gb/news/10038735) who literally broke the scale (https://starcraft.fandom.com/wiki/Psi_Index) measuring psychic powers and is the only human psychic to ever speak with the zerg (https://starcraft.fandom.com/wiki/Sarah_Kerrigan#Xenomorph_Research) (except for all the others who did (https://starcraft.fandom.com/wiki/Telepathy#Terran_Telepathy)).

There is a ton to hate about her character due to the sheer bad writing.

[Turalyon]

Actually, the writers explicitly stated that her defining personality trait is that she has no identity (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Kerrigan#Personality).

Eh, I invoke "death of the author". I don't let the author's intent (or lack thereof) get in the way of one's own interpretation if there's room for it. Besides, I'm only limiting my interpretation of Kerrigan based solely on what we get in Sc1 and BW (and no other sources).

[ragnarok]

Eh, I invoke "death of the author". I don't let the author's intent (or lack thereof) get in the way of one's own interpretation if there's room for it. Besides, I'm only limiting my interpretation of Kerrigan based solely on what we get in Sc1 and BW (and no other sources).

I still wish you'd at least consider the SC2 lore on it, Tura

[Mislagnissa]

I still wish you'd at least consider the SC2 lore on it, Tura

Blizzard killed off both Kerry and Amon for good. I would appreciate it if we could all get past that and move on to other things. I for one would like to discuss reboot proposals where they never existed in the first place, allowing their role to taken by the zerg proper.

[ragnarok]

Blizzard killed off both Kerry and Amon for good. I would appreciate it if we could all get past that and move on to other things. I for one would like to discuss reboot proposals where they never existed in the first place, allowing their role to taken by the zerg proper.

No, Mislag. And if you know my history you'd know why I will not fully turn on what Blizzard did to her character.

[Turalyon]

I still wish you'd at least consider the SC2 lore on it, Tura

I would if it didn't reframe Kerrigan as having dissociative identity disorder, reducing everything down to good/bad and rendering her redemption arc meaningless. If all her "evil" was not actually due to the "real" human Kerrigan who was always supposedly innocent, saintly and good, she has nothing to atone for.

Beside the fact that HotS revenge arc is repetitious of her having a revenge arc in BW, it also has less room for viewer interpretation/stronger authorial intent.

[ragnarok]

Yeah I hated the whole revenge part, and then trying to go for redemption at the same time. Blizzard should have picked one, and stuck with it.

[Mislagnissa]

That’s great and all, but I don’t find the constant insistent discussions on Kerry and what her character deserved to be productive. Her story is over and done with. Plenty of fanfiction redeemed or punished her already.

Obsessing over her for twenty years straight is strangling the creative potential of this fandom. There is so much other avenues we could explore.

[ragnarok]

Given the fact that you always considered those fics largely BS anyway.....

[Mislagnissa]

Given the fact that you always considered those fics largely BS anyway.....

Have you read Queen of Blades? I don't know anything about writer Aaron Rosenberg's past or future works, but it is embarrassingly bad and I wouldn't be surprised if he is now ashamed of writing it.

Have you read StarCraft: Evolution? It was written by Timothy Zahn, famous for writing the Thrawn trilogy in the Star Wars universe. Evolution does not flatter his skills as a writer.

Metzen bad narrative choices hamstring any other writer who tries to play with his toys. Rationalizing the plot contrivances does not make them any less artificial.

If I gave the impression that I think the fics are BS... that is mistaken. Hamstringing is not the same. I can enjoy a few sometimes.

I liked the fanfic "Birth of a Queen" by Lord22, which adapted Episode 2. Although that might have more to do with the fact that it liberally mocked the Queen of Blades character. Otherwise the lack of tension due to the predictability of retelling the same two decades old plot stifles most of my potential enjoyment.

The plot of SC1, much less the sequels, relies on massive plot contrivances that don't make sense except as artificial plot contrivances. Events happen because the plot requires it to happen. Characters act to further the plot rather than according to their motivations. It doesn't help that there were clearly a ton of rewrites during development and the manual that came with the game doesn't explain things due to inconsistencies.

But I could ignore the bad plot. What I cannot ignore are all the fanboys treating it like scripture. Any time you question it as less than sensible, you get shunned as an evil heretic who can't see how amazing and super special Kerry is.

It's no surprise that I liked "Birth of a Queen" for eloquently articulating why Queen of Blades was never as awesome as fanboys make her out to be.

This constant obsession with Kerry for the last two decades has gone nowhere. Two decades of fanboy whinging and nothing to show for it besides maybe HunCraft but nobody seems to care about that.

If, on the other hand, the Overmind had been focused on harvesting humans in mass for experimentation...

It's basically the End War, except during the First War period. The hybrids are human/zerg hybrids in this case but it's the same basic idea of galactic conquest behind them.

[ragnarok]

I never read Queen of Blades, I already had the story from SC1, I didn't see the point to fill in the holes via that.

Evolution on the other hand I did read, and I didn't think it was BS.

[KaiserStratosTygo]

I really do not understand how people do not empathize with Kerrgan, her behavior is very human in the situation she is in, people are not perfect, nor do they apply logic all the time or act under standards and less when they do not get emotional support. they justify any fault even if it is a lack of congruence, her section of the story basically shows that she is :an antihero is and her campaing is a revenge story


I can agree on that although while we are talking about a universe of fiction and not a monolithic narrative body of a novel, looking to go past to extend the tradition by creating newthings instead of working on the material already built becomes very common with protoss

Hard to empathize with a character that when given multiple chances to do the right thing or just not get involved, she decides to betray all of her allies, toy with two populations of species (Terrans and Protoss) and commit multiple gencoides to kill one dude.

[ragnarok]

Hard to empathize with a character that when given multiple chances to do the right thing or just not get involved, she decides to betray all of her allies, toy with two populations of species (Terrans and Protoss) and commit multiple gencoides to kill one dude.

I keep telling you stratos, if you've been kicked around your whole life, you'd see almost EVERYONE to be just like that. Trust me, I've lived it, I know what that feels like.

[Mislagnissa]

Hard to empathize with a character that when given multiple chances to do the right thing or just not get involved, she decides to betray all of her allies, toy with two populations of species (Terrans and Protoss) and commit multiple gencoides to kill one dude.


I keep telling you stratos, if you've been kicked around your whole life, you'd see almost EVERYONE to be just like that. Trust me, I've lived it, I know what that feels like.

The situation is contrived from the start because Metzen arbitrarily wrote the zerg as a plot device, arbitrarily gave Kerry control over the zerg, and ignored that any free-willed people existed in the universe outside of the main characters.

If the zerg were a swarm intelligence as they were in earlier drafts of the lore, then the Kerry situation would never have happened.

[ragnarok]

You make it sound like you absolutely need them to be a swarm intelligence

[Mislagnissa]

You make it sound like you absolutely need them to be a swarm intelligence

Metzen destroyed their agency very early on when he decided to rewrite them from a gestalt consciousness managing logistics to an easily subverted master/slave dynamic with plot device powers.

I'm fine with terrans and protoss using tech to enslave zerg. That said, I think they work better if they have their own agency rather than always mindlessly obeying anyone holding the remote.

[ragnarok]

It's why I didn't mind the Cerebrus zerg skins and what the Cerebrus program was doing to the zerg in the aftermath of LotV. Still, it'd be neat to see the zerg have something more than just mindless slaves to kill and assimilate.

[Mislagnissa]

It's why I didn't mind the Cerebrus zerg skins and what the Cerebrus program was doing to the zerg in the aftermath of LotV.

I never said I minded the Cerberus skins, nor the idea of enslavement with technology. Indeed, I think they are appropriate for campaigns set during the first war.


Still, it'd be neat to see the zerg have something more than just mindless slaves to kill and assimilate.

I suspect you and I have very different ideas for what that entails. I think QoB and the brood moms sabotaged the concept of the zerg by turning them into shallow Saturday morning cartoon villains and nonsensical space hippies. I prefer to write the zerg as fundamentally incapable of peace due to their purity of essence. Like the devouring swarm civic in Stellaris.

Even the primal zerg and Abathur don't do much to save the concept since they're just as short-sighted as the brood moms. The Overmind and cerebrates could plan on the scales of millennia, and had more complex and far-reaching motives than "promote a constant state of stagnant pointless conflict with no higher purpose or goal in mind." They were conquerors who sought perfection by consuming the strongest species and over countless millennia specialized their civilization/ecosystem to better pursue that overarching goal.

Again, like the devouring swarm civic in Stellaris.

Also, we already have the mecha zerg for all your mindless slave needs. The zerg swarm deserves better treatment than that.

Which reminds me... I just realized that I could preserve QoB's canon arc without sabotaging the zerg swarm's agency by placing her in charge of mecha zerg instead. Not sure why I would do that considering all the other reservations I have regarding her arc, but it might come in handy during brainstorming.

[ragnarok]

I never said I minded the Cerberus skins, nor the idea of enslavement with technology. Indeed, I think they are appropriate for campaigns set during the first war.


Personally after I first saw the Cerberus zerg skins and how they were controlling the zerg, I immediately wondered if Blizzard took a page out of Dudki's Annihilation campaign for the idea....

[Mislagnissa]

Personally after I first saw the Cerberus zerg skins and how they were controlling the zerg, I immediately wondered if Blizzard took a page out of Dudki's Annihilation campaign for the idea....

Enslaved, lobotomized and cyborg zerg have been around for years in the lore before Annihilation was written.

[ragnarok]

The first two yes, given the UED's part in dissecting the zerg in a lab. Not sure on the 3rd one though....

[Mislagnissa]

The first two yes, given the UED's part in dissecting the zerg in a lab. Not sure on the 3rd one though....

If we're going to think about this reasonably, then there's no compelling reason why Cerberus zerg couldn't have existed during or even prior to the first war.

Heck, I can't think of any reason why we couldn't have a brood war with the Overmind still alive.

According to Q&As and other sources, QoB was apparently equal to or greater than the Overmind, yet there were still brood wars throughout her reign.

According to the SC1 manual, the Overmind's control wasn't absolute. It could only increase the intelligence of queens and overlords so far while keeping them loyal, and then it still required xel'naga knowledge. The Surtur brood is loyal, but prone to causing collateral damage and needing to be keep subdued outside of battle. The Fenris brood sometimes operates in the capacity to hunt down rogue zerg, long before this became a problem in Koprulu.

Uprising novel depicted zerg responding to terran psychics' commands while the Overmind was alive. The classic battle net strategy compendium says the zerg are devoted to the Overmind rather than enslaved. Enslavers depicts a brood being enslaved while the Overmind is alive. Insurrection depicts a brood going berserk while the Overmind lives.

I could go on but I think I've made my point.

[ragnarok]

Hence this is why I plan someday to write a novel to explain the whole zerg control thing with Kerrigan, instead of just the Deus Ex Machina crap reason Blizzard gave.

[Mislagnissa]

Hence this is why I plan someday to write a novel to explain the whole zerg control thing with Kerrigan, instead of just the Deus Ex Machina crap reason Blizzard gave.

Indeed? I had a similar idea for all of questionable plot points in canon starting from SC1 onward. I asked around on the SCLore discord, and they told me to give up.

[ragnarok]

Indeed? I had a similar idea for all of questionable plot points in canon starting from SC1 onward. I asked around on the SCLore discord, and they told me to give up.

Remember though, I didn't dive deeper into the SC universe until after WoL's release, so the majority of the time I use the SC2 lore. Therefore, you have to accept SOME level of fantasy to all this.

[Mislagnissa]

Remember though, I didn't dive deeper into the SC universe until after WoL's release, so the majority of the time I use the SC2 lore. Therefore, you have to accept SOME level of fantasy to all this.

They told me that they know it doesn't make sense and they don't care. They like arguing over trivial minutiae.

[ragnarok]

They told me that they know it doesn't make sense and they don't care. They like arguing over trivial minutiae.

Not to you and some others. I still plan to find some way to tie it together.

[drakolobo]

According to the SC1 manual, the Overmind's control wasn't absolute. It could only increase the intelligence of queens and overlords so far while keeping them loyal, and then it still required xel'naga knowledge. The Surtur brood is loyal, but prone to causing collateral damage and needing to be keep subdued outside of battle. The Fenris brood sometimes operates in the capacity to hunt down rogue zerg, long before this became a problem in Koprulu.

manual does not say that, the queen and overlord are only relays(an overlord even has a hard time concentrating to organize a twenty-something zerg without a cerebrate or kerrigan), commissioned operational details(fine control) such as keeping groups of individuals monitored to keep the swarm healthy, the cerebrate are highly intelligent, and were not able to touch the sOvermind, because it was created to depend , and so the swarms depended absurdly on his cerebrate and became harmful to the other zerg if they were killed, intelligent kerrigan could not rebel and she knew that is for this she was terrified of the maturation of the second overmind. if the tassadar kerrigan sacrifice had not come to anything. Kerrigan alludes to the broodmother queens as a substitute for cerebrate and more inteligents already a danger issues for Kerrigan broodmother was design with limitations so as not to endanger her status, but sufficiently capable of keeping the zerg alive if she dies ,she was always a defective substitute for the swarm mind and would not raise a competition to herself (and suppose that even after its primal version, this remains the same since things like torrasrque to a need nuclear fuel to exist )

The queen of the blades was also created faithful but with a fidelity dependent on the existence of the overmind and that is the trick of jumping the directive of Amon, the overmind created these defects under the pretext of a design outside the box to dominate its enemies

[Mislagnissa]

manual does not say that, the queen and overlord are only relays(an overlord even has a hard time concentrating to organize a twenty-something zerg without a cerebrate or kerrigan), commissioned operational details(fine control) such as keeping groups of individuals monitored to keep the swarm healthy, the cerebrate are highly intelligent, and were not able to touch the sOvermind, because it was created to depend , and so the swarms depended absurdly on his cerebrate and became harmful to the other zerg if they were killed, intelligent kerrigan could not rebel and she knew that is for this she was terrified of the maturation of the second overmind. if the tassadar kerrigan sacrifice had not come to anything. Kerrigan alludes to the broodmother queens as a substitute for cerebrate and more inteligents already a danger issues for Kerrigan broodmother was design with limitations so as not to endanger her status, but sufficiently capable of keeping the zerg alive if she dies ,she was always a defective substitute for the swarm mind and would not raise a competition to herself (and suppose that even after its primal version, this remains the same since things like torrasrque to a need nuclear fuel to exist )

The queen of the blades was also created faithful but with a fidelity dependent on the existence of the overmind and that is the trick of jumping the directive of Amon, the overmind created these defects under the pretext of a design outside the box to dominate its enemies

Uh huh. I just got the impression that Blizzard was making things up as they went along without a care in the world. The SC1 manual's version of events where the Overmind is the big bad evil guy setting everything up is way more interesting (and simpler to understand) in my opinion than the bizarre QoB and Amon plots.

[ragnarok]

It was because Blizzard wanted us to fight a more powerful enemy, though they didn't have to make that a Xel'Naga. They also wanted Kerrigan's redemption, which would have been just fine had HotS's story been more consistent.

[Mislagnissa]

It was because Blizzard wanted us to fight a more powerful enemy, though they didn't have to make that a Xel'Naga. They also wanted Kerrigan's redemption, which would have been just fine had HotS's story been more consistent.Uh huh.

I think Blizzard mishandled everything from the start. The constant need for sequels to introduce new and increasing stakes that overturn the status quo is a problem.

What would have worked better is if Blizzard took an approach similar to 40k. Create a backdrop of interstellar war, and then write anthology stories within that backdrop that don't disrupt the status quo.

Preferably a status quo with the Confederacy, Conclave, and Overmind as the governments as in the SC1 manual, because they have built-in reasons to fight indefinitely. The current SC2 status quo with Dominion, Daelaam, and Overqueen doesn't promote the believable constant conflict that the lore of an RTS deserves.

[ragnarok]

I didn't mind Zagara being overqueen, it gave her a title to set her apart from the other broodmothers. Having said that it's a shame they left Shadow Wars with the situation via Niadra unresolved. Would have been nice to see how Zagara would have handled her.

[Mislagnissa]

I didn't mind Zagara being overqueen, it gave her a title to set her apart from the other broodmothers. Having said that it's a shame they left Shadow Wars with the situation via Niadra unresolved. Would have been nice to see how Zagara would have handled her.

I do not hold my breath. Zagara and Niadra are bland and uninteresting.

[ragnarok]

For Niadra you can say that because we only got 1 mission with her in HotS.

[Mislagnissa]

For Niadra you can say that because we only got 1 mission with her in HotS.

Let me spell it out for you. Cerebrates rule, brood moms drool.

Starcraft lore is a dumpster fire and it always has been since Metzen casually butchered the Confederacy, Conclave and Overmind so that he could wank to Kerry who is based on his druggie ex-girlfriend. It will stay a dumpster fire as long as it is in the hands of Blizzard, who suck at storytelling and always have/will.

The only thing that brings me joy is the knowledge that life extension technology means I will probably still be alive in a century when the copyright on Starcraft expires and I can finally fund and publish the deep serious philosophical version of the story that I always wanted to see but never got because Blizzard be dumb.

[ragnarok]

Not all of us see it that way. And it's still no different than you not willing to listen to anyone's opinions but your own.

[Mislagnissa]

Not all of us see it that way. And it's still no different than you not willing to listen to anyone's opinions but your own.

Would you please write your story that is supposed to salvage the plot? Blizzard is not going to do it for you. I long ago gave up on my attempt at it.

[ragnarok]

Would you please write your story that is supposed to salvage the plot? Blizzard is not going to do it for you. I long ago gave up on my attempt at it.

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/sc2/t/guess-who-i-saw-today/2437/29

Read this thread, Mislag. I need to take care of my real life situation first. As of this moment, that's still at least 18 months away.