Your Own Campaign

[Visions of Khas]

We've all got our gripes about StarCraft, BroodWar, and SCII. We've discussed Enumerate and various ways to fix the existing storyline, or scrap it entirely.

You've got an army of code-monkeys at your disposal, so you didn't have to worry about personally making the maps in the Galaxy Editor. Ignore its limitations. What sort of campaign would YOU make? Would it be a story-driven campaign? Various disconnected maps with exciting game mechanics, like the Marauder Series? Maybe a hands-off visual story like a Machinima? A first-person shooter? Would you expand on existing fan campaigns, like The Antioch Chronicles?

Would you fill in gaps in the original campaigns, or ignore them entirely?

What units would you create? What characters, races, and worlds?



All limitations aside, what sort of game and story would be your dream to make in the StarCraft universe?

[ragnarok]

We've all got our gripes about StarCraft, BroodWar, and SCII. We've discussed Enumerate and various ways to fix the existing storyline, or scrap it entirely.

You've got an army of code-monkeys at your disposal, so you didn't have to worry about personally making the maps in the Galaxy Editor. Ignore its limitations. What sort of campaign would YOU make? Would it be a story-driven campaign? Various disconnected maps with exciting game mechanics, like the Marauder Series? Maybe a hands-off visual story like a Machinima? A first-person shooter? Would you expand on existing fan campaigns, like The Antioch Chronicles?

Would you fill in gaps in the original campaigns, or ignore them entirely?

What units would you create? What characters, races, and worlds?



All limitations aside, what sort of game and story would be your dream to make in the StarCraft universe?

I would consider throwing away the whole Spectres book and make a Tosh campaign. After all, he saw what a monster Mengsk was after the Battle of Shi, I'd hope to see how he would rebel against him

[sandwich_bird]

A clash of clan like starcraft mobile game :D

jk. There are lots of things I'd like with the universe. Hard to say which one I'd want the most. Probably a gritty story driven RPG/FPSorTPS hybrid with light strategy elements and drop-in/out coop that loosely follows vanilla story and allow you to play Terran or Protoss. I think that's the experience I crave the most at this point.

[Visions of Khas]

I would consider throwing away the whole Spectres book and make a Tosh campaign. After all, he saw what a monster Mengsk was after the Battle of Shi, I'd hope to see how he would rebel against him


Okay, how would you go about that? Would it be like a top-down RPG, or more classic strategy game?


There are lots of things I'd like with the universe. Hard to say which one I'd want the most. Probably a gritty story driven RPG/FPSorTPS hybrid with light strategy elements and drop-in/out coop that loosely follows vanilla story and allow you to play Terran or Protoss.

"RPG/FPS Hybrid"? Oh, you mean something like Mass Effect for StarCraft?

[sandwich_bird]

"RPG/FPS Hybrid"? Oh, you mean something like Mass Effect for StarCraft?

Yup, like Mass effect. That would be amazing. By light strategy element I don't mean squad tactics though. More like pre-mission allied force placement and macro orders or something like that; no actual unit control during gameplay apart from your dude. That's mostly just to spice it up and respect the IP origin.

[Visions of Khas]

Well, Amon's already Assumed Direct Control once, so why not? I tried to play StarCraft Universe when it was in open beta a few years back and I just couldn't get into it. Then again, MMOs like that have never been my favorite. I'd love to play through the Swarm's invasion of Tarsonis, watching Zerg and Protoss fight overhead while I battle through Zerg and terran deserters. That would be a badass end to a story act.

[Robear]

I'll take a Rogue Squadron/TIE Fighter game in the SC universe. I would enjoy that.

[ragnarok]

Okay, how would you go about that? Would it be like a top-down RPG, or more classic strategy game?


I'm thinking more RPG style. After all, Tosh would have to interact and likely do favors for people in order to gather allies to go against Mengsk. It'd also be harder because he doesn't have Raynor's reputation and all. For the whole bringing Nova into the mix, I'd probably let that rest for at least the first half of the campaign

[Turalyon]

This is a bit of a sidetrack but in terms of story, I've sometimes wondered what an adventure game using the Starcraft universe as the backbone would look like. Telltale are good at using other properties and crafting stories that can exist on their own/ not have to necessarily tie-in with the mainline canon.

I've kind of given up hope that any story would be interesting to tell through a strategy game these days.

[sandwich_bird]

I'll take a Rogue Squadron/TIE Fighter game in the SC universe. I would enjoy that.

Yes!


I'd love to play through the Swarm's invasion of Tarsonis, watching Zerg and Protoss fight overhead while I battle through Zerg and terran deserters. That would be a badass end to a story act.

Yes!


This is a bit of a sidetrack but in terms of story, I've sometimes wondered what an adventure game using the Starcraft universe as the backbone would look like.

You kinda got a taste of it with the SC2 campaign. I'd be down for a full telltale game though assuming the story isn't stupid.



I've kind of given up hope that any story would be interesting to tell through a strategy game these days.

How come? None of us would be here if it was impossible. Blizzard honestly does a great job at telling the story even if the writing is bad. It's hard to do but there are other good examples out there too.



Well, Amon's already Assumed Direct Control once, so why not? I tried to play StarCraft Universe when it was in open beta a few years back and I just couldn't get into it. Then again, MMOs like that have never been my favorite.

Not sure I understand the Amon's comment.

SC:U was unfortunately limited by the engine. These limitation coupled with some overly and unnecessary complex systems(mostly talking about the ship stuff here) are what turned most people away I think. It's an amazing game otherwise even if I'm also not a fan of MMO's typical combat mechanics. The devs are really talented. You should give it another try, once you get passed the rough edges maybe you'll enjoy it. But yeah, it's the closest thing I currently can get to what I described earlier.

[Gradius]

Mass Effect style shooter, only you play as a Protoss and have access to insane abilities. The exploration aspect would be insanely cool in a universe like StarCraft. Maybe have it set in a post SC2 world where Protoss are allowed to visit terran planets.

[Mislagnissa]

What characters, races, and worlds? Focusing on the small-scale is a given. It would use the backdrop of a galactic war between the three races started by the Zerg who are the big bads of the setting. It is more difficult to imagine what you can't explore. I could write an endless list of possible plots to explore.


Zerg invade Terran world, Protoss fight Zerg on Terran world, Terrans defend themselves against Zerg and Protoss
Rebels rebel against Confederate tyranny
Confederacy experiments with Zerg
Nerazim assist Terran world in repelling Zerg invasion
Zerg invade Protoss world, Protoss fight Zerg invaders
Zerg invade Nerazim world, Nerazim fight Zerg invaders
Dominions unites KMC and Umoja as client states, but they secretly undermine its authority
Rebels rebel against Dominion tyranny
Terrans enslave Zerg, Protoss enslave Zerg, Nerazim enslave Zerg
Zerg fight brood wars
Protoss attack hive world, Zerg repel Protoss attack on hive world
Pirates try to steal goods
Protoss fight civil war between Terran sympathizers and genocidal Judicators
Protoss fight civil war between Khala and Void
Xava'kai/Taldarim plot the destruction of Protoss, Taldarim enslave Zerg
Overmind dies, Overmind resurrects, Swarm changes priorities
Protoss fight Terrans, Protoss ally with Terrans


The list goes on.


We've discussed Enumerate

Really? Every single thread I created went off into a tangent about Tassadar versus Duke or Amon's plan because nobody was interested in discussing Enumerate. Which is strange, considering the other threads about rewriting SC independently came to the same conclusions.

[ragnarok]

Mass Effect style shooter, only you play as a Protoss and have access to insane abilities. The exploration aspect would be insanely cool in a universe like StarCraft. Maybe have it set in a post SC2 world where Protoss are allowed to visit terran planets.

What kind of insane abilities are you thinking of? (Because I never got into the ME universe)

[Visions of Khas]

Not sure I understand the Amon's comment.

Amon basically Harbinger'd the Protoss, Moebius Foundation, and Zerg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eslzvaLczoA). Nevermind.


Really? Every single thread I created went off into a tangent about Tassadar versus Duke or Amon's plan because nobody was interested in discussing Enumerate.

Well, I've seen you discuss it. :p

Gradius, what about you? I always loved your mini-campaigns from the past.

[ragnarok]

That's actually something I'm curious on, since I've seen his Subjection campaign, wondered why he chose the ME path this time

[Nissa]

Um, I would do a second expansion set, which would go Zerg-'Toss-Terran, and would wrap up a lot of major arcs, like Kerrigan's and perhaps the hybrids. It would focus on human independence from Earth, Protoss reconstruction, and the Swarm's lack of leadership (losing both Kerri and now can no longer have an Overmind). It would be like Brood War, in that it expands the units, but really is more about finishing up the story than anything else (which was, quite frankly, the only aspect of Starcraft that really required a sequel).

Afterwards, Mengsk would still be in power, but we'd see more from other political leaders, like, we'd actually interact with Mengsk's rivals for Korhal, Umojan leaders, and Kel-Morian guild leaders. Kerrigan would be imprisoned and used in scientific experiments. Raynor would be cruising the stars, helping out people and generally sticking to less populated border worlds. He would only come out of his self-imposed exile to potentially negotiate with Protoss who have problems with other Terran factions, and he's gotta smooth things over (assuming he wants to). Artie-fo-farty is still a leader of minimal influence, primarily dealing with military stuff. Zeratul accepts that he isn't really a leader of large groups, and helps set up a civilian government for the Protoss.

All that stuff is more or less a setup for any smaller stories that will be told in the series. Stuff like SC:Ghost, that's more up close and personal with the Starcraft world.

[Visions of Khas]

Nissa, so essentially a campaign that would set up a grander background status quo, serving as backdrop for more personal stories; A sort of stasis or stalemate between major factions, similar to the one present in WarHammer 40K?

[Nissa]

Nissa, so essentially a campaign that would set up a grander background status quo, serving as backdrop for more personal stories; A sort of stasis or stalemate between major factions, similar to the one present in WarHammer 40K?

I'm not really familiar with Warhammer, but essentially that, yeah. A stasis is the single most logical thing for Starcraft to have. After all, the Protoss are going through tough times, the humans are losing any logical reason to fight them or follow Mengsk (or any singular-styled government), and the Zerg have a dearth of usable characters. They need to simmer down. By sidelining Kerrigan and denying an Overmind, the Zerg are more animallian and have to resort to casual survival. This keeps them from provoking crap in the K Sector, since they're the real reason that the 'Toss and the humans were even fighting in the first place. After all these wars, I can't imagine that the other two races much want to fight each other.

[Gradius]

Gradius, what about you? I always loved your mini-campaigns from the past.
Isn't it obvious? I'm going to make the first Enumerate campaign. :p

I've always liked campaigns where you play as the bad guy and just ones that explore cool concepts:
1) Purifier campaign. Your heroes never die, and you lead a nigh-invincible army of the protoss' greatest warriors and cannon-fodder replicators. Your only limiting factor is resources.
2) Ulrezaj campaign. Would be fun to have a unit as OP as him.
3) Xel'Naga campaign. Very plausible given all the assets I made for Origins. I'd go into how they fight hostile aliens and defended themselves when the zerg and protoss turned on them.
4) Amon campaign. Something SC2 sorely lacked.
5) A hybrid survivor of the end war takes over a brood and plots his revenge.
6) Your campaign of the Templar infused with void, khala and terrazine.

Otherwise, I'd try to tailor a terran campaign to be as dark and gritty as possible. All the characters would be bad people and everyone would just get constantly shat on.

[Visions of Khas]

Otherwise, I'd try to tailor a terran campaign to be as dark and gritty as possible. All the characters would be bad people and everyone would just get constantly shat on.

So you'd G.R.R. Martin the shit out of that campaign. :p


1) Purifier campaign.

I've been browsing through Mapster lately and I've been seeing a lot of projects seemingly fall into disuse. Even new projects are receiving next to no attention from the users. It makes me very sad to see fan-made material go unseen and uncared about. :( Which makes me question the use of creating something on par with CybrosX's maps (https://www.sc2mapster.com/projects/custom-dlc-unification-purifiers). All that effort, and... where's the return? God I hope to see Antioch Chronicles 3 someday.

[Turalyon]

How come? None of us would be here if it was impossible. Blizzard honestly does a great job at telling the story even if the writing is bad. It's hard to do but there are other good examples out there too.

I said "these days". There are barely any other high-profile RTS games in recent times let alone any with original or memorable stories.

Oh, and Blizz did a great job storytelling using bad writing? Huh, I never heard that defence before...

[Gradius]

So you'd G.R.R. Martin the shit out of that campaign. :p


I've been browsing through Mapster lately and I've been seeing a lot of projects seemingly fall into disuse. Even new projects are receiving next to no attention from the users. It makes me very sad to see fan-made material go unseen and uncared about. :( Which makes me question the use of creating something on par with CybrosX's maps (https://www.sc2mapster.com/projects/custom-dlc-unification-purifiers). All that effort, and... where's the return? God I hope to see Antioch Chronicles 3 someday.
Yeah I did some of the voice acting for that one, it was a nifty project.

Werent they remaking LoTC with a huge budget? What happened to that?

[Visions of Khas]

What is that, Legacy of the Confederacy? I never played through the original. I remember seeing some very old custom cutscenes made for that or a similar campaign. I didn't think the remake went anywhere.

[sandwich_bird]

Oh, and Blizz did a great job storytelling using bad writing? Huh, I never heard that defence before...

The execution was good if you prefer. They really balance well gameplay and story telling. You have in-game cut-scenes, high def cinematics, intermission adventure mode, lore on all units and upgrades, etc. This is unprecedented in RTS. If only the story wasn't so stupid...


4) Amon campaign. Something SC2 sorely lacked.
5) A hybrid survivor of the end war takes over a brood and plots his revenge.

I'd be interested in hearing more about the hybrids for sure. Presumably they have identities as deep as any protoss but we barely see any of that.

[Mislagnissa]

I would be interested in a campaign where the Zerg assimilated Terrans and deployed armies of their new psychic warrior breeds against the Protoss on Aiur. This was promised in the SC1 manual but the campaign never delivered.

[ragnarok]

I said "these days". There are barely any other high-profile RTS games in recent times let alone any with original or memorable stories.

Oh, and Blizz did a great job storytelling using bad writing? Huh, I never heard that defence before...

It's exactly this that I feel the battlenet forum people do NOTHING but complain about how shitty the story is, and how Blizzard's only success in the SC2 storyline was they failed EVERYTHING

[Turalyon]

The execution was good if you prefer. They really balance well gameplay and story telling. You have in-game cut-scenes, high def cinematics, intermission adventure mode, lore on all units and upgrades, etc. This is unprecedented in RTS. If only the story wasn't so stupid...

I disagree. When it comes to narrative execution, WoL is the worst of the Sc2 trilogy since it's narrative path is an incoherent hodge podge of randomly occurring events. The cinematics are vignettes that don't tie into a single narrative and the missions have no narrative value beyond being a shopping list of things to get out of the way for the next vignette to show or exposition dump to occur. When cut down to the bare essential missions, WoL's story is about picking up plot coupons for the purpose of assisting to resolve a particular problem which may or may not truly succeed, only for that to be ultimately sidelined or tacitly deemed not possible to then suddenly have those plot coupons resolve another, even greater intractable problem quickly and conveniently.

In comparison, HotS and LotV have much more refined narrative execution and cohesion in that there's a logical route you can follow from start, middle to finish... it's just that the story being told in those was more observably mundane than WoL's was. WoL is only considered better (or memorable) because of all the affect and distractions away from the mundane core story it was telling.

[Mislagnissa]

It's exactly this that I feel the battlenet forum people do NOTHING but complain about how shitty the story is, and how Blizzard's only success in the SC2 storyline was they failed EVERYTHING

That includes people who were introduced to the franchise through SC2. The only memorable characters are Tychus, Alarak, Abathur and Dehaka. Unsurprisingly, they are also the only characters who act in believable fashion or even have beliefs and motives of their own independent of the overarching narrative. All the other characters are either bland or psychotic.

Raynor is a drunkard in love with a genocidal lunatic, who only gets off his ass after Tychus tells him to and rewards Tychus with a bullet to the face. Kerry is a bipolar, schizophrenic psychopath who butchers billions of innocent people just because she can. Artanis is just bland, demonstrates no depth beyond a generic proud warrior stereotype, and overturns a vaguely alluded religion that nobody cared about to begin with and only ever served as a plot device for mass demonic possession. Amon is a two-dimensional space demon that leads the sith lords and makes stupid speeches about logical fallacies before getting shanked like a bitch.

Rag, you aren't the only person here who was introduced through SC2. I played the original as a child when it first came out but I only got interested in SC again a couple years ago. So I was looking at it all with new eyes because I could barely remember my first experiences. I still came to the conclusion that SC2 had a crap storyline. Not only that, but the storyline of BW was crap. Indeed, the addition of QoB back in SC1 was crap. As a person who effectively became a fan only a couple years ago, I still think that the original manual's premise of the Zerg trying to assimilate Terrans to assimilate Protoss is the superior plot point and everything that came after was crap.

You are an outlier even among people who were introduced through SC2. I am pretty sure the awful story is most of the reason why mappers cannot muster the effort to make custom campaigns. Even if the editor was poorly supported, that did not stop the Warcraft 3 community from making hundreds of custom campaigns. People are still making Warcraft 3 custom campaigns long after release.

[sandwich_bird]

I disagree. When it comes to narrative execution, WoL is the worst of the Sc2 trilogy since it's narrative path is an incoherent hodge podge of randomly occurring events. The cinematics are vignettes that don't tie into a single narrative and the missions have no narrative value beyond being a shopping list of things to get out of the way for the next vignette to show or exposition dump to occur. When cut down to the bare essential missions, WoL's story is about picking up plot coupons for the purpose of assisting to resolve a particular problem which may or may not truly succeed, only for that to be ultimately sidelined or tacitly deemed not possible to then suddenly have those plot coupons resolve another, even greater intractable problem quickly and conveniently.


I agree with what you're saying but I don't think you're getting me here. To me those are all story problems, not execution issues. The mechanics of having side quests and etc are perfectly ok. It's not the mechanics fault if what they tell is disconnected non-sense. Same with the cinematics. Basically what I'm saying is that the book has a nice cover, good pictures, good use of the english language, good use of font, etc but what is written is garbage. Or, there's a guy telling you a story, he wears multiple nice costumes, a fog machine, he's really expressive and probably the best actor you've ever seen... but his story is garbage.

[Turalyon]

I agree with what you're saying but I don't think you're getting me here. To me those are all story problems, not execution issues. The mechanics of having side quests and etc are perfectly ok. It's not the mechanics fault if what they tell is disconnected non-sense. Same with the cinematics.

Eh, I dunno. I wouldn't consider a game having side-quests, cinematics, dialogue, lore etc to be "good execution" since all AAA games have this. You must therefore agree then that all AAA games must have "good execution"?


Basically what I'm saying is that the book has a nice cover, good pictures, good use of the english language, good use of font, etc but what is written is garbage. Or, there's a guy telling you a story, he wears multiple nice costumes, a fog machine, he's really expressive and probably the best actor you've ever seen... but his story is garbage.

Ah, I think the word you're looking for here is "specious". Yes, Sc2 is most definitely this.

[sandwich_bird]

Eh, I dunno. I wouldn't consider a game having side-quests, cinematics, dialogue, lore etc to be "good execution" since all AAA games have this. You must therefore agree then that all AAA games must have "good execution"?

Not all (ME: A) but many. In terms of AAA RTS though, I can't say the same. Obviously, there's a much smaller pool to compare. But, for example, I tried Spellforce 3 recently and felt that the story wasn't properly delivered even if it sounds alright so far. It's really about the whole experience I guess. SC2 is a great experience from start to finish despite the bad story(imo anyways). Huh, admittedly this is all very loose subjective stuff. I'd have to think more on this to have a better position.




Ah, I think the word you're looking for here is "specious". Yes, Sc2 is most definitely this.

yeah, that might be it.

[KaiserStratosTygo]

I would do what I tried to do in the Galaxy Editor, and create my "uprising" campaign under a different name, with new units, spells and custom models, six campaigns in the vein of SC1's campaign style.

[ragnarok]

I would do what I tried to do in the Galaxy Editor, and create my "uprising" campaign under a different name, with new units, spells and custom models, six campaigns in the vein of SC1's campaign style.

If you eventually do it, I'd take a look Stratos

[Visions of Khas]

I would do what I tried to do in the Galaxy Editor, and create my "uprising" campaign under a different name, with new units, spells and custom models, six campaigns in the vein of SC1's campaign style.

What was that about?

[Robear]

Just as a side note, if they release a Warcraft 3 Remastered with a slightly edited WC3 map editor, how funny would it be if people used SC models to make a SC2 custom campaign in the WC3 engine since the editor was a good deal more accessible?

[Visions of Khas]

Just as a side note, if they release a Warcraft 3 Remastered with a slightly edited WC3 map editor, how funny would it be if people used SC models to make a SC2 custom campaign in the WC3 engine since the editor was a good deal more accessible?

I am really surprised Blizzard never cleaned up the galaxy editor. I thought I remembered them saying they would, years ago.

[KaiserStratosTygo]

What was that about?

It was my interpretation of a "proper" Brood War sequel, not too dissimilar to the common idea of a Zerg -> Protoss -> Terran campaign with the main antagonist being a Protoss.

[Gradius]

I am really surprised Blizzard never cleaned up the galaxy editor. I thought I remembered them saying they would, years ago.
They don't have to. People have worked their asses off to learn it and pump out content anyway.

[Visions of Khas]

Okay, Kaiser, how would that have played out? How do you make the protoss into the aggressors?

Grad, it seems as though there would be even MORE content if the galaxy editor were more accessible. From my perspective, the modding community is currently suffering its final death throes.

[Gradius]

Yeah but that’s a really small percentage of the player base that even cares about that kind of stuff and it’s not dying due to the lack of content, though I’m sure more would help. Look at the custom campaign initiative, there’s a bunch of stuff there.

My theory is that it’s dying because nobody can really take the StarCraft universe seriously anymore. It’s just kind of went off the rails and anything can happen now in the story. But yeah, some more support for the modding community could have helped for sure, especially if Blizz actually delivered on their promise to create the marketplace. That way mappers could have some actual motivation to put in the countless manhours required to trudge through the editor.

[Turalyon]

Okay, Kaiser, how would that have played out? How do you make the protoss into the aggressors?

Some of us bandied this out in that other thread Nissa created - that one about continuing on from BW/recreating BW.

I guess it'd be something similar to what the Tal'Darim are now. Given that the breadth of the Protoss empire hasn't really been explored, you could have some loyalist Protoss re-grouping and coming back from the outer colonies to agressively reclaim their home and territory. My personal favourite was to have actual "evil" Dark Templar - kinda like a band of opportunistic pirates coming to raid the devastated sector akin to WH40Ks Dark Eldar. It'd be nice to have some "evil" Dark Templar to drive home/justify the fear the Conclave/Aiur Protoss had of them.

[Visions of Khas]

Yeah but that’s a really small percentage of the player base that even cares about that kind of stuff and it’s not dying due to the lack of content, though I’m sure more would help.
Well, I did forget to note that there is a wonderful support community on Discord. When I was learning the editor a few months back, someone on Mapster directed me there, and the help and support and knowledge I got was absolutely amazing. Almost as though people were being paid to do what Blizzard should have been doing. Weird, huh.


... I legit wonder if people were being paid. Users would be on the chat for hours at a time doing nothing but answering mod related questions, and very complicated ones at that.

[ragnarok]

I am really surprised Blizzard never cleaned up the galaxy editor. I thought I remembered them saying they would, years ago.

I don't recall any official news of that. Maybe they just said they planned to in the future, and then used the whole "but we never said how long in the future" concept.

[Mislagnissa]

Some of us bandied this out in that other thread Nissa created - that one about continuing on from BW/recreating BW.

I guess it'd be something similar to what the Tal'Darim are now. Given that the breadth of the Protoss empire hasn't really been explored, you could have some loyalist Protoss re-grouping and coming back from the outer colonies to agressively reclaim their home and territory. My personal favourite was to have actual "evil" Dark Templar - kinda like a band of opportunistic pirates coming to raid the devastated sector akin to WH40Ks Dark Eldar. It'd be nice to have some "evil" Dark Templar to drive home/justify the fear the Conclave/Aiur Protoss had of them.

Canon is terribly inconsistent about scale. In the SC1 manual the Protoss had an empire stretching across an 8th of the galaxy on the fringe, with numerous alien races as client states, although only a few hundred or thousand planets are probably colonized. In SC2, Aiur is in the Koprulu sector and the only planet besides Shakuras that was colonized by Protoss.

The conclave was afraid of the nerazim because they created devastating psychic storms, not because they were pirates. The rogue tribes were isolationist. That doesn't justify the conclave's fear, except in the sense that they will doublethink and claim the piracy was always the reason rather than a convenient excuse to marginalize the non-pirates.

A protoss reconquista is pretty much the plot of Enumerate's brood wars arc, btw. Nissa suggested shanking QoB, which is more or less what Enumerate already does. I am really surprised you guys don't just adopt Enumerate since it already does almost everything you are suggesting. The void pirates are missing, sure, but only because the author found protoss really bland or something.


Yeah but that’s a really small percentage of the player base that even cares about that kind of stuff and it’s not dying due to the lack of content, though I’m sure more would help. Look at the custom campaign initiative, there’s a bunch of stuff there.

My theory is that it’s dying because nobody can really take the StarCraft universe seriously anymore. It’s just kind of went off the rails and anything can happen now in the story. But yeah, some more support for the modding community could have helped for sure, especially if Blizz actually delivered on their promise to create the marketplace. That way mappers could have some actual motivation to put in the countless manhours required to trudge through the editor.

I suspect that is the reason as well. Since the story is so ridiculous very few can muster up the effort to write stories set in that universe.

Which, again, is the reason why I think Enumerate is the path to salvation. If it gets popular enough, in the same way that male pregnancy has come to dominate fanfiction in general, it might lead to a revival of the modding scene.

[Nissa]

Which, again, is the reason why I think Enumerate is the path to salvation. If it gets popular enough, in the same way that male pregnancy has come to dominate fanfiction in general, it might lead to a revival of the modding scene.

Enumerate would only "save the day" if people cared. People don't care. The source of the problem is Blizz, and fanon isn't going to fix that.

And seriously, male pregnancy? That's really a thing these days? Back in my day it was completely inappropriate pairings.


The conclave was afraid of the nerazim because they created devastating psychic storms, not because they were pirates. The rogue tribes were isolationist. That doesn't justify the conclave's fear, except in the sense that they will doublethink and claim the piracy was always the reason rather than a convenient excuse to marginalize the non-pirates.

You're kind of mistaken. There's no reason to assume that there was only one problem with the Dark Templar, nor is there reason to assume that there was only ever one group of Dark Templar. If you read the manual, you'll notice that there's actually more than one batch of them. The first batch were the original exiles sent off by Adun, and the later ones were the ones who severed their nerve cords in sympathy for the exiled. The exiles themselves might have been peaceful, but the later ones could have potentially rebelled violently. Not that later Starcraft ever bothered to make much of this plot point.

[Turalyon]

The conclave was afraid of the nerazim because they created devastating psychic storms, not because they were pirates. The rogue tribes were isolationist. That doesn't justify the conclave's fear, except in the sense that they will doublethink and claim the piracy was always the reason rather than a convenient excuse to marginalize the non-pirates.

The Protoss fear no-one but their own kind. The Conclave fear the Nerazim because to them, they represent the unbridled and wilful Protoss that led to Aeon of Strife and the near extinction of their race by their own hands. It informs why the Khala Protoss were so rigid. Because it was their own weakness that almost destroyed them, they had to order themselves and remove those adverse elements to avoid the potential for such a disaster to recur. The Nerazim are that potential because they are free-spirited. This can be good - as displayed by Zeratul, but it can just as equally and most likely be bad, like it was during the Aeon of Strife. I would imagine the possibility of "pirates"/ "evil" Protoss existing in the present time would be quite high.


I am really surprised you guys don't just adopt Enumerate since it already does almost everything you are suggesting.

Eh, we're just talking fanon and having fun speculating what could've and would've been. I'm not as militant as you about what should've been.

[Gradius]

Enumerate would only "save the day" if people cared. People don't care. The source of the problem is Blizz, and fanon isn't going to fix that.
Bingo.

[sandwich_bird]

in the same way that male pregnancy has come to dominate fanfiction in general

Wtf.. Why? How?

[Visions of Khas]

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51D22W46JYL._SY445_.jpg

[Mislagnissa]

Enumerate would only "save the day" if people cared. People don't care. The source of the problem is Blizz, and fanon isn't going to fix that.Then these "people" you speak should stop whining and get off their lazy asses. Blizzard is never going to fix the "problem" you speak of. What do you expect them to do? Make a Brood War 2 campaign DLC? That won't fix anything.

StarCraft 2 ended with the three races sitting around a campfire singing kumbaya, since all their reasons for war were retconned away. Those retcons started as early as StarCraft 1 when Kerry replaced the determinant and Duran's hybrids replaced the grand experiment, so the much-desired Brood War 2 would not fix them. Brood War 2 would end up with the Zerg extinct while the Protoss and Terrans either sit around a campfire singing kumbaya or warmonger into oblivion for the Protoss genocide of Terran worlds (assuming it wasn't magically forgotten like so many other things). Or something along those lines.

The only way Blizzard could fix things would be with a reboot that more or less follows the outline presented in Enumerate (which itself merely streamlines the canon story line to follow the pre-Metzen lore). There's no chance in hell of that ever happening. Blizzard has all but abandoned the RTS genre to focus on the FPS scene.

I never expected "fanon" fix anything but the seemingly bankrupt creativity of the modding community. Every time I see a SC2 custom campaign where the three races are living harmoniously until a new villain comes out of the woodwork, I die a little bit inside. The same goes for all the BW custom campaigns where the same tiny cast of recurring canon characters maintain a stranglehold over the story. I feel really sorry for the authors of those campaigns, because they are wasting their bountiful effort and creativity on Blizzard's small-minded, creatively bankrupt bullshit.


Eh, we're just talking fanon and having fun speculating what could've and would've been. I'm not as militant as you about what should've been.Not my point. You guys keep speculating in circles without any awareness of what came before. You keep going back to the same half-dozen characters and the same conventions over and over. There are dozens of custom campaigns that already well and truly trod your same ideas. The only thing that hasn't been discussed to death is what StarCraft could have been like with a remotely realistic scale, original characters and original stories, and without incongruous fantasy conventions like chosen ones, evil overlords and legendary heroes.

That sort of stagnancy doesn't bother you, does it? It drove me to love/hate this franchise with the burning intensity of a thousand suns.

[Gradius]

Then these "people" you speak should stop whining and get off their lazy asses. Blizzard is never going to fix the "problem" you speak of. What do you expect them to do? Make a Brood War 2 campaign DLC? That won't fix anything.

StarCraft 2 ended with the three races sitting around a campfire singing kumbaya, since all their reasons for war were retconned away. Those retcons started as early as StarCraft 1 when Kerry replaced the determinant and Duran's hybrids replaced the grand experiment, so the much-desired Brood War 2 would not fix them. Brood War 2 would end up with the Zerg extinct while the Protoss and Terrans either sit around a campfire singing kumbaya or warmonger into oblivion for the Protoss genocide of Terran worlds (assuming it wasn't magically forgotten like so many other things). Or something along those lines.

The only way Blizzard could fix things would be with a reboot that more or less follows the outline presented in Enumerate (which itself merely streamlines the canon story line to follow the pre-Metzen lore). There's no chance in hell of that ever happening. Blizzard has all but abandoned the RTS genre to focus on the FPS scene.

I never expected "fanon" fix anything but the seemingly bankrupt creativity of the modding community. Every time I see a SC2 custom campaign where the three races are living harmoniously until a new villain comes out of the woodwork, I die a little bit inside. The same goes for all the BW custom campaigns where the same tiny cast of recurring canon characters maintain a stranglehold over the story. I feel really sorry for the authors of those campaigns, because they are wasting their bountiful effort and creativity on Blizzard's small-minded, creatively bankrupt bullshit.
1) These people have at least created something whereas so far you've made...nothing? So calling them lazy is hypocritical at best.

2) If someone is going to make a non-canon campaign, trust me, they'll find something to base their story off of and they can base it off canon instead of a non-canon 150 page document. There have now been dozens of StarCraft campaigns about one-off conflicts, which, according to you, should be impossible without Enumerate. And yet, there they are. And wow, so far none of them have used Enumerate. People don't care.

3) Using Enumerate isn't necessarily going to make your campaign better. You're asking both the creator and players to worry about nerd shit that nobody has time for. It could be set in the coolest setting ever, yet still not hold a candle to campaigns like Antioch Chronicles, The Shifters, Perfect Soldiers, etc due to lack of good characterization, good dialog, memorable moments, plot and pacing issues, etc. The setting isn't so bad that it's some massive limiting factor to making good shit especially since people can make their own alternate universes anyway, but with the advent of SC2 the setting is bad enough that even the best fan-fiction won't save the dying story/campaign community.

4) As a creator, if I was to make an AU campaign...I'd make my AU campaign the way I want it and with the detail I want. I don't care about making some other dude's vision come to life. That's just me, but I can't help extrapolate it to everyone else.

[Turalyon]

Not my point. You guys keep speculating in circles without any awareness of what came before. You keep going back to the same half-dozen characters and the same conventions over and over. There are dozens of custom campaigns that already well and truly trod your same ideas.

So... now you're complaining about people liking what's there and fanoning about that stuff in a thread that is literally asking for other peoples opinions on what they want Sc to be?


The only thing that hasn't been discussed to death is what StarCraft could have been like with a remotely realistic scale, original characters and original stories, and without incongruous fantasy conventions like chosen ones, evil overlords and legendary heroes.

The reason why is because that's a niche perspective that not everyone holds. I'm fine with your particular take on it and acknowledge its merits but your constant hyperbole that only your perspective should be (or rather "is") the only "proper" take is rather grating.


That sort of stagnancy doesn't bother you, does it? It drove me to love/hate this franchise with the burning intensity of a thousand suns.

Nope. It's testament to how "ok" (I won't say "good" because then you might develop an aneurysm or something) the Sc1/BW story is that it's the only thing that's still worth talking about here even 2 decades later, whereas no-one gives a fart about Sc2s story.

[Mislagnissa]

1) These people have at least created something whereas so far you've made...nothing? So calling them lazy is hypocritical at best.I did share an alpha map for play testing... but you are right. I was wrong and what I meant to refer to were people who were not mapping because they were bummed at the awful SC2 story and wanted Blizzard to fix it somehow even though that will never happen. Although I doubt many people fulfilling that exact criterion exist, I am sorry for not making that clear.


2) If someone is going to make a non-canon campaign, trust me, they'll find something to base their story off of and they can base it off canon instead of a non-canon 150 page document. I do not give a flying crap about the 150 page document and I fully recognize that it has flaws of its own. I just like the dozen page timeline that condenses all the important plot points since it makes so much more sense than canon.


There have now been dozens of StarCraft campaigns about one-off conflicts, which, according to you, should be impossible without Enumerate. And yet, there they are. And wow, so far none of them have used Enumerate. People don't care.And I would know, since I maintain a list of them. The one-off campaigns might as well be set in Enumerate for all the difference it makes. That is one of the strengths of the Enumerate timeline: it is pretty much what everyone else would have imagined anyway. The vast majority of existing campaigns may be fit into it with minor rewrites regardless of whether they follow canon or not.

For example, the abandoned "Brood" SC2 campaign where a brood mother tries to escape Char after WoL could be easily fit into the brood wars arc of Enumerate by find/replacing "brood mother" with "cerebrate" and "queen of blades" with "overmind."


3) Using Enumerate isn't necessarily going to make your campaign better. You're asking both the creator and players to worry about nerd shit that nobody has time for.I do not have time for that nerd shit either. I have barely read the 150 page document myself since the dozen page timeline already has everything I would need to start with.


It could be set in the coolest setting ever, yet still not hold a candle to campaigns like Antioch Chronicles, The Shifters, Perfect Soldiers, etc due to lack of good characterization, good dialog, memorable moments, plot and pacing issues, etc. I never said that Enumerate would make a campaign automatically better, since it is only a broad strokes outline for a setting that other authors may use as a backdrop. If authors want a decent alternative timeline to canon and want to appear as though their campaigns all take place in the same shared universe, the Enumerate timeline serves that purpose.


The setting isn't so bad that it's some massive limiting factor to making good shit especially since people can make their own alternate universes anyway, but with the advent of SC2 the setting is bad enough that even the best fan-fiction won't save the dying story/campaign community.But sure, players and creators are mindlessly drawn to canon and if canon alienates them then they won't bother to look for the best fanfiction alternative. And that's terrible, so excuse me if I do not want to go gently into that darkness.


4) As a creator, if I was to make an AU campaign...I'd make my AU campaign the way I want it and with the detail I want. I don't care about making some other dude's vision come to life. That's just me, but I can't help extrapolate it to everyone else.If you did make your own timeline, and I would love to see that BTW, would it meaningfully differ from the Enumerate timeline? How are you so sure that you would not come to the same conclusion independently? Because from where I am standing, every time someone tries to imagine an alternate timeline they keep coming to the same conclusions.


So... now you're complaining about people liking what's there and fanoning about that stuff in a thread that is literally asking for other peoples opinions on what they want Sc to be?I actually like the original ideas floating around like making the Taldarim into an evil counterpart/branch of Nerazim or positing that the Nerazim include both hippy isolationists and greedy space pirates. It is one of the things I criticize Enumerate for missing.

What grates on me is the hyper-focus on the small cast of characters from SC1, even though there are literally tens of billions of humans living in Koprulu sector alone. The licensed expansions and EU stories are completely forgotten/ignored.


The reason why is because that's a niche perspective that not everyone holds. I'm fine with your particular take on it and acknowledge its merits but your constant hyperbole that only your perspective should be (or rather "is") the only "proper" take is rather grating.How it is it a niche perspective? Who here has been advocating an epic space fantasy setting? I am pretty sure the only thing even close to that was simply to focus your fanfiction on the canon characters while ignoring the wider universe around them. Which is far from the case, as a number of suggestions have been about original stories with original characters and original or revised factions. As far as I can tell, the majority of suggested revisions to the setting independently came to the same conclusions I did.


Nope. It's testament to how "ok" (I won't say "good" because then you might develop an aneurysm or something) the Sc1/BW story is that it's the only thing that's still worth talking about here even 2 decades later, whereas no-one gives a fart about Sc2s story.Insurrection and Retribution have okay/good/whatever stories. Why are you not discussing them? Jack Frost was awesome!

[Nissa]

Mislag, you're being pretty hostile over something that isn't worth it. I don't want to have arguments about this, and conversation with other people means that other people don't have to meet your expectations all the time. If all you want is to hear your own opinion, then this is in contradiction to speaking with others, because other people will always challenge you.

We are not resisting you because we hate you or want to make fun of you. We don't even want to resist you (except Tura maybe, he seems to like debates :D). We simply don't want to accept your fanon. Because that's what it is. It's a fan's imagining of Starcraft. Nothing more. It's okay of you to like it, but if you want us to like it too, then you shouldn't get angry that we don't, you should talk about good aspects of it and what you personally have done with it. Heck, one of the things that bothers me about your insistence is that you don't seem to have used it for any of your personal projects. If you have, talk about them. Just don't expect us to immediately care about fanon.

[Gradius]

I do not have time for that nerd shit either. I have barely read the 150 page document myself since the dozen page timeline already has everything I would need to start with.

Because from where I am standing, every time someone tries to imagine an alternate timeline they keep coming to the same conclusions.
So what’s even the point of it then?

[Mislagnissa]

Mislag, you're being pretty hostile over something that isn't worth it. I don't want to have arguments about this, and conversation with other people means that other people don't have to meet your expectations all the time. If all you want is to hear your own opinion, then this is in contradiction to speaking with others, because other people will always challenge you.

We are not resisting you because we hate you or want to make fun of you. We don't even want to resist you (except Tura maybe, he seems to like debates :D). We simply don't want to accept your fanon. Because that's what it is. It's a fan's imagining of Starcraft. Nothing more. It's okay of you to like it, but if you want us to like it too, then you shouldn't get angry that we don't, you should talk about good aspects of it and what you personally have done with it. Heck, one of the things that bothers me about your insistence is that you don't seem to have used it for any of your personal projects. If you have, talk about them. Just don't expect us to immediately care about fanon.
Alrighty then. If it's just one person's fanon, how would yours meaningfully differ? I keep seeing different people independently coming to the same conclusions.

I am still working on my first campaign. Life keeps getting in the way. Also for whatever reason I struggle to write stories. Don't know why.



So what’s even the point of it then?The timeline is cleaner than canon's crazy meandering continuity, introduces a variety of assimilated terrans, and introduces a variety of new plot hooks impossible in canon like the hunt for protoss relics, the war on the galactic protoss empire, the massive free-for-all brood wars, etc.

[Nissa]

I don't really have a "fanon" other than the world I created for my Aldaris fanfiction, which is sort of an alternate universe Starcraft where everything happens as it did in the game, except for the logical failures: Tassadar never attacked the Conclave, Fenix and Raynor did not help Kerrigan by kidnapping Mengsk, etc.

I only regard the manual, SC, and BW as canon, if that counts.

[ragnarok]

I don't really have a "fanon" other than the world I created for my Aldaris fanfiction, which is sort of an alternate universe Starcraft where everything happens as it did in the game, except for the logical failures: Tassadar never attacked the Conclave, Fenix and Raynor did not help Kerrigan by kidnapping Mengsk, etc.


Then why write the Another World fanfic back then in the first place if you never saw it fanon?

[Turalyon]

What grates on me is the hyper-focus on the small cast of characters from SC1, even though there are literally tens of billions of humans living in Koprulu sector alone. The licensed expansions and EU stories are completely forgotten/ignored.

I do agree with you here for the most part. It's why the only enjoyment I've ever derived from this universe storywise since Wol was first released were those short stories they released between SC2 installments. They depicted essentially "nobodies" and yet there was an "epicness" to those stories because they were isolated, focused and had appropriate stakes for their contexts.


How it is it a niche perspective?

Because only you are advocating so strongly for it?


Insurrection and Retribution have okay/good/whatever stories. Why are you not discussing them? Jack Frost was awesome!

I never played them since I considered them spin-offs/derivatives of the original at the time. I even disregarded the Enslavers campaign even though it was ostensibly included in Sc1, too.

My fandom of Sc is confined largely to the original game and it's manual. "First Installment Wins" I suppose.

[KaiserStratosTygo]

I kinda have to agree with Grad on this, recently I've been working on campaigns in my own continuity and most likely anything I could make in SC2's dogshit editor would be within my own alternate canons or story lines.

For as many excellent ideas that Enumerate has, I see why people don't use it to base things off of since its easier to take bits and pieces of it without stringently sticking to a specific "bible"

[Nissa]

Then why write the Another World fanfic back then in the first place if you never saw it fanon?

Uh...because I was writing a story. For fun. Writing fanfiction isn't always about being right. Back then, in the golden days, I didn't need a fanon because there was no SC2.

[Mislagnissa]

I kinda have to agree with Grad on this, recently I've been working on campaigns in my own continuity and most likely anything I could make in SC2's dogshit editor would be within my own alternate canons or story lines.

For as many excellent ideas that Enumerate has, I see why people don't use it to base things off of since its easier to take bits and pieces of it without stringently sticking to a specific "bible"I don't see why anyone cannot stick to the timeline at least. It is not comprehensive but it is simple to understand and easy to expand. The timeline goes out of its way to allow versatility in storytelling by removing restrictive elements and expanding the scale. The benefit of this is that many different authors can appear to set their works in the same continuity, rather than every author having a separate continuity. An expanded universe is IMO more fun to enjoy than a bunch of tiny self-contained universes.

Many existing custom campaigns could be fit into it with little to no rewriting (beyond things like name changes, such as replacing the ever popular Aiur with another Empire world) precisely because the world has become so much bigger and you do not have to write around legacy characters from the canon campaigns. The Proditor campaign for SC2 violates canon in numerous ways to tell its story, but it would be Tuesday in the Enumerate timeline. The Annihilation campaign is disconnected from canon precisely to give freedom in storytelling, but it could easily take place during the Brood Wars arc of the Enumerate timeline. The Ignos campaign is not possible in canon because it has Protoss and Nerazim living on a planet other than Aiur/Shakuras and random primal Zerg on xel'naga planets, but it could easily be set during the Great War arc or later in the Enumerate timeline. Vortex of the Void clearly violates canon by introducing a satanic cult among the Protoss that can resurrect the dead, but it is easy to fit into the Enumerate timeline due to the huge scales.

I mean, one of the details that threw me out of Enslavers and Antioch Chronicles was the ease at which random Terrans may visit Aiur. In Enslavers Schezar is just casually mentioned in a briefing to have raided Aiur, even though in the SC1 manual the Koprulu sector was on the frontier and the space between was unimaginably huge. In Antioch Chronicles the KMC presence on Aiur is only explained in supplementary materials where they relied on Zerg knowledge and FTL (it's complicated).

[ragnarok]

Uh...because I was writing a story. For fun. Writing fanfiction isn't always about being right. Back then, in the golden days, I didn't need a fanon because there was no SC2.

It was a good one, wish you'd continued

[Nissa]

Lol, that was the one story I ever experienced writer's block on. Maybe someday, Rag, maybe someday.

[ragnarok]

Lol, that was the one story I ever experienced writer's block on. Maybe someday, Rag, maybe someday.

Hopefully, because I'm still waiting, just like I know there are people still waiting for me to update mine (right now real life makes that impossible)

[Nolanstar]

I tend to never publish my stuff, perhaps I should...

[Nissa]

Go for it. It stretches your brain in ways you never realize.