Endless Speculation -- Story After Brood War

[Nissa]

Long post ahead...

Okay, so the issue with creating a sequel to a franchise piece of work is that it has to flow naturally. The audience must feel that the story progresses in a way that makes sense, allowing them to feel that despite the years that have passed, one can jump from one to the other and not feel like too much has changed.When it comes to a series like Starcraft, it's not too terribly hard to create a story that feels like the past games. Granted, it's more difficult than something like Star Fox (which somehow Nintendo has managed to screw up anyway), but so long as Blizzard got the generalities right, the specifics are simply matters of opinion.

But, as we know, they got the generalities wrong. Raynor and Kerri were not in a romance, the characters were almost entirely altered in nature and appearance, and major plot points were retconned. It's like they were trying to run the franchise into the ground, because they got things wrong that even the simplest noob fanfiction writer could have avoided.

Let's not harp on that, though. Not here, anyway.

So, because I like to systemize things, I'm going to put in my two cents and create a framework for creating a sequel to Brood War. This framework will consist of all the proper tones that the game should have, as well as the proper questions. Storytelling can be described as ways to a series of questions that is answered by the author. Different writers will address the questions in different ways, but that's less important than the questions themselves, which must be answered, in one way or another, to create a competent Starcraft sequel. In other words, this framework should be adaptable to any writer who wants to take a crack at it.

WARNING: just a heads up, this framework assumes that SC2 and its related novels do not exist. No novels are canon in this consideration, and the downloadable missions are of questionable canon, according to the writer who would give it a shot. Do your best to throw any SC2 notions out of your head. Use these questions to conceptualize your own version of SC2, assuming you want to.



Okay, so let's start with the Zerg, because they are the easiest of the three races -- in terms of questions. In terms of the actual work, they're probably the hardest because they aren't terribly well developed, in terms of usable characters.

---- Zerg ----

Okay, so when last we left off, the Zerg were more or less in Kerrigan's hands. They had just defeated the UED, a Dominion fleet, and a Protoss fleet. Kerrigan decided to give it a rest, claiming that she would later test the resolve of her remaining adversaries, some time in the future. She is currently on Char, with, presumably, the bulk of her Zerg minions.

- For what reason does Kerrigan rest? It is implied that she does so because part of her humanity is still inside of her, but is any of her reasoning based on other factors? Is she trying to get stronger, or perhaps trying to figure out what she's going to do now that she's achieved her revenge? Perhaps her forces aren't doing so hot after that last battle.
- About how large is Kerrigan's forces? How widespread are they throughout the K Sector?
- Are there any remnants of the Zerg not in her control? Who are they? How powerful are they and do they intend to confront Kerrigan for control of the Zerg?
- Are there any other sentient Zerg within Kerrigan's forces who could serve as side characters?
- How willing is Kerrigan to infest another human for the sake of companionship? Does she care about infesting the Protoss and will this ever be possible?
- Since the Zerg are still on Aiur, does Kerrigan want to keep it? Does she have some sort of purpose for this, or is she just being petty?
- How much does Kerrigan know about the Xel'Naga/the Overmind's intentions, and where did she get this information?
- How much do the people of the K Sector, other than the main characters, actually know about Kerrigan? Given that the UED never found out about her until the end of their missions, it's possible that a lot of people fought the Zerg without meeting her. Did/does she attempt to make herself known in order to prove her strength, or does she just sit back and let rumors do the work for her?
- Are there other ways in which to introduce more Zerg characters, besides infestation or hidden Zerg?
- Should Kerrigan be killed off? Should she be allowed to live into a sequel? Should/could she be deinfested? Something else?
- If Kerrigan discovers the hybrids, what would happen?





Okay, now the Terrans. They have the most questions, mainly because we know the most about them. There are lots of human factions to consider, and we have to know what the deal is with them. We also have to pick a perspective faction to go with.

---- Terrans ----

++++ What we know about Umoja and the Kel-Morian Combine: Next to zip. Moria has mining facilities and guilds, and Umoja has...something. It's also not entirely clear how much of the K Sector Mengsk took over in SC/BW (not in the actual games, at least), and if he infringed on Umojan or Morian territory when doing so. The game visited Moria once, and it was attacked by Zerg. Since most of the Zerg's in-game attacks happened to Dominion/UED held worlds, it is possible that these other factions weren't hit as hard.

- How did interstellar relations change when Mengsk took over Confederate-held worlds?
- How well did these two factions survive SC/BW?
- What was the Combine's military reaction to having its main world attacked by Zerg?
- What do these factions know about Mengsk/the Protoss/Kerrigan?
- What is their current interaction with the Terran Dominion?
- Do they know that Fenix was involved with the Zerg invasion of Moria, and is this an important plot point?
- How much power do they have to affect current events, and how would they choose to? Do they sit back and let others deal with alien trouble, flee the Sector, or fight/negotiate for themselves?


++++ What we know about the UED: The UED expeditionary force is wiped out. If there are survivors, they are few, far between, and very likely weren't involved in the last battle with Kerrigan, given that she obliterated their fleeing forces. The rest of the UED is on Earth, and has not been able to hear back from their expeditionary force (according to the end BW ending text).

- Are the UED necessary for a direct sequel, or can they wait for future games?
- If any of the EF survived, who and where are they? What kind of power do they have?
- How does Earth feel about what happened? Are they incensed and want to interact more with the K Sector, or are they scared and want to stay out of it/defend Earth?
- How much does the UED want to control/influence the K Sector humans? Would they consider alliances, trade, or subtle attempts to control their "colonies"?
- Does the UED really need to appear as a faction, or is it possible for just one UED character to work?
- Should hybrids be involved with Earth?

- What about Stukov? According to the downloadable missions, he was infested and then de-infested. Do you consider this canon, and if so, how workable is Stukov as a character within a sequel? What should be done with him? Should he be used as a major character, relegated to the background, or generally ignored?


++++ What we know about Mengsk and the Terran Dominion: Mengsk has suffered several setbacks, to put it mildly. Most of his forces were taken over by the UED during BW, who also attacked his home fortress. Then Korhal was further devastated by Mengsk's alliance with Kerrigan and subsequent re-invasion of Korhal. Mengsk was able to scrape up a fleet, and apparently was persuasive enough to convince the remnant of the UED and the Protoss to join in one final battle. Which he lost. He swore revenge, and presumably is gearing up to restore the Dominion and enable it to fight Kerrigan at some point in the future.

- Exactly how hurt is Mengsk's empire? Did the UED devastate his worlds, or primarily Korhal (as we know was hit hard in BW) while allowing the others to operate more or less normally? Are his planets able to survive economically?
- How loyal are Dominion/former Dominion planets going to be to Mengsk after all the things they and he have been through?
- Exactly how much do the inhabitants of the K Sector know about Mengsk's involvement with Kerrigan and Raynor?
- Given that Mengsk seems to have developed talks with the Protoss in getting them to join him in the final mission, what is his relationship going to be with them in the future?
- How good is Mengsk at getting Morians/Umojans to see things his way?
- What exactly is Mengsk up to? How does he plan to get revenge on Kerrigan? Can he do so in a direct sequel, or should that wait?
- What family does Mengsk have? Does he have an heir, or is he focused only on present circumstances?
- What is a way that Mengsk (or Terrans in general) might interact with hybrids/Duran/anyone who worked with Duran? Will the Terrans find out about the Xel'Naga and related matters? How? How would they react?
- Who is Mengsk's general, now that Duke is dead?
- Should Mengsk be killed off? Should he live into a sequel? Something else?


++++ What we know about Raynor: he's been through all kinds of crap. The last we saw of him, he lost his best Protoss friend and swore to kill Kerrigan. Then he disappeared.

- Where is Raynor? Did he coincidentally meet up with Zeratul, hide in a bar and drink away his problems, or something else?
- Does Raynor have specific plans to fight Kerrigan, or is he going to focus on something else in the meantime?
- Are Raynor's Raiders still together, and if so, what are they doing?
- Who are some of Raynor's current friends, both human and Protoss?
- Does Raynor really need to show up in a direct sequel, or can he wait?
- Should Raynor be killed? Should he live on? Something else?
- Will Raynor really kill Kerrigan? If so, what will he do next with his life?
- Will Raynor be likely at all to encounter hybrids?
- How interested is Raynor in participating in the politics of the Dominion or other factions?



General Terran questions:
- Who are some characters that can be created to fill out and create interesting events in the Terran missions?
- What do the humans of the K Sector want, and how involved should they be with hybrid/Xel'Naga matters?
- Are there non-faction humans? Who are they? Colonists, pirates, space gypsies...?



Okay, 'Toss time. They seem deceptively simple, but that's only because most of their ways are undefined -- we don't know what the Khala is, how much of it is from the Xel'Naga or from early Protoss tradition, Dark Templar tradition, the purposes/goals of the Xel'Naga in creating them. It's not strictly necessary that all of these (specifically the Khala and DT ways) be one hundred percent spelled out, but it is necessary to get a better grip on what these things mean for modern Protoss culture, especially since their factions are meeting in a way that hasn't been done for centuries. These aren't mere reptile Jedi, after all.

---- Protoss ----
++++ What we know about the Protoss: They have suffered basically nothing but setbacks since Aiur's destruction. They lost almost all their leadership, Shakuras has been hit by multiple invasions, and they failed to destroy Kerrigan when they thought they had the chance. The 'Toss of the light and the dark are now together again, trying to survive despite centuries of animosity. They do not appear to be ready to fight Kerrigan, or anyone else, right now.
- Artanis is still young; would he really lead the Protoss, or would they find someone else? Would they create a council? Would they instead have factional leadership, like a Judicator representing Aiur refugees?
- How would the Protoss react to humans? Are they having peaceful negotiations with any human factions? Did the UED know that the Protoss worked with their expeditionary force in the last mission?
- How is Aiur? If there are survivors on it, who are they? People who refuse to accept the DTs? Forces who will stop at nothing to maintain a Protoss foothold on the world?
- The manual states that the Protoss, at the beginning of Starcraft, held territory that was one eighth the size of the Xel'Nagan area of space. Where are these other planets, and how are they holding up in current circumstances?
- What position does Artanis hold within the Protoss hierarchy? Also, what is his national background? Is he High Templar, Dark Templar, or both? (Y'know, to answer the confusion given his inconsistent artwork)
- What are the short term goals of the Protoss? Besides plain survival?
- How much do the Protoss know about the circumstances of Raszagal's death? Did Zeratul contact Shakuras about the hybrids, or just go off to investigate before throwing another worry on top of the pile the Protoss already have?
- What happened to all those Terrans Zeratul mind-controlled in the secret mission? Is this plot important, or ignorable?
- Who were the "renegade" Protoss in the secret mission? Were they invested in the hybrid projects, or were they just people willing to sell Protoss technology for some reason? Or is the phrase "renegade Protoss" in the mission complete screen of the secret mission just there to throw us off?
- What's up with those khaydarin crystals? Are they legit good for anything? Do the Protoss know why they mattered so much to the Overmind?
- Is the temple on Shakuras useful? What about the remains of the one on Aiur? Are there temples on any other worlds, or at least other signs of Xel'Naga activity?
- If the Protoss encounter the hybrids, what would happen?
- What is Zeratul doing right now? If he sought help against the hybrids, who would he go to?
- How much do the Protoss know about Mengsk's sketchy ways, and how does this change their interactions with him?



---- The hybrids ----
++++ What we know about the hybrids: Next to zip. Duran wants them to exist, and was intrumental in "seeding" them across a number of worlds.
++++ What we don't know about the hybrids:
- how many worlds were seeded
- who Duran works for
- if the Xel'Naga intended for the hybrids to exist
- what the hybrids are
- what the hybrids want
- the nature of Duran's being
- if Duran has any allies who are truly aware of what he is doing

Some other considerations:
- Should the Xel'Naga be a faction?
- Should the hybrids be a playable faction? What would distinguish them from the Zerg and Protoss, if so? If not, can they exist as characters within another faction?
- How exactly can the hybrids be defeated? Should they be defeated, or can they become a natural part of the universe? Could they fake it for their own purposes?


The hybrids are the biggest open question of Starcraft, and in the years before WoL us fans thought this was the key question of all Starcraft. Quite frankly, it is. But we're hopefully not going to dwell on SC2. Not here, anyway. This thread isn't about that.

[Gradius]

Have you read StarCraft: Enumerate?


jk hahaha :D

[Turalyon]

^ Hah, Misla was a religious nut over that "bible".

Anyways, it wouldn't help with Nissa's framework since she wants to wants continue from BW whilst Enumerate excludes Kerrigan and pretty much most of BW.

I came up with a similar sort of framing questions to what Nissa has done here, although not to this extent, many years ago. It was fun speculating about things then.

[sandwich_bird]

Are there any other sentient Zerg within Kerrigan's forces who could serve as side characters?

Don't forget the player's hero cerebrate. Also should include the other playable characters.

Speaking of which, I don't know if this is part of your question listing but the point of the view of the story is important. Are we sticking with first person like in SC1 or are we changing that like in SC2.

[KaiserStratosTygo]

here are my "speculative!" answers to these lore questions:

Zerg:
-It seemed like all the pointless revenge and constant fighting left her hollow since at this point she doesn't really have any purpose but to kill shit, perhaps regarding Raynor she might feel abit bad, maybe even regarding Fenix, but with the UED, Dominion, Protoss and Loyalist Zerg (I refuse to call them renegades) I doubt she really gave a shit about them.
-Probably nowhere near the strength needed to actually go on the offensive against the Protoss at this point, maybe the Koprulu Terrans, definitely not the UED since It's likely they are at least as large if not larger than the old Confederacy was, but an entirely uncharted space for our main factions here.
-I imagine the Cerebrates that survived still live and hid on various planets in and around the sector because fuck that lazy SC2 retcon (they all died off because Overmind) I don't think they have the forces necessary to fight her without engaging in very non-zerg style strategies relying on deceit and playing the long game.
-Not likely, had SC1 gone the original route that the writers initially setup yes, but instead we got special snowflake Kerrigan instead of an army of infested agents with her as their leader : /
-Unlike those shitty books, I do genuinely think she'd probably steer away from infesting people too often aside from necessary strategies (like on Moria) She doesn't seem to give a damn about the original plan to assimilate the 'toss.
-Petty I am positive
-I imagine that like Zeratul she would know quite about the Overmind and since she was connected to him longer and more intimately she should know the vast majority of the Overmind's life and intent.
-Probably very little seeing as how unlike shitty hots most of her BW actions actually were against military targets, I also don't think she cares that much about being a public figure to civilians one way or the other.
-New Zerg evolving to preserve its integrity? perhaps ones that follow Kerrigan's playbook of deception to the point where they usurp power and create another hivemind to continue their original mission.
-Yes, We're gonna make the Swarm, ZERG again!
-She'd probably pull a Zeratul and send some forces to destroy them to preserve her own power.

Terrans:
-Good question
-I imagine Umoja and Moria survived just fine, we know that they both have more than one planet to their name and even when Moria was attacked it was just a raid by a very weak Kerrigan and Fenix., at this point in my opinion they should be in a posiition of strength over the Dominion that has lost every war since its inception (Not counting SoK, Dominion era) they were defeated by the UED hilariously, the Protoss, the Zerg up down and sideways, and Mengsk even lost a fleet that was loaned to him
-good question, their big corporations probably shat their pants, not because Zerg are scary but because they stole their profit making materials, they've likely been allocating more resources to military forces probably to be at the strength that they were during the guild wars.
-Obviously they were under the control of Mengsk for a time, but regarding Kerrigan and the Protoss probably as much as the Confederacy who knows.
-My idea is that these factions now have Mengsk by the balls and were likely the factions that loaned him the ships to fight the zerg
-Probably buying out whatever territory Ole' Arcty has left.
-Probably not, it depends on if the canon scenario had Fenix with an actual Protoss batallion or not imo.
-They probably are using Mengsk, Raynor and other groups to do the fighting for them while doing what corporate slime does and run out the backdoor with all the money, the Umojans probably are focused on defense.

The Should've won faction:
-No, but it'd be nice to have them return in some way
-They are probably around Raynor's Raiders size and may have shifted to becoming a more "shadowy" organization influencing the decisions of the other Terran groups sly-ly
-Seeing as how just learning about the Overmind made them terrified enough to send a fleet, I imagine if they knew what happened, they'd go total war mode.
-in my opinion they'd do the latter, a subtle influence with whatever players they've got left in the sector (if any)
-Nah, I think they need to be represented as a faction, otherwise i feel a UED character would just be similiar to the regular hicks we have in koprulu but with a cooler accent.
-Hell no, Hybrids need to be a C plot at best IMO
-I think if Stukov is used, he's a secondary character maybe has some friendly relations to Raynor and the 'Toss that saved him after a cooling off period.

The I can't win a battle to save my life faction:
-Totally and horrendously devastated, he started off as a terrorist group only months before BW when he was introduced, then he took over a dying Empire that lost most of its fighting strength, then some of his forces betrayed him and left with Raynor, he later lost a bunch of forces on Char failing to retrieve Kerri, lost a bunch of forces on Char against Tassadar, lost a bunch of forces to the Protoss on Braxis, lost the rest of them and the planet to the UED, failed to stop the UED from stealing dozens of ships, lost a massive fleet to that same UED fleet, lost multiple battles on Korhal along with its capitol, was betrayed by Kerrigan and lost a shit load again including his right hand general, and finally put together a fleet made up of loaned forces and lost that too, Mengsk should be maybe above Raynor in terms of power but not by much, whatever fringe worlds he may still "own" should be acting on their own or likely fallen under the sway of Raynor, pirates, KMC, Umoja or whatever other group is out there, Mengsk is the ultimate lame duck basically.
-Probably almost none.
-Likely very little, Raynor and Kerrigan are likely nobodies to the civilian population
-The Protoss might be willing to play ball with him as long as Kerrigan is their common enemy, but beyond that I doubt the Protoss will go out of their way to assist him.
-At this point probably not at all after being a total loser to practically everyone.
-Mengsk, if he's his smarter SC1 self works better as a non-established leader, he's probably got a couple of things up his sleeve that are in service to his own revenge continuing the cycle of revenge until either he or Kerrigan (or both) are dead and yes, Mengsk is so weak right now he should be a minor player doing spooky shit behind the scenes while other factions do the fighting.
-It seemed like he wanted a dynasty, so I imagine he still had a child of some sort maybe not valerian but someone similiar, he's probably teaching them not to make his idiotic mistakes (at least I hope he would)
-This is the one thing I think SC2 did okay, the terrans wouldn't know what they're getting into but would go for it anyway due to desperation to end the filthy xenos.
-Good question, likely some SoK loyalist from the "good ole' days"
-No, Hots failed in that regard, if he dies off it needs to be near the end of the sequel or in a third installment, probably due to his own stupidity.

Raynor's role:
̶-̶I̶N̶ ̶H̶E̶L̶L̶ ̶ (oh Sc1 raynor.. uh..) this Raynor is probably on some fringe world trying to keep his group active but still stewing after the crazy events of SC1 and BW, I'm not opposed to him having a mild drinking problem either.
-Raynor never has a plan, he flies by the seat of his pants, I imagine he figures he'll stumble into killing Kerrigan at some point (a naive hope but one I can see Jimmy having)
-I imagine they are especially since they took the least damage out of the factions that actually contributed to the plot.
-Good question, probably fringe worlders former confederates maybe even some UED remnants, I imagine that many protoss both Khalai and ark are fond of the guy for his actions on Aiur.
-Yes, but he doesn't need to be the focus, he like Mengsk can be a minor player trying to figure his shit out, maybe being an ally or opponent in a couple of missions due to intersecting goals.
-No, he should live on, that's his character is to be the guy that has the universe shit all over him, yet he outlives his contemporaries anyway.
-Doubtful but he'll try dammit! I imagine he'll be in the same position that Kerri was at the end of BW where he's hollow inside if that should happen and get drunk for real at Joeyray's.
-Probably not, it would seem forced, though I suppose if he's on fringe world planets he could theoretically encounter some weird shit, maybe he meets Zeratul again during one of his raids on Hybrids.
-Probably none whatsoever, I don't see him as a big picture guy.

General Terrans:
-Some oppurtunists (likely morians or pirates), Umojan protectionists that might go off the deep in to protect their nation, Confederate loyalists that will use Mengsk's hilarious defeats to return, more Raynor type people due to the power vaccuum
-The aliens to get bent.
-I imagine based on the original idea of this series, tons and tons of pirates, independent militias, "gypsies" and any other non-governmental small scale factions you can think of, just trying to make it in this hellish sector)

Protoss, the best race, no i'm not racist towards Zerg and Terrans I swear:
-I imagine Artanis would be overruled by older wiser characters, especially after his constant defeats, I do think a council of some kind would be made to represent the DTs, and the Khalai tribes so they can focus less on past bullshit and more on what to do, Narratively I would give the Protoss an actual non-pyyrhic victory for once but that's just me.
-They are probably a lot more cordial with the humans due to the common foe of Kerrigan, the desperate situation and the likes of Raynor, Mengsk and Dugalle who managed to work with them
-Probably a shit show, I imagine the survivors are like the survivors in Terminator (the good movies) few and far inbetween, I imagine some would still have their bigotry towards the DTs, I imagine they've found new and decisive ways to fight the Zerg that may come into play as a plot point.
-Probably everywhere outside Koprulu and are likely in civil turmoil with tribes probably at eachother's throats, this is where I think the Protoss could achieve a decisive victory by finding and uniting these colonies to become a real fighting force against the Zerg.
-Artanis is still high ranked but like I said earlier would likely be overruled by someone older and with less public defeats on their hands, Artanis I believe is from the Akilae (teal) tribe and should be a khalai.
-Probably retaking Aiur, rebuilding their fleets, reuniting their colonies and keeping their tribes together.
-I imagine by his nature, Zeratul is focused on his mission and likely hasn't said a thing regarding the death of Raszagal
-Gameplay, though that'd be a cool plot point if done well.
-Good question, maybe they were anti-human anti-DT zealots that were promised some vengeance against the people they hate in exchange for their assistance.
-My head canon is that the crystals are some kind of psionic "lense" or amplifier that may have been the Overmind's way to hijack the Khala-link and use it for his own ends.
-it's a panic button, I imagine that they are plenty more all over the galaxy and assuredly one on Aiur of that design, whether it works or not though is a better question.
-Dead Hybrids 'nuff said.
-Still fighting Hybrids with his loyalists i'm pretty sure that was implied at the end of BW.
-Probably a lot, I imagine Raynor/Kerrigan told them about what he was like when they were allied with either of them but are still willing to work with him for a common goal if need be.

Bad Idea, The Faction:
-Many many worlds : )
-I imagine he is not working for anyone alive (no amon bullshit either) I think he is working for the Xel'Naga in spirit by continuing their experiments on their behalf, perhaps there are other "Durans" but that's about it I feel.
-doubtful it seemed like the Overmind's way was slightly closer to what they wanted.
- ̶T̶r̶a̶s̶h̶ I mean who knows.
-Good question, I actually don't know
-Probably a Xel'Naga failsafe? or maybe another one of their experiments.
-Probably, it seems unlikely to me that he's the only one doing this considering what he said about the "many worlds" thing. and also I hate the "last of his kind" trop anyway.

Stuff:
-NO.
-Nah, they should be like the ̶X̶e̶l̶ Naga where if they are featured more prominently they have a minor tech tree and a handful of units, they should be mish mosh of design aesthetics but graphical and logical, say they are numerous psionic beings all connected but not under a single directive with just enough personality of each to be creative to an extent, their units would mix advanced tech with organic construction, my idea is that they'd look similiar to the Scrin in C&C3 a combination of the sinister Zerg design yet elegant shapes of the Protoss wrapped into one bizarre theme.
-Grit, strategy and tactics, no faction should be unbeatable, not even the UED or the Zerg, every faction should have its weakness but not necessarily in that "keystone" army sense, perhaps the Hybrids have the vices that their component parts have, Protoss Arrogance and Zerg's weakness to space and too much individuality if a link is cut?

[Nissa]

Don't forget the player's hero cerebrate. Also should include the other playable characters.

Speaking of which, I don't know if this is part of your question listing but the point of the view of the story is important. Are we sticking with first person like in SC1 or are we changing that like in SC2.

Oh yeah, that would have been a good question, along with "What kind of new units should be included, if any?"

I was actually thinking more of in-world rather than out-world concerns, but that's important too. Um, I think I personally would prefer more of a first person perspective. It's more fun that way, especially if these characters are never clarified.

[Nissa]

Double post because I wanna.

Bear in mind that I didn't write this framework because I wanted people to answer it a specific way (although some questions will have more logical answers than others), but rather come up with answers to these questions that would enable us to have a proper sequel.


here are my "speculative!" answers to these lore questions:

Zerg:
-It seemed like all the pointless revenge and constant fighting left her hollow since at this point she doesn't really have any purpose but to kill shit, perhaps regarding Raynor she might feel abit bad, maybe even regarding Fenix, but with the UED, Dominion, Protoss and Loyalist Zerg (I refuse to call them renegades) I doubt she really gave a shit about them.

While your perspective is perfectly valid, the fact of the matter is that she really should be doing something. Unless you can come up with other Zerg characters to fill the void.


-Probably nowhere near the strength needed to actually go on the offensive against the Protoss at this point, maybe the Koprulu Terrans, definitely not the UED since It's likely they are at least as large if not larger than the old Confederacy was, but an entirely uncharted space for our main factions here.
-I imagine the Cerebrates that survived still live and hid on various planets in and around the sector because fuck that lazy SC2 retcon (they all died off because Overmind) I don't think they have the forces necessary to fight her without engaging in very non-zerg style strategies relying on deceit and playing the long game.

Technically speaking, we don't know that all of the cerebrates are dead, because that was never confirmed.


-Not likely, had SC1 gone the original route that the writers initially setup yes, but instead we got special snowflake Kerrigan instead of an army of infested agents with her as their leader : /

Part of the purpose of this framework is to get the potential writers out there thinking of a solution to this dilemma. :D


-Unlike those shitty books, I do genuinely think she'd probably steer away from infesting people too often aside from necessary strategies (like on Moria) She doesn't seem to give a damn about the original plan to assimilate the 'toss.
-Petty I am positive
-I imagine that like Zeratul she would know quite about the Overmind and since she was connected to him longer and more intimately she should know the vast majority of the Overmind's life and intent.

Okay, so how would this information Kerrigan knows be conveyed through the plot, and how much does she care about fulfilling the Overmind's plans? Will anything the Overmind did benefit her now?


-Probably very little seeing as how unlike shitty hots most of her BW actions actually were against military targets, I also don't think she cares that much about being a public figure to civilians one way or the other.
-New Zerg evolving to preserve its integrity? perhaps ones that follow Kerrigan's playbook of deception to the point where they usurp power and create another hivemind to continue their original mission.
-Yes, We're gonna make the Swarm, ZERG again!
-She'd probably pull a Zeratul and send some forces to destroy them to preserve her own power.

Terrans:
-Good question
-I imagine Umoja and Moria survived just fine, we know that they both have more than one planet to their name and even when Moria was attacked it was just a raid by a very weak Kerrigan and Fenix., at this point in my opinion they should be in a posiition of strength over the Dominion that has lost every war since its inception (Not counting SoK, Dominion era) they were defeated by the UED hilariously, the Protoss, the Zerg up down and sideways, and Mengsk even lost a fleet that was loaned to him
-good question, their big corporations probably shat their pants, not because Zerg are scary but because they stole their profit making materials, they've likely been allocating more resources to military forces probably to be at the strength that they were during the guild wars.
-Obviously they were under the control of Mengsk for a time, but regarding Kerrigan and the Protoss probably as much as the Confederacy who knows.
-My idea is that these factions now have Mengsk by the balls and were likely the factions that loaned him the ships to fight the zerg
-Probably buying out whatever territory Ole' Arcty has left.
-Probably not, it depends on if the canon scenario had Fenix with an actual Protoss batallion or not imo.
-They probably are using Mengsk, Raynor and other groups to do the fighting for them while doing what corporate slime does and run out the backdoor with all the money, the Umojans probably are focused on defense.

The Should've won faction:
-No, but it'd be nice to have them return in some way
-They are probably around Raynor's Raiders size and may have shifted to becoming a more "shadowy" organization influencing the decisions of the other Terran groups sly-ly
-Seeing as how just learning about the Overmind made them terrified enough to send a fleet, I imagine if they knew what happened, they'd go total war mode.
-in my opinion they'd do the latter, a subtle influence with whatever players they've got left in the sector (if any)
-Nah, I think they need to be represented as a faction, otherwise i feel a UED character would just be similiar to the regular hicks we have in koprulu but with a cooler accent.
-Hell no, Hybrids need to be a C plot at best IMO
-I think if Stukov is used, he's a secondary character maybe has some friendly relations to Raynor and the 'Toss that saved him after a cooling off period.

Any particular reason why you feel that the UED should have won? I personally am against that, mainly because I like the K Sector having its own issues, and Earth has nothing to do with it. Convince me that the UED is interesting enough to make up for this.


The I can't win a battle to save my life faction:
-Totally and horrendously devastated, he started off as a terrorist group only months before BW when he was introduced, then he took over a dying Empire that lost most of its fighting strength, then some of his forces betrayed him and left with Raynor, he later lost a bunch of forces on Char failing to retrieve Kerri, lost a bunch of forces on Char against Tassadar, lost a bunch of forces to the Protoss on Braxis, lost the rest of them and the planet to the UED, failed to stop the UED from stealing dozens of ships, lost a massive fleet to that same UED fleet, lost multiple battles on Korhal along with its capitol, was betrayed by Kerrigan and lost a shit load again including his right hand general, and finally put together a fleet made up of loaned forces and lost that too, Mengsk should be maybe above Raynor in terms of power but not by much, whatever fringe worlds he may still "own" should be acting on their own or likely fallen under the sway of Raynor, pirates, KMC, Umoja or whatever other group is out there, Mengsk is the ultimate lame duck basically.
-Probably almost none.
-Likely very little, Raynor and Kerrigan are likely nobodies to the civilian population
-The Protoss might be willing to play ball with him as long as Kerrigan is their common enemy, but beyond that I doubt the Protoss will go out of their way to assist him.
-At this point probably not at all after being a total loser to practically everyone.
-Mengsk, if he's his smarter SC1 self works better as a non-established leader, he's probably got a couple of things up his sleeve that are in service to his own revenge continuing the cycle of revenge until either he or Kerrigan (or both) are dead and yes, Mengsk is so weak right now he should be a minor player doing spooky shit behind the scenes while other factions do the fighting.
-It seemed like he wanted a dynasty, so I imagine he still had a child of some sort maybe not valerian but someone similiar, he's probably teaching them not to make his idiotic mistakes (at least I hope he would)
-This is the one thing I think SC2 did okay, the terrans wouldn't know what they're getting into but would go for it anyway due to desperation to end the filthy xenos.
-Good question, likely some SoK loyalist from the "good ole' days"
-No, Hots failed in that regard, if he dies off it needs to be near the end of the sequel or in a third installment, probably due to his own stupidity.

Raynor's role:
̶-̶I̶N̶ ̶H̶E̶L̶L̶ ̶ (oh Sc1 raynor.. uh..)

Hahahahaahaa!


this Raynor is probably on some fringe world trying to keep his group active but still stewing after the crazy events of SC1 and BW, I'm not opposed to him having a mild drinking problem either.
-Raynor never has a plan, he flies by the seat of his pants, I imagine he figures he'll stumble into killing Kerrigan at some point (a naive hope but one I can see Jimmy having)
-I imagine they are especially since they took the least damage out of the factions that actually contributed to the plot.
-Good question, probably fringe worlders former confederates maybe even some UED remnants, I imagine that many protoss both Khalai and ark are fond of the guy for his actions on Aiur.
-Yes, but he doesn't need to be the focus, he like Mengsk can be a minor player trying to figure his shit out, maybe being an ally or opponent in a couple of missions due to intersecting goals.
-No, he should live on, that's his character is to be the guy that has the universe shit all over him, yet he outlives his contemporaries anyway.
-Doubtful but he'll try dammit! I imagine he'll be in the same position that Kerri was at the end of BW where he's hollow inside if that should happen and get drunk for real at Joeyray's.
-Probably not, it would seem forced, though I suppose if he's on fringe world planets he could theoretically encounter some weird shit, maybe he meets Zeratul again during one of his raids on Hybrids.
-Probably none whatsoever, I don't see him as a big picture guy.

I dunno, I kinda figured that he would see the bigger picture now, particularly since he's been manipulated by both Mengsk and Kerrigan at this point.


General Terrans:
-Some oppurtunists (likely morians or pirates), Umojan protectionists that might go off the deep in to protect their nation, Confederate loyalists that will use Mengsk's hilarious defeats to return, more Raynor type people due to the power vaccuum
-The aliens to get bent.
-I imagine based on the original idea of this series, tons and tons of pirates, independent militias, "gypsies" and any other non-governmental small scale factions you can think of, just trying to make it in this hellish sector)

I love your last point. That would be much more fun -- maybe Mengsk relying on people like that instead of being a big power broker like he's used to.


Protoss, the best race, no i'm not racist towards Zerg and Terrans I swear:

*notices* :D


-I imagine Artanis would be overruled by older wiser characters, especially after his constant defeats, I do think a council of some kind would be made to represent the DTs, and the Khalai tribes so they can focus less on past bullshit and more on what to do, Narratively I would give the Protoss an actual non-pyyrhic victory for once but that's just me.
-They are probably a lot more cordial with the humans due to the common foe of Kerrigan, the desperate situation and the likes of Raynor, Mengsk and Dugalle who managed to work with them
-Probably a shit show, I imagine the survivors are like the survivors in Terminator (the good movies) few and far inbetween, I imagine some would still have their bigotry towards the DTs, I imagine they've found new and decisive ways to fight the Zerg that may come into play as a plot point.
-Probably everywhere outside Koprulu and are likely in civil turmoil with tribes probably at eachother's throats, this is where I think the Protoss could achieve a decisive victory by finding and uniting these colonies to become a real fighting force against the Zerg.
-Artanis is still high ranked but like I said earlier would likely be overruled by someone older and with less public defeats on their hands, Artanis I believe is from the Akilae (teal) tribe and should be a khalai.

How would you deal with the fact that Artanis is shown without nerve cords in BW?


-Probably retaking Aiur, rebuilding their fleets, reuniting their colonies and keeping their tribes together.
-I imagine by his nature, Zeratul is focused on his mission and likely hasn't said a thing regarding the death of Raszagal

Really? You don't think Zer would get in trouble for not saying anything?


-Gameplay, though that'd be a cool plot point if done well.
-Good question, maybe they were anti-human anti-DT zealots that were promised some vengeance against the people they hate in exchange for their assistance.
-My head canon is that the crystals are some kind of psionic "lense" or amplifier that may have been the Overmind's way to hijack the Khala-link and use it for his own ends.
-it's a panic button, I imagine that they are plenty more all over the galaxy and assuredly one on Aiur of that design, whether it works or not though is a better question.
-Dead Hybrids 'nuff said.
-Still fighting Hybrids with his loyalists i'm pretty sure that was implied at the end of BW.
-Probably a lot, I imagine Raynor/Kerrigan told them about what he was like when they were allied with either of them but are still willing to work with him for a common goal if need be.

Bad Idea, The Faction:
-Many many worlds : )
-I imagine he is not working for anyone alive (no amon bullshit either) I think he is working for the Xel'Naga in spirit by continuing their experiments on their behalf, perhaps there are other "Durans" but that's about it I feel.
-doubtful it seemed like the Overmind's way was slightly closer to what they wanted.
- ̶T̶r̶a̶s̶h̶ I mean who knows.
-Good question, I actually don't know
-Probably a Xel'Naga failsafe? or maybe another one of their experiments.
-Probably, it seems unlikely to me that he's the only one doing this considering what he said about the "many worlds" thing. and also I hate the "last of his kind" trop anyway.

Stuff:
-NO.
-Nah, they should be like the ̶X̶e̶l̶ Naga where if they are featured more prominently they have a minor tech tree and a handful of units, they should be mish mosh of design aesthetics but graphical and logical, say they are numerous psionic beings all connected but not under a single directive with just enough personality of each to be creative to an extent, their units would mix advanced tech with organic construction, my idea is that they'd look similiar to the Scrin in C&C3 a combination of the sinister Zerg design yet elegant shapes of the Protoss wrapped into one bizarre theme.
-Grit, strategy and tactics, no faction should be unbeatable, not even the UED or the Zerg, every faction should have its weakness but not necessarily in that "keystone" army sense, perhaps the Hybrids have the vices that their component parts have, Protoss Arrogance and Zerg's weakness to space and too much individuality if a link is cut?

I like your gameplay ideas, but BW brought up a lot of questions about the hybrids that need to be answered, even if they do get answered in later games rather than immediately.

Quite frankly, BW ended as the second act. What should have happened is that they came out with a second expansion set, solved all of the immediate problems (Protoss survival situation, Mengsk's revenge plot, Kerrigan's ultimate fate) while leaving long term problems for a proper SC2 (Protoss factional issues, hybrids, destruction of the Zerg). I would have an expansion set more or less like BW: same gameplay, a couple new units for each race, and a fun story.

[Turalyon]

What should have happened is that they came out with a second expansion set, solved all of the immediate problems (Protoss survival situation, Mengsk's revenge plot, Kerrigan's ultimate fate) while leaving long term problems for a proper SC2 (Protoss factional issues, hybrids, destruction of the Zerg)

I think the more immediate problem to solve in order to continue on from the end of BW is to justify how the other races can ever stand up to the Zerg in an in-universe/Watsonian way without it also being a bleedingly obvious out-universe/Doylist one. It ranks above all other problems because the Protoss and Terrans continued survival, let alone progress in rebuilding, is dependent on whether Kerrigan would ever allow them to develop enough to ever be a threat to her. She's given them a reprieve, but only as part of a sick game to "test" them because she pronounces "they'll all be mine (hers) in the end" and "none shall ever dispute my (her) rule again".

On a Watsonian level and in terms of the story, the Zerg are OP in BW and especially so by its end. If we're try to keep that aspect of the Zerg being untouchable (as they seem to be), then there has to be an even greater force that curbs the power of the Zerg so that the other races can be on even keel with the Zerg again. In this context, some "greater power than the Zerg" will need to be introduced more quickly to solve that problem. Since there's some establishment of this "greater power" being Hybrids, this is the natural choice.

Another way is to re-contextualise things by having the Zerg/Kerrigan's OPness being a temporary thing, whilst still retaining what came before. Yeah, it'd still reek a bit of artifice but having Kerrigan's control over the Zerg wane due to her not being the Overmind or as special as everyone (including the writers it seems) thinks she is. There is room for this justification on an in-universe/Watsonian level because, on paper, Kerrigan really isn't that special in Sc1 despite all the hype that's thrown at her by the Overmind. She failed to stop the DT and, to the contrary of what we and the Overmind believed, wasn't really the "determinant" that would ensure total victory over the Protoss because the Zerg actually lost in Sc1 even despite having their determinant (it can be potentially argued that the Zerg probably lost because of their pursuit of this "determinant" - but that's an argument for another time...).

It might smack a little of being a bit too coincidental that Kerrigan's weakening also happens to coincide with the other races gaining back their strength but it has quite a few benefits. First, it does away for the need to introduce an element of power escalation where things just have to get bigger and more epic - which is an issue the Hybrids bring and what misfires most terribly in Sc2. It doesn't mean we can't or should not introduce Hybrids in the sequel though, it just potentially allows them to be used more creatively rather than a mechanical prop for plotting purposes. Second, it potentially introduces some variability/developmental change into the Zerg that acknowledges what they've gone through yet without resorting to retcon (eg: having Kerrigan weaken opens up the Zerg to start evolving on its own). And third, it keeps the focus on the three core races that Sc is really all about.

[KaiserStratosTygo]

Nissa:


"While your perspective is perfectly valid, the fact of the matter is that she really should be doing something. Unless you can come up with other Zerg characters to fill the void.'


I could easily, we don't need Kerrigan to be the be all and end all of a race that she's barely even a part of.


"Technically speaking, we don't know that all of the cerebrates are dead, because that was never confirmed."

That's my point, the SC2 cerebrate retcon was an SC2 retcon, thus we can throw that in the garbage and allow for as many cerebrates as narratively (and logically) necessary to exist under the cloak of darkness.


"Okay, so how would this information Kerrigan knows be conveyed through the plot, and how much does she care about fulfilling the Overmind's plans? Will anything the Overmind did benefit her now?"

Regarding the Infested, I imagine that would depend on if she's part of the focus of another Zerg campaign (for a short amount of time of course, you know me at this point) If in a Zerg campaign where she captures or has her swarm create more Cerebrates, perhaps they comunicate with her during some conflict and question why she hasn't replaced them with infested like her, a competent writer wouldn't have Kerrigan spill all the beans on why all at once, but they would have her say just enough about how she doesn't actually like the idea, maybe using the "I don't want them to betray me" excuse or something.

Also its pretty clear she couldn't give less of a toss about her "Father's" plan, it could potentially benefit her but it could also backfire with the perfected swarm perhaps no longer capable of being ruled by a single entity and may (or not) have a similiar link like the Protoss, to avoid a single imbecile going out and screwing things up for the swarm. As we know the Zerg are supposed to be an allegory to Communism and other collectivized ideologies, to have 1 person or even a handful in charge seems a bit contradictory and perhaps ending that was part of the Overmind's plan all along.


"Any particular reason why you feel that the UED should have won? I personally am against that, mainly because I like the K Sector having its own issues, and Earth has nothing to do with it. Convince me that the UED is interesting enough to make up for this."

The UED with a paltry fleet mostly made up of local resoruces was able to take over most of the koprulu sector in a couple of months, now its fair enough to argue that the locals broke their teeth on each other, but that's part of the reason why I think the UED would win anyway, no amount of plot armor should've allowed Kerrigan's merry band of renegades to beat them in the way they did in my opinion, especially with the near entirety of both the Terrans and the Zerg under their thumb and most of the Protoss not giving shit and staying out after Episode IV.

I think its of more of a personal taste thing regarding whether or not we think the UED SHOULD be involved, I 100% understand why you don't like them as much, but I quite like the idea that NONE of the three races are inherently weak and any one of them (not just the Zerg for the 28447th time) can be the main antagonists. I also enjoy the trope of a bunch of factions fighting eachother when a vastly smarter/more powerful faction changes the dynamic and forces them not necessarily to work together but to decide how to proceed, which could include that, or could include sitting back an letting the "big bad" to fight their enemies for them or alternatively pretending to join forces with the main antagonists only to betray them later.

Space politics basically.


"I dunno, I kinda figured that he would see the bigger picture now, particularly since he's been manipulated by both Mengsk and Kerrigan at this point."

I mean, i don't think he can't, I just don't see him as actually leading to some sort of greater end, he doesn't seem like a political figure to me, and seems more like "the muscle" even if he was part of a government I feel like he'd be maybe a less douchey General duke at the very highest i terms of position.

That being said, if someone else could write Jimmy boi as a politician or big picture military strategist i'd be excited to see it, i'm not opposed to the concept.


"I love your last point. That would be much more fun -- maybe Mengsk relying on people like that instead of being a big power broker like he's used to."

Yeah, I always felt like he was a deal maker even in BW.


"*notices* "

shhh.......


"How would you deal with the fact that Artanis is shown without nerve cords in BW?"

I'd either just retcon that (as lame as that would be) or have him lose his cords in a battle against the Zerg during "Eye of the Storm" even if we don't use the "he's the executor from vanilla" retcon, he could and should still be a part of that battle, maybe he duels a bunch Hydralisks or something silly like that and nearly lost his life like Fenix but managed to lern from his buddy's mistakes, perhaps this would narratively help the Protoss realize "our two groups are not so different after all bla bla bla"



"Really? You don't think Zer would get in trouble for not saying anything?"

I think the Dark Templar are more focused inward and less on one rogue DT at this time in the saga having al these Khalai on their hub world, many of their meeting places and cities destroyed and having to figure out who'll lead them believing their matriarch is likely dead (unless Zeratul magically told them about what really happened, which I've already discussed why he shouldn't) they'd be too focused on Politics to worry about Zeratul, now I understand that some writers MIGHT use Zeratul's actios as an excuse to subtly revive the "hunt for Tassadar" plot but I feel that aside from Ulrezaj and a few extremists the majority of the DTs are more forgiving than the conclave and less focused on "insubordination" then they were.

Now if he was to return to Shakuras at some point in the story, maybe they'd punish him but less because of Razzy's death and more because of his trust and working relationship with Kerrigan.


"I like your gameplay ideas, but BW brought up a lot of questions about the hybrids that need to be answered, even if they do get answered in later games rather than immediately."

i agree, I just think they should remain a subplot or secondary B plot at best instead of the main story.


"Quite frankly, BW ended as the second act. What should have happened is that they came out with a second expansion set, solved all of the immediate problems (Protoss survival situation, Mengsk's revenge plot, Kerrigan's ultimate fate) while leaving long term problems for a proper SC2 (Protoss factional issues, hybrids, destruction of the Zerg). I would have an expansion set more or less like BW: same gameplay, a couple new units for each race, and a fun story."

Agreed.

Tura:


" but having Kerrigan's control over the Zerg wane due to her not being the Overmind or as special as everyone (including the writers it seems) thinks she is. "

I've done this in my campaigns, I personally feel that as "artificial" as it may be it seems too logical not to go through with, Kerrigan is a human assimilated into the Zerg, no amount of special snowflake bad life nonsense should make her or any filthy hairless ape powerful enough to control the entirety of the Swarm for very long.


"it keeps the focus on the three core races that Sc is really all about."

And this is really what's most important.

[Nissa]

Nissa:

I could easily, we don't need Kerrigan to be the be all and end all of a race that she's barely even a part of.

Then do it! I wanna see what you could come up with.



That's my point, the SC2 cerebrate retcon was an SC2 retcon, thus we can throw that in the garbage and allow for as many cerebrates as narratively (and logically) necessary to exist under the cloak of darkness.

And that's my point. Would you have other cerebrates? If so, what's their deal?




Regarding the Infested, I imagine that would depend on if she's part of the focus of another Zerg campaign (for a short amount of time of course, you know me at this point) If in a Zerg campaign where she captures or has her swarm create more Cerebrates, perhaps they comunicate with her during some conflict and question why she hasn't replaced them with infested like her, a competent writer wouldn't have Kerrigan spill all the beans on why all at once, but they would have her say just enough about how she doesn't actually like the idea, maybe using the "I don't want them to betray me" excuse or something.

Also its pretty clear she couldn't give less of a toss about her "Father's" plan, it could potentially benefit her but it could also backfire with the perfected swarm perhaps no longer capable of being ruled by a single entity and may (or not) have a similiar link like the Protoss, to avoid a single imbecile going out and screwing things up for the swarm. As we know the Zerg are supposed to be an allegory to Communism and other collectivized ideologies, to have 1 person or even a handful in charge seems a bit contradictory and perhaps ending that was part of the Overmind's plan all along.

I don't agree that the Zerg are a communist parable. Sure, it's a possible allusion, but it's hardly a proper metaphor, especially given that the swarm has no economy and communism being economically based. I've always seen the Zerg in more generic terms, like they're a metaphor for a group who all agrees with one another -- purity of essence more or less meaning purity of ideology, and thus they're all united against whatever stops them.

But what do you think the Overmind's plan really was? Was it to conquer the Protoss and make them infestible, thus creating his own version of the hybrids?




The UED with a paltry fleet mostly made up of local resoruces was able to take over most of the koprulu sector in a couple of months, now its fair enough to argue that the locals broke their teeth on each other, but that's part of the reason why I think the UED would win anyway, no amount of plot armor should've allowed Kerrigan's merry band of renegades to beat them in the way they did in my opinion, especially with the near entirety of both the Terrans and the Zerg under their thumb and most of the Protoss not giving shit and staying out after Episode IV.

I object to the underlined portion of your quotation. There is no evidence that they took over most of the K Sector, especially given that a large portion of it belongs to the Protoss and the Zerg. There is no evidence that they conquered the Umojans or the Morians. Actually, now that I'm thinking about it, there's no evidence that their force was comprised mostly of locals. They used locals, sure, but from the game it's pretty clear that they generally only took over Mengsk's Dominion.

That, and them being able to take over the K Sector with just a "paltry fleet" is super OP.


I think its of more of a personal taste thing regarding whether or not we think the UED SHOULD be involved, I 100% understand why you don't like them as much, but I quite like the idea that NONE of the three races are inherently weak and any one of them (not just the Zerg for the 28447th time) can be the main antagonists. I also enjoy the trope of a bunch of factions fighting eachother when a vastly smarter/more powerful faction changes the dynamic and forces them not necessarily to work together but to decide how to proceed, which could include that, or could include sitting back an letting the "big bad" to fight their enemies for them or alternatively pretending to join forces with the main antagonists only to betray them later.

Space politics basically.

That's fine, I just feel that that particular void can be filled perfectly well by local human groups/hybrids/Xel'Naga/Protoss factions. Let the players in the game have the day, not just a "oh no, Earth is in danger!" potential plotline.




I mean, i don't think he can't, I just don't see him as actually leading to some sort of greater end, he doesn't seem like a political figure to me, and seems more like "the muscle" even if he was part of a government I feel like he'd be maybe a less douchey General duke at the very highest i terms of position.

That being said, if someone else could write Jimmy boi as a politician or big picture military strategist i'd be excited to see it, i'm not opposed to the concept.

Lol, I don't see him as political either. Actually, the highest I see him going is like a local sheriff on some outworld planet, worrying only about the problems happening in his home city. If he's involved in stopping the hybrids somehow, then it's going to be because he's a small-scale person who is too simple to bother with all the "idealist" bullcrap that people like Duran bandy about. Sort of like a smarter version of Samwise from Lord of the Rings -- a person whose pragmatism beats out overly fancy, arrogant politics.


I'd either just retcon that (as lame as that would be) or have him lose his cords in a battle against the Zerg during "Eye of the Storm" even if we don't use the "he's the executor from vanilla" retcon, he could and should still be a part of that battle, maybe he duels a bunch Hydralisks or something silly like that and nearly lost his life like Fenix but managed to lern from his buddy's mistakes, perhaps this would narratively help the Protoss realize "our two groups are not so different after all bla bla bla"

Yeah, that's how I see things. It's a lovely source of delicious drama.



I think the Dark Templar are more focused inward and less on one rogue DT at this time in the saga having al these Khalai on their hub world, many of their meeting places and cities destroyed and having to figure out who'll lead them believing their matriarch is likely dead (unless Zeratul magically told them about what really happened, which I've already discussed why he shouldn't) they'd be too focused on Politics to worry about Zeratul, now I understand that some writers MIGHT use Zeratul's actios as an excuse to subtly revive the "hunt for Tassadar" plot but I feel that aside from Ulrezaj and a few extremists the majority of the DTs are more forgiving than the conclave and less focused on "insubordination" then they were.

Now if he was to return to Shakuras at some point in the story, maybe they'd punish him but less because of Razzy's death and more because of his trust and working relationship with Kerrigan.

Ahem, sir, I do believe saying that SC2 does not count. Also, I don't think it's a matter of official punishment, but interpersonal drama. As much as Zeratul's actions are understandable, they also might make people uncomfortable. Just because the player is understanding doesn't mean all the characters will. You know how people are. They're be people who will either condemn Zeratul for not saying what happened (in your version; in my version he would at least report what went on), saying that he should have been faster in getting away from the Zerg, or perhaps that he was a complete idiot for going along with what Kerrigan wanted and thus getting Raszagal killed before they had a chance to fix her. You will perhaps protest that none of these reaction are logical, but I can only reply that it is the nature of people to be illogical. Besides, even if they intellectually understood that Zeratul was as correct as he could be, emotionally they might feel really weird about it.




i agree, I just think they should remain a subplot or secondary B plot at best instead of the main story.

I don't know that I agree with that. I mean, if the game immediately after BW had not much to do with hybrids, that's cool, but one game in the Starcraft series should have been more or less wholly about them. The hybrids were inserted into the plot as a major game changer, to make everything more exciting and dangerous. If they remain a B story, well, that's one of the reasons why SC2 was so lame, because there the hyped-up hybrids were more or less meaningless. It was Blizzard sweeping them under the rug.

To me it would have been great for the hybrids to be a major player, and then a cerebrate could capture and study one, using them to find out how to infest Protoss. This would present a conflict, as infested Protoss would perhaps have a better chance of destroying the hybrids, but they're just as much of an abomination.

I understand your reluctance to really have the hybrids do something, but their existence is something that needs to be dealt with, sooner or later. It should of course be the case that Starcraft should continue to exist post-hybrids, and that possibly the games could go on indefinitely before the hybrids come into the picture, so that Blizzard has time to figure out a way to make the hybrids awesome instead of a plot hurdle.

[Gradius]

They conquered Moria and Umoja. Those were part of the Dominion after SC. Even Fenix comments on it.

[Nissa]

Quotation?

[Turalyon]

I personally feel that as "artificial" as it may be it seems too logical not to go through with, Kerrigan is a human assimilated into the Zerg, no amount of special snowflake bad life nonsense should make her or any filthy hairless ape powerful enough to control the entirety of the Swarm for very long.

I'm actually in agreement with you but part of the problem is that BW sets up the precedent that Kerrigan is pretty much untouchable. Sure, it was contrived even then to have it that way but then to just reverse it in a similar vein sort of undermines the whole thing, breaks immersion and makes the whole universe seem more fake. The reason why Sc2 fails as a sequel is not because people don't subjectively like the changes that happen (defenders of the story will often mistakenly generalise the critics' positions as this), it's because the changes are wholly and obviously Doylist in nature.

From the end of Sc1 leading to another alternate take on BW, it'd be more reasonable and sound on a Watsonian level to have Kerrigan make a play for ultimate control and eventually fail because although she is indeed powerful she is also, objectively, a failure. She is outfoxed by the Protoss and fails to be the "determinant" that the Overmind wanted her to be. There's a precedent in Sc1 that Kerrigan is not what she's cracked up to be.

So while I tended to like the idea of Kerrigan "weakening" after the end of BW because she's really not all that great, it sort of doesn't gel with what BW has established. I think an even better option is for the Zerg themselves to outgrow Kerrigan, without weakening her so to speak. This will give agency/identity back to the Zerg Swarm as a race and allow them to develop instead of forever being thought of as "mindless creatures that need a strong leader in order to operate/be relevant". The Zerg as a race are supposed to be about adaptation to adversity and that shouldn't be a trait they lost just because the Overmind died.


That's my point, the SC2 cerebrate retcon was an SC2 retcon, thus we can throw that in the garbage and allow for as many cerebrates as narratively (and logically) necessary to exist under the cloak of darkness.

As much as I would like cerebrates (and the Overmind) to comeback and/or have them fleshed out, part of me thinks that they, too, should just be relegated to the past. Just because they were retconned out, retconning them back in doesn't really solve the issue that it was how and why retconning was implemented in the first place. Retconning them back in is just as bad as retconning them out because the base reason for doing so is "because I didn't like it/I prefer it this way". That's not a good way to build an immersive universe that holds up on a Watsonian level because it gives off the smell that stuff just happens on a whim/due to authorial intent.

Also, BW pretty infers how the cerebrates are pretty much taken out of the picture even though it's not spelled out (... which doesn't make it immune to a later change anyway). The vast majority and most important of them became the neo-Overmind which ultimately got destroyed. The renegade ones were systematically hunted down by Kerrigan. We can infer this because despite how superfluous The Fall campaign was, it does show us the lengths at which Kerrigan will go to in order to have the renegade cerebrates destroyed. It would stand to reason that they would've been hunted down to the point where'd they become even more ineffectual than they already are without the Overmind, regardless of there being a secret cerebrate that was hiding. Indeed, the idea of a secret cerebrate coming out of hiding to contest control of the Zerg may seem "good" on a subjective level but it has the same reek of artifice that pervades the introduction of the Primal Zerg and Zurvan that we got in HotS.



I don't agree that the Zerg are a communist parable. Sure, it's a possible allusion, but it's hardly a proper metaphor, especially given that the swarm has no economy and communism being economically based. I've always seen the Zerg in more generic terms, like they're a metaphor for a group who all agrees with one another -- purity of essence more or less meaning purity of ideology, and thus they're all united against whatever stops them.

But what do you think the Overmind's plan really was? Was it to conquer the Protoss and make them infestible, thus creating his own version of the hybrids?

I think Strat is just conflating the specific ideology of Communism with the general concept of collectivism. I don't think he intended to infer that the Overminds plan was all about the socio-economic order of the Zerg and above its actual stated goal of perfection through assimilation of superior beings (the Protoss being its current ultimate goal).



There is no evidence that they took over most of the K Sector, especially given that a large portion of it belongs to the Protoss and the Zerg.

Doesn't taking control of the neo-Overmind and most of the Zerg constitute as them taking over most of the K-sector? Whilst they may not have had the territory under their physical control per se, they clearly were in the position to do so. I mean it'd have to be in order to have Kerrigan's claims about the UED's threat to hold water and for Raynor and Mengsk to continue assisting Kerrigan as they did.


I don't know that I agree with that. I mean, if the game immediately after BW had not much to do with hybrids, that's cool, but one game in the Starcraft series should have been more or less wholly about them. The hybrids were inserted into the plot as a major game changer, to make everything more exciting and dangerous. If they remain a B story, well, that's one of the reasons why SC2 was so lame, because there the hyped-up hybrids were more or less meaningless. It was Blizzard sweeping them under the rug.

As much as Dark Origins is interesting in terms of introducing a new concept, expanding the lore and providing sequel bait, part of me at the time didn't take much heed of it. I'm not entirely sure if that was because it was a "secret mission" or not. I mean, if it did have as much import as it suggested, I'd have thought that they'd sprinkle the idea of hybrid throughout the BW campaign itself rather than relegate it to somewhere you could easily miss. It feels tacked on but the consequence of that thing seems too big to just merely be a "tack on", so I kind of developed an ambivalence about it's worth. Over time and as my cynicism for sequelitis got worse (which was way before Sc2 was even announced), I tended to see that the only reason Dark Origins was there at all was really just to act as mechanical plot device/sequel bait and nothing more.

I would've much preferred hybrid as a result of Zerg experimentation with Protoss assimilation, since that'd be a more logical extension/development of the three races rather than them being or part of some separate, external force/big bad. I think the Hybrids/Duran thing as external threat/big bad was a development resulting from having the status quo shift so heavily toward the Zerg at the end of BW (like I said previously). Whilst Sc2 fumbled with this idea, it does turn out more or less that this is indeed how the playing field amongst the 3 is evened out again. Thing is, I don't think that any other way would be that much better since the inherent idea that the Hybrid/Duran/superior threat are being used as a mechanical plot device to fix the OPness of the Zerg that was established in BW would still be bleedingly obvious and Doylist in nature regardless.

[KaiserStratosTygo]

Nissa:


"Then do it! I wanna see what you could come up with."

Heh heh heh, already in progress ;)


"And that's my point. Would you have other cerebrates? If so, what's their deal?"

Yes, my idea is that they're largely in hiding rebuilding their broods in secret, possibly communicating with other cerebrates on how to proceed


"I don't agree that the Zerg are a communist parable. Sure, it's a possible allusion, but it's hardly a proper metaphor, especially given that the swarm has no economy and communism being economically based. I've always seen the Zerg in more generic terms, like they're a metaphor for a group who all agrees with one another -- purity of essence more or less meaning purity of ideology, and thus they're all united against whatever stops them."

They do have an economy just not in the exact same sense that we do, all of the Zerg's resources are distributed equally or by need, the means of production is owned by the entirety of the swarm, and other than the Overmind and the Cerebrates which I've discussed, the swarm is its own leader its communism to its logical extreme.

Now they aren't a 1 to 1 comparison of course but they are obviously inspired by the more general ideas of that economic ideology/system


"
But what do you think the Overmind's plan really was? Was it to conquer the Protoss and make them infestible, thus creating his own version of the hybrids?"

My idea was little different from the mainstream, he simply wants them conquered and assimiated, with any stragglers destroyed, however I imagine he's quite fond of the Khala mechanic as stated in my previous post.


"I object to the underlined portion of your quotation. There is no evidence that they took over most of the K Sector, especially given that a large portion of it belongs to the Protoss and the Zerg. "

I don't really see anything that contradicts this, they had forces absolutely everywhere, had conquered the capitol of the main Terran faction had the other two fall under their sway and much of the P and Z forces in Koprulu were destroyed in the Battle of Aiur, the UED in their own campaign took control of the most planets any campaign which supports their conquest.


" There is no evidence that they conquered the Umojans or the Morians. "

They did, they are literally under their control by Episode VI, much in the same way those two temporarily joined the Dominion.


"there's no evidence that their force was comprised mostly of locals. They used locals, sure, but from the game it's pretty clear that they generally only took over Mengsk's Dominion."

They start off with a small force with half their tech tree locked, now you can see this as a gameplay thing, but this seems to imply that they really didn't have that much brought over, it seems to me that whatever else they had was still in orbit of Braxis and wasn't the numerous they allied with the "Confederate Resistance forces" and made off with almost 20 Battlecruisers and whatever crews and forces were still on Dylar IV, remember, the crews and manpower were impressed into the forces and i believe they did this on Braxis as well.

Then midway through the campaign they conquer the Dominion and impress those forces into their army as well. lets not forget that Umoja and Moria fell under their control off screen. Does it outright say they are made mostly out of locals? no, but the implications are everywhere throughout the entirety of the campaign, also one last point, the UED had near total control of one of the races you stated while the other is horrendously damaged to the point where they lost their homeworld to the former.


"That, and them being able to take over the K Sector with just a "paltry fleet" is super OP."

That's why they should have won.


"That's fine, I just feel that that particular void can be filled perfectly well by local human groups/hybrids/Xel'Naga/Protoss factions. Let the players in the game have the day, not just a "oh no, Earth is in danger!" potential plotline."

Eh, fair enough but as you know I'm not the least bit interested in seeing the Xel'Naga come back in any way other than in metaphor, i'd rather have "oh god earth stubbed its toe" ten million times than have the "old gods return" plot.


"Lol, I don't see him as political either. Actually, the highest I see him going is like a local sheriff on some outworld planet, worrying only about the problems happening in his home city. If he's involved in stopping the hybrids somehow, then it's going to be because he's a small-scale person who is too simple to bother with all the "idealist" bullcrap that people like Duran bandy about. Sort of like a smarter version of Samwise from Lord of the Rings -- a person whose pragmatism beats out overly fancy, arrogant politics."

Exactly, he's the most "normal" guy that this series has.


"Ahem, sir, I do believe saying that SC2 does not count. Also, I don't think it's a matter of official punishment, but interpersonal drama. As much as Zeratul's actions are understandable, they also might make people uncomfortable. Just because the player is understanding doesn't mean all the characters will. "

I know, i'm just saying they're more focused on internal "domestic" politics than one guy who they can't even find.


"You know how people are. They're be people who will either condemn Zeratul for not saying what happened (in your version; in my version he would at least report what went on), saying that he should have been faster in getting away from the Zerg, or perhaps that he was a complete idiot for going along with what Kerrigan wanted and thus getting Raszagal killed before they had a chance to fix her. You will perhaps protest that none of these reaction are logical, but I can only reply that it is the nature of people to be illogical. Besides, even if they intellectually understood that Zeratul was as correct as he could be, emotionally they might feel really weird about it."

Sure, I mean if we had a more intimate look at the universe of this series i'd imagine that the Protoss civilians or less combat oriented ones would probably chit chat about "where'd that weirdo, Zeratul go?" and would probably be very pissed off if they found out he did it, that said I think the leadership would put two and two together and not rake him over the coals too much about it, but I can see there being a split between more "hopeful" members and more pragmatic ones I suppose.


" don't know that I agree with that. I mean, if the game immediately after BW had not much to do with hybrids, that's cool, but one game in the Starcraft series should have been more or less wholly about them. "

We're just going to have to agree to disagree I really have no interest in a game focused entirely on the Hybrids or mostly on them I can't see any scenario where that ends well.



" The hybrids were inserted into the plot as a major game changer, to make everything more exciting and dangerous. If they remain a B story, well, that's one of the reasons why SC2 was so lame, because there the hyped-up hybrids were more or less meaningless. It was Blizzard sweeping them under the rug. "

Eh, no SC2' story scked for a million reasons, not focusing too much on Hybrids was not one of them.


"To me it would have been great for the hybrids to be a major player, and then a cerebrate could capture and study one, using them to find out how to infest Protoss. This would present a conflict, as infested Protoss would perhaps have a better chance of destroying the hybrids, but they're just as much of an abomination.

I understand your reluctance to really have the hybrids do something, but their existence is something that needs to be dealt with, sooner or later. It should of course be the case that Starcraft should continue to exist post-hybrids, and that possibly the games could go on indefinitely before the hybrids come into the picture, so that Blizzard has time to figure out a way to make the hybrids awesome instead of a plot hurdle."

They can be dealt with, surely I just can't get behind them being the main course.

Tura:


"I'm actually in agreement with you but part of the problem is that BW sets up the precedent that Kerrigan is pretty much untouchable. Sure, it was contrived even then to have it that way but then to just reverse it in a similar vein sort of undermines the whole thing, breaks immersion and makes the whole universe seem more fake. The reason why Sc2 fails as a sequel is not because people don't subjectively like the changes that happen (defenders of the story will often mistakenly generalise the critics' positions as this), it's because the changes are wholly and obviously Doylist in nature."

Fair enough, but I just can't get behind an untouchable foe, especially as we both agree with how contrived it was for her to get to that point to begin with.


"From the end of Sc1 leading to another alternate take on BW, it'd be more reasonable and sound on a Watsonian level to have Kerrigan make a play for ultimate control and eventually fail because although she is indeed powerful she is also, objectively, a failure. She is outfoxed by the Protoss and fails to be the "determinant" that the Overmind wanted her to be. There's a precedent in Sc1 that Kerrigan is not what she's cracked up to be.

So while I tended to like the idea of Kerrigan "weakening" after the end of BW because she's really not all that great, it sort of doesn't gel with what BW has established. I think an even better option is for the Zerg themselves to outgrow Kerrigan, without weakening her so to speak. This will give agency/identity back to the Zerg Swarm as a race and allow them to develop instead of forever being thought of as "mindless creatures that need a strong leader in order to operate/be relevant". The Zerg as a race are supposed to be about adaptation to adversity and that shouldn't be a trait they lost just because the Overmind died."

Sure, I can get behind that to a point, but i'd still diminish her unearned power, perhaps by combining multiple issues over time, her overconfidence, the Zerg as a species getting tired of her lack of direction (and ironically "vision") the Protoss reuniting with the colonies they're supposed to have, perhapse another UED excursion, the Terrans perhaps inventing or testing new types of anti Zerg weapons? that's my point is that we could easily find a bunch of reasons for how Kerrigan is eventually ousted and new factors are put in play and while some or all at once may be contrived to a point I don't think it necessary has to be, because the idea of a faction being invinicble is already absurd to begin with.


"As much as I would like cerebrates (and the Overmind) to comeback and/or have them fleshed out, part of me thinks that they, too, should just be relegated to the past. Just because they were retconned out, retconning them back in doesn't really solve the issue that it was how and why retconning was implemented in the first place. Retconning them back in is just as bad as retconning them out because the base reason for doing so is "because I didn't like it/I prefer it this way". That's not a good way to build an immersive universe that holds up on a Watsonian level because it gives off the smell that stuff just happens on a whim/due to authorial intent."

Disagree, first we really didn't get that much insight into them, Episode II and VI focused more on Kerrigan and the Overmind, secondly sure it is mostly based on my personal interest but I just don't see a reason not to have them at least attempt to do something, thirdly there is really nothing stopping them from being a part of the story, as the retcons "they all died" is a contrived SC2 era bullshit retcon. fourthly there's really not a lot we can do to replace them with narratively Brood mothers suck, really the Zerg are going to use field generals now? yeah let's have our important leaders "be able to defend themselves" by charging into the fight with their forces and have no immunities whatsoever. I just don't see it.


"Also, BW pretty infers how the cerebrates are pretty much taken out of the picture even though it's not spelled out (... which doesn't make it immune to a later change anyway)."

Well no, it just implies that they were defeated, not destroyed wholesale.


"The vast majority and most important of them became the neo-Overmind which ultimately got destroyed. The renegade ones were systematically hunted down by Kerrigan. We can infer this because despite how superfluous The Fall campaign was, it does show us the lengths at which Kerrigan will go to in order to have the renegade cerebrates destroyed. It would stand to reason that they would've been hunted down to the point where'd they become even more ineffectual than they already are without the Overmind, regardless of there being a secret cerebrate that was hiding. Indeed, the idea of a secret cerebrate coming out of hiding to contest control of the Zerg may seem "good" on a subjective level but it has the same reek of artifice that pervades the introduction of the Primal Zerg and Zurvan that we got in HotS. "

Eh, I think the idea that Kerrigan somehow being able to hunt down and exterminate them all is more "artifical" and reeks of "let's get this plot over with so we can do something different for the sake of different" to me.

So to put it short, I don't agree that the Cerebrate survivors are an artifical forced plot device at least not any more than "they were all killed off by Kerrigan off screen" That being said if you can think of a new organism or plot with the Zerg that isn't Kerrigan indefinitely owning them or shitty inferior subjects like Broodmothers (or those filthy primals) i'm all ears.

[Turalyon]

Fair enough, but I just can't get behind an untouchable foe, especially as we both agree with how contrived it was for her to get to that point to begin with.

This is partly why I think that by the end of BW, the story of Starcraft reached its natural conclusion and didn't warrant a sequel. I mean this on a Watsonian level because of the huge and permanent change in status quo it presents (the Zerg demonstrating themselves to be undisputed top-dog - albeit in the form of Kerrigan). On a Doylist level, too, there are character deaths and plenty of resolution for the various characters (albeit on the downer -end of things) that are only often seen/reserved for finales of works.

The only things that are leftover are loose-ends which aren't really much to go on in both Watsonian and Doylist terms. We have Raynor's "vow", which wouldn't realistically be possible to achieve on a Watsonian level. If it did, it would be couched in Doylist reasons and blatant artifice if he were to ever succeed. To me, the "vow" is more important in terms of character development in that it remarks on the "good man" (which I've never seen Raynor as really - he's just a guy trying to make his way through) finally deciding to/making a dark turn and how nothing "good" will ever come from that. Zeratul is left powerless to do anything about his discovery and the fact that even if he did tell anyone, the Protoss at large can't do anything because they can't even defeat the Zerg let alone take on something supposedly even more powerful. Mengsk and Artanis face uncertain but most likely bleak futures since there is no guarantee that Kerrigan would let them ever rebuild to a state where they could threaten her (which is conveniently and unfathomably elided by "4 years have passed" in order for Sc2 to start). The Hybrid thing is the only plot reason for a sequel to hinge itself around and even that was kind of just thrown in there via secret mission. Despite the earnestness of the characters giving it great import, the way it's given/presented suggests it's not really that important/relevant to the current story of these characters.


Sure, I can get behind that to a point, but i'd still diminish her unearned power, perhaps by combining multiple issues over time, her overconfidence, the Zerg as a species getting tired of her lack of direction (and ironically "vision") the Protoss reuniting with the colonies they're supposed to have, perhapse another UED excursion, the Terrans perhaps inventing or testing new types of anti Zerg weapons? that's my point is that we could easily find a bunch of reasons for how Kerrigan is eventually ousted and new factors are put in play and while some or all at once may be contrived to a point I don't think it necessary has to be, because the idea of a faction being invinicble is already absurd to begin with.

Well, I think that to honour what BW left us with (the Zerg being OP and Kerrigan being OP), we can't just arbitrarily weaken Kerrigan specifically or have some outside factor (like the Hybrids) provide the weakening without it whiffing of contrivance. Since the Zerg are OP in BW (they seem more powerful in BW than they ever did in Sc1 and they had the Overmind then!), I would actually like them to be the source of Kerrigan's "weakening". I don't mean that by having to go back and have cerebrates coming out of nowhere to take the Zerg back but to have the Zerg actually change and adapt to their situation such that they develop beyond Kerrigan's ability to control them. It'd be something new without having to resort to artifice like bringing back the Overmind and/or cerebrates (which, don't get me wrong, I have always had a liking/preference to). This new type of Zerg would've been the basis of my concept for "primal" Zerg - there is a greatness within the Zerg (their purity of essence?) that is not tied to the Overmind nor was lost when it died nor would it be indefinitely bound to one individual like Kerrigan.


Disagree, first we really didn't get that much insight into them, Episode II and VI focused more on Kerrigan and the Overmind, secondly sure it is mostly based on my personal interest but I just don't see a reason not to have them at least attempt to do something, thirdly there is really nothing stopping them from being a part of the story, as the retcons "they all died" is a contrived SC2 era bullshit retcon. fourthly there's really not a lot we can do to replace them with narratively Brood mothers suck, really the Zerg are going to use field generals now? yeah let's have our important leaders "be able to defend themselves" by charging into the fight with their forces and have no immunities whatsoever. I just don't see it.

I totally get where this is coming from. I too wish there was more to do with cerebrates as well but I think that this would've been better served or explored in a revisionist take of BW, not a continuation from BW. From the end of BW, the cerebrates are sadly relegated to "yesterday's news". :(


Eh, I think the idea that Kerrigan somehow being able to hunt down and exterminate them all is more "artifical" and reeks of "let's get this plot over with so we can do something different for the sake of different" to me.

I'm in full agreement here, too. Unfortunately, that's what BW has setup and you have to live with that if you're making a continuation from BW.


So to put it short, I don't agree that the Cerebrate survivors are an artifical forced plot device at least not any more than "they were all killed off by Kerrigan off screen" That being said if you can think of a new organism or plot with the Zerg that isn't Kerrigan indefinitely owning them or shitty inferior subjects like Broodmothers (or those filthy primals) i'm all ears.

I'm not creative enough to figure up something for the K-sector Zerg that wouldn't be dissimilar to cerebrates anyway (afterall, Broodmothers are more or less cerebrates in terms of function and role anyway), but I would like the idea of leaderless packs of Zerg that form together for specific goals but yet fight other packs of Zerg as the need arises. Basically, an exploration of and development of the feral state of Zerg beyond them just being thought of as "mindless, kill anything within reach including themselves/needing a leader to do anything" mentality that they're saddled with would be great. The forced fracturing of the Zerg due to the loss of the Overmind, would lead to the formation of independent groups as a developmental means to cope without relying on a single overreaching hivemind like the Overmind. Maybe they could start forming small localised hivemind links that can't be linked with other Zerg groups. This is what I would prefer to see as primal Zerg than what we got in HotS. Of course, they wouldn't have characters you could interact with per se but people who like Zerg aren't liking them because they're about deep characters...

This would help diminish Kerrigan's control over the entire Zerg because she relies on the entirety of the Zerg being one giant hivemind in order to control them. Kerrigan would then be relegated to control over her local brood whilst still being a viable character without too much power. Still, the raw OPness of her character still has some troubling instances that need to be worked around, like her ability to mind control Protoss for one thing...

If you're asking for a purely personal preference though, I've always harbored the idea that the Overmind never died. Just imagine what that would be like having the greater Zerg Swarm from beyond coming back to the Koprulu sector finding off-shoot broods that it can't exert control over (due to them having developed away from needing a single unifying hivemind to function), including Kerrigan and her little niche brood. More Watsonian reasons for ZvZ, that's what!

[KaiserStratosTygo]

I can agree with most that, especially the last paragraph, it always seemed to me as well that the Overmind is something that is intrinsically made up of by all members of the Zerg.

[Nissa]

They do have an economy just not in the exact same sense that we do, all of the Zerg's resources are distributed equally or by need, the means of production is owned by the entirety of the swarm, and other than the Overmind and the Cerebrates which I've discussed, the swarm is its own leader its communism to its logical extreme.

Now they aren't a 1 to 1 comparison of course but they are obviously inspired by the more general ideas of that economic ideology/system

I still think restraining the swarm to only communism is a stretch. They could be a parable for any number of things, and communism is just one option.

I read Cold War histories, so trust me, there are better allegories out there.



I don't really see anything that contradicts this, they had forces absolutely everywhere, had conquered the capitol of the main Terran faction had the other two fall under their sway and much of the P and Z forces in Koprulu were destroyed in the Battle of Aiur, the UED in their own campaign took control of the most planets any campaign which supports their conquest.

You see what you're saying with your first sentence, right? It's the equivalent of me saying, "Oh yes, Raynor DEFINITELY is obsessed with lolipops. No, I have no proof, but nothing in the game contradicts this!" The thing about proof is that you need evidence for statement you make, not merely evidence that it was never directly contradicted. Honestly, the UED was powerful enough as a faction by simply taking over Dominion forces/forces of others who wanted to stand against the Dominion. There is neither evidence, need, nor time for them to bother about Umoja or Moria.


They did, they are literally under their control by Episode VI, much in the same way those two temporarily joined the Dominion.

[Insert Evidence Here]



Eh, fair enough but as you know I'm not the least bit interested in seeing the Xel'Naga come back in any way other than in metaphor, i'd rather have "oh god earth stubbed its toe" ten million times than have the "old gods return" plot

Actually I wouldn't mind that plot (it's far less common then the "oh noes, Earth is in danger!" plot), but really, I expected the return of the Xel'Naga to be more or less like powerful quantum scientists returning, and any Protoss who happened to feel that they were gods would be disillusioned. I would have betted that Blizzard would have gone that direction. I also assumed that Protoss gods were not the Xel'Naga, but legends from an earlier time that different factions may or may not have assumed had to do with the Xel'Naga. But that's not something that was ever settled.



Sure, I mean if we had a more intimate look at the universe of this series i'd imagine that the Protoss civilians or less combat oriented ones would probably chit chat about "where'd that weirdo, Zeratul go?" and would probably be very pissed off if they found out he did it, that said I think the leadership would put two and two together and not rake him over the coals too much about it, but I can see there being a split between more "hopeful" members and more pragmatic ones I suppose.

That's what I want, though. For Zeratul's actions to flavor how people treat him. We the audience think he is super cool, but we don't live in his world, so the other people shouldn't treat him the way the audience does.

This sort of thing has been going on a lot with Mengsk in the novels. All the characters will notice how evil he is, despite the fact that most of the characters, from their perspectives, would have no way of truly knowing what Mengsk's deal is, because they lack the perspective of the audience.



We're just going to have to agree to disagree I really have no interest in a game focused entirely on the Hybrids or mostly on them I can't see any scenario where that ends well.

As a writer, I must state that almost all plotlines can be written in an interesting way, you just have to have the talent as a writer to do it. Meaning that if Blizzard had a good enough writer, they could make you like, or at least be briefly interested in, a hybrid storyline. However, my main point is that because Blizzard put them in the story, they now have to deal with the hybrids in a way that is interesting; they have to face the consequences of their actions, and merely sweeping the hybrids under the carpet as they did was a cheap way of avoiding their own plot-responsibility.

Again, it's sort of like how Mengsk was treated. He's a very important character in SC/BW, but in SC2 he's merely a motivating factor ready to be killed off and replaced by his bad-haired son. Blizzard's writers clearly didn't know how to use Mengsk, so they ignored him to the "best" of their abilities.



Eh, no SC2' story scked for a million reasons, not focusing too much on Hybrids was not one of them.

Incorrect. The hybrids were a plot element that they introduced, and they had to deal with it properly. They failed, so it is a reason why SC2 sucked. Perhaps not one of the more important ones, but it was one.

I'd argue that the biggest flaw with SC2 was the utter contempt with how they treated past canon. The hybrids were a part of that, however small.



They can be dealt with, surely I just can't get behind them being the main course.

I would be okay with it for one game, or at least using some hybrid characters as a way to boost the plot somehow. I do sympathize with your dislike for them, as they were never really developed. I merely express the fact that they could and should have been developed.

[KaiserStratosTygo]

"I still think restraining the swarm to only communism is a stretch. They could be a parable for any number of things, and communism is just one option.

I read Cold War histories, so trust me, there are better allegories out there."

As have I and I don't think there is, not in any human sense anyway and its not necessarily "only" communism but its obviously allegorical to it.

basically I don't think there's a closer fit, a closer set of tic boxes that would coincide with the Zerg and X Allegory.


"You see what you're saying with your first sentence, right? It's the equivalent of me saying, "Oh yes, Raynor DEFINITELY is obsessed with lolipops. No, I have no proof, but nothing in the game contradicts this!" The thing about proof is that you need evidence for statement you make, not merely evidence that it was never directly contradicted. Honestly, the UED was powerful enough as a faction by simply taking over Dominion forces/forces of others who wanted to stand against the Dominion. There is neither evidence, need, nor time for them to bother about Umoja or Moria.
"

No, it actually doesn't, I proceeded to supplement that statement with facts that supports my argument, you can't just take that statement out of its context as an argument.

Please don't do that.


"[Insert Evidence Here]"

Looking for it now..


"Actually I wouldn't mind that plot (it's far less common then the "oh noes, Earth is in danger!" plot), but really, I expected the return of the Xel'Naga to be more or less like powerful quantum scientists returning, and any Protoss who happened to feel that they were gods would be disillusioned. I would have betted that Blizzard would have gone that direction. I also assumed that Protoss gods were not the Xel'Naga, but legends from an earlier time that different factions may or may not have assumed had to do with the Xel'Naga. But that's not something that was ever settled. "

That's possible, but I'd rather just avoid that mess altogether to me its far too easy to screw something like that up.


"That's what I want, though. For Zeratul's actions to flavor how people treat him. We the audience think he is super cool, but we don't live in his world, so the other people shouldn't treat him the way the audience does.


Sure enough, but it didn't seem like that opportunity was going to arise (at least not far a long time)


"This sort of thing has been going on a lot with Mengsk in the novels. All the characters will notice how evil he is, despite the fact that most of the characters, from their perspectives, would have no way of truly knowing what Mengsk's deal is, because they lack the perspective of the audience.
"

Exactly, not to mention his image other than some of the leads INITIALLY! would be the guy that united humanity against filthy Xenos, however people would likely perceive him as a lame duck loser since their fledgling union was conquered, than attacked by the Zerg (I imagine some civilian conspiracy theorists probably concocted a bizarre theory that Mengsk might be WORKING WITH THE ALIENS!)



"As a writer, I must state that almost all plotlines can be written in an interesting way, you just have to have the talent as a writer to do it"


Once again we're just going to have to agree to disagree on that one, I think there are plenty of plots that are just too stupid, limited or uninteresting to make interesting.


"Meaning that if Blizzard had a good enough writer, they could make you like, or at least be briefly interested in, a hybrid storyline."

Eh, that's exceedingly unlikely, I think the Sun would turn blue before that ever happened.


" However, my main point is that because Blizzard put them in the story, they now have to deal with the hybrids in a way that is interesting; they have to face the consequences of their actions, and merely sweeping the hybrids under the carpet as they did was a cheap way of avoiding their own plot-responsibility."

Perhaps, but that's not really our problem, since they wrote themselves into a corner with that plot point, as much as I'd hate to take the "easy cheap way" out, i'd use my "life line" to on this plot and try to rectify it by making the rest of the narrative more interesting.


"Again, it's sort of like how Mengsk was treated. He's a very important character in SC/BW, but in SC2 he's merely a motivating factor ready to be killed off and replaced by his bad-haired son. Blizzard's writers clearly didn't know how to use Mengsk, so they ignored him to the "best" of their abilities."

Eh, I think he was treated incorrectly in a different sense, in that he was made even dumber and more incompetent despite magically having his powerbase and fleets back, they turned Mengsk into a mustache twirling imbecile, not because they were in nearly impossible narrative situation (Mengsk was at his best when he was a rebel leader) but because they wanted to copy off of modern super hero films that were starting to become popular around SC2's development and release.


"ncorrect. The hybrids were a plot element that they introduced, and they had to deal with it properly. They failed, so it is a reason why SC2 sucked. Perhaps not one of the more important ones, but it was one."

Disagree completely, The hybrids were introduced in an optional secret mission, you seem to overestimate their importance in the story, and honestly they did focus quite a bit on the hybrids, not in a satisfactory way (which imo would've been for all intents and purposes impossible), but I don't feel like they were neglected all that much.

I'm not even sure if the Hybrid screen time "problem" would even be on a list of "30 reasons why SC2's story failed"


"I'd argue that the biggest flaw with SC2 was the utter contempt with how they treated past canon. The hybrids were a part of that, however small.
"

I agree, just not on the hybrid subject.


"I would be okay with it for one game, or at least using some hybrid characters as a way to boost the plot somehow. I do sympathize with your dislike for them, as they were never really developed. I merely express the fact that they could and should have been developed."

I just can't at all see them being interesting, they're basically plot coupons even as they were introduced and honestly I just don't see any story-line that make them NOT that.

[Turalyon]

Nissa does have a point about that any idea or plotline can be interesting if written well enough. Even if they do just serve mechanically in the plot as generic villains, they can still be considered great if they can bring forth some great characterisation from the main players. Just look at how the Reapers are used in Mass Effect. They are clearly there only to serve mechanically in the plot as the implacable, existential threat that has to be overcome but their presence brings out and inflames all the inherent drama amongst the characters and alien factions. Sure, this stuff was always there even without the Reapers, but with the Reapers, it puts all of this out in stark relief. The value of using the Reapers is not wholly about what they are and what makes them tick (indeed, revealing their nature in Me3 is one of the most disappointing things about them - it's better off if we didn't know) but how everything/everyone else reacts to their presence or even the knowledge of their existence.

It's curious how devisive the concept of hybrids are amongst the fans since their introduction in BW. It's because they were presented as sequel bait that a large number of fans were more or less expecting them to be pervasive throughout all of Sc2. I think this is partly why Sc2 is disappointing because the sequel bait is only really given its due in the last third of what it is supposed to be a trilogy (it's why Sc2 also fails as a complete work/trilogy). For those fans, they were more or less looking for LotV from the get-go and found that entry the most enjoyable when it eventually came because it was finally giving that original sequel bait its due. Upon reflection now, the brevity of it is also testimony to how empty that initial sequel bait (and the concept/idea of it) was in the first place and how forming a sequel off that bait is probably not the best way to approach a sequel.

I'm thinking that maybe that the writers may have noticed that then, which is why they decided to rely on the "focus on character" angle to make up for that. Course, that didn't really work out for them either given how hodge-podge and schizoid Raynor's character turned out to be in WoL. HotS was a lot more focused but suffered from overt Doylist manipulation (the protagonist centred morality being one thing in particular) and the main character having nothing new/fresh that we didn't already know about them. LotV improved upon this by having a character we know little about (so there's less preconceived notions influencing how we should think the character would behave and whatnot) but then proceeded to have them be as generic as possible and have that archetype not go through much character development at all - which is pretty boring on one hand but also goes against their idea of "focus on character" in the first place. At least Artanis is consistent I suppose, but then again, we spent 5 years to finally get a character that is just plain serviceable on a basic degree when we really should've got that at the least in the very first place.

It's a further shame and wasted opportunity because the Hybrids, even though they are supposed to be the big bad, aren't used in the way the Reapers are in ME to inform or develop characterisation.

[Nissa]

As have I and I don't think there is, not in any human sense anyway and its not necessarily "only" communism but its obviously allegorical to it.

basically I don't think there's a closer fit, a closer set of tic boxes that would coincide with the Zerg and X Allegory.

Actually, I had it in my head that this was an anti-religious plotline, like a metaphor for zealousness gone wrong.


No, it actually doesn't, I proceeded to supplement that statement with facts that supports my argument, you can't just take that statement out of its context as an argument.

Please don't do that.

Sorry. For the moment I shall await actual, in-game proof of your statements.



That's possible, but I'd rather just avoid that mess altogether to me its far too easy to screw something like that up.

Hm...well, define "avoid that mess altogether." What do you mean by this? The hybrids were introduced, so they're in irreversibly in the plot. What do you think should have been done with them that would have been adequate, but would also "avoid that mess"?



Once again we're just going to have to agree to disagree on that one, I think there are plenty of plots that are just too stupid, limited or uninteresting to make interesting.

I said almost all, not all. Certainly dumb plots exist. Plots in general, however, are frameworks, and it's the specific information within that framework that decides good or bad.



Eh, that's exceedingly unlikely, I think the Sun would turn blue before that ever happened.

True, but technically speaking the possibility exists.




Perhaps, but that's not really our problem, since they wrote themselves into a corner with that plot point, as much as I'd hate to take the "easy cheap way" out, i'd use my "life line" to on this plot and try to rectify it by making the rest of the narrative more interesting.

I'm not referring to this in the sense of the audience. I am referring to this as a writer attempting to take the SC plot as of BW and make a respectable sequel out of it. So, we have to do something with the hybrids.


Eh, I think he was treated incorrectly in a different sense, in that he was made even dumber and more incompetent despite magically having his powerbase and fleets back, they turned Mengsk into a mustache twirling imbecile, not because they were in nearly impossible narrative situation (Mengsk was at his best when he was a rebel leader) but because they wanted to copy off of modern super hero films that were starting to become popular around SC2's development and release.

Well yeah, but they were basically using that as an excuse to dump the character. Mengsk the deep, interesting madman is much harder to kill off than Mengsk the stupid, generic goverment baddie. They kept saying stuff like "Mengsk's story has been told" and all that.



Disagree completely, The hybrids were introduced in an optional secret mission, you seem to overestimate their importance in the story, and honestly they did focus quite a bit on the hybrids, not in a satisfactory way (which imo would've been for all intents and purposes impossible), but I don't feel like they were neglected all that much.

I'm not even sure if the Hybrid screen time "problem" would even be on a list of "30 reasons why SC2's story failed"

No. Don't you remember back in the day? Don't you remember all the people excited about what a game changer the hybrids were? All the speculation and theorizing? Besides, Duran's epic speech made it clear that this was going to be a game changer. Optional does not mean optional canon. Just because the Zeratul missions in WoL were optional doesn't mean that Blizz didn't mean them to count so far as story goes. It just means the player didn't see them. Actually, that's the case with all optional missions in any game, except the ones specifically created to present a different path in the story.

Blizz promised us the excitement of a gamechanging faction. There was neither excitement nor game changing. Problem.


I just can't at all see them being interesting, they're basically plot coupons even as they were introduced and honestly I just don't see any story-line that make them NOT that.

Says the non-writer. :P

Joking, joking. Anyway, a plot element is as interesting as a writer makes it. A powerful character can be either epic or OP. A sad girl can either be sympathetic or annoying. An undefined race can be interesting or not interesting. It's the writer that makes it, assuming they have the imagination to do so.

[KaiserStratosTygo]

"Actually, I had it in my head that this was an anti-religious plotline, like a metaphor for zealousness gone wrong. "

Perhap, but I don't know, the Overmind himself feels too "godly" in how he speaks


"Sorry. For the moment I shall await actual, in-game proof of your statements."

Trying to look for it somewhere, perhaps I was wrong on that one? I don't know.


"True, but technically speaking the possibility exists."

Yeah.. but its within the same realm as an Alien named SaiserTratosKygo talking about "StellarConstruction" on the Omniweb.


"I'm not referring to this in the sense of the audience. I am referring to this as a writer attempting to take the SC plot as of BW and make a respectable sequel out of it. So, we have to do something with the hybrids."

Sure, but they really don't have to be the focus at all.


"Well yeah, but they were basically using that as an excuse to dump the character. Mengsk the deep, interesting madman is much harder to kill off than Mengsk the stupid, generic goverment baddie. They kept saying stuff like "Mengsk's story has been told" and all that. "

Absolutely. that last bit was so stupid too when they said that.


"No. Don't you remember back in the day? Don't you remember all the people excited about what a game changer the hybrids were? All the speculation and theorizing? Besides, Duran's epic speech made it clear that this was going to be a game changer. Optional does not mean optional canon. Just because the Zeratul missions in WoL were optional doesn't mean that Blizz didn't mean them to count so far as story goes. It just means the player didn't see them. Actually, that's the case with all optional missions in any game, except the ones specifically created to present a different path in the story. "

I do I just don't remember people being that exited about the hybrids, most of what I recall was more general, and based on what the established races were doing.

Again if they watned th Hybrrid plot to be more of a focus they shouldn't have made it a "secret" optional mission.

"Says the non-writer. :P "

I certainly write, just not books or published material. lol.


"Joking, joking. Anyway, a plot element is as interesting as a writer makes it. A powerful character can be either epic or OP. A sad girl can either be sympathetic or annoying. An undefined race can be interesting or not interesting. It's the writer that makes it, assuming they have the imagination to do so."

Sure, but there are still limitations based on both real life logic and the level of disbelief one is expected to have and the internal logic of the series.

But I get what you mean, I just don't see any scenario from even a dream team of the best sci fi writers doing anything interesting with this plot, maybe that's just me.

[sandwich_bird]

I'm not creative enough to figure up something for the K-sector Zerg that wouldn't be dissimilar to cerebrates anyway (afterall, Broodmothers are more or less cerebrates in terms of function and role anyway), but I would like the idea of leaderless packs of Zerg that form together for specific goals but yet fight other packs of Zerg as the need arises. Basically, an exploration of and development of the feral state of Zerg beyond them just being thought of as "mindless, kill anything within reach including themselves/needing a leader to do anything" mentality that they're saddled with would be great. The forced fracturing of the Zerg due to the loss of the Overmind, would lead to the formation of independent groups as a developmental means to cope without relying on a single overreaching hivemind like the Overmind. Maybe they could start forming small localised hivemind links that can't be linked with other Zerg groups. This is what I would prefer to see as primal Zerg than what we got in HotS. Of course, they wouldn't have characters you could interact with per se but people who like Zerg aren't liking them because they're about deep characters...

This would help diminish Kerrigan's control over the entire Zerg because she relies on the entirety of the Zerg being one giant hivemind in order to control them. Kerrigan would then be relegated to control over her local brood whilst still being a viable character without too much power. Still, the raw OPness of her character still has some troubling instances that need to be worked around, like her ability to mind control Protoss for one thing...

If you're asking for a purely personal preference though, I've always harbored the idea that the Overmind never died. Just imagine what that would be like having the greater Zerg Swarm from beyond coming back to the Koprulu sector finding off-shoot broods that it can't exert control over (due to them having developed away from needing a single unifying hivemind to function), including Kerrigan and her little niche brood. More Watsonian reasons for ZvZ, that's what!

I came up with the idea below a while back:


I proposed before that the zerg's mind link could become infected with some kind of "virus" that sever Kerri/Zag's ability to control the swarm and instead make the affected zergs act through a true hive mind that has 0 centralized power. This virus could be the remnant of Amon's control.

But lets forget the true hive mind part and Amon, what if that "virus" is actually the remnant of the overmind. That would be cool imo.

Otherwise, Kerrigan could do like the overmind did and infest other strong psi terrans. You could justify the reasoning for this in multiple ways.

Maybe there's a limit to how many zerg Kerrigan(due to her not being the overmind...) can control and we never saw this in bw because she didn't have a chance to reach that ceiling. The limit of her power was never defined. So, as she tries to increase the size of her armies, she realizes many of the newborns are going feral. This might allow some broodmothers or survivor cerebrates to break free from her control and challenge her.

The psi disruptors are still a thing. The UED were able to control the zerg before, Mengsk could try to do it. The protoss?

What about a secret cast of dark archons who master the art of controlling the zerg?

[Turalyon]

But lets forget the true hive mind part and Amon, what if that "virus" is actually the remnant of the overmind. That would be cool imo.

I wouldn't mind this since it fits in with my conception of the Overmind being a "bodiless entity" and the Zerg swarm essentially being the body for the Overmind, but in terms of the narrative and the timing (since we're talking about alternate continuations after BW), I'm not sure it'd gel well. The Overmind coming back at all in BW was somewhat unprecedented even then for all the good and bad that that entailed, but just having the Overmind comeback again in yet another unprecedented but similar way may be taking things a bit too far, conceit-wise. I think it'd be better in terms of development and "newness" that the Zerg in the K sector grow from the consequence of having lost the Overmind for good and not remain static/binary (as they are now) in that they must always have some controlling them in order for them to be considered relevant. Moving away from the typical hivemind we've always known them for and seen would also help them breakaway from Kerrigan OPness/ability to control them, too.


Otherwise, Kerrigan could do like the overmind did and infest other strong psi terrans. You could justify the reasoning for this in multiple ways.

This could be interesting but given Kerrigan's paranoia and control issues, I'd imagine she'd have to neuter such Terrans so they wouldn't have a chance to turn against her. They probbably wouldn't be as useful to her then. However, this idea could also work in allowing her downfall/weakening and thematically, too, because it'd be by her own hands.


Maybe there's a limit to how many zerg Kerrigan(due to her not being the overmind...) can control and we never saw this in bw because she didn't have a chance to reach that ceiling. The limit of her power was never defined. So, as she tries to increase the size of her armies, she realizes many of the newborns are going feral. This might allow some broodmothers or survivor cerebrates to break free from her control and challenge her.

I like the idea of Kerrigan not being the Overmind as a means to limit her OPness, too, but the pooch is kinda screwed when she can exhibit the ability to mind-control Protoss, which is something not even the Overmind could've done. One would think that being able to control a Protoss mind would mean she'd had the capability to control many lesser Zerg minds, relatively speaking. The idea would work best in a revisionist take of BW but not necessarily a continuation from BW, since it's established in BW that she is definitely OP.


The psi disruptors are still a thing. The UED were able to control the zerg before, Mengsk could try to do it.

Ugh, I hate the Psi Disruptor since it was nothing but a plot device that was hiterto unknown until it was conveniently needed and introduces too many plot holes. It's one thing for a Psi-emitter to just broadcast Ghost psi signals on a broader scale, but it's entirely on a different scale when a Psi-Disruptor can manipulate the Zerg directly and wholesale. With the former, the tech never presumes that it actively controls the Zerg in anyway (although later lore like Covert Ops retcon this) since it's just sending out a signal. The attraction of the Zerg is just an observed/consequential effect, not an intended or direct effect of the device itself. The attraction of the Zerg is coincidental to the Overmind wanting a Terran psionic as its determinant, not just because Zerg are innately attracted to psionic signals (if they were, they wouldn't have had so much trouble finding the Protoss since they give off more stronger psionic signals...).

Given that Duran hints that it was rare and difficult to find (as a lampshade to how plot-devicey it is), it can also be naturally assumed that there's only one and more can't be built. Since it got thoroughly trashed, it'd be overtly convenient if another just suddenly cropped up again. Then again, BW is littered with instances of sudden OP artifice, so I guess it sets the precedent for more to appear/reappear when needed in stories after BW. Meh.


The protoss?

This is probably one of the biggest consequential issues that come from the Psi-Disruptor plot device. If the Terrans, are psionically and technologically inferior to the Protoss, but can come up with such a rudimentary but oh-so effective technology that can effectively neuter the Zerg, why haven't the Protoss been able to do such a thing nor consider such action? I mean, heck, why are the Protoss so damned weak against Zerg/Zerg even OP and winning in BW at all?!?

[sandwich_bird]

'm not sure it'd gel well. The Overmind coming back at all in BW was somewhat unprecedented even then for all the good and bad that that entailed, but just having the Overmind comeback again in yet another unprecedented but similar way may be taking things a bit too far, conceit-wise.

Granted, it's redundant but at the same time it would be a good twist to establish it as an immortal being.


he Zerg in the K sector grow from the consequence of having lost the Overmind for good and not remain static/binary (as they are now) in that they must always have some controlling them in order for them to be considered relevant. Moving away from the typical hivemind we've always known them for and seen would also help them breakaway from Kerrigan OPness/ability to control them, too.

So you'd be more willing to go with the true hivemind idea? I could take back the original idea and say that the psi virus grew from the remnant of the overmind but IS NOT a manifestation of it and does not result in the infected trying to remake an overmind. Basically when the overmind died on Aiur, the entity and the personality we know was dead but some zergs kept a fragment of his directive encoded in the psi network that controls them. That fragment was the unity of the race and its end goal(assimilate everything). The rogue code/virus basically. The result is that the zergs under this virus have no masters and operate under a true hivemind. They are also immune to psi disruptor tech because there is nothing controlling them; their will is technically their own even if they act as one.

The big question with all that is where was this magical virus during bw? Maybe it would be easier to say that it came from the 2nd overmind rather than the first. The timeframe between its death and the end of BW is small enough to allow the beginning of this whole thing to be unknown to Kerrigan and co. The virus would only have a few good hosts at first after all.




This could be interesting but given Kerrigan's paranoia and control issues, I'd imagine she'd have to neuter such Terrans so they wouldn't have a chance to turn against her. They probbably wouldn't be as useful to her then. However, this idea could also work in allowing her downfall/weakening and thematically, too, because it'd be by her own hands.

There's a precedent to it with Duran technically (though that raises a lot of questions...).




I like the idea of Kerrigan not being the Overmind as a means to limit her OPness, too, but the pooch is kinda screwed when she can exhibit the ability to mind-control Protoss, which is something not even the Overmind could've done. One would think that being able to control a Protoss mind would mean she'd had the capability to control many lesser Zerg minds, relatively speaking. The idea would work best in a revisionist take of BW but not necessarily a continuation from BW, since it's established in BW that she is definitely OP.

Not necessarily. She might be better suited than the overmind to MC a protoss but lack in other aspects. It's not inconceivable. The requirements to do theses things might not be mutually exchangeable and they were never defined.

Speaking of which, that gives me an idea for your next points regarding the psi disruptor. Maybe the reason why the psi disruptor can even exist in BW is because Kerrigan control over the swarm isn't as strong as the Overmind's. Maybe the protoss did try to make such a device in the past but it just didn't work because the overmind was too strong. Then they lose their homeworld and are on the run so presumably they didn't necessarily have the needed opportunities to make a new one.

Another possible obvious explanation is that it's probably dishonorable for a Protoss to use zergs to defeat zergs. This is where I was getting this idea of Dark Archon doing it. DTs are edgy and would be more willing to do stuff like that presumably. Dark Archons specifically have the MC ability so why not?

[Turalyon]

Granted, it's redundant but at the same time it would be a good twist to establish it as an immortal being.

I thought the same way for a long time, too. Especially so, when I didn't consider the Overmind actually being killed at the time (if you recall my fanon theory was that the Overmind was like a cloud-like network that existed within the entirety of the Zerg swarm and that the Overmind that was killed in the K sector was a node to that network - essentially shutting them off from the Overmind network). However, it seems to me that the intent was for the Overmind and the concept of the Zerg hivemind to be destroyed in total by the end of BW and though I would preferentially like the Overmind to comeback, I realise that it's not good on both a Doylist and Watsonian perspective of the story moving forward.


So you'd be more willing to go with the true hivemind idea? I could take back the original idea and say that the psi virus grew from the remnant of the overmind but IS NOT a manifestation of it and does not result in the infected trying to remake an overmind. Basically when the overmind died on Aiur, the entity and the personality we know was dead but some zergs kept a fragment of his directive encoded in the psi network that controls them. That fragment was the unity of the race and its end goal(assimilate everything). The rogue code/virus basically. The result is that the zergs under this virus have no masters and operate under a true hivemind. They are also immune to psi disruptor tech because there is nothing controlling them; their will is technically their own even if they act as one.

I don't mind the concept of this, though I would hesitate to call it a virus since that'd denote something foreign whereas this ability should speak more of their innate nature as the Zerg. Indeed, this could hearken back to their innate purity of essence (as it was described in the manual - not the retcon in Sc2) and their true, natural state if the Xel'Naga had not created the Overmind for them. This could be the true form of what primal Zerg would look like.

If I did have one major reservation with this concept though, it is that the hivemind here seems more or less like it was with the Overmind and that the only difference is that it doesn't have the Overmind. In other words, the difference is superficial. This kinda devalues the Overminds importance retrospectively (if the Zerg were always going to evolve into a true hivemind, the Overmind character was actually unnecessary really) and removes the consequence of the Overmind dying. That's kinda why I had it such that the Zerg broods are not wholly unified (and to allow some proper lore explanation for ZvZ) with their development/evolution away from a single hivemind. The Zerg in this instance may be unified in their philosophy of achieving perfection but not in their methods, whereas before when the Zerg where under the Overmind, the broods were all unified despite the broods having distinct roles.


There's a precedent to it with Duran technically (though that raises a lot of questions...).

Yeah, but he disappeared when she needed him. It's unclear whether Kerrigan intended her infested Terrans to have much potential leeway, but whether she did or not at the time is moot since you'd think that Duran being physically capable of leaving her without her being able to reign him back would force her to be a bit more restrictive in any future attempts to make infested terran slaves.


Not necessarily. She might be better suited than the overmind to MC a protoss but lack in other aspects. It's not inconceivable. The requirements to do theses things might not be mutually exchangeable and they were never defined.

That it was "never defined" makes it cut both ways. It leads one to take the easier presumption that it was so only because it was a convenient plot device. The alternative is for one to make an elaborate fanon excuse for it and then defending it with the "argument from ignorance" fallacy.


Speaking of which, that gives me an idea for your next points regarding the psi disruptor. Maybe the reason why the psi disruptor can even exist in BW is because Kerrigan control over the swarm isn't as strong as the Overmind's. Maybe the protoss did try to make such a device in the past but it just didn't work because the overmind was too strong. Then they lose their homeworld and are on the run so presumably they didn't necessarily have the needed opportunities to make a new one.

The justification for why it works against Kerrigan is sound if we are to assume Kerrigan is lesser than the Overmind (though this would be at odds with later retcons which establish Kerrigan as being of the Overmind's equal if not better considering she was to be the supposed successor of the Overmind anyway) but not the reason for its existence. Duran states that this machine existed at the time the Confederacy was around and that it was known to disrupt Zerg signals even then. It must work well enough since Duran (who we know is someone more than what he appears) wouldn't advocate for its destruction otherwise (indeed, it would be more useful to keep around for his greater purpose of making sure the Zerg don't interrupt his hybrid plans in future). Still, this begs the question of why the Confederacy didn't use it... leading one to form even more unfounded fanon conspiracy theories to explain why.

A better excuse for the Protoss, and in-keeping with their haughtiness, for why they didn't devise such a device in the first instance is because they didn't feel the compulsion/need to do so. Aldaris is not worried about the Zerg at all even after they've invaded Aiur and is confident in their abilities to "overcome the entire Zerg swarm with the might and fury that is their heritage" afterall. Still, you'd think that after their loss they'd would try and devise something of the sort. It shouldn't be too difficult or as laborious as the Terrans coming up with such tech would be since they're whole race is built around psionic based tech.

Either way, the Psi Disruptor is a crummy plot device that creates too many plot holes to paper over.


Another possible obvious explanation is that it's probably dishonorable for a Protoss to use zergs to defeat zergs. This is where I was getting this idea of Dark Archon doing it. DTs are edgy and would be more willing to do stuff like that presumably. Dark Archons specifically have the MC ability so why not?

The Psi-disruptor is not about using Zergs to defeat Zergs per se. It's about breaking up their cohesion and military effectiveness by disrupting their hivemind communications. It would give the Protoss a significant tactical and strategic edge in future military engagements with the Zerg.

[sandwich_bird]

If I did have one major reservation with this concept though, it is that the hivemind here seems more or less like it was with the Overmind and that the only difference is that it doesn't have the Overmind. In other words, the difference is superficial. This kinda devalues the Overminds importance retrospectively (if the Zerg were always going to evolve into a true hivemind, the Overmind character was actually unnecessary really) and removes the consequence of the Overmind dying. That's kinda why I had it such that the Zerg broods are not wholly unified (and to allow some proper lore explanation for ZvZ) with their development/evolution away from a single hivemind. The Zerg in this instance may be unified in their philosophy of achieving perfection but not in their methods, whereas before when the Zerg where under the Overmind, the broods were all unified despite the broods having distinct roles.


The way I imagined it, it would be different in the sense that there would be no sentience. The zergs would be biological automatons that act in unison due to how they're programmed. In contrast, the previous zerg swarm under the overmind had a sentient leader with sentient subordinates(cerebrates, overlords) that could devise thoughts, strategies, etc. Kinda like an immune system if you want. There's no one technically telling white cells to attack foreign bodies, it's all automated reactions coming from chain events.


Yeah, but he disappeared when she needed him. It's unclear whether Kerrigan intended her infested Terrans to have much potential leeway, but whether she did or not at the time is moot since you'd think that Duran being physically capable of leaving her without her being able to reign him back would force her to be a bit more restrictive in any future attempts to make infested terran slaves.

Yeah.. but like I said in that other thread, that's a complicated case. He shouldn't be able to disappear. But I get that she would have reservations in trying the same thing again with humans. Then again, having subordinates is a necessity (presumably) and there's no reason why the same thing couldn't happen to anything else in the swarm; cerebrates, brood mother, whatever.



(though this would be at odds with later retcons which establish Kerrigan as being of the Overmind's equal if not better considering she was to be the supposed successor of the Overmind anyway

By SC2 logic, that's debatable. But by BW logic, that's all unlikely. In fact, Kerrigan fears the new Overmind. Apparently she would be under his control iirc (or so she claims). Assuming that's true, that's an indication that he is more powerful than her in at least some ways otherwise she wouldn't be able to fall under his control again.


Duran states that this machine existed at the time the Confederacy was around and that it was known to disrupt Zerg signals even then

Ugh... more fanon: maybe it was able to disrupt the signals then but not intensively and definitely not permanently. Maybe the Overmind developed counter measures to this but did not pass down those powers to Kerri.


The Psi-disruptor is not about using Zergs to defeat Zergs per se. It's about breaking up their cohesion and military effectiveness by disrupting their hivemind communications. It would give the Protoss a significant tactical and strategic edge in future military engagements with the Zerg.

True true.. I would have to stick with the other explanation.

[Nissa]

Again if they watned th Hybrrid plot to be more of a focus they shouldn't have made it a "secret" optional mission.

Irrelevant. The hybrids weren't meant to be an option -- 1) the player choosing the existence of the hybrids versus 2) the player choosing the non-existence of the hybrids. The option was: 1) the player plays the ordinary campaign versus 2) the player plays well enough to discover that the hybrids exist. Now, if the choice had been arranged as one of a pair of exclusive story options (like choosing nukes vs battlecruisers in the UED missions or fighting the new Overmind vs just grabbing the khalis), then you would have a point. As is, it's not a matter of the hybrids existing or not existing, it's just a matter of whether the player learns of them.



Sure, but there are still limitations based on both real life logic and the level of disbelief one is expected to have and the internal logic of the series.

But I get what you mean, I just don't see any scenario from even a dream team of the best sci fi writers doing anything interesting with this plot, maybe that's just me.

It's just you...being worn down by the lameness that was SC2. I'll admit that the game frazzled my brain too, and as I sit here typing this, I can't myself think of how the hybrids would have made interesting. Heck, I've technically been at it for years. As a writer, I can come up with compelling hybrid stories. I just can't think of how that would translate into gameplay. In my head, the hybrids are either too powerful to combat, or remain a mystery for a sequel. Making them fit into the gameplay is the real challenge, especially since the Terrans are a political mess, the Protoss have been hit too hard, and the Zerg are still recovering from the deaths of the Overminds, cerebrates, and all the things Kerrigan used them to do in BW (I was never under the impression that the Zerg were "all powerful" in BW, primarily because their leadership mostly died off, and Kerrigan used manipulation of her enemies rather than her own power to win).

Just for fun, here's some options.
1. The hybrids are within the story campaign as NPCs and special characters, but have no player race. This was what we went with in Sons of War, the fan mod I participated in.
2. The hybrids get their own race, but this race is not playable, and the story provides for them to be defeated, probably through the use of khaydarins.
3. The hybrids get a playable race, as well as their own mission sets. They either remain a permanent race, or assimilate/absorb the Zerg. This is the most unlikely and difficult option, though it would be good if for some reason Blizz wanted to revamp the Zerg.
4. The hybrids are never properly awakened, because Zeratul figures out how to stop them. Like the light and dark sides of the Protoss come together and use the Khala/Void to poison the psychic link between the hybrids (which they have as an imitation of the Protoss' link).
5. The hybrids appear as a series of units, and are defeated by a triple team consisting of all the other races.
6. Hehehe...the hybrids win in the end. They destroy the Protoss, assimilate the Zerg, and decide to dominate/watch the humans until this unfamiliar race is no longer amusing to them.
7. The hybrids are the answer to the Zerg problem of not being able to infest Protoss, and they ultimately are a part of the Zerg faction.
8. The Protoss were never "failures" as they believed, but they were exactly as Duran meant them to be, and he is a rebel Xel'Naga who wanted to create hybrids as his gift to creation. In this scenario, Duran was responsible for using the Overmind to destroy the Xel'Naga, and wanted the Overmind to infest the Protoss. When this proved impossible, Duran, as a part of the Confederacy and using their tech, engineered the hybrids. The player must find the remnants of the Xel'Naga, who are the only ones who can truly defeat Duran.
9. The hybrids the player encounters are actually nice people who want to stop the Zerg, and don't agree with Duran's motives.
10. The hybrids are the Xel'Naga, reborn. They are not immediately antagonistic towards the other races, but see them as materials for experimentation. They therefore remain distant, but from time to time kidnap and steal anything/one that interests them.

Those are just some ideas. I find that writing down my ideas, however silly, helps me come up with better options in the end.

[Turalyon]

The way I imagined it, it would be different in the sense that there would be no sentience. The zergs would be biological automatons that act in unison due to how they're programmed. In contrast, the previous zerg swarm under the overmind had a sentient leader with sentient subordinates(cerebrates, overlords) that could devise thoughts, strategies, etc. Kinda like an immune system if you want. There's no one technically telling white cells to attack foreign bodies, it's all automated reactions coming from chain events.

Hmm. I'm wondering how this differentiates them from their current "feral" state though. The Zerg in their feral state are just doing what they're basically programmed to do as well by killing any opposition and/or consuming it for the sake of personal survival. The immune system analogy you've used would also indicate that "auto-immune responses" would also be common - in that the white cells (the Zerg) would not just be attacking foreign bodies (non-Zerg) but healthy, normal cells that are part of the organism (other Zerg/"Zerg friendly" structures) as well, just like what "feral" Zerg are doing anyway.


Yeah.. but like I said in that other thread, that's a complicated case. He shouldn't be able to disappear.

Well, the Overmind allowed Kerrigan free reign to do whatever she wanted, maybe Kerrigan felt that way with Duran as well. *Shrug*


But by BW logic, that's all unlikely.

I know, that's why I said the justification would work if we're to assume Kerrigan is lesser than the Overmind (as pre-Sc2 and pre-EU would imply).


Ugh... more fanon

I know. That's why the Psi-Disruptor plot-device sucks. It creates too many plot-holes and requires too much fanon to excuse.

[sandwich_bird]

Hmm. I'm wondering how this differentiates them from their current "feral" state though. The Zerg in their feral state are just doing what they're basically programmed to do as well by killing any opposition and/or consuming it for the sake of personal survival. The immune system analogy you've used would also indicate that "auto-immune responses" would also be common - in that the white cells (the Zerg) would not just be attacking foreign bodies (non-Zerg) but healthy, normal cells that are part of the organism (other Zerg/"Zerg friendly" structures) as well, just like what "feral" Zerg are doing anyway.


The critical difference is that the entirety of all feral zergs, as presented in SC2, don't have a working system that manifest a specific goal. The feral zergs in SC2 are like the Savannah for example. You'll have some herbivores banding together, some predators, etc but the totality of their actions don't result in accomplishing anything. In contrast, an immune system keeps a body alive. It's like ants but keep in mind that the queen doesn't actually rule; she just lays eggs.

[Turalyon]

^ How would you go with representing that idea though? Without using characters and there being no sapience, it would be difficult to convey this without resorting to straight exposition and even then the difference isn't overtly obvious enough from the "feral" state to be meaningful.

Speaking of Zerg "feralness", in BW, the Zerg are nowhere near the level of disorganised chaos as one would think since they have enough wherewithal to successfully invade and almost take over Shakuras. I'm guessing that cerebrates have some sort of stabilising influence akin to their role in manifesting a specific goal perhaps. I suppose then that the "feral" state of Zerg is still a little ill-defined given that they are seemingly more co-ordinated than we are lead to believe. I would've thought that actual feral Zerg, if left alone, would destroy themselves eventually but that is clearly not the case.

[sandwich_bird]

I'd see it more as an intrigue that slowly uncovers itself rather than a straight up exposition. Since there are no characters in that swarm to interact with, you have to rely on other characters affected by the change. They(don't know who, just talking ideas here) would first notice some strange behavior from the feral zergs. For example, a pack of feral zergling who are usually competitor with feral mutalisks for preys in the region started working together. Then they start mounting complex attacks that go beyond what you'd see with wild life; almost like there was a mind orchestrating it all. So they (again, don't know who) start suspecting involvement of a rogue cerebrates or something like that. But, surprise, when they launch a raid in the zergs primary lair(the likely location of the cerebrate), there is no leader; they get screwed over massively and start understanding.

A bit of a rough idea but you get the gist of it. That would be a hard sell in SC3 because of the new definition of essence and all that garbage but it could work in an alternate sc2. Speaking of sc3, I'd bring back the overmind like we talked about before this way I think since it doesn't matter what the hell happens anyway. I'm really digging the idea of an immortal overmind after our discussion :p



Speaking of Zerg "feralness", in BW, the Zerg are nowhere near the level of disorganised chaos as one would think since they have enough wherewithal to successfully invade and almost take over Shakuras. I'm guessing that cerebrates have some sort of stabilising influence akin to their role in manifesting a specific goal perhaps. I suppose then that the "feral" state of Zerg is still a little ill-defined given that they are seemingly more co-ordinated than we are lead to believe. I would've thought that actual feral Zerg, if left alone, would destroy themselves eventually but that is clearly not the case.

Were those ferals or were they led by Kerrigan/rogue cerebrates? Was that ever confirmed in the game? I don't remember

[Turalyon]

I'd see it more as an intrigue that slowly uncovers itself rather than a straight up exposition. Since there are no characters in that swarm to interact with, you have to rely on other characters affected by the change. They(don't know who, just talking ideas here) would first notice some strange behavior from the feral zergs. For example, a pack of feral zergling who are usually competitor with feral mutalisks for preys in the region started working together. Then they start mounting complex attacks that go beyond what you'd see with wild life; almost like there was a mind orchestrating it all. So they (again, don't know who) start suspecting involvement of a rogue cerebrates or something like that. But, surprise, when they launch a raid in the zergs primary lair(the likely location of the cerebrate), there is no leader; they get screwed over massively and start understanding.

That's actually not a bad story concept for a Terran perspective. Would be a difficult concept to form a Zerg campaign/story/perspective from though.


I'd bring back the overmind like we talked about before this way I think since it doesn't matter what the hell happens anyway. I'm really digging the idea of an immortal overmind after our discussion :p

You mean, like as if it never actually died on Aiur? I would've preferred that particular way occurring in an alternate take on BW but I'm not so sure how well it would go for a SC3. I mean, we've already had the Overmind coming back once in BW and then other supposed dead characters coming back in Sc2, so I'm not sure that dipping into that well of bringing back old well-liked characters/enemies again (like the UED and Overmind) would have the intended effect of bettering the story as one might think. I'm sure it will be very nostalgic but at this point, something like this would probably signal to me that Sc is well and truly bereft of ideas and infected by sequelitis more than anything else.


Were those ferals or were they led by Kerrigan/rogue cerebrates? Was that ever confirmed in the game? I don't remember

Your guess is as good as mine. "Feral Zerg" is an ill-defined term like I said. I would've thought any Zerg without the Overmind would be considered "feral", but I'm definitely wrong on that matter I think. In that case, if we consider Zerg to be either under cerebrate or Kerrigan's control to be "not feral", as it seemed to be in BW, then who's to say that the Zerg were ever "feral" at all after the Overmind was killed?