Old School Analysis: The Overmind really WAS trying to destroy the protoss

[Mislagnissa]

The retcon in SC2 that the Overmind was trying to destroy the protoss received criticism because it contradicted the statement in SC1 that the Overmind wanted to assimilate the protoss to become perfect. The problem is that the latter was itself a retcon.

In the original manual, the zerg backstory tells us that:

The zerg assimilated species with useful genes and simply devoured/exterminated those without
When the Overmind learned of the protoss it realized they were destined to fight each other... as you do
The zerg consumed countless worlds searching for a “determinant” that could provide parity because the protoss had incredible reality-warping psychic power and technology
The xel’naga believed that the zerg achieved perfection from the moment they assimilated the behemoths, but the zerg themselves did not appear to share this belief since they went on to consume their creators and every world on their path to Aiur.


In the SC1 campaign, which has several departures from the set up given by the manual that I will not go into here, the Overmind states that their intent was to assimilate the protoss and become perfect. However, nowhere does the manual state that the zerg intended to assimilate the protoss or achieve perfection. It is easy enough to assume that they would assimilate the protoss after defeating them or endlessly chase an idealized perfection, but the primary goal was to evolve and defeat the protoss because they were an existential threat. If the determinant already provided what they would have gotten from the protoss then the zerg could simply exterminate the protoss wholesale, as implied by the first point I listed.

In the BW campaign, we are introduced to Duran. Duran explains that he created protoss/zerg hybrids, much to Zeratul’s horror. From the context we are meant to assume that creating hybrids was not the goal of the zerg, even though this contradicts their stated motive in the SC1 campaign. However, this is partially consistent with the manual’s backstory. While the spiel about hybrids and cycles comes out of left field, implying the zerg’s primary directive was destroy the threat the protoss represented and not create hybrids is consistent with the manual.

In SC2, we are explicitly told or implied the following:

The zerg wanted to destroy the protoss
Abathur states that perfection is unattainable, but a sufficient ideal to pursue
Kerry had purity of form, as shown when she became xel’naga despite being human/zerg rather than protoss/zerg


If you ignore the various other retcons like Amon controlling the Overmind or “purity of form” becoming a metaphysical constant, these three points in isolation are consistent with the manual but not consistent with the SC1 campaign. Since the zerg would have gained "purity of form" from the terrans, then they would not need to assimilate the protoss and would be free to devour and exterminate them.

This is important for old school zerg fans who want to write narratives about the old school zerg (such as Gradius' Origins campaign or ToxicDefiler's Enumerate design document), since it drastically recasts the zerg's long-term motivations and would result in very different outcomes. I, for one, used to prefer the "assimilate protoss to become perfect" version but now I have decided I prefer the "destroy the protoss as existential threat version." Not only because it is more consistent with the manual (and miraculously with BW and SC2), but because it makes more sense on its own merits. The entire point of the xel'naga's backstory (beyond setting up the conflict) was to show the subjectivity of perfection and the folly of perfectionism. I have difficulty seeing how the zerg would become perfect after assimilating the protoss when they haven't even conquered the Milky Way yet, much less explored other galaxies.

So in conclusion, the zerg’s stated motives have remained consistent throughout the games with the notable exception of SC1’s campaign stating that they sought to assimilate the protoss to achieve perfection, which is not supported by the manual or the following campaigns. Although the games are full of internal inconsistencies and pointless retcons, BW and SC2 did manage to keep the zerg's motives consistent with that given in the manual... for the all the good it did.

I can only assume that the writers changed their minds at the last minute during development of SC1 and then reversed their decision after it was too late, leaving this glaring inconsistency. That’s the least of the series’ problems, but it does mitigate the zerg’s decay over the series by a very tiny bit. Sure, they lost any will of their own to become the puppets of Kerry and Amon, but at least the motivations they couldn’t act on remained consistent. Considering Blizzard’s general incompetence in writing and narrative consistency, we should proud that they were consistent and self-correcting for a plot point as minor and forgettable as that.

Feel free to share your thoughts, advice, critique and so forth.

EDIT: I have been informed that there are a few mistakes in my analysis, and I concede that. My overall conclusion, however, remains the same.

The zerg have the long-term goal of becoming the perfect life-form by assimilating the strongest species in the universe, an expansion of their pre-Overmind goal of staying at the top of the proverbial food-chain, as stated in the manual. This goal is conditional and indefinite, since the universe is a big place. Personally, I don't believe the zerg will be "perfect" until they achieve omnipotence or something.

The zerg have the short-term goal of surviving their inevitable apocalyptic conflict with the protoss. While the SC1 campaign has the Overmind saying they will become perfect once they assimilate the protoss, this misunderstands the manual since the protoss are only the strongest species in the Milky Way galaxy and not the entire universe. In the purely literal sense, this will involve destroying the protoss: their armed forces must be crushed, any useful traits must be assimilated, and any survivors must be exterminated, with priority in that order.

[KaiserStratosTygo]

The only way I'd be okay with the "Destroy the protoss" narrative if it became impossible for the Zerg to assimilate the Protoss without teetering towards their own extinction.

[Gradius]

1. Once again, a game does not "retcon" itself. The SC1 manual and SC1 are the same game. It would be called a contradiction or an inconsistency, not a "retcon". That's abuse/misuse of the word.
2. Nowhere does it state that the Xel'Naga thought the Zerg were perfect. It says they achieved their "goal", which could just as easily (and more likely) be referring to their focus on making the zerg have purity of essence as stated earlier in the manual.
3. Hybrids aren't the goal of the zerg, assimilating the protoss was. Assimilating the protoss means they can be spawned en-masse from hatcheries unlike hybrids.
4. The manual explains that the zerg have purity of essence and protoss have purity of form, which implies the Overmind wants to merge the two just like the Xel'Naga.
5. The Overmind's bio says "it exists to become the perfect life-form by assimilating the strongest species in the universe". The protoss are the strongest species in the universe according to it, therefore the Overmind wants to assimilate them. It says so right there and isn't a "retcon" of any sort.
6. The Overmind wanting to destroy the protoss has problems. You're removing the Overmind's whole reason it engaged in conflict and kicked off the events of StarCraft. It attacked the protoss because it wanted to become perfect and believes it exists to assimilate new species, not "just cuz". Attacking the protoss is an action, not a motivation. You've essentially axed the Overmind's whole background and character. The main thing that made him slightly better than a 2d cartoon villain was that his motivation boiled down to more than "kill everyone else for no reason". He at least had a thought process that went beyond that.

[Turalyon]

Gradius beat me to it. I'm still going to elaborate on some of it though. :p


In the SC1 campaign, which has several departures from the set up given by the manual that I will not go into here, the Overmind states that their intent was to assimilate the protoss and become perfect. However, nowhere does the manual state that the zerg intended to assimilate the protoss or achieve perfection.

You've got to be kidding me! The raison d'être of any of the Overmind/Zergs actions is to assimilate stronger species into their collective and that is established right at the beginning of the Zerg history and implicitly informs all their actions thereafter. It shouldn't need to be stated ad infinitum that the Zerg intended to assimilate the Protoss to achieve perfection because one should already fathom that from what they read just earlier before. Were you expecting the short history to constantly brow-beat this idea in case you forgot or something? Seriously, this is an argument from ignorance akin to how people justified back then in WoL that the Overmind was always a slave because it never said it wasn't one in the first place.


It is easy enough to assume that they would assimilate the protoss after defeating them or endlessly chase an idealized perfection, but the primary goal was to evolve and defeat the protoss because they were an existential threat. If the determinant already provided what they would have gotten from the protoss then the zerg could simply exterminate the protoss wholesale, as implied by the first point I listed.

The Zerg do not want the Protoss for their psionics, they want their purity of form. As the Zerg history describes, the Xel'Naga wanted to steer the evolution of a species to the pinnacle of physical perfection and it found this quality in the Protoss. The Zerg are all about acquiring physical perfection, so discovering from the Xel'naga that there was a race that they deemed as physically perfect would've been very enticing to them.

Until Sc2 said this was so, it was not stated that the psionics are the specific cause of this "physical perfection" or rather, is the "physical perfection" itself. As such, one cannot claim with any significant confidence that the Zerg only wanted the Protoss for their psionics back then.


Duran explains that he created protoss/zerg hybrids, much to Zeratul’s horror. From the context we are meant to assume that creating hybrids was not the goal of the zerg, even though this contradicts their stated motive in the SC1 campaign.

That's a non-sequitur assumption you're making. How does Zeratul's horrified reaction in any way make one think that the goal of the Zerg was to not hybridise (via assimilation and/or infestation) with the Protoss? Are you taking his exclamation of "I've never seen a creature like this before" as evidence that Protoss and Zerg could never be hybridised, like how people say that Protoss can't be infested/assimilated by Zerg just because they've never seen it happen before? Shame on you. :p


If you ignore the various other retcons like Amon controlling the Overmind or “purity of form” becoming a metaphysical constant, these three points in isolation are consistent with the manual but not consistent with the SC1 campaign. Since the zerg would have gained "purity of form" from the terrans, then they would not need to assimilate the protoss and would be free to devour and exterminate them.

You're line of reasoning would make sense were it not for the fact that you're wrong about it being consistent with the Sc1 manual (see first reply in this post) and that purity of form actually meaning "great psionic potential" is a post-Sc1 retcon (it's never stated that the Zerg want the Protoss for their psionics nor that purity of form is specifically about psionics so you can't make assertions).


The entire point of the xel'naga's backstory (beyond setting up the conflict) was to show the subjectivity of perfection and the folly of perfectionism. I have difficulty seeing how the zerg would become perfect after assimilating the protoss when they haven't even conquered the Milky Way yet, much less explored other galaxies.

That's the thing, the Overmind is a successful product/outcome of the Xel'Naga's goals and represents the ongoing "sins of the father". It met their expectations in ways they didn't foresee and it was continuing their legacy of pursuing an ideal. And like its predecessors, it's hubris is what led to it's eventual downfall. I think it's quite poetic if I do say so myself.


I can only assume that the writers changed their minds at the last minute during development of SC1 and then reversed their decision after it was too late, leaving this glaring inconsistency.

Dunno about it being "glaring" when the inconsistency you note is actually just due to a false assumption that the Zerg did not want to assimilate Protoss because it never stated it wanted to.

[Mislagnissa]

The only way I'd be okay with the "Destroy the protoss" narrative if it became impossible for the Zerg to assimilate the Protoss without teetering towards their own extinction.I said the zerg's primary goal was to survive the inevitable apocalyptic conflict with the protoss. If they have opportunity and cause to assimilate the protoss, they could do so once they have won the war.

Or to put it another way, as Gradius reminded me below, the long-term goal of the Overmind is to chase perfection (a conditional and indefinite goal) whereas the short-term goal (relatively speaking) is to survive the inevitable apocalyptic conflict with the protoss.


1. Once again, a game does not "retcon" itself. The SC1 manual and SC1 are the same game. It would be called a contradiction or an inconsistency, not a "retcon". That's abuse/misuse of the word.Alright, contradiction or inconsistency. Got it.

2. Nowhere does it state that the Xel'Naga thought the Zerg were perfect. It says they achieved their "goal", which could just as easily (and more likely) be referring to their focus on making the zerg have purity of essence as stated earlier in the manual.Alright, I concede I was mistaken. We still have no idea what the xel'naga's ideal would have actually looked like. As I explain below, it was arbitrary and subjective.

3. Hybrids aren't the goal of the zerg, assimilating the protoss was. Assimilating the protoss means they can be spawned en-masse from hatcheries unlike hybrids.Logically speaking, there is no difference between hybrids and assimilated protoss beyond whether they can spawn from a larva or not. I certainly cannot think of a difference that doesn't involve metaphysical bullshit and custom campaigns have no problem depicting zerg assimilating hybrids. Before you argue that point, remember that Blizzard writers do not understand logic and constantly contradict themselves.

4. The manual explains that the zerg have purity of essence and protoss have purity of form, which implies the Overmind wants to merge the two just like the Xel'Naga.No, it does not. I may have been mistaken about the cause of the xel'naga's celebrations, but I definitely know that part specifically comes from the game script which deviates from the manual plot points.

The xel'naga's goal, as explained in the manual, is that they were "Driven to perfect their science of proto-genetic evolution" and thus "laboured to create a creature that would be defined by a distinct purity of form." When that experiment failed, they "dismissed their tenets of physical form and focused chiefly on the pursuit of a distinct purity of essence." The idea that the two types of purity are complementary or metaphysical constants originates from the SC1 game script and the SC2 retcons. In the SC1 manual, these are clearly written and intended as subjective qualities arbitrary defined by the xel'naga.


5. The Overmind's bio says "it exists to become the perfect life-form by assimilating the strongest species in the universe". The protoss are the strongest species in the universe according to it, therefore the Overmind wants to assimilate them. It says so right there and isn't a "retcon" of any sort.Alright, I concede that striving for perfection is the zerg's long-term goal. That doesn't change the fact that said goal is conditional and indefinite. The universe is nigh-infinite, so there are nigh-infinite "strongest species" that the zerg need to assimilate before they can become "the perfect life-form."

You are right to draw the conclusion that the Overmind would therefore seek to assimilate the protoss, but that would be a secondary goal to surviving and winning the apocalypse conflict with the protoss. Furthermore, if humans were functionally equivalent to the protoss then the Overmind might not need to assimilate them; not likely (considering that human psychics supposedly only give the zerg's existing forces parity rather than emulating the protoss), but not impossible.


6. The Overmind wanting to destroy the protoss has problems. You're removing the Overmind's whole reason it engaged in conflict and kicked off the events of StarCraft. It attacked the protoss because it wanted to become perfect and believes it exists to assimilate new species, not "just cuz". Attacking the protoss is an action, not a motivation. You've essentially axed the Overmind's whole background and character. The main thing that made him slightly better than a 2d cartoon villain was that his motivation boiled down to more than "kill everyone else for no reason". He at least had a thought process that went beyond that.I concede that I made a few minor mistakes, but you misunderstand me. I don't disagree with what you said.

I didn't say that the Overmind's primary goal was specifically to destroy the protoss. Its primary goal at the time was to survive (and preferably win) the inevitable apocalyptic conflict with the protoss, but after that was fulfilled it would certainly try to assimilate them as part of its long-term goal.


Gradius beat me to it. I'm still going to elaborate on some of it though. :pThis is all a misunderstanding. I made a few mistakes that undermined my overall point but I don't fundamentally disagree with you guys.


You've got to be kidding me! The raison d'être of any of the Overmind/Zergs actions is to assimilate stronger species into their collective and that is established right at the beginning of the Zerg history and implicitly informs all their actions thereafter. It shouldn't need to be stated ad infinitum that the Zerg intended to assimilate the Protoss to achieve perfection because one should already fathom that from what they read just earlier before. Were you expecting the short history to constantly brow-beat this idea in case you forgot or something? Seriously, this is an argument from ignorance akin to how people justified back then in WoL that the Overmind was always a slave because it never said it wasn't one in the first place.Again, this is all a misunderstanding. The long-term goal of the Overmind is to chase perfection (a conditional and indefinite goal) and the short-term goal is to survive the inevitable apocalyptic conflict with the protoss. It is reasonable to assume the zerg will attempt to assimilate the protoss as part of the long-term goal once the short-term goal is accomplished. It is unlikely but not impossible that human psychics will render the protoss superfluous a la that ridiculous fiery angel Kerry.


The Zerg do not want the Protoss for their psionics, they want their purity of form. As the Zerg history describes, the Xel'Naga wanted to steer the evolution of a species to the pinnacle of physical perfection and it found this quality in the Protoss. The Zerg are all about acquiring physical perfection, so discovering from the Xel'naga that there was a race that they deemed as physically perfect would've been very enticing to them.

Until Sc2 said this was so, it was not stated that the psionics are the specific cause of this "physical perfection" or rather, is the "physical perfection" itself. As such, one cannot claim with any significant confidence that the Zerg only wanted the Protoss for their psionics back then.The purity of form is an subjective quality arbitrarily defined by the xel'naga. I for one don't see how the protoss are physically perfect, considering all the inconsistencies and retcons regarding their biology. I do agree that if the protoss have anything of value to the zerg (ignoring all the posturing about purity of form or whatever) then the zerg will try to assimilate them.


That's a non-sequitur assumption you're making. How does Zeratul's horrified reaction in any way make one think that the goal of the Zerg was to not hybridise (via assimilation and/or infestation) with the Protoss? Are you taking his exclamation of "I've never seen a creature like this before" as evidence that Protoss and Zerg could never be hybridised, like how people say that Protoss can't be infested/assimilated by Zerg just because they've never seen it happen before? Shame on you. :pActually, I made that assumption because Zeratul never once made the comparison between the Overmind's goal and Duran's goals... even though the fans did and made wild theories about how Duran was the Overmind's backup plan or something (even though this didn't explain why Zeratul did not draw the same reasonable conclusions). That led me to believe that Metzen simply forgot (as he does), since the zerg wanting to assimilate the protoss is never mentioned again and SC2 includes various retcons about protoss being impossible to assimilate. From a realistic perspective, no sane person would make the anal-retentive distinction between hybrids and assimilated protoss, especially not the point where they never think to compare the two. The only person I can think of who would make that distinction is, I don't know, a zerg? Even then, a zerg would just label the "hybrids" as artificial, alien and inferior attempts at aping assimilation.


You're line of reasoning would make sense were it not for the fact that you're wrong about it being consistent with the Sc1 manual (see first reply in this post) and that purity of form actually meaning "great psionic potential" is a post-Sc1 retcon (it's never stated that the Zerg want the Protoss for their psionics nor that purity of form is specifically about psionics so you can't make assertions). Again, misunderstanding and poor explanation on my part. If the protoss have anything of value, ignoring all the posturing about what purity of form refers to (the existence of the archon muddies the distinction between the two versions, since they are made of psychic dwarf star matter or whatever the hell kind of space magic), then the zerg will assimilate it. There is a non-zero chance that they will acquire the equivalent of protoss potential from human psychic mutants, considering that the Overmind concluded that humans would become a powerful psychic race within a few generations. In the unlikely event that proves to be the case, then the protoss would be used as food for their young.


That's the thing, the Overmind is a successful product/outcome of the Xel'Naga's goals and represents the ongoing "sins of the father". It met their expectations in ways they didn't foresee and it was continuing their legacy of pursuing an ideal. And like its predecessors, it's hubris is what led to it's eventual downfall. I think it's quite poetic if I do say so myself.I agree that it is poetic, but I still find it a bit silly the Overmind wouldn't ever realize perfection was a moving target if an idiot savant like Abathur was able to realize that. Abathur was designed to contain and apply the zerg's knowledge of protogenetics pilfered and refined from the xel'naga, so he shouldn't even be capable of things like introspection and forethought because that is the brain bugs' job.

Even in EP3 the protoss make a speech about how the zerg will go on to consume the universe if Aiur falls to them. If the zerg became perfect, then they wouldn't need to do that. In the words of Sister Miriam Godwinson, "Some would ask, how could a perfect God create a universe filled with so much that is evil. They have missed a greater conundrum: why would a perfect God create a universe at all?"


Dunno about it being "glaring" when the inconsistency you note is actually just due to a false assumption that the Zerg did not want to assimilate Protoss because it never stated it wanted to.Again, a misunderstanding. The zerg's long-term goal is to become perfect by assimilating the strongest species in the universe, a fancy-shmancy way of staying at the top of the proverbial food-chain as they've always done, but their short-term goal in the milky way galaxy was to survive the inevitable apocalyptic conflict with the protoss.

[Mislagnissa]

This is my consolidated reply to all the points you guys raised. Thank you for the criticism as it really helped me to refine my analysis. Yes, I concede I made a few mistakes but my overall point remains the same and is now improved by your critique. I edited the first post to reflect this and quoted it below.


EDIT: I have been informed that there are a few mistakes in my analysis, and I concede that. My overall conclusion, however, remains the same.

The zerg have the long-term goal of becoming the perfect life-form by assimilating the strongest species in the universe, an expansion of their pre-Overmind goal of staying at the top of the proverbial food-chain, as stated in the manual. This goal is conditional and indefinite, since the universe is a big place. Personally, I don't believe the zerg will be "perfect" until they achieve omnipotence or something.

The zerg have the short-term goal of surviving their inevitable apocalyptic conflict with the protoss. While the SC1 campaign has the Overmind saying they will become perfect once they assimilate the protoss, this misunderstands the manual since the protoss are only the strongest species in the Milky Way galaxy and not the entire universe. In the purely literal sense, this will involve destroying the protoss: their armed forces must be crushed, any useful traits must be assimilated, and any survivors must be exterminated, with priority in that order.

[sandwich_bird]

My take on all this sprinkled with a bit of light fanon leading to yet another idea I had:

The Xel Naga were trying to make the perfect life-form. The original school of thought was that such a life form should be pure in form. What this can be interpreted as is a being that, at maturation, possess the biological abilities to be on top of any environment without the use of technology. After messing with the Protoss for a while, we can assume that a new school of thought emerged in which the perfect life-form should instead be pure of essence. The reason was that it is elementary that being good at some things means being bad at other things and so, the perfect life-form should be able to change at will to be able to be on top of any environment. So, after many debates, the Protoss were abandoned and the XN worked on the Zerg. The Protoss never attained purity of form because it's impossible. They're strong beings but they aren't the most powerful thing in the universe.

Now, what this would mean, is that the Zerg would already be the perfect life-form according to the 2nd school of thought. Assimilating the Protoss would bring absolutely nothing. In fact, the Zerg already possess the mean to create Protoss because they are masters of genetic engineering AND because they possess everything the XN know. So the current plot-line doesn't make much sense to me. Neither are the talks about merging both purity of essence with purity of form.

So, if the zerg's goal has to be the assimilation of the Protoss then it needs to be for something other than getting their biological data. I'd propose instead that the zerg should want to assimilate the Protoss minds (and not bodies) for their psi-mastery but maybe not in the way that you'd expect... The zerg can change themselves to fit any environment but, once they are mutated, they can't easily change back into something else. This is a problem as it would mean that they aren't necessarily as perfect as they could be. No amount of genetic engineering can produce a being that can change itself in a flash to be adapted to any situation. But, there exist a power in that universe that could do this and that power is magi... huh I mean psi! By becoming pure psi energy itself, protoss that become Archons are much closer to the "true" purity of essence than the zerg could ever hope to be (which would be ironic for the XN since they were supposed to be failures..). And so, the overmind wants to gain this power from the Protoss. But the thing is, he can't simply raid a library, he needs the minds of psi masters to truly understand the process. He needs to read the biological data of a living master basically.

This whole endeavor seems impossible considering the technological might of the protoss. But, by chance, the overmind stumble upon the Terran. Some of these Terrans have low degree of mastery of the psi powers. That's very interesting for the overmind because never before did he had the chance to dissect a live psi wielder. Psi creatures? Sure, but actual wielders? Nope! What is even better is that the Terrans are relatively weak. So, the overmind attack the Terran in search of a good candidate to understand psi mastery. As luck would have it, he finds Kerrigan, the strongest psi wielder the Terran have ever produced. He infest her and makes her an agent, and empower her, all in the hope of learning more about psi. Then, finally, he makes a breakthrough discovery when Zeratul slays Zasz. He learns of the void and that another kind of pure being can exist: dark archons. Dark archons are being of pure void energy and his goal should have been achieved.. but he now realizes that he was wrong. The purest being is not an archon or a dark archon but the fusion of the 2. He still can't make archons though as he does not yet understand psi fully. But, with Aiur, the center of psi knowledge, now known to him, he can fulfill this new goal. And so, he abandons his pet project Kerrigan and go to Aiur.

[Mislagnissa]

Well said Sandy. The zerg seeking to replicate archons figured into my speculations for some time, but the zerg seeking a twilight archon as you suggest never occurred to me.

Edit: Although the context of your explanation is an ad hoc rationalization for Metzen's idiot plot. Key events of SC1 contradict the manual for no apparent reason. I thought I went over that numerous times.

EDIT: I always did wonder why the Overmind didn't clone protoss or other species from the xel'naga records. The records might have been missing sufficient info to make them from scratch or been millions of years out of date, but you would expect the Overmind to create SC2 swarm queens and hybrids using the old protoss data.

[Gradius]

While the SC1 campaign has the Overmind saying they will become perfect once they assimilate the protoss, this misunderstands the manual since the protoss are only the strongest species in the Milky Way galaxy and not the entire universe.
Still disagree. It never says anywhere that he thinks becoming perfect will make him the strongest. He wants to both become perfect (after discovering Xel'Naga memories) and assimilate the strongest species (the original zerg motive). Assimilating the protoss accomplishes both. He'll assimilate their purity of form and other strong traits they have. They're the gold standard, but of course he'll still come after other species like humanity to assimilate other strong or useful traits.


In the purely literal sense, this will involve destroying the protoss: their armed forces must be crushed, any useful traits must be assimilated, and any survivors must be exterminated, with priority in that order.
Where is this order and priority list from? His goal is to assimilate them like it says in the manual but obviously he has to destroy their military to do so.

[Turalyon]

Again, this is all a misunderstanding. The long-term goal of the Overmind is to chase perfection (a conditional and indefinite goal) and the short-term goal is to survive the inevitable apocalyptic conflict with the protoss. It is reasonable to assume the zerg will attempt to assimilate the protoss as part of the long-term goal once the short-term goal is accomplished. It is unlikely but not impossible that human psychics will render the protoss superfluous a la that ridiculous fiery angel Kerry.

As Grad has alluded to in his reply, you're confusing the priorities of the Overmind's motivations for its actions. The long-term goal you listed above is its primary goal, not a secondary one. The only reason the Overmind is even going to the Protoss is to assimilate them, not just to fight them.

Interpreting the "conflict with the Protoss" as being its "top priority" makes no contextual sense... unless you factor the primacy that the Overmind is only doing anything because it all somehow leads to its ideal of perfection. In other words, the conflict with the Protoss is a means to an end and is meaningless on its own.

Assimilating human psychics will not render the goal of assimilating Protoss as "looking for psionics" is secondary to its goal of assimilating ideal physical lifeforms - which the Protoss have been described as seemingly having.


The purity of form is an subjective quality arbitrarily defined by the xel'naga. I for one don't see how the protoss are physically perfect, considering all the inconsistencies and retcons regarding their biology. I do agree that if the protoss have anything of value to the zerg (ignoring all the posturing about purity of form or whatever) then the zerg will try to assimilate them.

I could go into full blown relativism and say everything you hold as objective truth is an arbitrarily defined subjective quality, but I won't. Suffice to say, the concept of purity of form is defined well enough in the manual as an ideal lifeform based on physical traits. It doesn't matter what you, I or others see it as but the Xel'Naga had their set of parameters for what they deemed as ideal, and the Protoss seemed to fit their concept/ideal.


Actually, I made that assumption because Zeratul never once made the comparison between the Overmind's goal and Duran's goals...

My refutation stands. It's still an erroneous assumption to make/ an argument from ignorance. Just because Zeratul didn't overtly make the comparison doesn't mean he forgot/could not or would not do so. One could also easily interpret the lack of overt mention as that we, the audience, know that Zeratul knows the possible link and that Zeratul, too, knows this but just deigned to not voice the obvious.


That led me to believe that Metzen simply forgot (as he does), since the zerg wanting to assimilate the protoss is never mentioned again and SC2 includes various retcons about protoss being impossible to assimilate.

Watch that confirmation bias of yours. You have the foregone conclusion in your mind that everything Metzen has done will always be wrong and then find "evidence" to prove that notion. It really undermines your claims of "objectivity".


If the protoss have anything of value...

There was never a question of "if" the Protoss had anything of value. They always had value since the Overmind had predetermined they had value based off the information it had garnered from the Xel'Naga.


I agree that it is poetic, but I still find it a bit silly the Overmind wouldn't ever realize perfection was a moving target if an idiot savant like Abathur was able to realize that. Abathur was designed to contain and apply the zerg's knowledge of protogenetics pilfered and refined from the xel'naga, so he shouldn't even be capable of things like introspection and forethought because that is the brain bugs' job.

Yes but just like Abathur says it is impossible, it doesn't mean it's not worth chasing. We don't know whether or not the Overmind realised it save for the fact that the Overmind was chasing it and never achieved it. It's all open to discussion. Abathur was probably only able to come to that conclusion in retrospect after what had transpired up to the point where he made that statement.


Even in EP3 the protoss make a speech about how the zerg will go on to consume the universe if Aiur falls to them. If the zerg became perfect, then they wouldn't need to do that.

It's all speculation but the thing with ideals is that they are often changeable. For a long time, perfection was assimilating the Protoss. If that's ever achieved, perfection could then be that there maybe other stronger species out there that need to be found and assimilated. This could then just "evolve" into perfection being that there must be only Zerg life. Who knows.



The Protoss never attained purity of form because it's impossible. They're strong beings but they aren't the most powerful thing in the universe.

I dunno. The Xel'Naga took a long time to find the right candidate for their further manipulations until they happened on the Protoss. They had exceedingly high expectations apparently, so the fact they finally settled on the Protoss is quite significant.


In fact, the Zerg already possess the mean to create Protoss because they are masters of genetic engineering AND because they possess everything the XN know. So the current plot-line doesn't make much sense to me. Neither are the talks about merging both purity of essence with purity of form.

Thing is, the Protoss history describes that the Protoss just happened to be the most promising/advanced species the Xel'Naga could derive from all their multiple failed attempts. The Protoss were not a foregone conclusion or what the Xel'Naga specifically set out to create from the onset.


By becoming pure psi energy itself, protoss that become Archons are much closer to the "true" purity of essence than the zerg could ever hope to be (which would be ironic for the XN since they were supposed to be failures..). And so, the overmind wants to gain this power from the Protoss. But the thing is, he can't simply raid a library, he needs the minds of psi masters to truly understand the process. He needs to read the biological data of a living master basically.

Interesting bit of speculation. Can one assume that "pre-discovery by Xel'Naga"/primitive Protoss were able to form Archons from the get go? Wouldn't the Xel'Naga have known about this ability and used this to cultivate their development then?

I'm also not too sure about this haziness of the purities that you're describing though (since it reminds me of the Sc2 retcons of what the purities are). I thought it was pretty clear from the get go: Purity of form is the (arbitrary) distinction devised by the Xel'Naga to denote what they deem as an ideal physical life-form. Purity of essence is the (arbitrary) distinction devised by the Xel'Naga as a life-form that retains its fundamental/original aspects despite undergoing massive changes of all kinds.

[sandwich_bird]

Well said Sandy. The zerg seeking to replicate archons figured into my speculations for some time, but the zerg seeking a twilight archon as you suggest never occurred to me.

Edit: Although the context of your explanation is an ad hoc rationalization for Metzen's idiot plot.

Thanks, I think archons should have a bigger role in the main story. For one, they're pretty cool and they fit nicely with many other concepts.

Yeah I know you'd prefer changing everything but I like trying to fix what is already there(for SC1 anyways...screw SC2).


I dunno. The Xel'Naga took a long time to find the right candidate for their further manipulations until they happened on the Protoss. They had exceedingly high expectations apparently, so the fact they finally settled on the Protoss is quite significant.

It all depends on what is considered perfect form. If perfect form means being the strongest in combat then something like a brontolith (ultralisk) was probably stronger than a protoss in a 1v1 fight. If perfect form means being adapted to any environment without tech, then the protoss would also fall short behind most flying creatures like the Mantis screamers (mutalisk). It's fair to say that the Protoss had potential but it's also fair to say that they didn't attain perfect "form" in many way that this can be defined.


Thing is, the Protoss history describes that the Protoss just happened to be the most promising/advanced species the Xel'Naga could derive from all their multiple failed attempts. The Protoss were not a foregone conclusion or what the Xel'Naga specifically set out to create from the onset.


Are you saying the XN wouldn't have the biological information of the protoss available when they were attacked by the zerg? They didn't make them from scratch but if they tinkered enough with them, it's fair to assume that they have their entire DNA sequenced. If anything, it'd be easier to believe that the information was destroyed during the attack.


Can one assume that "pre-discovery by Xel'Naga"/primitive Protoss were able to form Archons from the get go? Wouldn't the Xel'Naga have known about this ability and used this to cultivate their development then?

My guess is that fusion wouldn't predate the Khala so I'd say no regarding the primitive Protoss. It's possible that the archons were theorized by the XN though. The XN left when individuality was on the rise among Protoss and it is the XN that empowered Protoss psi. You could almost speculate that their goal was to create archons from the start. Archons can only be created with psi mastery and a strong psi link. With the psi link broken through individuality, the XN might have thought it would take too long to fix the issue and decided to work an a race that is fundamentally always linked.


I thought it was pretty clear from the get go: Purity of form is the (arbitrary) distinction devised by the Xel'Naga to denote what they deem as an ideal physical life-form. Purity of essence is the (arbitrary) distinction devised by the Xel'Naga as a life-form that retains its fundamental/original aspects despite undergoing massive changes of all kinds.

Purity of essence is somewhat clearer but purity of form is really unspecific. " what they deem as an ideal" What is ideal?

[Gradius]

Are you saying the XN wouldn't have the biological information of the protoss available when they were attacked by the zerg? They didn't make them from scratch but if they tinkered enough with them, it's fair to assume that they have their entire DNA sequenced. If anything, it'd be easier to believe that the information was destroyed during the attack.
I think it boils down to the zerg being unable to use computers (and yeah, the information being destroyed during the attack).

[Turalyon]

It all depends on what is considered perfect form. If perfect form means being the strongest in combat then something like a brontolith (ultralisk) was probably stronger than a protoss in a 1v1 fight. If perfect form means being adapted to any environment without tech, then the protoss would also fall short behind most flying creatures like the Mantis screamers (mutalisk). It's fair to say that the Protoss had potential but it's also fair to say that they didn't attain perfect "form" in many way that this can be defined.

" what they deem as an ideal" What is ideal?

The definition of perfection doesn't have to include the capability to do absolutely everything or fly or be the strongest creature ever (strength is relative to one's size afterall). "Perfection" is a subjective ideal, therefore, there's no universal metric for it. We are not told the parameters of what is considered "perfect" for the Xel'Naga save for the fact that they considered the Protoss met their criteria for physical perfection. It's just an established fact you have to accept as part of the backstory.


Are you saying the XN wouldn't have the biological information of the protoss available when they were attacked by the zerg? They didn't make them from scratch but if they tinkered enough with them, it's fair to assume that they have their entire DNA sequenced. If anything, it'd be easier to believe that the information was destroyed during the attack.

Depends on a lot of things, like whether the biological information they have is something that can be used by the Zerg. Unless the Xel'Naga had live samples taken from Aiur with them, there's not much they can do with just information. Perhaps the Protoss don't have DNA/have something different. The Zerg wouldn't have the capability to create the conditions, the ability to speed up time nor the patience the Xel'Naga had to create/evolve the Protoss naturally themselves even if it weren't for the fact that the creation of Protoss was pure luck to begin with. It'd be (relatively) quicker to go find them.


My guess is that fusion wouldn't predate the Khala so I'd say no regarding the primitive Protoss. It's possible that the archons were theorized by the XN though. The XN left when individuality was on the rise among Protoss and it is the XN that empowered Protoss psi. You could almost speculate that their goal was to create archons from the start. Archons can only be created with psi mastery and a strong psi link. With the psi link broken through individuality, the XN might have thought it would take too long to fix the issue and decided to work an a race that is fundamentally always linked.

Hmmm, I like it in theory but Dark Templar represent individuality incarnate (when it comes to the Protoss that is) and they can easily form Archons. Even then, pre-Aeon of Strife Protoss were at their height (discounting the retcons, that is) even as they were becoming more individualistic, so Archons could've been possible.

Also, I can't imagine the Xel'Naga just losing patience since they spent forever (figuratively speaking) before finally settling on the Protoss in the first place, afterall. They left the Protoss because they genuinely believed the Protoss were a failed creation and couldn't do anything more with them.


Purity of essence is somewhat clearer but purity of form is really unspecific.

Heh, most people seemed to understand what purity of form meant whilst not understanding what purity of essence due to its more esoteric nature.

If I had to wager a guess on what esoteric nature constitutes purity of form though, I'd probably lean into the word "purity" and the aspect that that implies. If something is "pure", it's uncontaminated/uncorrupted and to have this purity maintained suggests resistance to specific change of that quality. So, like the essence of the Zerg being a mental quality (their drive to survive, improve and be on-top of the food chain) being constant despite the inclusion of and potential of foreign agents into it (ie: alien species it incorporates into itself and, to an extent, the Overmind) to denote purity, the form of the Protoss is a physical quality (their current physical shape and the capabilities of it) that remains constant despite the exposure to and potential of foreign elements to denote its purity.

In hindsight, it would have been much easier to explain why the Protoss are resistant to infestation (but not assimilation as I've always considered this a different process) by the Zerg because of their "purity of form" rather than because of their psionics/psionic link/Khala/whatever.

[sandwich_bird]

I think it boils down to the zerg being unable to use computers

That makes sense too. There are instances of zerg using technology but that was after the XN. You could say that the zerg didn't know about technology until after they assimilated the XN but by then, all of it was already destroyed.


We are not told the parameters of what is considered "perfect" for the Xel'Naga save for the fact that they considered the Protoss met their criteria for physical perfection. It's just an established fact you have to accept as part of the backstory.

That's not to say that the story wouldn't be more solid with a concrete definition though. I think it's warranted but we can disagree.


The Zerg wouldn't have the capability to create the conditions, the ability to speed up time nor the patience the Xel'Naga had to create/evolve the Protoss naturally themselves even if it weren't for the fact that the creation of Protoss was pure luck to begin with. It'd be (relatively) quicker to go find them.

They wouldn't need to evolve them, just to spawn the latest version. If they have the bio information, it should be no trouble for them. With that said, if all they know are the features of a protoss, it's debatable if they could make one from scratch.


but Dark Templar represent individuality incarnate (when it comes to the Protoss that is) and they can easily form Archons.

Dark Archons though(nvm sc2). I don't remember, was there any instances of DT forming regular archons pre-sc2?


Even then, pre-Aeon of Strife Protoss were at their height (discounting the retcons, that is) even as they were becoming more individualistic, so Archons could've been possible.

According to the wiki, psi storm didn't happen pre-khala. If making archons is something that is harder to accomplish then it wouldn't happen beforehand. I'll admit that it could be either way though.


Also, I can't imagine the Xel'Naga just losing patience since they spent forever (figuratively speaking) before finally settling on the Protoss in the first place, afterall. They left the Protoss because they genuinely believed the Protoss were a failed creation and couldn't do anything more with them.

We're never given any specific reason why they were deemed failed creations (correct me if I'm wrong). All we know is that they left when individuality was rising. This is interesting because the XN were trying to make the "perfect form". What does social behavior have to do with perfect form? If we assume that archons were the goal and that psi-link is required, being able to break away from the link could be considered a fundamental flaw.


the form of the Protoss is a physical quality (their current physical shape and the capabilities of it) that remains constant despite the exposure to and potential of foreign elements to denote its purity.


I mean, if a being remains constant despite exposure to any foreign elements, it would be said that this being is adapted to any environment(unless you accept constancy through death but then the protoss wouldn't be too special :p). This leads back to my definition. Maybe it would be better to talk about purity of form in reference to the psi-link rather than the biological form. A psi-link that remains constant despite exposure to any foreign elements. idk, that could explain why the XN left if anything.

[Turalyon]

That's not to say that the story wouldn't be more solid with a concrete definition though.

There was a concrete definition... of sorts. "These beings were incredibly adaptable to harsh natural conditions and climates. Their strength and speed were unparalleled amongst the other races known to the Xel'Naga."


They wouldn't need to evolve them, just to spawn the latest version. If they have the bio information, it should be no trouble for them. With that said, if all they know are the features of a protoss, it's debatable if they could make one from scratch.

Eh, you're kind of suggesting it's as easy as 3d printing, which I don't think is warranted. The Protoss were a fluke the Xel'Naga happened on since they were "despairing at last" until they discovered them on Aiur. How can they be sure their quick-fire, construct-a-Protoss version would be the same as the original thing?


Dark Archons though(nvm sc2). I don't remember, was there any instances of DT forming regular archons pre-sc2?

I wasn't really specifying whether the difference between an Archon and Dark Archon mattered though. If "purity of essence" meant "energy beings" and the Xel'Naga was aiming for this all along in the Protoss, Archons and Dark Archon are both "energy beings" even if one happens to be vanilla flavoured and the other strawberry...


According to the wiki, psi storm didn't happen pre-khala.

Does this imply that Protoss had no psionic capabilities other than telepathy before Khas? That must be a retcon since the precursors to Dark Templar/non-Khala adherents/Rogue tribes that Khas was trying to train/hide were able to cast psionic storms (though unable to control them). Also, the legend that they were able to devastate the greater land masses of Aiur during the Aeon of Strife must have some grain of truth in it, suggesting that Protoss should've been able cast psi-storms even before Khas' time.


We're never given any specific reason why they were deemed failed creations (correct me if I'm wrong).

I'll gladly correct you. :D

"Believing that they had made a grave mistake in pushing their failed creation too fast, the Xel’Naga made to depart Aiur forever."

"They believed that the Xel’Naga had been right to abandon them and that because their racial essence had been corrupted by the rise of ego, they were indeed a failed creation."


All we know is that they left when individuality was rising. This is interesting because the XN were trying to make the "perfect form". What does social behavior have to do with perfect form?

"The Xel’Naga deemed that the purity of form they sought to create had been sullied by a conflict of essence and thus decreed that the Protoss were, in fact, a failed creation."

The Xel'Naga were looking to make the perfect life-form, not just purity of form or essence in isolation. They initially were pursuing the physicality of that life-form first (the purity of form) and after many disappointing outcomes, they found it in the Protoss. They then decided to shift their priorities to more social aspects since the perfect life-form should apparently have this aspect, too. Because they failed in that regard with the Protoss, they wanted to focus on purity of essence and getting that right, disregarding physical form in that next attempt. They succeeded, but the Zerg are hardly the "perfect life-form" because their physical forms are changeable and corruptible.


I mean, if a being remains constant despite exposure to any foreign elements, it would be said that this being is adapted to any environment

Indeed, if you look at the very first quote I provided in this reply, this is what the Protoss is described as being capable of.


Maybe it would be better to talk about purity of form in reference to the psi-link rather than the biological form. A psi-link that remains constant despite exposure to any foreign elements. idk, that could explain why the XN left if anything.

This then suggests Zerg have both purity of form and essence and are therefore the perfect life-form the Xel'Naga were striving for, yes? Hmmm, that's certainly an interesting interpretation...

[Mislagnissa]

I think it boils down to the zerg being unable to use computers (and yeah, the information being destroyed during the attack).

The zerg could use computers. We see them do so in the Loomings/Precursor campaign when they lay traps inside the terran facilities. Even if the concept of making tools eludes them, they are capable of using existing technological devices when pressed. They probably have numerous breeds designed specifically to use alien tools.

We could come up with countless reasons why the xel'naga's "detailed genetic histories" were detailed enough that the Overmind could make overlords and queens much smarter, yet enough detail was missing that the zerg were forced to physically harvest species listed. The exact reason compared to other possible reasons is not relevant unless it is used as a plot point, and even then I suspect the difference would be academic.

In any case, only Metzen's script explicitly states the zerg will become perfect immediately after they assimilate the protoss. Key word being "immediately." The manual states the Overmind seeks perfection by assimilating the strongest species in the universe, with no implication that this has any kind of time frame (as Abathur claims) nor that the protoss are the single strongest species in the universe (as the campaign claims).

I can understand the protoss being a stepping stone in the zerg's quest to conquer the galaxy and eventually the universe, but I cannot see "purity of form" being what the zerg need to achieve perfection. It's an arbitrary quality, for one thing. You can make all kinds of arguments about the validity and what the xel'naga were pursuing but ultimately you are missing the point of their desires being wholly arbitrary. Whose to say that the xel'naga would not have changed their minds even if the protoss were successful?

As it stands, the only bar we have for judging perfection is omnipotence. An omnipotent entity is as close to perfection as we can conceptualize, depending on what you believe.

[sandwich_bird]

Eh, you're kind of suggesting it's as easy as 3d printing, which I don't think is warranted. The Protoss were a fluke the Xel'Naga happened on since they were "despairing at last" until they discovered them on Aiur. How can they be sure their quick-fire, construct-a-Protoss version would be the same as the original thing?

It's hard to know exactly what their bio engineering capabilities are. Listening to Abathur, it really does sound like they can manufacture anything like a 3d printer. Of course, that's SC2 logic. It's less obvious in SC1.

As for the accuracy of their home-made protoss, the overmind knows enough about the protoss to assume they have purity of form. You could assume that he understands what the requirements for such a thing are. If he knows the requirements, it's as simple as placing check-marks.


I wasn't really specifying whether the difference between an Archon and Dark Archon mattered though. If "purity of essence" meant "energy beings" and the Xel'Naga was aiming for this all along in the Protoss, Archons and Dark Archon are both "energy beings" even if one happens to be vanilla flavoured and the other strawberry...

Yeah but do they know that dark Archons can exist or that the void can be manipulated this way? Do the old protoss master void energy enough to form dark archons? Do they even know about the void?


Does this imply that Protoss had no psionic capabilities other than telepathy before Khas? That must be a retcon since the precursors to Dark Templar/non-Khala adherents/Rogue tribes that Khas was trying to train/hide were able to cast psionic storms (though unable to control them). Also, the legend that they were able to devastate the greater land masses of Aiur during the Aeon of Strife must have some grain of truth in it, suggesting that Protoss should've been able cast psi-storms even before Khas' time.

Meh, you could just say that the level of mastery was not advanced/refined enough during those days. XN were also psi fanatics; it's possible that they consider the void and evil energy or something. Being pure void energy would be then considered unsuitable to their own definition of perfection.


Indeed, if you look at the very first quote I provided in this reply, this is what the Protoss is described as being capable of.

The thing is that the protoss don't satisfy that at all. As I was saying, it's impossible unless you can change yourself. I can list examples again: in a gas world, the Protoss aren't adapted because they can't fly. In a jungle full of giant predators, the protoss would be prey without technology. Etc.. The only time where a protoss can be adapted to anything is when he's pure energy as an archon.


This then suggests Zerg have both purity of form and essence and are therefore the perfect life-form the Xel'Naga were striving for, yes? Hmmm, that's certainly an interesting interpretation...

If you'd approach it that way, you'd have to make it clear though that the Overmind interpretation of perfect is different than the XN.


As it stands, the only bar we have for judging perfection is omnipotence. An omnipotent entity is as close to perfection as we can conceptualize, depending on what you believe.

I didn't thought about it that way before but yeah, if perfection is omnipotence then by assimilating the universe, the overmind would be omnipotent and thus perfect.

[Gradius]

The zerg could use computers. We see them do so in the Loomings/Precursor campaign when they lay traps inside the terran facilities. Even if the concept of making tools eludes them, they are capable of using existing technological devices when pressed. They probably have numerous breeds designed specifically to use alien tools.
Their usage is limited though. They're not going to know how to use complex programs or convert coordinates, or enter passwords, pass biometric security, interface with their psionic machines, etc. It's completely believable the Overmind couldn't get more than a general location from Xel'Naga memories, especially after destroying all their ships.


I can understand the protoss being a stepping stone in the zerg's quest to conquer the galaxy and eventually the universe, but I cannot see "purity of form" being what the zerg need to achieve perfection.
Ok, well, it's the plot of the game.


It's an arbitrary quality, for one thing. You can make all kinds of arguments about the validity and what the xel'naga were pursuing but ultimately you are missing the point of their desires being wholly arbitrary. Whose to say that the xel'naga would not have changed their minds even if the protoss were successful?
Who cares? What the Xel'Naga wanted no longer matters because they're dead and the Overmind is going to be the one to finish their experiments. Obviously the Overmind's conception of "perfection" is contextual and subjective, on top of him using flowery Abrahamic language to express what he wants.

I thought it was obvious that unless "purity of form" shows up in your Merriam Webster, what the Overmind considers perfect and the literal dictionary definition of the word perfect clearly aren't the same.

[Mislagnissa]

In any event, there is no implication in the manual that the zerg will become perfect by assimilating the protoss specifically. They seek to become perfect by assimilating the strongest species in the universe, but "perfect" and "strongest" in this case are both arbitrary and situational. The zerg assimilated countless species like the slothien and mantis screamers, who are hardly the strongest species in the universe at first glance, and there is no way to predict when or if the zerg will ever qualify as perfect.

The immediate reason why the zerg are obsessed with the protoss is because the protoss constitute an existential threat, which should be obvious from reading the relevant passage in the manual. The protoss have both the means and the motivation to exterminate the zerg with ease. Whether they can/should be assimilated is a secondary concern by any sane ordering of priorities.

I have my disagreements with Enumerate, but what I did like about it was that it made a clear distinction between perfection and survival and worked this into the plot. Within the chronology the fatal flaw of the Overmind was that it sought perfection over survival, which led to its destruction by the protoss who exploited the vulnerability in the hive mind it created by interfacing with the psionic matrix before victory was actually assured (btw: there are plenty of reasons to hack the psi matrix beyond assimilation, since it is integral to the protoss infrastructure, and psi warfare is a major plot point). After its resurrection at the "end" of the chronology (i.e. it isn't detailed beyond that point), the Overmind's priority changes to survival over perfection.

[Nissa]

We're never given any specific reason why they were deemed failed creations (correct me if I'm wrong).


I'll gladly correct you.

"Believing that they had made a grave mistake in pushing their failed creation too fast, the Xel’Naga made to depart Aiur forever."

"They believed that the Xel’Naga had been right to abandon them and that because their racial essence had been corrupted by the rise of ego, they were indeed a failed creation."

Sandwich is still correct. The above quote states what the Protoss believed about the XN, not what the XN themselves would have said. Given the line in the first Protoss missions (Zeratul or Tassadar I can't remember which) about completing the experiments of the XN, it's entirely possible that the XN were simply putting the Protoss on hold, or simply leaving them to develop their culture without interference. We don't actually know for sure why the XN did what they did. Actually the only person who might have known is the Overmind (cerebrates, maybe?), because they learned from the XN they destroyed.

With apologies for interrupting your discussion, of course.

Ah, here we go:


Zeratul: Indeed. When I slew the Cerebrate on Char, I touched briefly with the essence of the Overmind. In that instant, my mind was filled with its thoughts, and I tell you now our worst fears have come true.
Zeratul: The Zerg were indeed created by the ancient Xel'Naga, the same beings that empowered us in our infancy. But the Overmind grew beyond their constraints and has at last come to finish the experiments they began so long ago.
Tassadar: So you see my friends, we fight not only to save Aiur, but all creation! If we fall to the Zerg then the Overmind will run rampant throughout the stars, consuming all sentience - all life. It is up to us to put an end to this madness, once and for all.

This seems to imply that the end result of the XN experiments is infested Protoss, or somesuch. Not that anyone can really say for sure.

[Gradius]

In any event, there is no implication in the manual that the zerg will become perfect by assimilating the protoss specifically. They seek to become perfect by assimilating the strongest species in the universe, but "perfect" and "strongest" in this case are both arbitrary and situational. The zerg assimilated countless species like the slothien and mantis screamers, who are hardly the strongest species in the universe at first glance, and there is no way to predict when or if the zerg will ever qualify as perfect.
"The Overmind's bio says "it exists to become the perfect life-form by assimilating the strongest species in the universe". The protoss are the strongest known species in the universe according to it, therefore the Overmind wants to assimilate them"

They have purity of form and are strong enough according to the Overmind, which would complete the Xel'Naga's experiments if they could be merged with the zerg. Maybe there's a species in the Andromeda galaxy that's stronger than the protoss and has purity of form which would also make them a candidate, but this doesn't apply to Slothien or Mantis Screamers so I'm not sure what your point is with that.


The immediate reason why the zerg are obsessed with the protoss is because the protoss constitute an existential threat, which should be obvious from reading the relevant passage in the manual. The protoss have both the means and the motivation to exterminate the zerg with ease. Whether they can/should be assimilated is a secondary concern by any sane ordering of priorities.
Huh? They're not even in that part of the galaxy. The protoss don't even know about the zerg at that time. How are they an "existential threat"? The Overmind didn't travel thousands of lightyears to find them because it feels threatened, it traveled because it wants to assimilate them. The manual says so.

[Turalyon]

As for the accuracy of their home-made protoss, the overmind knows enough about the protoss to assume they have purity of form. You could assume that he understands what the requirements for such a thing are. If he knows the requirements, it's as simple as placing check-marks.

Eh, if the Xel'Naga did have enough information to create instant-Protoss and the Zerg obtained this knowledge, it would kinda invalidate why the Zerg went to try and absorb the actual Protos,s wouldn't it? Obviously, that wasn't the case.


Yeah but do they know that dark Archons can exist or that the void can be manipulated this way? Do the old protoss master void energy enough to form dark archons? Do they even know about the void?

Would these details be even meaningful? Archons and Dark Archons are "energy beings" at the end of the day. If the Xel'Naga really wanted "energy beings" they would've exhausted all scientific opportunities to at least try and get them before considering them failures and leaving. Afterall, they did wait for goodness knows how long before they lucked in by finding the Protoss in the first place. Regardless of societal quibbles getting in the way, it seems kinda blase that they would just abandon them if they knew the Protoss had the latent physical capacity to create "energy beings" if that was indeed what they were aiming for.


Meh, you could just say that the level of mastery was not advanced/refined enough during those days. XN were also psi fanatics; it's possible that they consider the void and evil energy or something. Being pure void energy would be then considered unsuitable to their own definition of perfection.

But Xel'Naga seem to live and originate in a Void like dimension anyway according to Sc2. Besides, if the Xel'Naga considered Void energy "bad", they wouldn't have considered the Overmind/Zerg a success because the Overmind radiates energy that is similar to the Dark Templar (the Overmind specifically says this is how DTs do it harm). Indeed, the psionic potential of non-psi-link Protoss would be exactly what the Xel'Naga should've been focusing on based on your theory.


The thing is that the protoss don't satisfy that at all. As I was saying, it's impossible unless you can change yourself. I can list examples again: in a gas world, the Protoss aren't adapted because they can't fly. In a jungle full of giant predators, the protoss would be prey without technology. Etc.. The only time where a protoss can be adapted to anything is when he's pure energy as an archon.

The manual disagrees with you, I'm afraid. The Xel'Naga considered the Protoss the best life-form they could find in all their varied experiments on numerous worlds. They were stronger and faster than any other life-form they ever encountered.

Being a "perfect life-form" doesn't necessarily entail being able to do or be everything, since the parameter of "life-form" implies limitations of some degree. On a gas planet, no sophisticated life-form can really exist or expected to survive in such an environment anyway.



Who cares? What the Xel'Naga wanted no longer matters because they're dead and the Overmind is going to be the one to finish their experiments. Obviously the Overmind's conception of "perfection" is contextual and subjective, on top of him using flowery Abrahamic language to express what he wants.

I thought it was obvious that unless "purity of form" shows up in your Merriam Webster, what the Overmind considers perfect and the literal dictionary definition of the word perfect clearly aren't the same.

Good gods, this!!



In any event, there is no implication in the manual that the zerg will become perfect by assimilating the protoss specifically.

I think you're confusing the Overmind's use of the word "perfect" as if it actually was referring to some objective, all-encompassing thing when all it really meant was a subjective one. Much as I love the Overmind character, I'm not blind to the fact that it runs on hubris, uses rhetoric and that it's not really a god.


The immediate reason why the zerg are obsessed with the protoss is because the protoss constitute an existential threat, which should be obvious from reading the relevant passage in the manual. The protoss have both the means and the motivation to exterminate the zerg with ease. Whether they can/should be assimilated is a secondary concern by any sane ordering of priorities.

This is wrong on so many levels, I don't know where to begin... The Zerg motivation for doing absolutely anything is to incorporate other species into themselves to become top-dog - everything else stems from that primary motivation. This constancy of motivation is why they have purity of essence.

From an outside perspective, the Protoss are in the act of self-destruction by the time the Overmind learns of their existence. There is no way the Protoss are a threat to anyone but themselves. The Overmind could've learned about the Protoss being divided and fighting themselves from the Xel'Naga as well. That they were at their weakest and billed as physically superior by the Xel'Naga would be the more likely reason the Overmind was spurred to go find them, not just to go kill them for the sake of killing them.



Sandwich is still correct. The above quote states what the Protoss believed about the XN, not what the XN themselves would have said.

Um, the first of the two quotes I provided comes from the Xel'Naga, or rather, the omniscient narrator laying out the Xel'Nagan thoughts on the matter. The second is the Protoss acquiescing to the fact that they were failures.

There's more from the Zerg and Protoss history that unequivocally pounds home the idea that the Protoss were considered a failure to the Xel'Naga, but I don't need to quote anymore because one can just read it for themselves.


This seems to imply that the end result of the XN experiments is infested Protoss, or somesuch. Not that anyone can really say for sure.

It could also mean that the Overmind is continuing the Xel'Nagas experiments to create the ultimate life-form, but has subverted and twisted it into thinking that it's achieved by assimilating the Protoss.

[Mislagnissa]

I'm frustrated with this argument so forgive me for not replying to every individual response.

Extracts from the game script are hardly supporting evidence. The game contradicts the manual on numerous key plot points so it's better off ignored as Metzen's fanon/misinterpretation of Phinney's work. (I am crediting Starcraft's original lore to Phinney because Metzen explained in interview that his original idea was space vampires before Blizzard talked him out of it, so I have no reason to believe Metzen ever had a good idea.)

Purity of whatever is an arbitrary concept prior to the SC2 retcons. It's a school of thought among the xel'naga and not the only one. You can't treat it like something that can be objectively measured and applied to multiple different species.

Perfection is an arbitrary concept, and the manual never gives a time frame for when the Overmind expects to achieve it if ever. The idea that they will become perfect by assimilating the protoss is original to the game.

The idea that the xel'naga would have continued their experiments on the protoss is original to the game, as the manual states they dismissed purity of form in favor of essence. There's no evidence in the manual that the zerg were completing anything by trying to combining two arbitrary quasi-religious concepts.

All of that stuff is Metzen's fanon/misinterpretation. Or the zerg's quasi-religious beliefs if you're feeling charitable.

The manual makes it clear that the Overmind was concerned with war against the protoss.


Through dissecting the memories of the Xel’Naga, the Overmind was made aware of the myriad races that had at one time or another been influenced by the ancient race. The Xel’Naga had kept a detailed genetic history of each race, giving the Overmind a clear understanding of their respective strengths and weaknesses. Most importantly, the Overmind learned of an exceedingly powerful race that lived near the galaxy’s fringe known only as the Protoss. The Overmind knew then that the Protoss and the Zerg would eventually be caught in an inevitable, apocalyptic conflict.

The Zerg left the lifeless, burning world of Zerus and laid waste to every planet they found along their path towards the Protoss Homeworld. As they progressed slowly through the trackless dark between the stars, the Zerg assimilated only the strongest of the races that they came across. The swarm continued to build steadily, ever-increasing in size and power. As they progressed, the Overmind sent out numerous deep-space probes that scouted ahead of the swarm, searching for new worlds to plunder.

Despite innumerable victories, the Overmind was greatly disturbed. The Overmind was aware that the Protoss had become a highly psionic race, able to bend and warp the very fabric of reality to their whims. It sought a way to counter the awesome might of the Protoss, but found no answers among the genetic strains it devoured.

The Overmind traveled to Aiur, eating everything on the way, because the zerg and protoss were destined to war. The text never specifies why. You can certainly draw the conclusion that the Overmind went on a quest to assimilate them like it does everything else, but it is clear from the text that the reality-warping protoss would squash them like... well, bugs. This regardless of whether the zerg initiated the war or not, since it was inevitable.

The Overmind must destroy the threat the protoss pose, but it is driven to assimilate their flesh. These are the only conclusions we can draw that don't fall apart under Occam's razor by making needless postulates.

[Gradius]

Again, the protoss are threatening the Zerg in no way while they’re on Zerus. They’re in completely different parts of the galaxy so that makes absolutely no sense. Like, what even are you talking about? The manual clearly states the Overmind exists to assimilate the strongest species. It therefore went thousands of light years out of its way because it wanted something from them (strength and/or purity of essence), not because of “destiny”. Sorry but “destiny” is way dumber than what Metzen came up with. At least acknowledge your fanon as just that.

[Mislagnissa]

Again, the protoss are threatening the Zerg in no way while they’re on Zerus. They’re in completely different parts of the galaxy so that makes absolutely no sense. Like, what even are you talking about? The manual clearly states the Overmind exists to assimilate the strongest species. It therefore went thousands of light years out of its way because it wanted something from them (strength and/or purity of essence), not because of “destiny”. Sorry but “destiny” is way dumber than what Metzen came up with. At least acknowledge your fanon as just that.
The manual literally states: "The Overmind knew then that the Protoss and the Zerg would eventually be caught in an inevitable, apocalyptic conflict."

The protoss have a history of racism and the whole "manifest destiny" shtick going for them even before the Aeon of Strife (when the xel'naga last had contact). It is reasonable for the Overmind to assume the protoss would exterminate the zerg even if the zerg did not initiate hostilities (fat chance of that happening, since their shtick is to consume the strongest species they find in never-ending pursuit of fabled perfection... surprise, surprise, the protoss almost certainly fit the bill).

The Liberty's Crusade novel explains that the zerg describe the protoss as genetic xenophobes who exterminate any life that grows beyond their control or does not meet their standards of perfection, while the zerg by contrast are genetic survivors that hunt other species as food and raw materials. This is not stated in the manual, sure, but unlike Metzen it doesn't pointlessly contradict the manual.

This traps the zerg in a seeming catch-22: either they can wait for the protoss to kill them for being ugly, or they can bring the fight to the protoss and get a nice pair of genes out of the ordeal assuming they can find a determinant that may not exist. No surprise they chose the latter, a la "do not go gently into that good night."

We're arguing semantics at this point. We both know that we agree on the same basic things with regard to the zerg. Could we stop wasting each others' time, please?

[Gradius]

The manual literally states: "The Overmind knew then that the Protoss and the Zerg would eventually be caught in an inevitable, apocalyptic conflict."
Yes, it's inevitable because the Overmind wants to assimilate the protoss, and it has to destroy their military to do that. The manual tells us the Overmind's motivation (to assimilate the strongest species), whereas your non-sequitur that it only went for the protoss because it felt threatened and that it was its "destiny" is out-of-the-blue and not in the manual.


The protoss have a history of racism and the whole "manifest destiny" shtick going for them even before the Aeon of Strife (when the xel'naga last had contact). It is reasonable for the Overmind to assume the protoss would exterminate the zerg even if the zerg did not initiate hostilities (fat chance of that happening, since their shtick is to consume the strongest species they find in never-ending pursuit of fabled perfection... surprise, surprise, the protoss almost certainly fit the bill).

The Liberty's Crusade novel explains that the zerg describe the protoss as genetic xenophobes who exterminate any life that grows beyond their control or does not meet their standards of perfection, while the zerg by contrast are genetic survivors that hunt other species as food and raw materials. This is not stated in the manual, sure, but unlike Metzen it doesn't pointlessly contradict the manual.

This traps the zerg in a seeming catch-22: either they can wait for the protoss to kill them for being ugly, or they can bring the fight to the protoss and get a nice pair of genes out of the ordeal assuming they can find a determinant that may not exist. No surprise they chose the latter, a la "do not go gently into that good night."
The same can be said for literally any other species they encounter, only it makes zero sense to assume this about the protoss given that by that point in time the Overmind has no clue about their military capabilities, society, or if they're even still alive and not wiped out by some meteor, disease, or hostile alien race. The determinant was also not a factor when the Overmind left to look for the protoss.

Both the manual and game agree that the Overmind wants to assimilate the species that will most benefit the zerg. That is its motivation. Anything else you've come up with is pure fanon.

[sandwich_bird]

Eh, if the Xel'Naga did have enough information to create instant-Protoss and the Zerg obtained this knowledge, it would kinda invalidate why the Zerg went to try and absorb the actual Protos,s wouldn't it?

Well yeah, that's my original point :p What I said originally:


In fact, the Zerg already possess the mean to create Protoss because they are masters of genetic engineering AND because they possess everything the XN know. So the current plot-line doesn't make much sense to me. Neither are the talks about merging both purity of essence with purity of form.

So, if the zerg's goal has to be the assimilation of the Protoss then it needs to be for something other than getting their biological data. I'd propose instead that the zerg should want to assimilate the Protoss minds (and not bodies) for their psi-mastery

Of course, this was before we argued on other stuff but it still stands that the protoss on paper aren't that special apart from that psi thing (and possibly the void). If you agree that this is the case, it makes sense to shift your focus of "purity of form", "perfect" and etc on psi related topics rather than physiology and etc.



Would these details be even meaningful? Archons and Dark Archons are "energy beings" at the end of the day. If the Xel'Naga really wanted "energy beings" they would've exhausted all scientific opportunities to at least try and get them before considering them failures and leaving. Afterall, they did wait for goodness knows how long before they lucked in by finding the Protoss in the first place. Regardless of societal quibbles getting in the way, it seems kinda blase that they would just abandon them if they knew the Protoss had the latent physical capacity to create "energy beings" if that was indeed what they were aiming for.


We're going in circle now. If a strong psi-link is fundamentally required to create archons and protoss can break away from the psi-link then you can never ascend the entire race to archons unless you can prevent individuality. If individuality is unpreventable then you can't ascend the entire race to archons which means that the protoss would be a failed creation. Maybe the Xel Naga did try some social engineering to ensure that the protoss don't break away (and there is obviously evidences of that). But when this failed to prevent individuality, they would be basically left to try to and change their biology and probably wipe out the entire race.

This is why those details are meaningful. To support this version, the existence of dark archons must not be known/theorized. Alternatively, according to the wiki, it is said that Dark Archons are unstable and can't be stabilized for long. That's probably a better explanation.


But Xel'Naga seem to live and originate in a Void like dimension anyway according to Sc2.

I try to work with SC1 lore because I generally hate SC2 lore. The idea might be compatible with SC2 though but before I'd even try to adapt this with SC2, we'd need to brush up most of SC2's core story. Like, Amon left the protoss because they weren't going to submit to his plan but he can corrupt the psi-link and MC everyone int LotV? Surely he would have MCed the protoss before the rise of individuality? Too many stuff like that that needs to be explained.


Besides, if the Xel'Naga considered Void energy "bad", they wouldn't have considered the Overmind/Zerg a success because the Overmind radiates energy that is similar to the Dark Templar (the Overmind specifically says this is how DTs do it harm). Indeed, the psionic potential of non-psi-link Protoss would be exactly what the Xel'Naga should've been focusing on based on your theory

Fair enough. Would need another explanation to circumvent the Dark Archon issue. The stability mentioned earlier might be it. Not sure though.


The manual disagrees with you, I'm afraid. The Xel'Naga considered the Protoss the best life-form they could find in all their varied experiments on numerous worlds.


And yet, they are not adapted to any or most environments. You agreed previously that the manual describe purity of form as being adapted to any environment, you also agreed that the protoss are not adapted to any environment, right? You have to agree that there are other lifeforms that are adapted to more environment than the protoss(because I can give you an example such as the mantis screamer) and you have to agree that the Xel Naga likely encountered these lifeforms. If you agree with this, then how do you account the fact that the Xel Naga settled on the protoss? How do you account that the Xel Naga didn't give them wings, make them bigger and add claws or whatever? But instead, they sought to increase their psi powers. It has to be because psi is key to being adapted to any environment.


They were stronger and faster than any other life-form they ever encountered.

Stronger and faster at what? Under what scale? When you say stronger, you assume either fighting or lifting weight. When you say faster, you assume distance traveled by center of mass/time and both of these implied under the average atmospheric condition of the planet where that specie lives(or any planet where life as we know it can exist). Well... Mutalisks are huge. They can lift their entire weight in space by pushing against very little air pockets and they do it at ridiculous speed... They spit stuff that can kill any ground bound specie and destroy bloody spaceships with shields and whatever. Pretty sure that by most interpretations, mutalisks are the most perfect life form that this universe has if you don't talk about psi. If psi has no significance in the definition of perfect form then I don't know what to say other than it's stupid :p


Being a "perfect life-form" doesn't necessarily entail being able to do or be everything

If you're adapted to any environment, you can basically do everything.

[Turalyon]

Well yeah, that's my original point

Your original point was that there was sufficient evidence to suggest that Xel'Naga could create insta-Protoss on the fly? That's a big assumption.


Of course, this was before we argued on other stuff but it still stands that the protoss on paper aren't that special apart from that psi thing (and possibly the void).

Yeah but we're talking about purity of form and essence - which are not "special" in and of themselves. The Zerg maintaining their core/primary motivation for doing what they do despite changes being visited on them (their "purity of essence") isn't really "special" either, only their ability to assimilate and integrate and subvert alien material into their genome and improving themselves is. This ability is not what the Xel'Naga were really interested in.


We're going in circle now. If a strong psi-link is fundamentally required to create archons and protoss can break away from the psi-link then you can never ascend the entire race to archons unless you can prevent individuality. If individuality is unpreventable then you can't ascend the entire race to archons which means that the protoss would be a failed creation. Maybe the Xel Naga did try some social engineering to ensure that the protoss don't break away (and there is obviously evidences of that). But when this failed to prevent individuality, they would be basically left to try to and change their biology and probably wipe out the entire race.

So now the Xel'Nagas overall goal with the Protoss is to not just achieve/create "energy beings" from them but to make the whole entire race of Protoss into "energy beings"? The level of minutiae required to explain it is confusing.


And yet, they are not adapted to any or most environments. You agreed previously that the manual describe purity of form as being adapted to any environment, you also agreed that the protoss are not adapted to any environment, right? You have to agree that there are other lifeforms that are adapted to more environment than the protoss(because I can give you an example such as the mantis screamer) and you have to agree that the Xel Naga likely encountered these lifeforms. If you agree with this, then how do you account the fact that the Xel Naga settled on the protoss? How do you account that the Xel Naga didn't give them wings, make them bigger and add claws or whatever? But instead, they sought to increase their psi powers. It has to be because psi is key to being adapted to any environment.

"These beings were incredibly adaptable to harsh natural conditions and climates. Their strength and speed were unparalleled amongst the other races known to the Xel'Naga."

It ain't about being adapted to any and all environments, it's about being able to survive environments/situations that would normally kill any other life-form. I theorised that the Protoss "purity of form" is their physical structure being able to withstand punishment and not yield, bend or change to the elements or pressures being thrown against it over the long term (this is not to say they're impervious to physical harm mind you). This is in contrast to the Zerg "purity of essence", a mental or social structure being able to withstand punishment and not yield, bend or change to the elements or pressures being thrown against it over the long term. Because this "purity of form" meant the Protoss had mastered the physical aspect of survival, the Xel'Naga decided to see what they could do with their social structure next. That failed so the Xel'Naga concentrated on achieving purity of this aspect next with the Zerg.

As such, Protoss lack purity of essence because their mental/social structure cannot withstand outside forces imposing on it whilst the Zerg lack purity of form because their physical structure constantly change due to being forced to integrate foreign aspects into it. In this light, those purities are complimentary to each other.