What are good reasons for the zerg to not use technology?

[sandwich_bird]

The zerg know about powerful advanced technology ever since they destroyed the Xel Naga but they never integrated any of it in their arsenal. There's only some occurrences of tech usage by the zerg but nothing systematic. Obviously the out of universe reason for this is just to keep the thematic of biological warfare but what would be convincing reasons in-unverse for them not to use technology?

I can see 4 categories of arguments:
1-They can't
2-It's not a better alternative/ no need to
3-They don't want to
4-They didn't have the chance to yet

For the first category, unless the technology in question requires advanced psionic powers, I can't find a convincing reason for them not to. Zerg leadership possess the necessary capacities to reverse engineer most tech and can presumably create any kind of morphology to fit the technology.

For the 2nd category, this is a strong point in many situations and seems to be the preferred answer. With that said, there are specific techs that don't have an alternative in the zerg arsenal. Super nukes and planet crackers for examples. In the same vein, defensive tech against this type of weapons such as "shields"(I don't remember if there were ever such shields but their existence seems likely). I don't see any reason why this wouldn't be needed or any other alternative that the zerg might have that would be considered "better" than it. Another example are warp engines. Even with Kerrigan and the overmind capable of creating warp space tunnels, it's very limiting for the zerg to only have 2 individuals capable of doing it while the enemies have fleets full of ships that can do it on their own. With both of them gone post-sc2, an alternative is needed (unless queens suddenly gain this ability).

For the 3rd category, there's no subjective reasons for the overmind or queens to not want to use technology. They don't really think this way. It is possible though that Kerrigan was opposed to using tech for personal reasons.

For the last category, if we assume that the overmind wasn't careful when he destroyed the Xel Naga, it is possible that no technology was salvageable for him to study. In this case, the only time where he would have been able to study technology would be when he encountered the Terran. The story of SC1 is not long enough to give him time to reverse engineer tech for him to use. It can also be argued that Kerrigan didn't really have the time to use tech in her arsenal during BW. Post-BW though, she would definitely have had the time to get technology but she didn't.

So, to summarize, if I'd have to make an argument as to why the zerg don't use tech in-universe, I'd first say that the only tech they really would want would be planet destroying tech and warp speed tech while everything else would not generally be needed or has better alternatives. The overmind didn't try to acquire this tech because he didn't know about it until he met the Terran and then didn't have the time and resources to get to it during SC1. When Kerrigan took over, she did not try to integrate those technology as she renounced and rejected the "humanoid way of life" of her past self and decided to solve every problem with the basic fundamentals available to the zerg.

Any thoughts?

[Turalyon]

I could probably add another couple more arguments but they're kinda offshoots of what you have there.

On a variation of reason 2, maybe the Zerg just plainly don't have the capacity to understand the value of technology in the way we or other technologically inclined peoples do. It could also be an ideological thing, too, in that they think "why bother trying to do something you can't do by making something to do it for you? It just means that you weren't meant to do it in the first place". They may also think technology or tools are a momentary and fallible crutch compared to something that's assimilated and ingrained into the entirety of the Swarm which can be used innately and reliably at any time.

[ragnarok]

Of your 4 reasons sandwich bird, it's likely they just didn't know how. Even if we use the SC1 lore, remember that the only part the Xel'Naga played when they came to Zerus was helping the zerg parasites survive the planet's harsh environment. From that point on the zerg evolved by themselves. After the Overmind assimilated most of the Xel'Naga, he merely used their intel to see if there's ways to better improve the swarm's evolution and that was all. It was only when Aiur was invaded that he was forced to used their intel to begin his work on the Khaydarin crystals since the infestation process didn't seem to work on the protoss.

If you want to use the SC2 lore, perhaps this was a mentality shared by the primal zerg, and Amon didn't bother changing it. Recall what Dehaka was telling Kerrigan in HotS at Skygeirr: that he didn't need a weapon as he could evolve claws. Basically this is the zerg saying it didn't matter how advanced technology would get, their evolution would always overcome it.

[drakolobo]

for the opinion of the zerg is because they can do everything that technology can do with our biology intersteel travel communications design merits. they understand the technology they adapt their biology to use technology in the cases of vehicle infestation, they know that if they break a ship optimally in the carrier history memorizing the design, they know how to activate the self-destructions system (changeling) , for them the question would be if they have the possibility of genetic modification because they will not improve for themselves, the zerg are the future and the weak ones use tools to correct their intrinsic weakness

[Visions of Khas]

It's probably a matter of interface/compatibility, and availability. The few instances we have of Zerg using terran or protoss technology are by Kerrigan, Infested terrans, Duran and Abathur, all highly intelligent individuals with the dexterity to use them. Even if they had the appropriate limbs, the lesser breeds would need direction by an Alpha to properly make use of them.

I'm sure Kerrigan, Zagara, Abathur et al understand that conventional technology have their advantages, but until they're willing to evolve more intelligent and flexible strains, I don't see the zerg making wide spread use of it.

[ragnarok]

I'm sure Kerrigan, Zagara, Abathur et al understand that conventional technology have their advantages, but until they're willing to evolve more intelligent and flexible strains, I don't see the zerg making wide spread use of it.

In Abathur's case this is without doubt, just look at the Evolution book (given how he made the chitha). It's just that he didn't really care about technology, unless it threatened zerg evolution in some way....

[Robear]

There's also a difference between a Zerg entity using technology (infested terran mindlessly pulling the trigger on the gauss rifle still in its hand), understanding technology (seeking out ammo to reload), or modifying/creating their own technological thing.

In StarCraft Ghost (so, not canon) infested marines used "infested gauss rifles," (https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/starcraft/images/d/dd/Zerg_SC-G_BlizzCon2005.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20080505035043) which dealt toxic damage over time— unlike SC2, where the infested marines are still just shooting normal bullets.

However, this could easily just mean that the whole gun including the ammo was soaking in some poisonous secretion inadvertently, and then when you get shot the wound also gets contaminated. Or even if it was intentionally soaked in some toxic substance, that's still only using organic means to modify technology.

Or, the gauss rifle could really have been infested, in the way an infested command center is, and then either had organisms inside making the regular ammo toxic, or maybe even shooting zerg organisms instead of terran ammo.

I have no conclusion, just an example thing.

[ragnarok]

I didn't know that about infested gauss rifles with the whole toxic thing. Still, there's always ways to "infest" terran tech. Just look at the Night Terrors mission in Nova Covert Ops. We got to see the zerg infesting siege tanks and banshees. Now granted, unlike what Stukov has in Co-op, the ones in NCO didn't have spine crawler tentacles on them, but it proves the zerg can put terran tech to use.

[Mislagnissa]

I am just going to nip this in the bud right now. Rather than asking "why don't zerg use non-living tools and weapons?", ask yourself "why don't terrans/protoss breed themselves as living tools and weapons?"

The answer is the same in both cases. Their psychology and evolution is so different that they simply do not think it make sense to do so. The zerg are intelligent enough to learn how to use automatic doors and hijack security systems and so forth, but they do not build their own. If zerg are adopting terran/protoss tech, it is only because that brood was specifically ordered to reverse-engineer it.

There was a Q&A session (http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/8226555/starcraft-ii-creative-development-qa-part-11-1-7-2013) that addressed this.


Question: If the zerg are biological life-forms, how can they survive traveling across the universe without any air, shields, or armor suits?

Answer: They can adapt to handle those environments. The question of how they can do things without tools is a uniquely human way to look at a problem. When we can't do something, we build a tool to do it for us. A race that can evolve and adapt so rapidly and so well simply doesn't think that way. As an example, there are creatures that thrive on the bottom of the ocean here on Earth, in places where our tools and equipment have only recently allowed us to go.

In other words, zerg do not use terran technology for the exact same reason that terrans/protoss do not use zerg biotechnology. They do not think the same way. The best that terrans/protoss have come up with is enslavement.

[sandwich_bird]

maybe the Zerg just plainly don't have the capacity to understand the value of technology in the way we or other technologically inclined peoples do. It could also be an ideological thing, too, in that they think "why bother trying to do something you can't do by making something to do it for you? It just means that you weren't meant to do it in the first place". They may also think technology or tools are a momentary and fallible crutch compared to something that's assimilated and ingrained into the entirety of the Swarm which can be used innately and reliably at any time.

for the opinion of the zerg is because they can do everything that technology can do

They can adapt to handle those environments. The question of how they can do things without tools is a uniquely human way to look at a problem. When we can't do something, we build a tool to do it for us. A race that can evolve and adapt so rapidly and so well simply doesn't think that way. As an example, there are creatures that thrive on the bottom of the ocean here on Earth, in places where our tools and equipment have only recently allowed us to go.

These all falls under the category 2 I would say but you'd still have to explain how they would approach the problem of an enemy capable of:
-Destroying planets
-making units that "teleport" through space almost instantaneously
-(maybe some other tech that I can't think of right now)

These 2 technologies completely change warfare and are an existential threat to the zerg. Even if the zerg leadership insisted on solving problems through biology, these would be a strong wake up call to approach things differently I'd assume. That is, unless the zerg can replicate the same effect through biology. If the overmind and Kerrigan could create warp space tunnels, I'm guessing that there's "something" biological about it that could be engineered in lesser zergs. And honestly, if they can warp space and shit like that, presumably they can also warp space on a planet offensively and destroy it. Presumably, they could also warp space as a defensive mechanism on an incoming nuke or planet cracker. I'm not sure I like the thought of this at all (zerg mages yay! -.-) but I suppose it does fit with the lore. Some limitations to this power would need to be established though.

[Nissa]

Probably the major problem is that Blizz never really explained much. We don't really know exactly how the Zerg travel through space, or if Kerrigan and the Overmind really are the only ones who can warp. They also didn't explain how the other characters could communicate with Kerrigan during the Zerg missions in BW. Clearly they have some means of doing so, but it's all been left to the imagination. Which is probably for the best.

It could possibly be explained that perhaps the Overmind didn't think technology was necessary, because the best biological creatures would be ones that live without it. Though, on the other hand, if the Zerg did mutate into having arm-guns, they'd be even more of a rip off of the tyrannids than they already are.

[ragnarok]

Probably the major problem is that Blizz never really explained much. We don't really know exactly how the Zerg travel through space, or if Kerrigan and the Overmind really are the only ones who can warp. They also didn't explain how the other characters could communicate with Kerrigan during the Zerg missions in BW. Clearly they have some means of doing so, but it's all been left to the imagination. Which is probably for the best.

It could possibly be explained that perhaps the Overmind didn't think technology was necessary, because the best biological creatures would be ones that live without it. Though, on the other hand, if the Zerg did mutate into having arm-guns, they'd be even more of a rip off of the tyrannids than they already are.

To me, the Overmind only knew about the whole warping concept because he assimilated the Xel'Naga, and then passed this knowledge onto Kerrigan (hence why the Cerebrates weren't pleased about all this).

With regards to other characters' communications with Kerrigan, you mean other zerg? I thought it was said that the Zerg use a form of telepathy, though different from that of the protoss. Strangely enough, Kerrigan was able to understand this even prior to infestation, one of the reasons why the Confederacy used her for zerg experimentation.

[Turalyon]

These all falls under the category 2 I would say but you'd still have to explain how they would approach the problem of an enemy capable of:
-Destroying planets
-making units that "teleport" through space almost instantaneously

Don't be in a position where the enemy can use that ability effectively against you. They don't need to counter them head on/directly since with foreknowledge of this capability they can form strategies around them. The Zerg weren't committed in their forays against the Terrans and was expecting losses since the Overmind was just testing the waters and observing the Protoss' reaction. Also, they were largely hiding away on Char and were only revealed to be there at all because of the process of integrating a psionic into their fold. The Zerg were probably not going to engage the Protoss proper until they felt they had an advantage and the initiative of a crippling first strike - which is what they actually ended up doing. Aiur was a good location to invade on a tactical level not only because there'd be no DT there, but that the Protoss wouldn't likely burn their own homeworld with purification beams neither.

Course this wouldn't explain what would happen if the Zerg were exposed earlier. I'd imagine they would employ stealth or guerilla tactics to get around/avoid those Protoss capabilities, difficult as that may be to fathom, until they feel it advantageous to engage. I like to think the Swarm can employ more tactics, like choosing when and where to fight, than just resorting to overt rushing en masse as it's sole military strategy.


And honestly, if they can warp space and shit like that, presumably they can also warp space on a planet offensively and destroy it.

We've had discussions like this here before. Technology enabling moving at warp speed and teleportation would make conventional ground warfare pointless since once could theoretically use such tech to deposit nukes, redirect a stars energy (ala Farscape), transport enemies into death traps or even just rip apart/disassemble things in a matter of seconds before the other side can react. Only argument from ignorance can justify why it doesn't happen at all (ie: it can't happen because it should've happened and we haven't seen it happen).

[Mislagnissa]

tl;dr The only explanation is the anthropic principle and suspension of disbelief.


These all falls under the category 2 I would say but you'd still have to explain how they would approach the problem of an enemy capable of:
-Destroying planets
-making units that "teleport" through space almost instantaneously
-(maybe some other tech that I can't think of right now)

These 2 technologies completely change warfare and are an existential threat to the zerg. Even if the zerg leadership insisted on solving problems through biology, these would be a strong wake up call to approach things differently I'd assume. That is, unless the zerg can replicate the same effect through biology. If the overmind and Kerrigan could create warp space tunnels, I'm guessing that there's "something" biological about it that could be engineered in lesser zergs. And honestly, if they can warp space and shit like that, presumably they can also warp space on a planet offensively and destroy it. Presumably, they could also warp space as a defensive mechanism on an incoming nuke or planet cracker. I'm not sure I like the thought of this at all (zerg mages yay! -.-) but I suppose it does fit with the lore. Some limitations to this power would need to be established though.

Technically, all three races have all of those capabilities and always have. There is a source thread on spacebattles (https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/starcraft-source-thread.230914/) listing all the crazy feats of the three races. In case you want to keep track because there is a lot.

The problem here, as you already said, is that Blizzard cannot stay consistent or clearly define anything. I doubt they even keep track of all these feats and they constantly make up new stuff and create new solutions to problems that already have solutions (e.g. there are at least four different cures for zerg infestation including Confederacy's nanomachine therapy, Protoss's nanomachine therapy, Hanson's medicinal therapy, and the keystone's deus ex machina).

The zerg have at least three different ways to manipulate gravity including overlord telekinesis, corruptor's antigravity cancer, and overmind's warp travel. All of these are biological in nature and prove just as effective as the technological versions.

There is really no logical reason they cannot replicate dovin basals (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Dovin_basal) from Star Wars. For quick reference, those are biological engines which produce black holes for defense and propulsion. They can also be used as bombs.

But more importantly, the technology in Starcraft simply makes no sense. The three races are constantly using it for stupid things because the writers are not physicists and have no idea what the logical applications of the tech is (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MisappliedPhlebotinum). If you can manipulate gravity (http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Gravity_accelerator), then you can use the same gravity drive for propulsion, defense, offense, and numerous other applications (http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/antigravity.php#paragravity).

Mass Effect at least acknowledges this by explaining that all gravity manipulation is the result of applying an exotic matter that produces gravity when you apply electric current. It is used for propulsion, defense, offense and many other applications including toothbrushes.

This is actually a huge problem for me in my fanfiction. Since I actually looked up the applications of the tech on science fiction writing guides, I have to contrive reasons why the three races are not using planets as ammunition.

The simple answer is the anthropic principle. The three races are not instantly nuking the galaxy because there would be no story that way. All other reasons are rationalizations to make sense in the context of the story.

[Mislagnissa]

To me, the Overmind only knew about the whole warping concept because he assimilated the Xel'Naga, and then passed this knowledge onto Kerrigan (hence why the Cerebrates weren't pleased about all this).

With regards to other characters' communications with Kerrigan, you mean other zerg? I thought it was said that the Zerg use a form of telepathy, though different from that of the protoss. Strangely enough, Kerrigan was able to understand this even prior to infestation, one of the reasons why the Confederacy used her for zerg experimentation.

That is a continuity error (and part of the absurd Kerry Sue writing). The novel Liberty's Crusade states that telepathic communication with the zerg was possible but painful for the participants... for no apparent reason. (Kerry Sue being a walking FTL engine is just... I don't even know anymore. Even the dark templar cannot do that and they have personal short-range teleportation.)

The Blizzard writers are incomprehensible and inconsistent, so I would chalk this up to the zerg and protoss have different telepathic "languages" insofar as that makes any sense (according to the wiki the protoss have an actual language called Khalani, and the '98 website promo said they have multiple tribal languages so we can assume telepathy works analogously to speech or radio). In the SC1 manual a khaydarin crystal is used to effortlessly translate between zerg and protoss telepathy somehow (which I cannot even begin to understand the logic of), and since the crystals are ubiquitous in protoss tech then protoss should be able to understand any zerg communications that are not encrypted (which is the only explanation for how Tassadar learned of the Overmind).

[ragnarok]

That is a continuity error (and part of the absurd Kerry Sue writing). The novel Liberty's Crusade states that telepathic communication with the zerg was possible but painful for the participants... for no apparent reason. (Kerry Sue being a walking FTL engine is just... I don't even know anymore. Even the dark templar cannot do that and they have personal short-range teleportation.)


Liberty's Crusade is one of the books I haven't yet read, wouldn't know about that in detail. For the DT and the whole short range teleportation, you can just say eventually they learned from the Xel'Naga tech (as the Xel'Naga left such things on other planets)

[Mislagnissa]

Liberty's Crusade is one of the books I haven't yet read, wouldn't know about that in detail. For the DT and the whole short range teleportation, you can just say eventually they learned from the Xel'Naga tech (as the Xel'Naga left such things on other planets)

DT get that from their innate psychic powers, not external tech. Attributing everything to xel'naga space magic is just... sweet Jesus, I miss the long past archaic days of old when the protoss actually had branches of science unknown to the space gods.

Talking with you makes me depressed. The writing in Starcraft is vastly inferior to children's shows like Wakfu, Voltron Legendary Defender, Miraculous and Tales of Arcadia. The fact that adult fanboys are gleefully blind to its absurdity constantly saps my desire to continue writing my vastly superior fanfiction reboot. My currently plotted chapter focuses on "Alarak in his penthouse apartment in Protoss!Commorragh (http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Commorragh) doing BDSM on cloned human slaves (because what else would the dark eldar rip-off be doing?)" and the sheer WTF! factor of that statement is still not sufficient to motivate me.

I suppose I should be happy that I post a new chapter once every year rather than never at all. Many amateur writers are nowhere near that regular.

[drakolobo]

taldarin no copy to dark eldar, they are sith in drugs they have a better darwinian moral

[ragnarok]

DT get that from their innate psychic powers, not external tech. Attributing everything to xel'naga space magic is just... sweet Jesus, I miss the long past archaic days of old when the protoss actually had branches of science unknown to the space gods.


I'll check the manual again, don't recall that part from innate psychic powers....

[Mislagnissa]

taldarin no copy to dark eldar, they are sith in drugs they have a better darwinian moral

So basically they are klingons. I am more focused on their actual customs and recreation. Plus an excuse to put Alarak in leather pants and give him a harem like every evil overlord needs.

[ragnarok]

Talking with you makes me depressed. The writing in Starcraft is vastly inferior to children's shows like Wakfu, Voltron Legendary Defender, Miraculous and Tales of Arcadia. The fact that adult fanboys are gleefully blind to its absurdity constantly saps my desire to continue writing my vastly superior fanfiction reboot. My currently plotted chapter focuses on "Alarak in his penthouse apartment in Protoss!Commorragh (http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Commorragh) doing BDSM on cloned human slaves (because what else would the dark eldar rip-off be doing?)" and the sheer WTF! factor of that statement is still not sufficient to motivate me.

I suppose I should be happy that I post a new chapter once every year rather than never at all. Many amateur writers are nowhere near that regular.

You can say I'm easier to please in terms of story. In your case, I don't see it possible to please you at all.

[Mislagnissa]

You can say I'm easier to please in terms of story. In your case, I don't see it possible to please you at all.

That is false. I am pleased by children’s shows. I simply expect that every plot meets or exceeds that level of quality. That is far from unreasonable.

[ragnarok]

That is false. I am pleased by children’s shows. I simply expect that every plot meets or exceeds that level of quality. That is far from unreasonable.

I keep telling you, for those who didn't invest as much into the lore, they are more willing to let go if the plot didn't meet the expectation (though even that's supposed to have limits)

[Mislagnissa]

I keep telling you, for those who didn't invest as much into the lore, they are more willing to let go if the plot didn't meet the expectation (though even that's supposed to have limits)

I'm not invested in the lore. I don't care specifically that Blizzard butchered the characterization of the zerg and protoss. I care that their writing is just plain bad. It has always been. That Blizzard butchered the characterization of the zerg and protoss is just the icing on their cake of mediocrity.

The SC1 manual lore is nothing more an excuse. We can't just play an RTS where all the units are barely identifiable blobs, they need to have art designs and backstories. The SC1 manual lore provided all that: terrans in Koprulu are attacked by zerg and protoss for some mildly complicated historical reasons that are simple enough for adolescents to understand. Every race has their own self-consistent morality which allows players to root for them while playing. Even the blatantly corrupt and oppressive Confederacy is quite believable.

The games pretty much did the worst they possibly could with that premise. They did not plan ahead, made the plot up as they went along, did not care one whit about consistency or critical thought, lost all sense of scale, introduced literal demigods as main characters, absurd soap opera dynamics, etc.

Insurrection is no Shakespeare, but it uses the same plot points as Metzen's trilogy and executes them in vastly superior fashion. Sure, the zerg campaign is fairly straightforward (which is still vastly better than the pointless filler that was Episode 2) but Nargil's purring verbal quirk automatically gives him more personality than any other zerg character besides the Overmind. It even references the manual's plot points better than Metzen did, introducing things like the determinant (which in an amazing twist, at least for this franchise, actually goes wrong during experimentation), the conflict within the Koprulu expedition over humanity's fate and an alliance between terrans and protoss that feels very believable and organic considering the circumstances (because let's face it, the Raynor/Tassadar alliance felt fake as heck).

[ragnarok]

Raynor and Tassadar's alliance certainly didn't get off the right way. I didn't read the 2006 Queen of Blades book, but at the beginning, Raynor only took the alliance because associating with Tassadar is better than dealing with the zerg

[Mislagnissa]

Raynor and Tassadar's alliance certainly didn't get off the right way. I didn't read the 2006 Queen of Blades book, but at the beginning, Raynor only took the alliance because associating with Tassadar is better than dealing with the zerg

At that point in time, Raynor had no reason to believe that. Both the zerg and protoss were trying to kill the terrans. Tassadar trying to help was actually cut out of the terran campaign even though that introduced plot holes. It is a lot more believable for Raynor to team up with the genocidal aliens who destroyed his home world if they revealed they were not actually genocidal long before. In fact, the only reason Raynor and Tassadar were even on Char rather than still fighting in the first contact war was because writer mandate said they had to be, even though they contribute nothing to the story. After Rebel Yell the plot of the game falls apart and relies on cameos, contrivances and deus ex machina.

The plot of Rebel Yell is actually totally unbelievable because it makes absolutely no sense the Sons of Korhal would be trying to take over the sector at the same time two hostile alien races are trying to exterminate humanity, nor that their attempts would ever succeed or at least avoid making things even worse for everyone involved. The Sons of Korhal only succeed because of writer fiat, the zerg and protoss only withdraw because of writer fiat, and all the actually important events occur entirely off-screen because Rebel Yell suffers from narrative myopia that treats Raynor, Kerry and Arcturus as the only people of value in the entire universe. If Starcraft had been written by a seasoned military scifi writer, then it would have been filled with numerous characters (most of whom die to hammer the point that life is cheap) and ended on a cliffhanger without resolution of the war because war is complicated.

[ragnarok]

At that point in time, Raynor had no reason to believe that. Both the zerg and protoss were trying to kill the terrans. Tassadar trying to help was actually cut out of the terran campaign even though that introduced plot holes. It is a lot more believable for Raynor to team up with the genocidal aliens who destroyed his home world if they revealed they were not actually genocidal long before. In fact, the only reason Raynor and Tassadar were even on Char rather than still fighting in the first contact war was because writer mandate said they had to be, even though they contribute nothing to the story. After Rebel Yell the plot of the game falls apart and relies on cameos, contrivances and deus ex machina.

Raynor merely saw (at that moment) that to ally with Tassadar was probably the lesser of two evils. Maybe that's what Blizzard had in mind when it came to BW as well, and why Raynor accepted the so-called alliance with Kerrigan against the UED

[Mislagnissa]

Raynor merely saw (at that moment) that to ally with Tassadar was probably the lesser of two evils. Maybe that's what Blizzard had in mind when it came to BW as well, and why Raynor accepted the so-called alliance with Kerrigan against the UED

The UED wasn’t evil because of BW retcons. It makes no sense he would oppose them, and he wasn’t educated in ancient history either.

[ragnarok]

The UED wasn’t evil because of BW retcons. It makes no sense he would oppose them, and he wasn’t educated in ancient history either.

No, but he did admit Kerrigan had a point back then about what the UED were doing with the Zerg

[Mislagnissa]

No, but he did admit Kerrigan had a point back then about what the UED were doing with the Zerg

That is a stupid reason to ally with the zerg, especially after Kerry publicly murdered Aldaris. It makes no sense the protoss even let her go free after that. The UED are human and can be reasoned with. They are motivated by fear of the threat posed by the aliens, so it should be possible to convince them to exterminate the zerg preemptively. Instead Raynor teams up with his enemies against the apparent good guys for no sensible reason. Even if the UED were still nazis, they are still better than a swarm of alien locusts that want to exterminate humanity.

The canon plot is nonsensical and we are wasting our time by arguing over it. We are better amateur writers than Metzen is a professional writer, so a better use of our time is to write fanfiction about what StarCraft could have been if Blizzard had hired a competent writer.

[ragnarok]

That is a stupid reason to ally with the zerg, especially after Kerry publicly murdered Aldaris. It makes no sense the protoss even let her go free after that. The UED are human and can be reasoned with. They are motivated by fear of the threat posed by the aliens, so it should be possible to convince them to exterminate the zerg preemptively. Instead Raynor teams up with his enemies against the apparent good guys for no sensible reason. Even if the UED were still nazis, they are still better than a swarm of alien locusts that want to exterminate humanity.

The canon plot is nonsensical and we are wasting our time by arguing over it. We are better amateur writers than Metzen is a professional writer, so a better use of our time is to write fanfiction about what StarCraft could have been if Blizzard had hired a competent writer.

Again it just shows how your version of "to be pleased" is being set too high. Personally I never really felt Raynor gave a damn on Aldaris's part. Back in SC1 upon encountering him (via transmission), it was clear Raynor felt Aldaris was too arrogant for his own good

[Mislagnissa]

Again it just shows how your version of "to be pleased" is being set too high.

That is not a valid argument. That is a logical fallacy.

[ragnarok]

That is not a valid argument. That is a logical fallacy.

You'd do well to understand "to be please" depends on standards, and in your case you've raised it too high

[Mislagnissa]

You'd do well to understand "to be please" depends on standards, and in your case you've raised it too high

That is still a logical fallacy, ad hominem attack IIRC, and in a formal debate you would be considered arguing in bad faith.

Giving you the benefit of the doubt... my standards are not too high. I am using children's shows as my standard, so my standards are extremely low to begin with.

Why do you defend Starcraft's garbage of a narrative? It is not worth defending.

[drakolobo]

That is still a logical fallacy, ad hominem attack IIRC, and in a formal debate you would be considered arguing in bad faith.

Giving you the benefit of the doubt... my standards are not too high. I am using children's shows as my standard, so my standards are extremely low to begin with.

Why do you defend Starcraft's garbage of a narrative? It is not worth defending.

Alan Moore are you?

[ragnarok]

That is still a logical fallacy, ad hominem attack IIRC, and in a formal debate you would be considered arguing in bad faith.

Giving you the benefit of the doubt... my standards are not too high. I am using children's shows as my standard, so my standards are extremely low to begin with.

Why do you defend Starcraft's garbage of a narrative? It is not worth defending.

So you keep telling yourself with the whole not too high. Given how you've even said the BW story was crap.....

[Mislagnissa]

So you keep telling yourself with the whole not too high. Given how you've even said the BW story was crap.....

The BW story is reliant on plot holes, idiotic behavior and retcons. Even as a standalone story it is pretty bad.

In Episode 4 the hopeful ending of SC1 is retconned to a bad ending. The protoss have to evacuate using only a xel'naga warp gate, even though they were previously established to possess mastery of FTL drives and wormhole travel already as part of the game mechanics so they could easily evacuate using their own technology. The zerg are magically already established on Shakuras as soon as they arrive even though the zerg only had the same gate to access it. Not only that, but Shakuras has a magical xel'naga temple which can destroy the zerg even though there is no way the xel'naga could have built it since they were destroyed by the zerg shortly after creating them and thus had no time to build an anti-zerg weapon on another planet thousands of light years away. For no apparent reason, the deus ex machina temple requires two magic crystals to work and these crystals are on Char and a random terran planet. Kerry arrives, somehow able to control her own brood, and asks the protoss to help her kill her rivals in exchange for helping them find the crystals. Rather than, I don't know... capturing and imprisoning her as an existential threat, ripping the necessary information from her mind with their psychic powers and then killing her once she no longer serves a purpose, all capabilities they canonically possess and would logically be expected to do since they incinerated multiple terran planets and their millions of inhabitants for hosting zerg hive clusters... rather than doing that like smart people would be expected to do, instead they decide to ally with her like complete morons. When the protoss suspect she is transparently manipulating them (their stupidity is simply astounding by this point), Aldaris starts a rebellion (somehow convincing the khalai to join him without any compelling reason to convince them) rather than telling them his suspicions over the radio and then Kerry kills him in front of the other protoss leaders. In the single most idiotic decision they could possibly make, the protoss allow her to leave rather than executing her right then and there because murdering a foreign leader in front of his peers is a declaration of war!

Episodes 5 and 6 are similarly terrible.

[ragnarok]

The protoss never favored Aldaris given the Conclave's stupidity, Zeratul made that clear back in SC1. As for what Kerrigan did, let's just say back then it was their honor and principle code and such. This was why after BW (but before any info was out for SC2), many had believed the protoss would have ignored this when dealing with Kerrigan yet again.

[Mislagnissa]

The protoss never favored Aldaris given the Conclave's stupidity, Zeratul made that clear back in SC1. As for what Kerrigan did, let's just say back then it was their honor and principle code and such. This was why after BW (but before any info was out for SC2), many had believed the protoss would have ignored this when dealing with Kerrigan yet again.

Those excuses are not remotely plausible and you did not address the many other plot holes I mentioned. Face it: the story is garbage. Metzen himself admitted he considers the godawful story of SC/BW an embarrassment to his writing career. He cannot even remember why he killed off Tassadar, especially considering any other dark templar could have substituted for him because the backstory previously explained they nearly destroyed their home world.

[ragnarok]

Tassadar being killed off was fine, it was a noble sacrifice. It was only a shame his sacrifice didn't end the zerg threat as we had hoped for.

Anyways for your version of what's not remotely plausible, this only again shows your standards will never match the average. If we follow your logic, the whole franchise should be scrapped and we should go all the way back to the drawing board. And trust me, they're not going to so that (well, as far as I know).

Now, returning to the evacuation of Aiur via the warp gate, it's possible they were trying to address the fact that Aiur was reduced to a wasteland to the point where virtually NOTHING was left for FTL travel. Remember, Aldaris specifically said without their fleets, they have to fend for themselves.

For the zerg to come to Shakuras, it was already said they took control of the gate on Aiur. It's possible that the Overmind DID share some of his knowledge of protoss tech with the cerebrates and such, in the event the protoss tried to escape the planet.

For the Xel'Naga temple on Shakuras, they could have built it to kill off other species. It was never stated it'd ONLY kill off species uplifted by the Xel'Naga. For the Uraj and Khalis, it's possible that those were just the power batteries to power to temple. They were cut from Khaydarin crystals, but it's possible they were meant to work long before they were infused with Khala and Void energies. Kerrigan's actions in arriving on Shakuras and why the protoss gave her a chance is because Tassadar aside, they didn't know what kind of a person she was prior to infestation, unlike Raynor.

Bottom line all you're saying is that NOTHING in the storyline was worth anything and they should just remove the franchise altogether. In some ways it'd be quite interesting to see you write your own SC story and have it be criticized. Something tells me you've never been on the receiving end of the stick.

[Mislagnissa]

Tassadar being killed off was fine, it was a noble sacrifice. It was only a shame his sacrifice didn't end the zerg threat as we had hoped for.

Anyways for your version of what's not remotely plausible, this only again shows your standards will never match the average. If we follow your logic, the whole franchise should be scrapped and we should go all the way back to the drawing board. And trust me, they're not going to so that (well, as far as I know).

Now, returning to the evacuation of Aiur via the warp gate, it's possible they were trying to address the fact that Aiur was reduced to a wasteland to the point where virtually NOTHING was left for FTL travel. Remember, Aldaris specifically said without their fleets, they have to fend for themselves.

For the zerg to come to Shakuras, it was already said they took control of the gate on Aiur. It's possible that the Overmind DID share some of his knowledge of protoss tech with the cerebrates and such, in the event the protoss tried to escape the planet.

For the Xel'Naga temple on Shakuras, they could have built it to kill off other species. It was never stated it'd ONLY kill off species uplifted by the Xel'Naga. For the Uraj and Khalis, it's possible that those were just the power batteries to power to temple. They were cut from Khaydarin crystals, but it's possible they were meant to work long before they were infused with Khala and Void energies. Kerrigan's actions in arriving on Shakuras and why the protoss gave her a chance is because Tassadar aside, they didn't know what kind of a person she was prior to infestation, unlike Raynor.

Bottom line all you're saying is that NOTHING in the storyline was worth anything and they should just remove the franchise altogether. In some ways it'd be quite interesting to see you write your own SC story and have it be criticized. Something tells me you've never been on the receiving end of the stick.All of your excuses are implausible.

Tassadar killed himself because it was cool, not because it made any strategic sense. Literally any other dark templar could have substituted for him. Tassadar’s sacrifice cost the protoss his expertise, and ultimately proved pointless because of the Overmind whack-a-mole garbage. That’s bad writing.

The protoss have no problem anywhere else in the game teleporting bases and units or traveling between planets by gate and ship. The xel’naga gate is an unnecessary plot hole.

Your timeline is wrong. The zerg took the gate after the protoss evacuated, yet impossibly arrived and occupied the temple before they did.

Why would anyone would build a generic doomsday device like that on an obscure planet like Shakuras? It’s a plot contrivance. It makes no sense they could not substitute different power sources, either. They already have both khala pylons and dark pylons, whatever the relevant differences are (the whole “invested with khala/void energy” is complete gibberish if you know anything about how energy works; that is actually magical resonance, which is from the fantasy genre and has no place in a scifi setting).

Kerry is a zerg working with the zerg. The protoss were quite willing to incinerate terran worlds because of zerg presence. They should not give a damn that Kerry used to be human.

Yes, the story is garbage and needs rebooting. I’ve only said that about a thousand times. Pretty much everyone except you acknowledges that the story is full of holes and idiocy.

I do write my own Starcraft stories. I told you before and you refused to read/criticize them because you were afraid to hurt my feelings. I have been criticized at length and learned from my mistakes. I have gotten glowing reviews, mostly from alternatehistory.com because it has much higher standards than the wretched hive that is fanfiction.net.

[ragnarok]

Oh I've acknowledged the plot hole problems, I'm just not the type of person to be that critical like you are. Once again all you do is say all excuses are implausible. If we follow your logic, then there's no such thing as a plausible excuse for ANYTHING. And now you go criticizing ff.net when I had gotten quite a number of good reviews for my SC fic off that site.

I never heard of the site alternatehistory.com. Maybe I'll look sometime in the future.

Anyways this is exactly your problem: you make it sound like everyone else's reasoning is BS and yours is the only one that makes sense. As for you saying you've been criticized at length, how many of those criticisms did you actually accept, and how many did you blow off, feeling those were made by morons who should by put in the insane asylum?

[drakolobo]

:rolleyes:

[Mislagnissa]

Oh I've acknowledged the plot hole problems, I'm just not the type of person to be that critical like you are. Once again all you do is say all excuses are implausible. If we follow your logic, then there's no such thing as a plausible excuse for ANYTHING. And now you go criticizing ff.net when I had gotten quite a number of good reviews for my SC fic off that site.

I never heard of the site alternatehistory.com. Maybe I'll look sometime in the future.

Anyways this is exactly your problem: you make it sound like everyone else's reasoning is BS and yours is the only one that makes sense. As for you saying you've been criticized at length, how many of those criticisms did you actually accept, and how many did you blow off, feeling those were made by morons who should by put in the insane asylum?
Fanfiction.net does not foster much criticism due to its low barrier to entry. The Starcraft community there is more interested in soap opera than military scifi.

Alternatehistory.com is full of military history buffs. They gave my story far more attention than ff.net did.

I have rewritten stories in response to criticism. Sometimes I argued, but I acknowledge I made mistakes.

EDIT: I have rewritten my work loads of times even without external criticism. I am human and I come up with stupid ideas all the time. I recognize that there is always room for improvement.

[drakolobo]

All of your excuses are implausible.

Tassadar killed himself because it was cool, not because it made any strategic sense. Literally any other dark templar could have substituted for him. Tassadar’s sacrifice cost the protoss his expertise, and ultimately proved pointless because of the Overmind whack-a-mole garbage. That’s bad writing.
tassadar commits suicide because the dark templar is only superficially damaging the ovemind on land, he creates a 1,000-meter psychic bullet
the overmind was more resistant than the cerabrate and the time was pressing at that moment in history 70% of the population and the contigenes lagged that we evacuated in brood war would die, the strategic reductions. save more lives


The protoss have no problem anywhere else in the game teleporting bases and units or traveling between planets by gate and ship. The xel’naga gate is an unnecessary plot hole.
hat there is incoherent that teleportation networks have been damaged ?, in the invasion of aiur Artanis recover the portals as the first phase of recovery in Legacy, the protoss we handle is not a consistent military force are laggards who are trying to leave the planet and the xlnaga portal represents an exit at that moment when the other escape routes are closed, in the Mothership story it is described that the research ships were called and carried evacuation tasks and tried to face lso zerg, Aiur was the planet with the greatest Protoss concentration and the most industrialized few protoss colonies are really just as impressive, few planets should represent this. Shakuras represents a similar scenario therefore a good point to relocate




Why would anyone would build a generic doomsday device like that on an obscure planet like Shakuras? It’s a plot contrivance. It makes no sense they could not substitute different power sources, either. They already have both khala pylons and dark pylons, whatever the relevant differences are (the whole “invested with khala/void energy” is complete gibberish if you know anything about how energy works; that is actually magical resonance, which is from the fantasy genre and has no place in a scifi setting).
the artifacts are keys, very possibly so that not everyone could use it. The xelnagas should control both, at no time they say that it provides the power of the weapons,
a famous letter said a sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from the masgia, the energy khala is energy produced by the organic brains of the protoss that is accumulated under the premise that the brain structures can generate energy and the brain can interact directly With the material world, the void energy is an omnipresent energy in the same universe, which means that it exists in the spectrum of cosmic forces that we know of, for example, the material matter and dark energy that all the astronomical models fit. what xelnagas used as a method of travel. the existence of the temples could be for different purposes, be it defensive point, the capacity of attacks on a planetary scale that affects specific organisms is interesting and is reused in WoL as evidence of the technological level Xelnaga
Kerry is a zerg working with the zerg. The protoss were quite willing to incinerate terran worlds because of zerg presence. They should not give a damn that Kerry used to be human.


Yes, the story is garbage and needs rebooting. I’ve only said that about a thousand times. Pretty much everyone except you acknowledges that the story is full of holes and idiocy.
you could be inspired by starcraft and write your original series if it is so bad, the fanfic works best as an extension of the universe, what if scenario, crosssover, at the end Starcraft and starcraft 2 are canon and they write the rules of the universe, if fundadamentel are a disaster I think I will produce something new it is better to take the best concepts


I do write my own Starcraft stories. I told you before and you refused to read/criticize them because you were afraid to hurt my feelings. I have been criticized at length and learned from my mistakes. I have gotten glowing reviews, mostly from alternatehistory.com because it has much higher standards than the wretched hive that is fanfiction.net.
he suspension of disbelief allows us to enjoy stories of fiction, having a broad criterion to be able to focus on what it takes to tell you the story,
that allows me to see a movie like starwar, where the aliens are too human, although if we go deeper we have plausibel explanations like the convergent evolution, or the explanation of halo + the jupiter acceleration, the humanity is more ancient and galactic level and has planted in multitude of planets with slight evolutionary variations

[Mislagnissa]

Drak, I can barely understand what you are saying because your text is riddled with errors.

In any event, all of those are plot contrivances or contradictions. They are not at all necessary to tell the story, they are filler designed solely to pad out the missions. Metzen simply was not a good writer: he constantly wrote himself into corners so he relied on lazy shortcuts and plotholes. He artificially dragged out the story with bad writing because he had no idea what to do with it.

I am writing a reboot. I talked about that in the past IIRC.

[ragnarok]

Fanfiction.net does not foster much criticism due to its low barrier to entry. The Starcraft community there is more interested in soap opera than military scifi.

Alternatehistory.com is full of military history buffs. They gave my story far more attention than ff.net did.

I have rewritten stories in response to criticism. Sometimes I argued, but I acknowledge I made mistakes.

EDIT: I have rewritten my work loads of times even without external criticism. I am human and I come up with stupid ideas all the time. I recognize that there is always room for improvement.

Interesting for alternatehistory. As a reader of dozens of WWII books, it may be interesting to check out. And I didn't mind the community on ff.net for pairings. Sure, we all know that's never supposed to be the point for the SC games, but in fics you can do otherwise.

For example, if you're going to limit the scope of it all to just a single battle, then by all means a pairing is just fine.

[Mislagnissa]

I am getting ahead of myself. Really, the first plot device is the psi-emitter. It is a plot device because its entire purpose is to attract the zerg, thereby dooming the planet to destruction. The logistics simply do not work out, and this is a running problem with Metzen's writing.

The zerg in Koprulu are at a disadvantage against the protoss. That is the entire reason they are in Koprulu, at least before Metzen retconned/plotholed that away. They are fighting the war on multiple fronts, with their broods spread across multiple different planets. The zerg present in Koprulu are a scout force (the broods listed in the manual have laughably small numbers as Gradius noted), and one which the terrans could repel if they got their act together. Furthermore, the zerg are intelligent and actively seeking out human psychics rather than mindlessly following psychic beacons.

When Arcturus is summoning the zerg, where are they coming from? Zerg forces sent to investigate the beacon have to be drawn from existing forces and this would weaken the front they were previously fighting at. Furthermore, there are not enough zerg to arbitrarily overwhelm any planet; that is a plot contrivance Metzen phoned in to justify relegating the Koprulu war to a footnote. The circumstances of the Battle of Chau Sara are vague enough that you could argue the purification of the planet was overzealous: the militia was still fighting to the end and the Confederacy was actively jamming communications for unspecified reasons.

In the novel Speed of Darkness, the author demonstrates an understanding of logistics by having the cast use the zerg’s limited numbers to their advantage. When Mar Sara City is being evacuated, the cast deploys a psi-emitter to lure away the zerg forces to give the evacuation the time it needed.

Mar Sara could have easily been the sole location of the entire SC1 story and explored the same thematic ground. It is the setting of at least one novel and short story, and a major location in the first part of WoL despite having been incinerated.

[ragnarok]

I still haven't read the Speed of Darkness book, I wouldn't know.

The psi-emitter was an experimental Confederate project. It's not like they knew just how much zerg it'd REALLY end up attracting. The main problem was when it was used at Tarsonis. You'd think there'd have to be a lot more zerg in the sector for it to work, not for them to be so far away and such.

[Turalyon]

Really, the first plot device is the psi-emitter. It is a plot device because its entire purpose is to attract the zerg, thereby dooming the planet to destruction. The logistics simply do not work out, and this is a running problem with Metzen's writing.

Seems like you're implying that any story that uses plot device is "bad". You do realise that every story in existence runs on plot device/artifice/conceit, right? The Psi emitter's function and role in moving the plot is somewhat secondary to its importance in bringing about character development (ie: Mengsk's resolve in seeing his mission through and his growing egomania, Kerrigan's questioning about the lengths that they're resorting to) - which is what most people find more memorable than what it actually does. This is how plot devices are used effectively - to balance or override the obvious nature of it just moving a plot along. Contrast this with the use of the Psi Disruptor plot device, where it's purely used to mechanically move the plot and the characters into specific positions and situations.


and one which the terrans could repel if they got their act together.

I highly doubt that. Even were it not for the game to demonstrate it (the Confeds - the mightiest Terran faction at the time - can barely control or resist them even when they know the most about them), the manual clearly pits the Terrans as being weak and defenceless against the Zerg.


When Arcturus is summoning the zerg, where are they coming from? Zerg forces sent to investigate the beacon have to be drawn from existing forces and this would weaken the front they were previously fighting at. Furthermore, there are not enough zerg to arbitrarily overwhelm any planet; that is a plot contrivance Metzen phoned in to justify relegating the Koprulu war to a footnote. The circumstances of the Battle of Chau Sara are vague enough that you could argue the purification of the planet was overzealous: the militia was still fighting to the end and the Confederacy was actively jamming communications for unspecified reasons.

I've always taken the Zerg "attraction" to the Psi Emitter as being tied to the Overminds motivation in finding a Terran psionic - as in they are not mindlessly compelled but that it is a wilful response/reaction of the Overmind chasing down a lead. As to whether the Zerg forces sent to "overwhelm a planet" is meant to be taken literally, I just consider that the scope of Sc1 was actually pretty small and that what amounted to a "planet" was really just the colony on that planet.

[Mislagnissa]

I still haven't read the Speed of Darkness book, I wouldn't know.

The psi-emitter was an experimental Confederate project. It's not like they knew just how much zerg it'd REALLY end up attracting. The main problem was when it was used at Tarsonis. You'd think there'd have to be a lot more zerg in the sector for it to work, not for them to be so far away and such.

Precisely. There are not enough zerg in the sector and they are too spread out. Not only that, but the zerg are already fighting elsewhere. They cannot devote many resources to investigating the beacon, especially when all they know is that they can sense a single mind across interstellar distances.

Metzen fudged the plot to force it in the direction he wanted, even though that was a bad direction.

[ragnarok]

Precisely. There are not enough zerg in the sector and they are too spread out. Not only that, but the zerg are already fighting elsewhere. They cannot devote many resources to investigating the beacon, especially when all they know is that they can sense a single mind across interstellar distances.

Metzen fudged the plot to force it in the direction he wanted, even though that was a bad direction.

That depended on just how much resources the zerg had in the first place.

[Mislagnissa]

Seems like you're implying that any story that uses plot device is "bad". You do realise that every story in existence runs on plot device/artifice/conceit, right? The Psi emitter's function and role in moving the plot is somewhat secondary to its importance in bringing about character development (ie: Mengsk's resolve in seeing his mission through and his growing egomania, Kerrigan's questioning about the lengths that they're resorting to) - which is what most people find more memorable than what it actually does. This is how plot devices are used effectively - to balance or override the obvious nature of it just moving a plot along. Contrast this with the use of the Psi Disruptor plot device, where it's purely used to mechanically move the plot and the characters into specific positions and situations.

I did not say the psi-emitter was inherently bad. The bad comes from Metzen ignoring the implications of logistics because he wanted to conclude the Koprulu war in the first act rather than use it as the backdrop for the entire game. The zerg are both intelligent and have limited numbers, so this affects when and how they investigate beacons.


I highly doubt that. Even were it not for the game to demonstrate it (the Confeds - the mightiest Terran faction at the time - can barely control or resist them even when they know the most about them), the manual clearly pits the Terrans as being weak and defenceless against the Zerg. The zerg sent a scouting force, as evidenced by the tiny broods. The presence of the protoss throws a wrench into that. An alliance between the Umojans and Akilae was teased.


I've always taken the Zerg "attraction" to the Psi Emitter as being tied to the Overminds motivation in finding a Terran psionic - as in they are not mindlessly compelled but that it is a wilful response/reaction of the Overmind chasing down a lead. As to whether the Zerg forces sent to "overwhelm a planet" is meant to be taken literally, I just consider that the scope of Sc1 was actually pretty small and that what amounted to a "planet" was really just the colony on that planet.It does not make sense the Overmind would invest so much effort into chasing down a single psychic when there are millions of others they can detect.

It feels to me like Metzen forgot why the zerg were there in the first place and he ended up treating them as a plot device rather than a side in a war in order to advance the plot in a direction he wanted regardless of whether it made sense in the larger context. Part of that may be due to the cinematics being made separately from the game script so he was forced to write around those, but that does not excuse the decisions he made since those cinematics are vague enough to mean a lot of different things.

Reducing the scale does solve a lot of problems with the plot, since the writers clearly did not understand the scales involved.


That depended on just how much resources the zerg had in the first place.The way the manual set up things up, the three races looked to be evenly matched. Metzen fudged this so that he could conclude the Koprulu war in the first act rather than use it as the backdrop for the entire series.

Ironically, the conflict we got in canon takes place entirely in Koprulu sector (since Aiur was retconned to be in Koprulu) so in a roundabout way the games actually did focus entirely on the Koprulu war.

[ragnarok]

I did not say the psi-emitter was inherently bad. The bad comes from Metzen ignoring the implications of logistics because he wanted to conclude the Koprulu war in the first act rather than use it as the backdrop for the entire game. The zerg are both intelligent and have limited numbers, so this affects when and how they investigate beacons.


I'm unsure as to just how much the Overmind knew about the terrans. If nothing else I'd say he could have investigated for the sake of curiosity. But even then that wouldn't have drawn in that much zerg.

[Mislagnissa]

I'm unsure as to just how much the Overmind knew about the terrans. If nothing else I'd say he could have investigated for the sake of curiosity. But even then that wouldn't have drawn in that much zerg.

The manual states that the Overmind sent a scouting brood to infest the dozen or so terran planets. Later lore, IIRC the game exposition slides, retconned the sector to an arbitrarily high number of worlds and those mentioned in the manual were the "core" worlds. The terminology is weird and inconsistent ("fringe" and "outer" are somehow different astrogeographical terms in the lore), but basically they were worlds of strategic value to the Confederacy and were located across their territory. Why a penal colony like Chau Sara would be considered a key world, much less have a population in the millions according to the most recent lore, is beyond me.

In any event, the manual does not give any time table for this. The novel Uprising states that the Confederacy discovered the zerg presence in 2487 (over a decade before the Battle of Chau Sara) and somehow started an interstellar cholera epidemic to depopulate the fringe worlds so they could study the zerg in secret. This explanation is pretty absurd since by all rights something like that should be noticed by everyone in the sector as the largest humanitarian disaster in history, and I pointed out as much in my fanfiction.

The Battle of Chau Sara itself is one of the vaguest and contradictory events in the lore. Despite being a core world, nobody noticed when the Confederacy quarantined the planet during the battle with the zerg. Why they were battling the zerg is unknown, since it was only after this that the zerg started mobilizing on the other worlds. The lore on the psi-emitter claims that the Confederacy started the battle by attracting too many zerg to Chau Sara or something, but again this ignores the problem of logistics I mentioned before. The Confederacy had been trying to breed and weaponize the zerg for years before the Battle, so it is entirely possible that the zerg made a pre-emptive strike against what they considered a threat. It does not really help that the logic of RTS games means that single missions might realistically cover days or weeks of in-universe time but the authors of the story, who are not military buffs, easily forget this and give ridiculously scales for absolutely everything.

This is the sort of stuff I have to explain while writing my fanfiction.

[ragnarok]

The manual states that the Overmind sent a scouting brood to infest the dozen or so terran planets. Later lore, IIRC the game exposition slides, retconned the sector to an arbitrarily high number of worlds and those mentioned in the manual were the "core" worlds. The terminology is weird and inconsistent ("fringe" and "outer" are somehow different astrogeographical terms in the lore), but basically they were worlds of strategic value to the Confederacy and were located across their territory. Why a penal colony like Chau Sara would be considered a key world, much less have a population in the millions according to the most recent lore, is beyond me.

In any event, the manual does not give any time table for this. The novel Uprising states that the Confederacy discovered the zerg presence in 2487 (over a decade before the Battle of Chau Sara) and somehow started an interstellar cholera epidemic to depopulate the fringe worlds so they could study the zerg in secret. This explanation is pretty absurd since by all rights something like that should be noticed by everyone in the sector as the largest humanitarian disaster in history, and I pointed out as much in my fanfiction.

The Battle of Chau Sara itself is one of the vaguest and contradictory events in the lore. Despite being a core world, nobody noticed when the Confederacy quarantined the planet during the battle with the zerg. Why they were battling the zerg is unknown, since it was only after this that the zerg started mobilizing on the other worlds. The lore on the psi-emitter claims that the Confederacy started the battle by attracting too many zerg to Chau Sara or something, but again this ignores the problem of logistics I mentioned before. The Confederacy had been trying to breed and weaponize the zerg for years before the Battle, so it is entirely possible that the zerg made a pre-emptive strike against what they considered a threat. It does not really help that the logic of RTS games means that single missions might realistically cover days or weeks of in-universe time but the authors of the story, who are not military buffs, easily forget this and give ridiculously scales for absolutely everything.

This is the sort of stuff I have to explain while writing my fanfiction.

A key world relative to who? You have to remember what is a fringe and crappy world to one person doesn't have to be to another.

[Turalyon]

I did not say the psi-emitter was inherently bad. The bad comes from Metzen ignoring the implications of logistics because he wanted to conclude the Koprulu war in the first act rather than use it as the backdrop for the entire game. The zerg are both intelligent and have limited numbers, so this affects when and how they investigate beacons.

How do you know that the Zerg being lured to the planets with Psi Emitters weren't actually a calculated risk/move that the Overmind was willing to take? The manual states the Overmind was more than willing to allow the Protoss to hamper its initial efforts in order to observe them, which doesn't sound like the Overmind was overly cautious about its limited numbers.


The zerg sent a scouting force, as evidenced by the tiny broods.

It's kinda relative though. The Terran numbers are not stated but since they consider the Zerg quite numerous, it's implied they are outmatched compared to the Zerg numbers.


An alliance between the Umojans and Akilae was teased.

You're stretching mightily hard there. Besides, we're talking specifically about the Terran's capability of resisting the Zerg on their own here.


It does not make sense the Overmind would invest so much effort into chasing down a single psychic when there are millions of others they can detect.

It would if it thought it was worth it. The Psi-Emitters do amplify the inherent signal of a Ghost afterall, so the Overmind could've thought that this singular strong human psychic presence that popped up was an easy get.


It feels to me like Metzen forgot why the zerg were there in the first place and he ended up treating them as a plot device rather than a side in a war in order to advance the plot in a direction he wanted regardless of whether it made sense in the larger context.

Of course the Zerg are a plot device. They're the antagonists. So what? At least there's character to them and they're memorable through the Overmind. Compare this to BW where they truly are nothing more than a thing to be fought over, controlled or talked about.


The way the manual set up things up, the three races looked to be evenly matched.

But they're not really, in terms of lore, is it? You yourself have said that the Protoss are more powerful than the Zerg in all practical circumstances and I've said the Terrans have always been weaksauce compared to the other two, with the manual potentially backing these two things up. "Evenly matched" is only important for gameplay reasons.


Metzen fudged this so that he could conclude the Koprulu war in the first act rather than use it as the backdrop for the entire series.

"One and done" isn't necessarily a bad thing. It's no worse than "potentially ongoing".

[Mislagnissa]

A key world relative to who? You have to remember what is a fringe and crappy world to one person doesn't have to be to another.As defined by the Confederacy. "Core world" (http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Core_Worlds) is a term in the lore.


How do you know that the Zerg being lured to the planets with Psi Emitters weren't actually a calculated risk/move that the Overmind was willing to take? Since the zerg were intelligent, invaded the sector specifically to harvest psychics, and were probably aware of the Confederacy's experiments through their telepathic communication network, by definition the forces investigating psi-emitter beacons were a calculated move. The problem is that the authors writing the fiction seemingly forgot this and treated the psi-emitter as a generic zerg terrorism device.


The manual states the Overmind was more than willing to allow the Protoss to hamper its initial efforts in order to observe them, which doesn't sound like the Overmind was overly cautious about its limited numbers. That is more complicated than the zerg being unconcerned about their numbers. The zerg may not be aware that the protoss fought an Aeon of Strife which decimated their civilization, but they are aware that the protoss are powerful and could wipe the floor with them. Throwing zerg at the protoss fleet would accomplish nothing and only alert the protoss to their intelligence, but studying their tactics might give the zerg insight into avoiding their destruction before they can weaponize the determinant. Right now their strategy has shifted from solely harvesting humanity to avoiding destruction by the protoss before the harvest yields fruit.


It's kinda relative though. The Terran numbers are not stated but since they consider the Zerg quite numerous, it's implied they are outmatched compared to the Zerg numbers.Sure, but as I have said before the narrative contrives to place the three on roughly equal footing in the Koprulu context.

Speaking of, the manual stating that the zerg infesting Koprulu are a scouting brood (broods?) implies that there are more zerg not infesting the planets. These might be where the extra zerg come from in the game to enable the psi-emitter terrorism, but it makes no tactical sense for the zerg to keep numbers in reserve if they are fighting a life or death battle against the protoss and terrans to acquire the determinant. In fact, since the protoss are arguing over the safety of the terrans then it is in the best of the zerg not to give the protoss reason to purify planets by, say, annihilating the terrans who could instead be used as hostages.

The invasion of Brontes is the only example where this sort of makes sense, since the protoss fight each other to the point where they cannot effectively repel the zerg. Plus, the zerg actually take at least some protoss as hostages and are willing to exploit the zerg worshiper cults that popped up.

We don't know how the exact output of the carrier's planetary bombardment, but Syndrea seemed to think that Andraxxus' 7th Fleet was sufficient to bombard Brontes IV. By cross-reference with other parts of the lore, every Executor commands a carrier as flagship of his fleet so there are at least fifty fleets in the Koprulu expedition if we assume that the fleet of fifty ships that bombarded Chau Sara were referring to the carriers.

On the other hand, the zerg keeping most of the swarm in reserve makes sense if they do not wish to alert the protoss to the true extent of their presence as a galactic power. The Koprulu scouts who harvest human psychics can use their telepathy to send the genes they acquire to the swarms waiting elsewhere where they can engage in more detailed analysis and mass production.


You're stretching mightily hard there. Besides, we're talking specifically about the Terran's capability of resisting the Zerg on their own here.Precisely. I don't think the terrans could survive a prolonged conflict without allying with the protoss. Even in the face of two alien invasions they still cannot get other their differences and actually try to exploit the aliens for their own purposes.



It would if it thought it was worth it. The Psi-Emitters do amplify the inherent signal of a Ghost afterall, so the Overmind could've thought that this singular strong human psychic presence that popped up was an easy get.Noted. The psi-emitter amplifies the neurograph of any psychic who activates it, not just a ghost. If ghosts were sufficiently rare, and the wiki states that the Confederacy only employed a few hundred at the height of the Ghost Program, then I could understand diverting forces to acquire one.




Of course the Zerg are a plot device. They're the antagonists. So what? At least there's character to them and they're memorable through the Overmind. Compare this to BW where they truly are nothing more than a thing to be fought over, controlled or talked about.
They are a playable faction in a military context. They need to have objectives and logistics that make sense from their own perspective.



But they're not really, in terms of lore, is it? You yourself have said that the Protoss are more powerful than the Zerg in all practical circumstances and I've said the Terrans have always been weaksauce compared to the other two, with the manual potentially backing these two things up. "Evenly matched" is only important for gameplay reasons.In the limited context of the Koprulu conflict, their local presence is roughly equivalent when we do not include super weapons and so forth unaccounted for in gameplay.




"One and done" isn't necessarily a bad thing. It's no worse than "potentially ongoing".The way Blizzard did things, there was no real distinction. If you ignore the stupider plot points and gloss over pretty much everything, the games' story could be easily re-framed as an implementation of the Koprulu conflict promised in the manual because. The EU depicts the three races as being in a constant state of war anyway, even if Blizzard's absurd story renders all that nonsensical. The status quo remains essentially the same across the series because the limitations of logistics do not exist in the StarCraft universe, and every trilogy essentially rehashes the same basic plot.

[ragnarok]

Since the zerg were intelligent, invaded the sector specifically to harvest psychics, and were probably aware of the Confederacy's experiments through their telepathic communication network, by definition the forces investigating psi-emitter beacons were a calculated move. The problem is that the authors writing the fiction seemingly forgot this and treated the psi-emitter as a generic zerg terrorism device.


The whole harvesting psychics was because at that point, the infestation and assimilation of protoss didn't seem to work, so the Overmind needed another species with psionics in order to fill the gap. That way, it'll strengthen the swarm to the point where it can have better chances against the protoss. Thus INITIALLY it was about investigating the beacons. But since you need a ghost for the emitter to work, it's possible the writers wanted the Overmind to have the mentality of sending the swarm the moment there's a beacon, so a ghost could be harvested.

After all, the point is to assimilate what's USEFUL. Therefore, the writers might have wanted the Overmind to have as many ghosts as possible captured, then decide for himself who's the best candidate for assimilation or infestation.

[Mislagnissa]

The whole harvesting psychics was because at that point, the infestation and assimilation of protoss didn't seem to work, so the Overmind needed another species with psionics in order to fill the gap. That way, it'll strengthen the swarm to the point where it can have better chances against the protoss. Thus INITIALLY it was about investigating the beacons. But since you need a ghost for the emitter to work, it's possible the writers wanted the Overmind to have the mentality of sending the swarm the moment there's a beacon, so a ghost could be harvested.

After all, the point is to assimilate what's USEFUL. Therefore, the writers might have wanted the Overmind to have as many ghosts as possible captured, then decide for himself who's the best candidate for assimilation or infestation.

Originally the zerg needed powerful psychics to counter the protoss, but as the plotholes and retcons accumulated this became irrelevant. In the most recent iteration of lore this plot point makes no sense, since the zerg never needed terran psychics to defeat the wimpy dying protoss.

I doubt it is possible to determine what the writers wanted since they changed their minds so often and could not keep track of their own writing. The lore is an irrational mess and I made peace with that fact long ago. Now I just pick a set of consistent rules and force everything else to conform.

[ragnarok]

Originally the zerg needed powerful psychics to counter the protoss, but as the plotholes and retcons accumulated this became irrelevant. In the most recent iteration of lore this plot point makes no sense, since the zerg never needed terran psychics to defeat the wimpy dying protoss.

I doubt it is possible to determine what the writers wanted since they changed their minds so often and could not keep track of their own writing. The lore is an irrational mess and I made peace with that fact long ago. Now I just pick a set of consistent rules and force everything else to conform.

That changing minds happened more in the case for the SC2 lore. We could easily see that just from the HotS storyline.

As for the need for terran psychics, that's because the Overmind didn't know the Conclave refused to change their ways. Zeratul made to clear to Aldaris that the Conclave's actions were only helping the Overmind.

[Mislagnissa]

That changing minds happened more in the case for the SC2 lore. We could easily see that just from the HotS storyline.No, it has been present since the beginning. The 1996 website had a dramatically different pitch, th 1998 website included details never referenced again, the manual has a few internal contradictions, and the SC1 game dramatically diverges from the manual in key plot points. The BW website included a noticeably different pitch for the plot and interviews mentioned that at one point the zerg were intended to invade Earth but this was scrapped.

The writers have always changed their minds. The SC1 manual has the least internal contradictions of any source, but it still has a few. In fact, there are two drafts of the manual floating on the internet with slightly different statistics for some units like wraiths and defilers.


As for the need for terran psychics, that's because the Overmind didn't know the Conclave refused to change their ways. Zeratul made to clear to Aldaris that the Conclave's actions were only helping the Overmind.
Those facts are unrelated.

As of the first game, the zerg were searching for Aiur and got lost in Koprulu because plot contrivance. There was no reason they could not steamroll the protoss. They never needed psychics because that plot point was dropped by the writer. You can tell because Kerry Sue was intended to fight undefined "enemies" then was assigned to fight the dark templar instead even though they were not the enemies she was intended to fight since the zerg did not know the dark templar existed when the zerg infested her. The writer was clearly making this up on the fly without planning any arc beforehand.

The Conclave's actions made no difference because the zerg were too powerful either way. They only won because of a plot contrivance and one that was immediately invalidated in the very next campaign.

The plot contrives to make the Conclave into idiotic villains because the writer could not handle moral ambiguity. In the manual, the backstory explains that the rogues nearly destroyed their home planet so the Conclave's fears of them are justified.

Think about it from a rational perspective. The dark templar have not destroyed themselves, so that implies they have learned to control these storms. Would it not make sense they would want revenge on the Empire for exiling them?

The only stupid decision the Conclave made was sending the Executor to retrieve Tassadar on Char. There was absolutely no reason to do that since Tassadar sounded like a raving lunatic (he claims only dark templar can kill cerebrates), wanted them to come anyway, and the Executor was a friend of Tassadar who might believe him. It was forced by the plot being the writer could not come up with an elegant way to insert the terrans into the campaign because the writer had previously wrapped up the Koprulu sector arc even though the premise of the game was the three races fighting over Koprulu.

It is pointless for us to keep arguing. The canon is an irrational mess that no amount of arguing can ever explain. It is vastly more constructive for me to write a rational fixit alternate universe fanfiction which addresses all the problems I have with the lore.

If you want something to argue about, pick a universe with consistent rules that allows the audience to make predictions about what can happen.

[Turalyon]

The problem is that the authors writing the fiction seemingly forgot this and treated the psi-emitter as a generic zerg terrorism device.

I'm not sure if you can really say that conclusively because what we see and know of the psi-emitter as being a generic terrorism device is limited/filtered through the Terran perspective, and a particular Terran at that (Mengsk). The psi emitter is just an object on its own but it's how the characters perceive it and react to it that makes it an effective plot device beyond just rote narrative utility. Contrast this with the crystals/temple and the psi-disruptor in BW, where those two plot devices serve nothing more to the story beyond their actual utility and how the characters don't really develop beyond merely using/accessing the plot device.


That is more complicated than the zerg being unconcerned about their numbers. The zerg may not be aware that the protoss fought an Aeon of Strife which decimated their civilization, but they are aware that the protoss are powerful and could wipe the floor with them. Throwing zerg at the protoss fleet would accomplish nothing and only alert the protoss to their intelligence, but studying their tactics might give the zerg insight into avoiding their destruction before they can weaponize the determinant. Right now their strategy has shifted from solely harvesting humanity to avoiding destruction by the protoss before the harvest yields fruit.

But the Zerg did exactly as you said above in the manual at Chau Sara - and can be surmised to be continuing doing so throughout the start of the Sc campaign. Are you saying that the Zerg/Overmind didn't know what they were doing in their initial forays with the Terrans or purposefully trying to expose themselves by constantly going after leads that could lead to its determinant? Do you think that the Overmind didn't know what it was doing and the consequences of allowing its Zerg to go after those Psi-emitter signals before doing so? Besides, how else is the Overmind going to find its determinant without sending out raiding parties when leads show up and risk Protoss being alerted to them at the same time?

The Zerg are only ever "exposed" once they start incorporating Kerrigan into the Swarm. Before then, it wasn't clear where they were, how strong they were or if they were ever going to make themselves openly and wholly known at all, so they had the advantage of initiative.


Sure, but as I have said before the narrative contrives to place the three on roughly equal footing in the Koprulu context.

I don't think the terrans could survive a prolonged conflict without allying with the protoss.

These statements don't really gel. I can't tell whether you really consider each race to be equal with the others or not. Sure you can have factional Terran and Protoss alliances but this doesn't resolve the issue that the Terrans as a whole are not equal to the Zerg (or Protoss) as a whole. Also, according to you the Zerg are not equal to the Protoss without the determinant, which makes your claim of them all being "equal" from the start confusing. What happens when the Zerg do get their determinant? Will they be more powerful than the Protoss assuming they were "roughly equal" from the start or will they then only be equal to the Protoss with the determinant as the Overmind intends it to be (which suggests they weren't equal to begin with...)? Will the Terrans become unequal with the Zerg when they get their determinant or even more unequal than initially, given that the Terrans are comparatively weaker than the others from the get-go? Sustaining a status quo that all 3 being viable and "equal" over a lengthy period of time of conflict wouldn't be "realistic" when the 3 aren't really "equal" to begin with.


They need to have objectives and logistics that make sense from their own perspective.

But they did have this in Sc1.


In the limited context of the Koprulu conflict, their local presence is roughly equivalent when we do not include super weapons and so forth unaccounted for in gameplay.

That's super vague. What do you mean by "local presence"? What metric do you use to gauge such equivalence? Does this factor in actual capability and efficiency of the use of armed forces for each race?


The way Blizzard did things, there was no real distinction.

Really? Sc1 could've easily been a "one and done"/ended without continuation. Sure, there was sequel bait but most of the broad plots and themes it setup were hit upon and resolved adequately (whether it was satisfactory is a subjective matter). The manual is just a set up and not necessarily reflecting that it is the status quo forevermore.

[ragnarok]

No, it has been present since the beginning. The 1996 website had a dramatically different pitch, th 1998 website included details never referenced again, the manual has a few internal contradictions, and the SC1 game dramatically diverges from the manual in key plot points. The BW website included a noticeably different pitch for the plot and interviews mentioned that at one point the zerg were intended to invade Earth but this was scrapped.

The writers have always changed their minds. The SC1 manual has the least internal contradictions of any source, but it still has a few. In fact, there are two drafts of the manual floating on the internet with slightly different statistics for some units like wraiths and defilers.


Well no one here is saying the SC1 lore was flawless, it's just that the SC2 lore you could see the inconsistency problems much quicker, even for those who knew NOTHING of the SC universe.

And as for the whole arguing point, you're the one who feels the whole SC universe lore since day 1 was total BS. I may not be as critical to the SC2 lore as others, but still

[Mislagnissa]

I do not have any good answers for you.

[ragnarok]

I do not have any good answers for you.

And much of what I read from you basically just comes down to the same thing: that you feel the SC lore since day 1 was so crappy the writers should be locked in the insane asylum. Know this: no matter what kind of SC fic YOU write, there's bound to be those who will still insist you were inconsistent.

[Mislagnissa]

And much of what I read from you basically just comes down to the same thing: that you feel the SC lore since day 1 was so crappy the writers should be locked in the insane asylum. Know this: no matter what kind of SC fic YOU write, there's bound to be those who will still insist you were inconsistent.

If that is supposed to intimidate me, it does not. I am a perfectionist and I constantly doubt myself because of that. I have noticed inconsistencies in my own work before and I have constantly made minor edits to past work for the sake of consistency or avoiding writing myself into a corner.

I doubt anyone can write a work of fiction without inconsistencies. That's why publishers hire editors and why fanfic writers contact beta-readers.

I get that you are butthurt because I criticized StarCraft for being badly written. You need to get over it and recognize that video games generally have crappy stories and video game writers are mostly untalented, unskilled hacks. Even video games with generally decent writing may have extreme flaws in other areas, especially if multiple writers were involved and the writers invoke complex concepts they have no real understanding of.

[ragnarok]

If that is supposed to intimidate me, it does not. I am a perfectionist and I constantly doubt myself because of that. I have noticed inconsistencies in my own work before and I have constantly made minor edits to past work for the sake of consistency or avoiding writing myself into a corner.

I doubt anyone can write a work of fiction without inconsistencies. That's why publishers hire editors and why fanfic writers contact beta-readers.

I get that you are butthurt because I criticized StarCraft for being badly written. You need to get over it and recognize that video games generally have crappy stories and video game writers are mostly untalented, unskilled hacks. Even video games with generally decent writing may have extreme flaws in other areas, especially if multiple writers were involved and the writers invoke complex concepts they have no real understanding of.

I wasn't trying to intimidate you, I'm merely saying you'll never achieve a perfect fic goal because there will always be critics. And as for the whole perfectionist mentality, there will be times this backfires on you.

For the whole games have crap stories, that's your view. Me, I mostly accept them for what they are. Though ironically enough, I DID criticize the Doom game a lore more when it came out all the way back in 2016 because I felt you spent the whole 10 hours doing nothing but rip and tear and there was virtually no story AT ALL

[Mislagnissa]

I'm not sure if you can really say that conclusively because what we see and know of the psi-emitter as being a generic terrorism device is limited/filtered through the Terran perspective, and a particular Terran at that (Mengsk). The psi emitter is just an object on its own but it's how the characters perceive it and react to it that makes it an effective plot device beyond just rote narrative utility. Contrast this with the crystals/temple and the psi-disruptor in BW, where those two plot devices serve nothing more to the story beyond their actual utility and how the characters don't really develop beyond merely using/accessing the plot device.



But the Zerg did exactly as you said above in the manual at Chau Sara - and can be surmised to be continuing doing so throughout the start of the Sc campaign. Are you saying that the Zerg/Overmind didn't know what they were doing in their initial forays with the Terrans or purposefully trying to expose themselves by constantly going after leads that could lead to its determinant? Do you think that the Overmind didn't know what it was doing and the consequences of allowing its Zerg to go after those Psi-emitter signals before doing so? Besides, how else is the Overmind going to find its determinant without sending out raiding parties when leads show up and risk Protoss being alerted to them at the same time?

The Zerg are only ever "exposed" once they start incorporating Kerrigan into the Swarm. Before then, it wasn't clear where they were, how strong they were or if they were ever going to make themselves openly and wholly known at all, so they had the advantage of initiative.



These statements don't really gel. I can't tell whether you really consider each race to be equal with the others or not. Sure you can have factional Terran and Protoss alliances but this doesn't resolve the issue that the Terrans as a whole are not equal to the Zerg (or Protoss) as a whole. Also, according to you the Zerg are not equal to the Protoss without the determinant, which makes your claim of them all being "equal" from the start confusing. What happens when the Zerg do get their determinant? Will they be more powerful than the Protoss assuming they were "roughly equal" from the start or will they then only be equal to the Protoss with the determinant as the Overmind intends it to be (which suggests they weren't equal to begin with...)? Will the Terrans become unequal with the Zerg when they get their determinant or even more unequal than initially, given that the Terrans are comparatively weaker than the others from the get-go? Sustaining a status quo that all 3 being viable and "equal" over a lengthy period of time of conflict wouldn't be "realistic" when the 3 aren't really "equal" to begin with.



But they did have this in Sc1.



That's super vague. What do you mean by "local presence"? What metric do you use to gauge such equivalence? Does this factor in actual capability and efficiency of the use of armed forces for each race?



Really? Sc1 could've easily been a "one and done"/ended without continuation. Sure, there was sequel bait but most of the broad plots and themes it setup were hit upon and resolved adequately (whether it was satisfactory is a subjective matter). The manual is just a set up and not necessarily reflecting that it is the status quo forevermore.

At this point, I decided to go with the zerg sent forces to attack Confederate beacons for multiple reasons. 1) the Confederates are trying to lure zerg but are unprepared for the volume that arrives so their forces are lost, 2) prevents the terrans from realizing the zerg are really intelligent, 3) dissuades the terrans from using beacons (they distract zerg psychic detectors), etc

[ragnarok]

At this point, I decided to go with the zerg sent forces to attack Confederate beacons for multiple reasons. 1) the Confederates are trying to lure zerg but are unprepared for the volume that arrives so their forces are lost, 2) prevents the terrans from realizing the zerg are really intelligent, 3) dissuades the terrans from using beacons (they distract zerg psychic detectors), etc

It was said after the SoK discovered the emitters that the Confederacy did this to rid of their enemies, and to look like heroes for killing the zerg. As far as I know, the Confederacy never really saw the zerg as anything but mindless animals.

[Turalyon]

At this point, I decided to go with the zerg sent forces to attack Confederate beacons for multiple reasons. 1) the Confederates are trying to lure zerg but are unprepared for the volume that arrives so their forces are lost, 2) prevents the terrans from realizing the zerg are really intelligent, 3) dissuades the terrans from using beacons (they distract zerg psychic detectors), etc

Number 1 isn't specifically a reason for the Zerg to attack Confederate beacons. Also, "Confederates trying to lure Zerg" is an assumption on Mengsk's part. The audience is led to believe Mengsk's rhetoric in this instance due to his being a voice of reason (at the time) and our knowledge of the Confeds history, but there's the possibility of Mengsk being potentially wrong about this too. Afterall, he also assumed the Zerg were actually created/bred by the Confeds specifically as weapons due to his negative bias against them and we know this is wrong because the audience has privileged information (ie: Zerg history) that he doesn't. It could just be that the Confeds developed the Psi-emitter for some other unspecified reason (which could be more or less nefarious than what Mengsk thought it'd be) because there's inherently a problem with the idea of the Confeds knowingly developed the Psi-emitter especially for attracting Zerg. If they really did know enough about the Zerg to manipulate them wholesale (it would've taken years of study to observe and verify such a fact/effect, for example), they surely would have also known the extent of the threat they possessed to some degree and would've made contingencies against them - they have afterall been the top-dog amongst the Terrans for about a century and no despotic reign can remain that long without being prepared, paranoid and on-guard all the time. As such, that the Confeds were largely unaware and incapable of handling the Zerg (as shown through Duke) suggests the possibility they didn't actually know much about the Zerg as we're led to believe.

I don't really get number 2. Why would Zerg being attracted to and targeting what would essentially be the innately most powerful and dangerous human beings be considered an unintelligent move by the Terrans? From a Terran/human perspective (and being one myself), I'd find that the specificity of the Zerg attraction to enhanced individuals of our species to be very alarming rather than comforting.

Number 3 makes sense but not with Number 1. If the aim for the Terrans is to lure Zerg via beacons and the Zerg become "lured" with the intent of wanting the Terrans to stop "luring" them, the result of the Terrans aim still supersedes the Zergs aim. Also, I thought the idea of Zerg encroachment on the Terrans was supposed to be subtle (as far as what Zerg consider subtlety I suppose) as to avoid direct Protoss contact and to observe them (as stated in the manual). The Zerg are not supposed to be "outright attacking" the Terrans as such in their invasions of the Terran worlds - though the subtlety/ difference of that may be lost when seen from the Terran perspective.

Lastly, of the multiple reasons, you've omitted the supposed fundamental conceit of the Zerg wanting to find a Terran psychic to incorporate into their fold in order to effectively assist their engagements with the Protoss. I'm assuming you still hold that conceit but just didn't mention it since you presumed it was a given? All in all, this still doesn't resolve the issue of assuming all 3 races are "equal" when there's an inherent disparity/unequalness/general weakness of the Terrans when compared to the other two.

[Mislagnissa]

Number 1 isn't specifically a reason for the Zerg to attack Confederate beacons. Also, "Confederates trying to lure Zerg" is an assumption on Mengsk's part. The audience is led to believe Mengsk's rhetoric in this instance due to his being a voice of reason (at the time) and our knowledge of the Confeds history, but there's the possibility of Mengsk being potentially wrong about this too. Afterall, he also assumed the Zerg were actually created/bred by the Confeds specifically as weapons due to his negative bias against them and we know this is wrong because the audience has privileged information (ie: Zerg history) that he doesn't. It could just be that the Confeds developed the Psi-emitter for some other unspecified reason (which could be more or less nefarious than what Mengsk thought it'd be) because there's inherently a problem with the idea of the Confeds knowingly developed the Psi-emitter especially for attracting Zerg. If they really did know enough about the Zerg to manipulate them wholesale (it would've taken years of study to observe and verify such a fact/effect, for example), they surely would have also known the extent of the threat they possessed to some degree and would've made contingencies against them - they have afterall been the top-dog amongst the Terrans for about a century and no despotic reign can remain that long without being prepared, paranoid and on-guard all the time. As such, that the Confeds were largely unaware and incapable of handling the Zerg (as shown through Duke) suggests the possibility they didn't actually know much about the Zerg as we're led to believe.

I don't really get number 2. Why would Zerg being attracted to and targeting what would essentially be the innately most powerful and dangerous human beings be considered an unintelligent move by the Terrans? From a Terran/human perspective (and being one myself), I'd find that the specificity of the Zerg attraction to enhanced individuals of our species to be very alarming rather than comforting.

Number 3 makes sense but not with Number 1. If the aim for the Terrans is to lure Zerg via beacons and the Zerg become "lured" with the intent of wanting the Terrans to stop "luring" them, the result of the Terrans aim still supersedes the Zergs aim. Also, I thought the idea of Zerg encroachment on the Terrans was supposed to be subtle (as far as what Zerg consider subtlety I suppose) as to avoid direct Protoss contact and to observe them (as stated in the manual). The Zerg are not supposed to be "outright attacking" the Terrans as such in their invasions of the Terran worlds - though the subtlety/ difference of that may be lost when seen from the Terran perspective.

Lastly, of the multiple reasons, you've omitted the supposed fundamental conceit of the Zerg wanting to find a Terran psychic to incorporate into their fold in order to effectively assist their engagements with the Protoss. I'm assuming you still hold that conceit but just didn't mention it since you presumed it was a given? All in all, this still doesn't resolve the issue of assuming all 3 races are "equal" when there's an inherent disparity/unequalness/general weakness of the Terrans when compared to the other two.

Quite frankly the psi-emitter plot device just does not make sense. It never did. Metzen just added it to force the plot to go in a direction he wanted at the time even though logistics would have prohibited that. I cannot think of a way to make the psi-emitter make sense without ignoring the way it was used in canon.

It does not make sense for the zerg to chase the psi-emitter when they are already looking for psychics elsewhere. After the Confederacy piqued their interest by trying to lure them to frontier worlds with psi-emitters (and their token forces got overwhelmed because they severely underestimated the zerg's numbers), I am quite sure the zerg have figured out what the psi-emitter is and what it does. It makes no sense that they would, as in Speed of Darkness, divert forces from Mar Sara City to an abandoned base with only one confirmed psychic when there would logically be hundreds more in Mar Sara City.

The only explanation I can think of that does not sound absurd, or has holes like you mention, is that the psi-emitter interferes with zerg detection of terran psychics. Essentially, every psychic mind is a bonfire and the psi-emitter is the sun, or every psychic is a person talking at a concert and the emitter is the band. Whatever. As long as the psi-emitter is broadcasting, it drowns out the individual psychics. (Logically this should interfere with all psychic detection, but whatever!)

As you have pointed out, and I have pointed out, there are numerous holes in the backstory of the Battle of Chau Sara. Near as I can tell from the wiki account, it was started by the Confederacy when they lured too many zerg (from somewhere?) with psi-emitters and were overwhelmed. The militia fought the zerg and the Confederacy jammed transmissions to keep the rest of the sector from panicking. This went on for days or weeks. Then the protos arrived and (after an unspecified period of time to ascertain what was going on) glassed the planet (only deep underground bunkers survived), then Tassadar immediately regretted the act and decided (as seen in Revelations) to fight on the surface of Mar Sara and rescue terrans. The Confederacy launched a counter-attack to deal with the aliens, then the Sons of Korhal got involved and started a revolt. In canon this plot thread was severed by Metzen but I see no reason why the Mar Saran Revolt could not have been the overarching plot of the game, especially considering by SC2 it was magically restored to normalcy and Raynor fought oppression then.

The holes come in because: 1) the zerg had to have pulled those numbers from somewhere (they have limited numbers, since they did not immediately streamroll all opposition) and they needed a decent reason to start a war since for whatever reason they decided to subtly infest the terran worlds (protoss patrols? terran aggression? what?), 2) the Confederacy somehow did not arouse suspicion when they effectively quarantined a core world (a penal colony with a population in the millions whose main export was construction materials including wood and "neosteel") for days or weeks (although this is consistent with their other activities like genociding Korhal, infecting the fringe worlds with "cholera", annexing the Kel-Morian Combine, and so forth), 3) the protoss expedition's sudden dramatic change in strategy is poorly explained (without invoking the Ara/Akilae schism, suggesting that Oong, Tassadar, Andraxxus and the other executors were following orders).

What would you suggest to explain... well, anything?

[ragnarok]

The holes come in because: 1) the zerg had to have pulled those numbers from somewhere (they have limited numbers, since they did not immediately streamroll all opposition) and they needed a decent reason to start a war since for whatever reason they decided to subtly infest the terran worlds (protoss patrols? terran aggression? what?), 2) the Confederacy somehow did not arouse suspicion when they effectively quarantined a core world (a penal colony with a population in the millions whose main export was construction materials including wood and "neosteel") for days or weeks (although this is consistent with their other activities like genociding Korhal, infecting the fringe worlds with "cholera", annexing the Kel-Morian Combine, and so forth), 3) the protoss expedition's sudden dramatic change in strategy is poorly explained (without invoking the Ara/Akilae schism, suggesting that Oong, Tassadar, Andraxxus and the other executors were following orders).

What would you suggest to explain... well, anything?

1. The zerg were looking for psychics needed to assimilate into the swarm to help them fight the protoss. But I'm sure it didn't take the Overmind very long to realize unlike the protoss people, the average terran had no psionic abilities, which means finding psychics are rare. It'd therefore be necessary to send large numbers of zerg to terran worlds, and to as many terran worlds as possible, in order to collect the psychics (assuming there's even any on a certain world to collect)

2. I'm not convinced the Confederacy achieved THAT, more like there were a lot of people who simply felt the numbers weren't adding up, but they couldn't put their finger on what was really going on, and then Tarsonis fell and that was the end of the matter. If that's the case it'd be similar to the UNN broadcasts in WoL after the Cutthroat mission, where there were those who suspected Mengsk might have had a hand in the zerg invasion of Tarsonis because the timing seemed a bit too perfect.

3. Which part of the change in strategy? If you're referring to Tarsonis, Tassadar merely felt it was wrong to carry out the Conclave's orders like that. Sure, we know from the manual the protoss weren't exactly happy with the terrans' actions even before the zerg entered the picture, but it's possible Tassadar felt it'd be wrong to classify ALL terrans like that.

[Turalyon]

Quite frankly the psi-emitter plot device just does not make sense. It never did. Metzen just added it to force the plot to go in a direction he wanted at the time even though logistics would have prohibited that. I cannot think of a way to make the psi-emitter make sense without ignoring the way it was used in canon.

The Psi-emitter is relatively simple as a plot device. All it does is broadcast an amplified psionic signal derived from psionic terrans. That's all it does. It is not actually known what the initial Confederate intent/reason behind the development of the device was (an alternate reason could've been that it was a Confederate ploy to attract/draw in latent psionic Terrans into their clutches/Ghost programs) beyond the one that Mengsk ascribes it to be. That is an important distinction to make because the attraction of the Zerg was possibly an unintended/unexpected consequence of the device. I can say this with some (not complete) degree of confidence because the Terrans were largely unaware and taken by surprise with the appearance of the Zerg and have no means of defending themselves against the Zerg despite supposedly knowing so much about them as to create a device specifically targeting Zerg. I think the problem you have is that you conflate the Psi-emitter plot device as being made specifically to attract Zerg on a Doylist/out-of-universe one as the same as the Watsonian/in-universe level when it possibly could not be.


It does not make sense for the zerg to chase the psi-emitter when they are already looking for psychics elsewhere.

Why? It's stated in the manual that the Overmind didn't find it amongst the many other species it had encountered and assimilated on its long travels and was despairing until it discovered the Terrans. That a large psionic presence then makes itself known within this Terran space is too good an opportunity for the Overmind to just pass up.


After the Confederacy piqued their interest by trying to lure them to frontier worlds with psi-emitters (and their token forces got overwhelmed because they severely underestimated the zerg's numbers), I am quite sure the zerg have figured out what the psi-emitter is and what it does.

Yeah, but this is based on Mengsk's assumption that the Confeds were indeed using Psi-emitters on Chau Sara and were specifically attracting Zerg there with them. Like I said, we actually don't know the Confed side of things at the time. The Confeds may have been completely and specifically innocent in regard to using psi emitters to attract Zerg on their worlds. They could've had some other undisclosed purpose. Afterall, the manual states in the Terran history that the Zerg were the second race to be encountered/reported (on Mar Sara, not Chau Sara) and that the Overmind was able to infest several Terran worlds without their knowledge in the Zerg history. This doesn't gel with Mengsk's statement in The Jacobs Installation about seeing Zerg in Confederate pens for at least a year prior to this current flashpoint of events we're seeing. We know that some of Mengsks' statements like the Zerg being created by the Confeds are wrong (since we have privileged information he doesn't), so the manual seems to have a more higher authority than Mengsk's hearsay. Even if Mengsk was correct that the Confeds did actually know about the Zerg and how Psi-emitters are involved in this in some way, how do we know the Confeds were not just testing them as a means to try and control the Zerg? Maybe the Psi emitters were perhaps intended as a rudimentary defensive function. Or, maybe the Confeds were just as oblivious and blind like Duke (their only representative) was. Also, it's not known whether a psi-emitter was what attracted the Overmind to Chau Sara nor whether the Zerg ever found out about psi-emitters.

Now, I realise that I am ignoring the retcons and knowledge gained after the fact to make my point here but it's an important distinction to make.


The holes come in because: 1) the zerg had to have pulled those numbers from somewhere (they have limited numbers, since they did not immediately streamroll all opposition) and they needed a decent reason to start a war since for whatever reason they decided to subtly infest the terran worlds (protoss patrols? terran aggression? what?), 2) the Confederacy somehow did not arouse suspicion when they effectively quarantined a core world (a penal colony with a population in the millions whose main export was construction materials including wood and "neosteel") for days or weeks (although this is consistent with their other activities like genociding Korhal, infecting the fringe worlds with "cholera", annexing the Kel-Morian Combine, and so forth), 3) the protoss expedition's sudden dramatic change in strategy is poorly explained (without invoking the Ara/Akilae schism, suggesting that Oong, Tassadar, Andraxxus and the other executors were following orders).

What would you suggest to explain... well, anything?

I can only base my possible explanations/resolutions of these issues from the perspective of limited knowledge I had at the time - namely this'd be the manual. The Zerg did infest several worlds unbeknownst to the Terrans before the Protoss caught their attention. I'd say that the Zerg numbers weren't that "large" on Chau Sara for the Terrans at large/Confeds to figure anything out (that or they were just blind due to the stuff happening on the fringe because of their infighting), because the Protoss wiped it out before the Terrans/Confeds even knew about the Zerg. They only knew about the Zerg when the Protoss started to encroach on Mar Sara. This covers point 1 and 2. As to point 3, the manual effectively explains this already. Tassadar had a pang of conscience after performing what he felt to be a morally reprehensible thing to do, hence the change in tactics.