20 years of Starcraft

[Turalyon]

IGN has posted an interview (http://au.ign.com/articles/2018/03/30/celebrating-20-years-of-starcraft-an-interview-with-starcrafts-creators) with Chris Metzen and Sam Didier.

Some of this stuff isn't probably new to many of you but here's the shorter version:

Kerrigan was never conceived to be a villain in Sc1 nor was redemption ever a possibility for her in BW. Her role in the narrative was to represent a "loss for the hero" and to help personify the Zerg.

The UED were to have a bigger role in BW, culminating with the Zerg invading Earth. The UED were going to be "a really big theme that was going to define the Starcraft franchise" but the "grand plan got walked back" for unspecified reasons.

Apparently, the idea of bringing in fourth franchise power during the development of Sc2 made less sense over time.

The way Tassadar sacrifices himself was not pre-planned. That end cinematic was created last and the only one to reflect the written story whilst in all other cinematics, the story was written and/or changed to reflect them.

At one point in the early stages of development, the Protoss were more insectoid and Zerg-like in appearance.


Personal commentary:

The UED thing would've been interesting had they gone ahead with that, given how poor the concept of the UED were implemented in BW (they are summarily introduced out of nowhere, have some apparent impact and lasting consequence only to have it actually have no consequence or their actions nullified so completely by the end that one could easily forget that they even existed).

The fourth power being considered "making less sense" is odd considering the Hybrids were specifically created as sequelbait and a likely fourth power. This probably explains why the Hybrids feel so anemic in the end product of Sc2.

[sandwich_bird]

He pitched versions of the Dark Templar Dragoon for both Brood War and the N64 version of Starcraft. He created concept art for it and every time, it was scrapped. But in Starcraft II, the Dark Templar Dragoon became the Stalker and actually made it into the game. “Good ideas don’t die,” Didier says with a smile. “They just go into the sequel done ten years later.”

Dark templar dragoons isn't that good of an idea imo. From a universe perspective it's alright but from a gameplay perspective it's just redundant if you're going to basically give it almost the same functionalities as a regular dragoon(minus the blink).


But over the years, his opinion of Kerrigan and villains in general began to change. “The redemption of villains became near and dear to me. I loved that idea,” Metzen explains. He prominently explored this theme in Warcraft with both Arthas and Illidan. “Kerrigan was the heart and soul of it. The wicked Queen of Blades was not who she was. She never had a chance to be herself. She was always manipulated by one power or another.”

lol. Well, even if he has a hard-on for redemptions, there's no excuse for how poorly it was done.

[Visions of Khas]

The wicked Queen of Blades was not who she was. She never had a chance to be herself. She was always manipulated by one power or another.”
lol. Well, even if he has a hard-on for redemptions, there's no excuse for how poorly it was done.

I love character development and change, especially in a universe of shades of grey. But to say "The wicked Queen of Blades was not who she was," is false. That's the whole point of redemption (see: Motherfucking Zuko (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0HLKBPOTjk&t=2s)). If you're going to say, "Well, yes, I did those things in the past, but that was actually somebody else," you're shucking off responsibility of your actions, which is the opposite of redemption. The Queen of Blades and Sarah Kerrigan are two facets of the same entity -- or, at least, they should have been.

[Nissa]

I love character development and change, especially in a universe of shades of grey. But to say "The wicked Queen of Blades was not who she was," is false. That's the whole point of redemption (see: Motherfucking Zuko (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0HLKBPOTjk&t=2s)). If you're going to say, "Well, yes, I did those things in the past, but that was actually somebody else," you're shucking off responsibility of your actions, which is the opposite of redemption. The Queen of Blades and Sarah Kerrigan are two facets of the same entity -- or, at least, they should have been.

This. Her memory loss was one of my top ten disappointments with the SC2 story. Though I'll admit that the only real redemption I ever wanted with Kerrigan is that she realizes what she's done, but is unable to return to humanity, and ultimately dies.

As for the UED, I'm glad that they never got that big. I think that in any form they're ultimately a distraction from other characters/factions and bringing Earth into the mix means making Starcraft less original. Mengsk's Dominion, the Umojans, or the Kel-Morian Combine could have served the purpose that the UED ultimately did.

[ragnarok]

lol. Well, even if he has a hard-on for redemptions, there's no excuse for how poorly it was done.

Plenty of people I've spoken to said they wanted redemption after the events of BW, and most of their ideas I remember turned out better compared to SC2. Blizzard should have redone the whole HotS storyline

[ragnarok]

This. Her memory loss was one of my top ten disappointments with the SC2 story. Though I'll admit that the only real redemption I ever wanted with Kerrigan is that she realizes what she's done, but is unable to return to humanity, and ultimately dies.

The whole memory loss is exactly the reason I didn't put it in my fic back then. I felt it was too convienent, and in any case that in itself won't absolve anything. A person's actions does that, which Blizzard didn't do for HotS because they didn't understand how to develop her. Now, if in the near future they decide to try this again from WoL onwards and make HotS's story non-canon, I'll look at it again. That I expect will probably happen in 90 years or so.

[sandwich_bird]

Though I'll admit that the only real redemption I ever wanted with Kerrigan is that she realizes what she's done, but is unable to return to humanity, and ultimately dies.

I agree. Any other kind of redemption would have been hard to pull off after brood war and that's the real problem. Speaking of Zuko, in Avatar, you always see a bit of his softer side or at least a glimpse of potential. This isn't the case with Kerrigan. She's only ever shown as pure evil. To make a believable redemption, you'd need something hard to hit her in the face. They tried to do at the end of WoL. And honestly, if you forget the artifact bs, the mind control and whatever other fluff they stuck up in there, it's not that bad. Taken in isolation, it goes something like this:

Raynor and co lunch a suicide mission on Kerrigan. They manage to beat her up somehow. Raynor's holding a gun against her head, but, he can't bring himself to do it. He blames himself for what she became and at that moment realize that despite everything, he still has hope that maybe inside of the monster there is still the girl he loved. Tychus doesn't care for that bs and goes for the kill. Raynor tries to stop him but can only do so by shooting the guy(doesn't necessarily kill him). Witnessing at which length Raynor would go to save her, she regains some of her humanity.

I honestly can live with that story piece in isolation. It's really everything else around it that makes it hard imo.

[Visions of Khas]

Witnessing at which length Raynor would go to save her, she regains some of her humanity.
Or that could just push her further. She could be well aware of all the cruel shit she's done, and then to have Raynor defend the horrors she's committed could make her feel disgust towards him. I would have loved it if she had just stood up, laughed in his face, recounted how many millions she's killed, and then say something about how he's defending it all, and how that makes him just as monstrous, if not more so.

Honestly, I just wanted to see the characters fucking break. I guess Game of Thrones has ruined me.

[ragnarok]

Or that could just push her further. She could be well aware of all the cruel shit she's done, and then to have Raynor defend the horrors she's committed could make her feel disgust towards him. I would have loved it if she had just stood up, laughed in his face, recounted how many millions she's killed, and then say something about how he's defending it all, and how that makes him just as monstrous, if not more so.

Honestly, I just wanted to see the characters fucking break. I guess Game of Thrones has ruined me.

In some ways that already happened in BW during Fenix's death, VoK. It was a shame they had to forget the whole thing in WoL.

[Turalyon]

How is Kerrigan's arc in Sc2 considered a redemption story when one considers the Queen of Blades as not being Kerrigan and that baseline Kerrigan was always good? Sc2 can't seem to decide whether Kerrigan and the Queen of Blades were the same/share the same responsibility for their actions because on one hand, if they were one and the same it badly wants to make a redemption story and throw in all the drama/angst associated with that; and on the other, it wants to distance the Queen of Blades from Kerrigan because the former's actions are only redeemable in a morally acceptable way if she died. And that can't happen because Kerrigan is the designated hero. It's weird how Kerrigan would feel shame for her actions and want to atone for them when she's confused and can't remember exactly what she did (because of denial or genuine amnesia?) but yet is able to eventually remember controlling the Zerg...

I discussed about the potential incongruity/incompatibility of a deinfested Kerrigan seeking to be good but the need of the next story to be Zerg focused prior to HotS coming out. It's a pity HotS vindicated me.


Though I'll admit that the only real redemption I ever wanted with Kerrigan is that she realizes what she's done, but is unable to return to humanity, and ultimately dies.

There is another way to do a redemption story and it doesn't have to be necessarily mean "being good" again or "balancing the scales". In keeping with the tone of the original Sc1, a dark redemption would've been a nice alternate solution.

Like I said above, I realised the incompatibility of having Kerrigan being good again despite the next story after WoL being about Zerg even before HotS came out and I figured a solution that could work as a character piece for Kerrigan, explore her deinfested state a bit but still ultimately be about Zerg and be a redemption story of a sort. In this hypothetical, alternate HotS I would have the first third explore her intent to kill Mengsk and expore her skills and the ruthlessness as an assassin. This leads to her doing morally questionable things that ultimately alienate and revulse Raynor such that when she finally kills Mengsk in the first third of the story, she realises that she has always been a monster and will always be alone. This then leads her to go back to the Zerg via her own choice. If she is to be a monster inside, she'll be a monster on the outside as well, at least she'll be at home within the darkness and embrace it at last. The remaining two-thirds would then be her re-integration back into the Swarm and the growing threat of Duran/Narud against the Zerg which ends with his defeat.


As for the UED, I'm glad that they never got that big. I think that in any form they're ultimately a distraction from other characters/factions and bringing Earth into the mix means making Starcraft less original. Mengsk's Dominion, the Umojans, or the Kel-Morian Combine could have served the purpose that the UED ultimately did.

I'm mixed about this. BW could've easily replaced the UED with the Dominion as you said and that would've been fine, but the thing is the UED was included, so one has to account for that and make sure there is consequence of their inclusion. In retrospect, they probably should've "gone home" in regard to the UED given how they came and went like a fart in the wind because they didn't "go hard" enough with the inclusion of the UED.


Raynor and co lunch a suicide mission on Kerrigan. They manage to beat her up somehow. Raynor's holding a gun against her head, but, he can't bring himself to do it. He blames himself for what she became and at that moment realize that despite everything, he still has hope that maybe inside of the monster there is still the girl he loved. Tychus doesn't care for that bs and goes for the kill. Raynor tries to stop him but can only do so by shooting the guy(doesn't necessarily kill him). Witnessing at which length Raynor would go to save her, she regains some of her humanity.

I like this ending much better, however, it would need reworking earlier in the campaign in order for us to foreshadow this or foster some doubt as to which direction he'll go. As it is, from the very beginning of WoL, Raynor has lost his edge and will to kill Kerrigan judging by his pining over her picture and guilt dreams such that when Valerian arrives to conveniently hand him the way to cut this Gordian knot of his, it's clear to everyone in-universe and out (if wasn't abundantly clear beforehand) that Raynor was always going to Char to save Kerrigan, not kill her.

[ragnarok]

This. Her memory loss was one of my top ten disappointments with the SC2 story. Though I'll admit that the only real redemption I ever wanted with Kerrigan is that she realizes what she's done, but is unable to return to humanity, and ultimately dies.


You know Nissa, that actually got me thinking: was that your plan for your Another World fic?

[Nissa]

I didn't really plan that story out that far, which was probably one reason why it didn't work out. True story: Another World was "based" on the album Another World by Paul Oakenfold. I would literally listen to the cds and then decide what happened in the plot based on the cds.

Heh, at one point I was considering killing Raynor. He would have either died or been in a coma.

[ragnarok]

I didn't really plan that story out that far, which was probably one reason why it didn't work out. True story: Another World was "based" on the album Another World by Paul Oakenfold. I would literally listen to the cds and then decide what happened in the plot based on the cds.

Heh, at one point I was considering killing Raynor. He would have either died or been in a coma.

Oh that would have been nothing new. I had considered killing him off myself after HotS's storyline, if nothing else than to see how long Kerrigan could last without him.

[Mislagnissa]

Kerrigan was never conceived to be a villain in Sc1 nor was redemption ever a possibility for her in BW. Her role in the narrative was to represent a "loss for the hero" and to help personify the Zerg.The Zerg already had personalities in the form of cer-- screw it. As I have said many times before, I think the Zerg story is a complete waste.


The UED were to have a bigger role in BW, culminating with the Zerg invading Earth. The UED were going to be "a really big theme that was going to define the Starcraft franchise" but the "grand plan got walked back" for unspecified reasons. It is a good thing my rip-off story went straight to the bugs invading Earth, rather than wasting words on explaining that the colonies were cut off from Earth then later revealing they really weren't.


Apparently, the idea of bringing in fourth franchise power during the development of Sc2 made less sense over time.It always has made little sense. SC was originally intended to be a three-way conflict, at least before the writers kept diluting the themes and forgetting what they wrote. That's why my rip-off combined the protoss and xel'naga into one species.


The way Tassadar sacrifices himself was not pre-planned. That end cinematic was created last and the only one to reflect the written story whilst in all other cinematics, the story was written and/or changed to reflect them.I was wondering why Enumerate decided to keep him alive. Honestly it makes more sense to keep him alive and have him found the twilight templar or whatever. Artanis is basically a bargain bin Tassadar anyway. You could change him to literally Tassadar and it would make no difference.


At one point in the early stages of development, the Protoss were more insectoid and Zerg-like in appearance.That's too bad they scrapped it. I never really thought the humanoid design was particularly original or plausible, especially if they were supposed to have "purity of form" or whatever it was.

[Nissa]

Artanis is basically a bargain bin Tassadar anyway. You could change him to literally Tassadar and it would make no difference.

...A bold, rash, noble person is the literal equivalent of a young, inexperienced wannabe who only has his position because everyone better than him is dead? Okay...

[ragnarok]

The Zerg already had personalities in the form of cer-- screw it. As I have said many times before, I think the Zerg story is a complete waste.


It was meant to try to change them to become something else. You really think if Blizzard allowed you to write the whole SC2 storyline everyone on the planet would agree with you?

[Mislagnissa]

...A bold, rash, noble person is the literal equivalent of a young, inexperienced wannabe who only has his position because everyone better than him is dead? Okay...

It would certainly fit with Blizzard's overall quality of writing by that point, but that isn't what I mean. Something a lot of people forget is that Tassadar's original biography is completely different than how he is portrayed by current canon.


Fenix
Protoss, age 397
Templar
Praetor of the Protoss Defense Forces
Fenix rose up through the Templar ranks alongside his friend Tassadar. He is both cunning and powerful and has fought against the enemies of the Protoss in countless battles. Capable of strong empathy and tremendous rage, Fenix has long been one of Tassadar’s greatest supporters. Fenix is distrustful of Aldaris and the Judicator caste, and thus relies only upon the honor of his fellow Templar warriors and his own unparalleled skill in the theater of battle.

Tassadar
Protoss, age 356
High Templar
Executor of the Koprulu Expedition
Tassadar exemplifies the growing rift within Protoss society. Born into a new generation that looks ahead to a dynamic future, Tassadar is frustrated by the stoic view that his elders hold of the past. Tassadar feels that the unbending nature of the Protoss and their inability to re-evaluate ancient traditions will be the doom of his race. Fascinated by the power and mysticism of the renegade Dark Templar caste, Tassadar hopes to find someway to bridge the gap between these exiles and his masters.


Artanis
Protoss, Age 262
High Templar
Praetor of the Protoss Defense Forces
Artanis is the youngest Protoss to achieve the coveted rank of Praetor. Despite his youth and relative lack of experience, he is a bold and dynamic leader. Although Artanis was a strong believer of the former Conclave and the destiny of the Protoss, he still harbors a deep respect and admiration for Tassadar and the Tribal unification for which he fought. Artanis hopes to become as great a hero as Tassadar...a hope that may lead the young warrior to forsake his better judgment in his search for glory.

Artanis is the youngest to achieve the rank of Praetor (although what this really means is never explained) yet only about a century younger than Tassadar, and since Protoss can live for thousand years or something this difference is not that great relatively speaking. Tassadar is actually a young dude and part of a new generation with newfangled beliefs.

Another oddity is that these biographies foreshadow future plot points that were never picked up. For example, Tass' bio implies he is contact with (or at least searching for) the nerazim before the expedition arrives, while Art's bio foreshadows him making a huge tactical mistake... which he never does?

I have mostly given up on criticizing SC in favor of making a rip-off which recycles interesting plot points from the original which were forgotten by the sequels. The Protoss schism is a plot point that I think was terribly under-explored and badly handled in canon.


It was meant to try to change them to become something else. You really think if Blizzard allowed you to write the whole SC2 storyline everyone on the planet would agree with you?I never would have bothered to write it. BW had already radically altered the setting by killing off the Conclave, killing off the cerebrates, and introducing Earth and Duran as new factions. It no longer had the philosophical conflicts that made the original interesting. Pretty much every installment is basically a completely different story with completely different themes which make no sense as part of a cohesive universe, shoehorned into the same brand to make money for Blizz.

Most old school fans want to see BW2, but I am even older school and prefer Enumerate's take on things even though that is an obscure and unpopular opinion. I am so old school that I prefer super obscure elements of SC's development like the Protoss originally being non-humanoid; even before I learned that from the interview, I wished they had not looked so humanoid.

I have since given up on criticizing all the parts of SC that I do not like in favor of discussing a SC clone which recycles all the stuff I found interesting about the original that was forgotten during development and in the sequels. Stuff like cerebrates, judicators, non-humanoid protoss, cyberpunk terrans, protoss empire's client races, the zerg as the big bad, etc.

I hope I have made my viewpoints clear. I do not wish to repeat myself in the future.

[Equiliari]

From the article:

"they did end up linking the two races as both creations of the Xel’ Naga in Starcraft II."
Or, you know, in the manual of the first StarCraft.

[ragnarok]

From the article:

Or, you know, in the manual of the first StarCraft.

Yeah but they didn't have to make it so that Amon was the one who did all the uplifting. Even if they HAD to put that point in there, what they could have done was this:

The SC1 manual said that when the Xel'Naga began to depart Aiur, the Protoss weren't happy about this and rebelled. Hundreds of Xel'Naga were killed in the process, what what Blizzard could have said what was the Protoss ended up killing all the Xel'Naga loyal to the cycle they had been dedicated to, which meant the ones that survived were all the ones loyal to Amon.

[Pidr]

Another oddity is that these biographies foreshadow future plot points that were never picked up. For example, Tass' bio implies he is contact with (or at least searching for) the nerazim before the expedition arrives
Actually, not necessarily. Manual's bios sometimes incorporate some important events that happen to the characters within the game itself. For instance, Raynor's bio mentions him defecting to the Sons of Korhal. Thus, Tassadar seeking to bridge the gap between his people and the Dark Templar may refer to the events that happen after his meeting with Zeratul on Char and up to Aldaris and the Executor arriving to arrest him. Of course, he has probably already started to lean towards that before the expedition.

The Artanis thing doesn't have to be foreshadowing, it's rather just describing his character. Forsaking his better judgement may also refer to him working with Kerrigan against the Renegade Zerg and becoming too trusting of her.

[Turalyon]

The Zerg already had personalities in the form of cer-- screw it.

The only cerebrate to have "personality" was Zasz and that was only selectively because it was railing specifically against Kerrigan seemingly having free reign. Without this foreign element that was Kerrigan, it's hard to fathom what conflict or personality would arise without feeling conceited in what is otherwise a unified Swarm. Daggoth, who is pretty dull personality-wise (I don't mean this with negative connotations mind you - I like Daggoth the way he is) and the Overmind, with it's droll affectation, are "boring" characters to most people.

Besides, I'm just splaining the thought processes Metzen had at the time as to why Kerrigan was ultimately used in narrative as she was. It seemingly was for utilitarian purposes at the time and not much else.


It is a good thing my rip-off story went straight to the bugs invading Earth, rather than wasting words on explaining that the colonies were cut off from Earth then later revealing they really weren't.

Eh, details. I see the value of introducing Earth in BW as being "necessary" to make the Terrans viable/continue as one of the three-way conflicts, given how the Terrans are roflstomped and clearly outmatched in SC1. Mengsk may be the new ruler of the Terrans and "all-important" in that regard - but there's not much left of them by then so it's kinda unrealistic for a three-way to keep going after Sc1. Granted this was not how Earth was actually implemented in BW though; they were instead made ultimately superfluous... which was even worse.


It always has made little sense. SC was originally intended to be a three-way conflict, at least before the writers kept diluting the themes and forgetting what they wrote. That's why my rip-off combined the protoss and xel'naga into one species.

My use of "apparently" was me commenting on the irony of Blizz themselves saying that a 4th power made little sense and yet they continued with this Hybrid/Xel'Naga path - albeit half-heartedly it seems because only the last third of the trilogy was about them ultimately anyway. It's a complete mess anyway - they obviously had no idea what direction to take the story in.

[Mislagnissa]

Yeah but they didn't have to make it so that Amon was the one who did all the uplifting. Even if they HAD to put that point in there, what they could have done was this:

The SC1 manual said that when the Xel'Naga began to depart Aiur, the Protoss weren't happy about this and rebelled. Hundreds of Xel'Naga were killed in the process, what what Blizzard could have said what was the Protoss ended up killing all the Xel'Naga loyal to the cycle they had been dedicated to, which meant the ones that survived were all the ones loyal to Amon.
That was retconned so the Protoss were in the stone age at the time. The wiki is not reliable because it attempts to reconcile all iterations of canon even though the writers clearly had no idea what they were doing and retconned everything.

I find it impossible to believe Amon was the leader of anything. He only wins and loses because the narrative says so. His plans make no sense. I have seen better writing in children's cartoons.

[ragnarok]

That was retconned so the Protoss were in the stone age at the time. The wiki is not reliable because it attempts to reconcile all iterations of canon even though the writers clearly had no idea what they were doing and retconned everything.

I find it impossible to believe Amon was the leader of anything. He only wins and loses because the narrative says so. His plans make no sense. I have seen better writing in children's cartoons.

It was trying to take the lores from SC1 and SC2 and combine them. That's my plan as well once it's time I write another SC fanfic. Now yes they'll have to be retcons, but I'll keep those minimal.

Having said that I did wish they had tried to explain Amon's past better.

[Mislagnissa]

It was trying to take the lores from SC1 and SC2 and combine them. That's my plan as well once it's time I write another SC fanfic. Now yes they'll have to be retcons, but I'll keep those minimal.

Having said that I did wish they had tried to explain Amon's past better.

Combining the lore would require extensive rewriting since most of the SC1 plot points make no sense in the context of SC2. In fact, several SC1 plot points make no sense in the context of BW. If Earth was going to show up and be invaded by the Zerg, why did the SC1 manual waste several paragraphs explaining than K-sec was completely cut off? The plot of SC2 is terrible on its own merits even without comparing it to SC1.

You are better off writing a original setting that liberally rips-off the basic plot outline of SC, like I am doing. I have the benefit of hindsight and an appreciation for good writing.

[ragnarok]

Combining the lore would require extensive rewriting since most of the SC1 plot points make no sense in the context of SC2. In fact, several SC1 plot points make no sense in the context of BW. If Earth was going to show up and be invaded by the Zerg, why did the SC1 manual waste several paragraphs explaining than K-sec was completely cut off? The plot of SC2 is terrible on its own merits even without comparing it to SC1.

You are better off writing a original setting that liberally rips-off the basic plot outline of SC, like I am doing. I have the benefit of hindsight and an appreciation for good writing.

To me, for all the retcons, I didn't feel the SC2 lore retconned things out of proportion that there's no way to mix it with the SC1 lore. Remember, I got into the whole SC universe from the SC2 lore (I didn't dive deeply into it all until almost a year after WoL was out).

You can say that's an utter waste to look at it from the SC2 lore POV, but not all of us invested that much into the SC universe and not in that sense. Having said that I hadn't been too happy for HotS's lore as it forgot things stated from WoL, or interpreted them in the wrong way.

[Mislagnissa]

You can say that's an utter waste to look at it from the SC2 lore POV, but not all of us invested that much into the SC universe and not in that sense. Having said that I hadn't been too happy for HotS's lore as it forgot things stated from WoL, or interpreted them in the wrong way.

I said SC2 is bad on its own merits, without comparing it to SC1. Most other SC2 fans fully acknowledge this.

I did not get into the lore until a couple years ago, and I still came to the conclusion that it was marred by bad writing. Watching WoL made me cringe and I had no clue who Raynor even was. The franchise needs rebooting if it is to have a viable future.

[Mislagnissa]

To me, for all the retcons, I didn't feel the SC2 lore retconned things out of proportion that there's no way to mix it with the SC1 lore. Remember, I got into the whole SC universe from the SC2 lore (I didn't dive deeply into it all until almost a year after WoL was out).
If SC1 was remade as a prequel to SC2, it would bear little resemblance to the original. To add insult to injury, it would probably be inconsistent with the plot of SC2 (which is inconsistent with itself, of course).

Among other things, the Zerg immortality has been retconned in an interview with Dustin Browder (http://sclegacy.com/index.php/news/9-events/1171-dustin-browder-interview) where he states Kerry will keep resurrecting unless all her bases are destroyed. This completely invalidates the plot of episodes 2 and 3. Furthermore, cerebrates have more or less been retconned out of existence in favor of abathur, brood mothers and pack leaders. The only mention of the word "cerebrate" is in the recap intro of LotV, and no explanation is given to what a cerebrate is.

So here's my attempt at predicting Blizzard's idiot thought processes for the plot of a remake for consistency with SC2:

Episode 1 consists entirely of Mengsk being a cackling villain who betrays Kerry and Ray because he is evil.

In Episode 2, the Zerg cast and motivations would be unrecognizable. The Overmind would be explaining how he intends to betray the idiot Amon, take control of the hybrids, and conquer the universe or something. Kerry wholeheartedly endorses this plan and all the other bland and unmemorable Zerg characters fawn over her because the writers masturbate to Kerry.

In Episode 3, the judicators would be portrayed as idiots at the mercy of the Zerg until Tass and the dark Templar save the day.

I think Brood War would probably be retconned out of continuity because it contributes absolutely nothing and is poorly written drek. Even the recap intro video of LotV sums up the entirety of BW in a sentence or two, which makes it obvious the writers do not give a crap about it. Here's my attempt at Blizzard's idiotic remake:

BW is reduced to a few missions of DLC, where Kerry teams up with Raynor and Zeratul to fight some new villains named the UED for no logical reason before flying away and twiddling their thumbs for four effing years.

EDIT: In case it is not obvious, I have very good reasons for pursuing a reboot of the franchise. The writing of BW and SC2 is just awful.

EDIT: To refresh my memory I looked up the video for the LotV story so far, and sure enough the writers butchered the plot of the original SC/BW.


For nearly 300 years, humans thought they were alone in the Koprulu sector. / They were wrong. / The zerg emerged, seeking to consume all in their path. / And before long the protoss, a highly advanced alien race, began wiping out infested worlds, burning zerg and terran alike. / A three-way war… unlike anything humanity had ever faced… / …erupted almost overnight.

All the while… a human civil war raged. / Marshal Jim Raynor vowed to oppose the corrupt dictator Arcturus Mengsk for the betrayal of the woman he loved… Sarah Kerrigan.

Kerrigan: Uh, boys? How about that evac?

Raynor: Damn you, Arcturus! Don't do this.

Mengsk: It's done. Helmsman, signal the fleet and take us out of orbit. Now!

Kerrigan, a loyal operative, was left to die at the hands of the zerg. / But the zerg had other plans. / They transformed her… and unleashed her psionic power upon the Koprulu sector… / …searching for their real objective… / The protoss homeworld of Aiur.

The protoss were unaware of this danger… and slow to respond. / Their rulers, the Conclave, had dispatched Executor Artanis to hunt for Tassadar… / …a commander who had refused to wipe out infested terran worlds.

They crossed paths with a dark templar mystic, whose kind was considered heretics by the Conclave. / Through great effort, Zeratul convinced Tassadar and Artanis that he was not their enemy. / Together they rallied more protoss from both factions against the zerg. / Despite the Conclave’s fury, they achieved significant victories against the Swarm.

But when Zeratul struck down one of the Overmind’s Cerebrates… / …his own mind was left vulnerable. / From his thoughts, the Overmind gleaned Aiur’s true location… / …and the Swarm descended upon the protoss homeworld… / …with all their might and fry.

It was Tassadar who kept the templar from extinction that day. / Using the power of both the templar and the dark templar… / He sacrificed himself to kill the Overmind.

Aiur was lost. / …but Artanis led the survivors to the dark templar’s homeworld of Shakuras. / Old prejudices were set aside. / The templar were now in the dark templar’s debt.

Without the Overmind, the swarm fractured. / Kerrigan sought control of all the zerg… / …even enlisting the aid of old friends and enemies like Raynor, Mensk, and Zeratul.

Once her rule was uncontested… / The Queen of Blades betrayed them all… / Billions of humans and protoss were killed. / The zerg stood unchallenged, but to the relief of all… / The war seemed to end there.

Zeratul suspected the zerg had fallen under the control of dark forces. / He uncovered prophecies stating that an ancient entity, Amon… / …was attempting to merge protoss and zerg life forms into an unholy hybrid. / And that this evil might already have control… / …of Kerrigan and her power.

It was during this time that Executor Artanis, hailed as a hero… / …was made leader of both the templar and the dark templar. / As Hierarch, Artanis united both factions… / …and promised to one day reclaim the glory they had lost on Aiur.

This "story so far" suggests the terran civil war was between Raynor and Mengsk, rather than between the Confederacy and the rebels. It reorders key events (e.g. placing Zasz's death after Zeratul meets with Artanis) and outright ignores the greater context in which these events took place. The brood war is relegated to nothing more than a footnote that makes no sense in this context.

So when I say that Blizzard would completely butcher the story of SC1/BW if remaking it as a consistent prequel to SC2, I was being charitable. They butchered it even worse than my initial suggestion.

[Visions of Khas]

I don't understand the cerebrate wipe. It was part of stone agreement between Blizzard and Games Workshop to distinguish the zerg and Tyranids, something to do with the Norn Queens. But Brood Mothers only resemble the Tyranid Norn Queens even more, not less, than Cerebrates.

[ragnarok]

EDIT: In case it is not obvious, I have very good reasons for pursuing a reboot of the franchise. The writing of BW and SC2 is just awful.

EDIT: To refresh my memory I looked up the video for the LotV story so far, and sure enough the writers butchered the plot of the original SC/BW.


I felt LotV was their attempt to try to remedy the problems in HotS, so I gave them that. If only they had been smarter with HotS.

[Mislagnissa]

I don't understand the cerebrate wipe. It was part of stone agreement between Blizzard and Games Workshop to distinguish the zerg and Tyranids, something to do with the Norn Queens. But Brood Mothers only resemble the Tyranid Norn Queens even more, not less, than Cerebrates.
I do not understand it either. Nothing about that makes any sense.

The relevant similarity between the tyranids and zerg in this context is that both have hive fleets or broods named after monsters from Earth mythology: hive fleet leviathan versus the leviathan brood, for example. Blizzard did not change that, and actually created more similarities as you said.

Cerebrates are copies of the brain bugs from Starship Troopers. The tyranids have "synapse creatures" in the form of warriors and hive tyrants, but the zerg analogue are the overlords and queens. Even the primal zerg pack leaders are closer to the tyranid synapse creatures than the brain bugs. The brood mothers resemble both the tyranid norn queens and the alpha concept art of more insectoid protoss, and have no resemblance to brain bugs.


I felt LotV was their attempt to try to remedy the problems in HotS, so I gave them that. If only they had been smarter with HotS.Which problems? From where I am standing LotV did not fix anything and only created more problems.

Considering the disproportionate popularity of minor characters like Tychus, Abathur and Alarak, the fans of SC never wanted the bland hero narrative we got. They seemingly wanted a bunch of anti-heroes and outright villains as the protagonists.

Every installment of the series has essentially been a completely new story shoehorned into the brand, mutilating the lore in the process. Every single sequel has gone out of its way to sabotage the conflict of its predecessor and pointlessly rewrite the motivations and histories of its factions.

In SC1 the zerg attacked the terrans with the intent to weaponize their latent psychic powers as a trump card against the protoss. While this plot point was seemingly forgotten in the game, the zerg still intended to assimilate the protoss and take over the universe.

In BW, the zerg's intent to assimilate the protoss is completely forgotten in favor of making them Kerry's personal army in her cartoonish evil overlord quest. The addition of Duran's hybrid plot suggests that the zerg's motive to assimilate the protoss was forgotten or retconned away.

In SC2, the zerg's original intent to assimilate the protoss is retconned as being impossible and then the writers contradict themselves by introducing hybrids. There is no logical difference between an assimilated protoss and a hybrid: either zerg and protoss genes are compatible or they are not, but you cannot have it both ways.

The entire social structure and history of the protoss is tossed aside: their history is retconned so that all their achievements occur after the aeon of strife, they are retconned from being in a renaissance to being generic space elves declining because Tolkien did it first, their thousand world empire is reduced to a single planet in the K-sec, their tribal traditions are forgotten, their explicit ethnic diversity is replaced by pallid clones, their caste system is abolished, etc.

The SC lore is not salvageable. There is nowhere to go from here. The only sequel we got was Nova and the Niadra comic, and those felt blatantly artificial. There is no logical reason for the three races to ever interact.

The zerg no longer want to assimilate everything and could not if they did. As of SC2 human genes are completely worthless to the zerg (in contrast to SC1 alpha where those genes were key to the war effort) and protoss cannot be assimilated because plot contrivance (in contrast to SC1 where the zerg intended to assimilate the protoss to become perfect). In fact they have absolutely no purpose to exist beyond eating garbage like the primal zerg do.

Terrans have no reason to interact with the protoss. The beta website suggested that terrans were jealous of the bountiful worlds claimed by the protoss, but as of SC2 the protoss only hold Aiur which is located in the K-sec. They no longer have a reason to wage civil war because Mengsk was the only evil person to ever exist. Gag me with a spork!

The protoss have permanent peace because they severed their telepathic internet, which was superfluous anyway since they were unhappy with it or something similarly stupid. They cannot reproduce anymore and are slowly going extinct or something, but who cares about that? The writers will probably forget it later.

I can only imagine how Blizzard will put together Starcraft 3, if they ever do.

[sandwich_bird]

It's a complete mess anyway - they obviously had no idea what direction to take the story in.

Metzen sounded like he did have a very clear idea of what he wanted but man, he or the team gotta stop changing their minds all the time. I guess this is just a consequence of the long development time that they always go through. No wonder they're going for a hands off approach with Overwatch.

[ragnarok]

Metzen sounded like he did have a very clear idea of what he wanted but man, he or the team gotta stop changing their minds all the time. I guess this is just a consequence of the long development time that they always go through. No wonder they're going for a hands off approach with Overwatch.

Hence why I still believe they had the idea and didn't know how to execute it. Now, if they chose to do SC2 again, it'd be interesting to see if they would learn something

[Turalyon]

Metzen sounded like he did have a very clear idea of what he wanted but man, he or the team gotta stop changing their minds all the time.

Metzen only had a very clear and myopic idea of but one aspect (the Raynor and Kerrigan thing) for the sequel, even though the sequelbait in BW/reason for a sequel to even exist was the Hybrids. Sc2's story is confused since doesn't know which one of these it wants to serve best.

If you attempt to summarise the story as a trilogy, it's difficult because the first two-thirds are about Terran matters or rather, two specific Terrans. Irrespective of ones tastes, this makes you think the whole sequel is about those Terrans/Terran affairs. The last third is completely detached from the first two (and somewhat unnecessary from a certain perspective) but is considered the climax of the "trilogy" even though it hardly features any of the two Terrans it was focused so heavily on in the previous installments. The Epilogue is evidence of the aimlessness of Sc2s narrative since it's a contrived attempt to link the three installments together. It feels unearned because the Terran aspects were so disparate from the Hybrid threat - a threat that was ultimately less dangerous and powerful than Mengsk because it could be defeated in one installment, while Mengsk needed two.

The dissonance is huge because if you followed Sc2 on from BW (as you would considering it's supposed to be experienced sequentially), the Hybrids were/should be the reason and focus of the sequel - and yet it seemingly wasn't. To this day, I still have no idea what the core story of the Sc2 trilogy is really about. :D


No wonder they're going for a hands off approach with Overwatch.

I don't play Overwatch but I think the reason it benefits because there is no concrete big-picture story (that's revealed yet at any rate). Everything about that universe so far is about world-building - there is no narrative as such. It works because there's a great deal of variety in the characters and backgrounds. Although there probably is a concrete history behind it all, not everyone knows it and nor is it that important. This opens it up to interpretation and allows people to invest in the parts of the "story" (if one could call it that) that they're interested in.

[Mislagnissa]

The lesson to be learned from this is that galactic war narratives need to be outlined in advance. Each installment of Starcraft was written on the fly by a different writing team, none of whom cared about consistency. As such, they do not feel cohesive. Each one retcons the events of the previous installments and has a completely different theme. What makes this really frustrating for me personally is that others fans I talk with either do not recognize this or do not care. Most of you guys seem to prefer a Brood War 2, even though BW is inconsistent with SC1 and has massive plot holes which only make sense if Duran is mind-controlling most of the cast to make blatantly stupid decisions (although even that still does not make sense, see my analysis below).

I prefer the reboot outlined in Enumerate, which prioritizes the SC1 manual lore. Yet whenever I tried to get people interested in Enumerate, most of them disliked it because it disregards the queen of blades plot. When I suggested making an original IP that liberally imitates Enumerate (along with my own additions), the response was universally positive. Go figure.

But back to Brood War's plot holes. The plot only happens because of deus ex machinas and characters acting like idiots.

Duran infiltrates Kerry’s inner circle and Kerry brainwashes Raszagal, off-screen, with no explanation, and no point in time that they could have reasonably done those things. Aldaris suspects this, but instead of bringing his concerns to Zeratul and Artanis he starts a civil war. Just when he is about to spill the beans, Kerry shows up unannounced and everyone just stands frozen as she rides in on an overlord, unloads her lurkers, and kills him in the middle of a conversation. Despite this unprovoked act of murder and declaration of war, the protoss merely break their alliance and let her leave unchallenged rather than realizing she killed Aldaris to keep some dangerous secret and interrogating or killing her right then and there.

DuGalle hangs onto Duran’s every word, despite previous stating he hates traitors, against the advice of his childhood friend Alexei. Duran openly betrays Alexei in front of countless witnesses and recording devices, but nobody but Alexei and his forces notice this. DuGalle decides to assassinate Alexei at Duran’s request even though in a realistic world the worst Alexei would get is a court martial or a strongly worded letter of disagreement. Then Alexei uses his last breath to speak a paragraph or two, and then DuGalle realizes Duran was manipulating him the whole time.

Zeratul and Raynor and Mengsk join forces with Kerry, despite no evidence that the UED is any more dangerous than the Dominion and every reason to believe Kerry and the Zerg need to be destroyed.

Brood War does not even make sense if Duran actually is mind controlling everyone, since his mind control has inconsistent effectiveness. He was able to turn DuGalle against his childhood friend, yet unable to stop him from employing the psi-disruptor. Since his mind control is inconsistent, it is impossible to determine which side Duran wanted to win. He was able to control both DuGalle and Kerry with ease, and yet he played them against each other rather than picking one side and conquering the sector with the zerg.

Brood War is also inconsistent about the UED. The SC1 manual took great pains to explain that K-sec was utterly cut off from Earth, then the BW manual spends its first several paragraphs undoing all of that, rendering the SC1 manual backstory pointless. In Heroes of the Storm, this is further retconned so that K-sec was always a colony in contact with Earth. The SC1 manual explained that the UPL were basically Nazis, and Kerry invokes this as a justification for Raynor to side with her. The problem with this is that 1) even Nazis are still better than the zerg that want to eat everyone and 2) the eugenics plot point has seemingly been retconned away since the UED employs the same cyborgs, mutants, criminals, and psychics found in K-sec forces, along with introducing battlefield medics (which is a pretty un-Nazi-like thing to do).

So I am completely mystified as to why anyone would ever want a Brood War 2. Both BW and SC2 have garbage narratives riddled with plot holes; at least in that regard they make perfect sense as part of the same series. It feels to me that everyone who likes BW and wants a “real” sequel is blinded by nostalgia, because that is the only way I can imagine that anyone would let BW’s plot holes slide.

What would even happen in a Brood War 2 that did not already happen in SC2? The Queen of Blades already killed most of the surviving terrans and protoss at the end of BW. The only possible conflict in the sequel would be QoB’s zerg fighting Duran’s hybrids, and regardless of who wins the terrans and protoss would lose. Why would anyone want that? Sure, SC1 was dark and gritty, but it wasn’t pointlessly nihilistic.

[sandwich_bird]

Metzen only had a very clear and myopic idea of but one aspect (the Raynor and Kerrigan thing) for the sequel

There were other plot points he wanted to do as well iirc. I remember him saying he wanted the Terran campaign to be about dethroning Mengsk, the protoss campaign about uniting the different protoss clans(inspired by feudal Japan) and for the zerg to be about Kerrigan gaining more power and finishing Raynor's fight. The Xel Naga and Hybrid plot would slowly build up over the 2 first campaigns and really start in the final protoss story. That was always the plan ever since he first opened his mouth about the story in ~2008. But in any case, you'd be probably right in saying that these other ideas didn't seem really clear compared to the Raynor angle. I was wrong in saying they changed their mind too much though.

I tried googling for that interview that I reference above but couldn't find it. I did find this funny bit though :) :


Finally, Metzen answered a question that's on most fans' minds about the big reveal this weekend: was it the right decision to split the games up? Metzen thinks it was. "As a fictional event," he said, "we can make it like the coolest science fiction thing ever seen in a videogame. Did I just say that?" he asked, and the crowd in attendance applauded. "The freedom is amazing. And you guys are really going to see it. This stuff that we're doing now, Diablo 3 and Starcraft II, is easily the best stuff we've ever done as a virtual experience... Warcraft III doesn't even rate as a Saturday morning cartoon to the themes we're dealing with in these games. I think it's great, and I hope you all agree when it comes out.

The problem was not that they changed their minds too much or that they didn't take the time to outline the big pieces. It's really just that they couldn't look objectively at what they were writing.

[ragnarok]

The problem was not that they changed their minds too much or that they didn't take the time to outline the big pieces. It's really just that they couldn't look objectively at what they were writing.

I always thought they tried compromising too much, hoping it'd satisfy everyone, but it didn't satisfy anyone in the end.

[sandwich_bird]

I always thought they tried compromising too much, hoping it'd satisfy everyone, but it didn't satisfy anyone in the end.

I used to think that too but there was yet another interview with Metzen a while back that confirmed that this was not the case. This one I might be able to find (EDIT: huh nope, can't find it anymore...).

[ragnarok]

I used to think that too but there was yet another interview with Metzen a while back that confirmed that this was not the case. This one I might be able to find (EDIT: huh nope, can't find it anymore...).

Interesting. Out of curiosity, do you remember which year that interview took place?

[Turalyon]

Most of you guys seem to prefer a Brood War 2, even though BW is inconsistent with SC1 and has massive plot holes which only make sense if Duran is mind-controlling most of the cast to make blatantly stupid decisions (although even that still does not make sense, see my analysis below).

Thing is, the apparent inconsistency between Sc1 and BW you mention is not really a issue because it doesn't really break immersion that much. At the least, it has a reasonable continuity of what came before. That's why some of us suggest a "BW2", because that would be more continuous with what came before unlike what Sc2 turned to be or what your revisionist take in Enumerate would be.


I prefer the reboot outlined in Enumerate, which prioritizes the SC1 manual lore.

Oh, really? I had no idea at all! :p:rolleyes::p:rolleyes:


Yet whenever I tried to get people interested in Enumerate, most of them disliked it because it disregards the queen of blades plot. When I suggested making an original IP that liberally imitates Enumerate (along with my own additions), the response was universally positive. Go figure.

No, people had an issue because you originally claimed Enumerate to being Starcraft while it really ain't. Like it or not, Kerrigan/QOB is part of Starcrafts story, so any discussion of Starcrafts story has to include her. It then follows from this that people don't have an issue when you suggested Enumerate was not Starcraft but something of your own devising. Figured!


What would even happen in a Brood War 2 that did not already happen in SC2? The Queen of Blades already killed most of the surviving terrans and protoss at the end of BW. The only possible conflict in the sequel would be QoB’s zerg fighting Duran’s hybrids, and regardless of who wins the terrans and protoss would lose. Why would anyone want that? Sure, SC1 was dark and gritty, but it wasn’t pointlessly nihilistic.

This is partially why I thought Sc's story had ended with BW at the time and why I didn't really want a sequel nor think it was necessary. There was really only one direction it could "realistically" go and you've outlined it pretty much here. Any sequel derived from there that could involve the other two races would only reek of contrivance. Whilst the Hybrids have the the potential to weaken the Zerg enough to even the playing field again, it'd still smack of convenience because the Hybrid threat will have to focus exclusively against the Zerg in order for the even-playing field to comeback because the other two can't beat the Zerg in their BW state, so they surely can't beat the Hybrids either. Also, given that the hybrids are supposed to be a threat to all, they'd have to introduce more Doylist conceits to try and disguise why the hybrids don't crush all three races equally.

I'm one of the rare few who, back in the day, didn't actually want a sequel to BW. It's probably around the time my disdain for sequelitis started growing, too.


I remember him saying he wanted the Terran campaign to be about dethroning Mengsk, the protoss campaign about uniting the different protoss clans(inspired by feudal Japan) and for the zerg to be about Kerrigan gaining more power and finishing Raynor's fight.

Hmmm, seems like a rehash of BW though since the UED dethroned Mengsk, the Protoss were becoming more unified with their dark brethren and the Zerg campaign was about Kerrigan gaining more power and finished Raynor's story arc, too.


The Xel Naga and Hybrid plot would slowly build up over the 2 first campaigns and really start in the final protoss story. That was always the plan ever since he first opened his mouth about the story in ~2008. But in any case, you'd be probably right in saying that these other ideas didn't seem really clear compared to the Raynor angle. I was wrong in saying they changed their mind too much though.

The Hybrid plot didn't build up at all. They were considered tangential and just side-missions in the first two installments. Even in HotS, where the reinfestation of Kerrigan and Skygeirr arc were supposed to be about the Hybrid plot were not but more to do with Kerrigan's revenge plot against the Dominion/Mengsk.


The problem was not that they changed their minds too much or that they didn't take the time to outline the big pieces. It's really just that they couldn't look objectively at what they were writing.

Heh, that quote from Metzen sure does seem like a clear case of HUTA (head up their arses). :p

[Mislagnissa]

the Terran campaign to be about dethroning MengskThere are so many problems with forcing Mengsk into the role of villain. Why is he considered the villain in the first place? Because Raynor has a personal vendetta against him, despite many extenuating factors and their complicated history together.

The Confederacy committed genocide against Korhal. They killed more people than Hitler and Stalin combined. It is understandable that Mengsk wanted revenge. The problem is that 1) he is not the only villain here and 2) the genuinely villainous acts he committed are ignored to focus on his supposed betrayal of Kerry. This despite the fact that the rebels knew the zerg were tracking her ever since she explained how psi-emitters worked. Even if she was evacuated, the zerg would have intercepted the dropship anyway.

Mengsk, and by extension Kerry and Raynor, deliberately and knowingly lured the zerg to Antiga Prime and Tarsonis, resulting in the deaths of billions of innocent people. The purpose of this was to overthrow the Confederacy, but in the end the rebels were no different. Objectively speaking, Raynor is just as much a villain as Mengsk. He made no attempt to stop Mengsk from committing genocide twice. All he cared about was his stupid crush on Kerry, so I hope that genocidal asshole sucks cocks in hell.

Not to mention that Mengsk was considered a good guy in BW despite the UED being obviously heroes and the zerg obviously the threat. This is because 1) the UED's eugenics was seemingly retconned, and 2) there was no way that Raynor being an uneducated hick would know about their crimes from centuries past.

Lastly, there is the problem of logistics and the world building being clearly fake that destroys my suspension of disbelief. In every game the terrans suffer crippling losses, but these are ignored in the subsequent campaigns. In SC1 the zerg ate 90% of the terran population, so there was barely anything for Mengsk to rule. In BW this is ignored, but most of the terran population is eaten by the zerg again. In WoL, this is again ignored. Etc. Realistically, Mengsk should not have ruled much of anything, much less need to be dethroned.


the protoss campaign about uniting the different protoss clans(inspired by feudal Japan)
That sounds genuinely interesting. Unfortunately it has several problems.

1) There is no setup for this in the previous campaigns. SC1 only had a civil war between the orthodox khala and the dark templar's allies, while BW only had Aldaris' idiotic insurrection (did any of his followers even know why they were fighting?). Even so, I could accept a hand wave that the tribes fractured in the wake of the great war due to the zerg waging electronic warfare against the khala or something.

2) While the SC1 manual explains that the protoss tribes had distinct cultures and skin tones, this is never brought up in the games. Because of that, Blizzard generally portrayed the protoss as physically homogenous zombies in artwork and EU materials even before LotV. Even the intro of LotV completely glosses over (or outright retcons) their history by calling the Aiur culture "templar" and their rulers "the conclave," with no words given to explain the greater context.

3) Even ignoring the retcons and supposing that this campaign did incorporate the SC1 manual tribe descriptions, Blizzard is a bunch of incompetent morons who could never possibly do this story justice.


the zerg to be about Kerrigan gaining more power and finishing Raynor's fight
The problem with this is... ugh, where do I begin? The motivations of the zerg have completely changed in every installment. In SC1 they were the big bads who wanted to create hybrids and conquer the universe. In BW they were kerry's pets who helped her kill everyone for no sane reason, while Duran became the big bad evil guy who wanted to create hybrids and conquer the universe. In HotS they were just slaves to whoever was commanding them at the time, whether that be Kerry, Duran or the primal pack leaders.

Kerry has equally inconsistent motivations and no stable characterization. In SC1 she was fanatically devoted to the zerg cause and was obsessed with becoming a better killing machine, to the point that the unstable Zasz (he is literally called "unstable" in his bio) mistook her obsession for disloyalty (at least until the QoB novel rewrote her as trying to usurp him). In BW, she is suddenly an evil overlord with charisma and the ability to suck the intelligence out of her foes. In SC2, she is trying to finish Raynor's quest to overthrow Mengsk?

Kerry is not a character. She is several different characters with the same name and face.


The Xel Naga and Hybrid plot would slowly build up over the 2 first campaigns and really start in the final protoss story.As I said before, every installment of the franchise has essentially been a completely different story that only pays lip service to the previous ones.

The xel'naga/hybrid plot exists solely to introduce a new big bad and displace the original role of the zerg. There is no good reason for any writer to do this unless, like Metzen, they are an idiot who cannot remember what they wrote. The zerg were already plenty sufficient to be the big bads forever. Turning them into heroes (except for the obviously evil primal zerg) is just stupid and destroys what originally made them interesting. This is an RTS where you can embrace your destructive side guilt-free!

The xel'naga/hybrid villains were bland and uninteresting. The zerg were awesome because they were not simply the big bads out to eat everyone: they had alien yet reasonable motivations (achieve perfection) and they were a playable faction. BW and SC2 pissed all over that.


these other ideas didn't seem really clear compared to the Raynor angle.That's putting it mildly. There was no support for a Raynor/Kerry romance in SC1 or BW. This idea originated entirely from the fanfics written at the time.

In fact, when you read the novels it becomes really creepy. When Raynor and Kerry first met, he was aroused by her and then she called him a pig. When he learned she was psychic, his thoughts immediately shifted to his son. Or, to put it in the simplest possible terms, Raynor was sexually attracted to a woman who reminded him of his son, giving his thoughts clear incestuous overtones.


The problem was not that they changed their minds too much or that they didn't take the time to outline the big pieces. It's really just that they couldn't look objectively at what they were writing.
It is a truism that talentless hacks have no awareness of their own incompetence. Metzen is a competent artist, but a really shitty writer. The rest of the writing team makes him look like Shakespeare.


Thing is, the apparent inconsistency between Sc1 and BW you mention is not really a issue because it doesn't really break immersion that much. At the least, it has a reasonable continuity of what came before.
On its own merits, the plot of BW is riddled with plot holes and relies on the characters acting like idiots in order to work. It would break the immersion of any reasonable viewer who is not blinded by nostalgia or a child too young to understand the plot holes. Quick show of hands: how many here played it as a child? *raises hand*

As a sequel to SC1, it makes no sense because it retcons the motivations of the Zerg, introduces new villains out of the woodwork in contradiction to SC1 lore, and pointlessly changes the characterization of returning characters (especially Kerry). It is not a reasonable continuation of what came before, unless you consider blatant retcons as reasonable and I certainly do not.


That's why some of us suggest a "BW2", because that would be more continuous with what came before unlike what Sc2 turned to be or what your revisionist take in Enumerate would be. SC2 is as consistent with BW as BW is with SC1. Blizzard's writing has always been poor and people finally noticed in SC2 only because it had a much bigger budget to work with.

Your statement about BW being more consistent than EN is arbitrary and hypocritical. Every installment of the franchise has been largely inconsistent with its predecessors, but you guys only care about consistency with BW because you feel a nostalgic yearning for it. Enumerate's revisionist take is intended to be consistent with the SC lore introduced in the manual (or even earlier in development) before Metzen assumed full creative control, so claiming it is inconsistent because it does not agree with the inconsistencies introduced by Metzen himself is disingenuous.


No, people had an issue because you originally claimed Enumerate to being Starcraft while it really ain't. Like it or not, Kerrigan/QOB is part of Starcrafts story, so any discussion of Starcrafts story has to include her. It then follows from this that people don't have an issue when you suggested Enumerate was not Starcraft but something of your own devising. Figured!As I said before, SC lore has changed dramatically through development and sequels.

You guys arbitrarily decided that Starcraft revolves around QoB due to your nostalgia goggles and nothing will sway you from that, straggling the franchise in the process and preventing it from ever growing into anything more (as shown in the licensed expansions, which devised their own original stories in the same universe, showing that SC could have been so much more). At that point, calling it "Starcraft" is disingenuous because it is not about a war among the stars. To be accurate, the franchise should really be named "Tabula Rasa" because it is about the adventures of Kerry the bipolar schizophrenic whose primary character trait is literally a lack of identity according to her effing Wikipedia page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Kerrigan#Personality).

Enumerate took cues from the manual and other sources from SC's development. Those sources took priority when it developed a plot bible based on that because that was the only iteration of the lore that was particularly consistent with its own backstory and themes. EN developed with the intent of creating a backdrop that could support a variety of narratives rather than being strangled by the writer's sexual fetish for QoB.

The Adventures of Kerry and Enumerate are both equally valid interpretations of what Starcraft should be, since both of them are completely undeserving of the name "Starcraft." Because all the stories involving QoB have never been particularly good, I have a bias in favor of EN. That you guys accepted EN without complaint as an alternative to Starcraft after a simple brand name change... that is one of the the most asinine, anal-retentive, OCD things I have seen, but I would be a hypocrite if I said I never did the same.


I'm one of the rare few who, back in the day, didn't actually want a sequel to BW. It's probably around the time my disdain for sequelitis started growing, too.I really think the healthiest choice for the franchise is a reboot. We need Starcraft to go back to being about dark and gritty warfare among the stars, not retarded space demons and cartoonish evil overlords.

[sandwich_bird]

Interesting. Out of curiosity, do you remember which year that interview took place?

It was between the release of LotV and the Remaster. Probably in 2016. It was Metzen looking back on the trilogy and iirc he said something along the lines of "the team didn't get why I wanted a weak alcoholic Raynor but I didn't compromise my idea and eventually they kinda got it/understood what I wanted to do". And then there was another interview they did just before the remaster that talked about the development of the original starcraft. In that one, it established that SC1 was born out of compromise in contrast to SC2 which was less democratic.


The Hybrid plot didn't build up at all. They were considered tangential and just side-missions in the first two installments. Even in HotS, where the reinfestation of Kerrigan and Skygeirr arc were supposed to be about the Hybrid plot were not but more to do with Kerrigan's revenge plot against the Dominion/Mengsk.

I don't disagree with you there; all I'm saying is that it was their plan to build up that storyline. But, obviously, they executed poorly on that idea. There was definitely more exposition from wol to hots to lotv but that doesn't mean anything is actually building up.



There are so many problems with forcing Mengsk into the role of villain. Why is he considered the villain in the first place? Because Raynor has a personal vendetta against him, despite many extenuating factors and their complicated history together.

The Confederacy committed genocide against Korhal. They killed more people than Hitler and Stalin combined. It is understandable that Mengsk wanted revenge. The problem is that 1) he is not the only villain here and 2) the genuinely villainous acts he committed are ignored to focus on his supposed betrayal of Kerry. This despite the fact that the rebels knew the zerg were tracking her ever since she explained how psi-emitters worked. Even if she was evacuated, the zerg would have intercepted the dropship anyway.

Mengsk, and by extension Kerry and Raynor, deliberately and knowingly lured the zerg to Antiga Prime and Tarsonis, resulting in the deaths of billions of innocent people. The purpose of this was to overthrow the Confederacy, but in the end the rebels were no different. Objectively speaking, Raynor is just as much a villain as Mengsk. He made no attempt to stop Mengsk from committing genocide twice. All he cared about was his stupid crush on Kerry, so I hope that genocidal asshole sucks cocks in hell.

Not to mention that Mengsk was considered a good guy in BW despite the UED being obviously heroes and the zerg obviously the threat. This is because 1) the UED's eugenics was seemingly retconned, and 2) there was no way that Raynor being an uneducated hick would know about their crimes from centuries past.

Lastly, there is the problem of logistics and the world building being clearly fake that destroys my suspension of disbelief. In every game the terrans suffer crippling losses, but these are ignored in the subsequent campaigns. In SC1 the zerg ate 90% of the terran population, so there was barely anything for Mengsk to rule. In BW this is ignored, but most of the terran population is eaten by the zerg again. In WoL, this is again ignored. Etc. Realistically, Mengsk should not have ruled much of anything, much less need to be dethroned.

I honestly never saw Mengsk as a "bad guy" until the EU and SC2 clearly made him as such. He was definitely more grey than black. Making him a main antagonist is fine imo. If the author wants to tell the story from Raynor's emotional point of view then so be it but painting Mengsk as a clear villain just removes the complexity of the character. As you mention, Raynor is directly responsible for pretty much everything bad the Mengsk ever did so they could have played that angle a lot better. There are so many cool dramatic interactions they could have done between the 2 because of this.. Once again, it's really just the execution that was horrible.


There is no setup for this in the previous campaigns. SC1 only had a civil war between the orthodox khala and the dark templar's allies, while BW only had Aldaris' idiotic insurrection (did any of his followers even know why they were fighting?). Even so, I could accept a hand wave that the tribes fractured in the wake of the great war due to the zerg waging electronic warfare against the khala or something.


IIRC the reasoning was that after losing Tassadar, Aldaris, Raszagal and Zeratul, the different tribes just split apart because there was no leader holding them together anymore. Artanis' job would have been to unite them again. I'm guessing that entire plot line was more or less recycled into that comic that comes before lotv.

[Mislagnissa]

It was between the release of LotV and the Remaster. Probably in 2016. It was Metzen looking back on the trilogy and iirc he said something along the lines of "the team didn't get why I wanted a weak alcoholic Raynor but I didn't compromise my idea and eventually they kinda got it/understood what I wanted to do". And then there was another interview they did just before the remaster that talked about the development of the original starcraft. In that one, it established that SC1 was born out of compromise in contrast to SC2 which was less democraticWas it this one (https://www.polygon.com/2015/11/6/9670176/starcraft-2-future-history-dlc-blizzard)?


IIRC the reasoning was that after losing Tassadar, Aldaris, Raszagal and Zeratul, the different tribes just split apart because there was no leader holding them together anymore. Artanis' job would have been to unite them again. I'm guessing that entire plot line was more or less recycled into that comic that comes before lotv.That makes absolutely no sense. The protoss backstory established that the tribes were united by a telepathic internet called the khala. Clearly Metzen forgot what he wrote, again. One the biggest problems afflicting the protoss is that writers never seem to understand the khala!

[ragnarok]

IIRC the reasoning was that after losing Tassadar, Aldaris, Raszagal and Zeratul, the different tribes just split apart because there was no leader holding them together anymore. Artanis' job would have been to unite them again. I'm guessing that entire plot line was more or less recycled into that comic that comes before lotv.

Well yes and it was why I had believed after the BW (before any info on SC2 came out) the Protoss would have descended into total civil war all over again for competing leadership.


I don't disagree with you there; all I'm saying is that it was their plan to build up that storyline. But, obviously, they executed poorly on that idea. There was definitely more exposition from wol to hots to lotv but that doesn't mean anything is actually building up.

Yeah fans wrote theories regarding the hybrid after the BW. Me, I suspected they'd be used to control the zerg, but not like the way SC2 did it. As weapons of war, we all knew it'd happen, but SC2 made the hybrids much weaker than we had wanted them to be.

[Turalyon]

There are so many problems with forcing Mengsk into the role of villain. Why is he considered the villain in the first place?

It was due solely to his "reveal" rant in The Hammer Falls that has forevermore marked him as a "villain". Mind you, I have railed against that proposition in past discussions here.

Sc1 was great in it depiction of its moral greyness. There were no actual villains or heroes in the original Sc and all were compromised to some degree. The application of moral value on a characters actions was all just a matter of perspective/dependent on the observer/audience member, not due to or forced by authorial intent (like it unfortunately is with Sc2).


Lastly, there is the problem of logistics and the world building being clearly fake that destroys my suspension of disbelief. In every game the terrans suffer crippling losses, but these are ignored in the subsequent campaigns. In SC1 the zerg ate 90% of the terran population, so there was barely anything for Mengsk to rule. In BW this is ignored, but most of the terran population is eaten by the zerg again. In WoL, this is again ignored. Etc. Realistically, Mengsk should not have ruled much of anything, much less need to be dethroned.

The Terrans have always been weak though and were never on equal footing with the Zerg or Protoss. So, as much as you would like to believe Starcraft is about a en equal three-way war, the Terrans were always on the backfoot. That's why Earth is potentially important in terms of "logistics" and maintaining the plausibility of continuing this three-way (and it being more equal) because it would give the Terran power a shot-in-the-arm. It's also why it feels unbelievable how the Terrans in general (Mengsk specifically) is able to endlessly rebound and grow even stronger as it is depicted somewhat in BW and to absurd levels in Sc2.

Really, this issue pervades the Protoss as well by the end of BW. The status quo of this "equal three-way conflict" that was Starcraft had not only shifted but was seemingly smashed into disrepair with the Zerg being so dominant. Generally speaking, narratives that feature such seemingly huge irreversible status quo swings like this are often hallmarks of it reaching a climax and or conclusion to that narrative. That's why I thought BW should have been the end at the time.


The motivations of the zerg have completely changed in every installment.

Well, that's kinda justified between Sc1 and BW cos of the Overmind dying and all...


The xel'naga/hybrid plot exists solely to introduce a new big bad and displace the original role of the zerg.

Authorial intents aside, they serve mechanically as sequel-bait in terms of narrative. Because BW had out-and-out made the Zerg the victors in this three-way tussle, something else was needed to reign in the power of the Zerg. Sure, they could've come up with another conceit but by this point, conceits are all you can realistically come up with to "justify" a continuation. Sequelitis is very real, people!


In fact, when you read the novels it becomes really creepy. When Raynor and Kerry first met, he was aroused by her and then she called him a pig. When he learned she was psychic, his thoughts immediately shifted to his son. Or, to put it in the simplest possible terms, Raynor was sexually attracted to a woman who reminded him of his son, giving his thoughts clear incestuous overtones.

I haven't read it but have you perhaps mistakenly misinterpreted this? Raynor's shift in thoughts to his son after being psychically outed for having sexual thoughts about Kerrigan could be an attempt of Raynor trying to think "unsexy thoughts" and not that he has incestuous sexual thoughts about his son.


On its own merits, the plot of BW is riddled with plot holes and relies on the characters acting like idiots in order to work. It would break the immersion of any reasonable viewer who is not blinded by nostalgia or a child too young to understand the plot holes.

In its defence, I could easily make the same generalisation to all fictional works in existence. I won't because I know that I speak only for myself....


As a sequel to SC1, it makes no sense because it retcons the motivations of the Zerg, introduces new villains out of the woodwork in contradiction to SC1 lore, and pointlessly changes the characterization of returning characters (especially Kerry). It is not a reasonable continuation of what came before, unless you consider blatant retcons as reasonable and I certainly do not.

There is no "retcon" of the motivation of the Zerg between Sc1 and BW. They suffered a major defeat (the death of the Overmind) that redefined their nature in a way that was never seen/knowable before. You have to expect some consequence/change from this. Just because it didn't meet your expectation of what that change was, doesn't mean the change/difference in and of itself is wrong. What's "reasonable" is subjective but it still was continuous regardless.


Your statement about BW being more consistent than EN is arbitrary and hypocritical. Every installment of the franchise has been largely inconsistent with its predecessors, but you guys only care about consistency with BW because you feel a nostalgic yearning for it. Enumerate's revisionist take is intended to be consistent with the SC lore introduced in the manual (or even earlier in development) before Metzen assumed full creative control, so claiming it is inconsistent because it does not agree with the inconsistencies introduced by Metzen himself is disingenuous.

Don't strawman me, it's beneath you. I said continuous not consistent. They are sometimes used interchangeably (and incorrectly) but there is a difference. Learn it.

I (nor anyone else that I can recall) never strongly suggested that Enumerate was inconsistent nor incompatible with the manual either. Besides, we've established previously the manual itself is unclear and perhaps inconsistent with somethings in and of itself, too.

Also, be careful of who you accuse of being disingenuous. I could easily accuse you of doing the same since your arguments are clearly based off subjective bias, generalisation and wilfull misinterpretation of other peoples intent yet then assume your own position as some unassailable objective authority.... but I'm not going to. Lucky for me, right? ;)


You guys arbitrarily decided that Starcraft revolves around QoB due to your nostalgia goggles and nothing will sway you from that

You argue like those Sc2 defenders and like them, you fail to understand the position before strawmanning away. Like it or not, Starcraft and its story at the time is the combination of the manual and the game. No-one really cares if there was supposed retcons between the manual and the game (or even before that in development) since they ultimately both came out at the same time and it's largely continuous with each other. Also, what's memorable to the majority is the game itself, not the manual. As such, Kerrigan can be considered as being part of the core of what Starcraft is. It's not up to you or me to say otherwise, it just is. If you deem the first iteration of Starcraft as not being Starcraft, that's not my or anyone elses problem, it's just yours!


That you guys accepted EN without complaint as an alternative to Starcraft after a simple brand name change... that is one of the the most asinine, anal-retentive, OCD things I have seen, but I would be a hypocrite if I said I never did the same.

The key words here being "alternative to Starcraft" is important. Acknowledging it as being fanon, like all the rest of us do, is fine. Acknowledging it as Starcraft, as if "Starcraft" has some universal objective value (which somehow is spuriously consistent with your subjective opinion of what "Starcraft" is) is entirely another thing.


I really think the healthiest choice for the franchise is a reboot. We need Starcraft to go back to being about dark and gritty warfare among the stars, not retarded space demons and cartoonish evil overlords.

Eh, my choice is for it do just die already. That was my original position from BW and I've regressed back to it even more to that original position due to being vindicated with Sc2 and that I've learnt over the intervening years that sequels generally seem to suck as a rule of thumb. :D


That makes absolutely no sense. The protoss backstory established that the tribes were united by a telepathic internet called the khala.

But the Dark Templar don't have access to that "telepathic internet". Besides, even with the Khala, Protoss can opt out of it with their own free will at any time of their choosing. I like how this being the cause of the Aeon of Strife can be interpreted as a subtle and probably unintended rebuke of individualism.

[Mislagnissa]

There is no "retcon" of the motivation of the Zerg between Sc1 and BW. They suffered a major defeat (the death of the Overmind) that redefined their nature in a way that was never seen/knowable before. You have to expect some consequence/change from this. Just because it didn't meet your expectation of what that change was, doesn't mean the change/difference in and of itself is wrong. What's "reasonable" is subjective but it still was continuous regardless.

This is contradicted by both the original manual and the primal zerg (who are taken directly from a paragraph in the original manual, but with absurdities like jungle Zerus and talking muppets tacked on). In both the original manual and the observed behavior of the primal zerg, their basic instincts are to consume all other life in pursuit of perfection. The Overmind, as a zerg organism, shared those instincts and by unifying the zerg it allowed them to achieve heights they never could have otherwise. The retcon here is that Kerry suddenly loses this instinct in BW and the "corrupted" zerg lose it in SC2 as part of an absurd plan to make them heroes, when their original allure was that they were the villains of the story.


Eh, my choice is for it do just die already. That was my original position from BW and I've regressed back to it even more to that original position due to being vindicated with Sc2 and that I've learnt over the intervening years that sequels generally seem to suck as a rule of thumb.What do you think of a clone/rip-off/spiritual successor?

Atrox and Starfront are both blatant clones of Starcraft, but I do not consider them spiritual successors because they lack much of any story that I could find on google or watching let's plays. I thought the thematic conflicts of Starcraft were freedom versus control, individualism versus conformity, unity versus diversity, moral ambiguity/dilemma, etc. The sorts of timeless, universal concepts that inform the human condition and were entirely absent from BW and SC2. A spiritual successor needs to explore those themes.

[Turalyon]

The retcon here is that Kerry suddenly loses this instinct in BW and the "corrupted" zerg lose it in SC2 as part of an absurd plan to make them heroes, when their original allure was that they were the villains of the story.

Kerrigan didn't "gain" the "Zerg instinct" when she was infested, nor did she subsequently "lose" it when the Overmind died since the Overmind itself says that the "greatness of her spirit has been left to her". I'm not going to defend the Sc2 Primal Zerg because they are indeed an additive retcon.


What do you think of a clone/rip-off/spiritual successor?

I wouldn't mind new IPs that drew inspiration from previous works. Everything is derivative of something or another/there's nothing original at the end of the day, it's all just a matter of how well one can put their own spin on it.


I thought the thematic conflicts of Starcraft were freedom versus control, individualism versus conformity, unity versus diversity, moral ambiguity/dilemma, etc. The sorts of timeless, universal concepts that inform the human condition and were entirely absent from BW and SC2. A spiritual successor needs to explore those themes.

Yeah, but those classic themes are not owned by/restricted to Starcraft alone. These concepts are focused alot and a cornerstone for the science-fiction genre generally though.

BW, like any other sequel/prequel really, suffers from familiarity and riding on the coat-tails of what succeeded previously. It's continuation for the sake of continuation. SC1 could've really just ended where it did without a sequel and it'd still be fine/hold up on its own. It wasn't really necessary to go on since the themes don't need any more exploring and the three-way conflict reached an equilibrium. You could have more of the same but why bother? You've already got the original, what's the point of making a sequel to ape the same themes again? Therefore, I don't mind BW being different from what came before because it's sort've justified given the huge amount of change and consequence brought on by what had happened during Sc1. BW's end, to me, seemed much more definite than Sc1s though given that the status quo had shifted notably and seemingly irreversibly. I knew then that nothing short of contrivance would make a sequel possible and that the rot of sequelitis would be more notable if a sequel were made. Lo and behold, Sc2 proved me right unfortunately.

[Mislagnissa]

Kerrigan didn't "gain" the "Zerg instinct" when she was infested, nor did she subsequently "lose" it when the Overmind died since the Overmind itself says that the "greatness of her spirit has been left to her". I'm not going to defend the Sc2 Primal Zerg because they are indeed an additive retcon.Episode 2 Kerry acted and talked exactly like the primal zerg do, and demonstrated absolutely none of the "spirit" she had as a human being. Infestation caused her to experience severe mental retardation in addition to destroying her original personality. She desired nothing more than to become a better killing machine, and the only difference from the primal zerg was that she wanted to serve the Swarm rather than herself. The only "spirit" she demonstrated was religious zealotry and taking offense whenever Zasz questioned her insane devotion (and Zasz' official bio states that all other cerebrates find him unstable and whiny).

Without the Overmind, it does not make sense she would suddenly prioritize a desire to conquer the sector over bettering the Swarm by eating the universe. That is a massive downgrade in ambition and bloodlust. She sounds like a different character entirely.

Everything the writers tried to use Kerry for was done vastly better by characters in other fiction: Locutus of Borg, Seven of Nine, Illyria, Amaru, Ripley 8, etc. Locutus of Borg, in particular, not only served as a public face to the Federation but the Borg used his knowledge of Federation tactics to fight more efficiently.

[ragnarok]

Kerrigan didn't "gain" the "Zerg instinct" when she was infested, nor did she subsequently "lose" it when the Overmind died since the Overmind itself says that the "greatness of her spirit has been left to her". I'm not going to defend the Sc2 Primal Zerg because they are indeed an additive retcon.


Here's how I saw it, Tura: if you want to ignore the primal zerg, that's fine. Hell I personally felt that had nothing to do with Kerrigan's mentality in the first place.

You and I both know all of us have a dark side. You can suppress it and pretend not to see it, but you can't get rid of it. It'll be there no matter what, regardless of whether you slam the door on it or not. The whole infestation process merely forced that door open. The Q here is did she choose to walk through it, or was she manipulated to.

If it was the former all the way through WoL, it's hard to argue the latter in HotS. After all, only after meeting up with Raynor on the Moros again did Kerrigan finally try to distance herself from it all. While unsaid, it was obvious Raynor wanted to say she should have been smarter.

[ragnarok]

Everything the writers tried to use Kerry for was done vastly better by characters in other fiction: Locutus of Borg, Seven of Nine, Illyria, Amaru, Ripley 8, etc. Locutus of Borg, in particular, not only served as a public face to the Federation but the Borg used his knowledge of Federation tactics to fight more efficiently.

I'm really unsure what you saw in Ripley 8 (but then again it's been years since I watched Alien Resurrection, most said it was the worst Alien film). Personally I felt they still didn't understand the xenomorph enough to simply assume "your humanity is stronger" concept introduced there. Hell, given that, I got the feeling Blizzard tried to implement the same concept, but what would happen if it was proven false.

[Turalyon]

demonstrated absolutely none of the "spirit" she had as a human being.

I like to think the "spirit" that the Overmind refers to is not related to her "humanity" but to the "darkness" she has never fully embraced (as mentioned at in the manual description of the character). Afterall, she is a willing assassin under the employ of Mengsk and it takes a certain kind of mind to continue being one/to consciously kill people of ones own free will, let alone a very good one which she apparently was.


She desired nothing more than to become a better killing machine, and the only difference from the primal zerg was that she wanted to serve the Swarm rather than herself.

This can be construed as her having embraced the dark aspect of her true nature. The Zerg "helped" her to do that.


Without the Overmind, it does not make sense she would suddenly prioritize a desire to conquer the sector over bettering the Swarm by eating the universe. That is a massive downgrade in ambition and bloodlust. She sounds like a different character entirely.

That's the thing - it's not a change/downgrade, but her actually being consistent. Like I said above, the Zerg freed her nature somewhat but she was still controlled by the Zerg. BW then reveals that Kerrigan, freed from all restriction and denial, is really an abhorrent monster at heart - I like to think that that's the "true nature" that the manual refers to. The events that have happened to her eventually lead to the stripping away of all the things that held her back/enslaved (the Confederacy, Mengsk and the Overmind) her true dark nature. I never saw her as a kind, good girl since that perspective is a facile and demeaning portrayal of all female characters in fiction and ignores the fact that anyone willing to continue being an assassin despite paying lip-service to morality is a portrait of a disturbed mind, not a "good/decent" person.

[Mislagnissa]

I like to think the "spirit" that the Overmind refers to is not related to her "humanity" but to the "darkness" she has never fully embraced (as mentioned at in the manual description of the character). Afterall, she is a willing assassin under the employ of Mengsk and it takes a certain kind of mind to continue being one/to consciously kill people of ones own free will, let alone a very good one which she apparently was.



This can be construed as her having embraced the dark aspect of her true nature. The Zerg "helped" her to do that.



That's the thing - it's not a change/downgrade, but her actually being consistent. Like I said above, the Zerg freed her nature somewhat but she was still controlled by the Zerg. BW then reveals that Kerrigan, freed from all restriction and denial, is really an abhorrent monster at heart - I like to think that that's the "true nature" that the manual refers to. The events that have happened to her eventually lead to the stripping away of all the things that held her back/enslaved (the Confederacy, Mengsk and the Overmind) her true dark nature. I never saw her as a kind, good girl since that perspective is a facile and demeaning portrayal of all female characters in fiction and ignores the fact that anyone willing to continue being an assassin despite paying lip-service to morality is a portrait of a disturbed mind, not a "good/decent" person.

That is called "the ends justify the means" and it is a real belief that every single rebellion has held. That internal conflict made Kerry an interesting character with depth. QoB is a generic cartoon villain with nothing interesting going for her. You could have replaced her with a pure zerg creature and nothing would have changed.

There are many ways that QoB could have been written with depth. Instead of just turning her into a rage monster or an evil overlord (and no, that is not a consistent portrayal; numerous discussions on other forums and her wikipedia page outright states that her characterization is not consistent), all of her personality traits could have been exaggerated and she could have put her intelligence and training to the zerg's use. She could have, I don't know, believed that infesting and assimilating mankind was a genuinely good and compassionate thing to do. Her personality could have been playful and bubbly and gleefully murderous like Harley Quin. She could have been sarcastic and deadpan and make witty observations about her surroundings. Something more interesting than "grr! argh! I wanna kill! Don't question me!"

Le sigh. This argument is pointless. I find it more constructive to write my own story.

[Gradius]

You haven’t explained what’s inconsistent about it. SC2 is inconsistent. SC1 is pretty straightforward.

[Mislagnissa]

You haven’t explained what’s inconsistent about it. SC2 is inconsistent. SC1 is pretty straightforward.

I tried to explain what was inconsistent about Kerry's personality multiple times in the past, but nobody actually cares to change their mind unless they are on spacebattles where everybody ganged up on the bad writing in the entire franchise. In every game and novel where Kerry appeared, she had a completely different personality from her other appearances. Speaking solely of SC1 and BW, she is three different characters.

Human Kerry is psychologically damaged from psychosurgery and Mengsk's clearly deranged treatment of her.

In the Uprising novel, Mengsk casually murders the two other ghosts who assassinated his family right in front of Kerry while telling them they are pawns who don't remember it. Then he tells Kerry she was the third ghost and that he forgives her, but she won't be happy until she forgives herself. That is fucking insane and would not inspire loyalty in any remotely sane person.

In SC1, she constantly struggles between her compassion for humanity and the rebellion's war crimes. This becomes a point of tension between her and Mengsk, so him leaving her to die makes sense in this regard (aside from him being fucking insane).

After infestation, she becomes a completely new character. Where Kerry was calm, collected, and intelligent, QoB is nothing more than a bloodthirsty religious zealot drunk on power and easily manipulated by appealing to her base emotions. She religiously follows the zerg cause (conquer the observable universe, diameter 91 billion light years) and desires to become a better killing machine in order to better serve that cause, and responds violently whenever anyone questions her devotion or tells her she is less than perfect.

In BW, QoB has become a completely different character. She is calm, collected, sadistic, alternates between snarky and campy one-liners, and her ambitions have shrunk from "consume all life in the universe and become God" to "kill most of the people in K-sec and rule the ashes for the lulz". She is not smarter or a tactician, since all her manipulations only work because the plot says so while Duran and the cerebrate PC does all the work for her. The characters themselves even comment on the foolishness of helping her (no Metzen, having your characters lampshade your plot holes does not fix them).

But it doesn't matter how many arguments I make. As far as you guys are concerned, SC1 and BW is immune to criticism. I think anyone of us here could do a better job.

[ragnarok]

In BW, QoB has become a completely different character. She is calm, collected, sadistic, alternates between snarky and campy one-liners, and her ambitions have shrunk from "consume all life in the universe and become God" to "kill most of the people in K-sec and rule the ashes for the lulz". She is not smarter or a tactician, since all her manipulations only work because the plot says so while Duran and the cerebrate PC does all the work for her. The characters themselves even comment on the foolishness of helping her (no Metzen, having your characters lampshade your plot holes does not fix them).

But it doesn't matter how many arguments I make. As far as you guys are concerned, SC1 and BW is immune to criticism. I think anyone of us here could do a better job.

Didn't you feel the way she acted in BW was different because of the lack of the Overmind's influence? She was telling the truth to Artanis and Zeratul back then if the 2nd Overmind reached maturity, it'd gain control of her.

[Gradius]

We’ve been talking about how inferior BW is on these forums for 15+ years. Nobody needs convincing. That being said, the logic that the Overmind doesn’t control her anymore and she acts differently isn’t really a pressing issue whatsoever...


After infestation, she becomes a completely new character.
Well no crap, because that’s what the plot is and the whole point. This is your argument? Really? -_-

[Mislagnissa]

Didn't you feel the way she acted in BW was different because of the lack of the Overmind's influence? She was telling the truth to Artanis and Zeratul back then if the 2nd Overmind reached maturity, it'd gain control of her.

I have already tried arguing about this on numerous occasions only to be shot down every single time. The manual explicitly states that the Overmind is the personification of the instincts and drives of all zerg, so saying it controls the zerg makes about as much sense as saying you control yourself, at least prior to Metzen's retarded retcons that it was giant brain created by Amon to enslave the zerg. The SC lore is so stupid, vague and inconsistent that you can argue anything. Every time I say one thing with citations in the lore you guys say another with different citations. I am sick of it.

Starcraft could have been an awesome multimedia franchise with a rich and vivid lore that supported all sorts of interesting narratives against a backdrop of galactic war. Instead, Metzen kept carving away everything that made it interesting in favor of shlock. Now that lore is boring, stagnant and dead with no possible way to salvage it. Blizzard has no interest in future mission packs and now profits from warchests and co-op commanders. The modding community is on life support at this point because the story is so terrible few people want to waste time using the awful galaxy editor. The multiplayer and esports scene is losing out to MOBAs, with only South Korean television stations keeping it alive.

I can't ever get interested in Warhammer 40k because Starcraft 1's fascinating introduction to the zerg personalities spoiled me. The tyranids are just dumb bugs with absolutely no personality or anything interesting going for them besides being the only faction which cannot really be construed at outright evil; the DoW2 tyranid campaign was a joke. Games Workshop is only interested in the Imperium while other factions are consigned to the dust bin; they really shot themselves in the foot by introducing so many factions and being unable to adequately support them all.

So I am going to make my own Starcraft with blackjack and hookers. I know nothing about game design and I have no money to fund development, so the only thing I really can do is write a novel and hope a publisher picks it up and that it gets popular enough to support a multimedia franchise.

On the upside, life extension will probably develop within my lifetime and I will have an endless amount of time to plot my revenge against Metzen by turning the memory of him and his work into a laughingstock forever.

[ragnarok]

I have already tried arguing about this on numerous occasions only to be shot down every single time. The manual explicitly states that the Overmind is the personification of the instincts and drives of all zerg, so saying it controls the zerg makes about as much sense as saying you control yourself, at least prior to Metzen's retarded retcons that it was giant brain created by Amon to enslave the zerg. The SC lore is so stupid, vague and inconsistent that you can argue anything. Every time I say one thing with citations in the lore you guys say another with different citations. I am sick of it.


The personification of the instincts and drives of all zerg is only what's true as of that moment. You're acting like because that's what it had been in the manual, it has to hold true forever. This is a reason why I don't hold as much criticism for the so-called retcons SC2 introduced.

[Gradius]

I have already tried arguing about this on numerous occasions only to be shot down every single time. The manual explicitly states that the Overmind is the personification of the instincts and drives of all zerg, so saying it controls the zerg makes about as much sense as saying you control yourself.
No, for the 90th time, this is not how it works. If it was, we wouldn’t have characters like Zasz or Daggoth.

[Mislagnissa]

No, for the 90th time, this is not how it works. If it was, we wouldn’t have characters like Zasz or Daggoth.

It creates subsidiary personalities capable of growth and change and sibling rivalry, yes, but all of them are fanatically loyal to the zerg cause (eat everything, become perfect). The Overmind serves the role of a conscience and loving father figure to them, but otherwise they seem to act with the illusion of free will.

[Turalyon]

That is called "the ends justify the means" and it is a real belief that every single rebellion has held. That internal conflict made Kerry an interesting character with depth. QoB is a generic cartoon villain with nothing interesting going for her. You could have replaced her with a pure zerg creature and nothing would have changed.

The "ends justify the means"/utilitarian mentality can be attributed to Mengsk, but not really to Kerrigan. Human Kerrigan in Sc1 was just a vapid character who's supposed bleeding heart concern for others stood out only because she happened to also be a girl. Really, she's nothing more but a naive and blind child who only paid lip-service to morality since she was murdering people by her own volition at the behest of another person without any sign of remorse. When she does voice some concern about mass-murder the first time in Sc1, she proceeds to do nothing more and allows a heinous warcrime to continue. She then deludes herself by justifying and defending the same warcrime later on despite her so-called resistance. Raynor, at the least, has the honest excuse of sticking along with the SoK only because he wants to get into that skin-tight suit of hers not because of any "assumed" higher moral cause.

To me, there was no internal conflict beyond her just trying to deny the darkness within her (and weakly at that) and that she is complicit and tacitly condones those dark actions of murder/mass-murder. I like to think that she realised her own complicity and naivete at that moment when she was abandoned at Tarsonis and facing her own mortality. Like anyone coming to dawn on the realisation that the situation they eventually find themselves in was due to their own folly and naivete, anger and rage quickly follows. Kerrigan became something else in that moment - it was just unfortunate that she didn't die then but instead was given power overwhelming by the Zerg. This would inform her continued rage in BW because now she was truly free for the first time (enslaved by the Confederacy, manipulated by Mengsk and even made to enjoy her servitude by the Overmind). All she has is resentment for being controlled all her life up to that point and now that she's free, the need to also not ever be in a position to be controlled again. Her story is of the abused becoming the abuser.


QoB is a generic cartoon villain with nothing interesting going for her.

She could have, I don't know, believed that infesting and assimilating mankind was a genuinely good and compassionate thing to do. Her personality could have been playful and bubbly and gleefully murderous like Harley Quin. She could have been sarcastic and deadpan and make witty observations about her surroundings. Something more interesting than "grr! argh! I wanna kill! Don't question me!"

If she was either of these other things, I'm sure that someone else will bemoan how "generic" and "cartoon" she was just as much as you do about the Kerrigan we did get. None of these traits are particularly interesting in and of themselves and they're really just affectations hiding some other underlying reason. Kerrigan's murderous rage is an affectation to be sure but not without underlying reason. Kerrigan is an enraged killer when "free" in BW because she was made to be a killer and abused her whole life - it's as simple as that. She's just doing all she's ever known to do but now with (dark) honesty - without delusions, denial or restrictions.

[sandwich_bird]

Was it this one?

That's the one I was thinking of but there's nothing in there that supports what I said. Either I remember it wrong or I mixed things up and it was actually a different article.


Kerrigan is an enraged killer when "free" in BW because she was made to be a killer and abused her whole life - it's as simple as that. She's just doing all she's ever known to do but now with (dark) honesty - without delusions, denial or restrictions.

That is probably true but the game exposes this very poorly. I can see how people had a hard time understanding Kerrigan's personality and why someone would call it inconsistent. I'd be the first to question it. That's honestly one of SC1 main flaw imo; you have to dig into the extra material to understand a lot of what is going on and draw your own conclusions. Things don't have to be crystal clear but if the gameplay involves heavy story telling sequences then the in-game story should at the very least be self-sufficient.

[Nissa]

I dunno, to me Kerrigan was always crystal clear. She was abused as a human, so as a Zerg she's trying to do her best to punish anyone who hurt her in the past, as well as become as untouchable as possible.

[ragnarok]

I dunno, to me Kerrigan was always crystal clear. She was abused as a human, so as a Zerg she's trying to do her best to punish anyone who hurt her in the past, as well as become as untouchable as possible.

NOBODY is considered untouchable. Prior to any info given to us in HotS, by the end of WoL she could have said (though most wouldn't be convinced) it was merely the zerg messing with her head. I didn't like the whole memory loss in HotS, but I had at least expected someone to tell her in HotS that the memory loss does NOT absolve her.

[sandwich_bird]

I dunno, to me Kerrigan was always crystal clear. She was abused as a human, so as a Zerg she's trying to do her best to punish anyone who hurt her in the past, as well as become as untouchable as possible.

As far as I remember, there's like one line about the abuse in the entirety of the game. It's when Raynor tries to talk her out of going after the protoss in EP1. You don't really know much more than the confeds have been bad on her and Mengsk rescued her. If you base yourself only on that, it's not that obvious that she's actually a psychopath.

[ragnarok]

As far as I remember, there's like one line about the abuse in the entirety of the game. It's when Raynor tries to talk her out of going after the protoss in EP1. You don't really know much more than the confeds have been bad on her and Mengsk rescued her. If you base yourself only on that, it's not that obvious that she's actually a psychopath.

It was somewhat explained what the Confederacy did to her in the Uprising book, sandwich bird. Did you ever read it?

[Gradius]

It creates subsidiary personalities capable of growth and change and sibling rivalry, yes, but all of them are fanatically loyal to the zerg cause (eat everything, become perfect). The Overmind serves the role of a conscience and loving father figure to them, but otherwise they seem to act with the illusion of free will.
Then that's not consistent with your impression. If you think the Overmind is the "personification of the instincts and drives of all zerg" and doesn't actually control anything, then the swarm wouldn't act in unity and Zasz wouldn't have shut up and immediately changed his mind when the Overmind told him to. The Overmind tells the distinct personalities in the swarm where to go, and what to do, just like he did with Kerrigan. The fanon that you have in mind on the other hand is nice, but isn't actually StarCraft.

[Turalyon]

That is probably true but the game exposes this very poorly. I can see how people had a hard time understanding Kerrigan's personality and why someone would call it inconsistent. I'd be the first to question it. That's honestly one of SC1 main flaw imo; you have to dig into the extra material to understand a lot of what is going on and draw your own conclusions. Things don't have to be crystal clear but if the gameplay involves heavy story telling sequences then the in-game story should at the very least be self-sufficient.

Part of the "inconsistency" is due somewhat to the complication of her having been infested. One can explain away the different personality when we see her as the Queen of Blades in the Overmind campaign as her being warped by the process, with it still affecting her even with the Overmind being dead in BW. I dislike this as the "real" reason though since it overtly suggests convenience/Doylist artifice/plot device, much in the way how the artifact makes her capable of being good again in Sc2. I also think that the character being female also makes one lean favourably to thinking that the character is nice at its core, because you know, sexism and all. It's like, if it was a nice guy going all evil, no problems there, but if it's a nice girl going all evil, it's like "oh no, no, no, that's impossible!!". :D

You don't really have to dig that far or infer that much really. All you need is the description of Kerrigan in the manual, know that she's still working as an assassin of her own free choice (I mean really, are we supposed to believe that a such a nice, moral, good girl that human Kerrigan is supposedly depicted as would choose to be an assassin after having being rescued from being a forced assassin in the first place?), Raynor's mention of past abuses and that she gets betrayed by the one person she put her absolute faith in beyond all others.

It's way more interesting if you think of Kerrigan's personality being as the result of having developed and being affected by the events that she's gone through. If the story had it that she managed to escape her predicament on Tarsonis and did not get infested, would one expect her to still be the same person as she was depicted earlier in Rebel Yell after such a betrayal? I would think not - she'd be full of rage at the injustice that was put upon her... which, incidentally is just like it was depicted in controlled form in Sc1's Overmind campaign and then, in uncontrolled form in BW.


As far as I remember, there's like one line about the abuse in the entirety of the game. It's when Raynor tries to talk her out of going after the protoss in EP1. You don't really know much more than the confeds have been bad on her and Mengsk rescued her. If you base yourself only on that, it's not that obvious that she's actually a psychopath.

It wasn't immediately obvious that Walter White was actually a psychopath either.

All you need is but one bad day... For Kerrigan, it was being abandoned on Tarsonis by the person she had trusted most.

[sandwich_bird]

It was somewhat explained what the Confederacy did to her in the Uprising book, sandwich bird. Did you ever read it?

My argument was that it's hard to understand Kerrigan by just playing the game and not reading any book.


. I also think that the character being female also makes one lean favourably to thinking that the character is nice at its core, because you know, sexism and all.

I'm not sure about that. Internal bias may play a role in this case but the real problem is that she is never displayed as being demented in EP1. If anything, she sounds like just a cherry person who's trying to do what's "right".


know that she's still working as an assassin of her own free choice
Yes she's a rebel assassin but it's not portrayed as being evil in the situation. In this situation, saying she's probably evil because she's an assassin is like saying Kirby is a genocidal monster devouring anything in his way without mercy because he eats his enemies. Technically it's true that he just eat the entire wild life of anywhere he goes but it's not portrayed as being bad in the context. If Kirby starts taunting his enemies before eating them and do other psychopathic stuff along those lines and plan to conquer the universe, would you say it makes sense? Technically speaking, yeah there's a precedent to it. He's technically always been a devouring monster but honestly, that's a strange jump from the child-like happy pink thingy to the psycho. Obviously that's a bit unfair as an analogy because in Kirby, the intentions of the designers are much clearer. But, I'd argue that Kerrigan isn't meant to be portrayed as anything other than a hero sidekick in EP1. At least, that's how I experienced it before knowing anything else about the EU. If you read about Metzen's first intention too, it makes sense. If Kerrigan is supposed to be the equivalent of Tanya in RA and she's there for the player to experience a loss, there's no reason why she'd be anything other than a "good" sidekick.

By solely playing the game, you have to assume that the infestation just messed her up real good and that's why she's evil in BW. As you say, it's not the most interesting take.



It wasn't immediately obvious that Walter White was actually a psychopath either.

All you need is but one bad day... For Kerrigan, it was being abandoned on Tarsonis by the person she had trusted most.

In breaking bad though, you clearly eventually understand the character's motivation and how he became that way. You never get that sense by only playing SC1/BW

I still don't get why she's so butt hurt about Tarsonis to be honest. It's even worse when you see the SC2 cinematic. She was clearly screwed no matter what. Would have been stupid to risk forces down there to rescue her. If Raynor wanted it so bad, why didn't he take a dropship and try saving her?

[ragnarok]

By solely playing the game, you have to assume that the infestation just messed her up real good and that's why she's evil in BW. As you say, it's not the most interesting take.


In some ways I feel this is a reason why it was necessary to explain all this via books, to show the infestation alone is an oversimplification. That being said I still felt in the DT Saga books they tried to explain why in the years after BW Raynor still made her feel regret. They should have explained if there were limits to the infestation or something

[Mislagnissa]

Then that's not consistent with your impression. If you think the Overmind is the "personification of the instincts and drives of all zerg" and doesn't actually control anything, then the swarm wouldn't act in unity and Zasz wouldn't have shut up and immediately changed his mind when the Overmind told him to. The Overmind tells the distinct personalities in the swarm where to go, and what to do, just like he did with Kerrigan. The fanon that you have in mind on the other hand is nice, but isn't actually StarCraft.

Before I address this I need to explain some important background on the lore. Even before the blatant retcons and plot holes introduced by BW and SC2, the lore was not entirely consistent with itself. The manual has a few inconsistencies with itself and with the script of the game, suggesting that the text of the manual and the script of the game underwent partial rewrites and the leftovers from previous drafts were not caught by proofreading. The nature of the zerg hive mind, which is extremely important, is one of the plot points that is not explained consistently at every mention.

In the manual, the zerg backstory states that the Overmind was created by structuring/unifying/amalgamating "the collective sentience of the Zerg" and the Overmind's bio states its species is "bodiless entity." In the game the Overmind states that all zerg personalities are contained within itself. However: in the bio of Tiamat brood and in the game, it is implied/shown to have a distinct body (or at least a distinct brain). In the game it states it requires a ritual to be "made manifest." What is not clear is whether the Overmind always had a body, discarded that body at some point only to create a new one later, or created a distinct body for the first time on Aiur. This is kind of important for determining the nature of hive mind: whether the Overmind (and by extension the cerebrates) is intrinsic to the zerg or not.

If it is not intrinsic, killing it will leave the zerg feral forever (until someone with a hive mind emulator steps in). If it is intrinsic, then even feral colonies will eventually spawn a new Overmind or cerebrate to replace the previous one. In seeming support of the latter possibility: SC2 states that the Overmind had its own DNA, which is present in the genetic libraries of the larvae.

The nature of zerg reincarnation is not clear either. When a cerebrate is permanently killed, the Overmind goes silent but the cerebrates do not go temporarily feral themselves; we never learn why this is or what the mental/psychic architecture/topology is like. When a cerebrate is killed temporarily: does it have a metaphysical soul that is stick in limbo until a new body is available (which has massive implications for the rest of the lore, since other creatures could conceivably have souls), or it it a purely materialistic phenomenon in which the new brain bug downloads a backup copy of its personality from the nearest hive cluster? The atrocious novel Queen of Blades explicitly depicts the former (and by virtue of the transitive property SC2 implies that the Overmind and cerebrates' souls are still floating somewhere in the purple goo "Void"), whereas Kerry's resurrection in SC2 suggests the latter according to an interview (I don't have the link on hand but can search on request). In the case of the later, how does the dark templar deus ex machina interdict that?

The manual states that zerg are genetically hardwired to listen and obey the orders of their superiors. However, in the game the Overmind does not treat the zerg as mere slaves. When Zasz gets upset by Kerry, the Overmind takes the time to assuage his concerns. Whenever it talks to or about the zerg, the Overmind always treats them affectionately.

It is not clear why the cerebrates need the Overmind (depending on the source), but the same is not true for the rest of the zerg. The entire deal with Kerry's independence, demigodess powers (the SC2 Q&A literally says that), and the brood mother takeover never really made much sense in the context of SC1 or SC2. The zerg have numerous plot threads like this that ultimately lead nowhere.

The manual states the zerg explicitly lack free will, but in the game they display no cognitive dissonance in regard to this. They never ever display any sign they are unhappy with following orders, and always display a deliberate loyalty to the zerg cause. They want to do what the Overmind wants them to do, or more specifically what they think the Overmind wants. Case in point, Zasz only ever displays dissent because he suspects Kerry of dissenting herself. His suspicion is largely baseless in the game itself, but the awful Queen of Blades novel depicts her actively trying to usurp him... among other things, like Zasz (and by extension the omniscient Overmind) being stupid enough to let Zeratul walk up and whisper in his ear when he is clearly an assassin! He does prove right that her stubbornness causes them problems, but the same may be levied at Surtur brood! BW proves Zasz completely right about Kerry being the "doom" of the cerebrates, assuming you don't disregard BW as one giant plot hole.

According to the manual, the Overmind does not micromanage the cerebrates but gives them broadly defined directives to fulfill on their own initative. Even in the game, the Overmind only gives very broad goals to the PC whereas it falls to Zasz and Daggoth to give specific instructions or advice to the PC.

The bio of the Surtur brood states that it so vicious it needs to be restrained when not deployed. When deployed, and then as a last resort, it has to be given wide berth because it will cause collateral damage to any other zerg in its path. The Overmind clearly does not have perfect control over the zerg, otherwise this would not be a problem.

Zasz's bio explicitly states that other cerebrates find him unstable and whiny. Daggoth's bio states he is more willful compared to other cerebrates.

So I believe I am correct when I say that the Overmind does not, strictly speaking, "control" the zerg. It gives the zerg purpose and direction, but the swarms act on their own initiative and while incapable of deception or treachery they do not work in constant harmony. It seems to serve as the zerg equivalent of a shoulder angel, albeit one the zerg are biased to follow.

This is probably why UA, in his SC LP thread, mentioned that he believed the cerebrates had the potential camaraderie, rivalry and politics that are not shown the game. The cerebrates were sadly underutilized and underexplored before being unceremoniously killed off in BW.

[Turalyon]

I'm not sure about that. Internal bias may play a role in this case but the real problem is that she is never displayed as being demented in EP1. If anything, she sounds like just a cherry person who's trying to do what's "right".

Yeah, but a cheery person who's trying to do what's right and can be easily morally conflicted would not be an assassin as their primary day job would they? Sure, she may not be "demented" initially but that she feels no cognitive dissonance at what she does/acts and what she believes smacks of ignorance and naivete. Such people fall hard and don't cope well when they get schooled hard, and boy, did Kerry get some schooling...


Yes she's a rebel assassin but it's not portrayed as being evil in the situation.

It's not about being black and white/good and evil. It's about her compromised morality. She's supposed to be "good" minded but goes murdering people that she thinks are evil, then balks at the idea of killing a lot of other "evil" people along with some collateral innocents only to go ahead and then acquiesce, tacitly condoning actions which she is supposed to find reprehensible.


But, I'd argue that Kerrigan isn't meant to be portrayed as anything other than a hero sidekick in EP1. At least, that's how I experienced it before knowing anything else about the EU. If you read about Metzen's first intention too, it makes sense. If Kerrigan is supposed to be the equivalent of Tanya in RA and she's there for the player to experience a loss, there's no reason why she'd be anything other than a "good" sidekick.

I agree about the Doylist intent of her characters creation but that shouldn't limit one's interpretation of the character. I think Sc1 is great because of its unintended vagueness and (as Tolkien describes) varied applicability. Despite the Doylist influence over the story in terms of plot device and conceit, Sc1's events (and supposed plotholes) can be explained entirely/can exist purely on a Watsonian level/within the universe. So whilst Kerrigan is just a generic insert character to fill a role the author felt the story needed at that time (indeed she was merely included just to represent a loss for the hero character and a convenient way to personify the Zerg), the character's arc can survive Death of the Author and be something more.


By solely playing the game, you have to assume that the infestation just messed her up real good and that's why she's evil in BW. As you say, it's not the most interesting take.

But in BW, she does offer up some truths in True Colors in that she felt hard-done-by at Tarsonis and her subsequent forced transfiguration by the Zerg. She said she liked who she became at the time of her rebirth but the Overmind was there then and its will was dominating the Zerg and most likely hers as well (the Overmind even mentions that despite Kerrigan's designs being odd, no Zerg can stray from its will). She is out for revenge against the whole world in BW because she's realised, the hard way, that everyone is out to control or work you over (as the Confeds, Mengsk and the Overmind did to her). Having wised up to that, she ain't going to be in that position ever again since it's going to be her turn now. This particular revelation in BW about her primary motivation opens up the possibility that she is evil not because of infestation but that she has changed because of what she was forced to endure at and after Tarsonis. It's kinda tragic really.


In breaking bad though, you clearly eventually understand the character's motivation and how he became that way. You never get that sense by only playing SC1/BW.

Thing is, you can already determine the nature of Walter White's evil from the very first season, even though it's not overt yet. The series just goes on to clearly demonstrate that he's naturally a narcissistic, entitled person who felt shorted his whole entire life but that he constantly lies to/deludes himself to justify his actions/inaction. The inciting incident was his cancer diagnosis - it was the last straw that broke the back/ the last sick joke that life played on him yet again... just like Tarsonis would've been for Kerrigan.


I still don't get why she's so butt hurt about Tarsonis to be honest. It's even worse when you see the SC2 cinematic. She was clearly screwed no matter what. Would have been stupid to risk forces down there to rescue her. If Raynor wanted it so bad, why didn't he take a dropship and try saving her?

She's "butt hurt" because she was naive and deluded to think that Mengsk would "come around" and/or be as loyal as she was to him and do right by her. Given all the stuff she's done for Mengsk, to not even be dignified with a verbal response/just being ignored when she called for help probably didn't help either.

Maybe Raynor tried but quickly realised the folly of doing so? I wonder whether we can also assume then that Raynor didn't directly and verbally respond to her calls for help either. If so, so much for his undying devotion/love for her; what an arsehole, amirite? :p

[sandwich_bird]

Yeah, but a cheery person who's trying to do what's right and can be easily morally conflicted would not be an assassin as their primary day job would they? Sure, she may not be "demented" initially but that she feels no cognitive dissonance at what she does/acts and what she believes smacks of ignorance and naivete. Such people fall hard and don't cope well when they get schooled hard, and boy, did Kerry get some schooling...

It's not about being black and white/good and evil. It's about her compromised morality. She's supposed to be "good" minded but goes murdering people that she thinks are evil, then balks at the idea of killing a lot of other "evil" people along with some collateral innocents only to go ahead and then acquiesce, tacitly condoning actions which she is supposed to find reprehensible.


This is going to be a hard argument because it deals with a lot of subjective/abstracts and I have to do some detours so bare with me :)

What you're saying is 100% true but where I'm getting at is that you're looking at this from a real life perspective and applying real life logic to what is happening. Though Starcraft 1 has a veil of pseudo-realism, some aspects of the story are not meant to be understood through our reality. One such aspect is the representation of Kerrigan in EP1. You're not meant to ask yourself the implication of her being an assassin or how that affects her psych. You're just meant to see her as a cool female sniper that fights for the good guys. That's not to say that you shouldn't. You can do whatever you want :p But again, it's like asking yourself what are the implication that killing turtles has on the psych of Mario. You're just not intended to ask yourself that question. You're just supposed to take it as it is. Mario jumps on turtle that have the sentience level of regular humans.. and that process kills them but it's OK. There's no cognitive dissonance there. He's not a psycho. Similarly, Kerrigan shoots the confeds, it's all good cause they're baddies.

If you're following me up until there, you might ask "ok well how do you decide that I'm not supposed to ask these questions"? This is tricky to answer. If you know the author's intention, then you know what it's expected of you. If you don't though, then it's all about the presentation. In Mario, I think we can all agree that you shouldn't dig deeper than Mario is a good guy and killing turtles is of no consequences. The bright colors and the style make you think that it's all fine and there's never a hint that you should question wtf is happening. Now in Starcraft, it's harder to decide, because again, everything it's pseudo-realistic and on top of that, it sometimes actually show you morale topics. The thing is, the starcraft authors only wants you to ponder on the question that they trow at you. It's really a dual personality. You know this because the gameplay is really just a power fantasy. You yourself, as a commander, send your forces to murder confeds soldiers who probably are actually good guys forced into a war they don't want to fight. Who cares? "Go go go , rock and roll", pew pew pew, "need medical attention ;)" , more pew pew pew, . If they wanted you to think deep, they'd make sure that you understand that what you're doing is killing and this is a war. Maybe marines could mourn the fact that they'll never see their family again as they die or something. Medics wouldn't be so enthusiastic about stitching up wounded soldiers under fire. Stuff like that would make it clear that SC is serious business. But that is not the case. You're given 2 lenses. Sometime the morally questionable one but mostly the power fantasy one.

Now, going back to Kerrigan. In EP1, you only have 1 line regarding the deepness of her character and it's Raynor that says it. This is one of the only time that you're given the "morally questionable lens" to look at Kerrigan. Anywhere else, it's the power fantasy. "oh you pig!" "yeah I like that ;)" pew pew pew. When that lens is on, you're supposed to enjoy whatever is given to you and not think deeply about the implications of what you're doing. Because this is the case, it's a stretch to start talking about how morally conflicted she might be and whatever else. The cool sniper moments are pure power fantasy. So then, to assume that this(being conflicted) is the reason for why she's evil in BW is a very big stretch. It's basically fanon if you only play the game and don't read the manual or any book. It's a totally fair to wonder why the hell did she turns so evil if the overmind isn't there anymore and she's never been shown through the serious lens that she's conflicted.



But in BW, she does offer up some truths in True Colors in that she felt hard-done-by at Tarsonis and her subsequent forced transfiguration by the Zerg. She said she liked who she became at the time of her rebirth but the Overmind was there then and its will was dominating the Zerg and most likely hers as well (the Overmind even mentions that despite Kerrigan's designs being odd, no Zerg can stray from its will). She is out for revenge against the whole world in BW because she's realised, the hard way, that everyone is out to control or work you over (as the Confeds, Mengsk and the Overmind did to her). Having wised up to that, she ain't going to be in that position ever again since it's going to be her turn now. This particular revelation in BW about her primary motivation opens up the possibility that she is evil not because of infestation but that she has changed because of what she was forced to endure at and after Tarsonis. It's kinda tragic really.

She actually never say in true color that she liked what she became. I had to go double check that. It's a nice interpretation that you have and man that would have been great and make things clear but it's a stretch from what is actually being said. if you want the transcript for convenience:


After 6 minutes
Marine: All units prepare for retaliation! Kerrigan caught us with our pants down, but it's time to start givin' some back!
Kerrigan: Continue your attack, Cerebrate. Their defenses won't last long against us.

Meet Duke
Duke: Well, well, well. If it isn't little Kerrigan. I had a feeling we'd be meeting each other again. You've got a lot to answer for, little girl.
Kerrigan: General Duke. You know I always wanted to have you killed. This is kind of exciting for me.
Duke: Do your worst then, girl. You ain't taking Edmund Duke without a fight!

Mengsk: (Duke's death) Kerrigan, you murdering bitch! We had a deal!
Kerrigan: Oh, come on, Arcturus. Did you really think that I'd allow you to come into power again? You practically fed me to the Zerg on Tarsonis! You're directly responsible for the hell I've been through! Did you honestly think I'd let you get away with that?
Mengsk: But you said revenge was secondary to defeating the UED!
Kerrigan: I lied. I liberated this planet because it was the UED's primary staging point, not because I was under any obligation to you. I used you to destroy the Psi Disrupter, and now that I've got my Broods back, you're no longer necessary for my plans.
Kerrigan: I think I'll leave you here, Arcturus, among the ashes of your precious Dominion. I want you to live to see me rise to power. And I want you to always remember in your most private moments that it was you who turned me loose in the first place.

Meet Fenix
Fenix: This is a betrayal most foul, Kerrigan. We were fools to have gone along with this charade!
Kerrigan: You're right, Fenix. I used you to get the job done, and you played along just like I knew you would. You Protoss are so headstrong and predictable, You are your own worst enemies.
Fenix: That's ironic. I can remember Tassadar teaching you a very similar lesson on Char.
Kerrigan: I took that lesson to heart, Praetor. Now, are you ready to die a second time?
Fenix: The Khala awaits me, Kerrigan. And although I am prepared to face my destiny, you'll not find me easy prey!
Kerrigan: Then that shall be your epitaph.

Raynor: (Fenix's death) Fenix! No!
Kerrigan: (joking) What are you worried about, Jim? He died the way all Protoss hope to, in combat!
Raynor: He died because you betrayed him. How many more noble souls do you need to consume before you're satisfied? How many more people need to die before you realize what you've become?
Kerrigan: You don't even know what you're talking about, Jim!
Raynor: Don't I? I'll see you dead for this, Kerrigan. For Fenix and all the others who got caught between you and your mad quest for power!
Kerrigan: Tough talk, Jimmy. But I don't think you have what it takes to be a killer.
Raynor: It may not be tomorrow, darlin'. It may not even happen with an army at my back. But rest assured: I'm the man who's going to kill you some day. I'll be seein' you.




She's "butt hurt" because she was naive and deluded to think that Mengsk would "come around" and/or be as loyal as she was to him and do right by her. Given all the stuff she's done for Mengsk, to not even be dignified with a verbal response/just being ignored when she called for help probably didn't help either.

Maybe Raynor tried but quickly realised the folly of doing so? I wonder whether we can also assume then that Raynor didn't directly and verbally respond to her calls for help either. If so, so much for his undying devotion/love for her; what an arsehole, amirite?

Those are some dumb unrealistic expectations that Mengsk could magically dive in and save her. But I get the lack of verbal response though, that's a good point.

Never thought about it but yeah it's pretty funny that Raynor didn't even pick up the line either. Not even a "I'm sorry honey, I did all I can but we can't help you"? Real jerk!

[Mislagnissa]

The writing is terrible and inconsistent, so there really is no point to arguing which interpretation is right.

Reading the recaps in the WoL quickstart guide and the LotV story so far video is quite fascinating. There is no way to explain the details because it is nonsensical, so the new writers just gloss over everything in a way that vaguely makes some kind of sense.

For example, WoL recap states Kerry's "allies" in BW considered the Overmind the real threat rather than the UED. Presumably it would have broke free at some point.

[Turalyon]

It's basically fanon if you only play the game and don't read the manual or any book. It's a totally fair to wonder why the hell did she turns so evil if the overmind isn't there anymore and she's never been shown through the serious lens that she's conflicted.

I acknowledge that it's fanon and it's but one interpretation - it's the cornerstone of "Death of the Author" and when something has varied applicability - but this fanon is informed by what's been given in the game and manual though not in an overt/spoonfed way. That the game doesn't spell it out for you and lets you decide the why and wheretofores is one of its strengths, respects the intelligence of the viewer and gives the illusion of depth. Sure, you can take the lazy way out and just let it wash over you or take everything at face value but then if you ask the hard questions and then not do the slightest bit of thinking to figure it out, then who's problem is that?

Kerrigan becoming angry and different in BW shouldn't really make "no sense" if you've been following on from the games. Even if it weren't for that, she more or less tells you the reason why she harbors such vindictiveness in True Colors (she hates everything that has been done to her up to this point). Also, people do change after going through major life events right? In uncertain terms, Kerrigan states that this was so for her ("You practically fed me to the Zerg on Tarsonis, you're directly responsible for the hell I've been through").


She actually never say in true color that she liked what she became.

My bad. I was trying provide context but ended up being unclear. I said that she like who she was after her rebirth into the Swarm - as in Sc1, not BW/True Colors. She was perhaps lying there, consciously or not (given that the Overmind was still in control then).


Those are some dumb unrealistic expectations that Mengsk could magically dive in and save her.

You do realise that human Kerrigan was the epitome of naivete, right? Her concept of morality is so warped and has unerring faith in a man who clearly does not share such sentiment, that "dumb unrealistic expectations" about being saved wouldn't be that far-fetched for her. It informs and potentially explains the sudden turn into bitterness, rage and anger when those expectations aren't met. I kinda see it like Kerrigan being sort of like a child in Sc1 and then a teenager in BW.


Never thought about it but yeah it's pretty funny that Raynor didn't even pick up the line either. Not even a "I'm sorry honey, I did all I can but we can't help you"? Real jerk!

Lol. Now that you got me thinking about that, it probably explains her coldness to Raynor in all of their later dealings in Sc1 and BW.


For example, WoL recap states Kerry's "allies" in BW considered the Overmind the real threat rather than the UED. Presumably it would have broke free at some point.

They almost lost all to the Zerg without defeating the Overmind the first time around and the Zerg are still handing out peoples arses even without the Overmind, so the news of another Overmind probably would supersede most concerns. The UED just happen to be in a position to be controlling this new Overmind, so they have to get wiped, too.

[sandwich_bird]

I acknowledge that it's fanon and it's but one interpretation - it's the cornerstone of "Death of the Author" and when something has varied applicability - but this fanon is informed by what's been given in the game and manual though not in an overt/spoonfed way. That the game doesn't spell it out for you and lets you decide the why and wheretofores is one of its strengths, respects the intelligence of the viewer and gives the illusion of depth. Sure, you can take the lazy way out and just let it wash over you or take everything at face value but then if you ask the hard questions and then not do the slightest bit of thinking to figure it out, then who's problem is that?

Kerrigan becoming angry and different in BW shouldn't really make "no sense" if you've been following on from the games. Even if it weren't for that, she more or less tells you the reason why she harbors such vindictiveness in True Colors (she hates everything that has been done to her up to this point). Also, people do change after going through major life events right? In uncertain terms, Kerrigan states that this was so for her ("You practically fed me to the Zerg on Tarsonis, you're directly responsible for the hell I've been through").


Being angry and being a cartoon villain are different things. I don't buy the argument that being abandoned is enough to turn her into a psychopath. Seeking revenge on Mengsk, yeah ok. Committing large scale atrocities without flinching? No. It is possible but very unlikely without hints that she is already borderline psycho. Now, you say that we're supposed to assume that this is the case because she's an assassin. I claim that those hints aren't really hints because they're displayed under a thematic of power fantasy and thus cannot/shouldn't be inspected deeper through real life logic/implications. In fact, I'd say Starcraft might as well literally tell you that she's a good person because the presentation is clear on the subject. Your rebuttal to this is that you should dig deeper anyways and thus ignore the presentation and consider the story as a standalone object?

Let me ask you this then: do you think that the "Death of the Author" point of view is an appropriate frame of interpretation in all situations? How much should we be "allowed" to interpret our own way?

In any case, if you don't ignore the presentation(and you probably wouldn't while playing), do you agree that the most likely reason for her turning into a villain is because she was infested? And considering the presentation, would you say that someone is likely to think that Kerrigan becomes evil in BW because she always has been? And that is more probable than simply because she was infested?

[Turalyon]

I don't buy the argument that being abandoned is enough to turn her into a psychopath. Seeking revenge on Mengsk, yeah ok. Committing large scale atrocities without flinching? No.

That's a reductive way of looking at it since the sequence of events need to be looked at as a whole and her psychopathy is not devoid of rhyme or reason as some insist. The abandonment may not be the exact trigger/cause for her psychopathy but it's the fulcrum point because without that event, she wouldn't have become psychopathic. Her time being infested and being used to kill greater numbers people with no remorse would really just be a minor extension/shift of perspective of what she did previously as a human since she was an assassin of her own free will and already tacitly condoned and knowingly assisted in warcrimes through denial, despite being supposedly aware and paying lip service about the morality of those warcrimes.

Those she killed in her Sc1 infested state (mainly Protoss on Char) would've informed her behaviour later on in BW as well. Sure, she was forced to fight Protoss and Terrans whilst compelled by the Overmind then but she still had enough wherewithal to feel slighted and humiliated by the Protoss on Char. She got to be infested because she was manipulated by her own weakness (lack of conviction) and the Protoss then teach her a similar lesson (that she is her own worst enemy) on Char shortly afterward. In BW, she then goes on to "repay" (her "revenge") both Mengsk and the Protoss for those "lessons" with interest. At that point in BW, she's beyond caring for any higher cause because all she got whilst doing so was still being shat upon by others. The UED deserve her wrath because they're overtly all about controlling others and are a threat because they seek to use the neo-Overmind, the one thing that can enslave her again. She goes to the lengths she does on Shakuras to kill anything that can support this new Overmind. Those atrocities she commits are in the pursuit to remain, what she considers at any rate, free.


In fact, I'd say Starcraft might as well literally tell you that she's a good person because the presentation is clear on the subject. Your rebuttal to this is that you should dig deeper anyways and thus ignore the presentation and consider the story as a standalone object?

No. I'm saying that the presentation can be interpreted in many ways/ is not as clear as you'd like to think. That's why Sc1 feels more grey (and why Sc2 is not). There are no good or evil people in Sc1, it's just how you wish to interpret it.

I don't mind the interpretation that Raynor and human Kerrigan in Sc1 being unassailable paragons of virtue (most fiction tend toward simple protagonist centred morality afterall), but I know that's not entirely true.


Let me ask you this then: do you think that the "Death of the Author" point of view is an appropriate frame of interpretation in all situations? How much should we be "allowed" to interpret our own way?

A definite no for the first question. The question of how much will vary on the work. Either way, it's helpful in allowing one to fill in subjectively important/objectively unimportant gaps, prolonging the longevity of a work and potentially engages a more varied audience.


In any case, if you don't ignore the presentation (and you probably wouldn't while playing), do you agree that the most likely reason for her turning into a villain is because she was infested? And considering the presentation, would you say that someone is likely to think that Kerrigan becomes evil in BW because she always has been? And that is more probable than simply because she was infested?

I get where you're coming from and would say yes; on the surface of things, Kerrigan is evil because she's tainted by infestation. Thing is, all this conversation came about due to a question about "why Kerrigan is evil/still being evil in BW" making no sense, arose. It seems that someone didn't find it as simple as the presentation suggests/supposes it to be. My response to that was that if one was willing to look beyond the presentation to still ask that question, why were they not looking beyond that initial presentation to find that answer?

[Mislagnissa]

SC2 would have you believe it is all due to brainwashing, which to be fair was the case ever since Kerry was enslaved by the Confederacy.

The Ghost Program brainwashed her repeatedly to keep her from developing her own personality, which Arcturus took advantage of for some reason while killing other ghosts he captured. When the zerg captured her, she was probably brainwashed simply by being connected to the hive mind. Everyone who is connected to it goes insane.

Where things get strange is in BW and the SC2 retcons to BW. In the original BW Kerry inexplicably becomes an evil overlord, which she attributes to being free of the Overmind's control. The thing was, the Overmind was not controlling her and if anything appeared to be controlled by her, especially with the QoB novel retcons that depicted her as actively trying to usurp Zasz, but let's ignore that for now. In SC2, the brood war is glossed over as Kerry reclaiming control of the feral zerg and the cerebrates seemingly retconned out of existence. Not only that, but SC2 claims the Overmind created her to take control after its death and save the zerg from the xel'naga. While that explains her presence in SC1 better than the abandoned determinant plot point in the SC1 manual, it is sabotaged in SC2 itself by then explaining she was still controlled by the xel'naga/Amon. There is no explanation how the Overmind intended to fix that, and it fell to Zeratul to do so after being told so by Ouros (who praises the Overmind despite it being, you know, a vicious zerg monster like the rest of its kind with the exact same goal as Amon).

Anyway, QoB became the new leader of the zerg because plot convenience and she was manipulated by Duran. Then Zeratul purifies her with a plot device and her QoB memories are erased, leaving only her original human personality intact. More accurately the sliver of personality the writers made up for HotS. Kerry's last memory is of being betrayed by Arcturus, and since she is basically insane she devotes her life to killing him regardless of the collateral damage. Raynor is also crazy since he lost his wife and son and cares nothing for all the people he murdered on Antiga and Tarsonis. In any event, Arcturus is portrayed as the villain and needs to die because the plot says so.

Also, Kerry turned back into a zerg at some point. In the development version of the story it was because the cure failed and her body reverted back, just like Stukov in his backstory (or some version of it), while in the game she went to "Zerus" and was infested again. Both of these versions are so irrelevant to the plot that you can pretend either happened and nothing would change.

In any event, you cannot really analyze the story of Starcraft because Metzen is a shit writer who makes it up as he goes along, consistency and logic and basic rules of writing be damned.

[Nissa]

I don't necessarily want to dive headfirst into an argument I'm not a member of, but I wanted to point out something real quick.


I still don't get why she's so butt hurt about Tarsonis to be honest. It's even worse when you see the SC2 cinematic. She was clearly screwed no matter what. Would have been stupid to risk forces down there to rescue her. If Raynor wanted it so bad, why didn't he take a dropship and try saving her?

You're relying too much on the SC2 cinematic, which is more or less a retcon, intentionally or not. Because of the game structure of SC1, we don't actually know if Kerrigan herself was in a rescuable position compared to the attacking Zerg. She personally might have been closer or father away. Also, she wasn't alone. Whether or not she was personally rescued, she's still responsible for the people under her command. So even if she's lost, she still will want to make sure the people around her get out, as much as she is able. Though she ends up infested, originally she did care about the lives of those people, and even as a Zerg it likely still irks her that she didn't have the power to save people she was responsible for/liked. Likewise, we don't really know the extent of Mengsk's ability to rescue people. With enough air power, he could have killed many Zerg attackers or attacked their base to lure them elsewhere. Either way, Kerrigan had the expectation that Mengsk would try, and Mengsk had the obligation to try, which he failed.

[ragnarok]

You're relying too much on the SC2 cinematic, which is more or less a retcon, intentionally or not.

That was just Raynor reminiscing about the whole situation. It's not like he could have known the exact details of what happened down there. All he had known (until proven otherwise on Char) was that the zerg turned her into their chew toy.

[Turalyon]

You're relying too much on the SC2 cinematic, which is more or less a retcon, intentionally or not. Because of the game structure of SC1, we don't actually know if Kerrigan herself was in a rescuable position compared to the attacking Zerg. She personally might have been closer or father away. Also, she wasn't alone. Whether or not she was personally rescued, she's still responsible for the people under her command. So even if she's lost, she still will want to make sure the people around her get out, as much as she is able. Though she ends up infested, originally she did care about the lives of those people, and even as a Zerg it likely still irks her that she didn't have the power to save people she was responsible for/liked. Likewise, we don't really know the extent of Mengsk's ability to rescue people. With enough air power, he could have killed many Zerg attackers or attacked their base to lure them elsewhere. Either way, Kerrigan had the expectation that Mengsk would try, and Mengsk had the obligation to try, which he failed.

Then again, Sc1's representation of that scenario is kinda ambiguous enough for one to possibly question why Kerrigan would even bother to signal for an evac when she probably already has access to Dropships (you can build air-forces in the mission afterall) and get out on her own. I suppose that at the time for Kerrigan, it was probably not the reality of whether evac from Mengsk could realistically be possible or better than any other escape she could've devise herself but more the fact that she was totally ignored when asking for assistance.

[ragnarok]

Then again, Sc1's representation of that scenario is kinda ambiguous enough for one to possibly question why Kerrigan would even bother to signal for an evac when she probably already has access to Dropships (you can build air-forces in the mission afterall) and get out on her own. I suppose that at the time for Kerrigan, it was probably not the reality of whether evac from Mengsk could realistically be possible or better than any other escape she could've devise herself but more the fact that she was totally ignored when asking for assistance.

According to the 2006 QoB book, she continued to believe Mengsk just didn't make it in time until Raynor explained to her that Mengsk left her there. And Mengsk felt it was necessary to set an example if anyone else tried to defy him

[sandwich_bird]

Thing is, all this conversation came about due to a question about "why Kerrigan is evil/still being evil in BW" making no sense, arose. It seems that someone didn't find it as simple as the presentation suggests/supposes it to be. My response to that was that if one was willing to look beyond the presentation to still ask that question, why were they not looking beyond that initial presentation to find that answer?

Fair enough


which is more or less a retcon, intentionally or not

I guess. I've always been annoyed by the fact that the cinematic doesn't take place on a space platform like in the game but instead seems to be on the ground of Tarsonis.

[ragnarok]

I guess. I've always been annoyed by the fact that the cinematic doesn't take place on a space platform like in the game but instead seems to be on the ground of Tarsonis.

They forgot about that part, you surprised?

[Turalyon]

According to the 2006 QoB book, she continued to believe Mengsk just didn't make it in time until Raynor explained to her that Mengsk left her there.

Well, it's lucky I never read the book then.

Even so, to think that Kerrigan was still that naive that it took Raynor to tell her she'd been abandoned would make sense I suppose... not that this does any favours to her being a believable character or anything.

I also would have no idea when or how Raynor would have had the chance to tell an Infested Kerrigan that Mengsk abandoned her until BW where she presumably rescues him on Aiur. Course, it doesn't really explain why Raynor didn't seem to do or say anything at the time himself though. Maybe that's why she didn't mind hurting Raynor's feelings by killing Fenix later on.

[ragnarok]

Well, it's lucky I never read the book then.


I didn't either, Tura. The people on the battlenet threads told me that book was utter crap and contradicted the SC1 lore too much even by SC2 standards

[Mislagnissa]

I didn't either, Tura. The people on the battlenet threads told me that book was utter crap and contradicted the SC1 lore too much even by SC2 standards

It is still considered canon in the SC2 story so far segments. The wiki attempts to claim that the events of the game are still accurate, but this is obviously wrong.

Queen of Blades is the closest we will ever get to an adaptation of Episodes 2 and 3. (Liberty's Crusade was an adaptation of Episode 1.)

The ironic thing is that the QoB retcons makes it possible to slot Retribution as taking place during Episode 1 (as the wiki falsely claims on the unsupported assumption that the Supreme Being is Kerry), when it was officially intended to take place during the invasion of Aiur. In fact, the Supreme Being could easily be the second Overmind.

[ragnarok]

It is still considered canon in the SC2 story so far segments. The wiki attempts to claim that the events of the game are still accurate, but this is obviously wrong.

Queen of Blades is the closest we will ever get to an adaptation of Episodes 2 and 3. (Liberty's Crusade was an adaptation of Episode 1.)

The ironic thing is that the QoB retcons makes it possible to slot Retribution as taking place during Episode 1 (as the wiki falsely claims on the unsupported assumption that the Supreme Being is Kerry), when it was officially intended to take place during the invasion of Aiur. In fact, the Supreme Being could easily be the second Overmind.

I never got into the Retribution lore, so I wouldn't know

[Mislagnissa]

I never got into the Retribution lore, so I wouldn't know

You can watch let's plays on youtube, and there is a synopsis on the starcraft wiki. The story and characters are not particularly memorable, but unlike the Blizzard campaigns it is not full of plot holes.

Insurrection was recently bugfixed by a fan and re-released under the title "Insurrection Remastered." It has a very neat story and you could play it in Starcraft Remastered or watch a let's play. In the past I have described it as a better executed version of the story that the Blizzard campaign wanted to tell.

Both of these campaigns are fairly... quirky, is probably the best word for it.

[ragnarok]

You can watch let's plays on youtube, and there is a synopsis on the starcraft wiki. The story and characters are not particularly memorable, but unlike the Blizzard campaigns it is not full of plot holes.


I thought you said the SC wiki isn't reliable.

[Mislagnissa]

I thought you said the SC wiki isn't reliable.

What I meant is that the wiki treats all sources of lore as equally valid unless they explicitly contradict one another. Unlike the writers paid by Blizzard, they actually bother to keep track of what the lore actually said at any point in time. So when you read their synthesis of many differences sources written by different writers who made stuff up as they went along with no regard for internal consistency, that synthesis comes across as bizarre and convoluted.

This is what led Gradius to assume that the khala and the void are power sources of their own, separate from the psionic matrices of Aiur and Shakuras. I believe that is a simple case of writer error.

The extent of the protoss population and territories is another point of contention. The SC1 manual states that "ancient Protoss texts speak of a highly advanced race [xel'naga] that ruled over thousands of worlds" and that "the Protoss inadvertently succeeded in reclaiming an eighth of the worlds once presided over by the Xel’Naga." The SC1 manual suggests that the protoss only developed practical FTL travel after the Aeon of Strife, but some of the maps from the battlenet site mentioned that protoss traveled to and fought on a number of other planets during the Aeon of Strife.

The SC1 manual explained that prior to the Aeon of Strife the protoss surpassed the xel'naga, and after the Aeon most of their efforts were devoted to reverse engineering their own technology. Xel'naga tech was briefly mentioned, as well as that they probably taught the protoss how to use khaydarin, but the details are pretty vague. While it is pretty clear that the xel'naga were surpassed by the protoss and the zerg, the mentions of protoss mythology make them out to be space gods but given that the xel'naga got their asses handed to them by their self-styled worshipers it is pretty obvious this is just myth (which is probably where Metzen got the idea to make them literal space gods, ignoring the fact that the text itself contradicted this assumption).

Then in later retcons the protoss went from a clever subversion of the space elf trope to a straight take on it. By SC2 they were explained to have passed their peak long ago and always had difficulties reproducing which forced the xel'naga to use khaydarin as a fertility drug (what? another plot device? surely not!). Contrast this with the concept art of Starcraft: Ghost, made back before the lore was what it is today, and the protoss were depicted as mass spawning like amphibians.


Even protoss anatomy underwent numerous changes during development of SC1 and afterward. In their earliest concept art they looked much like SC2 swarm queens or like Warhammer 40k eldar. Their lack of a mouth was not standardized, as one piece of early concept art depicts a zealot wearing a mask. The SC1 manual itself stated they were descended from hunters, but that in modern times all their units' energy needs are supplied by the psi matrix. It was only in Q&A's by community PR people and the dark templar trilogy that this was changed to them being photosynthetic, and always having been (it is obvious that the writers had no idea what photosynthesis was). This retcon was completely unnecessary, since the manual already stated they were powered by the psi matrix (and if they were cut off, they probably used personal khaydarin crystals as batteries or something; it is easy to draw reasonable conclusions like that). The only question that is not answered by the manual's simple explanation is how their digestive system worked and whether it is still functional in modern times.

Protoss facial structure is another oddity. As I said, at one point they wore mouthless masks in the art but this mutated into them having pronounced mouthless chins. Different artwork has depicted them in many different ways prior to the homogenization seen in SC2. Almost all of their portraits in all games depict them inhaling and exhaling when idle, suggesting that they breath with lungs. In older artwork many of them display facial features vaguely resembling noses or lips on their chins and cheeks that serve an unknown function. Some portraits depict protoss wearing gas masks or veils, suggesting that these facial features are used for breathing and emoting. With the retcons that their mouthless chins are utterly featureless and serve no function and that they have no apparent lungs... the existence of gas masks, veils, the fact that they appear to inhale/exhale, and the fact that they have chins... it all becomes nonsensical. There is absolutely no logic behind how their anatomy works.

But I digress...

[ragnarok]

What I meant is that the wiki treats all sources of lore as equally valid unless they explicitly contradict one another. Unlike the writers paid by Blizzard, they actually bother to keep track of what the lore actually said at any point in time. So when you read their synthesis of many differences sources written by different writers who made stuff up as they went along with no regard for internal consistency, that synthesis comes across as bizarre and convoluted.


It's actually from the wiki that I got into the SC universe after WoL's release. By then, despite not having read any of the SC books (usually they're using the SC2 lore) I already began to see some contradictions and such from SC1 and SC2's lore, hence why I had to turn to the wiki to see what was REALLY going on. It was why I had to rely so much on the wiki for my fic back then....

[Mislagnissa]

It's actually from the wiki that I got into the SC universe after WoL's release. By then, despite not having read any of the SC books (usually they're using the SC2 lore) I already began to see some contradictions and such from SC1 and SC2's lore, hence why I had to turn to the wiki to see what was REALLY going on. It was why I had to rely so much on the wiki for my fic back then....

The wiki is missing a few things too. The book Liberty's Crusade mentions that the Confederacy telepathically interrogated zerg test subjects (although it was apparently quite painful). From this they learned that the zerg considered other species food for their young and material for their creations, and that the protoss were genetic purists that purged the galaxy of life which grew out of control or did not meet their standards of perfection. None of this is mentioned on the wiki.

[ragnarok]

The wiki is missing a few things too. The book Liberty's Crusade mentions that the Confederacy telepathically interrogated zerg test subjects (although it was apparently quite painful). From this they learned that the zerg considered other species food for their young and material for their creations, and that the protoss were genetic purists that purged the galaxy of life which grew out of control or did not meet their standards of perfection. None of this is mentioned on the wiki.

Oh I know about missing stuff, that's why I check every few days to see if they eventually get filled in

[Mislagnissa]

Oh I know about missing stuff, that's why I check every few days to see if they eventually get filled in

Here is another example from Magic's commentary on the Brood War script (https://web.archive.org/web/20160410133919/http://www.samods.org/node/203):

Incidentally, in my discussions with Rommel about StarCraft, he suggested where the names for the main zerg cerebrates, Daggoth and Zasz, could be derived:

'Dagoth' is a character in the Marvel comics universe and also the movie Conan the Destroyer. It's also the combination of 'Dagon' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagon_%28short_story%29) and 'Shoggoth' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoggoth), names from the works of HP Lovecraft, who perhaps in turn took Dagon from the Semitic god (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagon). There's also 'Dagoth Ur', the main antagonist in the game The Elder Scrolls: Morrowind, though it was released well after the original StarCraft.

Meanwhile, Zasz may be derived from serial killer Victor Zsasz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Zsasz), one of Batman's many enemies.
That is the sort of thing that could be added under the trivia subheadings of the articles about those characters. Which reminds me...

Looking at the known cerebrate names: Araq, Auza, Daggoth, Gorn, Kagg, Kaloth, Nargil, Zargil, Zasz. Although if you wanted a strict correspondence between spelling and sound it would be best to render some of these as Daggoθ, Kaloθ, and Zaß. They seem to be loosely based on Mesopotamian languages such as Sumerian and the Semitic languages, but {th} or /θ/ is Greek and {sz} is... not English (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sz_(digraph)), but here apparently stands for /s/ (I think?). Or they might be based on the names of 80s cartoon villains like Zarkon in Voltron. The maximal syllable structure is apparently CVGCC and almost all consonants are voiced except /θ/, /k/, /q/ and /s/.

Contrast that with Protoss names, which are generally limited to CVC syllable structure and have few voiced consonants. The {kh} digraph pops up a lot, probably as a simple weird fantasy spelling (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PhantasySpelling), but in real languages {kh} could indicate aspiration /kʰ/ or a fricative /x/ a la Greek chi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chi_(letter)).

The interesting thing is that the protoss language ("Khalani") takes a number of terms from Roman Latin, such as "templar." This is shown in "khassar de templari" meaning "justice comes from order"... except that khassar means "order" and templari means "justice" near as I can tell, so de is essentially the grammatical opposite of the Latin ex. Unfortunately Khalani is not a real language so the grammar varies by the writer: while some writers seem to use a fusional (or rarely synthetic) grammar, the quotes in Starcraft 2 that I was able to find a translation for (a number of units say the same phrase in English and Khalani) were a substitution cipher of English grammar (which is highly analytical). On the templar census from the beta website (which I should have recently archived and linked to elsewhere), the human translator mentioned that the protoss still used ancient tribal languages and rendered these in Latin (presumably to give the same feel that protoss would get from reading it) while the modern language was translated in English.

I am really disappointed by Blizzard's lazy approach to the protoss language. I would have preferred if they hired a linguist to design it, or just used Latin instead as a translation convention. For example, in Latin the khala ("path of ascension") would be via ascēnsiōnis, khaydarin ("focuser of the heart") would be focus cordis, dae'uhl ("great stewardship") would be vīlicātiō magna, and "khala's law" (a phrase from the manual) would be lēx ascēnsiōnis ("law of ascension"). In Chinese, "path of ascension" would be translated as 提升之路 tíshēng zhī lù (I googled this to make sure and it is a real turn of phrase). You will notice that protoss words and phrases, at least those invented early in the lore's development, are much shorter than the equivalent in human languages. In fact, more than a few key concepts were never actually given Khalani translations, such as the "Chain of Ascension" (in Latin vinculum ascēnsiōnis).

Honestly, the word "khala" itself has become overused and refers to multiple distinct concepts. It refers to the protoss' telepathic/empathic communication method or whatever it is called since there is no consistent terminology for it (which was never really explained in much detail, not distinguished from regular telepathy), a power source for psychic powers (possibly a conflation or confusion with the psi matrix), a scientific theory for harnessing psychic power, a declaration of a caste system, a religion and law system for enforcing its use, an internet, an afterlife, etc.

[ragnarok]

Interesting script indeed, I'll see what ideas I can pull out of it