How hard is programming?

[sandwich_bird]

I have a couple questions to anyone here that consider himself a programmer. I am trying to do a survey with different people to decide the best way for me to learn programming and HTML (btw is HTML considered programming?). It is important to note though that I am not considering it because I want to become a full-time programmer but more because it is really an important skill to obtain when you are in science(like I am) and because it is something that I just simply always wanted to be able to do. So here it is:

-How long does it take to become a decent programmer?

-Can you become a decent programmer on your own with the help of books and etc or is it much more worth it to learn it in school? Which method do you think is faster?

-What are the most important languages to learn? C++, C# and Java?

-Is microsoft visual programs good programs to write codes? If not, what is the best program to have?(sorry if you don't call this a program, I don't really know the term that is employ for this)

-Apart from knowledge in HTML, what do you need to make web pages?

That should be all for now.

[Josue]

About web, there's a lot! HTML isn't just enough to create a good page like this forums, javascript or adobe flash is needed. Want to know more about it?

AJAX http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajax_%28programming%29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajax_%28programming%29)

Programming can be a lot harder depending on the IDE.

[sandwich_bird]

About web, there's a lot! HTML isn't just enough to create a good page like this forums, javascript or adobe flash is needed. Want to know more about it?

AJAX http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajax_%28programming%29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajax_%28programming%29)

Programming can be a lot harder depending on the IDE. Sounds and look complex :s And I thought learning web coding would be the easy part.

[Xyvik]

Programming is, for all intents and purposes, learning a new language. Some are more complex than others, some follow similar rules as others, but when it comes right down to it you're in for a lot of learning and frustration.

If you don't enjoy, or find it easy, to learn foreign languages in school you will probably find programming to be beyond your reach. I have been struggling with it for the last seven years and cannot even begin to consider myself competent, let alone skilled, at it. But then again I'm more the designer than the programmer, and quite content with that role.

[Blazur]

HTML is a markup language along with CSS (Cascading Style Sheets) and is the basic programming needed for web construction. Along with that comes a wide array of other languages randing from simple to complex, all designed to augment a web page and add dynamics to it.

- JavaScript is client side and is quite commonly used in web programming. You can do some really slick stuff with JavaScript.
- Flash is another tool many web developers use, which brings with it its own programming language (ActionScript) that is very similar to JavaScript.
- There's a varying degree of server-side scripting languages you use for dynamic content and database integration. A few examples are: PHP (open-source, easy to learn/use, quite common), ColdFusion (Adobe product, proprietary, mid range power and easy to learn, rare), ASP and ASP.NET (Microsoft, free on Windows servers, powerful but difficult to learn, split in VBScript, JScript and C#).
- Most people learn PHP, MySQL databases and Apache web servers because they're all open-source and easy to learn.

The nice thing about HTML, CSS and JavaScript is you can view the source code of nearly every webpage to see how they're constructed. That's how many web developers start out, and why nearly anybody can build a website with a willingness to learn. Server-side scripting languages you cannot read the source unless you have access to the physical file.

When it comes to any programming language, it's all a matter of syntax. Once you know the basic semantics and tools you have available to you (variables, arrays, for loops, while loops, hashes, scoping, etc), learning any language is rather simple and just a matter of picking up a book or digging around the web for syntax references.

Do you have any specific questions?

[sandwich_bird]

- JavaScript is client side and is quite commonly used in web programming. You can do some really slick stuff with JavaScript.
- Flash is another tool many web developers use, which brings with it its own programming language (ActionScript) that is very similar to JavaScript.
- There's a varying degree of server-side scripting languages you use for dynamic content and database integration. A few examples are: PHP (open-source, easy to learn/use, quite common), ColdFusion (Adobe product, proprietary, mid range power and easy to learn, rare), ASP and ASP.NET (Microsoft, free on Windows servers, powerful but difficult to learn, split in VBScript, JScript and C#).
- Most people learn PHP, MySQL databases and Apache web servers because they're all open-source and easy to learn.

So basicly l should be able to do pretty much everything on the web with HTML , Javascrip and PHP?

[Josue]

So basicly l should be able to do pretty much everything on the web with HTML , Javascrip and PHP?
Besides of XHTML, javascript and PHP you also need the CSS (Cascading Style Sheets) to make good looking pages. DOM (Document Object Model) knoweldge may also be requiered.
Besides of that, if your page is to be viewed by several web browsers, you must know what makes them special. Mozilla Firefox seems to stick to W3C (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Wide_Web_Consortium) (not WC3 BTW:D) standards, but M$ Internet Explorer not always, what they do sometimes tends to become standard, other times not. So, getting cross browser compatibility is not an easy goal to achieve! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cascading_Style_Sheets#Browser_support)

[Santrega]

Syntax alone isnt the only thing you need to learn. You have to know the whys, and hows in order to do what you want to do. There are a lot of fundamentals such as learning to plan out your program, as well as the development cycle. Many online tutorials omit certain basic things that you need to know, and often I ran into trouble completing a project a tutorial was meant to complete. However, in school they don't leave out vital reasoning and instructions on how to get something done, therefore I consider the school environment much better.

As someone who has had experience learning both ways, I can honestly tell you taking classes is by far superior. Hopefully one day people get better with tutorials, and start to plan out their tutorials in a similar fashion that they would plan out a program.

I've learned Python and VB.Net... I intend to learn java and advanced java as well before I finish my associates degree in computer programming.

[Noise]

-How long does it take to become a decent programmer?
A few years at least

-Can you become a decent programmer on your own with the help of books and etc or is it much more worth it to learn it in school? Which method do you think is faster?
I believe you can, but school will make you a better programmer, though not necessarily faster.

-What are the most important languages to learn? C++, C# and Java?
This is a very subjective question, I think C and any kind of OO language

-Is microsoft visual programs good programs to write codes? If not, what is the best program to have?(sorry if you don't call this a program, I don't really know the term that is employ for this)
There's nothing wrong with MS programs but I use Netbeans and I program C++ (Yes, Netbeans is totally fine for C++).

-Apart from knowledge in HTML, what do you need to make web pages?
Not my area

[PhanttoM]

I have been struggling with it for the last seven years and cannot even begin to consider myself competent, let alone skilled, at it. But then again I'm more the designer than the programmer, and quite content with that role.

Same story for me - And with a program like Dreamweaver, I hardly consider HTML and CSS as "programming", since one can work more designer orientated.

Considering what I'm currently using my website for, HTML and CSS is really all I need to know. I could even do it animated in Flash, since that also allows to work as a designer.
Controling the animation/site through actionscript is the problem for me, since that is really 'programming'. :confused:

[EvilGenius]

Syntax alone isnt the only thing you need to learn. You have to know the whys, and hows in order to do what you want to do. There are a lot of fundamentals such as learning to plan out your program, as well as the development cycle. Many online tutorials omit certain basic things that you need to know, and often I ran into trouble completing a project a tutorial was meant to complete. However, in school they don't leave out vital reasoning and instructions on how to get something done, therefore I consider the school environment much better.

As someone who has had experience learning both ways, I can honestly tell you taking classes is by far superior. Hopefully one day people get better with tutorials, and start to plan out their tutorials in a similar fashion that they would plan out a program.

I've learned Python and VB.Net... I intend to learn java and advanced java as well before I finish my associates degree in computer programming.

I've learned VB.Net and C#, Java is pretty much the same thing as C# right?

[RainbowToeSocks]

I took programming in school (HTML, CSS, Java, C++, Action Script, etc etc etc) for two years... I was amazing at it... but all I truely took away from those courses is that I never want to do it ever again
LOL

I HATE IT
fucking codes
fucking "oh i missed a period somewhere"
fucking ahadrhdsfkdsafdsa

yeah

[Spartan]

Programming is really not that hard to pick up, in my opinion. I never took any classes, bought any books, nor had anyone teach me individually. I was all self-taught from the age-old method of messing with a script and seeing what it does, and referring to glossaries online. Though it took me a few years to get to my skill level today, that is only because I worked at my own pace purely as a hobby. I now know fluently HMTL/CSS/JS/PHP/MySQL; mainly the web development languages.

If you're in it for the money, then you better pick up the pace. Yes, a lot of money can be made in the web industry, but as of recently the room for entering market is getting smaller as older companies grow bigger and expand their reach. Currently I make about a thousand dollars a month from my single StarCraft site alone, which is http://vilegaming.com

[sandwich_bird]

If you're in it for the money, then you better pick up the pace. Yes, a lot of money can be made in the web industry, but as of recently the room for entering market is getting smaller as older companies grow bigger and expand their reach. Currently I make about a thousand dollars a month from my single StarCraft site alone, which is http://vilegaming.com Wow a thousand really? That's pretty nice. I can only imagine the profit you can make out of a website giving even more services. Tbh I kinda want to go in this direction for the money. Of course, like I said in my first post, I'm also interested in what I could do with the skills in my domain (science or more specifically biochemistry) but I want to learn web programming more for the money than anything else. I mean nowadays, what's the "easiest" and safest way to make money? I believe the answer lies on the internet.

[Santrega]

I've learned VB.Net and C#, Java is pretty much the same thing as C# right?

I believe java is equal to C or C++. C# is a little different... Also the fact that java is a cross platform language, its clearly the best.

It all has to do with the java compiler and interpreter (Java uses both so that it can work on any OS). Anyway, C# is a simpler version of C/C++, and in my opinion is closer to VB.NET than anything.

In my opinion, for a career in programming, java is probably the biggest language right now because of it being cross-platform. Maybe not the biggest yet, but at the very least the fastest growing, and there are a lot of job opportunities out there for a java programmer.

[Noise]

Java is far closer to C# than to C

[Santrega]

Java is far closer to C# than to C

Actually thats besides the point. Java is not really at all like any other language because it does things those languages cant. C# C C++ aren't cross-platform languages like Java is. The syntax of java is more like C++, but both C#/Java are based off of C++, and they work in some way a more similar fashion than Java and C++.

Still, I want to stress that Java is far different than the other languages, period. One is not like the other unless you are talking strictly syntax, and in my opinion, and in many articles, people will say Looking at java and C++ will show they are almost identical. Syntax is usually what someone means when they talk about the likeness of languages. Java is more like C++ than C# in syntax, because it more closely uses the C++ syntax.

[Noise]

Apart from portability, Java and C# share the most similarities: automatic garbage collection, true object oriented programming and type safety.

[Santrega]

Apart from portability, Java and C# share the most similarities: automatic garbage collection, true object oriented programming and type safety.

If he was talking about in terms of what they do, then fine. If he meant in terms of syntax, Java is closer to C++ then C#.

I was never arguing that they were more alike in any way other than syntax, as I assumed that's what he meant.

[EvilGenius]

If he was talking about in terms of what they do, then fine. If he meant in terms of syntax, Java is closer to C++ then C#.

I was never arguing that they were more alike in any way other than syntax, as I assumed that's what he meant.

I'm just wondering if I could easily transition from C# to Java - The reason i thought they were similar is that my Computer Science teacher modified a Java book to teach us C#.

[Santrega]

I'm just wondering if I could easily transition from C# to Java - The reason i thought they were similar is that my Computer Science teacher modified a Java book to teach us C#.

Well, i dont know if you can easily transition, but knowing C# will definitely help. As Noise as said, they allow you to do a lot of the same things, and java and C# are both based off of C++.

I think it would definitely be easier than if say you knew only VB.net. I think if you knew C++ it would provide a much easier transition to C# and to java, but I'm sure C# will help. I think you'll have an easier time learning java than I will, lets say that. Python/Vb.net will not give me much...

[Spartan]

Wow a thousand really? That's pretty nice. I can only imagine the profit you can make out of a website giving even more services. Tbh I kinda want to go in this direction for the money. Of course, like I said in my first post, I'm also interested in what I could do with the skills in my domain (science or more specifically biochemistry) but I want to learn web programming more for the money than anything else. I mean nowadays, what's the "easiest" and safest way to make money? I believe the answer lies on the internet.
Yea, there's lots of room for profits if you target the right niche. My revenues have grown about 25-50% each month for the past few months. I'm currently working on a new project (open beta test should be out within a few days) that should increase my revenues by 200-300% at the very least.