Starcraft reboot ideas discussion thread [Archive]

Mislagnissa

11-16-2017, 02:25 PM

I am copypasting the timeline of the proposal linked in my sig. Read and critique if you like.

Current Plans of the Timeline (Zerg (Pre-Great War to Brood War))
As there are to be many changes for Starcraft and all that happens, the Zerg will be receiving changes that will require noting, as much as many other things for the Zerg.
- The Pre-Great War: The Zerg, taking a 60 year track across space to reach the Terrans, send out their Vanguard to attack the outer rims of Terran Space, first attacking independent settlers and one of the three powerhouses of the Korpulu Sector, the Kel-Morian Combine.
o The Vanguard Broods will be sent for the sole purpose of conquering the lesser Terrans, in order to break a path for the entire swarm to attack the more powerful Confederacy and Umojans.
o The Vanguard Brood is assigned to harvest the psionic mutants that are within the Independent and Kel-Morian settlements, in order to keep them for the Overminds Great Plan.
o The Vanguard Brood will be dealing with the Kel-Morians as the main enemy during the early ages of Pre-Great War.
o The Vanguard Brood will be facing against the Confederacy during the late stages of the Pre-Great War, with both the Confederacy and the Umojans trying to study and exterminate the Zerg forces that are coming closer to their space.
o The Vanguard Brood will be facing against large amounts of nuclear weaponry and battlecruiser fleets, when facing against the Confederacy.
o The Vanguard will have an incident where the Confederacy try to control/destroy the Cerebrates that lead the Broods, when exterminating the Broods don’t work.
o The Vanguard have some of the minions taken by the Confederacy and the Umojans for their experimentations.
o The Vanguard will cause the breakdown of many of the Kel-Morian Combine, causing many of the mining colonies to break down, while the few that survive are either infested or psionic terrans held captive.
o At the end of the Pre-Great Wars, the Protoss will come in full force, with different portions of the Korpulu Expeditionary Force sent to stop the Vanguard from moving any farther.
The Protoss fail to stop the Zerg with traditional combat; resorts on exterminating infested worlds with purification.
o The Great War starts, when the first purified world, Chau Sara, causing the citizens of the Confederacy to first note the presence of the alien menace… though the first alien menace they see are the Protoss, not the Zerg.
o The Start of the Great War marks the move from the Kel-Morians by the Vanguard, to the full might of the Zerg Swarm reaching the rest.

- The Great War: The Zerg will begin to send the rest of its great, mighty broods to be attacking the remaining Terran Worlds of the Confederacy, the Umojans, and what is left of the Kel-Morians. This will result with much of the Protoss sending their forces to purify planets held by the Zerg, causing the Terrans to have a great amount of fear and terror in their hearts and minds.
o The Primary Assault Broods are tasked to attacking the Confederacy and the Umojans, while the Vanguard Brood that came before hunts down the rest of the outer Terran Worlds, including the rest of the Kel-Morians
o The Protoss begin to try and purify the worlds that have a hint of the Zerg taking hold, in order to prevent the Terrans from being infested and/or assimilated.
o Much of the Terrans, both the Umojans and the Confederacy, will try to use their research on the Zerg in order to prevent their extinction.
The Umojans will use their study of the Zerg’s biology in order to make new countermeasures with their weaponry, as well as try to harness the biology to make their own tools and weapons to combat the Zerg.
The Umojans will also be assisting the Kel-Morians and other Independent Colonists, pumping their resources in order to help unify the few Terrans that are vulnerable to deal with the greater threat.
The Confederacy will by using their Psionic Study of the Zerg, especially their research on the Hivemind, in order to take advantage of the Zerg and use them to their advantage, as well as weaken them.
The Confederacy will try to draw the Zerg away to the Umojans and their other enemies, while using their technology to weaken the Zerg and decimate them.
o The Zerg continue to lay waste upon the Terrans, facing off against the Three Powerhouses until Tarsonis.
The Zerg are called upon to the planet Tarsonis by a large amount of Psionic Emission across space; before that, the planets Mars Sara, Chau Sara, and Antiga Prime.
The Zerg are given quite a bit of trouble with the Confederacy using their arm of Psionic weaponry in order to slow down the assault of the Zerg, along with nuclear fire and battlecruiser bombardment.
Most of the worlds decimated by the Confederacy end with Purification.
o The Zergs begin to move away from the Terrans, after the fall of Tarsonis.
Many of the Zerg leave, due to collecting an abundance of Psionic Mutants from the Korpulu Sector and other places ruled by the Terrans.

The Zerg depart to a few key worlds, including Char, in order to begin the process of assimilation without trouble.
The Zerg begin to exterminate the rest of the Terrans with the remaining Vanguard and a few Primary Assault Broods.
The Process of Extermination and Assimilation upon the Terrans have begun to commence.
o The Dominion rises from the ashes of Tarsonis, uniting not only the remnants of the Confederacy, but also the Kel-Morians and the Umojans, in order to fight the dangerous Zerg.
The Dominion unify the Umojans and the Kel-Morians, in order to break the Zerg back from the planets being raid
The Unity of the Terrans causes a push back towards the Zergs, allowing some victories to rise that includes the decimation of Brood Forces that were left there to exterminate the Terrans, and harvest the Psionic Mutants.
The Dominion is led by Arcturus Mengsk, with the second command being Edmund Duke and other leaders of the Confederate Squadrons being underneath him.
The Dominion uses the unity of the Terrans, along with the ideals of nuclear fire and large amounts of battlecruiser fleets, to break the Zerg.
The Dominion try to scavenge the remaining remnants of the Confederacy research, while receiving ‘all’ of the research the Umojans hold.
• The Umojans secretly compete with the Dominion to scavenge the remnants of the Confederacy’s research on the Zerg, although not officially.
The Unity of the Terrans lasts until the end of the Great War, during that time Mengsk leads the people against the alien menace of both the Protoss and the Zerg, while enforcing Dominion rule upon other Terrans.
o The Zerg begin the assimilation process of the Terrans, on Char and other planets, led by both the Overmind and his most trusted of Cerebrates for the task.
Due to the lack of psionic prowess the Terrans have in comparison to the Protoss, the Overmind plans on the concept of shared psionic connection, to battle against the Protoss.
• Many of the assimilated Psionics begin to be placed in a black crystal-like substance that holds their brain and nerves, with many modified organs and tissue inside.

• Many of these Psionics are each connected with other Assimilated Psionics in their crystal-like bodies, allowing them to connect their psionic brains together to become a stronger foe.
• This form of Assimilation, the Conexus, number in the dozens, with the Overmind beginning to try to allow production of these creatures with Drones.
• Many of these Conexus are the cause of beaconing the Protoss, which leads to the two alien races, as before in the Pre-Great War, begin to fight each other in armed combat.
Along with the completion of the Conexus, a new breed of Zerg, called the Commisceo, is born from the properties of physically merging the brains of other Psionics together into one brain.
• Causes the formation of giant brain-like entities that have the ability to tear apart others.
• Due to the massive size of this creature, and the faults of massive biological change that merges such together, the giant brain mass is designed to be great enough to decimate forces.
• Due to its massive size, the creature is designed to take much longer to construct, with the promise of ultimate power in return.
• Many aspects of it, including its raw power of psionics, is promising, however its high expense in itself to control it has often made the Overmind question whether the creature itself is a possible candidate.
Finally, with the Commisceo and the Conexus, the third form of Assimilated, the Pararius, is to design Terran Psionics into a formidable fighting force, giving them a similar ideal of a Zealot.
• Due to the Psionic Terrans not even reaching such potential, these Agents are able to unite their minds similar to the Khalai and the Conexus, allowing them to function together.
• The Pararius are able to use their psionics to heighten their senses and stimulate their motor functions, allowing them to use their psionics to allow proper coordination and premonition.
• The Pararius is given changes to the legs and arms in order to be able to fight in combat, as well as given other additions as well.
• The Pararius failed as an attempt for assimilation, due to the psionics being incapable of dealing with zealots in an equivalent battlefield, despite their high numbers, making the Overmind see

them as worthless if they could not fight against the enemy they were designed to face.
• The Pararius was reworked a second time to have a new body that would combat the Zealots; this new form was more powerful than the old Pararius Strain, and was capable of meeting a Zealot and killing it with minimum damage.
• The Pararius was about to become distributed across the Broods as a basis unit during the end of the Great War.
The many different assimilated survive towards the end of the Great War.
o As the Great War continued on, the first Cerebrate to fall, Zasz, showcases the location of the Protoss and their most current history and present, giving the Overmind insight of what is happening.
The Overmind, paused for a while after the attack on the hive, begins to send its experimented terrans upon the Protoss, to remove the combined forces of the Dark Templar and the Khalai.
Many of the Cerebrates start to leave the hive planets, with the Overmind commanding each and every brood towards different locations of Protoss space, owned by both the Dark Templar and the Khalai.
• The majority of the most powerful Zerg Broods are sent to go after the homeworld of the Khalai, Aiur, in order to make an establishment for the Overmind.
• Many of the specialist broods that were designed specifically for the Protoss begin to build up their size, with the guardian broods sent to the Dark Templar-specific planets, as well as the ones on Char and the other Hive Planets, while the ones designed to manipulate Khaydarin Technology are sent to planets held by the Khalai.
o The Broods that are sent to the Dark Templar are given a large abundance of the Assimilated Terrans to fight against the Cerebrate killers, with the Guardian Broods designed to specifically defend against the Dark Templar that threaten the Cerebrates.
o The Broods that are sent to go after the Khaydarin crystals are designed to help give the Protoss the Psionic edge, by collecting and using them to be assimilated by both the Cerebrates and the Overmind to become more powerful, while causing a rupture in the Protoss Tech to make it turn against them.

• The Broods begin to play their roles in exterminating the Protoss race, tearing apart the Billions that impact the Protoss more than the Terrans ever could have witnessed.
• The Overmind settles upon Aiur, upon the first place the Xel’Naga laid beforehand, carrying a few Khaydarin Crystals to allow the Overmind to nestle upon Aiur’s surface.
o The Protoss and the Zerg begin a full on war against each other, while the Terrans are left to deal with some of the few remaining Zerg Broods left to take care of them; this leads to the Terrans having a long war against the Zerg, while also dealing with your own civil issues.
The Umojans go into a covert civil war against the Dominion, both for the Dominion’s ruthless and similar ideals to the Confederacy, and the Dominion’s role on using the Psi Emitters to direct the Zerg to Tarsonis.
The Dominion are notified that these covert civil wars are done by pirates and raiders, such as Raynor’s Raiders, however some suspect that the Umojans are behind it.
The Umojans are threatened by the Dominion by the accusation of being a threat to the Dominion, while also not giving their advanced technology and the necessary research on the Zerg to the Dominion.
The Zerg have caused a great amount of stress to the Terrans, however a good amount of Broods that are left to take care of the Terrans are beginning to cause entrenchments and stalemates in some planets, while others are taking a slow process for some of the Zerg to deal with the Terrans on other worlds
• The War on the Terrans is slowing down.
o During the Great War against the Protoss, the Zerg begin to deal with the loss of Cerebrates both against the Dark Templar they invaded and the ones on Char and other Hive Planets
The Zerg begin to deal with a good amount of Feral Zerg during the process, dealing with the many different chaotic situations that are caused due to the loss of a Brood’s Cerebrate.
The Zerg begin to try and hunt down the remaining protoss on the Hive Worlds, which have lead the Protoss to resort into hiding in the shadows.
Many of the Dark Templar that are fighting against the Zerg on their own worlds and locations cause the Dark Templar and Zerg to reach a massive scaled war that pushes them towards the concept of fleeing with their lives, or hiding.

Many of the Feral Zerg on both of these worlds are often immediately exterminated by fellow Broods nearby.
This often leads the Overmind to compensate with the losses, by creating new Broods on the planet Aiur and sending them to either new Hive Worlds to build them up for full strength, or in rare occasions be sent off to battle shortly after birth.
o The Protoss, after a long civil war between themselves, has a short unity between the Dark Templar and the Khalai’s Templar, killing off a few Cerebrates on Aiur and other planets in order to cripple the Overmind
Zeratul and Tassadar splinter into two hunting groups, leading a group of Templar from both cultures to terminate a large selection of Cerebrates.
Meeting against great resilience, the Zerg begin to find many of their Broods to be rapidly depleting more than the Overmind can handle, causing a long coma-like state occur afterwards.
In response, a quick unity of Tassadar and Zeratul’s forces sends an attack upon the Overmind, leading to many Protoss dying in the process due to the massive amounts of Broods around the Overmind.
• After both sides take heavy casualties, the Zerg seem to have the upper hand; in response, the Dark Templar, Zeratul, sends himself and a squad of Dark Templar to execute the Overmind, making sure that the form the Overmind takes collapses.
The End of the Great War marks when Zeratul sacrifices himself, and exterminates the Overmind, with Zeratul dying due to the Zerg ripping them to shreds.
- The Brood War: The Great War ends with the death of the Overmind; large amounts of Broods begin to go haywire due to the Will that unified all of them dying, causing the Zerg to go into a massive rampage than not only tears itself apart, but in great fury begin to do greater damage to both the Terrans and the Protoss in response.
o The Broods by the Terrans begin to go into a massive rampage, where they begin to tear apart each other, causing a few of the Broods in the Korpulu Sector to die.
Many of the Broods that went Psycho stabilize the quickest out of all the Zerg, due to the presence of other Cerebrate’s and the broadcast of the Overmind being farther from where the Korpulu Broods were.
The Broods begin to reach a state in which the Extermination of the Terrans become a top priority, causing the Broods to evolve and become even more dangerous.

• The Mutation of the Broods causes issues in the mutated broods, with many of them require massive amount of changes in order to compensate what they seek to accomplish.
Many of the Broods left to face the Terrans after the whiplash of the fallen will begin to tear about the Terrans even more, due to the Umojans beginning an open revolt against the Dominion to take place as the dominant power.
The Later stages of the Umojans taking hold of the Dominion as the rulers, instead of Mengsk, will cause Mengsk to depart and leave much of what he made, while the Umojans rule and begin the process and converting the Broods that are attacking the Terrans to become the first Zerg that become part of the Umojan’s ruling Dominion.
• As the Umojans begin to rule the Dominion as the No. 1 powerhouse, a former Confederate Marshal, Jim Raynor of the Raynor’s Raiders, begin to help lead the new Dominion.
o The Broods that were facing against the Dark Templar begin to fall apart the hardest, with the Dark Templar taking advantage of this and killing off many of the Broods before the Broods have a chance to kill each other off.
The Dark Templar begin to attack the Cerebrates that are going Haywire from the Overmind’s death, and making many of the Zerg become Feral.
Many of the Dark Templar are not sure as to why many of the Zerg have come in the first place, and are surprised when they see the Zerg begin to fall down into chaos
• This causes many of the Dark Templar to meet up with each other, to discuss the issue and form an expeditionary force to find the cause and origins of the Zerg that have come to attack her.
Many of the Broods fall into a Feral-Like state, leaving many Dark Templar to begin to study the Zerg while a fleet is formed to look at where the Zerg came from.
• The Dark Templar begin to use their Argus Crystals and their current technology in order to study the enemy that began their invasion against them.
• The discovery of the Assimilated Terrans and the Cerebrates having elements of Psionic Prowess.
The Broods that are still functioning and pull themselves back together after the whiplash begin to pull forward, and pull back towards places where the Broods can hide and build up their forces, in order to deal with their serious threat.

o The Cerebrates on the Hive Worlds get a large amount of civil war on their worlds, with little to no issue with the Protoss that are left on their worlds.
Many of the Cerebrates begin to have civil wars in order to find the new ruler of the Swarm, with many of them fighting against each other due to the different personalities that befall them.
The Zerg Broods on the Hive Worlds are noted to be left alone by both Terrans and Protoss during the early stages of the Brood War, however meet large issue when the Umojans begin to build up their Dominion, taking the Zerg from the Hives in order to increase their forces.
o The Broods of Aiur and other Khalai Worlds have the greatest of consequences, due to them feeling the death of the Overmind greater than any other Brood in the Milky Way Galaxy.
The Cerebrates that were closest to the Overmind had the worst of it, reaching towards a mental insanity that causes their Broods to malfunction.
Many of the Cerebrates that are farther away are changed dramatically by the Overmind’s death, although do not reach the same level of insanity as the closer ones have taken
• Many of the Broods that were safe from being broken down began to have a rapid personality change within the Cerebrates, due to the impact of the Overmind’s final moments and its state during its death by Zeratul and his comrades left a permanent mark that cause the Cerebrates to transform into something altogether.
The Broods that are on the other worlds held by the Khalai begin to follow their last objective that was set upon to them, to exterminate the Khalai Protoss and make way for the Assimilation of the Protoss.
o Many of the Feral Broods are often led by many different Aged Overlords that cause small pockets of Hives to arise, making different Hives able to survive for a short amount of time; the use of Assimilated also causes the consequences of the Feral Assimilated on planets such as Aiur and other Protoss-held worlds to become a major issue for everyone.
Many of the Aged Overlords begin to try and survive against everything around them, from the Feral Zerg to the Sane and Insane Zerg.
Many also have to try and survive against the Protoss and the Terrans for the most part, due to them often being around during their fall.
The Assimilated Terrans that have become Feral, due to the lack of Cerebrates, have begun a severe amount of rampage across the worlds they inhabit, leading to many psionic storms that cause strife for all life.

• The Conexus start to unite together in order to bring down their enemies, using the feral zergs and making an army of both themselves and the minions that they assisted before.
o They begin to control many of the hives that had been lead by a Brood’s Cerebrate and its Overlords, beginning a vast extermination of the Remaining Overlords.
Many of the taken hives start to build more Conexus, in order to increase their prowess.
o The Conexus begin to build their numbers in order to lead the many hives, using their combined might to lead their own Broods alone.
• The Commisceo have begun to use their giant minds to begin to build up the feral Zerg, and begun a war with the remaining Broods led by the Cerebrates.
o The Commisceo use their psionic superiority in order to deal with the Cerebrate’s superiority in numbers and wisdom.
o The Commisceo begin to think for themselves quite easily, due to their form being completely a sentient brain.
o The Commisceo begin to try and take many of the fallen hives and build their own Broods.
o These Feral Commisceos are beginning to build Feral Broods and Hives into functional Broods once more given to their image.
o The Zerg begin to fold into many different individual factions, with many of them warring to see what shall be the new Will of the swarm.
o The amount of Civil War amongst the Zerg partially halts for most of them, due to the threats of the other races, both the Terrans and the Protoss, which the Zerg deem a necessity in order to defend themselves first, before they continue their civil battles for dominance over the entire race.
o The Brood Wars end with many of the Zerg decimating the Terrans that have tried to control them, along with many of them beginning to create a new Overmind that has begun to embody the swarm.

Things to Note within Terran History
Pre-Great War – The Arrival of the Zerg, to the Fall of Chau Sara
- The Terran Kel-Morians and Independent Colonies are Invaded by Zerg

o The Kel-Morians use their large amount of Mines and Goliaths to push the Vanguard Broods, with mostly loses.
o The Independent Colonies use basic weaponry in order to defend themselves, although unlike the Kel-Morians fall easier.
o Many of the colonies try to flee to other worlds, though the Vanguard Broods stop them with large amounts of mutalisks and/or scourge.
- The Umojan’s and Confederacy’s covert scientists and military are experimenting on the Zerg that they have.
o The Confederacy have been taking the Zerg in order to study the Zerg’s Hivemind mentality, as well as their link towards Psionic Potentials.
o The Umojans have been experimenting on the Zerg to study their biology, in order to understand the enemy threat and take measures to eliminate them.
- The Umojans have been funding Kel-Morian and Independent Colonies with Umojan resources, offering them military technology and even men in order to deal with the Zerg Threat.
o Many of the forces often have allied Umojan Forces that usually use their ground forces to decimate the Zerg as much as possible.
o The Umojans try to use their cancerous experiments in order to damage the Zerg, cripple them with diseases within the Broods.
- The Confederacy has been making sure that all information of the Zerg has been shut down, in order to keep the Alien Species quiet, as well as blocking and Terrans from trying to spread this information.
o The Confederacy has been decimating Terran Colony Fleets that have been trying to flee from the Zerg.
o The Confederacy has been decimating large amounts of Zerg Forces with the full force of their squadrons they send to take care of them.
o Many of the Confederacy has been sent to test the might of the swarm, as well as trying to find ways to cripple and decimate them, if they cannot use them.
- The Three Factions fighting the Zerg during the Pre-Great War are usually hidden from most Terrans across the Korpulu Sector, until the fall of Chau Sara
o Chau Sara was incinerated by a large fleet of an alien force, which has not been identified as anything both the Protoss. With the Protoss incinerating Chau Sara, the Terrans are now aware of the Protoss Threat.
The Kel-Morians are still dealing with the Vanguard Broods, which they have begun to supply their colonies with more Military Technology, although restrained from giving all to them due to the Confederacy.

• The Kel-Morian Colonies are given Reaper and Vindicators to deal with the Zerg Threat, along with pulling their Jolly Rogers in order to assist.
The Umojan Colonies are beginning to get touched by the Zerg, which the Umojans are now forced to bring out their military to take care of the alien menace.
• Many of the Umojan Colonies are given all the required factory tech in order to deal with the Zerg, as well as the basics of Barracks tech
• The Umojan Protectorate has begun to send its own military forces to deal with the Zerg Threat, beginning to send their military might to decimate the Swarm.
The Confederacy has begun to send all of its Squadrons to protect the Core Worlds, while decimating the Zerg on Fringe Worlds.
• The Confederate Fringe Worlds have many of its colonies left for dead against the Zerg.
• The Confederate Fringe Worlds have often times been experiments to things such as the Psi Emitter, in order to practise using the Zerg.
The Sons of Korhal save a few colonial forces, and begins its operation for the great plan to remove the Confederacy for good.
• The Sons of Korhal obtains the Psi Emitter, and uses in on Antiga Prime and Tarsonis to send the Zerg Forces against the Confederacy.
The Zerg keeps sending its might against the Terrans, with many of the Broods Decimating the Terran Worlds until, finally, the Fall of Tarsonis happens, and billions die at once due to the Zerg.
• The Sons of Korhal set up the Psi Emitters on Tarsonis and its Space Platforms.
• The Protoss try to save the Confederacy, yet the Sons of Korhal fight against the Protoss long enough for the Zerg to attack with full force.
• The Confederate Citizens that have been split away from the Squadrons are left defending themselves against the Zerg.
o The Dominion, formerly the Sons of Korhal, begins to decimate the remaining Confederate loyalists, and begin to unite the Confederate Remnants into their fold in order to take control of the Korpulu Sector.
Arcturus Mengsk crowns himself as the new Emperor, and begins to remove the few oppositions left and bring the rest under his wing.

The Kel-Morians agree to join the Dominion by donating resources for the exchange of military assistance against the Zerg.
• The Kel-Morians begin to rise as a military force, after the fall of the Confederacy, and has begun to release their fleet against the Zerg.
• The Kel-Morians fight against the Zerg with Dominion Forces.
The Umojans are forced to join the Dominion with the threat of decimation, with the Dominion forcefully taking their colonies.
• The Umojans begin to donate their technology and military service to the Dominion, in order to fight the Zerg.
o The Dominion fights against the remaining Zerg Broods that have been left to exterminate the Terran Race as a whole.
The Few Confederate Opposition and other rebel groups, such as Raynor’s Raiders, are still a prominent threat for the Dominion.
- The Overmind dies, leading to the Broods fighting against each other, as well as the rise of Feral Zerg becoming an uncommon, to common sight.
o The Umojans take the opportunity to take rise.
They begin to release and in script military forces of the Dominion into their own, taking Braxis and Dylar IX from the Dominion.
The Umojans begin to combine their research and the Confederacy’s in order to enslave the Zerg and use them for their arsenal.
The Umojans begin to attack Korhal IV, after bringing many into their fold, and attack Korhal IV headfirst to take the Emperor, Arcturus.
o Emperor Mengsk flees in his battlecruiser with a few loyalists, leaving the Terran Dominion under the hands of the Umojan Protectorate.
The Kel-Morians and the Confederates that were under the Dominion are now loyal to the Umojan Protectorate.
o The Umojan Protectorate enslaves a large amount of the Zerg within Terran Space, and has begun to remove the Zerg from Terran Space.
The Umojans have begun to use the Zerg in order to secure the Terrans.
Many of the Terrans are concerned about the use of Zerg being used by anyone as a military asset.
Civil Uprises begin to start between Xenophobics, Dominion Loyalists, and Concerned Citizens.

• Umojans began to lose many supporters, after the Zerg become less of a threat.
o A Civil War begins between the Terrans, with the Dominion, Confederacy, and Umojans being at each other’s throats, as well as their royalists. Much of the Independent and Kel-Morian colonies stay away from the impact.
- The Brood Wars end with the Terrans having a civil strife amongst each other, with the Zerg beginning to heal themselves and getting ready to react the their brethren’s enslavement.

Mislagnissa

11-16-2017, 02:32 PM

Here's the tl;dr for the Zerg. It includes their interactions with Terrans and Protoss as well.

TL;DR Zerg (Things to Note)
- There will be no Kerrigan: The Zerg will have alternatives to Kerrigan, which are the Assimilated Terrans listed. The Reason for Kerrigan being removed, is due to many reasons: A) Kerrigan lacks a character that is stable, and changes entirely to whatever is desired for the writers, and lacks a stable character. B) Infested Kerrigan has showcased a de-evolution to the qualities of the Zerg Race in many ways, with Brood War Kerrigan and onwards be only worthwhile due to ‘invisible armour’ that makes everyone else worthless, and makes her greater (somehow). With these two reasons, the other reason is due to the story being mostly focused on a large abundance of characters, and Kerrigan along with other characters being overly focused to the point she has become, personally, not worthwhile.
- The Zerg will be the Main Antagonist Throughout: Although the Zerg will be splintered and decimated due to the loss of the Overmind, the Zerg will continue to be the bane of all other life, and will be the primary antagonist of both the Protoss and the Terrans. In many scenarios, the Zerg will be an all-hated enemy of both the Terrans and the Protoss, and will continue to be a devastating enemy that has broken the two races with the promise of extinction.
- The Zerg Protagonists in stories will all by Cerebrates: While the Zerg will be a primary race from beginning to end, the Zerg will all of the played characters being Cerebrates. While there will be other characters of the Swarm, including the Overmind and some of the Assimilated Terrans that will be looked upon during dialogues and briefings, the character will always be a Cerebrate when playing as a Zerg.
- There will be no Duran and no Hybrids: Although it was introduced in Dark Origins, and was poorly executed in the sequels afterwards, both Duran and the Hybrids will be avoided entirely.
- The Xel’Naga, along with the Pre-Aeon Protoss, will be Secondary, Distant Story Elements: Although the Xel’Naga and anything attached to them, including Duran, the Hybrids, and their ruins have been overused in many Starcraft Stories, both in games and other media, the Xel’Naga will not be overly looked as they have before, with most of the campaigns that do have any significance of the Xel’Naga being a ‘mention’, nothing more. There will be ruins and so forth of the Xel’Naga that will be explored, but they will be rare. The Pre-Aeon Protoss will be also explored, as they were avoided and retconned by Blizzard to be non-existent. During the invasion of Aiur, the Zerg will explore many of these ruins in order to harvest and use the powers of old to topple of Khala Protoss.
- The Process of Assimilation and Infestation will be explored: As the process of Assimilation has not been looked upon properly, this story will look upon the process of Assimilation, with the first examples of Assimilation being the Assimilated Terrans, which the campaigns will show the Process how Psionic Terrans are processed, changed, and become part of the Swarm.
- Many aspects of the Zerg Units will Change: Many of the Units of the Zerg Units and Structures will have new introductions and changes in order to make the Zerg something new when played upon:
o The Queens will remove the role of a simple caster, and become the Zerg’s Equivalence of a Reaver or Carrier, which the Queen harvests Parasites and uses them on the battle like a Reaver builds Scarabs and launches them.
o The Defiler’s Casting will change to have many spells that reflect what a hive can build, able to cast spells depending on what a Larvae can morph into.
o The Mutalisk and the Hydralisk will both have mutations; the Mutalisk was designed to have an aspect of it changing to deal with certain situations, which the Mutalisk will continue with the addition of two new morphs it can become. The Hydralisk will also have an additional two new morphs that are similar to the Lurker.
o The Overlord will be the only unit that has detection, other than the Overmind and the Cerebrates themselves, along with possibly some of the structures that are Assimilated Terrans. That and the addition of new roles for the Overlords is meant to make the Overlord a wanted unit for a Zerg Commander.
o The Cerebrates are given the ability to use powers and, possibly, move, in order to explore the Psionics that the Cerebrates have, as well as their mastery of bio-engineering and manipulation.
o The Creep Colonies will have many different structures available to be built, other than the Sunken Colony and Spore Colony.
o New Units that are able to be built from hives include the Scyllisk and the Stactlisk.
- The Aspect of Broods and their Roles will be Explored: As Broods have been explored and dropped in Starcraft due to the creators of the concept not giving a damn, the Broods and its different roles will contribute to the story of Starcraft.
- The Brood War: The Entirety of the Brood War will play out differently, with there being many different Zerg Broods fighting amongst each other for power. This is due to the Cerebrates being designed to have different personalities that other Cerebrates may or may not like/agree with, however disputes were not taken towards civil war due to the Will uniting them. With the Will that uniting them broken, as well as the concept of Feral Zerg and the whiplash of the Will’s Death affecting many of the Broods causing a concept of Strife for the Zerg that threatens strife within the Swarm as a whole, causing different Swarms to arise.
- The Pre-Great War: Due to there being hints of the Zerg making contact with the Zerg both in the original Starcraft and the Books about Mengsk, the concept of the Zerg interacting with the Terrans a year before the Great War will be explored.
- Replacement of the Renegade: While Kerrigan was the Renegade Zerg that was the primary antagonist, or protagonist, in Brood War’s campaign, Kerrigan will be replaced with the Assimilated Terrans taking hold of the Broods that have lost their Cerebrates, using their psionics in order to rebuild the Brood under their power. Aged Overlords will also be a concept, however they are unable able to run a small hive, being extremely weak in comparison to a Brood.
- The Interactions with the Terrans: The Zerg will be explored by both the Confederacy and the Umojans during the Pre-Great War and the first parts of the Great War, with the Confederacy exploring the Zerg’s Psionic Hivemind, and the Umojans studying the Zerg’s Biological Assets. This will contribute in the rise of the Dominion, later the Umojans, using the Zerg to their advantage.
o The Confederacy will be taking the Psionic Studies to influence the production of Psi Emitters, Psi Disruptors, and other technology in order to be used against the Zerg, later to be taken by the Dominion and the Umojans.
o The Umojans will be using the Zerg to create new anti-zerg weaponry, along with planning on using Zerg, even Zerg-Like Bio-Engineered Weapons, in order to battle against the Zerg and other enemies.
The Dominion will be trying to run its own program to follow what the Confederacy had left off, however due to the decimation of many scientists and research facilities, the Dominion have to find and collect the scraps and build up once more.
- The Protoss and the Zerg: Although the Zerg will make little to no interaction with the Protoss until the stage of the Great War where the Psionic Terrans begin to be assimilated, the Protoss and the Zerg will become a primary aspect of war, where the tides of Terrans and Zerg being the primary conflict at the start will shift to the Protoss being the Zerg’s target of extermination and assimilation next. This will continue until the end of the Great War, where Zerg will begin to make conflict with all three races, including itself.
o The Zerg will be attacking planets that are held by the Khala, in order to exterminate the race and collect as many Khaydarin Crystals to help the process of Assimilation for the Protoss.
o The Zerg will be attacking the Dark Templar, hunting down as many as possible with its devastating Broods in order to remove the threat of the Dark Templar and the potential harm it can do to the Swarm.
o The Zerg will be attacking Aiur as the primary base of operations after Char and the other Hive Worlds, to plan and start the Assimilation Process of the Protoss by first attacking the Khala that unites them.
o The Zerg will be exploring planets that once held the Pre-Aeon Protoss, finding their ruins in order to help their progress into assimilating the Protoss, and their extermination of independence from the Swarm.
- The Conflict of the Zerg in the Brood Wars will be the primary plot during that Time: Many of the different Broods trying to assert power and become the dominant Will, will be the plot of the Zerg during the Brood Wars.

Turalyon

11-17-2017, 12:20 PM

Mislagnissa

11-17-2017, 03:34 PM

I see a lot of Zerg stuff, only some Terran stuff but no Protoss.

The Protoss hardly had a significant role in BW, much in a similar way like the Terrans were in Sc1, yet you haven't addressed that here in this rework of BW.

I did not write this. I copied a timeline and an abridged summary from a forum thread, later compiled in a 150 page document, by ToxicDefiler. It is far too large to repost here, so please read it. It reworks both SC1 and BW, as explained in the first quote. The timeline and zerg summary I quoted already give a synopsis of the Protoss changes. It explains that they have a huge empire of countless worlds, which the Zerg invade for a variety of purposes. If you are having difficulty finding the answer to your question, try reading the quotes or using the find function on your browser. The full thread/document spends dozens of pages on detailing the cultures and tech trees of all three races. If you are still having trouble finding an answer to your question, you can find the links in my signature. If reading the text still does not answer your question, please contact ToxicDefiler and ask him to send you a new copy. If you are still unable to find an answer pouring through all 150 pages, please contact your eye doctor as I fear you may be losing your eyesight.

Mislagnissa

11-17-2017, 03:55 PM

I will be making a brief analysis of my own in the near future. In the mean time, I suggest reading the materials that are linked in my signature.

sandwich_bird

11-17-2017, 04:33 PM

Gradius

11-17-2017, 05:24 PM

Yeah at this point, better to just make a completely new universe/IP.

Mislagnissa

11-17-2017, 07:18 PM

Jesus, that amount of work... impressive. But, imo it's very unnecessary. I personally don't want a complete rewrite of SC or BW and I can't see many fans willingly going along with your bible. The changes are just way too drastic. For example, I get you're not a fan of episode 2 and everything related to Kerrigan but, like it or not, she's an icon of stracraft. You remove her and you're not rebooting starcraft anymore, you're making a cheap Chinese knockoff. It would be a lot better to just patch some of the idiosyncrasies by adding compatible story elements or doing some small rewrites. I feel bad for whoever is going to tap themselves 150 pages of dry fanon because of a few (probably mostly subjective) plot inconveniences.I did not write it. Please stop calling it mine.

Starcraft was about faction politics and moral ambiguity, not personal vendettas. Kerry does not contribute anything besides pointlessly shitting on the Zerg and being a plot device.

If she's so important, then we can make her a component personality of one of the giant brain monsters. That's the only way she would be able to control Zerg anyhow, because by the logic of SC1 (before Metzen's BW retcons) you had to be a giant brain to control Zerg.

Otherwise, her only contribution would be as some random cerebrate's pet.

Yeah at this point, better to just make a completely new universe/IP.
Which everyone will know is a ripoff of Starcraft 1. There's no point!

Mislagnissa

11-17-2017, 08:21 PM

Look, Starcraft was about faction politics and moral ambiguity. That was the main allure. It was never about a specific group of characters being the movers and shakers. Metzen forced that in and ruined everything.

Kerry was only ever a distraction. Her plot was exhausted in Starcraft 2 and there's nothing interesting to do with her. She is not the main character of Starcraft and she does not deserve to show up again in a reboot or sequel. The Zerg stories should focus on the Overmind and cerebrates, not Metzen's BDSM fantasy.

I don't understand you people. Why do you want Kerry to be the main character, rather than the competing factions with their distinct morals? That's not what Starcraft was about!

These changes make the plot follow the original manual! It is not a separate IP! If anything, it is the real IP as envisioned by Phinney before Metzen shat on it.

I think you are blowing things out of proportion. In the original thread where this was posted, all the replies were positive and agreed that Kerry should be dropped.

sandwich_bird

11-17-2017, 08:25 PM

Starcraft was about faction politics and moral ambiguity, not personal vendettas. Kerry does not contribute anything besides pointlessly shitting on the Zerg and being a plot device.

I strongly disagree. That's part of it yes, but that's not the entirety of it. A story needs characters, not just settings and events. Ask any fan who are the first characters that come to their mind when they think of Starcraft, I'd bet you anything that Kerrigan is among the first 5 named. For better or for worst, Kerrigan is a main part of that story. She can't just be another brain monster. Would you replace wolverine in the X-Men with just another mutant? "Oh but the story is not about his personal vendetta, it's about the struggle of being different". Sure it is, but the vast majority of fans want Wolverine in X-men and that's just how it is.

Argue all you want, she will still be on the box cover.

I don't understand you people. Why do you want Kerry to be the main character, rather than the competing factions with their distinct morals? That's not what Starcraft was about!

Can you point me to a good story that's strictly about factions/organizations and their struggles? A completely impersonal story but yet still a good story? I don't know any. In my mind, it's close to impossible to make such a story without it sounding like a dry history lesson. Imagine Game of Thrones/ASOIAF but no one has names and everyone is just a generic medieval person. "Princess X got back-stabbed by rogue assassin of faction Y at King X wedding which started the fifth war of...". That sounds just horrible to me but if that's your thing, consider yourself in the minority.

Gradius

11-17-2017, 09:41 PM

I hate Kerrigan because she completely replaced the cerebrates and is more powerful than a protoss, but otherwise the drama was good enough.

Which everyone will know is a ripoff of Starcraft 1. There's no point!
I mean you do think 5/6 of the story is garbage, so would that be so bad? :P

But no, I feel it. You want the same setting but better plot.

Turalyon

11-17-2017, 11:47 PM

So much common sense coming from Birds words.

I hate Kerrigan because she completely replaced the cerebrates and is more powerful than a protoss, but otherwise the drama was good enough.

I actually like the inclusion/idea of Kerrigan's character in BW because of the fact that I don't like her in a traditional way and because it was a brave move/huge subversion of the Zerg following the death of the Overmind.

She was also the only true anti-hero in that universe. And much like other genre anti-heroes (Walter White and Saul Tigh come to mind so readily for me), she floated this line between being the "hate sink" for all the despicable acts and brattiness she displays and being "love to hate" for all the bad-ass Queen Bitchiness. There was a reason behind all of this behaviour, sympathisable as it may have been, but it's not easily discerned because it's buried and only comes out at rare moments.

Look, Starcraft was about faction politics and moral ambiguity. That was the main allure. It was never about a specific group of characters being the movers and shakers. Metzen forced that in and ruined everything.

I don't understand you people. Why do you want Kerry to be the main character, rather than the competing factions with their distinct morals? That's not what Starcraft was about!

Oh, I don't know whether we can generalise the main appeal of Starcraft in this one specific way because well, I can easily say that the Zerg are not about faction politics (they are the one and only truly unified force) or moral ambiguity (they're amoral).

I'm going to borrow from Tolkien here and say that what I think the greatest thing about Starcraft is that it has varied applicability rather than being allegorical. Seeing Starcraft as being nothing but an allegory for faction politics and moral ambiguity (whether that be from the authors intent or the viewer/audience) doesn't entirely explain/capture it's appeal in my opinion. No doubt, it is an important and interesting part but it's only one part and not the only part. In that, I mean that there is room for varied observer interpretation not just a single authorial intent.

These changes make the plot follow the original manual! It is not a separate IP! If anything, it is the real IP as envisioned by Phinney before Metzen shat on it.

As much as I too would like to give Phinney all the credit and that his particular vision of it was all great and planned out, I'm not too sure that even he really sweated out the details to the extent like ToxicDefiler has done in his treatment. I think it all just came down to good "pants writing".

Oh, and if you're interested in seeing a solo writing work for a game that Phinney did on his own, you should check out this old game called Sacrifice. It's about this Wizard (voiced by Paul Eiding - the voice of Aldaris) who finds himself embroiled in a war amongst 5 gods. It was an underappreciated gem (it was too weird for its time because it confused everyone by mixing whimsy, humour and seriousness/darkness together) and had a very interesting narrative presentation in that it was about the Wizard relating this tale to another character whereby your gameplay choice of missions would change how the story went. I get the sneaking suspicion that Phinney probably wrote most of the flowery dialogue that we see in the Overmind and some of the Protoss characters.

Mislagnissa

11-18-2017, 12:52 AM

I edited the first post to add some more context and a brief list of major changes.

I spend hours writing this post so it probably has lots of redundant text. I am very frustrated and inarticulate today for some reason.

If I seem to be rambling just ignore any irrelevant stuff. I go to sleep now. 1 AM in morning.

I strongly disagree. That's part of it yes, but that's not the entirety of it. A story needs characters, not just settings and events. Ask any fan who are the first characters that come to their mind when they think of Starcraft, I'd bet you anything that Kerrigan is among the first 5 named. For better or for worst, Kerrigan is a main part of that story. She can't just be another brain monster. Would you replace wolverine in the X-Men with just another mutant? "Oh but the story is not about his personal vendetta, it's about the struggle of being different". Sure it is, but the vast majority of fans want Wolverine in X-men and that's just how it is.

Argue all you want, she will still be on the box cover.
Do you even like her or are you just basing this on stereotypes of fanboys?

You are forcing Starcraft into a tiny, banal box. Kerry as the main character? That is such a tiny, limited view of what Starcraft is and could ever be. That is like saying WarCraft was always about Arthas, and not the dozens of other characters who appeared. Starcraft is military scifi, not a superhero comic or romance novel. It has a much larger scale than the common soap opera. Unless you are trying to say the franchise is poisoned, which I would contest.

Kerry's story has already been exhausted and there's nothing else to do with her. What is she gonna do? Fight Duran to the death? Conquer the sector a second time? Kill everyone who is still alive? Sit on her throne of corpses and twiddle her thumbs forever? There is nowhere for her character to go.

Saying that she is beloved by fans was never a good justification. HotS caused most players to outright hate her or at least become sick of her. Plenty of players agree she is not necessary and that the Overmind is better. See these discussions for examples:
http://www.campaigncreations.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1647
https://eu.battle.net/forums/en/sc2/topic/8016881832
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/sc2/topic/12471457492

Almost every fanfic about her turns her into a lovesick puppy. In one story "Breeding the Queen", and I wish I was making this up, she fucks her pet Zergling every which way. Every time I read her name I cannot help but remember those lurid passages.

Can you point me to a good story that's strictly about factions/organizations and their struggles? A completely impersonal story but yet still a good story? I don't know any. In my mind, it's close to impossible to make such a story without it sounding like a dry history lesson. Imagine Game of Thrones/ASOIAF but no one has names and everyone is just a generic medieval person. "Princess X got back-stabbed by rogue assassin of faction Y at King X wedding which started the fifth war of...". That sounds just horrible to me but if that's your thing, consider yourself in the minority.
What? Where did I ever say anything like that?

You are taking my statement way too literally. What I meant was that Starcraft was about factions and portrayed events through the eyes of members of those factions. It was not about one or two characters who controlled the fate of the universe. The stories should focus on other characters and other plots, not just the twelve or so characters who appeared in the original SC/BW. The point of SC:EN is that it expands the setting to tell many different stories about many different characters across two different wars with many different theaters.

The campaigns of Loomings, Rebel Yell, Enslavers, Insurrection and Retribution were all personal stories that focused on a small cast of characters in a limited setting. They were meant to give a glimpse into the massive galaxy of Starcraft. They were not meant to be the be-all-end-all of the universe like Episodes 2 and beyond degenerated into.

SC:EN was intended as a guide for mapmakers to be able to loosely collaborate and work within a shared fictional universe. It was never intended to focus solely on the same cast of twelve characters who only matter because they showed up first in the script. It is supposed to be about countless characters in countless campaigns. Not the same character over and over.

Do you want Starcraft to be stuck in a rut around Kerry and Raynor and Zeratul and Fenix and Artanis, or do you want to see the world outside of them? The Protoss are supposed to rule like an eighth of the galaxy, which is insanely huge! We should really get to see that some time. Or are you saying that Blizzard can never deliver and we should not bother because you believe no one will like it? Did you hand out surveys to confirm that? Why even try to petition them to reboot at all if it will just be literally exactly the same thing we already got? That's not how reboots work.

I would contest that. I do not get that impression from other discussions of sequels or reboots. Players seem to want the three races to fight each other, not team up to fight space satan or play second fiddle to romances. SC:EN is the only proposal I have seen that really provides that, since Brood War 2: Revenge of the UED will most likely end in everyone dying.

So much common sense coming from Birds words.

I actually like the inclusion/idea of Kerrigan's character in BW because of the fact that I don't like her in a traditional way and because it was a brave move/huge subversion of the Zerg following the death of the Overmind.

She was also the only true anti-hero in that universe. And much like other genre anti-heroes (Walter White and Saul Tigh come to mind so readily for me), she floated this line between being the "hate sink" for all the despicable acts and brattiness she displays and being "love to hate" for all the bad-ass Queen Bitchiness. There was a reason behind all of this behaviour, sympathisable as it may have been, but it's not easily discerned because it's buried and only comes out at rare moments.

Oh, I don't know whether we can generalise the main appeal of Starcraft in this one specific way because well, I can easily say that the Zerg are not about faction politics (they are the one and only truly unified force) or moral ambiguity (they're amoral).

I'm going to borrow from Tolkien here and say that what I think the greatest thing about Starcraft is that it has varied applicability rather than being allegorical. Seeing Starcraft as being nothing but an allegory for faction politics and moral ambiguity (whether that be from the authors intent or the viewer/audience) doesn't entirely explain/capture it's appeal in my opinion. No doubt, it is an important and interesting part but it's only one part and not the only part. In that, I mean that there is room for varied observer interpretation not just a single authorial intent.

As much as I too would like to give Phinney all the credit and that his particular vision of it was all great and planned out, I'm not too sure that even he really sweated out the details to the extent like ToxicDefiler has done in his treatment. I think it all just came down to good "pants writing".

Oh, and if you're interested in seeing a solo writing work for a game that Phinney did on his own, you should check out this old game called Sacrifice. It's about this Wizard (voiced by Paul Eiding - the voice of Aldaris) who finds himself embroiled in a war amongst 5 gods. It was an underappreciated gem (it was too weird for its time because it confused everyone by mixing whimsy, humour and seriousness/darkness together) and had a very interesting narrative presentation in that it was about the Wizard relating this tale to another character whereby your gameplay choice of missions would change how the story went. I get the sneaking suspicion that Phinney probably wrote most of the flowery dialogue that we see in the Overmind and some of the Protoss characters.

IIRC in an interview Metzen said he wrote the Zerg to speak in King James style. I will need to find the link.

I probably put it wrong, but by faction politics and morality I meant that the point of the game was that three races Terran, Zerg and Protoss were fighting each other for their own reasons and did not clearly fall into good guys and bad guys. That is what attracted players to Starcraft in the first place, not Kerry. Why do you think it is a national eSport in South Korea?

You might admire QoB because she ruined the Zerg, but that is precisely why SC:EN writes her out of the story. Use the find function in your browser to search mentions of her in the first three posts, the quotes explain why she was dropped.

Turalyon

11-18-2017, 05:49 AM

IIRC in an interview Metzen said he wrote the Zerg to speak in King James style. I will need to find the link.

Only the Overmind speaks in an antiquated manner though. It was a conceit/expedient to represent that the Overmind was ancient without having to exposit or physically show it (which would be difficult anyway since its completely alien/ain't humanoid).

I probably put it wrong, but by faction politics and morality I meant that the point of the game was that three races Terran, Zerg and Protoss were fighting each other for their own reasons and did not clearly fall into good guys and bad guys. That is what attracted players to Starcraft in the first place, not Kerry. Why do you think it is a national eSport in South Korea?

You're touching on gameplay-story segregation here. People who like Starcraft for the game, don't give much of a rats arse about the story or lore and people who like it for the lore, don't sweat the gameplay oddities too much.

I disagree about how you disregard the importance of the characters as being one of the reasons for one's preference for Sc1 though. The characters are the lens through which one see the politics and morality at play.

You might admire QoB because she ruined the Zerg, but that is precisely why SC:EN writes her out of the story.

I don't admire the QoB because she ruined the Zerg, I admire the idea of the character as an anti-hero. I admire the idea of having some unlikable person taking advantage of the situation the Zerg were in after the loss of the Overmind for their own benefit because it's a risky and challenging writing position to take up. This is what one thing BW has over Sc2 - the story in BW had more balls, gumption and heart whereas Sc2 felt stale and safe.

Sure, the implementation of this idea in BW was ultimately and sorely lacking in that it tended to hyperinflate the importance/significance of the character (hence the Mary Sue accusations) and rendered everything about the Zerg into nothing more but a plot device, but it doesn't mean the idea can't be used well. Kerrigan could've been used well in a revisionist BW where she could've carved out a niche within the Zerg like Sylvanas Windrunner of Warcraft does with the undead (her undead faction, the Forsaken, is against everyone, including the mainline Undead controlled by the Lich King) instead of being the "bestest of best Zerg leaders" as BW trends towards. Alternatively, she could've been use well in an interregnum or transition phase between the loss of the Overmind and the Zerg evolving on its own to not need a hivemind or someone controlling them.

Visions of Khas

11-18-2017, 06:45 AM

"The Overmind campaign sucked." "BroodWar wasn't great."

I'm beginning to think you picked the wrong fandom.

sandwich_bird

11-18-2017, 09:21 AM

Do you even like her or are you just basing this on stereotypes of fanboys?

Both. I liked the idea of episode 2. I liked hating her in BW. Everything related to her in SC2 is garbage though. What I find interesting from reading your comment is that you seem to think that SC2 is the only way that the story can go down. I think pretty much everyone here had a very different story idea for SC2 in the early 2000's. I also think that everyone here would agree that SC2 was extremely mishandled. You don't need a new blank slate to make something interesting.

The thing is, I like the whole package that is SC1/BW. I get the feeling that you don't. You only like some broad settings of the universe. That's fine but like Grad said, you might as well just go create your own universe with whatever you cherry-pick from the franchise.

Almost every fanfic about her turns her into a lovesick puppy. In one story "Breeding the Queen", and I wish I was making this up, she fucks her pet Zergling every which way. Every time I read her name I cannot help but remember those lurid passages.

lmao

You are taking my statement way too literally. What I meant was that Starcraft was about factions and portrayed events through the eyes of members of those factions. It was not about one or two characters who controlled the fate of the universe. The stories should focus on other characters and other plots, not just the twelve or so characters who appeared in the original SC/BW. The point of SC:EN is that it expands the setting to tell many different stories about many different characters across two different wars with many different theaters.

I think the real question is: what specifically do you see that is stopping anyone from writing spin-offs inside the current universe? You can still write a story about faction wars and what not while keeping everything that happened. Yes, it's harder but again, if you want to color your own shapes, don't buy a coloring book? Or better yet, do a prequel or a sequel far into the future or far away in space. It's not hard: "The UED sent a 2nd expedition but got lost on their way and ended up in a different system far away who is inhabited by a rogue cerebrate who is trying to enslave indigenous aliens of the region. Protoss scientists of the region are trying to stop the cerebrate and etc etc etc...". Is it really this hard? Do I really need a revisionist history for this?

Nissa

11-18-2017, 11:41 AM

Okay, I'm gettin' in it now. I don't know if it'll actually help, but whatever.

Mags, my main problem here is that you're being really insistent about something none of us here are all that troubled about. Kerrigan is a vital character to what happened in the story, and we all recognize that. Yeah, SC2 was a pile of garbage, but it didn't have to be that way. You also appear (forgive me if I have misinterpreted the appearance) to be associating BW with SC2, which is a fallacy. You're blaming Kerri for all the problems with how the story turned out, but it's not her fault. It's Blizzard's. Yes, it's clear from the very beginning that Kerri was going to be the setup for some universe-changing dealio, but that didn't have to turn out the way it did. It could have been for good, evil, neutral, or a combination of the above. Blizzard chose to take it where it went and make it a romance. It was not a romance from the beginning.

Technically speaking, the story could have worked if Kerrigan were removed, and it could have worked with her around. It could have worked without Raynor, or without Aldaris, with more fantasy elements, or with a brand new character called Gargamon who eats planets. None of these elements are good or bad of themselves, it depends on how they are used, and how they match the needs of the RTS format and the expectations of the audience. Could Starcraft been good without Kerrigan? Sure. It also coulda sucked hard. Her presence or absence is indifferent. The presence or absence of terrible writers is not indifferent.

Like it or not, bro, Kerrigan is here to stay. She's too vital a part of the story to disappear. If she were a character introduced in BW or SC2, I would view your opinion more favorably. As it is, Kerrigan is there from day one. She's one of the first people we're introduced to and her fate is a major part of Starcraft. You can't hate on her general existence without hating on Starcraft itself. Any imagining of Starcraft without her is in the realm of fanfiction.

As much as I support fanfiction, it is not exactly high class writing, or canon writing that one can hold insistent opinions on. Quite frankly, your insistence reminds me of the time someone once criticized me in the Mega Man section in ff.net for not making two Mega Man X characters in a romance. She insisted that because most of the fans thought these two characters dated in the past (Alia and Gate, for the record), then I need to show that in the story. Nope. It wasn't in the games, I don't have to do it. Likewise, your fanon states that Kerrigan isn't in Starcraft, but she is. Fanon of any type is automatically unreliable. It's not personal, it's just how it is. No matter how much you don't want Kerrigan, her absence is your fanon.

Hey man, write fanfiction if you want to. If it's good I'll leave a good review. Just don't be surprised if other people don't treat your fanon like canon.

As far as characters go, I feel ya. As a writer, I continually observe things and the nature of storytelling. Some stories have main characters, and some characters are ensemble. And some are in-between. Like Starcraft. In SC, so far as I can observe, the main characters are Raynor, Kerrigan, and Mengsk. They're the ones who reveal the world to us, and their dynamic creates conflict that all three races have to deal with. However, because Starcraft's openness comes from having other characters with very significant roles. In other words, Starcraft has main characters, but since it treats the supporting characters with significance, the "main character-ness" is less obvious.

Mislagnissa

11-18-2017, 02:01 PM

Mislagnissa

11-18-2017, 07:24 PM

I mean it. If you are going to petition Blizzard to make your own version of Starcraft 2: The Continuing Adventures of Kerry, then why not a second alternate universe where the Zerg don't have their thunder stolen? I already made up the Metzenverse and Phinneyverse terminology. If we have Heroes of the Storm making the multiverse canon, then why not explore that?

The Metzenverse is the brainchild of Metzen, except with the BW retcons replacing the original backstory. The Zerg were space bugs sent by the Xel'naga to kill the Protoss and the Terrans happened to be in their path. Kerry was a special snowflake who took them over. The Terrans have always had contact with Earth, but only the aliens and Mengsk's succession made Earth care about them. Duran is a xel'naga agent who is trying to make hybrids, which was the reason they created the Zerg and Protoss. The Zerg were uncontrollable beasts until Kerry took over and Duran played her like a flute.

The Phinneyverse follows from Phinney's original backstory plus the elaboration given by ToxicDefiler. This universe focuses on the galactic war between the Zerg, Protoss and Terrans. The Zerg want perfection by assimilating the Protoss, but first they need a weapon. The Terrans fit the bill and become embroiled in the conflict. It is a really dark setting that does not have demigods or prophecies.

Seriously, Heroes of the Storm has characters from SC, WC and Diablo fighting together. Two alternate universes, one for Kerry and one for everything else, should be easy to swallow.

Can you guys accept that compromise? You want Kerry, I want Zerg. Everyone is happy, right?

Gradius

11-18-2017, 07:42 PM

Turalyon

11-19-2017, 12:46 AM

So if I understand you guys correctly, you want the series to remain trapped in a tiny, stagnant box where Kerry, Raynor and Mengsk are the only characters of consequence, despite the massive size and populations of the Koprulu sector and Protoss space? And if anyone wants to tell stories about other characters, you want them to set those in another far flung region of space unconnected to the Koprulu sector?

No and no. Your generalised conclusion makes we wonder whether you're just forcing yourself to see things in a certain way to reinforce your position because you're so blinded by your bias or whether you truly don't understand our position (like much in the way Rag normally goes about when he replys).

For me, Starcraft has always felt relatively provincial, intimate and small. It's only really felt to be of greater/epic proportions because the characters within it that instill that sense, not because it actually is. This particular feel isn't directly tied to any one specific/known character (or characters) because I found that the most interesting/memorable stories that have ever come out during the entire period of Sc2's release was actually the short stories they released. Those short stories had a sort of natural epicness that was far greater than anything found in Sc2 itself (where its epicness seemed to be more forced than being naturally developed), despite their scope being extremely small and their characters being essentially "nobodys". Sc1 was much like those short stories in a way. It felt like it was just that these events happened to focus on these characters. Whilst BW was behooved to have these characters again, being a direct continuation (it occurs almost immediately after Sc1 ends) and being released so soon after Sc1, Sc2 didn't have to follow the same vein because BW easily served as a finale of sorts (downer though it may be) and there was 4 years that passed. This feeling of constraint having to use previous established characters again is an issue of sequelitis. It is more strongly and unnecessarily felt in Sc2 than it is in BW.

Even with that said, this is not to say that the known, named characters we did have couldn't have had good/resonating stories. This is what makes BW more memorable than Sc2. The drama of Raynor being betrayed, the bad-assery of Kerrigan with hints of regret for her actions, the tragedy that befalls Zeratul; these easily trump any of the many obvious conceits used to bring that drama forward because those feels are a goal in themselves and not necessarily about plot development/movement. It's fine and consistent in a Watsonian sense to have the characters develop tangentially to the plot despite it being Doylist in how it was brought about.

In contrast, Sc2 is nothing but conceit. Any drama that does occur feels forced and or enslaved to plot progression. Raynor's change of heart is not Watsonian in its consistency because of Doylist reasons. He ends BW being embittered and hates Kerrigan but somehow clings to a notion that she can be saved or good again because of... unexplained reasons? (Oh right, it's been 4 years... as if this is supposed to explain everything that has and has not happened since) His "redemption" is not something that can be easily found, expected to be resolved nor that he's searching for it in the Watsonian sense, but it is given to him anyway in a Doylist way like a gift from the gods. The game/authorial intent wants to position him as a hero despite his anti-hero leanings being an informed trait and having no observable negative consequence. It's really all there just to have an excuse for Kerrigan to turn good again (her being deinfested is actually unimportant and strangely irrelevent as the story progresses) because Raynor is such a "good" man for not giving up on her... or something.

HotS and LotV fair a little better in that there is a proper and largely consistent motivation for the main character throughout most of the game but it's bad because the entire initial motivation is purposefully Doylist in inspiration. Kerrigan seeking revenge and getting redemption doesn't feel wholly Watsonian in nature because the Doylist reason to have the plot engineered to have her be instrumental in saving the galaxy is more overt/important. Artanis and the Protoss being all powerful and beating a threat that was greater than anything before is not consistent in a Watsonian way because the Protoss have been shown to be weak and weakened by weaker enemise previously.

All in all, in a TLDR summary, the issue is one to do with the implementation of a character not the character in and of itself.

Mislagnissa

11-19-2017, 09:11 AM

Nobody is saying it couldn't have been done better, just that it was decent for video game stories.

You want a reboot, and I think few people disagree with that. You also want more custom campaigns in an alternate universe, and nobody is stopping you from making those. So what's the problem?
I wanted this thread to discuss the Phinneyverse I mentioned, but it seems nobody is actually interested. That is really frustrating. I do not see the point in wasting my free time writing stories and programming maps nobody will be interested in, nor being the only person in the world doing so.

I have many other fandoms to choose from. Warhammer 40k is closest to Starcraft, even if the Tyranids are bland as saltines and the video games suck. Is Starcraft worth my time, or should I write it off and leave?

Gradius

11-19-2017, 09:39 AM

I wanted this thread to discuss the Phinneyverse I mentioned, but it seems nobody is actually interested. That is really frustrating. I do not see the point in wasting my free time writing stories and programming maps nobody will be interested in, nor being the only person in the world doing so.
I mean, what’d you expect? Think about the value proposition you’re offering. At least a custom campaign has gameplay value. What does this non-canon Phinneyverse have? As far as I can tell it’s just a worldbuilding document and not even an actual alternate universe story that would be entertaining to read. You want us to to pour over these giant manuscripts that nobody else is interested in because they’re never going to be canon, and help fact check or whatever? That sounds like the type of tedious job that people come on here to get away from. The best case scenario is someone reads it, thinks “welp, that’s cool, I wish we had this” and then never sees it again in their life because it’s just a forum post. :P

Is Starcraft worth my time, or should I write it off and leave?

What do you want out of it? A vibrant community based around Enumerate? Probably not going to happen. An AU campaign could be worth it if you’re willing to make the time trade off.

But you clearly dislike the core canon and it’s not going away, so maybe StarCraft isn’t for you.

Nolanstar

11-19-2017, 02:33 PM

Custom campaigns do not have to be shoehorned into an alternate universe to be "dark and gritty", just that most of the ones coming out are made by individuals with writing styles that don't mesh well with it.

Crimson Moon, Amber Sun and Aurolan Eclipse do a good job of being sc-universe but more gritty story.

Mislagnissa

11-19-2017, 04:23 PM

I mean, what’d you expect? Think about the value proposition you’re offering. At least a custom campaign has gameplay value. What does this non-canon Phinneyverse have? As far as I can tell it’s just a worldbuilding document and not even an actual alternate universe story that would be entertaining to read. You want us to to pour over these giant manuscripts that nobody else is interested in because they’re never going to be canon, and help fact check or whatever? That sounds like the type of tedious job that people come on here to get away from. The best case scenario is someone reads it, thinks “welp, that’s cool, I wish we had this” and then never sees it again in their life because it’s just a forum post. :P
I copied excerpts that explain the basic concept and provide a timeline and list of war theaters. That alone gives a sprawling setting. The first post lists the major changes:

- No Kerrigan, instead the Zerg will have Assimilated Terrans as units.
- No Duran, Amon, nor major Xel'Naga Plotline such as Hybrids nor Prophecy.
- UED is replaced by the Umojans, and the Kel-Morians will also be a major component.
- Zeratul sacrifices himself instead of Tassadar during the Death of the Overmind.

I have only skimmed the big book thing myself. Takes time to read it.

What do you want out of it? A vibrant community based around Enumerate? Probably not going to happen. An AU campaign could be worth it if you’re willing to make the time trade off.

But you clearly dislike the core canon and it’s not going away, so maybe StarCraft isn’t for you.

Core canon? Metzen admits he invented QoB ad hoc in an interview on Polygon; before that she would have just died to motivate Jimmy and the Zerg would have kept their original motivation to eat all humanity.

But thank you for clearing that up. I shall forget this fandom and never look back just like I did fifteen years ago. Who knows, I might come back in another decade once people have gotten over Kerry and are open to exploring how things could have been without her.

Gradius

11-19-2017, 05:24 PM

Core canon? Metzen admits he invented QoB ad hoc in an interview on Polygon; before that she would have just died to motivate Jimmy and the Zerg would have kept their original motivation to eat all humanity.
Your point? She's an important character for literally every SC game.

Turalyon

11-19-2017, 07:50 PM

I wanted this thread to discuss the Phinneyverse I mentioned, but it seems nobody is actually interested.

The best case scenario is someone reads it, thinks “welp, that’s cool, I wish we had this” and then never sees it again in their life because it’s just a forum post.

That's it in a nutshell.

Besides, there's nothing to discuss since it's all just content and no narrative, so we can't really judge it and compare it to the thing we have got. The issue with the games story has never been about the content but the implementation of that content to have an affecting and effective plot. I'd imagine that even if one were to use the content you've provided, it's not an absolute guarantee that it would be implemented well.

Mislagnissa

11-20-2017, 09:29 AM

Your point? She's an important character for literally every SC game.
Not the Nova DLC. I got the impression Blizzard wanted to close the book on Kerry and focus on other characters. Which I would have applauded if their writing was not typically crappy.

That's it in a nutshell.

Besides, there's nothing to discuss since it's all just content and no narrative, so we can't really judge it and compare it to the thing we have got. The issue with the games story has never been about the content but the implementation of that content to have an affecting and effective plot. I'd imagine that even if one were to use the content you've provided, it's not an absolute guarantee that it would be implemented well.
Your complaint is baseless: Blizzard cannot write anything well. The Phinneyverse was written for the fans, so I certainly think there are things that we the fans may discuss about it.

The timeline qualifies as a narrative, or maybe "metaplot" in TVtropes jargon. It is bare bones, yes, because the author expected map makers to use it as a basis for their own stories. The idea is that map makers could set stories in the same universe, rather than an unconnected morass of distant prequels (e.g. Origins), various flavors of sequels (e.g. Replicant, Noir, Wrath of the Tal'darim), tangential stories set in far flung regions of space (e.g. Annihilation, Odyssey), really bizarre alternate universes (e.g. Legacy of the Confederation, Time Convergence), or stories which cannot possibly fit anywhere in canon (e.g. Proditor, Vortex of the Void).

Phinneyverse/Enumerate is about encouraging creativity in the custom campaigns while allowing them to share a single universe. The benefit of the Phinneyverse is that it is easy to write stories for it, because that is specifically the reason it was devised. Arbitrary restrictions like Kerry controlling the Zerg, Earth having fleets of doom that could arrive at any time, or Duran hiding an army of hybrids do not need to be accounted for. You do not have to jump through hoops to overcome these restrictions because they no longer exist. It is fairly easy to fit a number of existing custom campaigns into the Phinneyverse/Enumerate metaplot. Furthermore, the massive scale of the metaplot means that adding new factions without upsetting the status quo is fairly easy.

Proditor, for example, may fit because the Phinneyverse does not arbitrarily make Protoss immune to infestation/assimilation, and the corrupted templar introduced therein may continue to play a role in the stories focusing on them.

Campaigns like Annihilation, which specifically severs itself from the rest of the K-sec to avoid those restrictions, becomes easy to integrate. For example, the RSSI becomes one of many mega-corporations that dot the Dominion (remember, Terrans live in a cyberpunk dystopia), the Idu'ran tribe becomes part of the Protoss Empire rather than "independent" khala followers (?), and the Daggerfang brood becomes part of the Zerg Swarm that was following its directive (whatever that was) before the RSSI interrupted it.

I shall take a lot at the major changes and comment on them:

- No Kerrigan, instead the Zerg will have Assimilated Terrans as units.This fits with the backstory Phinney wrote in the original manual. The overall plot of assimilated Terrans being Zerg messiahs, luring Protoss to the hive worlds, and feral brain beasts competing during the Brood Wars is basically the same. (Kerry herself died on Tarsonis to give Raynor more guilt.)

- No Duran, Amon, nor major Xel'Naga Plotline such as Hybrids nor Prophecy.This fits with Phinney's original backstory. The xel'naga were eaten by the Zerg, and it was the Zerg who wanted to assimilate the Protoss and become perfect. That said, I still think hybrid units could be introduced as failed attempts to achieve perfection by both Zerg and lunatics like Ulrezaj.

- UED is replaced by the Umojans, and the Kel-Morians will also be a major component.This fits with Phinney's backstory about K-sec being utterly cut off. DuGalle and Stukov were already fan favorite heroes, whose only flaw was that fate (i.e. Metzen) conspired against them, so I see no problem keeping them as Umojans valiantly fighting the corrupt Dominion.

- Zeratul sacrifices himself instead of Tassadar during the Death of the Overmind.I can see some people disagreeing with this, but I can also see some merit to it. Zeratul wants to atone for giving up vital military intel to the Zerg, and Tassadar wants to stay around and teach his disciples how to combine the void and khala like he does.

In terms of other changes, EN has the Zerg maintaining a presence in K-sec with the intent of exterminating the remaining Terrans. The benefit of this is that it keeps the Terrans involved in the plot rather than forgetting about them when the Zerg fight the Protoss. Raynor is briefly mentioned as fighting the Dominion in a manner that is probably identical to the plot of WoL. I think that is an excellent use of his character. Unexplored lingering plot threads include the fate of his son, Johnny, who was most likely in the Ghost Academy on Tarsonis when it was taken by the Zerg.

The Zerg will be attacking planets that are held by the Khala, in order to exterminate the race and collect as many Khaydarin Crystals to help the process of Assimilation for the Protoss.The Protoss have the sprawling empire they did in Phinney's backstory. This plot point is based on EP2 Mission 9, fleshed out and explained. I love the idea of using khaydarin crystals for psychic warfare against the khala.

The Zerg will be attacking the Dark Templar, hunting down as many as possible with its devastating Broods in order to remove the threat of the Dark Templar and the potential harm it can do to the Swarm.Following from Phinney's lore, the dark templar nomads are spread across Protoss space. I like this idea, as it makes the dark templar actors in their own right rather than a plot device to save the khala. EP4 is the only campaign even close to something like this.

The Zerg will be attacking Aiur as the primary base of operations after Char and the other Hive Worlds, to plan and start the Assimilation Process of the Protoss by first attacking the Khala that unites them.Aiur is the capital world and the center of the Psi Matrix uniting the empire, so this makes sense. I think this is based on Amon's plot in LotV, only the Overmind needs to work for this like a real cybercriminal.

The Zerg will be exploring planets that once held the Pre-Aeon Protoss, finding their ruins in order to help their progress into assimilating the Protoss, and their extermination of independence from the Swarm.As in Phinney's lore, the Protoss were really advanced before the Aeon of Strife, and their current civilization is a pale shadow of their ancestors. Examples of this plot hook may be seen in Retribution and Shadow of the Xel'naga.

The Brood Wars sections mentions that enslavement attempts become much easier and alludes to Enslavers, The Iron Fist (terrans enslaving Zerg with psi tech), Dark Vengeance (nerazim enslaving Zerg with argus) and even Gradius' Subjugation (khalai enslaving zerg with khaydarin).

But if you are indeed uninterested, then I will leave and maybe return in a decade or so when Blizzard has released more Starcraft campaigns without Kerry than with and everyone has gotten over their infatuation with her. Just let me know ASAP, because attempting to discuss this with you guys has honestly been so frustrating and stressful for me that I literally had green diarrhea.

Gradius

11-20-2017, 12:40 PM

Not the Nova DLC. I got the impression Blizzard wanted to close the book on Kerry and focus on other characters. Which I would have applauded if their writing was not typically crappy.
The Nova DLC is actually decent.

But if you are indeed uninterested, then I will leave
I am interested. It sounds great. :P

and maybe return in a decade or so when Blizzard has released more Starcraft campaigns without Kerry than with and everyone has gotten over their infatuation with her.
As I said, she's my least favorite character. <_<

sandwich_bird

11-20-2017, 12:57 PM

Not the Nova DLC. I got the impression Blizzard wanted to close the book on Kerry and focus on other characters. Which I would have applauded if their writing was not typically crappy.

So you (almost) applaud that campaign which does exactly what I was telling you to do? I'm confused.

Phinneyverse/Enumerate is about encouraging creativity in the custom campaigns while allowing them to share a single universe.

Ok but it's not like all campaigns will be magically compatible because you start using an alternate universe. What if I use your lore as a basis but still bring back all the things you hate XD Just under different names/flavours of course.

But anyways, instead of pitching Enumerate, why don't you pitch SC1's manual? Why not ask people to reboot everything but by using the SC1 manual as the base instead? Every fan already knows it which means that there is no need to read 150 pages to make sure whatever you come up with will fit the semi-arbitrary guidelines.. It's enough of a blank slate to to tell whatever stories you might like. I'm sure whoever is interested in making custom campaigns would be a lot more willing under those circumstances.

Gradius

11-20-2017, 01:09 PM

I mean if Enumerate was a good idea, map makers would have started using it already and the thread wouldn't have died on battle.net. Unfortunately it's 2 years later and the thread is dead and there's a grand total of zero campaigns that I know that have used it.

Mislagnissa

11-20-2017, 02:43 PM

But anyways, instead of pitching Enumerate, why don't you pitch SC1's manual? Why not ask people to reboot everything but by using the SC1 manual as the base instead? Every fan already knows it which means that there is no need to read 150 pages to make sure whatever you come up with will fit the semi-arbitrary guidelines.. It's enough of a blank slate to to tell whatever stories you might like. I'm sure whoever is interested in making custom campaigns would be a lot more willing under those circumstances.I thought that is what I was doing. I get what you mean though, which is why I only quoted the timeline and zerg tl;dr since they distill all the important plot points. I have not read through all 150 pages myself and many of the details are not particularly relevant. The only vitally important details are: no QoB, no Duran, no UED, and Zeratul dies instead of Tassadar. It saves me time on thinking up my own timeline: all I have to do is pick a point in the timeline and start writing a story set at that point which takes advantage of the opportunities available then.

Without the timeline, we would still have the same problem afflicting current custom campaigns where each one goes off in its own direction that is not compatible with others. Enumerate provides an overview of major historical periods in which custom campaigns may be set, while being flexible enough to permit a wide variety of stories. ToxicDefiler clearly went to a lot of trouble to pack in as many plot hooks as possible.

I disagree with certain details in Enumerate, like the rewrite of the Zerg queens or Nerazim relying on sign language, but the general metaplot is something I can easily get behind. There is lots of detail about Terran and Protoss cultures, but it is the sort of thing that will not feature in most campaigns unless faction or co-op commander special mechanics are intended to be showcased. I am sure unique units or modified tech trees for the Umojans, KMC, or specific Confederate noble families might appeal to some people, but it seems hardly vital to include them in every campaign (unless they're included in a mod).

I mean if Enumerate was a good idea, map makers would have started using it already and the thread wouldn't have died on battle.net. Unfortunately it's 2 years later and the thread is dead and there's a grand total of zero campaigns that I know that have used it.Are you sure that's not because Starcraft community was already on the decline or the SC2 editor is hell to work with? No one else has advanced an idea for a shared universe. Every custom campaign is going in its own direction. There are a couple dozen custom campaigns total for Starcraft 2, including ones that were cancelled or never finished. There are at least 200 custom campaigns for Starcraft 1 (not counting lost to internet decay), most of them completed.

ToxicDefiler replied last April that he would revisit the project at some point after he forgot about it. Honestly, the sheer size is probably the only thing that kept it from becoming more popular. Walls of text are imposing, no?

So let's spitball ideas. Don't worry about reading beyond the timeline and Zerg summary. Is anyone inspired to write a story set somewhere in that timeline or pursue the presented plot hooks?

My only problem is that I cannot decide which plot hook to explore first. Should I focus on a Zerg brood infesting a fringe colony, a tribe of Nerazim fighting off mysterious nightmarish invaders, rebels fighting the Dominion while secretly funded by the Umojans, or a cerebrate trying to survive the brood wars? All of those are explicitly given as plot hooks.

I am biased in favor of Zerg or Protoss PoV, but there are too many theaters to choose from. The freedom of choice is paralyzing.

Gradius

11-20-2017, 04:25 PM

Nissa

11-20-2017, 05:22 PM

Turalyon

11-21-2017, 03:59 AM

Why are you calling out Phinney's backstory? You should be giving your appropriate dues and referring to Enumerate's actual creator, ToxicDefiler.

The idea is that map makers could set stories in the same universe, rather than an unconnected morass of distant prequels (e.g. Origins), various flavors of sequels (e.g. Replicant, Noir, Wrath of the Tal'darim), tangential stories set in far flung regions of space (e.g. Annihilation, Odyssey), really bizarre alternate universes (e.g. Legacy of the Confederation, Time Convergence), or stories which cannot possibly fit anywhere in canon (e.g. Proditor, Vortex of the Void).

Admirable as the intent is and being detailed as it is, it still is fanon at the end of the day and people will either take it or leave it. You can say it's supposed to be the canon as much as you want but it's all just fanon and should be appreciated as such. I like a good alternative take on things but I'm under no illusions that it is more than just that. Don't get surprised or offended just because people don't want to talk about your favoured fanon nor want to consider it seriously.

Phinneyverse/Enumerate is about encouraging creativity in the custom campaigns while allowing them to share a single universe. The benefit of the Phinneyverse is that it is easy to write stories for it, because that is specifically the reason it was devised.

You're only saying that out of subjective preferential bias for Enumerate. The given Sc1/BW universe is just as easy to write stories for, encourages creativity and is an established single universe. Just because you don't like how a certain something occurred doesn't mean it's a restriction that can't be creatively worked around. You don't like Kerrigan, fine, just ignore her and have it that she has no influence in the story you want to create. You don't really have to create a whole universe that posits she never existed (not that I mind either way), just don't say it would be objectively better without the character because that remains to be seen.

Arbitrary restrictions like Kerry controlling the Zerg, Earth having fleets of doom that could arrive at any time, or Duran hiding an army of hybrids do not need to be accounted for. You do not have to jump through hoops to overcome these restrictions because they no longer exist.

And somehow creating and investing into a whole alternate history to this universe is not considered jumping though a hoop to avoid supposed restrictions? It's fiction - all of it is arbitrary. You yourself have conceded that the story is just an excuse to have 3 races fight each other afterall.

Those "restrictions" you mentioned are not really absolute restrictions, they just lacked forethought and detail in their implementation to bridge them appropriately into the universe at the time. One could easily, if they were willing and creative, to go into as much detail as to how Kerrigan goes about controlling the Zerg, how the UED timed its arrival or Duran creates Hybrids as much as ToxicDefiler did to create his alternate universe. I suspect that even if someone did do this, you would still disregard it because of your negative bias toward the idea of Kerrigan, UED or Duran/Hybrids.

This fits with the backstory Phinney wrote in the original manual. The overall plot of assimilated Terrans being Zerg messiahs, luring Protoss to the hive worlds, and feral brain beasts competing during the Brood Wars is basically the same. (Kerry herself died on Tarsonis to give Raynor more guilt.)

You've exposed that your position is based on subjective bias against the character called Kerrigan, not that she is objectively bad/wrong/inconsistent with the manual. Having Episode II Overmind replace all references to "Kerrigan" with generic "humans with psionic power" still won't mitigate the inherent problems in that story. This argument holds true irrespective of whether one likes or dislikes the Kerrigan character.

This fits with Phinney's original backstory. The xel'naga were eaten by the Zerg, and it was the Zerg who wanted to assimilate the Protoss and become perfect. That said, I still think hybrid units could be introduced as failed attempts to achieve perfection by both Zerg and lunatics like Ulrezaj.

I can get behind this. The Xel'Naga aren't actually important to the Sc1 narrative being told. They're really just a footnote and used merely as fluff to inform the current state of events. The Hybrid stuff I can take or leave but I do like it as a potential development of the Zerg process of trying to assimilate Protoss. This "failure" is a good excuse to prolong the conflict and prevent the Zerg from fulfilling their ultimate goal (and to prevent having to introduce another more powerful thing for the Zerg to go nom on and breaking the 3 race conflict that Sc is about), artifice though it may be.

This fits with Phinney's backstory about K-sec being utterly cut off.

I'm undecided on this. With the actual setup of Sc we've got, the Terrans being cut-off actually makes their continued existence somewhat unrealistic on a Watsonian level because they are inherently weak compared to the other two. This would justify the Doylist introduction of Earth coming to bolster their strength. It doesn't necessarily mean they have to be the UED/big bad antagonist though. Then again, I understand the appeal of the isolated Terrans finding ways to support themselves and become an equal force to the other two, because it is supposed to be about a 3 race conflict, not 2. Retcon is necessary to solve both problems but Earth being an additive retcon is a smoother option if handled properly than having to create an actual inconsistency via retcon ("Terrans are weak and got crushed" to "not being weak at all and only mildly damaged").

In terms of other changes, EN has the Zerg maintaining a presence in K-sec with the intent of exterminating the remaining Terrans. The benefit of this is that it keeps the Terrans involved in the plot rather than forgetting about them when the Zerg fight the Protoss. Raynor is briefly mentioned as fighting the Dominion in a manner that is probably identical to the plot of WoL.

This wouldn't make much sense. The Terran presence in the Koprulu sector is only viable if the Zerg relent in their attacks because by the end of Rebel Yell, the Terran strength is completely sapped. If the Zerg maintained the momentum of their offense on the Terrans after laying waste to Tarsonis, the Terrans would still not be part of the plot. Not because they were left out, but because they'd be well and truly wiped out!

Having Raynor around to fight the Dominion soon after Rebel Yell is too quick given that he escaped with the skin of his teeth from Mengsk and that he hasn't time to build up enough of a support base to fight Mengsk. Mengsk has also barely started being a tyrant and holds all the remaining Terran power/sentiment. If you pile on the Zerg still attacking the Terrans in this scenario, this will make Raynor an unwise idiot for attacking the only Terran force that's left to fight the Zerg. Realistically, in this scenario you propose, Raynor would have gotten the hell out of dodge and disappeared entirely.

the dark templar nomads are spread across Protoss space. I like this idea

I like this idea, too. I like the idea of DT's not even having a homeworld/Shakuras to begin with!

But if you are indeed uninterested, then I will leave and maybe return in a decade or so when Blizzard has released more Starcraft campaigns without Kerry than with and everyone has gotten over their infatuation with her. Just let me know ASAP, because attempting to discuss this with you guys has honestly been so frustrating and stressful for me that I literally had green diarrhea.

Why so serious? We're just throwing around opinions and having fun (at least I am at any rate). It's a forum for sharing ideas, not for stressing over. You really need some help dude.

Mislagnissa

11-21-2017, 09:32 AM

The editor is hard as hell to use, but an external document to adhere to only adds another hoop to jump through. That's why most campaigns have just worked with existing canon or went off on their own.

You should just make something for StarCraft: Remastered. It's a hell of a lot easier and people are playing it again.

I vote for Cerebrate trying to survive brood war.Which brood war? Canon or Enumerate?

Um, no, you're not paying attention. I'm saying (and I'm pretty sure others are too) that canon is that Kerrigan is a part of the story, like it or not. You are perfectly fine to write whatever you want, and we write/map what we want. We're simply saying that a reboot with Kerrigan removed isn't strictly necessary or desirable. Kerrigan, Mengsk, and Raynor technically speaking are the main characters, but that doesn't mean that the other character didn't get plenty of time to do their stuff, or that they can't be primary characters later on.I am sick of hearing about those characters! Canon is small world bullshit and it should be clear by now that I do not give a crap. Starcraft should not have main characters because it is about a galactic war that spans hundreds of worlds and billions of people. All of the various side stories that have been published over the years are vastly more interesting because they are down-to-earth and do not privilege any single viewpoint character over others.

Y'know, Mags, I'm feeling lazy. I don't really care to read a long thing about an alternate canon. What do you as an individual want to write?If you are not interested, why are you replying? I took the time and effort to copypaste only the timeline and I do not expect anyone to read the full document.

Here is the most abridged account I could do:

Prelude to War: Zerg vanguard invades K-sec. Terran governments wage secret war. Protoss scouts try to contain situation but fail.
Great War: Zerg armies arrive and abduct lots of psychics. Protoss purify planets. Terrans fight back.
Great War Part 2: Zerg invade Protoss space with new psychic weapons. Do things like steal khaydarin crystals, hunt dark templar, plunder ancient ruins, etc. Protoss fight brief civil war due to fear of dark templar. Meanwhile, Terrans are still fighting Zerg and experiencing civil strife.
Brood Wars: Last ditch Protoss assault kills the Overmind. Zerg go crazy and what brain monsters survive fight for dominance. Terrans and Protoss fight back.
Post-Brood Wars: Overmind returns and prioritizes survival over perfection. Timeline does not detail this period.

To answer your question: Enumerate. It is everything I ever wanted in Starcraft. I actually was writing something almost identical before I stumbled upon it. It saved me a load of time.

Why are you calling out Phinney's backstory? You should be giving your appropriate dues and referring to Enumerate's actual creator, ToxicDefiler.I thought I did that multiple times. Enumerate is one implementation of the Phinneyverse; not the only possibility, but the only one written.

Admirable as the intent is and being detailed as it is, it still is fanon at the end of the day and people will either take it or leave it. You can say it's supposed to be the canon as much as you want but it's all just fanon and should be appreciated as such. I like a good alternative take on things but I'm under no illusions that it is more than just that. Don't get surprised or offended just because people don't want to talk about your favoured fanon nor want to consider it seriously.I said it is an alternate universe, which I think is better than canon because I think canon is small world bullshit. The entire point of this thread was to get people interested. I am only offended that so many people replied only to naysay.

Also, what the heck is "fanon"? Is that a synonym for fanfiction?

Why so serious? We're just throwing around opinions and having fun (at least I am at any rate). It's a forum for sharing ideas, not for stressing over. You really need some help dude.I want people to get interested in writing stories for what I consider the best iteration of Starcraft lore, tailor made for custom campaigns. Almost every reply has been naysaying based on trivialities like "Kerry is the main character", "I am too lazy to read a simple timeline" or "Do not bother writing fanfiction."

I am sorry I did not say it before, but I would like to thank you for at least skimming over the timeline. Your previous complaint about the Protoss not having their own timeline is entirely valid, and author ToxicDefiler admits he finds the Protoss to be boring. I have difficulty think up a timeline for them that is not an extract of entries from the Zerg timeline, though, since it is fairly comprehensive and even mentions they have a brief civil war.

This discussion has been terribly and pointlessly exhausting. If I hear about Kerry Sue one more time I will go ballistic! I am going to take a long break from this fandom.

Nissa

11-21-2017, 12:48 PM

I am sick of hearing about those characters! Canon is small world bullshit and it should be clear by now that I do not give a crap. Starcraft should not have main characters because it is about a galactic war that spans hundreds of worlds and billions of people. All of the various side stories that have been published over the years are vastly more interesting because they are down-to-earth and do not privilege any single viewpoint character over others.

Uh...what did I say about those characters? I am merely pointing out their existence. Also, in writing, there is always a "viewpoint character", someone through whom the story is shown. Meaning, whoever we hang out with as a player is, at least temporarily, a main character. Also, as for as much as you whine about it, the events of the K Sector all hinged on the actions of Raynor/Kerri/Mengskiepoo. No matter what story you're talking about, there are going to be characters like this.

Are you saying that the various side stories are more interesting than canon? That's what it sounds like you're saying. I disagree, at least as far as it concerns the manual and SC/BW. Sucky fanfiction is abundant and free.

So...what I take from this is that you really, really hate canon, are incapable of separating SC1 from SC2, and expect us to feel the same way as you do. Okey pokey, Hokey.

To answer your question: Enumerate. It is everything I ever wanted in Starcraft. I actually was writing something almost identical before I stumbled upon it. It saved me a load of time.

It's official; you're no writer. Writers seek to create their own stories, their own viewpoint, even if it's within the construct of a specific universe. It appears now that all you wanted was a non-Kerri Starcraft, not the opportunity to tell a story your own way. Thus, Enumerate solves your problem without you having to show any creativity, or add something only you can add to it. It's easy enough to summarize an alternate Starcraft, but if you're not willing to actually write it, why should I care?

Oh, and "fanon" is the contrast to "canon". "Canon" is what counts, and "fanon" is what a given fan/group of fans think should have happened. For example, my fanon is the complete abandonment of anything past BW, other than the downloadable missions.

I like this idea, too. I like the idea of DT's not even having a homeworld/Shakuras to begin with!

Actually, I like the idea of the DTs having a "homeworld." Not so much as an Aiur analogue, but just something like a planetary waystation. Like, most of the DTs would be scattered among the stars or protecting Aiur (ala Zeratul's claims), but they would have a place for the older people to settle down, to construct more ships, and just generally to serve as a place of rest and learning between their travels.

ragnarok

11-21-2017, 01:25 PM

Oh, and "fanon" is the contrast to "canon". "Canon" is what counts, and "fanon" is what a given fan/group of fans think should have happened. For example, my fanon is the complete abandonment of anything past BW, other than the downloadable missions.

Tell me something Nissa, with regards to the downloadable missions, which one did you think had the best potential to continue the storyline? (Because I never paid attention to them, so I'm curious)

Mislagnissa

11-21-2017, 01:56 PM

Uh...what did I say about those characters? I am merely pointing out their existence. Also, in writing, there is always a "viewpoint character", someone through whom the story is shown. Meaning, whoever we hang out with as a player is, at least temporarily, a main character. Also, as for as much as you whine about it, the events of the K Sector all hinged on the actions of Raynor/Kerri/Mengskiepoo. No matter what story you're talking about, there are going to be characters like this.

Are you saying that the various side stories are more interesting than canon? That's what it sounds like you're saying. I disagree, at least as far as it concerns the manual and SC/BW. Sucky fanfiction is abundant and free.

So...what I take from this is that you really, really hate canon, are incapable of separating SC1 from SC2, and expect us to feel the same way as you do. Okey pokey, Hokey.

It's official; you're no writer. Writers seek to create their own stories, their own viewpoint, even if it's within the construct of a specific universe. It appears now that all you wanted was a non-Kerri Starcraft, not the opportunity to tell a story your own way. Thus, Enumerate solves your problem without you having to show any creativity, or add something only you can add to it. It's easy enough to summarize an alternate Starcraft, but if you're not willing to actually write it, why should I care?

Oh, and "fanon" is the contrast to "canon". "Canon" is what counts, and "fanon" is what a given fan/group of fans think should have happened. For example, my fanon is the complete abandonment of anything past BW, other than the downloadable missions.

Actually, I like the idea of the DTs having a "homeworld." Not so much as an Aiur analogue, but just something like a planetary waystation. Like, most of the DTs would be scattered among the stars or protecting Aiur (ala Zeratul's claims), but they would have a place for the older people to settle down, to construct more ships, and just generally to serve as a place of rest and learning between their travels.
This will be the last post I will make for a long time. So I will be brief, but I have to correct you.

By side stories I am referring to the published novels, anthologies and comics. Not fanfiction.

Yes, all I ever wanted was a Starcraft without Queen of Blades. Because of her, the Zerg have no higher aspirations. Even Abathur and Dehaka are short-sighted morons. The Zerg's quest for perfection and their hunt for the determinant was the only reason for the three races to interact. Now all the conflicts feel fake and forced. There's no way to salvage that, hence why I fell in love with Enumerate.

I have no idea what possessed you to reply to my thread given your clear and constant hostility. Thank you for being so rude and unhelpful. It gave me the strength to finally leave this forum.

sandwich_bird

11-21-2017, 07:32 PM

Because of her, the Zerg have no higher aspirations. Even Abathur and Dehaka are short-sighted morons.

The Zerg's quest for perfection and their hunt for the determinant was the only reason for the three races to interact.

Abathur's only purpose is perfection...

Anyways, going back to Enumerate, apart from the fact that:

-it arbitrarily removes all kind of major plot point
-It's a dry fanon encyclopedia presented without any story to at least sell the product

It's also:

-Very restrictive because of how extensive it is
-In my opinion, a lot of the new stuff added isn't particularly good/interesting or has any reason to exist

For example, the scourge can now attack ground (which would be super OP) but must be attached to overlords(wtf?).

Or this

A heavily armoured Protoss with an armour three times as heavy as the Protoss that wears it, the Boros Warrior is a proud race of pole-armed warriors, being one of the first tribes that was not of Lenassa Origin to join the unity against the Zerg.

[...]

Talent: Great Curved Sword: Carrying massive weapons, these great curved swords are the size of the wielder itself. Capable of breaking enemies with the force and strength of body and mind, the Boros Warrior is able to imbue the Sword with enough kinetic energy to tear Neosteel like butter.

Yeah... I really don't want cliche heavy Protoss units like these. That's how you turn starcraft into a Saturday morning cartoon. I'm sure Samwise would love making shits like these though

https://orig00.deviantart.net/ec36/f/2016/183/0/2/q1_by_funzee-da8h3la.jpg

(Overwatch fan art. Good drawing, leave it out of Starcraft..)

Gradius

11-21-2017, 07:39 PM

I am only offended that so many people replied only to naysay.

Almost every reply has been naysaying based on trivialities like "Kerry is the main character", "I am too lazy to read a simple timeline" or "Do not bother writing fanfiction."
What the heck are you talking about? Who's naysaying? I'm pretty sure everyone likes it, we're just confused what you expect us to do with it since it's just going to be forgotten like it was 2 years ago and there is not yet a single actual story that was constructed with it...

This discussion has been terribly and pointlessly exhausting. If I hear about Kerry Sue one more time I will go ballistic! I am going to take a long break from this fandom.
It just sounds like you need a break from the internet. Go outside, lower your blood pressure, start meditating, etc. Not everyone is obligated to hate what you hate, which so far for you seems to be every StarCraft game.

Turalyon

11-21-2017, 10:48 PM

Also, what the heck is "fanon"? Is that a synonym for fanfiction?

It's fanciful stuff you make up in your own head. It's also called "headcanon".

I want people to get interested in writing stories for what I consider the best iteration of Starcraft lore, tailor made for custom campaigns. Almost every reply has been naysaying based on trivialities like "Kerry is the main character", "I am too lazy to read a simple timeline" or "Do not bother writing fanfiction."

If you want to discuss the pros and cons of a particular fanon and are open to all opinions, I'm all for it (it's all we really have now anyway what with the state of Sc lore being not worth the time investing in anymore). Just don't expect people to agree with you all the time nor to do what you want of them.

Because of her, the Zerg have no higher aspirations.

This could also be because, like, you know, the Overmind dying and all...:p

The Zerg's quest for perfection and their hunt for the determinant was the only reason for the three races to interact. Now all the conflicts feel fake and forced. There's no way to salvage that, hence why I fell in love with Enumerate.

I get that you like how complete the Zerg are as a concept, prior to Kerrigan. That aspect of them is one of the reasons why Zerg are my favourite lorewise. However, I also understand that this is also what makes them a bit staid to write further and engaging stories about. It's partly why I said in that other thread that I felt having conflicting personalities of significant consequence within the Zerg as being counter-intuitive to what the Zerg are about. Instead of retconning the Zerg nature to having meaningful, human-like internal conflict all along, which would feel "unrealistic" on a Watsonian level, the only realistic way to introduce that is to mix it up with an actual human in their midst.

I have a greater appreciation of it now upon realising that the Zerg's initial quest and hunt for the determinant is, objectively, really nothing more but a pipe-dream. That the determinant (Kerrigan in this case) and the acquisition of it was what led to the Overminds eventual defeat is unexpected and subtle but a really nice subversion that fits tonally/thematically with the greyness and cynicism that is Starcraft. It's kinda grand that not even a lovecraftian, god-like entity with immense power at it disposal can escape being shat on from on high.

I have no idea what possessed you to reply to my thread given your clear and constant hostility.

Nissa, hostile? What about me? I think Nissa's accused me of this once, too! :D

Actually, I like the idea of the DTs having a "homeworld." Not so much as an Aiur analogue, but just something like a planetary waystation. Like, most of the DTs would be scattered among the stars or protecting Aiur (ala Zeratul's claims), but they would have a place for the older people to settle down, to construct more ships, and just generally to serve as a place of rest and learning between their travels.

Yeah, this is pretty much what I meant. Shakuras feels like just another Aiur but with a Dark Templar colour scheme rather than something a nomadic group of people would be expected to have.

Nissa

11-22-2017, 10:36 AM

Yeah, this is pretty much what I meant. Shakuras feels like just another Aiur but with a Dark Templar colour scheme rather than something a nomadic group of people would be expected to have.

To be fair, Shakuras was never developed. I don't think it was portrayed like Aiur was, because it wasn't portrayed at all. For all we know, it's just a place with some Dark Templar and a temple. Nobody ever talks about cities, or living spaces, or whatever about it. SC2 aside, of course. Honestly, it makes sense if it was mostly empty, because then Zeratul would have less issue with DTs objecting to the presence of Khalai Protoss, and less to worry about with the Zerg following them.

Mags, I'd care more about your "hostile" label if you didn't completely misinterpret everything I and the others have been saying. "Disagree" and "hostile" are two different things. I'm not mad at you at all, though. It's just that I'd rather talk about the details of Enumerate with you rather than read ~100 pages of stuff I'm not convinced I need to care about. Tell me why I should care. Tell me about the kind of stories that the Enumerate universe can have. Talk about certain characters you want to create/develop more. Don't just point to a link and say, "Care about this stuff!"

Turalyon

11-22-2017, 08:41 PM

To be fair, Shakuras was never developed. I don't think it was portrayed like Aiur was, because it wasn't portrayed at all. For all we know, it's just a place with some Dark Templar and a temple. Nobody ever talks about cities, or living spaces, or whatever about it. SC2 aside, of course. Honestly, it makes sense if it was mostly empty, because then Zeratul would have less issue with DTs objecting to the presence of Khalai Protoss, and less to worry about with the Zerg following them.

Eh, from what we get in the game only, no-one talks about cities or living spaces on Aiur either. We only know it's built up and densely populated because it's all in the backstory, we see several locations ingame and that it's labelled as the homeworld. Shakuras, too, is referred to as the DT's secret homeworld at least once, by Zeratul no less. The connotation, of the word "homeworld" suggests at least some form of significant established and permanent thing. Also, there's at least three major Shakuras landmarks mentioned in BW that sound like cities or imply a sense of permanance/established civilization: the populated area around the Xe'Naga Temple (which, strangely, is never given a name), New Antioch (which contains the seemingly significant structure "Executor's Citadel") and Talemetros (a power plant of sorts).

Finally, if they were true nomads and treated Shakuras as nothing more than a waystation, the DT wouldn't have bothered to go to the lengths they did in trying to rid that world of Zerg in the first place. I mean, they're nomads, the very definition of the word means they have no permanent home/ties to the place nor should they call/treat any one place as such.

Mags, I'd care more about your "hostile" label if you didn't completely misinterpret everything I and the others have been saying. "Disagree" and "hostile" are two different things. I'm not mad at you at all, though. It's just that I'd rather talk about the details of Enumerate with you rather than read ~100 pages of stuff I'm not convinced I need to care about. Tell me why I should care. Tell me about the kind of stories that the Enumerate universe can have. Talk about certain characters you want to create/develop more. Don't just point to a link and say, "Care about this stuff!"

Too late. He's "picked up his ball and gone home", I think. You're a meanie, Nissa. :p:p:p

Nissa

11-23-2017, 03:11 PM

Turalyon

11-23-2017, 07:47 PM

I like how the one chick disagreeing with him is the "meanie" and y'all aren't. Anyway, maybe I got too much on his case about writing. Writing is something I take very seriously, and he's all talking about something else when he could be creating something of his own? Puh-lease.

Relax, I was kidding. I disagreed with his interpretation of certain things as well and I called him out as being a bit entitled, too. He was a bit too serious though and often conflated his subjective bias as being objective.

I disagree. Even if Shakuras is a waystation, why wouldn't they want to protect it? I assume they set up there because they wanted to be reasonably close to Aiur (again, Zeratul's claims), and if it's a planet with a Xel'Naga temple, well, there's no replacing something like that. Just because you're a nomad doesn't mean that you're going to give up something. That's like expecting desert nomads to forego an oasis that's been occupied by their people for centuries.

I didn't say they wouldn't want to protect it but rather questioned the merits vs the lengths/costs/consequences they would have to endure in order to protect it. If things were looking bad, a space nomad wouldn't be so tied to one place that they'd sacrifice their well-being to keep staying there. They'd just pick up stakes and go elsewhere cos "home" is wherever you want it to be and the universe is huge...

It was plain to see in The Stand that Shakuras was going to hell in a Zerg handbasket and the solution involved devastating the planet and any inhabitants who couldn't make it inside the Temple after risking life and limb to get crystals guarded by some of the most dangerous adversaries around at the time. To protect this "waystation" to the extent they did is more than what I would expect from a group of supposed nomads.

Yes, while "homeworld" does connotate some form of permanence, there's no reason to assume that this means "lots of cities", "highways throughout the countryside", or "major industrial production centers." It means that they consider this world home. Even when us earthlings were lived in less technological times, Earth was still our homeworld. "Homeworld" is not a level of technology.

Yeah, but this doesn't disguise the fact that Shakuras has large establishments along that planet that would be considered cities or at least make it a a colony. They have an area that is designed to be a massive network of power plants (Talemetros). I wouldn't expect to see something like this on a "nomad waystation".

Also, since you've agreed that the use of the world "homeworld" infers some degree of permanance and that Zeratuls calls Shakuras their homeworld, this implies they're not nomads because a nomad has no permanent home nor stays in the same place for long.

Of course, the angle at which it doesn't make sense is the fact that Aiur should still be the DT homeworld, because it was the world they first called home (much like how the K Sector Terrans should still be considering Earth the homeworld). The only excuse I can see for this is the Xel'Naga temple. Maybe the Xel'Naga being there makes it kinda homey, or something.

Well, Zeratul still considers Aiur to be the homeworld of all Protoss (and the significance and meaning that comes with that) and does what he can to try and protect it even though he has not set foot on it in ages. I can understand his devotion to that - but for Shakuras? I don't get it either.

I wouldn't think that it'd be the Xel'Naga Temple keeping them there because the DT's are free-spirits and ancestors of those who gave rise to the Aeon of Strife - you know, those who yearned to be free and independent from controlling forces like the Xel'Naga (and subsequently the Protoss on Aiur who follow the Khala) their ancestors rebelled against. I can only imagine that as a waystation, Shakuras had some utility as a crossing/meeting point for DTs that passed through the area but not any kind of sentimental pull. Maybe.

Nissa

11-26-2017, 02:44 PM

Relax, I was kidding. I disagreed with his interpretation of certain things as well and I called him out as being a bit entitled, too. He was a bit too serious though and often conflated his subjective bias as being objective.

I am relaxed. I'm not mad, just more "rolling my eyes" in tone. Yeah, I was basically telling him he was treating his opinion as objective, but ah...I'm fairly confident he wasn't reading more than 1/3 of anything I posted.

I didn't say they wouldn't want to protect it but rather questioned the merits vs the lengths/costs/consequences they would have to endure in order to protect it. If things were looking bad, a space nomad wouldn't be so tied to one place that they'd sacrifice their well-being to keep staying there. They'd just pick up stakes and go elsewhere cos "home" is wherever you want it to be and the universe is huge...

Again, Xel'Naga Temple. Honestly, I don't think the definition "nomad" hinges too much on having a like for a certain location. The Dark Templar are a collection of various people with various opinions, and just because they more or less agree on the Khala (that life shouldn't be strictly lived by it) doesn't mean they agree on other things. I don't necessarily see them wanting to defend Shakuras as a flaw or character deviation for them.

It was plain to see in The Stand that Shakuras was going to hell in a Zerg handbasket and the solution involved devastating the planet and any inhabitants who couldn't make it inside the Temple after risking life and limb to get crystals guarded by some of the most dangerous adversaries around at the time. To protect this "waystation" to the extent they did is more than what I would expect from a group of supposed nomads.

I guess, but it's not without reason. That, and I think it's kind of a plothole. It's pretty clear that Blizzard never intended that this temple would devastate the entire surface of Shakuras, because Raszagal was later kidnapped from Shakuras, and the pylon cluster indicates that not all Protoss technology was destroyed in the usage of the temple. It may be that while the effects of the temple impacted the whole planet (the cutscene), it didn't necessarily kill everyone on the planet who wasn't in the temple, provided they were a larger distance away. Perhaps pylons or other Protoss energies could protect settlements, hence why the pylon cluster survived.

Actually, I think the devastating effects of the temple prove Shakuras was closer to a waystation than otherwise. After all, if you're putting a planet at risk, wouldn't it be best if it were one with smaller populations/settlement?

Yeah, but this doesn't disguise the fact that Shakuras has large establishments along that planet that would be considered cities or at least make it a a colony. They have an area that is designed to be a massive network of power plants (Talemetros). I wouldn't expect to see something like this on a "nomad waystation".

The only thing we know from BW is that it has the power plants on Talemetros. We do not know that it has cities. It makes perfect sense for a DT planet to have a place where they can manufacture ships for long-distance travel. After all, these aren't African travelers in the Sahara, these are advanced beings going through the void of space, visiting planets over extreme distances which are very unlikely to be able to support any form of life. They need to be prepared, and that's going to involve the manufacture of more/better technology than a planetary nomad, who can either trade or work with wilderness to survive.

In other words, Protoss nomads need not be fully analogous to human ones.

Well, Zeratul still considers Aiur to be the homeworld of all Protoss (and the significance and meaning that comes with that) and does what he can to try and protect it even though he has not set foot on it in ages. I can understand his devotion to that - but for Shakuras? I don't get it either.

I wouldn't think that it'd be the Xel'Naga Temple keeping them there because the DT's are free-spirits and ancestors of those who gave rise to the Aeon of Strife - you know, those who yearned to be free and independent from controlling forces like the Xel'Naga (and subsequently the Protoss on Aiur who follow the Khala) their ancestors rebelled against. I can only imagine that as a waystation, Shakuras had some utility as a crossing/meeting point for DTs that passed through the area but not any kind of sentimental pull. Maybe.

Again, Xel'Naga temple. That has both sentimental and scientific value. It may be possible that Shakuras was once a settlement for the Xel'Naga, and the DT want to understand that.

One of my problems with SC2/its novels was that it didn't really make clear the relationship between the DTs and how they felt about the Xel'Naga. I've always imagined that the DTs were always mildly suspicious of the XN, because the XN passed down Khalai tradition. But then came the SC2 retcons, which plastered over old canon and ignored this issue. Pffft.

Turalyon

11-26-2017, 09:24 PM

Honestly, I don't think the definition "nomad" hinges too much on having a like for a certain location. The Dark Templar are a collection of various people with various opinions, and just because they more or less agree on the Khala (that life shouldn't be strictly lived by it) doesn't mean they agree on other things. I don't necessarily see them wanting to defend Shakuras as a flaw or character deviation for them.

Never said that being nomad would mean they can't have a preference for "things" or doing so would be a flaw/character deviation. Just that it's odd and doesn't meet up with the inferred expectation of how the DT were based on their background (as being nomads and all).

I guess, but it's not without reason. That, and I think it's kind of a plothole. It's pretty clear that Blizzard never intended that this temple would devastate the entire surface of Shakuras, because Raszagal was later kidnapped from Shakuras, and the pylon cluster indicates that not all Protoss technology was destroyed in the usage of the temple. It may be that while the effects of the temple impacted the whole planet (the cutscene), it didn't necessarily kill everyone on the planet who wasn't in the temple, provided they were a larger distance away. Perhaps pylons or other Protoss energies could protect settlements, hence why the pylon cluster survived.

I kinda figured the effect was like a neutron bomb - minimal damage to structures (relative and compared to a normal bomb) but maximum damage to living organisms. As to the effect having to be world-wide, well, I would of thought it'd have to be given the Zerg are so OP that even any remaining trace of them would just mean they'd grow back and become an issue again.

Maybe the bomb was limited to Zerg, as it was with the artifacts in Sc2, but we're led to believe that it affects Protoss because they wouldn't have urged to seek shelter within the Temple before setting it off. Maybe they just don't know it only and conveniently affects Zerg. You never know with magic "I win" button plot devices.

Actually, I think the devastating effects of the temple prove Shakuras was closer to a waystation than otherwise. After all, if you're putting a planet at risk, wouldn't it be best if it were one with smaller populations/settlement?

Again, Xel'Naga temple. That has both sentimental and scientific value. It may be possible that Shakuras was once a settlement for the Xel'Naga, and the DT want to understand that.

I'll grant you that. Still, the amount of effort used and life lost just to protect a waystation/something of relatively minor sentimental value (as opposed to a bonafide homeworld) seems a bit askew to justify if they are indeed supposed to be "nomads". They had to go on a wild-goose chase with their sworn enemy in order to protect it afterall!

The only thing we know from BW is that it has the power plants on Talemetros. We do not know that it has cities. It makes perfect sense for a DT planet to have a place where they can manufacture ships for long-distance travel.

The definition of "city" is somewhat nebulous in this regard and whether having such a thing is a minimal requirement/the metric for it to be labelled a "homeworld" is minutiae. What's important is that the presence of a power-plant, manufacturing centres, citadels etc denotes a consistent, well-developed and permanent presence on the planet at all times. This is what is at odds with what one would expect from "space nomads" (the Quarians of Mass Effect are a good comparison).

Keep in mind, that I don't have a problem with the DTs actually having a homeworld per se or that they eventually decided to change their mind and made Shakuras into a homeworld. I'm just making a point that it seems a bit odd (not wrong or unfeasible etc) for them to have a homeworld when they're supposedly nomads.

One of my problems with SC2/its novels was that it didn't really make clear the relationship between the DTs and how they felt about the Xel'Naga. I've always imagined that the DTs were always mildly suspicious of the XN, because the XN passed down Khalai tradition. But then came the SC2 retcons, which plastered over old canon and ignored this issue. Pffft.

My fanon is that they have inherent distrust of the Xel'Naga because of what you said about them being representative and somewhat, the instigator of what became the institution that exiled them in the first place. Afterall, the DTs are essentially the ancestors of the Protoss who incited the Aeon of Strife and, in some regard, who wished to cling onto the independence and ego driven freedom they had enjoyed (despite the risk and harm such thinking did during that time) after the AoS ended.

Nissa

11-27-2017, 12:29 PM

Never said that being nomad would mean they can't have a preference for "things" or doing so would be a flaw/character deviation. Just that it's odd and doesn't meet up with the inferred expectation of how the DT were based on their background (as being nomads and all).

Honestly, I don't see the contradiction. Even nomads have settlements they hang onto. These settlements might change after a while, but they won't, generally, because it's a lot of work t move the very young and the very old.

I kinda figured the effect was like a neutron bomb - minimal damage to structures (relative and compared to a normal bomb) but maximum damage to living organisms. As to the effect having to be world-wide, well, I would of thought it'd have to be given the Zerg are so OP that even any remaining trace of them would just mean they'd grow back and become an issue again.

Maybe the bomb was limited to Zerg, as it was with the artifacts in Sc2, but we're led to believe that it affects Protoss because they wouldn't have urged to seek shelter within the Temple before setting it off. Maybe they just don't know it only and conveniently affects Zerg. You never know with magic "I win" button plot devices.

Yeah, that's the problem with how the temple was portrayed. I like to imagine that the temple has more going on for it then just being a giant weapon, but it was really used as a magic, get-out-of-plot-trouble device.

I'll grant you that. Still, the amount of effort used and life lost just to protect a waystation/something of relatively minor sentimental value (as opposed to a bonafide homeworld) seems a bit askew to justify if they are indeed supposed to be "nomads". They had to go on a wild-goose chase with their sworn enemy in order to protect it afterall!

"Relatively minor sentimental value"? You're talking about a temple that is a part of Protoss history, that could potentially help them understand their past, their creators, and, potentially, the Zerg. After all, because the Xel'Naga created the Zerg too, learning about them automatically counts as learning about the enemy. Even if that wasn't the case, this is an important artifact. It's more than just an old, ruined castle in the moor, it's a key to the Protoss understanding themselves. They aren't abandoning nomadism to stay there. They've reached a goal of nomadism: to find something worth staying for.

The definition of "city" is somewhat nebulous in this regard and whether having such a thing is a minimal requirement/the metric for it to be labelled a "homeworld" is minutiae. What's important is that the presence of a power-plant, manufacturing centres, citadels etc denotes a consistent, well-developed and permanent presence on the planet at all times. This is what is at odds with what one would expect from "space nomads" (the Quarians of Mass Effect are a good comparison).

Keep in mind, that I don't have a problem with the DTs actually having a homeworld per se or that they eventually decided to change their mind and made Shakuras into a homeworld. I'm just making a point that it seems a bit odd (not wrong or unfeasible etc) for them to have a homeworld when they're supposedly nomads.

Was it really all that odd? I personally don't think so. If Zeratul has continually been protecting Aiur, then clearly Shakuras as a base of operations makes sense.

My fanon is that they have inherent distrust of the Xel'Naga because of what you said about them being representative and somewhat, the instigator of what became the institution that exiled them in the first place. Afterall, the DTs are essentially the ancestors of the Protoss who incited the Aeon of Strife and, in some regard, who wished to cling onto the independence and ego driven freedom they had enjoyed (despite the risk and harm such thinking did during that time) after the AoS ended.

Yeah, that's more or less what I assumed. Blizzard...*sigh*. Don't ever read the "Dark Templar" trilogy. Besides only having only two DTs with any lines, it refused to go into any detail about what the Khala really is (other than a crystal that does a thing to the brain). It doesn't explain why the tribes were organized the way they were, whether or not the Conclave is actual Khala teaching or an idea somebody got in their heads (hence the basis for logical DT distrust), why the DTs rebelled (it has no DT character explaining -- just "Adun heard them and thought they had a point"), why the DTs felt the need to go to the degree of maiming themselves, and how the Khalai and DT have been interacting over time. It's supposed to be backstory, but ends up only outlining the things we already know, in the dumbest way possible.

Turalyon

11-27-2017, 08:46 PM

Honestly, I don't see the contradiction. Even nomads have settlements they hang onto. These settlements might change after a while, but they won't, generally, because it's a lot of work t move the very young and the very old.

Then it seems to me that you don't really see them as nomads as I do/as they are defined. Peoples who go adventuring but have a permanent settlement that they always go back to are explorers for sure, but they are not nomads.

"Relatively minor sentimental value"? You're talking about a temple that is a part of Protoss history, that could potentially help them understand their past, their creators, and, potentially, the Zerg. After all, because the Xel'Naga created the Zerg too, learning about them automatically counts as learning about the enemy. Even if that wasn't the case, this is an important artifact. It's more than just an old, ruined castle in the moor, it's a key to the Protoss understanding themselves. They aren't abandoning nomadism to stay there. They've reached a goal of nomadism: to find something worth staying for.

Yes, "relatively minor sentimental value". The DTs know all about the Xel'Naga due to their ancestors having been gifted with their presence and knowledge back then when on Aiur. They're not mysterious or "unknown" to the Protoss as all this later lore tends to suggest they are. Indeed, the Protoss who incited the Aeon of Strife (the ancestors of which are the Dark Templar) had had enough of the Xel'Naga and rejected them by pursuing their own goals - which was ironically, due in part to the "enlightenment" the Xel'Naga brought them in the first place. You would think the DTs would have no reverence to the Xel'Naga and the institutionalised way of thinking that came with their teachings since it bears itself out when they oppose the Khala Protoss later on.

This is not to say they won't still have a fascination about Xel'Nagan technology if they come across it, but they won't go to the lengths they did just to protect it. I mean, there could be other Xel'Naga tech in the galaxy. It's not as if they don't have the spirit of an adventurer to go looking for those if they wanted to. Why is this one on Shakuras so special? It could be exactly as you said, but we don't know that because it's importance as plot device trumps everything else. I'd rather not make the assumption that they're limited in this way because it whiffs of immersion-breaking Doylist/out-of-universe tendencies.

Was it really all that odd? I personally don't think so.

I didn't say "really odd", I said a "bit odd". I thought there was a difference? :p

If Zeratul has continually been protecting Aiur, then clearly Shakuras as a base of operations makes sense.

Not really. It's not defined how he goes about protecting Aiur (or how the DT's would go about it) nor whether that specifically refers to protection via martial forces of any number. He could be going at it alone or speaking about it in metaphor or generalisation (Aiur doesn't really need the DTs to protect itself), so the conclusion that he must and only have a homeworld called Shakuras to help him is not an assured inference.

Yeah, that's more or less what I assumed. Blizzard...*sigh*. Don't ever read the "Dark Templar" trilogy. Besides only having only two DTs with any lines, it refused to go into any detail about what the Khala really is (other than a crystal that does a thing to the brain). It doesn't explain why the tribes were organized the way they were, whether or not the Conclave is actual Khala teaching or an idea somebody got in their heads (hence the basis for logical DT distrust), why the DTs rebelled (it has no DT character explaining -- just "Adun heard them and thought they had a point"), why the DTs felt the need to go to the degree of maiming themselves, and how the Khalai and DT have been interacting over time. It's supposed to be backstory, but ends up only outlining the things we already know, in the dumbest way possible.

Don't worry, I don't ever plan to read it. I kinda pride myself in saying that I've never touched any of the EU novels and never will.

Those things you mentioned are actually touched on in the manual, so I have no idea why one would need to seek explanations (or re-explanations/retcons in this case?) for such in a novel that comes way after the fact:

1) The Khala, the Path of Ascension, is a theory propositioned by Khas. It was "primarily meant to define a rigid system of behaviour".

2) The tribes are organised that way, despite being arranged into Judicator, Templar and Khalai castes, to "remind the Protoss of the follies of their past". The system imposed by the Khala meant that the tribal separatism and differences had no effect/threat on them anymore.

3) The Conclave is just an assembly of Protoss elders to represent the head of the Judicator caste. The caste system was part of the rigid system of behaviour that the Khala defined. This system was developed from a theory developed by Khas.

4) The DT's were not in open revolt/activists against the establishment ("not hostile or militant"), they were just ideologically opposed to the Khala. They feared that "their individual identities would be erased to further promote Judicator rule" (in other words, they feared "The Man"). The Conclave was very in much in active opposition against them though since they wanted to "eradicate the dissidents".

5) The DT's cutting of their nerve cords was a symbolic act to "show their disdain for the Conclave and its Judicator lackeys". It was done specifically after being forcibly exiled from Aiur by the Conclave.

6) There's constant animosity over the DT as far as Khala Protoss are concerned from that point on. Point 5 was "a tale, above all others, that worked to incriminate the vagabond warriors for all time". The DTs were "hunted and feared" as such.

Nissa

11-28-2017, 03:58 PM

Then it seems to me that you don't really see them as nomads as I do/as they are defined. Peoples who go adventuring but have a permanent settlement that they always go back to are explorers for sure, but they are not nomads.

It's plenty possible for there to be more than one DT faction. It is also plenty possible for nomads to circle around the same general areas for a longer time. For example, they might have a regular winter stop-off. Nomads don't always leave a place and then never come back.

Yes, "relatively minor sentimental value". The DTs know all about the Xel'Naga due to their ancestors having been gifted with their presence and knowledge back then when on Aiur. They're not mysterious or "unknown" to the Protoss as all this later lore tends to suggest they are. Indeed, the Protoss who incited the Aeon of Strife (the ancestors of which are the Dark Templar) had had enough of the Xel'Naga and rejected them by pursuing their own goals - which was ironically, due in part to the "enlightenment" the Xel'Naga brought them in the first place. You would think the DTs would have no reverence to the Xel'Naga and the institutionalised way of thinking that came with their teachings since it bears itself out when they oppose the Khala Protoss later on.

Xel'Naga "not mysterious or unknown" -- assumption on your part, not fact. This is not a retcon, either. It was stated that Khas' real name was lost to time over the years in the manual, so it's very, very likely that much Xel'Naga knowledge was lost to time/retconned by an over-eager Conclave. That's even assuming the early Protoss got to know the Xel'Naga at any deep level while the Xel'Naga were present.

"know all about" -- assumption on your part. Also, incorrect. Given that they discovered that the Xel'Naga created the Zerg because of Zeratul's interaction with the Overmind, there's plenty about the Xel'Naga they would have had no idea about. There's possibly even some Khalai 'Toss that are so stuck with their notions of how they think the Xel'Naga were (as opposed to what they truly were, which the DT would have been trying to discover at Shakuras' temple).

Don't call fanon canon, Mags...I mean, Tura. ;)

Heck --
a. The Xel'Naga manipulated the Protoss as a race.
b. The Protoss cannot manipulate other races in the same way.
a + b. There are many mysteries and powers the Xel'Naga had that are worth learning about.
c. The Xel'Naga created the Zerg. Therefore learning about them is automatically learning about the Zerg.

[/quote]This is not to say they won't still have a fascination about Xel'Nagan technology if they come across it, but they won't go to the lengths they did just to protect it. I mean, there could be other Xel'Naga tech in the galaxy. It's not as if they don't have the spirit of an adventurer to go looking for those if they wanted to. Why is this one on Shakuras so special? It could be exactly as you said, but we don't know that because it's importance as plot device trumps everything else. I'd rather not make the assumption that they're limited in this way because it whiffs of immersion-breaking Doylist/out-of-universe tendencies.[/quote]

Stop saying "Doylist" and such. Not all of us have taken philosophy classes. :P

"... importance as a plot device trumps everything else"? What are you talking about? In what way is this statement even slightly true? There's no such thing as "trump" in storytelling. That's like saying that the High Templar's psi storm trumps the story element of High Templar being specialized psychic units. Just because the temple has a function doesn't mean that this is the only function, or that it has parts that are unrelated to function, such as a snippet of Xel'Naga language carved on some walls.

I didn't say "really odd", I said a "bit odd". I thought there was a difference? :p

Is english not your first language? "Is it really all that odd" is just an expression. I'm not saying you said "really odd", I'm just starting my sentence with "Is it really."

Not really. It's not defined how he goes about protecting Aiur (or how the DT's would go about it) nor whether that specifically refers to protection via martial forces of any number. He could be going at it alone or speaking about it in metaphor or generalisation (Aiur doesn't [I]really need the DTs to protect itself), so the conclusion that he must and only have a homeworld called Shakuras to help him is not an assured inference.

I was stating that using Shakuras as a waystation makes sense, not that we for sure know that it happened that way.

Don't worry, I don't ever plan to read it. I kinda pride myself in saying that I've never touched any of the EU novels and never will.

If you're bored, try SC Ghost: Nova or Speed of Darkness. Those are as close to good as any Blizz novels get. Some people like Liberty's Crusade, but I'm not eager to accept a retelling of the original SC Terran missions with bad OC as the main character.

Those things you mentioned are actually touched on in the manual, so I have no idea why one would need to seek explanations (or re-explanations/retcons in this case?) for such in a novel that comes way after the fact:

1) The Khala, the Path of Ascension, is a theory propositioned by Khas. It was "primarily meant to define a rigid system of behaviour".

2) The tribes are organised that way, despite being arranged into Judicator, Templar and Khalai castes, to "remind the Protoss of the follies of their past". The system imposed by the Khala meant that the tribal separatism and differences had no effect/threat on them anymore.

3) The Conclave is just an assembly of Protoss elders to represent the head of the Judicator caste. The caste system was part of the rigid system of behaviour that the Khala defined. This system was developed from a theory developed by Khas.

4) The DT's were not in open revolt/activists against the establishment ("not hostile or militant"), they were just ideologically opposed to the Khala. They feared that "their individual identities would be erased to further promote Judicator rule" (in other words, they feared "The Man"). The Conclave was very in much in active opposition against them though since they wanted to "eradicate the dissidents".

5) The DT's cutting of their nerve cords was a symbolic act to "show their disdain for the Conclave and its Judicator lackeys". It was done specifically after being forcibly exiled from Aiur by the Conclave.

6) There's constant animosity over the DT as far as Khala Protoss are concerned from that point on. Point 5 was "a tale, above all others, that worked to incriminate the vagabond warriors for all time". The DTs were "hunted and feared" as such.

You're answering all these questions logically, because that's how they were presented in the manual. The "Dark Templar" trilogy throws all of it out the window. Seriously, all of it. It even turns the early Protoss into "cavemen" who are amazed at something as simple as drawing in the dirt. And no, I'm not making that up.

Visions of Khas

11-28-2017, 05:05 PM

Your definition of nomad its far too strict, Tura. Pastoral and peripatetic nomads can follow routes where they visit the same lands and communities on an annual basis. Perhaps Shakuras is something of an oasis in the badlands of the sector, and Dark Templar visit there to replenish supplies, trade goods and news, allow marriages to take place to induct new blood and skills, etc.

Gradius

11-28-2017, 07:38 PM

You could say that the dark templar aren't true nomads, but that they are nomadic.

Turalyon

11-29-2017, 05:18 AM

It's plenty possible for there to be more than one DT faction. It is also plenty possible for nomads to circle around the same general areas for a longer time. For example, they might have a regular winter stop-off. Nomads don't always leave a place and then never come back.

I'm not disregarding any of this, I'm just explaining what the usual connotations the word "nomad" elicits/brings to mind if you associate the DT as such. This is in contrast to using other similar but different words to describe them, like vagrant, transient, itinerant or homeless. It's that or we could just describe them more accurately as adventurers or explorers. Whatevs dude.

Xel'Naga "not mysterious or unknown" -- assumption on your part, not fact. This is not a retcon, either.

I meant "not mysterious and unknown" in a complete way like most other "ancient aliens in sci-fiction" are often represented. The Protoss culture and technology are essentially developed initially from Xel'Naga knowledge and/or assistance (which the EU and later retcons confirmed) and due to them ingratiating themselves amongst the Protoss. They even have Khaydarin crystals (left by the Xel'Naga) that house Xel'nagan knowledge.

It was stated that Khas' real name was lost to time over the years in the manual, so it's very, very likely that much Xel'Naga knowledge was lost to time/retconned by an over-eager Conclave. That's even assuming the early Protoss got to know the Xel'Naga at any deep level while the Xel'Naga were present.

Now you're the one that's making the (greater) assumptions here. The manual implies the Protoss, in their current state, know quite a bit about the Xel'Naga at some level.

"know all about" -- assumption on your part. Also, incorrect.

It was a poor choice of words. The DTs would assume to know all about the Xel'Naga to inform their (or rather our preferred take on their) opinions of them.

Given that they discovered that the Xel'Naga created the Zerg because of Zeratul's interaction with the Overmind, there's plenty about the Xel'Naga they would have had no idea about.

Well d'uh, how would the Protoss know about the Zerg back then when they were yet to be conceived at that point in time? You assuming the Xel'Naga would've told the nascent Protoss tales about the future? It's silly enough to even consider the Xel'Naga being prescient of the future since it makes their failures even more stupid than it was originally intended. Back when the Xel'Naga were just scientists, their fault was just their metaphorical shortsightedness/myopia of the consequences of their actions. Now that they're retconned into being able to make prophecies and see the future but still monumentally cock-things up, just makes them plain ol' stupid.

Don't call fanon canon

I never did. I'm very aware that we're talking about fanon and our own interpretations/opinions. Besides, it's not that canon actually means anything significant anymore given how malleable it is.

a. The Xel'Naga manipulated the Protoss as a race.
b. The Protoss cannot manipulate other races in the same way.
a + b. There are many mysteries and powers the Xel'Naga had that are worth learning about.
c. The Xel'Naga created the Zerg. Therefore learning about them is automatically learning about the Zerg.

Your "logic" fails to consider that the Xel'naga temple on Shakuras was most likely setup before they went coreward, discovered and manipulated the Zerg. As such, that Temple would have nothing of significance about the Zerg anyway. Why you, as the audience member who's more clued in, or the Protoss themselves would assume the Temple holds information on Zerg is not justifiable in any fashion.

Stop saying "Doylist" and such. Not all of us have taken philosophy classes. :P

I've never taken philosophy classes. I'm nothing more than an "armchair philosopher" at best. Besides, the Watsonian/Doylist tags I use are just borrowed from TVtropes - it's nothing special. Be glad that I don't use the technically correct terms for Watsonian/Doylist: intradiegetic/extradiegetic!

"...[its] importance as a plot device trumps everything else"? What are you talking about? In what way is this statement even slightly true? There's no such thing as "trump" in storytelling. That's like saying that the High Templar's psi storm trumps the story element of High Templar being specialized psychic units. Just because the temple has a function doesn't mean that this is the only function, or that it has parts that are unrelated to function, such as a snippet of Xel'Naga language carved on some walls.

I was being facetious. It was me giving a sly backhander to how the Xel'Naga Temple is used overtly and as nothing more than plot device (which Sc2 takes up to eleven with its "artifacts"/Keystone) to move the narrative. It's hard to convey snideyness with just plain text sometimes.

Is english not your first language? "Is it really all that odd" is just an expression. I'm not saying you said "really odd", I'm just starting my sentence with "Is it really."

Technically, English was my second language but it quickly became my main when I was very young. Also, I was making jokes. I usually put an :p to emphasise it but it seems like it wasn't enough...

I was stating that using Shakuras as a waystation makes sense, not that we for sure know that it happened that way.

Just as I am saying that using Shakuras as a permanent homeworld makes sense, too. And perhaps moreso because they're not really nomads/we can't agree that they are nomads or not.

If you're bored, try SC Ghost: Nova or Speed of Darkness. Those are as close to good as any Blizz novels get. Some people like Liberty's Crusade, but I'm not eager to accept a retelling of the original SC Terran missions with bad OC as the main character.

Thanks but no thanks. I like the original as it is and prefer to not know the exact details behind every little thing. I like the varied applicability/interpretation that one's own experiences can bring to the work rather than the authorial intent behind a work. I don't need a more "technically correct retelling" - it kinda stifles good discussion about it. I can bring up how Sc2 is so chock-full of authorial intent - it's so boring to talk about as someone whose experienced it because there's obviously intent by the authors in the work to force you to only interpret it one way.

You're answering all these questions logically, because that's how they were presented in the manual. The "Dark Templar" trilogy throws all of it out the window. Seriously, all of it. It even turns the early Protoss into "cavemen" who are amazed at something as simple as drawing in the dirt. And no, I'm not making that up.

Eff that shiz, man. I am aware of the general retcons and vagaries of the EU on a broad level already and cringe every time.

Your definition of nomad its far too strict, Tura. Pastoral and peripatetic nomads can follow routes where they visit the same lands and communities on an annual basis. Perhaps Shakuras is something of an oasis in the badlands of the sector, and Dark Templar visit there to replenish supplies, trade goods and news, allow marriages to take place to induct new blood and skills, etc.

Definitely getting into semantics here but I'll indulge in this fancy one more time...

Am I being strict though or not strict enough? I'm using nomad in its base definition, which carries the implication of home being impermanent. They very well could be pastoral or peripatetic nomads, but it doesn't strictly refer to them as such, so I can't just naturally assume it without that specific terminology. Anyhoo, like I said earlier, I don't really discount nor have issues about the possibility of all that you've said as being the actual case, I'm just trying to explain my position so you can understand its point of view.

Visions of Khas

11-29-2017, 02:24 PM

Turalyon

11-29-2017, 09:22 PM

I just wonder why the Dark Templar tribes would be so nomadic (regardless of what degree/specific definition). Is it mere wanderlust?

I thought that this was made obvious from the get go when you look at the origins of the DT. In the beginning, they are not nomads by choice but due to exile. Because the mainline Protoss society (Khala Protoss) were gaining traction, those Protoss who would not adhere to the Khala would've been marginalised and forced to keep going out of usual Protoss space in order to find solace. Given they would have been fewer in number than the majority of other Protoss and being forced to fend for themselves from both their brethren and the unknown threats of space, the early DTs would have to keep moving to survive. If you're looking for an analogy, I imagined it would be like the situation that the Quarians in Mass Effect faced or the colonial remnants fleeing from Cylons in Battlestar Galactica.

The wanderlust (if indeed all DTs have it that is) probably came after/in time because their lifestyle first had to accommodate being forced into nomadism.

Do they obey some unknown seasons exclusive of the Void? Do different areas of space offer varying amounts of Void psi for the Dark Templar to draw on, forcing something akin to a pastoral nomadic lifestyle? If the latter, then why not all stay on Shakuras where energy is bountiful? Perhaps some tribal political tensions prevents that.

Nissa thinks the Xel'Naga Temple has something to do with what makes Shakuras special enough to be such a waystation. I don't disagree since that there's some internal consistency to it. And as far as BW seems to imply, the DT do all stay on Shakuras more or less because it is classified as their homeworld (hence the "DTs not really being nomadic" position I put forward in the first place).

Nissa

11-30-2017, 01:27 PM

Am I being strict though or not strict enough? I'm using nomad in its base definition, which carries the implication of home being impermanent. They very well could be pastoral or peripatetic nomads, but it doesn't strictly refer to them as such, so I can't just naturally assume it without that specific terminology. Anyhoo, like I said earlier, I don't really discount nor have issues about the possibility of all that you've said as being the actual case, I'm just trying to explain my position so you can understand its point of view.

I understand your point of view. And disagree with it. Somewhat. As the others said, I think you're being a bit strict, but hey, it's not all that terribly important. This argument is getting into the nitpicky/not worth it territory, as all we're really doing is trying to decide where the line gets drawn as far as "nomad" goes. Honestly, I don't think "nomad" is one of those words that has to have a definition more on the strict side. Some words do ("pregnant" for example) but there are lots of types of nomads out there, and I'm willing to believe many of them have semi-permanent settlements, or at least areas where they tend to be seasonally.

I meant "not mysterious and unknown" in a complete way like most other "ancient aliens in sci-fiction" are often represented. The Protoss culture and technology are essentially developed initially from Xel'Naga knowledge and/or assistance (which the EU and later retcons confirmed) and due to them ingratiating themselves amongst the Protoss. They even have Khaydarin crystals (left by the Xel'Naga) that house Xel'nagan knowledge.

I'm not denying that they know something about the Xel'Naga. I am denying the notion that they know "all about" the Xel'Naga. Remember, it has been a long time. Many things that have been passed down over time -- oral history, tradition, perspectives -- have been changed over time. This is evidenced by the fact that Khas' true name is now unknown. Given that they had no ability to preserve Khas' true name over time (remember, SC2 doesn't count) then there's probably a whole lot of things they weren't able to preserve over time. That's not even counting whatever traditions the Conclave might have purposely or unintentionally misrepresented, or otherwise altered/added to.

Likewise, they're not going to instantly know everything about the Xel'Naga. They aren't necessarily going to know Xel'Nagan language, symbols, science, construction, purposes, etc. Over time the anthropologists of Protoss society will figure things out, but that takes time. Also, I'm pretty sure that the whole idea of Khaydarin crystals storing Xel'Nagan memories is SC2 retcon territory. The Khaydarins were used in Protoss creation, somehow, but data storage is not their specific purpose. Even if this were the case, these crystals probably weren't left behind for the Protoss' benefit -- if the Protoss were "failures", then for what reason would the Xel'Naga let them have their information? We have no evidence that anything on a memory storage crystal is interpretable by a Protoss who doesn't have (a) the same tech as the Xel'Naga and (b) the same ability to interpret Xel'Nagan information.

The DTs would assume to know all about the Xel'Naga to inform their (or rather our preferred take on their) opinions of them.

What in the flying fudge? Why would they assume something like that? Given that they are the ones more spooked by Xel'Nagan knowledge (depending on how much they know about the Xel'Naga vs how much the Conclave/other Protoss would have interpreted Xel'Nagan remnants), they are less likely to give it a chance, and less likely to study it deeply enough to know well. Also, given that the Khaydarins and the primary Xel'Nagan temple (as well as anything else left behind) is on Aiur, the Dark Templar would value the temple on Shakuras, because it gives them the chance to understand the Xel'Naga in their exile.

Well d'uh, how would the Protoss know about the Zerg back then when they were yet to be conceived at that point in time? You assuming the Xel'Naga would've told the nascent Protoss tales about the future? It's silly enough to even consider the Xel'Naga being prescient of the future since it makes their failures even more stupid than it was originally intended. Back when the Xel'Naga were just scientists, their fault was just their metaphorical shortsightedness/myopia of the consequences of their actions. Now that they're retconned into being able to make prophecies and see the future but still monumentally cock-things up, just makes them plain ol' stupid.

Tura, you are King of Missing the Point. I wasn't saying that they would have known about the Zerg if the Xel'Naga had left information behind to that effect, I'm saying that Zeratul's interaction with the Overmind is when they discovered something they had not previously known about the Xel'Naga. Which means that there is a whole wealth of information out there about the Xel'Naga worth discovering. Even though the Zerg happened later, understanding the Xel'Naga's genetic manipulation methods may help them discover things about how Zerg manipulate other races in the process of infestation. Also, by studying old ruins, they can learn more about Xel'Nagan motives and what possibly led them to creating the Zerg.

In other words, Zeratul's discovery makes all Xel'Nagan information automatically more valuable, and proves that the Protoss don't know "all about" the Xel'naga, and that the base assumptions they have been making about Xel'Nagan activities may in fact be wrong or skewed.

I never did. I'm very aware that we're talking about fanon and our own interpretations/opinions. Besides, it's not that canon actually means anything significant anymore given how malleable it is.

Your point about canon is fair, but your assumption that the Protoss know everything about the Xel'Naga to the point where they are no longer interested in the Xel'Nagan temple as a historical artifact is fanon.

Your "logic" fails to consider that the Xel'naga temple on Shakuras was most likely setup before they went coreward, discovered and manipulated the Zerg. As such, that Temple would have nothing of significance about the Zerg anyway. Why you, as the audience member who's more clued in, or the Protoss themselves would assume the Temple holds information on Zerg is not justifiable in any fashion.

In learning about the motives or methods of the Xel'Naga, the temple is useful. In learning about the destructive power of the temple's technology, the temple is useful. In reading any Xel'Nagan writing or documentation left behind, the temple is useful.

And no, we have no evidence whatsoever that the temple was setup before "they went coreward." It may have been produced after the Protoss were declared "failures". For all we know, a remnant of the Xel'Naga formed the temple after fleeing the Zerg. Also, bear in mind that the Protoss were not the only races being played with by the Xel'Naga. It's entirely possible that some of the things they did before/alongside manipulating the Protoss later developed into techniques that would have helped with forming the Zerg.

We don't know anything about the temple, therefore the temple is potentially anything.

I've never taken philosophy classes. I'm nothing more than an "armchair philosopher" at best. Besides, the Watsonian/Doylist tags I use are just borrowed from TVtropes - it's nothing special. Be glad that I don't use the technically correct terms for Watsonian/Doylist: intradiegetic/extradiegetic!

Pffft. I'mma pull out my 1949 thesaurus if you start doing that. :D

Turalyon

12-01-2017, 05:21 AM

I understand your point of view.

Success!!

Honestly, I don't think "nomad" is one of those words that has to have a definition more on the strict side.

If a dictionary could talk, it'd most likely disagree with you. :D

Specific words have specific definitions. If the definition isn't specific, we add more/other words to give it another definition or better yet, create another word(s) to specify that definition.

I'm not denying that they know something about the Xel'Naga. I am denying the notion that they know "all about" the Xel'Naga.

I get you but I did explain what I really meant when I said "all about". You understandably misinterpreted me because of my poor choice of words. No need to justify the notion of them actually knowing all about Xel'Naga being silly because I already know that'd be silly.

What in the flying fudge? Why would they assume something like that?

Because the Protoss are like proxy humans, who are prone to bias and bigotry? :p

Keep in mind that my position is based off my opinion that DTs mistrust the Xel'naga and what they represent, based on their collective history.

Tura, you are King of Missing the Point.

The King? I'm honoured. If that's truly so, that'd have to make Rag the God!! :p

Also, how do you know I wasn't replying that way purposefully just to take the piss outta you? :cool:

I wasn't saying that they would have known about the Zerg if the Xel'Naga had left information behind to that effect, I'm saying that Zeratul's interaction with the Overmind is when they discovered something they had not previously known about the Xel'Naga. Which means that there is a whole wealth of information out there about the Xel'Naga worth discovering. Even though the Zerg happened later, understanding the Xel'Naga's genetic manipulation methods may help them discover things about how Zerg manipulate other races in the process of infestation. Also, by studying old ruins, they can learn more about Xel'Nagan motives and what possibly led them to creating the Zerg.

And you'd expect them to find these enlightening discoveries on a planet they had occupied for centuries only just now because they caught wind of the existence of Zerg on their secret homeworld? Convenient. I smell some confirmation bias in your reasoning here...

In other words, Zeratul's discovery makes all Xel'Nagan information automatically more valuable, and proves that the Protoss don't know "all about" the Xel'naga, and that the base assumptions they have been making about Xel'Nagan activities may in fact be wrong or skewed.

The off-chance that the Temple could contain some useful information still doesn't justify the extent they went into protecting Shakuras like they did, especially if it really wasn't a place of permanence or that they're anything like nomads. There could be innumerable Xel'Naga temples throughout the galaxy! They can go exploring those others if one is being compromised - they're nomadic, right? Why is Shakuras so important? It's simple. It's because Shakuras is their homeworld and the DT aren't really nomadic.

We don't know anything about the temple, therefore the temple is potentially anything.

This is a very good point indeed! It's because of this, that one can also assume the Temple is potentially useless as well, equally and just as much as you assume it as being potentially useful. Argument from ignorance can bite bothways...

This is why the Xel'Naga Temple completely sucks as a plot device. It's because it's very obvious that it exists for the sole purpose of plot device above all else. It's an excuse for the plot to happen the way it does and it's an excuse to have the DTs represented as a collective group by giving them a "homeworld". Bleh.

Pffft. I'mma pull out my 1949 thesaurus if you start doing that. :D

You gonna start throwing it at me if I do, are you? I knew you were a meanie. :p

Nissa

12-02-2017, 02:29 PM

Success!!

I understood you from the beginning. I understood that your opinion is wrong. :D

If a dictionary could talk, it'd most likely disagree with you. :D

Specific words have specific definitions. If the definition isn't specific, we add more/other words to give it another definition or better yet, create another word(s) to specify that definition.

"Humanoid." This word exists to represent any being that more or less resembles a human. What is the defining line between humanoid and not humanoid? We do not know. We may never know, given that we only ever get to use "humanoid" of beings in fiction, or perhaps robots.

"Art", "love", "poetry", "life", and "time" are all many words with vague, fuzzy definitions. Any attempt to specifically define these words is either someone's opinion, or someone referring to a specific aspect of their definition.

Dictionaries exist to serve, not to encapsulate everything. Kinda hard to do that when you only get a couple sentences per word.

Because the Protoss are like proxy humans, who are prone to bias and bigotry? :p

Keep in mind that my position is based off my opinion that DTs mistrust the Xel'naga and what they represent, based on their collective history.

I too feel that the DTs distrust the Xel'Naga. That doesn't mean they don't want to learn about them. After all, people who disagree with others will often study their opponents to fully articulate why. Also, as I have stated before, there has been plenty of time for the Conclave (or potentially certain tribes during the Aeon of Strife, the ones who found the Xel'Naga's documents first), to manipulate the original texts/artifacts/traditions/whatever to make their own positions seem correct. The DTs could have been trying to figure out who they Xel'Naga were.

Alternatively, if the Overmind felt that Aiur's temple was so important that he had to manifest himself there, then almost certainly something about the Shakuras temple is worth keeping out of the hands of the Zerg.

The King? I'm honoured. If that's truly so, that'd have to make Rag the God!! :p

Also, how do you know I wasn't replying that way purposefully just to take the piss outta you? :cool:

You can't have my piss! Shipping is expensive, and I'm pretty sure the postal service would have something to say about that.:p

And you'd expect them to find these enlightening discoveries on a planet they had occupied for centuries only just now because they caught wind of the existence of Zerg on their secret homeworld? Convenient. I smell some confirmation bias in your reasoning here...

Weird, I figured you'd be used to that smell by now, given that you've been around it so long. :D

And, anyway, I wasn't saying that they would find it when the Zerg appeared, I said that the Zerg's appearance would make them seek out more information, particularly once the found out that the Xel'Naga created the Zerg (assuming they believe it -- I figure at least some Protoss of all factions wouldn't necessarily take Zeratul at his word, for various reasons). There's probably a good deal of writing/inscriptions in the Temple, and it would take time to translate these.

The off-chance that the Temple could contain some useful information still doesn't justify the extent they went into protecting Shakuras like they did, especially if it really wasn't a place of permanence or that they're anything like nomads. There could be innumerable Xel'Naga temples throughout the galaxy! They can go exploring those others if one is being compromised - they're nomadic, right? Why is Shakuras so important? It's simple. It's because Shakuras is their homeworld and the DT aren't really nomadic.

As I mentioned earlier this post, if the Overmind wanted the one on Aiur, there's reason to believe the Zerg want the one on Shakuras. The implication is that these temples contain information that is not otherwise obtainable, or that their mere existence has meaning. Likewise, we have no reason to assume that there are innumberable temples throughout the universe. Given that the DTs ARE nomadic, they would have done lots of exploring, and enough to be more or less certain of the existence of other temples in space.

Stop makin' dem assumptions, yo.

This is a very good point indeed! It's because of this, that one can also assume the Temple is potentially useless as well, equally and just as much as you assume it as being potentially useful. Argument from ignorance can bite bothways...

From arrogance? Who you talkin' to?

This is why the Xel'Naga Temple completely sucks as a plot device. It's because it's very obvious that it exists for the sole purpose of plot device above all else. It's an excuse for the plot to happen the way it does and it's an excuse to have the DTs represented as a collective group by giving them a "homeworld". Bleh.

Yes, it's a plot device, but we weren't arguing about outworld concerns. The fact that the temple is anything implies the depth of its value, not its shallowness. At the very least, we know that it is a powerful weapon. One that can protect Shakuras, and potentially can be studied to create valuable, more mobile weaponry. However, since it was created by the Xel'Naga and the Zerg have been shown to value Xel'Naga artifacts, the temple has value. Just because the DTs are nomads doesn't mean that they're blind to the military, scientific, and historical value of a Xel'Naga temple. There's no replacing the temple. That's why they're protecting it.

You gonna start throwing it at me if I do, are you? I knew you were a meanie. :p

Ha, no, that thing is too precious to me. It is so useful to have as a writer, because it's full of weird, obsolete words that loser modern dictionaries have forgotten. It's my precious...

Turalyon

12-03-2017, 01:49 AM

What is the defining line between humanoid and not humanoid?

Context is important. If used as a noun, the word humanoid carries the inference of physical resemblance. "Human-like" is a much more broader/ill-defined term.

I too feel that the DTs distrust the Xel'Naga. That doesn't mean they don't want to learn about them.

I never came to that conclusion nor does my position hinge on that very thing.

Alternatively, if the Overmind felt that Aiur's temple was so important that he had to manifest himself there, then almost certainly something about the Shakuras temple is worth keeping out of the hands of the Zerg.

False analogy. The Overmind is not Dark Templar. And if, the Dark Templar feared the Overmind landing on Shakuras because of it's Xel'Naga Temple, they would've opted to kill it for reals when they had the chance. That they didn't when they had the distinct capability to do so in Return to Char (they had opportunity and DT at their disposal) makes this position even more egregious. That's not even factoring in the equally valid option of them picking out what they can from and of the Temple, destroy it to deny the enemy and pick-up stakes because you know, nothing's permanent for a nomadic peoples. Oh, that's right, they insist on staying there because it is their homeworld and they're not really nomads.

I said that the Zerg's appearance would make them seek out more information, particularly once the found out that the Xel'Naga created the Zerg (assuming they believe it -- I figure at least some Protoss of all factions wouldn't necessarily take Zeratul at his word, for various reasons).

Not really, the Protoss' only intent was just to kill all the Zerg... through the use of the Temple.

As I mentioned earlier this post, if the Overmind wanted the one on Aiur, there's reason to believe the Zerg want the one on Shakuras.

Unfounded reasoning. The Overmind is dead and there's nothing to say that the neo-Overmind is going to be exactly the same thing as it was before nor with the same memories. We don't know the real reason for why the Overmind wanted to land on the Xel'Naga temple site on Aiur in the first place, so it's just as equally feasible that it was only for this one-time (a possible reason that others have mentioned is that it may have something to do with the Psi-matrix which emanates from Aiur) as it is that they also want the one on Shakuras.

The implication is that these temples contain information that is not otherwise obtainable, or that their mere existence has meaning. Likewise, we have no reason to assume that there are innumberable temples throughout the universe. Given that the DTs ARE nomadic, they would have done lots of exploring, and enough to be more or less certain of the existence of other temples in space.

Stop makin' dem assumptions, yo.

And how are your statemenst above not assumptions? The Xel'naga are ancient and have seeded life on many planets. The fact there is more than one Temple and that other one not being Aiur, opens the possibility of there being more on other planets. We don't know. If the DTs are indeed nomads, there is the distinct possibility of them finding more if not already found and have colonies built around them. We don't know because we don't see it or are told about them. This is not the same as "they don't exist". It's like how people regard infestation/assimilation of Protoss not being possible only because we didn't see it happening throughout Sc1. That's ludicrous. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

From arrogance? Who you talkin' to?

No, "ignorance". An argument from ignorance is something that is considered true/false because it hasn't been yet proven to be false/true. It cuts both ways in that your argument revolves around this and I'm holding the mirror by showing that it can be dismantled by me using the same type of reasoning/argument.

Yes, it's a plot device, but we weren't arguing about outworld concerns. The fact that the temple is anything implies the depth of its value, not its shallowness. At the very least, we know that it is a powerful weapon. One that can protect Shakuras, and potentially can be studied to create valuable, more mobile weaponry. However, since it was created by the Xel'Naga and the Zerg have been shown to value Xel'Naga artifacts, the temple has value. Just because the DTs are nomads doesn't mean that they're blind to the military, scientific, and historical value of a Xel'Naga temple. There's no replacing the temple. That's why they're protecting it.

And you keep criticising me for making assumptions... We're also getting a little sidetracked as to why we're even talking about the temple in the first place.

They're not protecting Shakuras because it has a Xel'naga Temple, they are protecting it because it's their homeworld/ a place of permanent residence for a people that are ostensibly nomads. The Temple is just another reason for why Shakuras is not just a waystation and the DTs not being nomads.

Visions of Khas

12-03-2017, 07:06 AM

Turalyon

12-03-2017, 08:52 AM

All this kinda makes me wonder whether the new Overmind would have been bound to Amon's programmed directives like the old Overmind. If not, I'm sure a convenient retcon could be that the tainted portion of Kerrigan's psyche/subconscious sought out the new Overmind's destruction because of the threat it posed to Amon's plans.

All the Swarm Zerg are supposedly bound to Amon because he created the hivemind for them. If Kerrigan, the saviour of the Zerg, was still bound to Amon (which she refutes in Sc2) even after being left free in spirit despite being infested and the subsequent death of the Overmind, then all the cerebrates who were not as free and formed into the neo-Overmind would most likely still be bound to Amon as well. Course, we're supposed to think that the Overmind was employing doublethink the wholetime anyway by doing things that fulfill both it's enforced directive and its own secret plan, so how knows, maybe Kerrigan was both fulfilling her own plans but under Amon's sway in BW as well. It's all quite nonsensical really.

Visions of Khas

12-03-2017, 09:05 AM

We have conflicting messages regarding Kerrigan's manipulations by Amon; some sources claim she was always free of his will, while others claim she was on some level still swayed by him.

DonnyZeDoof

12-04-2017, 12:22 AM

So I went back and watched Metzen's 2009 Wings of Liberty story interview:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrZ7ETUvzb8

I swear he makes the story sound so good. It sounds like he knows what makes a good StarCraft story. He just executes it very poorly.

Did you guys expect Wings of Liberty to have a bad story before it was released?

Turalyon

12-04-2017, 03:24 AM

Did you guys expect Wings of Liberty to have a bad story before it was released?

*Raises hand* I am one of the few that didn't feel the story needed continuation nor did I even really want a sequel way back then.

DonnyZeDoof

12-04-2017, 04:22 AM

*Raises hand* I am one of the few that didn't feel the story needed continuation nor did I even really want a sequel way back then.

Why do you think the story didn't need continuation? Brood War ended on the biggest cliffhanger.

Or did you just think Blizzard wouldn't be able to write a good story for a sequel?

Turalyon

12-04-2017, 07:18 AM

^ Both.
It felt like the story came to a natural end. There were major deaths and the status quo changed massively and seemingly irreversibly - hallmarks of "finales" - by the end of BW. The initial premise of Sc1 was about the three races vying against each other and BW answered that by making the Zerg the uncontested winner over the other 2. The story was written into a corner more or less.
And sure, you could call the hybrids sequel bait and a cliffhanger if you want, but they weren't really what the crux of what Sc was about or what interested me about the universe in the first place. The hybrids are a way to continue the story to be sure, but they felt to me like an out-of-universe/Doylist excuse to continue and escalate the story.
The artificial gimping of the Zerg, the powering up of the Terrans, Amon coming etc. all because "4 years" is supposed to magically explain every change was but an excuse to not explain the changes. It felt like a sequel was only possible via asspull back then and Sc2 came out and proved me right in the end unfortunately. I was vindicated when I didn't want to be vindicated. :(

Nissa

12-04-2017, 12:16 PM

Context is important. If used as a noun, the word humanoid carries the inference of physical resemblance. "Human-like" is a much more broader/ill-defined term.

All I'm saying is that words with intentionally vague meanings exist. You must agree, if you feel "human-like" qualifies.

I never came to that conclusion nor does my position hinge on that very thing.

Some of your arguments made it seem that way. All I'm trying to say is that wanting to learn about the Xel'Naga provides a motive for wanting to protect the temple.

False analogy. The Overmind is not Dark Templar. And if, the Dark Templar feared the Overmind landing on Shakuras because of it's Xel'Naga Temple, they would've opted to kill it for reals when they had the chance. That they didn't when they had the distinct capability to do so in Return to Char (they had opportunity and DT at their disposal) makes this position even more egregious. That's not even factoring in the equally valid option of them picking out what they can from and of the Temple, destroy it to deny the enemy and pick-up stakes because you know, nothing's permanent for a nomadic peoples. Oh, that's right, they insist on staying there because it is their homeworld and they're not really nomads.

False analogy...? When did I say the overmind was like the Dark Templar...? This is why I'm not the biggest fan of debating you, because you take really weird leaps with what I say.

Um, the Dark Templar don't have to be like the Overmind to want to keep the Temple out of his clutches. Yes, they could take some stuff and destroy the temple, but the temple as a weapon and historical artifact makes this a less preferable option, particularly if the temple has hidden potential that they are continually discovering.

Not really, the Protoss' only intent was just to kill all the Zerg... through the use of the Temple.

In the short term, perhaps, but it's still a historical, technological artifact. The temple's destructive powers are not its only value, so far as we know. You stating that its destructive powers are its only value is an assumption on your part. It was never stated in the game that its only value is in destruction.

They're not protecting Shakuras because it has a Xel'naga Temple, they are protecting it because it's their homeworld/ a place of permanent residence for a people that are ostensibly nomads. The Temple is just another reason for why Shakuras is not just a waystation and the DTs not being nomads.

You're not proving anything. You're simply stating your assumption that they're only protecting Shakuras because it's their "homeworld." May I point out to you that no character ever said, "We ONLY protect this world because it's our homeworld. The ancient Xel'Naga temple with the fantastic powers and immense historical value means absolutely nothing to us. Nothing at all. Really." Look, dude, I brought up the temple in the first place because it's the most likely reason the Dark Templar ever settled on Shakuras in the first place. It is literally the only thing (besides maybe some mining potential or water deposits) that gave Shakuras as a planet any value. It's the reason why Shakuras is a "homeworld" rather than a temporary settlement.

The Protoss are people, capable of having a wide variety of motivations for any of their actions. Saying that they protect Shakuras only because of one specific reason is to reduce them to caricatures.

sandwich_bird

12-04-2017, 04:09 PM

^ Both.
It felt like the story came to a natural end. There were major deaths and the status quo changed massively and seemingly irreversibly - hallmarks of "finales" - by the end of BW. The initial premise of Sc1 was about the three races vying against each other and BW answered that by making the Zerg the uncontested winner over the other 2. The story was written into a corner more or less.
And sure, you could call the hybrids sequel bait and a cliffhanger if you want, but they weren't really what the crux of what Sc was about or what interested me about the universe in the first place. The hybrids are a way to continue the story to be sure, but they felt to me like an out-of-universe/Doylist excuse to continue and escalate the story.

What about Raynor, Mengsk, Artanis and Zeratul's vendetta against Kerrigan? I sure was waiting for Raynor to avenge Fenix. Yes, I'm still bitter about how that turned out... But that animosity alone was enough for a sequel without the hybrids on top of it all. Kerri's power can't be uncontested in a world where everyone has access to magical WMD that can turn the tides at any instant.

DonnyZeDoof

12-04-2017, 05:54 PM

We have conflicting messages regarding Kerrigan's manipulations by Amon; some sources claim she was always free of his will, while others claim she was on some level still swayed by him.

This reminds me: what exactly was the Overmind's plan?

The Overmind apparently created Kerrigan because she could break free of Amon's influence. But then Kerrigan goes around being a mass murderer and Raynor says it's because she was brainwashed as the Queen of Blades.

So which is it? Was Kerrigan brainwashed or not?

Turalyon

12-05-2017, 06:07 AM

All I'm saying is that words with intentionally vague meanings exist. You must agree, if you feel "human-like" qualifies.

Not really. "Nomad" is not a word with an "intentionally vague meaning". If the word was meant to denote something "intentionally vague", it'd be "nomad-like" or "nomad-oid" instead... but it ain't.

False analogy...? When did I say the overmind was like the Dark Templar...?

You were saying the Overmind was holding value for all/any Xel'naga temples as the reason it would invade Shakuras, which is much in the same way as DT holding value for all/any such temples as the reason for why they would protect Shakuras.

The temple's destructive powers are not its only value, so far as we know. You stating that its destructive powers are its only value is an assumption on your part. It was never stated in the game that its only value is in destruction.

No doubt the temple may indeed hold some subjective significance, but its destructive power was the only value that was worth noting by all concerned. The Temple was only brought up in conversation due to the Zerg being present on their homeworld - which is the bigger concern.

You're not proving anything. You're simply stating your assumption that they're only protecting Shakuras because it's their "homeworld." May I point out to you that no character ever said, "We ONLY protect this world because it's our homeworld. The ancient Xel'Naga temple with the fantastic powers and immense historical value means absolutely nothing to us. Nothing at all. Really." Look, dude, I brought up the temple in the first place because it's the most likely reason the Dark Templar ever settled on Shakuras in the first place. It is literally the only thing (besides maybe some mining potential or water deposits) that gave Shakuras as a planet any value. It's the reason why Shakuras is a "homeworld" rather than a temporary settlement.

So, with all that temple sidetrack you got me distracted over out of the way, it seems like you've come to terms with Shakuras being a place of permanent residence (homeworld), thereby understanding why DTs are not really nomads, right? ;)

The Protoss are people, capable of having a wide variety of motivations for any of their actions. Saying that they protect Shakuras only because of one specific reason is to reduce them to caricatures.

So? It's no different than you saying they're only protecting it because of the temple - being supposedly the only reason why the DT settled there/are even there to begin with.

What about Raynor, Mengsk, Artanis and Zeratul's vendetta against Kerrigan? I sure was waiting for Raynor to avenge Fenix. Yes, I'm still bitter about how that turned out... But that animosity alone was enough for a sequel without the hybrids on top of it all. Kerri's power can't be uncontested in a world where everyone has access to magical WMD that can turn the tides at any instant.

On a Watsonian level, I wouldn't think that Raynor would even be capable of pulling this vengeance scheme off. A realistic continuation/sequel would have had Raynor try but then be easily and unceremoniously murdered by the Zerg. Any other outcome would be "unrealistic" in terms of how the universe was last left at the end of BW. The story was well and truly written into a corner.

As to Kerry being uncontested, well, she did earn this in-universe whilst against these "magical WMDs" to reach where she ended up. Things could've turned against her and maybe they should have, but they didn't! The Zerg are so OP by the end of BW that it literally needed a plot device to get around if a sequel that had to involve the other races was even feasible in-universe. Course this came in the mundane form of 4 years passing and the Zerg doing absolutely nothing to the other races the whole time. And then, when she did march out, a convenient magical rock stopped her.

Thing is, even if it wasn't that, it'd be some other greater outside power being involved to escalate things further because "SEQUEL!". That's why we have Amon... That I knew that an obvious conceit had to be used in order to continue the story, just to continue the story, got my cynicism/sequelitis senses tingling way back then.

This reminds me: what exactly was the Overmind's plan?

The Overmind apparently created Kerrigan because she could break free of Amon's influence. But then Kerrigan goes around being a mass murderer and Raynor says it's because she was brainwashed as the Queen of Blades.

So which is it? Was Kerrigan brainwashed or not?

Keep in mind that any information taken from the "Tassamind" has to be taken with a grain of salt now, given that we now know it was really Ouros and that he's not above manipulating others with deceit. So... More probable that she was brainwashed...maybe? :p

sandwich_bird

12-05-2017, 12:02 PM

On a Watsonian level, I wouldn't think that Raynor would even be capable of pulling this vengeance scheme off. A realistic continuation/sequel would have had Raynor try but then be easily and unceremoniously murdered by the Zerg. Any other outcome would be "unrealistic" in terms of how the universe was last left at the end of BW. The story was well and truly written into a corner.

As to Kerry being uncontested, well, she did earn this in-universe whilst against these "magical WMDs" to reach where she ended up. Things could've turned against her and maybe they should have, but they didn't! The Zerg are so OP by the end of BW that it literally needed a plot device to get around if a sequel that had to involve the other races was even feasible in-universe. Course this came in the mundane form of 4 years passing and the Zerg doing absolutely nothing to the other races the whole time. And then, when she did march out, a convenient magical rock stopped her.

Thing is, even if it wasn't that, it'd be some other greater outside power being involved to escalate things further because "SEQUEL!". That's why we have Amon... That I knew that an obvious conceit had to be used in order to continue the story, just to continue the story, got my cynicism/sequelitis senses tingling way back then.

Kerri won against all odds but she didn't win against the magical WMD. As long as they exist, can she really hold power? Technically, the zerg shouldn't be well equipped to fight guerrilla warfare that involves apocalypse missiles, giant planet destroying spaceships and magic temple powers capable of specifically wiping out zergs. The reason why we don't see more of these in BroodWar are mostly Doylist. If the Terran and Protoss have access to such weaponry and they don't use it, I can only blame gameplay reasons. I'm sure the Dominion + UED + Protoss had enough firepower to blast Kerrigan's space platform back to hell a thousand time over. For Doylist reasons, they didn't. You can make up ad-hoc excuses for why they didn't in the sequel but the fact remains that the technology still exists and Kerrigan isn't a particularly well hidden target. I wouldn't have minded a SC2 where Raynor and his friends secretly amass enough firepower to lightning punch through the zerg defenses and go straight for the head. I kinda like that they somewhat did this in WoL. Obviously, it could have been done a lot better without the dumb desinfestation and etc.

Turalyon

12-05-2017, 04:16 PM

Kerri won against all odds but she didn't win against the magical WMD. As long as they exist, can she really hold power?

She did win in a universe where such magical WMD weapons exists though. We know they exist and that they can come out of the blue from nowhere (ie: psi disruptor) and yet she wins anyway. Also, I don't believe that technically the Zerg is not a match for the Protoss just because one can't imagine how they can stand up to Protoss military tech. The conceit of the setup is that the Zerg can and go toe-to-toe with them as demonstrated in Sc1. It's "realistic" within that universe in a Watsonian way.

There's also a point where a fictional universe introduces too much conceits in order to create a plot that it becomes more obvious that they are of Doylist influence than Watsonian. BW veers toward that territory and has the markings of finality to it. Continuation from that point can only be seen coming from Doylist influences, as was the case with Sc2.

sandwich_bird

12-05-2017, 07:56 PM

Also, I don't believe that technically the Zerg is not a match for the Protoss just because one can't imagine how they can stand up to Protoss military tech. The conceit of the setup is that the Zerg can and go toe-to-toe with them as demonstrated in Sc1. It's "realistic" within that universe in a Watsonian way.

The only reason why they could go toe to toe with the Protoss was because the Overmind was immortal. If he wasn't, the war would have been short lived. It all makes sense in vanilla.

Also of note, is that, even though the Overmind was immortal, the Zerg couldn't win either. The reason for that is probably because zergs are logically only really effective at sewing chaos in mostly static targets through blitzkrieg of endless numbers. In other words, it was cat(protoss) and mouse(zerg) before the discovery of Aiur.

That leads us back to BW. You have a mortal Kerrigan stuck on a platform ready to get fried. Sure, she can destroy every nation's seat of power but what is she gonna do in a guerrilla warfare? Numbers are meaningless and she's the only one who has the weakness of being a centralized power. The fight is pretty even when you think about it. She would have to avoid assassinations long enough to dry off the enemy for good. Post-BW wasn't even close to that point. There was no indication that anyone apart the UED expeditionary fleet was on the verge of death. Weak? Yes. Dying, probably not. It's still anyone's game.

Kerrigan herself sounded like she knew it wasn't close to over and many more fights were to come. " I will seek to test their resolve, and their strengths" and not "I will steamroll these scrubs". Also, "I think that I shall allow them to reprieve." could just be a coping excuse coming from a psychotic megalomaniac that can't say with a straight face that she isn't in the best of shapes herself. Furthermore, you don't retreat to Korhal/Shakuras to rebuild if you're facing extinction. You pack your bags and get the hell out.

There's also a point where a fictional universe introduces too much conceits in order to create a plot that it becomes more obvious that they are of Doylist influence than Watsonian.

But you're not introducing anything new. It's already all in there. The only thing that doesn't make sense is that it wasn't talked about in BW.

Hopefully that's somewhat convincing :p

Turalyon

12-06-2017, 09:03 AM

The only reason why they could go toe to toe with the Protoss was because the Overmind was immortal. If he wasn't, the war would have been short lived. It all makes sense in vanilla.

I think that their large numbers and tactical/strategic prowess would have also contributed...

Also of note, is that, even though the Overmind was immortal, the Zerg couldn't win either. The reason for that is probably because zergs are logically only really effective at sewing chaos in mostly static targets through blitzkrieg of endless numbers.

This is untrue though. The Zerg were able to maintain a protracted to-to-toe war with the Protoss on their very homeworld, if not even perhaps winning through attrition. The Protoss almost lost for real due to a civil war erupting and diverting their strength and they only eventually won because of a surprise attack using a superweapon that the Overmind wasn't expecting to be on Aiur (the DT - you know the job that its super anti Protoss weapon Kerrigan was supposed to do on Char).

In other words, it was cat(protoss) and mouse(zerg) before the discovery of Aiur.

The Zerg were really more the "cat" though. The Overmind was patient building up a plan, executing it and observing the Protoss before it struck, like a hunter. It allowed the Protoss to hamper its initial infestation of the Terrans just to gather information and didn't formerly engage until it was ready (when it found its determinant).

I think a closer analogy you're looking for is David (Zerg) vs Goliath (Protoss) - but subverted in that the latter won and winning not due to brute strength.

Numbers are meaningless and she's the only one who has the weakness of being a centralized power.

The Zerg fared well enough on Char Aleph. They definitely didn't have numbers on their side then (mist if the brood were still on the planet surface) and had to face the mustered forces of three great and different armies, yet won out in the end. The Zerg have always had the same weakness of centralised power but Kerrigan's "not a defenceless cerebrate to be assailed under the veil of darkness" and was designed to fight the very thing that could effectively exploit that weakness.

There was no indication that anyone apart the UED expeditionary fleet was on the verge of death. Weak? Yes. Dying, probably not. It's still anyone's game.

The issue is that the ending of BW exposes all the others as being weak! The Terrans and Protoss mustered the greatest force they could following the individual devastations they each suffered only to be defeated by a small Zerg force commanded by a cerebrate. On Watsonian level, the Terrans and Protoss are such on a backfoot in having to rebuild with the Zerg suffering no equivalent setback (both in having suffered no massive defeats or having problems in regards to rebuilding/regaining losses) that any realistic continuation from this setup is bound to be one directional toward the Zergs favour. Only a Doylist reason is possible to get around this and that's a problem because one is forced and can only see a Doylist reason as the only thing to even justify a sequel.

Kerrigan herself sounded like she knew it wasn't close to over and many more fights were to come. " I will seek to test their resolve, and their strengths" and not "I will steamroll these scrubs". Also, "I think that I shall allow them to reprieve." could just be a coping excuse coming from a psychotic megalomaniac that can't say with a straight face that she isn't in the best of shapes herself.

Keep in mind she also ends that monologue by saying (paraphrasing here) that they shall all be hers in the end and no-one will contest her rule ever again. She means serious business there. She's only giving them a "reprieve" because it's just a game to her at that point. She kniws she can squash them at any time but being the "Queen Bitch if the Universe" she can gave a bit of twisted fun by giving them a (false) "sporting chance".

Furthermore, you don't retreat to Korhal/Shakuras to rebuild if you're facing extinction. You pack your bags and get the hell out.

Just like the UED did? Worked out well for them, didn't it? ;)

But you're not introducing anything new. It's already all in there. The only thing that doesn't make sense is that it wasn't talked about in BW.

Thing is, something new has to be introduced to break this new status quo of Zerg supremacy. The Watsonian continuation of BW would just have it realistically play out with the Zerg killing everything eventually in the end. That's partly the explanation of why Sc2 even has Amon, 4 year gaps where some things conveniently change and some don't, artifacts and hybrid shenanigans.

sandwich_bird

12-06-2017, 11:08 AM

I think that their large numbers and tactical/strategic prowess would have also contributed...

Hardly. The meta is very different when WMD are involved. They can overrun a planet but what does it matter when you can just destroy it.

This is untrue though. The Zerg were able to maintain a protracted to-to-toe war with the Protoss on their very homeworld, if not even perhaps winning through attrition.

Well that's exactly what I'm saying. Aiur is a static target. It was the strategical center of power and you can't use WMD without killing your own people. The war was a stalemate before because 1. the overmind was immortal and 2. because the zerg didn't know where Aiur was. You remove either of these constraint and the scale tips. If you remove both, logically it favors the protoss because they have the mean to destroy the zerg by cutting the head and because they don't have to centralize their power. Of course, this is probably a timed advantage before they dry out.

The Zerg fared well enough on Char Aleph. They definitely didn't have numbers on their side then (mist if the brood were still on the planet surface) and had to face the mustered forces of three great and different armies, yet won out in the end. The Zerg have always had the same weakness of centralised power but Kerrigan's "not a defenceless cerebrate to be assailed under the veil of darkness" and was designed to fight the very thing that could effectively exploit that weakness.

As I said, this was 100% doylist. It makes 0 sense in that universe. The first minute of starcraft shows a Protoss vessel destroy an entire planet and instead of using any of that weaponry they engage in close quarter combat? You know, the only kind of combat where the zerg have the advantage? Please...

Just like the UED did? Worked out well for them, didn't it?

To be fair, that was also very doylist. How can they logically catch up to a fleet that goes in warp space before them? You're gonna tell me that the zerg can go faster than spaceships in warpspace and that they can also know the exact path the ships are taking? That's complete bs. Best that happens is that they follow the fleet back to earth and get smoked on exit.

BW isn't as concise as Vanilla and it suffers major plot holes such as these. You talk about the Watsonian follow up to BW but the universe is already fairly tainted by the end of BW. Never to the extent of SC2 but what I'm saying is that there's a precedent in the universe to distorting logical outcomes. We can argue for days about what should be the true watsonian situation of the sector post-BW but when you sparkle the story so much for doylist reasons; it doesn't matter. Anything goes. What does matter though is closing plot threads. Raynor's vendetta, UED missing their recon fleet, Duran's plan, etc. You can't have a satisfying ending without finishing what you started.

Gradius

12-06-2017, 12:06 PM

I thought the UED fleet got attacked in normal space. Maybe they were going to a rendezvous before going back to Earth.

ragnarok

12-06-2017, 08:03 PM

I thought the UED fleet got attacked in normal space. Maybe they were going to a rendezvous before going back to Earth.

Same here. Did they ever specify WHERE the fleet was upon being attacked?

Turalyon

12-07-2017, 02:25 AM

Hardly. The meta is very different when WMD are involved. They can overrun a planet but what does it matter when you can just destroy it.

But the Protoss and Terrans have access to and use WMDs of various sorts in military engagements already. That didn't stop the Zerg. Besides, the Overmind didn't fear the WMD/technologic prowess of of its enemies, only the psionic power of the Protoss. Even with that, that wasn't really enough to stop the Zerg anyway. Besides, the Zerg are probably aware of such weapons and would have devised tactics to get around them. Using a WMD isn't very subtle and carries with it limitations of their own (such as the risk of mutually assured destruction).

Well that's exactly what I'm saying. Aiur is a static target. It was the strategical center of power and you can't use WMD without killing your own people. The war was a stalemate before because 1. the overmind was immortal and 2. because the zerg didn't know where Aiur was. You remove either of these constraint and the scale tips. If you remove both, logically it favors the protoss because they have the mean to destroy the zerg by cutting the head and because they don't have to centralize their power. Of course, this is probably a timed advantage before they dry out.

You've highlighted that the context is important but then why would you expect the Zerg to engage the Protoss full-on and against their entire might at their disposal/when the Protoss have the distinct tactical advantage? The Overmind is not stupid, it knows it's martial forces will never compete well in such a match-up and would never put itself in a position in which a situation would come to that. I get that you're saying the sides are asymmetrical but that does not mean the Protoss would always win no matter what nor that the Zerg cannot/won't equalise things through other means.

As I said, this was 100% doylist. It makes 0 sense in that universe. The first minute of starcraft shows a Protoss vessel destroy an entire planet and instead of using any of that weaponry they engage in close quarter combat? You know, the only kind of combat where the zerg have the advantage? Please...

Eh, we can take this into the absurd by wondering why the Protoss even bother to engage in close-quarter combat at all when fighting enemies on worlds that are not their homeworld, really. Thing is, conceited as the final battle was, it was what it was and it was partly this and the consequence rising from it that it truly sank home for me that this was and should be the end. Any sequel that would follow could only be a Doylist exercise.

To be fair, that was also very doylist. How can they logically catch up to a fleet that goes in warp space before them? You're gonna tell me that the zerg can go faster than spaceships in warpspace and that they can also know the exact path the ships are taking? That's complete bs. Best that happens is that they follow the fleet back to earth and get smoked on exit.

She probably only gave them a small window to run but then smoked them before they could get into warp space. It's that or she lied (as she's wont to do) and promptly sluaghtered them without giving them a chance to run regardless of what she said, cos she's a self-admitted bitch.

BW isn't as concise as Vanilla and it suffers major plot holes such as these. You talk about the Watsonian follow up to BW but the universe is already fairly tainted by the end of BW. Never to the extent of SC2 but what I'm saying is that there's a precedent in the universe to distorting logical outcomes.

This is the reason where I began to not really want a sequel back then. It had gone too far in a certain direction such that to keep the integrity/honesty of it, it really just had to end there. If the story was going to keep looking into the consequence/significance of certain events, such a continuation from BW as this only had one direction to go and that wasn't really worth doing since you knew what was going to happen. The alternative was to continue with these introduced "distortions" and add more such that eventually, nothing would have any meaningful significance or consequence anymore (and threaten that whether it ever did at all in the very first place). Sc2 is a testament to the latter.

What does matter though is closing plot threads. Raynor's vendetta, UED missing their recon fleet, Duran's plan, etc. You can't have a satisfying ending without finishing what you started.

I get that but I guess I'm a little unconventional when it comes to "endings". Having to close plot threads, have proper closure and heck even the concept of a "finale" is a Doylist intent that sometimes doesn't mesh well when you regard the universe in a Watsonian way. I was satisfied in not knowing the fate (whether it be ultimately good or bad) or what happens next to some of those things you mentioned because I regarded them as contextually "minor" in importance/relation to the current story being told. I preferred to fanon rather than knowing for sure what happens next.

sandwich_bird

12-07-2017, 01:29 PM

I thought the UED fleet got attacked in normal space. Maybe they were going to a rendezvous before going back to Earth.

She probably only gave them a small window to run but then smoked them before they could get into warp space. It's that or she lied (as she's wont to do) and promptly sluaghtered them without giving them a chance to run regardless of what she said, cos she's a self-admitted bitch.

Fair points. I was just assuming that they'd go in warpspace asap but it's true that maybe they had to rendezvous and maybe Kerrigan lied and came earlier than expected. It's also never really shown/explained before SC2 how Terran FTL works iirc(I might be wrong here but I don't remember if we ever see a Terran ship use warpspace). Maybe they need to "charge up" for weeks or refuel; who knows. In SC2, it looks pretty instantaneous which is where I was getting this idea from that they wouldn't just wait around and there would be no opportunity to catch them off guard on the run. But, again that is SC2 logic and I doubt it was decided back in BW.

Same here. Did they ever specify WHERE the fleet was upon being attacked?

Afaik, the most we know is that it happened after Dugalle shot himself so probably around whatever area they were in that cinematic.

But the Protoss and Terrans have access to and use WMDs of various sorts in military engagements already. That didn't stop the Zerg.

In BW, this is mostly for Doylist reasons. In Vanilla, it seemed pretty effective to me in a scorched earth policy kind of way. Unless you meant stopping completely? That is explained because the Overmind was immortal.

Besides, the Zerg are probably aware of such weapons and would have devised tactics to get around them.

Why didn't they try to destroy Tassadar's fleet then? It makes perfect sense that they just couldn't. It's not a static target that you can overrun. It appears in and out of nowhere, blows up everything and then disappears.

Like you said, the overmind isn't dumb. His plan wasn't to fight a fight he couldn't win. He knew he couldn't hold any kind of power over the Protoss unless he hit them where it hurts: Aiur.

Eh, we can take this into the absurd by wondering why the Protoss even bother to engage in close-quarter combat at all when fighting enemies on worlds that are not their homeworld, really.

Correct me if I'm wrong but there's absolutely no occurrence of Protoss willingly engaging in close-quarter combat in Vanilla if they didn't have to. First, they get stopped by Mengsk on their way to Tarsonis, then you see Tass and the DT on Char and then boom you're on Aiur. I would say the same about the Terran. Basically, there never was a good strategic situation to use the WMD(minus Tassadar).

In BW, well.. that's where it gets messy anyways. I get your point about ending it there though. To be honest, if I wouldn't first have experienced BW at a young age, I don't know how I'd feel about the prospect of a sequel. Maybe I'd think like you. Either way, I still believe the story was salvageable after BW. You'd have some explaining to do but it wasn't that far down until sc2 dragged it down to hell. But I guess we just disagree on this.

Visions of Khas

12-07-2017, 05:58 PM

Gradius

12-07-2017, 06:11 PM

On Tarsonis the Protoss were in a free for all between the Sons of Korhal, the Confederates, and the Zerg. After that, the main protoss fleet retreated and Tassadar was basically left with stragglers; it was all downhill from that point.

Turalyon

12-08-2017, 04:34 AM

In BW, this is mostly for Doylist reasons. In Vanilla, it seemed pretty effective to me in a scorched earth policy kind of way.

I dunno whether you can only just reduce BW's implied lack of WMD usage as "Doylist reasons" without it also being the explanation for their lack of use in specific instances of Sc1 as well. The Terrans have always had access to nukes with various yields, all of which are effective against Zerg, and are more than happy to use them (Ghosts can call in tactical nukes) and yet they still get crushed. Tassadar was on Char for the vast majority of Sc1 and must have had at least the Gantrithor or some other ship with a planet cracker/WMD with him, yet they persist in a largely ground based melee the whole time.

Why didn't they try to destroy Tassadar's fleet then?

Tassadar being stranded on Char and needing rescue tends to suggest that his fleet may well have been wrecked. Being the Executor of the Protoss' military and that he was burning worlds with WMDs up until Tarsonis means that he'd have access to WMDs at the time to fend off the Zerg after the Tarsonis debacle, yet he's still hard-pressed by the Zerg on Char when Aldaris come to find him. This suggests the finest of the Protoss military, even with all their WMDs, are not enough to stop the Zerg overpowering them.

Correct me if I'm wrong but there's absolutely no occurrence of Protoss willingly engaging in close-quarter combat in Vanilla if they didn't have to. First, they get stopped by Mengsk on their way to Tarsonis, then you see Tass and the DT on Char and then boom you're on Aiur. I would say the same about the Terran. Basically, there never was a good strategic situation to use the WMD(minus Tassadar).

The engagement on Char is a significant close-quarter encounter. Tassadar either had his fleet/WMDs then or he didn't. If it was the former, he should have no compunction to use such WMDs in this context since the world isn't populated with Terrans like Tarsonis was and he knows it's a staging ground for the Zerg. That we aren't notified of whether or not such Protoss WMDs are used in this instance implies either a) a Doylist excuse like the author forgot about them or decided not to have the Protoss use WMDs, b) a Watsonian excuse like the Protoss did use them but it ended up not being enough or c) equally Doylist and Watsonian excuse like they were disabled, faulty or unable to be used effectively or efficiently enough against the Zerg due to battle damage from the debacle at Tarsonis. The Watsonian excuses of b) and c) would suggest the Protoss and Zerg can fight on equal times. If it's the latter option of Tassdar not having his fleet/WMDs at his disposal on Char (whereas he would have at Tarsonis prior to this engagement), than that just goes to show that even with their mighty fleet and WMDs at their disposal, the Zerg can meet the Protoss toe-to-toe even when facing such weapons and win.

To be honest, if I wouldn't first have experienced BW at a young age, I don't know how I'd feel about the prospect of a sequel. Maybe I'd think like you.

Young age? I was around 15/16 when I first experienced SC1 and BW. It certainly got me thinking back then of all the dangling bits that could've been explored in a possible sequel but the more I thought about it, the more I realised it was more fun speculating about it than having it actually materialise. That and my cynicism for sequels grew ever more sharper over time.

Zoar

12-08-2017, 06:54 AM

Or perhaps its because they Protoss don't feel its "honorable combat"

sandwich_bird

12-08-2017, 11:16 AM

Regarding the Protoss strategy; Tassadar fully engaged the zerg at Tarsonis, deploying ground forces to the surface to prevent the extermination of human lives. And this turned into a complete debacle. The zerg slaughtered his ground troops, and scattered his fleet. The remainder of the survivors were hunted down and killed on Char by either Kerrigan or Daggoth. In all these engagements, the protoss lost by a seemingly wide margin.

On Tarsonis the Protoss were in a free for all between the Sons of Korhal, the Confederates, and the Zerg. After that, the main protoss fleet retreated and Tassadar was basically left with stragglers; it was all downhill from that point.

Tassadar being stranded on Char and needing rescue tends to suggest that his fleet may well have been wrecked. Being the Executor of the Protoss' military and that he was burning worlds with WMDs up until Tarsonis means that he'd have access to WMDs at the time to fend off the Zerg after the Tarsonis debacle, yet he's still hard-pressed by the Zerg on Char when Aldaris come to find him. This suggests the finest of the Protoss military, even with all their WMDs, are not enough to stop the Zerg overpowering them.

Just so that we're all on the same line here, correct me if I'm wrong but here's how this went down:
-Zergs start overrunning Tarsonis because of the psi emitter
-Tassadar and his small recon fleet comes to Tarsonis to stop the zerg. He disobey conclave orders and refuses to use WMD to save human lives. Instead he opt to fight in "conventional close quarter combat".
-Kerrigan stops him on his way and he gets stuck in a ffa between SoK/Confed/Zerg
-Things aren't working out on Tarsonis and the conclave orders him to come back to Aiur to stand trial for his disobedience which led to the failure of the operation.
-Tassadar sends most of his fleet back to Aiur but keep his personal ship and follow a "signal" that leads him to Char.
-There, he meets the DT and Raynor. He learns how cerebrates work and then leave to tell Aiur.

Now, I don't know how that would disprove what I'm claiming. Basically, what I'm saying is:

-The Protoss can use WMD and if it wasn't for the fact that the overmind was immortal, the Protoss would simply annihilate the zerg with ease by blowing up the overmind.
-If you don't kill the zerg leaders, you can't win against them. If you engage in close quarter combat, you will probably lose against them. Static target are doomed against zergs.
-Zerg only strategy against "terrorist" attacks is to dry out the enemy. You can't dry out the enemy if you can't hit their center of power.
-A terrorist attack with WMD is highly/demonstrably plausible and is enough to kill a "target" if it isn't immortal. It's unclear if Kerrigan is immortal.

More specifically in regards to the episodes:

-After Mar Sara and according to the characters motivations, there was no situation in which it made sense to use WMD and this is why they aren't used in SC1
-In BW, in contrast to Vanilla, there is at least one(but probably more) opportunity to use WMD and that is at the final mission. Furthermore, this would align with the characters' motivations. Yet, they don't use that weaponry because of Doylist reasons aka the writers wanted Kerrigan to win and made each respective character make the stupid decision of engaging in close quarter combat.

I dunno whether you can only just reduce BW's implied lack of WMD usage as "Doylist reasons" without it also being the explanation for their lack of use in specific instances of Sc1 as well.

That's the thing, there is always an explanation in SC1. On Tarsonis, Tassadar didn't want to kill humans so he can't use WMD. On Char:

1. It's unclear how strong Tassadar forces are but it's understood that they're small. It's unclear if he has the means to make a hit and run. It's unclear if he has access to a WMD (his ship might be able to do it at that point in time, not sure).
2. He's not there to destroy everything. He's there to investigate. Once he learned enough, it makes more sense for him to ask for the "infinite" might of Aiur than try to end it alone with his ragtag team.

Similarly to number 2, Duke and Raynor are not mainly there to destroy everything. They are there to investigate and seek Kerrigan. Duke had the order to destroy everything, but he was firstly there to get Kerrigan because she called up to Mengsk in his dream. If he'd use WMD, he'd risk killing Kerrigan. Of course, he got attacked and then retreated. It's plausible that he underestimated what he would face there and it's plausible that the next step would have been to use WMD but we never had the time to see it. Of course, that wouldn't have done much of anything because the overmind is immortal and it also left to go to Aiur.

Young age? I was around 15/16 when I first experienced SC1 and BW. It certainly got me thinking back then of all the dangling bits that could've been explored in a possible sequel but the more I thought about it, the more I realised it was more fun speculating about it than having it actually materialise. That and my cynicism for sequels grew ever more sharper over time.

I was 10-11, rented it over the weekends on the N64 :D Good times. I only fully finished it (with cheat codes cause I sucked) on pc during the summer before I started high school though.

Or perhaps its because they Protoss don't feel its "honorable combat"

It's honorable enough to burn down Mar Sara though!

Gradius

12-08-2017, 11:23 AM

sandwich_bird

12-08-2017, 11:58 AM

I pretty much agree with that Sandwich. But in BW Aldaris mentions that they've lost their "great fleets" and they're in a weakened state, so that's why they don't use WMDs.

I mean in BW everyone is in a weakened state, let alone after. The huge powerup that everyone got in SC2 was just insane.

It's a bit hard to believe that they don't have at least a few WMDs left(you really only need 1 super protoss ship or 1 apocalypse missile + a tactical force) or that any of them aren't trying/succeeding to get some more but it's admittedly not impossible considering everything else.

But, returning to what started this whole convo. I still maintain that, post-BW, it would have made sense in this universe for Raynor and friends to at least manage to gather some WMD and launch a possibly successful surgical strike on Kerrigan. In other words, not all was lost even if it wasn't looking good. It would have made a nice SC2 story imo. At least millions of time better than what we got.

Gradius

12-08-2017, 01:25 PM

sandwich_bird

12-08-2017, 03:30 PM

I always thought that was what Omega was about. They’re trying to stage up a staging area for nuking the shit out of Char, otherwise the nukes or Protoss ships are just going to get shot down by scourges or other fliers.

Afaik, they came for Kerrigan and she was on the platform, not directly on Char. You're defending her and her main base of operation in Omega. It is similar, just no use of super nukes and etc. Either they were just really sure of themselves or they badly planned due to a reactionary attitude or they didn't have any wmd like you said.

Side note: kinda funny that in SC2, if you chose that leviathan mission, Raynor and part of the Dominion are able to do on hard mode what the Dominion + UED + Artanis were not able to do.

Visions of Khas

12-08-2017, 03:36 PM

Or perhaps its because they Protoss don't feel its "honorable combat"

For the majority of the StarCraft campaigns, the protoss' strategies were fairly practical: Tassadar's fleet had been nuking worlds from orbit. He only deigned to engage the zerg on Tarsonis because it was a massive population center of terrans.

For a long time I was curious as to what happened to the Great Fleet in StarCraft. I just assumed that it was sent abroad, and came back piece-meal to Aiur, only to be torn to shreds. I didn't know it was cleared up by the Dark Templar Saga, where the greater part of it was sent back to Aiur. I suppose the remainder was destroyed by the Overmind's invasion force, or attrited during The Executor's campaign.

If true, then Tassadar likely reserved the Gantrithor's planet cracker weapons in favor of covert actions. Indeed, he was somehow able to slip past Char's defenses, and was only detected by Kerrigan's senses. So did he meet Zeratul en route to Char?

ragnarok

12-08-2017, 10:26 PM

It's a bit hard to believe that they don't have at least a few WMDs left(you really only need 1 super protoss ship or 1 apocalypse missile + a tactical force) or that any of them aren't trying/succeeding to get some more but it's admittedly not impossible considering everything else.

But, returning to what started this whole convo. I still maintain that, post-BW, it would have made sense in this universe for Raynor and friends to at least manage to gather some WMD and launch a possibly successful surgical strike on Kerrigan. In other words, not all was lost even if it wasn't looking good. It would have made a nice SC2 story imo. At least millions of time better than what we got.

In some ways it would have been the right setup after Omega due to Kerrigan foolishly thinking she was now untouchable after the defeat the Dominion, Protoss, and UED forces. WoL got that part right (if nothing else) for serving her right for her defeat years later on Char.

Turalyon

12-09-2017, 01:34 AM

-Tassadar and his small recon fleet comes to Tarsonis to stop the zerg.

-Tassadar sends most of his fleet back to Aiur but keep his personal ship and follow a "signal" that leads him to Char.

What is the significance of the underline? No matter how small his fleet, we know he has access to WMDs at all times at least through his flagship the Gantrithor, while he was at Char. He would and should have used them in his time on Char. If he didn't use them, that's a big Doylist excuse that exists with no explanation. If he did use them, that Tassadar is on the backfoot when Aldaris comes to him goes to show the Zerg can go toe-to-toe with the Protoss even if they do use WMDs against them. Besides, a small Protoss military detachment is worthy many time their number in combat against Zerg, not to mention that being the Executor/Supreme military commander of the Protoss, Tassadar could call in an army at any time in a moments notice.

-The Protoss can use WMD and if it wasn't for the fact that the overmind was immortal, the Protoss would simply annihilate the zerg with ease by blowing up the overmind.

This doesn't seem to make sense. We're talking about the effectiveness of WMDs in military engagements as supposed proof that Zerg are not the Protoss equal in direct military engagements not their effectiveness as Zerg leader assassination tools. There was nothing holding Tass back from using such weapons on Char since he could still destroy a large number of their army/forces and hatcheries unimpugned. Without an army and the means to produce them quickly, the Zerg are much more manageable/controllable even though not technically destroyed/completely defeated. In terms of a military engagement, this would still be considered a victorious outcome for the Protoss/defeat for Zerg.

Like I've been saying and will say again: If Tassadar didn't even bother to do this, he must either suck at military strategy or more accurately, it's a Doylist excuse. If Tassadar did attempt this, it obviously wasn't effective enough since he's still on the backfoot and is therefore proof that Zerg can go toe-to-toe with the Protoss even if they have WMDs at their disposal.

-If you don't kill the zerg leaders, you can't win against them. If you engage in close quarter combat, you will probably lose against them. Static target are doomed against zergs.

So... you must concede then that the Zerg can engage the Protoss toe-to-toe equally in military engagements, right? Because, I don't know how else you can say otherwise.

-Zerg only strategy against "terrorist" attacks is to dry out the enemy. You can't dry out the enemy if you can't hit their center of power.
-A terrorist attack with WMD is highly/demonstrably plausible and is enough to kill a "target" if it isn't immortal. It's unclear if Kerrigan is immortal.

What do you mean by "terrorist" attack? Do you mean like suicide/kamikaze tactics or do you mean via stealth/surprise tactics? The have numbers to mitigate the former and Overlords to minimise the risk of the latter. Unless the WMD is also very discrete and small, it'd be hard to deliver it to the most protected being in a Zerg brood, provided you can locate the thing in the first place.

-After Mar Sara and according to the characters motivations, there was no situation in which it made sense to use WMD and this is why they aren't used in SC1

I think you need to classify by what you mean as WMD. Tactical nukes would still be considered WMDs and are used liberally by the Terrans in normal military engagements where necessary. It's funny how the Confeds don't make use of them more to defend themselves given how trigger happy they were to nuke Korhal back then and that they actually know more about the Zerg and the potential threat they face (they must if they know enough about them that they can devise such effective technologies against in them in the supposed short time the Zerg were made known) than any other Terran factions.

-In BW, in contrast to Vanilla, there is at least one(but probably more) opportunity to use WMD and that is at the final mission. Furthermore, this would align with the characters' motivations. Yet, they don't use that weaponry because of Doylist reasons aka the writers wanted Kerrigan to win and made each respective character make the stupid decision of engaging in close quarter combat.

Oh, you're just not looking hard enough for a reason! :p

Incidentally, I found a Watsonian reason for why the Protoss didn't use WMDs in Omega/on Char Aleph: Humans were there. Even though both the UED and Mengsk would be considered enemies to the Protoss, Artanis would probably be of the (I'll leave it up to you whether you feel I'm being sarcastic here or not :D) bleeding-heart variety that his idol Tassadar turned out-to-be and refrain from using them since they're all facing a common enemy and shouldn't be collateral damage (Aldaris would've rolled in his grave at the time :p). Mengsk doesn't have apocalypse-class nukes because his got destroyed when the UED took over (if you did that mission of destroying the nuke silos) and/or that he could only source/scrape up enough for an army and not super-duper nukes. The UED may just plain don't have any because they've only got remnants of an army after being shellacked by Kerrigan over the past few missions and also, if they did have world-destroying WMDs, they wouldn't have planned to use the Zerg to be their WMD to pacify the sector in the first place.

That's the thing, there is always an explanation in SC1.

It's unclear if he has access to a WMD (his ship might be able to do it at that point in time, not sure).

That smells like a Doylist excuse! If Tassadar did have access to WMDs on his retreat from Tarsonis, he may have used them during that time between there and when he arrived on Char since there'd be no risk of harming others/humans then and he's ostensibly protecting himself/engaging in warfare with an implacable enemy. If he did, it obviously wasn't enough. Once again, this is proof that Zerg can go toe-to-toe with the WMD-wielding Protoss.

He's not there to destroy everything. He's there to investigate. Once he learned enough, it makes more sense for him to ask for the "infinite" might of Aiur than try to end it alone with his ragtag team.

I'm sorry but you can't put this up as an excuse because it's completely untrue. Tassadar was assigned to burn the Terran worlds and a fleet that was capable of doing so. He was actively doing this up until Tarsonis when his conscience caught up and he decided on a different tact. Unless Tassadar lost that capability at Tarsonis (I wouldn't know how this would be possible without it being Doylist in reasoning) or sometime between that and arriving on Char, he would have the ability and reason to use WMDs at Char...

Similarly to number 2, Duke and Raynor are not mainly there to destroy everything. They are there to investigate and seek Kerrigan. Duke had the order to destroy everything, but he was firstly there to get Kerrigan because she called up to Mengsk in his dream. If he'd use WMD, he'd risk killing Kerrigan.

Given that the EU novels retcon that Mengsk wanted to kill Kerrigan all along, this doesn't excuse why they didn't just resort to Apocalypse-class nukes on Char. Also, it doesn't stop them using the normal tactical nuke that is used liberally in all other instances to get rid of the Zerg presence. They don't know about the Zerg leaders being immortal so that wouldn't have factored into their decision about using them. They would only know that nukes are good at killing a lot of Zerg and that that would be good enough.

For a long time I was curious as to what happened to the Great Fleet in StarCraft. I just assumed that it was sent abroad, and came back piece-meal to Aiur, only to be torn to shreds. I didn't know it was cleared up by the Dark Templar Saga, where the greater part of it was sent back to Aiur. I suppose the remainder was destroyed by the Overmind's invasion force, or attrited during The Executor's campaign.

If it is indeed true that the vast majority of the fleet and their WMDs went back to Aiur and still lost against the Zerg fleet, this is just more proof that the Zerg can go toe-to-toe with the Protoss in straight up military engagements...

Sorry, Bird. It's not looking good for your position that the Protoss would've realistically (in a Watsonian way) wiped the Zerg in any straight-up fight.

But, returning to what started this whole convo. I still maintain that, post-BW, it would have made sense in this universe for Raynor and friends to at least manage to gather some WMD and launch a possibly successful surgical strike on Kerrigan. In other words, not all was lost even if it wasn't looking good. It would have made a nice SC2 story imo. At least millions of time better than what we got.

While I'm not opposed to ideas in general, this one tends to smack a little bit of fan service/appeasement if it did happen. Whilst the Sc2 critics were right about Sc2 not directly continuing or appropriately addresssing what was from BW when in came to Raynor's character progression, the Sc2 defenders were right in that it wouldn't realistically be possible for Raynor to be able to do this. I mean, I'm pretty sure the Sc2 critics are still up-in-arms about how in WoL, Raynor is so gifted by the almighty plot armour and the grace of gods that he's able to lead a mere half of the Dominion fleet to total victory against the Zerg on Char - having him similarly manage to find some nukes and then one-up Kerrigan in an engagement seems just as fanciful.

sandwich_bird

12-09-2017, 12:46 PM

What is the significance of the underline?

Meh, was just a nod to say that if a small Protoss force can annihilate a planet in seconds. An entire army would be scary.

in direct military engagements not their effectiveness as Zerg leader assassination tools.

Huhhh Tura, that was my whole argument :p If you don't kill the zerg leaders, you will eventually get screwed no matter how many days you run the WMD weed-eater. Direct military engagements are probably doomed. I've said it a bunch of times. First sentence regarding this that I said:

The first minute of starcraft shows a Protoss vessel destroy an entire planet and instead of using any of that weaponry they engage in close quarter combat? You know, the only kind of combat where the zerg have the advantage? Please...

I didn't say they could go toe to toe in direct combat. I said if the leader wasn't immortal, they wouldn't be able to go toe to toe(assuming they still don't know about Aiur):

The only reason why they could go toe to toe with the Protoss was because the Overmind was immortal. If he wasn't, the war would have been short lived. It all makes sense in vanilla.

But I guess we could also start talking about the possibility of Protoss blowing every planets where the zerg exist and then perpetually having ships blow up the overmind and the cerebrates if you want :D

Regardless, in direct military engagement, it favors the Zerg and I'm not arguing against that position.

Like I've been saying and will say again: If Tassadar didn't even bother to do this, he must either suck at military strategy or more accurately, it's a Doylist excuse. If Tassadar did attempt this, it obviously wasn't effective enough since he's still on the backfoot and is therefore proof that Zerg can go toe-to-toe with the Protoss even if they have WMDs at their disposal.

Lets assume that in this moment in time, his ship is able to use WMD and he's done investigating and he doesn't care about whatever DT and Terran might still be on Char. The problem remains that the Zerg are after him and he doesn't have much backup. The likelihood of successfully deploying his big lasers and living to tell the tale in this situation is debatable wouldn't you agree? Maybe he can shoot, but if the Zergs are after him, how long can he shoot? You don't think it makes more sense to go back to Aiur and ask for backup?

I think you need to classify by what you mean as WMD. Tactical nukes would still be considered WMDs and are used liberally by the Terrans in normal military engagements where necessary.

I'm talking about the planet destroying kind, not the smaller versions.

Oh, you're just not looking hard enough for a reason!

ha but I did say this to Grad!

It's a bit hard to believe that they don't have at least a few WMDs left(you really only need 1 super protoss ship or 1 apocalypse missile + a tactical force) or that any of them aren't trying/succeeding to get some more but it's admittedly not impossible considering everything else.

Either they were just really sure of themselves or they badly planned due to a reactionary attitude or they didn't have any wmd like you said.

If you stand by your Tassadar position on Char, you have to give me that one that it's pretty unlikely and mostly doylist that they couldn't just blow her up and be done with it!

What do you mean by "terrorist" attack? Do you mean like suicide/kamikaze tactics or do you mean via stealth/surprise tactics?

Surprise tactic. But again, we're not talking about a small nuke here. We're talking about planet destroying WMD. Basically what I mean is: jump out of warp space in range to target's planet/platform/whatever, blow up everything, jump back in warp space, repeat.

Given that the EU novels retcon that Mengsk wanted to kill Kerrigan all along, this doesn't excuse why they didn't just resort to Apocalypse-class nukes on Char. Also, it doesn't stop them using the normal tactical nuke that is used liberally in all other instances to get rid of the Zerg presence. They don't know about the Zerg leaders being immortal so that wouldn't have factored into their decision about using them. They would only know that nukes are good at killing a lot of Zerg and that that would be good enough.

Possible. They'd still want to investigate first though. Sounds a bit like overreacting to nuke the planet just because of a dream.

If it is indeed true that the vast majority of the fleet and their WMDs went back to Aiur and still lost against the Zerg fleet, this is just more proof that the Zerg can go toe-to-toe with the Protoss in straight up military engagements...

Sorry, Bird. It's not looking good for your position that the Protoss would've realistically (in a Watsonian way) wiped the Zerg in any straight-up fight.

Argh Tura you're killing me there. That's not what I was arguing at all. You really interpreted this differently than what I meant. Here some of the things I said before:

The war was a stalemate before because 1. the overmind was immortal and 2. because the zerg didn't know where Aiur was. You remove either of these constraint and the scale tips.

zergs are logically only really effective at sewing chaos in mostly static targets through blitzkrieg of endless numbers.

Aiur is a static target

Gradius

12-09-2017, 01:30 PM

There's gotta be some in-universe reason why they don't use WMDs all the time though. The universe just wouldn't function properly without one so you have to assume there is one.

Maybe the only time it was viable to glass planets was when the protoss had a critical mass of spaceships. So then when the main fleet retreated from the K-sector, it just wasn't viable anymore. For example, maybe Tassadar would obliterate a hive cluster with the Gantrithor, but it's his only ship and too valuable to lose. It would get swarmed and blown up by scourge right away.

Afaik, they came for Kerrigan and she was on the platform, not directly on Char. You're defending her and her main base of operation in Omega. It is similar, just no use of super nukes and etc. Either they were just really sure of themselves or they badly planned due to a reactionary attitude or they didn't have any wmd like you said.
I thought Kerrigan was on the surface though with the bulk of her broods. She even says "you'll need to hold off the invaders by yourself."

If they captured Omega they could turn it into a fortress to shoot down any zerg fliers and then glass the surface with impunity.

Visions of Khas

12-09-2017, 05:27 PM

For example, maybe Tassadar would obliterate a hive cluster with the Gantrithor, but it's his only ship and too valuable to lose. It would get swarmed and blown up by scourge right away.

That would make sense. Destroy a zerg colony, and it's back in, what, a day? Lose the Gantrithor, and lose hundreds of precious protoss lives, plus a monolithic strategic & tactical asset and investment that cannot be recouped so easily.

The zerg can literally eat worlds and rebuild their numbers. Protoss and terrans aren't so fortunate.

Turalyon

12-10-2017, 12:23 AM

Huhhh Tura, that was my whole argument :p If you don't kill the zerg leaders, you will eventually get screwed no matter how many days you run the WMD weed-eater. Direct military engagements are probably doomed. I've said it a bunch of times.

I didn't say they could go toe to toe in direct combat. I said if the leader wasn't immortal, they wouldn't be able to go toe to toe(assuming they still don't know about Aiur)

Regardless, in direct military engagement, it favors the Zerg and I'm not arguing against that position.

Argh Tura you're killing me there. That's not what I was arguing at all. You really interpreted this differently than what I meant.

Hm. Then why did you start off saying this?

Also of note, is that, even though the Overmind was immortal, the Zerg couldn't win either. The reason for that is probably because zergs are logically only really effective at sewing chaos in mostly static targets through blitzkrieg of endless numbers. In other words, it was cat(protoss) and mouse(zerg) before the discovery of Aiur.

It seemed pretty clear at the time that you never thought the Zerg and Protoss were an equal match-up regardless of specific factors. Apologies for the misunderstanding.

Besides, having the leader being immortal is really irrelevant as to whether are fully equipped force of Zerg and a fully equipped force of Protoss can engage each other equally.

But I guess we could also start talking about the possibility of Protoss blowing every planets where the zerg exist and then perpetually having ships blow up the overmind and the cerebrates if you want :D

Indeed, this is exactly what I thought you meant in the beginning when you implied the contest was always asymmetric in favour of the Protoss.

Lets assume that in this moment in time, his ship is able to use WMD and he's done investigating and he doesn't care about whatever DT and Terran might still be on Char. The problem remains that the Zerg are after him and he doesn't have much backup. The likelihood of successfully deploying his big lasers and living to tell the tale in this situation is debatable wouldn't you agree? Maybe he can shoot, but if the Zergs are after him, how long can he shoot? You don't think it makes more sense to go back to Aiur and ask for backup?

Regardless, in direct military engagement, it favors the Zerg and I'm not arguing against that position.

Well, given that I'm coming from a justifiable misinterpretation of your position that the "Zerg are never equal to the Protoss in a general military engagement" (see above), I would've answered this by saying that the destruction wrought by their access to WMDs would've ensured that Tassadar would've been able to keep the Zerg at bay to either retreat or call in more reinforcements since the Zerg are not instantaneously regenerating when killed. Keeping with this train of thought, Tass would have still had access to WMDs upon their retreat from Tarsonis (there'd be no compunction against using WMDs in a space/fleet combat), unless he specifically lost that ability at Tarsonis or somewhere between then and arriving on Char. If that was so, that would be considered a convenient Doylist excuse or that the Zerg are more than equal enough to the Protoss to engage them despite having WMDs being aimed at them.

Since I now know your position is that the Zerg can engage the Protoss even with WMDs at the latters disposal and their willingness to use them, my explanation above is kinda moot. :D

If you stand by your Tassadar position on Char, you have to give me that one that it's pretty unlikely and mostly doylist that they couldn't just blow her up and be done with it!

Granted but then again, I was going off a misinterpretation of your position.

Surprise tactic. But again, we're not talking about a small nuke here. We're talking about planet destroying WMD. Basically what I mean is: jump out of warp space in range to target's planet/platform/whatever, blow up everything, jump back in warp space, repeat.

I had a feeling you were going to say this and go down this path. Awhile back in another thread, I queried why the Terrans and Protoss don't just employ their warp/FTL/teleporting capabilities in their ballistic/explosive weaponry since there wouldn't then need to be direct and conventional engagements of military forces. An object being propelled at speeds faster-than-light will obliterate anything, nukes being teleported into sensitive areas, wormholes being manipulated into offensive uses (ala Farscape) would be considered possible with the sci-fi tech presented here. The consensus was rather mixed but the conclusion sorta ended up either being a Doylist excuse (ie: it would make the universe untenable if it was possible) or a very weak Watsonian/pseudo Doylist explanation (ie: it ain't possible due to "limitations" of tech or there being heretofore unknown countermeasures).

If we're attempting a Watsonian explanation though, I would have to say that the Zerg would never allow/put themselves in a situation where a planet-destroying WMD would adversely/significantly affect them knowing that they exist and can be potentially used against them at any time. Kerrigan would be even more acutely aware of this given that her immortality status is debatable. I mean, we're not really sure whether Kerrigan herself was actually present on Char Aleph - just like what Grad alludes to.

Possible. They'd still want to investigate first though. Sounds a bit like overreacting to nuke the planet just because of a dream.

It's relative. It's kinda overreactive for Mengsk to send his best general and a fully kitted army out to a desolate planet because of a dream, too (even Duke is incredulous but he's there to do a job/follow orders). If he was suspecting Zerg to be there and that he's out to enforce his policy of "destroying all xenos", it wouldn't be unreasonable for Duke to be packing some nukes with him as well. Also, its unknown whether Duke was given specific orders to find Kerrigan because we only hear later, from Kerrigan, that Duke was only really out there because Mengsk was one of the people she called out to psionically. From Duke's POV, he seems intent to only just kill Zerg, so maybe Mengsk sent him out there to ensure that she was dead... ;)

There's gotta be some in-universe reason why they don't use WMDs all the time though. The universe just wouldn't function properly without one so you have to assume there is one.

I can only assume that the destruction caused by WMDs would be such that for the Terrans it would be uneconomical for the aggressor to ruin/rebuild the worlds they'd probably intend to own/occupy (the reason for all Terran action). As for the Protoss, I'd assume they'd only use them if they thought the situation was out of hand and only in specific instances.

Maybe the only time it was viable to glass planets was when the protoss had a critical mass of spaceships. So then when the main fleet retreated from the K-sector, it just wasn't viable anymore. For example, maybe Tassadar would obliterate a hive cluster with the Gantrithor, but it's his only ship and too valuable to lose. It would get swarmed and blown up by scourge right away.

But their WMD has extreme range since it can be fired from orbit onto the surface of a world with precision, so it could easily be protected by a fleet or point-defense when being used. Makes you wonder why the Protoss don't use such weapons in fleet combat since it would give them first initiative in all such conflicts. Maybe their destructive power and accuracy is limited to only planetary/relatively stationary targets?

The zerg can literally eat worlds and rebuild their numbers. Protoss and terrans aren't so fortunate.

I'd like to think that the Zerg ability to rebuild isn't instantaneous/fast enough to be near instantaneous nor that they're endless or that there isn't some cost to such losses as the lore tends to suggest. I would like to think that destroying a hive cluster would have some significant detriment in setting the Zerg back and allow the aggressor who destroyed said cluster some advantage, even if its only just a relatively short window of time. The Zerg do need resources to get those numbers afterall.

Zoar

12-10-2017, 05:50 AM

I remember reading in the Field Manual of Terrans incredulous that the Protoss don't rule the galaxy and coming to the only logical conclusion being that the Protoss don't want to.

Visions of Khas

12-10-2017, 10:03 AM

I remember reading in the Field Manual of Terrans incredulous that the Protoss don't rule the galaxy and coming to the only logical conclusion being that the Protoss don't want to.

I'm not sure about the Field Manual, but Stetmann's notes on khaydarin crystals states this outright. With the power at the protoss' disposal, they should have no problem;

I've just observed the smallest details from it and somehow wrangled a few tidbits when the crystal... helped me. I don't understand how the protoss can possess technology of this magnitude and not rule the known universe. Perhaps they simply don't want to?

It may have something to do with cultural taboos emerging from the Aeon of Strife or time of Discord. in StarCraft vanilla, the Overmind states that there is power within the khaydarin undreamed of by the protoss, though this can be taken any number of ways.

ragnarok

12-10-2017, 06:26 PM

I'm not sure about the Field Manual, but Stetmann's notes on khaydarin crystals states this outright. With the power at the protoss' disposal, they should have no problem;

I recall that too, said it had something to do with their tradition and honor and all that. Really makes you wonder if we have a Protoss campaign focused on the Tal'darim

drakolobo

12-11-2017, 10:56 AM

the taldarim have the disposition but not the resources, son a parasitic faction, its advantage with appearances to otrs protoss is only the use of psychic drugs and their lack of scruples

KaiserStratosTygo

12-11-2017, 11:17 AM

i'm 100% in favor of removing Kerrigan and making the story more faction based, she was the worst part of every StarCraft installment to date.

"We're simply saying that a reboot with Kerrigan removed isn't strictly necessary or desirable. "

Speak for yourself, I'm into it

I feel as though a great many people aren't understanding this dude's point.

Kerrigan being a part of this established canon is 100% irrelevant when it comes to an alternate history campaign, I'm not really understanding the disconnect here?

Nobody here is denying that Kerrigan the Queen of Sue is not a pivotal character in the established franchise, its that a lot of us don't give a shit and rather have story lines that don't rely on her to fuck up the narrative, so fanboys (not anyone in particular) can wet their pants when she WTFpwns the entire universe without consequence.

Oh well, a shame this dude ran away from this, really should've stood his ground instead of throwing his spine out the window : /

sandwich_bird

12-11-2017, 12:26 PM

Hm. Then why did you start off saying this?

They couldn't win because they didn't know where Aiur was is what I meant. I probably should have combined that sentence with the one after to make it clearer. Sorry, I can understand how that could be misleading!

If we're attempting a Watsonian explanation though, I would have to say that the Zerg would never allow/put themselves in a situation where a planet-destroying WMD would adversely/significantly affect them knowing that they exist and can be potentially used against them at any time. Kerrigan would be even more acutely aware of this given that her immortality status is debatable. I mean, we're not really sure whether Kerrigan herself was actually present on Char Aleph - just like what Grad alludes to.

The question is: can you really avoid such a situation? As long as you know where Kerrigan/the zerg leader is and as long as the technology is there, it's unavoidable. For BW to make sense after the betrayal, if the WMD are availble, Kerrigan would need to be in hiding imo. Strategically, it would make perfect sense to do so since she is the one and only vulnerable weak spot to the zerg.

Speaking of which, technically speaking, if she can infest protoss (as seen with Raszagal) and humans, wouldn't it make more sense for her to never really establish a central base of operation? And just continuously covertly infest major targets until she own the world? Presumably, she can also engineer plagues and what not. Why does anyone even bother doing "conventional" fights in this universe :p

It's relative. It's kinda overreactive for Mengsk to send his best general and a fully kitted army out to a desolate planet because of a dream, too

Fair point!

I thought Kerrigan was on the surface though with the bulk of her broods. She even says "you'll need to hold off the invaders by yourself."

Plausible but the full quote is:

Cerebrate, our scouts have just identified three separate fleets approaching this platform. With Duran having disappeared, and the bulk of my broods still on the surface of Char, you'll need to hold off the invaders by yourself.

The "by yourself" part could refer to the broods on the surface or Duran disappearance. Whoever wrote the wiki for omega seems to think Kerri was on the platform (not really a convincing argument, just saying it). But I agree that it's unclear. Could be either at this point.

ragnarok

12-11-2017, 01:41 PM

Speak for yourself, I'm into it

I feel as though a great many people aren't understanding this dude's point.

Kerrigan being a part of this established canon is 100% irrelevant when it comes to an alternate history campaign, I'm not really understanding the disconnect here?

Nobody here is denying that Kerrigan the Queen of Sue is not a pivotal character in the established franchise, its that a lot of us don't give a shit and rather have story lines that don't rely on her to fuck up the narrative, so fanboys (not anyone in particular) can wet their pants when she WTFpwns the entire universe without consequence.

Oh well, a shame this dude ran away from this, really should've stood his ground instead of throwing his spine out the window : /

I really wish you'd quit portraying her as that, Stratos. Regardless the whole faction focused matter I believe would be necessary. Though I'm surprised you felt this war towards her by the time of BW, since it was necessary for her to gain control of the swarm this way

KaiserStratosTygo

12-11-2017, 02:54 PM

"I really wish you'd quit portraying her as that,"

They shouldn't have written her as such :>

ragnarok

12-11-2017, 02:57 PM

They shouldn't have written her as such :>

They chose the easy way out instead of trying to develop her as having better qualities. Ironically, in the Flashpoint book Kerrigan said similar lines to Raynor, that the zerg chose her because she hardly understood anything outside of killing, which suited the swarm just fine

Gradius

12-11-2017, 03:21 PM

i'm 100% in favor of removing Kerrigan and making the story more faction based, she was the worst part of every StarCraft installment to date.

Speak for yourself, I'm into it

I feel as though a great many people aren't understanding this dude's point.

Kerrigan being a part of this established canon is 100% irrelevant when it comes to an alternate history campaign, I'm not really understanding the disconnect here?

Nobody here is denying that Kerrigan the Queen of Sue is not a pivotal character in the established franchise, its that a lot of us don't give a shit and rather have story lines that don't rely on her to fuck up the narrative, so fanboys (not anyone in particular) can wet their pants when she WTFpwns the entire universe without consequence.

Oh well, a shame this dude ran away from this, really should've stood his ground instead of throwing his spine out the window : /
I hate Kerrigan too but:
1) A fan fiction or custom campaign will never be canon. Kerrigan is in every SC game besides Novert Ops. It’s not really “StarCraft” without her, and I like SC more than I hate Kerrigan.
2) Go ahead and make that AU campaign. But theres no guarantee any other alternate story will be any good or even better than StarCraft just because Kerrigan is missing. If it is, I’ll play it, but I doubt even 5% of the people that played SC2 will even hear about it.

Otherwise, as I’ve stated multiple times, I’m totally down for a reboot without Kerrigan. Or maybe with Kerrigan where she’s a side character and underpowered.

ragnarok

12-11-2017, 03:36 PM

I hate Kerrigan too but:
1) A fan fiction or custom campaign will never be canon. Kerrigan is in every SC game besides Novert Ops. It’s not really “StarCraft” without her, and I like SC more than I hate Kerrigan.
2) Go ahead and make that AU campaign. But theres no guarantee any other alternate story will be any good or even better than StarCraft just because Kerrigan is missing. If it is, I’ll play it, but I doubt even 5% of the people that played SC2 will even hear about it.

Otherwise, as I’ve stated multiple times, I’m totally down for a reboot without Kerrigan. Or maybe with Kerrigan where she’s a side character and underpowered.

Underpowering her is exactly my idea right now, Gradius. You can argue that fanfics aren't canon, but their purpose is what the author wants/hopes the direction the SC universe will go (something Blizzard will pick up again in about 90 years). Besides, as of Blizzcon 2017 they said Coop will get the majority of development, meaning storywise, the SC universe no longer exists. There's little left except for fanfics/custom campaigns.

Turalyon

12-12-2017, 04:17 AM

They couldn't win because they didn't know where Aiur was is what I meant.

Ah, it's getting even clearer now! When you said "win", you actually meant "ultimately win" when I thought you meant "win, like in general armed conflict".

The question is: can you really avoid such a situation? As long as you know where Kerrigan/the zerg leader is and as long as the technology is there, it's unavoidable. For BW to make sense after the betrayal, if the WMD are availble, Kerrigan would need to be in hiding imo. Strategically, it would make perfect sense to do so since she is the one and only vulnerable weak spot to the zerg.

Sure they can avoid it. The Overmind was doing this/not an actual target for such attacks until it made itself into one on Aiur. I mean, we're talking about this gigantic mountain that would otherwise be immobile!

As to Kerrigan in BW, apart from select appearances in The Stand and The Iron Fist campaigns, she doesn't make a physical appearance on the battlefield in the Queen of Blades campaign to allow an opportunity to have WMDs used against her. Relative to that, it's actually more incredulous that Zeratul and Artanis just don't execute her on the spot when she murders Aldaris first hand in front of them or when she appears in front of Dugalle to gloat after the UED having secured the neo-Overmind!!

Also, knowing that she's the one that's openly deceiving them and planned to do so from the start, she would have made precautions against reprisal if they did somehow figure her out or decided to take action against her first. She is well aware that they don't really trust her and she doesn't trust them.

Speaking of which, technically speaking, if she can infest protoss (as seen with Raszagal) and humans, wouldn't it make more sense for her to never really establish a central base of operation? And just continuously covertly infest major targets until she own the world? Presumably, she can also engineer plagues and what not. Why does anyone even bother doing "conventional" fights in this universe :p

I hear you. The plot device of having her mind control Raszagal is really only there on a Doylist level to generate a dramatic moment with Zeratul when he's forced to kill her later. Don't get me wrong, it's an awesome moment but having it this way certainly causes massive fridge logic on a Watsonian level. Not only does it justifiably fuel the accusations of Kerrigan being "Mary Sue", it's one of the reasons why it fed into my conclusion that BW should've been the end. The Zerg are too OP/broken in BW that any natural continuation from BW that doesn't involve total Zerg victory wouldn't be "real" on a Watsonian level or it'd be just an overtly meaningless Doylist exercise.

ragnarok

12-12-2017, 07:13 AM

I hear you. The plot device of having her mind control Raszagal is really only there on a Doylist level to generate a dramatic moment with Zeratul when he's forced to kill her later. Don't get me wrong, it's an awesome moment but having it this way certainly causes massive fridge logic on a Watsonian level. Not only does it justifiably fuel the accusations of Kerrigan being "Mary Sue", it's one of the reasons why it fed into my conclusion that BW should've been the end. The Zerg are too OP/broken in BW that any natural continuation from BW that doesn't involve total Zerg victory wouldn't be "real" on a Watsonian level or it'd be just an overtly meaningless Doylist exercise.

It's for this reason why many had wanted to put Kerrigan in a similar bind to force her to kill Raynor or something like that, so she would go through something similar. The whole mind control like that simply didn't make sense unless there was proof that at a certain age, Nerazim psionic abilities greatly decrease

sandwich_bird

12-12-2017, 02:09 PM

Sure they can avoid it. The Overmind was doing this/not an actual target for such attacks until it made itself into one on Aiur. I mean, we're talking about this gigantic mountain that would otherwise be immobile!

Speaking of which, where was the overmind before he went to Aiur? Is that ever mentioned?

ragnarok

12-12-2017, 02:36 PM

Speaking of which, where was the overmind before he went to Aiur? Is that ever mentioned?

Wasn't he always on Char prior to the Aiur invasion?

Turalyon

12-13-2017, 03:34 AM

Speaking of which, where was the overmind before he went to Aiur? Is that ever mentioned?

It's never directly mentioned. There's only hints in the manual where it says it's rumoured the Overmind resides in the heart of the Tiamat broods fleet.

At the time, I just took the manual description at its word that it was a "bodiless entity" and that it always had been up until it decided not to be. Also, the Overmind mentions being made manifest twice. This implies that the Overmind may not be clear or obvious in a physical way until it is made apparent/manifest. If it already had a body, it may/would have said something closer to or about revealing itself, emerging (from being hidden) or arriving instead.

ragnarok

12-13-2017, 01:15 PM

It's never directly mentioned. There's only hints in the manual where it says it's rumoured the Overmind resides in the heart of the Tiamat broods fleet.

But where was the Tiamat brood the whole time? Because I don't recall SC1 ever confirmed it was always on Char

Gradius

12-13-2017, 03:30 PM

Cerebrates are bodiless entities too as they just spawn somewhere else when killed. A true bodiless entity would just be a psionic energy being and I don’t think the Overmind really qualifies. His portrait is an eyeball after all and SC2 decided the eyeball is part of its in game model. I also don’t see the reason to include the blurb about him being guarded by the Tiamat brood either unless it’s true. Being “made manifest” means he grew a new body on Aiur. Or maybe that was him in the meteorite, I don’t know.

Turalyon

12-13-2017, 10:38 PM

But where was the Tiamat brood the whole time?

Somewhere in space?

Cerebrates are bodiless entities too as they just spawn somewhere else when killed. A true bodiless entity would just be a psionic energy being and I don’t think the Overmind really qualifies.

Eh, I dunno whether being capable of being resurrected really counts as being a "bodiless entity". I know there's no evidence for this fanon of mine but I think that a cerebrate isn't capable of "existing" without or outside of its physical form, whilst the Overmind can. The way it's described in the manual, the Overmind appears to be a "gestalt" in that it's not any one thing in particular but something greater than the sum of its parts. Being representative of the base drive of every single Zerg and a collective consciousness would suggest that the Overmind exists at all levels within the Zerg. The Overmind wouldn't need a "body" per se because the entire Zerg swarm is the Overminds body.

As an analogy, I see the Overmind as kinda like the emergent intelligence that arises from collective Geth (of Mass Effect) programs running together (and no, I'm not saying they are the same in every aspect - just only the one I described). The Overmind isn't any one body much like the Geth aren't any one "platform".

I also don’t see the reason to include the blurb about him being guarded by the Tiamat brood either unless it’s true.

I included it because it's the only clue/hint in the manual that the Overmind exists as a physical body/occupies space and is located somewhere. Even then it's suspect because the quote says "It's speculated that the Overmind itself is protected deep within the safety of this living fleet".

Being “made manifest” means he grew a new body on Aiur. Or maybe that was him in the meteorite, I don’t know.

"Made manifest" means to become apparent, evident, obvious. This implies it wasn't apparent, evident or obvious before, which coincides with the possibility of it not actually having a body, which in turn, would make sense since it was last and previously described as a "bodiless entity" in the manual.

Visions of Khas

12-13-2017, 10:50 PM

This implies it wasn't apparent, evident or obvious before, which coincides with the possibility of it not actually having a body, which in turn, would make sense since it was last and previously described as a "bodiless entity" in the manual.

... Which runs counter to another section in the manual, describing the Overmind being protected by the Tiamet brood, implying a body needing protection.

Perhaps the Overmind's bodies are more transient than the Cerebrates' were. Or the Tiamet always takes point when the Overmind decided the inhabit a shell body, as seen on Aiur and later Char.

At a certain point we have to admit we're trying to fill in the holes, and the cement we're using is called "fan fiction" and speculation.

ragnarok

12-14-2017, 12:52 AM

... Which runs counter to another section in the manual, describing the Overmind being protected by the Tiamet brood, implying a body needing protection.

Perhaps the Overmind's bodies are more transient than the Cerebrates' were. Or the Tiamet always takes point when the Overmind decided the inhabit a shell body, as seen on Aiur and later Char.

At a certain point we have to admit we're trying to fill in the holes, and the cement we're using is called "fan fiction" and speculation.

That's what I didn't really understand, VoK. It made it seem like until the Aiur invasion, the Overmind was completely formless. After all, the definition of "manifest" (given the Overmind's words in the mission briefing) is to make clear to the eye. But that doesn't necessarily have to mean the Overmind never had a body AT ALL. Maybe it just meant it hid its body really well, wherever it was.

This would then be consistent with the 2nd Overmind. As Kerrigan was telling Artanis and Zeratul, it was still an infant and cannot control the swarm. It could mean without maturity, it couldn't effectively hide its body like the 1st Overmind could.

Now, regarding your part of the Overmind being protected by the Tiamat brood, if that was in the manual, did that take place BEFORE the events of SC1? Because if yes, then it should imply the Overmind had a body. Why would a formless entity need protection? (You can't exactly kill what you can see and don't know it exists)

Turalyon

12-14-2017, 03:00 AM

... Which runs counter to another section in the manual, describing the Overmind being protected by the Tiamet brood, implying a body needing protection.

Not really. I already took this into account in the very same post of mine that you replied to:

Even then it's suspect because the quote says "It's speculated that the Overmind itself is protected deep within the safety of this living fleet".

Gradius

12-14-2017, 10:42 AM

Eh, I dunno whether being capable of being resurrected really counts as being a "bodiless entity". I know there's no evidence for this fanon of mine but I think that a cerebrate isn't capable of "existing" without or outside of its physical form, whilst the Overmind can. The way it's described in the manual, the Overmind appears to be a "gestalt" in that it's not any one thing in particular but something greater than the sum of its parts. Being representative of the base drive of every single Zerg and a collective consciousness would suggest that the Overmind exists at all levels within the Zerg. The Overmind wouldn't need a "body" per se because the entire Zerg swarm is the Overminds body.

As an analogy, I see the Overmind as kinda like the emergent intelligence that arises from collective Geth (of Mass Effect) programs running together (and no, I'm not saying they are the same in every aspect - just only the one I described). The Overmind isn't any one body much like the Geth aren't any one "platform".
This is usually my go-to interpretation of the Overmind because I love it so much, however, it still has to have emergent properties that are just more than the sum of its parts that then make it its own character. The Xel'Naga created the Overmind themselves and the manual says "the Overmind coalesced into a semi-sentient being" and "As time passed, the Overmind developed the rudiments of personality and advanced intellect." The Overmind didn't start with these qualities, whereas the Geth gestalt does when they all join, so it's not really accurate to say that the Overmind exists everywhere or that it's merely "all zerg". It's still its own thing and I'd say it makes sense that it does need a container for its personality and memories. Also, who opened the warp rifts for the swarm? I always assumed it was Overmind/Cerebrates and they need a body for that. They are all bodiless in the sense that they're not tied to one body and jump/switch one at their whim especially if they get killed, but I really don't see the Overmind as a true bodiless entity who just hangs out in the ether.

If we're taking SC2 canon into account, Blizzard decided that its eyeball is also its in-game model, and that was its portrait the whole game in SC1. That's pretty overwhelming evidence that it was in a physical body the whole time as far as I'm concerned, though of course "anything is possible".

"Made manifest" means to become apparent, evident, obvious. This implies it wasn't apparent, evident or obvious before, which coincides with the possibility of it not actually having a body, which in turn, would make sense since it was last and previously described as a "bodiless entity" in the manual.
You can also take that to mean that it wasn't apparent, evident or obvious before because it was hiding out in space instead of implanting itself on the front lines.

Not really. I already took this into account in the very same post of mine that you replied to:
The fact that the line is in there to begin with sort of implies he does or at least can have one. Otherwise if it was a true bodiless entity there'd be no reason to speculate it's in any location.

sandwich_bird

12-14-2017, 12:35 PM

ragnarok

12-14-2017, 03:09 PM

ragnarok

12-14-2017, 03:17 PM

drakolobo

12-14-2017, 07:25 PM

If it was truly bodiless, then I don't like the fact that it died when Tass crashed into his physical manifestation. This brings too much questions. Also, why do cerebrates need to join together like in BW to recreate it?

I'm fairly confident Blizzard intended it to not be bodiless though the idea is cool.
there is a difference between a mind and a brain, the xelnaga built a mind with zerg mental connection, that is the sum of all, individually they are beasts together they are an intelligent being.the basic and primitive infrastructure of the overmind is the brains of all zerg.

for me, the manual is correct, the overmind is something incorporeal is similar to being empty in the frontline manga, it is unrooted with what is a mind and the cerebrates, they are the equivalent at the same time neurons a physical infrastructure
more specialized and in a lesser way the hives, they are also at the same time that they are fraction of the identity of the overmind, and this is demonstrated when we see their real form when their bodies are destroyed, as beings of energy, and as the damage of a cerebrate directly damaged the overmind.

The conformation of a body seems in the temple xelnaga of aiur and put in a vulnerable state seems, was a need to execute what made amon in LoV, corrupt the khala. at the end is his corpse was the axis of the rebirth of Amon and his corrupting influence

*the union of the cerebrate in broodwar is the same reflection of how the human brain after suffering catastrophic damage tries to assemble with what remains and results in a completely different person. that was the second overmind

ragnarok

12-14-2017, 09:47 PM

*the union of the cerebrate in broodwar is the same reflection of how the human brain after suffering catastrophic damage tries to assemble with what remains and results in a completely different person. that was the second overmind

Hmmmm, then tell me something: if the 2nd Overmind was allowed to mature and no one tried influencing it, do you believe it would have taken the zerg in a completely different path compared to the 1st one?

Turalyon

12-14-2017, 11:45 PM

This is usually my go-to interpretation of the Overmind because I love it so much, however, it still has to have emergent properties that are just more than the sum of its parts that then make it its own character. The Xel'Naga created the Overmind themselves and the manual says "the Overmind coalesced into a semi-sentient being" and "As time passed, the Overmind developed the rudiments of personality and advanced intellect." The Overmind didn't start with these qualities, whereas the Geth gestalt does when they all join, so it's not really accurate to say that the Overmind exists everywhere or that it's merely "all zerg". It's still its own thing and I'd say it makes sense that it does need a container for its personality and memories. Also, who opened the warp rifts for the swarm? I always assumed it was Overmind/Cerebrates and they need a body for that. They are all bodiless in the sense that they're not tied to one body and jump/switch one at their whim especially if they get killed, but I really don't see the Overmind as a true bodiless entity who just hangs out in the ether.

I don't necessarily see the Overmind as a ghost-like being that can exist outside of the Zerg or that it has no physical representation either since, afterall, I do see the Zerg race as a whole being the physical representation of the Overmind. I just find it odd that something that is supposed to represent the entire Zerg Swarm in hivemind is limited to a single physical shell.

If we're taking SC2 canon into account, Blizzard decided that its eyeball is also its in-game model, and that was its portrait the whole game in SC1. That's pretty overwhelming evidence that it was in a physical body the whole time as far as I'm concerned, though of course "anything is possible".

Yeah, I wasn't including Sc2 there because I was talking about my "at the time" opinion of the Overmind and Sc2 hadn't come out then.

You can also take that to mean that it wasn't apparent, evident or obvious before because it was hiding out in space instead of implanting itself on the front lines.

Most definitely but choosing the word "manifest" to denote coming out of hiding seems like an inappropriate use of that word.

Otherwise if it was a true bodiless entity there'd be no reason to speculate it's in any location.

Well, speculation does not need to be bound to actual truth for it to still occur. Because no-one has ever seen it or knows anything remotely much about it, one is free to speculate where it's at, if it does indeed have a current body to be located at all. Because it's factually described as a bodiless entity, we can also speculate that it may not always be in one specific physical body at any one time.

If it was truly bodiless, then I don't like the fact that it died when Tass crashed into his physical manifestation. This brings too much questions. Also, why do cerebrates need to join together like in BW to recreate it?

But the Overmind didn't really die because in BW it's revealed it could be resurrected. Problem solved.

I assume cerebrates joining together to recreate the Overmind is perhaps due to each cerebrate maybe representing an aspect of the Overmind. So, if you join all those aspects together, you would get another Overmind. Probably not the same Overmind as it was before, but an Overmind of some kind. *Shrug*

Gradius

12-15-2017, 07:02 AM

I always thought the Overmind didn’t jump ship before it died because more Cerebrates deaths paralyzed it.

ragnarok

12-15-2017, 01:42 PM

I always thought the Overmind didn’t jump ship before it died because more Cerebrates deaths paralyzed it.

If that's true, then how would you interpret the portal over the Overmind's body right before Tassadar killed it?

Gradius

12-15-2017, 01:59 PM

If that's true, then how would you interpret the portal over the Overmind's body right before Tassadar killed it?
Those were different Cerebrates trying to send reinforcements.

sandwich_bird

12-15-2017, 02:04 PM

But the Overmind didn't really die because in BW it's revealed it could be resurrected. Problem solved.

Didn't die but can be resurrected. Hmmmmmm

Turalyon

12-15-2017, 10:55 PM

Didn't die but can be resurrected. Hmmmmmm

Eh, I meant "die for good/reals" - like how death usually and supposedly works. :p

Anyways, I had always sorta fanoned that the Overmind didn't actually die at all at the end of Sc1. Given that it was supposedly bodiless, that it was somewhat convenenient to suddenly have a body that was vulnerable and that it was somewhat ambiguous what direct purpose the physical manifestation on Aiur was really about, I had reckoned that the shell that landed on Aiur was sort of like a node to a network of intergalactic Overmind nodes. It landed on Aiur because of its special properties and to act as a connection to the wider Overmind network and a beacon to attract all other Zerg around the universe to that very spot.

By destroying that node, the Koprulu Zerg Swarm became disconnected from that greater hivemind network. The attempts by the cerebrates to join and become another Overmind were not really doing so to resurrect the Overmind per se but to reconnect to that hivemind network. In essence, this explanation could still be construed as "bringing back the Overmind".

ragnarok

12-16-2017, 10:41 AM

Those were different Cerebrates trying to send reinforcements.

Right on top of its body? You'd think they would have put the portal a little bit further from the Overmind if that was the case....

drakolobo

12-16-2017, 07:50 PM

Hmmmm, then tell me something: if the 2nd Overmind was allowed to mature and no one tried influencing it, do you believe it would have taken the zerg in a completely different path compared to the 1st one?

because it would have similarities with the original because cerebrate are facets of the overmind but obviously there is much information to be lost with the death of the overmind since it is saved a lot, for itself so the recreation of the overmind would not be completely faithful

ragnarok

12-17-2017, 05:30 AM

because it would have similarities with the original because cerebrate are facets of the overmind but obviously there is much information to be lost with the death of the overmind since it is saved a lot, for itself so the recreation of the overmind would not be completely faithful

Hmmm, he Overmind could have withheld info from its cerebrates so that the new Overmind wouldn't have had the same knowledge. In a way I guess you can almost argue that the 2nd Overmind is just a clone of the original, and since memory cells don't pass on, a clone could act very differently compared to the original.

sandwich_bird

12-19-2017, 11:30 AM

Eh, I meant "die for good/reals" - like how death usually and supposedly works. :p

Anyways, I had always sorta fanoned that the Overmind didn't actually die at all at the end of Sc1. Given that it was supposedly bodiless, that it was somewhat convenenient to suddenly have a body that was vulnerable and that it was somewhat ambiguous what direct purpose the physical manifestation on Aiur was really about, I had reckoned that the shell that landed on Aiur was sort of like a node to a network of intergalactic Overmind nodes. It landed on Aiur because of its special properties and to act as a connection to the wider Overmind network and a beacon to attract all other Zerg around the universe to that very spot.

By destroying that node, the Koprulu Zerg Swarm became disconnected from that greater hivemind network. The attempts by the cerebrates to join and become another Overmind were not really doing so to resurrect the Overmind per se but to reconnect to that hivemind network. In essence, this explanation could still be construed as "bringing back the Overmind".

I kinda like this idea. Would be a good excuse to bring him back in the story if anything. Not sure how that could fit with the current sc2 cannon but meh.

Visions of Khas

12-19-2017, 12:55 PM

ragnarok

12-19-2017, 06:24 PM

That seems like an interesting perspective on the Overmind and the Hivemind in general. I think what else would have been interesting is if the cerebrates did wind up creating an entirely new Overmind. What would its evolution be like? It wouldn't have all the cunning and knowledge of the first; it would probably have to sift through literally centuries of knowledge accrued from its cerebrate components. Would it be this schizoidal personality, floundering and attacking everything near it like a frightened animal? Would it recognize the whole swarm as being part of itself, or lash out at it, inadvertently inflicting self-harm? How would the remaining cerebrates deal with this fledgling, inexperienced Overmind?

But, that would require depth and character development, so I know it would be a pipe dream.

It would depend on what it is to experience. That's something I had wanted to know too: if the new Overmind reached maturity, and NONE of the Cerebrates told it anything, would it have taken the swarm in a different direction or not. Of course, if it chose a completely different path, then the fans would say that's going against what the swarm is

Turalyon

12-20-2017, 12:19 AM

I think what else would have been interesting is if the cerebrates did wind up creating an entirely new Overmind. What would its evolution be like? It wouldn't have all the cunning and knowledge of the first; it would probably have to sift through literally centuries of knowledge accrued from its cerebrate components. Would it be this schizoidal personality, floundering and attacking everything near it like a frightened animal? Would it recognize the whole swarm as being part of itself, or lash out at it, inadvertently inflicting self-harm? How would the remaining cerebrates deal with this fledgling, inexperienced Overmind?

Isn't the purpose of reforming/recreating/resurrecting/reconnecting the Overmind supposed to alleviate all those issues in your questions?

The Zerg are supposed to be fractured and "schizoid" without the Overmind, so I imagine the purpose of recreating it is to offer the stability that they used to have. I think those issues you mentioned would've been apparent in BW with the neo-Overmind being immature and all, but not once it was matured. Besides, the Overmind isn't really that complex or varied a personality since it's just a gestalt representation of all the Zergs individual base animal drive to be on top of the food chain, so I can't really imagine the neo-Overmind having trouble or taking very long to getting back towards this state.

sandwich_bird

12-20-2017, 12:22 PM

Besides, the Overmind isn't really that complex or varied a personality since it's just a gestalt representation of all the Zergs individual base animal drive to be on top of the food chain, so I can't really imagine the neo-Overmind having trouble or taking very long to getting back towards this state.

I mean, that's a bit reductionist don't you think? That is his goal/motivation but that doesn't define his heuristics and those, are where the interesting details come from. Even when you look on the surface, as shown in SC1, you can get a glimpse of the complexity of his personality in the way he approach Kerrigan and etc. In SC2, they briefly offered a lot more depth to him (even though I hate the direction they went in).

ragnarok

12-20-2017, 01:01 PM

I mean, that's a bit reductionist don't you think? That is his goal/motivation but that doesn't define his heuristics and those, are where the interesting details come from. Even when you look on the surface, as shown in SC1, you can get a glimpse of the complexity of his personality in the way he approach Kerrigan and etc. In SC2, they briefly offered a lot more depth to him (even though I hate the direction they went in).

Are you sure that's depth? When LotV confirmed that "Tassadar" was actually Ouros, people have begun to speculate if what he told Zeratul back in the "Echoes of the Future" was even the truth, or merely BS just so Zeratul would do his bidding to deal with Amon

sandwich_bird

12-20-2017, 01:30 PM

Who knows at this point. It's all such a mess. It could have well been Ouros.

Turalyon

12-20-2017, 07:34 PM

I mean, that's a bit reductionist don't you think?

A "bit", yes. That's not a bad thing though. The Zerg are the most well-defined race because of the purity of their purpose and are largely successful because of this simplicity.

That is his goal/motivation but that doesn't define his heuristics and those

I would disagree. Much like any other living being in existence, the Overmind is quite myopic on certain things and only ultimately does things purely for self-interest/it and its "own" benefit. Unlike other living beings, the Overmind doesn't need to hide or couch such sensibilities because it is one with all the Zerg - the only thing that matters. Non-Zerg are irrelevent unless they're something that will serve the Zerg/Overmind goal of being better/perfect and if that's so, they'll eventually become Zerg anyway so it's all good in the end.

Its affection for Kerrigan and the whole "determinant" thing is just still part of the Overmind motivation to become perfect. Having Kerrigan assuages the fear the Overmind has of engaging the Protoss. The Protoss are its ultimate goal and Kerrigan is the stepping stone toward that.

Sc2's interpretation of the Overmind is... different to all that. Apparently, it's not so much seeking supremacy but survival... if it is indeed even capable of doing that given that its enslaved with no free will... and that what you saw in Sc1 was it engaging in doublethink....maybe. Oh and we can't forget that the Zerg we know aren't really the Zerg, the Primal Zerg are! Then it's revealed that the "revelation" in WoL by Tassamind was just a ruse employed by Ouros all along. Sc2 systematically undermines what was the most well-defined race in Sc1. :(

ragnarok

12-20-2017, 10:31 PM

Who knows at this point. It's all such a mess. It could have well been Ouros.

It's why it's a shame he wasn't explained more

KaiserStratosTygo

12-23-2017, 05:47 PM

I hate Kerrigan too but:
1) A fan fiction or custom campaign will never be canon. Kerrigan is in every SC game besides Novert Ops. It’s not really “StarCraft” without her, and I like SC more than I hate Kerrigan.
2) Go ahead and make that AU campaign. But theres no guarantee any other alternate story will be any good or even better than StarCraft just because Kerrigan is missing. If it is, I’ll play it, but I doubt even 5% of the people that played SC2 will even hear about it.

Otherwise, as I’ve stated multiple times, I’m totally down for a reboot without Kerrigan. Or maybe with Kerrigan where she’s a side character and underpowered.

1. Obviously, but StarCraft 2 is canon, so unfotunately all that trash is "StarCraft" now too, so to me personally StarCraft "canon" is dead anyway.
2. Maybe not, but there's a much higher chance that it is due to having the worst aspect of the franchise removed, not a guarantee but a good idea imo.

ragnarok

12-23-2017, 06:06 PM

1. Obviously, but StarCraft 2 is canon, so unfotunately all that trash is "StarCraft" now too, so to me personally StarCraft "canon" is dead anyway.
2. Maybe not, but there's a much higher chance that it is due to having the worst aspect of the franchise removed, not a guarantee but a good idea imo.

Some time in the future I'm going to believe you'll eventually let it all go instead of constantly expecting Blizzard just to redo the whole thing, Stratos....

KaiserStratosTygo

12-24-2017, 11:34 AM

Some time in the future I'm going to believe you'll eventually let it all go instead of constantly expecting Blizzard just to redo the whole thing, Stratos....

Huh..?

I don't "expect" them to do anything other than make more shitty games with diminishing returns for the fans.

ragnarok

12-24-2017, 04:16 PM

Huh..?

I don't "expect" them to do anything other than make more shitty games with diminishing returns for the fans.

Someday you'll change your mind, Stratos. You changed my mind (partially) to be more critical of the storyline after all....

KaiserStratosTygo

12-24-2017, 06:53 PM

"Someday you'll change your mind, Stratos."

Maybe if I slam my head against a wall long enough, sure.

ragnarok

12-25-2017, 08:59 AM

Maybe if I slam my head against a wall long enough, sure.

I'll wait for news of that then

Mislagnissa

01-03-2018, 04:02 PM

Hey everybody! I came back and decided to start over. So last I was around I said that I did not like the direction the Starcraft story went after Episode 1 and linked to a soft reboot in my signature. Nobody can be bothered to read a ten-page timeline, so I will skip straight to the cliffnotes and discussion.

Enumerate is an alternate timeline/universe which makes a few big changes to the plot of Starcraft. It still uses the same overall arc of SC, like the great war and brood war (but still ignores the SC2 retcons entirely). Short version: no QoB, no Duran, no UED, and Zera dies instead of Tass.

Longer version: EN presumes that Kerry dies on Tarsonis (well it actually ignores her existence entirely, but I don’t care about facts), and that in her place the Zerg capture countless psychics and experiment on them to create horrible monsters. Some of these creatures, like the co… co… I cannot pronounce it so I will just call them psi-colonies and mega-minds. They are made by physically fusing people together. Anyway, the psi-colonies and mega-minds may exert control over other Zerg, mimicking overlords and cerebrates, respectively; the psi-colonies can network with one another to control a whole brood. They produce psychic signals that attract the Protoss, kickstarting the invasion when Zeratul leaks military intel (previously the Zerg were operating on intel from before the Aeon of Strife and whatever their probes on the edge of Protoss space could find). When the Overmind dies, they compete with the cerebrates for control of the swarms until he is resurrected.

EN excises the Duran and hybrid plotline, since that’s already the goal of the Zerg. I mean, I have no problem introducing SC2 queens and SC2 hybrids as useful failures, but the fluff behind the Zerg’s desire to assimilate the Protoss is their belief it will make them perfect so they can conquer and remake the universe in their image. They do have a basis in fact, since the Protoss have amazing reality warping power (which is itself a pale shadow of their peak during the First Age; EN uses their original fluff as a young empire still piggybacking on the reverse-engineered tech of their ancestors, not the washed out and dying race they are in SC2) and they can become archons which are basically sapient nuclear fusion reactors with reality-warping power. If the hybrids are just disposable cannon fodder as they were in SC2, then the Zerg plot becomes utterly disappointing IMO.

EN recycles the UED plot, but replaces the UED with the Umojans and KMC that already existed before BW. They join the Dominion and devise weapons to fight the Zerg, who have left broods in Koprulu to wipe out the remaining humans. In addition to bioweapons and anti-psychic weapons, the Terrans also try to enslave Zerg broods, achieving the most success after the death of the Overmind renders the brood vulnerable (the Khalaites do the same thing with khaydarin, and the Nerazim with argus crystals). The Umojans are democratic republicans, so they secretly fund rebels against the Dominion like Raynor. Eventually they use enslaved broods to fight an open war, but the ethical issues make this unpopular.

Lastly, EN decides to have Zeratul sacrifice himself to kill the Overmind rather than Tassadar. I think this has some poetry to it: Zeratul makes up for kickstarting the invasion, and Tassadar lives to teach other Protoss the path of the twilight Templar. I think it all works out in the end.

So feel free to discuss EN in this thread. If you want more details you can read the links I provided in my sig, but I like to play fast and loose with the details.

Currently I am writing the scripts for two short campaigns set in the EN chronology, which will be made in SCMdraft for Remastered.

sandwich_bird

01-04-2018, 10:27 AM

Well, you're certainly not the first to announce your departure but eventually come back :p

I'm curious as to how exactly does Zeratul kill the overmind? Seem like you'll have to retcon even more stuff in vanilla to make this work.

KaiserStratosTygo

01-04-2018, 10:45 AM

Like I said in the original thread, I like this quite a bit, keep working on it, you've got some good stuff here.

Gradius

01-04-2018, 01:26 PM

Agreed. It looks good.

Nissa

01-04-2018, 04:30 PM

Interesting. If it every turns into a story, I'll read it, but for the moment it's a bit too generic to critique.

Visions of Khas

01-04-2018, 04:31 PM

I'm not sure I like Zeratul and Tassadar trading places. Tassadar's character arc is closed out in The Fall pretty satisfactorily. I also feel that Zeratul should have felt more blowback from his role in the Zerg invasion than he did in SCII. Having him sacrifice himself to kill the Overmind feels too "neat and tidy;" he'd too easily find redemption, rather than having to feel the consequences of his actions. I always imagined there would be a warrant for his arrest.

Nissa

01-04-2018, 05:00 PM

But how do you arrest someone for having his mind read by the Overmind? Probably nobody had a clue that was even possible, and given that the Overmind wanted to find Aiur, he probably would have found someone sooner or later to figure out where Aiur is.

Unless Enumerate changes how that happened, of course.

Visions of Khas

01-04-2018, 05:13 PM

Sorry, I think I was subconsciously considering his murder of Raszagal too. I just always figured Zeratul would have been met with more blow back.

KaiserStratosTygo

01-04-2018, 07:11 PM

I personally like the idea of Tassadar being the de-facto leader of the Protoss later on, perhaps slowly getting them out of their state of total failure.

Turalyon

01-04-2018, 11:45 PM

I'm curious as to how exactly does Zeratul kill the overmind? Seem like you'll have to retcon even more stuff in vanilla to make this work.

How would this be a problem? The Overmind is vulnerable to Void powers, so any DT could do the job really. Having Z trade with Tass in the sacrifice role would need some tweaking in that Z would probably be doing it in a less flashy way than what Tassadar did but I think it'd work. Maybe it could be rewritten as Z not doing it as a knowing sacrifice but as a means to gather some more info by interfacing directly with the Overmind one more time but is then subsequently killed by all the Zerg going haywire from the killing blow.

sandwich_bird

01-05-2018, 11:56 AM

How would this be a problem? The Overmind is vulnerable to Void powers, so any DT could do the job really. Having Z trade with Tass in the sacrifice role would need some tweaking in that Z would probably be doing it in a less flashy way than what Tassadar did but I think it'd work. Maybe it could be rewritten as Z not doing it as a knowing sacrifice but as a means to gather some more info by interfacing directly with the Overmind one more time but is then subsequently killed by all the Zerg going haywire from the killing blow.

Well it wouldn't work if Z just leeroyed on the overmind with his voide blade. Presumably he would have had to also crash a ship on the Overmind or do something similar. So was he piloting the Gant? Did he have his own ship? What about the fact that tass combined both psi and void energies together? Was that mandatory to kill the overmind or was that just overkill cause it sounds cool?

Visions of Khas

01-05-2018, 01:42 PM

What about the fact that tass combined both psi and void energies together?
I also saw it as Tassadar forming a massive Archon with the Gantrithor's mass, and plunging it straight into the Overmind.

Turalyon

01-06-2018, 12:59 AM

Well it wouldn't work if Z just leeroyed on the overmind with his voide blade. Presumably he would have had to also crash a ship on the Overmind or do something similar. So was he piloting the Gant? Did he have his own ship? What about the fact that tass combined both psi and void energies together? Was that mandatory to kill the overmind or was that just overkill cause it sounds cool?

The Overmind itself states that the DT radiate energies similar to its own and that it is by this, they have caused it harm. There's nothing to say that the Overmind itself can only be harmed by twilight/combined energies. Besides, Tass himself only comments about channeling DT energy around the Gantrithors hull, which means that DT energy is more than enough on its own. Given the size of the Overmind, I supposed a ship maybe needed but it doesn't necessarily have to be the Gantrithor. Hmmm, when I think about it too much, there's some fridge logic as to why Tass even feels the need to sacrifice himself at all. It's probably got to do with gameplay-segregation though since whilst you've steamrolled the Overmind gameplay-wise, the speech that Tass gives about sustaining heavy damage and needing to sacrifice himself to end the Overmind is quite a bit at odds with that.

Also, why won't it work with just a void blade (or void powers in general)? Z's void blade seemed to be enough to end the neo-Overmind in BW. And yes, I know the irony in that Enumerate is supposed to ignore most of actual BW, making me refer to it as evidence kinda moot but what the hey!

Zoar

01-06-2018, 03:34 AM

I always interpreted the final cutscene in Starcraft as Tassadar converting his entire being and the Gatrithor into psi and void energy just to have enough to annihilate the Overmind.

Nissa

01-06-2018, 01:23 PM

I personally like the idea of Tassadar being the de-facto leader of the Protoss later on, perhaps slowly getting them out of their state of total failure.

As much as I like that in a way, Tassadar was a hot-head, and quite frankly is liable to get the Protoss in trouble. Remember his reaction to Duke? As a leader, Tassadar is to avoid getting his followers into unnecessary trouble. He could have responded a lot more politely to Duke and not get his guys in trouble. Likewise, his rude behavior towards Aldaris, while perhaps was deserved, gets in the way of making Aldaris and other Judicator understanding why Tass did what he did. In other words, Tass has a real problem dealing with people who don't agree with him.

KaiserStratosTygo

01-07-2018, 12:15 PM

As much as I like that in a way, Tassadar was a hot-head, and quite frankly is liable to get the Protoss in trouble. Remember his reaction to Duke? As a leader, Tassadar is to avoid getting his followers into unnecessary trouble. He could have responded a lot more politely to Duke and not get his guys in trouble. Likewise, his rude behavior towards Aldaris, while perhaps was deserved, gets in the way of making Aldaris and other Judicator understanding why Tass did what he did. In other words, Tass has a real problem dealing with people who don't agree with him.

Perhaps, but Zeratul is too naive and got the Protoss into just as much trouble, I feel that Tassadar's somewhat Haughty attitude while a detriment isn't nearly as problematic as Zeratul's naivete', perhaps some rude behavior is what the Protoss needed in Broodwar.

Nissa

01-07-2018, 12:54 PM

I think both sides are equally bad. Tass is a hot-head, and needs cooler minds (Fenix, Zeratul, Raynor) to pull him back down. Zeratul's problem (and recall that he wasn't the de-facto leader of the Protoss at any point) is that he's a huge introvert and used to leadership at a very small scale. Like, he could be a really great leader of a small band of highly trained DTs accomplishing a very small-scale, specific goal, like destroying a cerebrate or rescuing Tassadar. Once you broaden those goals and make Zeratul responsible for a large number of not highly trained civilians, he flounders. Zeratul is a detail-intense person, one who easily gets overwhelmed by decision-making, as indicated by his dependence on Tassadar in SC, and his dependence on Raszagal in BW (she was the one who told him to destroy the second Overmind, for example, and he went after Aldaris on her orders, despite him feeling weird about it).

Gradius

01-07-2018, 01:13 PM

Visions of Khas

01-07-2018, 02:18 PM

Tassadar isn’t a hot head. He knew Duke wouldn’t back down and that threatening him was his only option. Aldaris was being an imbecile that was actively helping doom the Protoss race and the patience Tassadar showed still bordered on saint-like.

It doesn't help that, in the deleted mission Biting The Bullet, Tassadar worked alongside and saved much of the Sons of Korhal. For Duke to then turn around and attack Tassadar would be especially infuriating and insulting. So I'd think Tassadar was within his arrogant Protoss rights to burn Duke. Besides, I don't think there was much left of Duke's forces on Char, after Kerrigan had her way with them.

Speaking of that mission, do we know if is it canon?

Gradius

01-07-2018, 05:36 PM

It doesn't help that, in the deleted mission Biting The Bullet, Tassadar worked alongside and saved much of the Sons of Korhal. For Duke to then turn around and attack Tassadar would be especially infuriating and insulting. So I'd think Tassadar was within his arrogant Protoss rights to burn Duke. Besides, I don't think there was much left of Duke's forces on Char, after Kerrigan had her way with them.

Speaking of that mission, do we know if is it canon?
I doubt it but I thought Libertys Crusade still novelized part of it? At the least, Tassadar showing Duke mercy earlier is pretty legit.

Turalyon

01-08-2018, 04:55 AM

Tassadar wouldn't make a better/worse leader than anyone else really. Afterall, he's prone to switching his mind when he feels moral pangs - like when he decides to engage the Zerg head on instead of continuing to burn worlds and when he decides to give himself up only after destroying most of the Conclave. He was lucky that the consequences of his actions weren't any more disastrous than they were.

sandwich_bird

01-08-2018, 11:22 AM

Also, why won't it work with just a void blade (or void powers in general)? Z's void blade seemed to be enough to end the neo-Overmind in BW. And yes, I know the irony in that Enumerate is supposed to ignore most of actual BW, making me refer to it as evidence kinda moot but what the hey!

Well it's just that the overmind is this giant mountain-sized structure so unless the blade is like a touch of death; he'd have to hack away for days. Even then, presumably that wouldn't be enough as it would keep growing faster than Z is capable of cutting. It just doesn't work in that universe. I mean, if it was sc2, Z would probably kamehameha a path to the overmind's "core" and then heroically plunge his blade in the heart or something but lets avoid these kind of scenarios :p

Nissa

01-08-2018, 12:40 PM

Tassadar isn’t a hot head. He knew Duke wouldn’t back down and that threatening him was his only option. Aldaris was being an imbecile that was actively helping doom the Protoss race and the patience Tassadar showed still bordered on saint-like.

Wouldn't back down? What are you talking about? All Duke said was that Tassadar was violating Terran airspace. If Duke had violent intentions in this situation, he wouldn't have even bothered talking to Tassadar. He would have simply fought back. By speaking to Tassadar, he was offering Tassadar a chance to back off. Not to mention that Tass' statement in that moment was far more threatening than the situation warranted. If he had answered peacefully, they could have resolved the situation.

Mislagnissa

01-08-2018, 12:58 PM

I will address the questions raised by this thread in chunks and introduce more elements from EN, the canon EU, and my personal thoughts.

The act of killing the Overmind

Enumerate explains Zeratul and three others killing the Overmind by traveling into its physical form and… releasing a psychic nuke, I guess? It makes about as much sense as crashing a carrier charged with void magic into it. I always interpreted attacking their physical form with void blades as being like hacking a computer network through an administrator computer, since by original manual logic the overmind/cerebrates are supposed to represent the gestalt consciousness of their minions.

I always imagined Zeratul’s fight with Zasz to be much more interesting that the crapfest we saw in the Queen of Blades novel. I imagined that Zeratul and some friends would follow the Zerg’s psychic signals to a central source and meeting Zasz. Zasz effortlessly slaughters them with his minions and psychic powers, but leaves Zeratul alive so he can mind rape him. Incidentally, this reveals some of Zasz’s secrets to Zeratul a la when Kylo Ren is interrogating Rey in The Force Awakens. Zeratul fights the pain and summons a psychic storm to annihilate everything nearby, and only survives at the last minute when a dark pylon recalls him. The psychic storm shreds Zasz’s personality by basically sending a gigantic wave of SHEER AGONY through the brain bug, secondary agents and every minion at once, sending the Garm into a permanent homicidal frenzy.

EDIT: This creates some irony as psychic storms were precisely the reason the nerazim were exiled.

In EN, a similar event happens when the Overmind is killed. This sends out a massive wave of agony which drives all the broods insane in a manner pretty much identical to feral zerg. The EN text distinguishes between insane and feral broods, but I consider this semantics. The level of damage scales with the distance from the Overmind, with the broods on Aiur going completely feral while those in the Koprulu sector remain relatively stable except for deciding to fight for the position of new Overmind.

Another element which comes into play is that feral/insane broods may eventually regain a modicum of sanity. If the brood has an existing brain bug, mega-mind or group of psi-colonies, this process occurs much faster. Without the unifying influence of the Overmind they are prone to evolving in bizarre directions (another one of the many, many possible subplots presented in EN's full 150 page treatment).

Zerg immortality and characters
SC2 has Kerry self-resurrecting in defiance of previously established lore, so I really have no problem making all Zerg immortal by downloading their shared consciousness into new bodies. If a brain bug is killed without breaking the hive mind, they will eventually just spawn a new one since the hive mind is their real consciousness. In Retribution, the brood is vulnerable in the interim, which I prefer over instant replacement due to the better story opportunities.

I have no problem having simple queens and overlords display the same level of intelligence according to Zerg commanders in SC2. The original manual states the gargantis proximae were smart enough to use language, and after eating the xel'naga the overmind increased the intelligence of overlords and queens even further. It is easier to insert new Zerg characters this way without giving them undue influence on the army. Using Leovaunt's RPG as a guideline: overlords, queens and infestors are command strains (secondary agents in manual parlance).

According to the Stukov missions, a single brood could have multiple cerebrates, so I am stealing that. It is easy enough to say that broods have senior and junior cerebrates. While technically equivalent in the hierarchy, they show deference.

Protoss leadership

We could argue about Tassadar's leadership skills forever. What is true is that he is part of a younger, open-minded generation and that he is heralded as the twilight messiah by the nerazim. Like any real person, he is flawed. All this could be explored in a campaign or series of campaigns.

Raszagal (who is basically the elected president of the Nerazim republic or whatever their highest level of government is, I imagine them as being loosely allied democratic republics) is going senile, which could be explored in a detailed fashion similar to the character Yu from Stargate SG-1.

Fenix, unfortunately, might die assisting in the evacuation of Aiur since Raynor was not present to help him. However, this could be avoided with different writing or something. Something something Antioch Chronicles.

The tal'darim, who I interpret as being a tribe of the Nerazim who use drugs rather than circumcision (since the manual states the First Age Protoss had "meta-neural study" that let them break the Proto-Khala in the first place), could also play a role. Where the rest of the Nerazim simply want to live in peace without losing their cultural distinctions (since the Khala seemingly causes mob mentality a la tumblr), the Tal'darim miss the glory days of the Aeon of Strife when they went around looting and murdering and generally ruling like petty tyrants. Ulrezaj is basically their messiah and he's a fanatic who wants to exterminate the Aiur Protoss/Firstborn/Khalai/Khalanim/Khalaites/whatever.

Protoss/Terran relations
The Terrans almost certainly hold a grudge against the Firstborn for glassing inhabited planets. Humans are emotional and won't care that there were justifiable reasons. All they'll see are bloodthirsty psychos like Syndrea and arrogant jerks like Aldaris. They could probably make common cause with the templar and nerazim who fought back against the Judicators during the Zerg invasion of Koprulu. Ulrezaj would almost certainly use this to get Terrans to ally with him.

While large-scale alliances or conflicts are unlikely to occur until the conclusion of the brood wars due to Koprulu being on the frontier of Protoss space, small scale alliances like Andraxxus teaming up with Jack Frost, Ulrezaj presumably financing Alan Schezar, or shadow hunters joining the Kimeran pirates are likely to occur.

Protoss Empires
The Protoss had an empire during the First Age and Aeon of Strife even in canon, e.g. planet Gyras (http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Gyras). EN takes more of an interest in these worlds by making them host to ancient ruins and having the Zerg invasion target the whole of Protoss space, including both Khala worlds and the Nerazim's nomadic waypoints.

Aiur serves as the center of the Zerg assimilation effort because the Zerg are religious in a sense, though they glorify themselves rather than any imagined deity. The Overmind implants a proxy on the surface to oversee the assault on the Psi Matrix.

Khala worlds are invaded to both occupy the templar and harvest khaydarin crystals for electronic warfare.

Nerazim way points are invaded to keep their void magic from interfering. Nerazim are nomadic, and like real nomads they typically migrate in predictable loops that follow the flora and fauna they subsist on. For those who do not understand the nomadic lifestyle, these way points are called home worlds. Nerazim are also religious and have holy places, such as shrine world Shakuras. (I am ignoring the retcons about Protoss being photosynthetic; the original manual states they were hunters who evolved telepathy to better hunt.)

Archaeology
EN makes archaeology, a la Retribution, a major plot point. While there are some xel'naga ruins, the ruins of the first Protoss empire hold much more importance. The Aeon of Strife reduced the Protoss to a shadow of their former glory, and the Zerg are deeply afraid of the modern Protoss, much less the ancient Protoss. So the Zerg send broods to hunt down relics and keep them out of the hands of their enemies.

This would fix a number of plot holes from SC2. The Purifiers do not make sense, since the Judicators would probably have them exterminated rather than hidden away. The motherships and colossi hidden around make no sense since they would most likely be employed during the Zerg's invasion of the Khala worlds. I would rationalize these as being relics of the First Age, since in SC1 manual canon the Protoss only made real progress during the First Age and the Second Age was mostly reverse engineering this stuff and reclaiming the worlds and colonies they had lost.

Another thing I would change is the temple on Shakuras. I dislike the deus ex machina attitude taken toward xel'naga relics in the Metzen and post-Metzen era of writing, so I would just make it a direct copy of the superweapon on Dakara (http://stargate.wikia.com/wiki/Dakara_superweapon) in Stargate SG-1. The fluff explanation is that it is a terraforming device built by the Protoss of the first age, and one of the functions it uses to facilitate this is the annihilation of specified biochemistries. The Protoss and Zerg fight over it, since either could use it to destroy the other without killing themselves in the process. It cannot turn zerg into humans, steal "life force" (whatever that is), resurrect the dead, make coffee or whatever else deus ex machinas are expected to do.

Enslavers
Alan Schezar, Ulrezaj and the new Umojans make enslavement of Zerg broods a major plot point. I do not think I need to elaborate more on this.

EN additionally mentions subplots where khaydarin crystals and argus crystals (the nerazim substitute for khaydarin) are used in experiments to enslave Zerg. This could be explored in a fair amount of detail, a la Enslavers and Gradius' Subjection.

The "fragile alliance" seen in Retribution would make more sense as purifiers enslaved by Zerg (which is a really interesting concept I think).

There's an Enslavers Redux custom campaign for SC2 which adapts the original Enslavers and the Dark Templar Saga books into a single narrative. It would need rewriting to fit into the EN chronology, namely by removing Duran, Amon and Kerry, but this should be fairly easy given the lack of voice acting.

The Fist of Redemption
The Fist of Redemption is a cult of Zerg worshipers that show up in Insurrection, which are similar to the plot of the old custom campaign Shifters. I really think it makes sense that such beliefs would spread throughout Koprulu during the Great War and cause all sorts of problems.

The Terran characters

With Kerry not present on Char calling Arcturus and Raynor, Raynor stays in the Koprulu sector and leads rebellions as he does in Wings of Liberty. You could pretty much recycle all the side missions from WoL and make a coherent plot for EN.

Edmund Duke never visits Char and never gets killed by Kerry. He could probably play a bigger role in the story, maybe have campaigns just about him or his subordinates.

According to the EU Raynor had a son named John and a wife named Lydia. John apparently died in a shuttle accident, but this is implied to have been faked so he was inducted into the Ghost Program. Lydia died of grief, which leaves room for Ariel Hanson to step in. Since the Ghost Academy was on Tarsonis when it fell to the Zerg, little Johnny was probably infested and could reappear in the future if desired.

Time periods
EN has a messier chronology than canon's weirdly neat "phases", since it takes place across many regions of space and doesn't have any periods of time where nothing of significance happens. The Koprulu sector, and eventually Protoss space as a whole, enters a constant state of war. When empires are not fighting, they are preparing new weapons.

EN doesn't respect the official dates at all or include any specific measurement of time. That said, the official dates are often hilarious short or unrealistic for what is supposed to be a galactic war with unimaginably huge logistics.

Terrans first discovered the Zerg in 2487. The major governments immediately started experimenting on them. The Confederacy saw a potential weapon, while the Umojans saw an invading alien force. The Confederacy laced water supplies on frontier worlds with "cholera" to deflect attention; while supposedly intended to depopulate the frontier worlds (which would foolishly increase attention), this most likely resulted in a massive humanitarian crisis and civil strife due to the influx of refugees. This makes the sector ripe for infestation.

While the cover ups are happening, the KMC is dealing with the Zerg, since many of the colonies being invaded are mining colonies. Contrary to canon, in EN this does not go very well for them. Too late do the Terrans learn that conventional tactics do not work and break out the fleets and nukes.

The Confederacy's use of psi-emitters lights the power keg by attracting the Zerg fleets. While the Confederacy assumed the psi-emitters attracted Zerg by signals mimicking their own telepathy (mentioned in Liberty's Crusade), the truth was they were just ringing giant dinner bells. The Zerg came searching for psychics and follow the signals to find them.

The Great War starts, the Protoss appear and start glassing worlds, civil strife tears the Terrans apart, and all kinds of crazy, story-worthy stuff happens. Dark templar follow the Zerg probes and start testing themselves against small groups of zerg or joining Terran pirate gangs, Jack Frost fights the Fist of Judgment on Brontes IV, judicator Syndrea starts a civil war against executor Andraxxus, Arcturus takes advantage of the strife to seize power, Alan Schezar meets up with Ulrezaj and tries to capture and enslave a lone cerebrate, etc.

Then after the Zerg get what they want, most of the broods leave to experiment on various hive worlds including but not limited to Char. This period is not really explored in detail, but it ends when the dark templar arrive on the hive worlds and start mucking things up. Using the intel leaked by Zeratul and possibly other templar, the Zerg launch an invasion of the Protoss empire, as I mentioned previously.

What is never really explained, in either canon or EN, is why the Koprulu Expeditionary Force is recalled after the fall of Tarsonis nor why some of them remain in Koprulu for an extended period. I can understand the scandal and embarrassment caused by Tassadar's disobedience, Syndrea's insurrection, Andraxxus' alliance with humans, and losing to the Zerg due to incompetence (as conventional tactics emphatically do not work against them), but the Zerg still need to be dealt with. What are the Judicators planning to do? Could we please get a narrative from their perspective that doesn't portray them as crazy fanatics?

At the same time, the Terrans united under the Dominion are trying to deal with the remaining Zerg. It is standard practice for the Zerg to exterminate species they have no use for, like the rest of the humans. However, they also deal with continuing civil strife on the part of the rebels (who are secretly funded by the Umojans).

After the Overmind's death, the brain bugs, psi-colonies and mega-minds duke it out for control. At the same time the Terrans and Protoss try to deal with the Zerg by enslaving and/or exterminating them, while at the same time dealing with their own civil wars. Then the Overmind is resurrected and the EN timeline just stops.

Conspiracies
There's a Starcraft: Reborn mod which incorporates some elements of the EU into the SC1 narrative (along with the nonsense from the retcons). What I found interesting what the first original cutscene which depicts the Gantrithor entering orbit of Chau Sara only for three battlecruisers to appear and open fire without provocation, before calling in the fleet to glass the planet. Canon is contradictory with regard to the state of Chau Sara at the time, with difference sources claiming it was overrun by Zerg, the Terrans were oblivious, the Terrans were fighting back, or some combination thereof.

Given that the Confederacy had their whole conspiracy involving "cholera" and psi-emitters that may have started the Great War in the first place, the battlecruisers make a fair amount of sense. Alternately, they were trying to deal with their problem (since by this time the Terrans had realized conventional tactics do not work)

According to Liberty's Crusade the Confederacy learned the name of the Zerg from telepathic experiments and knew the name of the Protoss but did not reveal how they knew, though this is implied to have been because Tassadar hailed the Terrans to explain his actions but this was covered up by the Confederacy.

According to the short story Revelations Tassadar was leading rescue teams on the surface of Mar Sara in the days before it was glassed, which is referenced nowhere else in the games or the EU (though it is consistent with the cut missions where he appears).

Conclusion
There's a huge amount more, but that's all I have the strength for right now.

Sandwich mentioned in another thread that EN feels too restricting. I do not really understand that, considering all the choice that is presented above. Sure it is infeasible to keep track of every single possible plot point, but most plot points are only relevant to campaign set in specific times and places. I myself pick and choose while remaining consistent with the overall timeline, and even ignore minor things I disagree with (like EN's bizarre choice to remove queens from the hierarchy, or the unmemorable names for Zerg). Could you elaborate?

sandwich_bird

01-08-2018, 02:11 PM

I always imagined Zeratul’s fight with Zasz to be much more interesting that the crapfest we saw in the Queen of Blades novel. I imagined that Zeratul and some friends would follow the Zerg’s psychic signals to a central source and meeting Zasz. Zasz effortlessly slaughters them with his minions and psychic powers, but leaves Zeratul alive so he can mind rape him. Incidentally, this reveals some of Zasz’s secrets to Zeratul a la when Kylo Ren is interrogating Rey in The Force Awakens. Zeratul fights the pain and summons a psychic storm to annihilate everything nearby, and only survives at the last minute when a dark pylon recalls him. The psychic storm shreds Zasz’s personality by basically sending a gigantic wave of SHEER AGONY through the brain bug, secondary agents and every minion at once, sending the Garm into a permanent homicidal frenzy.

That is pretty good stuff actually.

Sandwich mentioned in another thread that EN feels too restricting. I do not really understand that, considering all the choice that is presented above. Sure it is infeasible to keep track of every single possible plot point, but most plot points are only relevant to campaign set in specific times and places. I myself pick and choose while remaining consistent with the overall timeline, and even ignore minor things I disagree with (like EN's bizarre choice to remove queens from the hierarchy, or the unmemorable names for Zerg). Could you elaborate?

A pre-made timeline is fundamentally restrictive. I'm stuck making a story that is already told on a macro level and that takes away a lot of the fun out of it. I'm more willing if I'm already invested in the story but so far that's not the case since, like we pointed out in that other thread, enumerate hasn't been sold yet.

On top of that, there are restrictions down to the unit level. Enumerate introduce a whole bunch of units, upgrades and etc which affects the gameplay significantly. I could just ignore them of course but then what's the point of following a guide if I'm just gonna do my own thing anyways?

Gradius

01-08-2018, 02:32 PM

Wouldn't back down? What are you talking about? All Duke said was that Tassadar was violating Terran airspace. If Duke had violent intentions in this situation, he wouldn't have even bothered talking to Tassadar. He would have simply fought back. By speaking to Tassadar, he was offering Tassadar a chance to back off. Not to mention that Tass' statement in that moment was far more threatening than the situation warranted. If he had answered peacefully, they could have resolved the situation.
Yeah I really see Duke swallowing his pride and coming to a mutually beneficial solution lmao.

Resolving the situation includes Tassadar leaving immediately and that’s just not an option.

Mislagnissa

01-08-2018, 04:01 PM

That is pretty good stuff actually.I used a mind over matter explanation for why the Zerg did not always use brood mothers. Zerg use a parallel processing network to boost their signal strength, so a cerebrate can essentially channel the collective mental energy of its brood to achieve amazing feats. A zealot may be god-like compared to individual Zerg, but a brood is god-like compared to individual zealots.

The reason why humans are so valuable is because they have more combat power per pound. While their processing power is equivalent to that of Zerg (so they are redundant as commanders, as three or so human brains are equivalent to an overlord), a psychic human brain the size of a cerebrate can create psychic storms (among other possible applications). Just imagine what a protoss brain of that size could accomplish!

A pre-made timeline is fundamentally restrictive. I'm stuck making a story that is already told on a macro level and that takes away a lot of the fun out of it. I'm more willing if I'm already invested in the story but so far that's not the case since, like we pointed out in that other thread, enumerate hasn't been sold yet. You could say the same about the canon timeline, or even Warhammer 40k (which has thousands of books written for it). I cannot imagine many stories that could not be easily fit into EN chronology. In fact, many custom campaigns strike me as more sensible within EN, like the Flame Knives and Annihilation.

Look at Insurrection and Retribution. They have their own stories that take place within canon, albeit fast and loose. I rarely see custom campaigns that are comparable, in the sense that most custom campaigns involve characters from SC1 in some way and needlessly restrict themselves.

EN was written specifically to give map makers freedom to tell diverse stories while still able to pretend they take place in the same universe. The events of the timeline are intended to be examples and plot hooks, not limitations. That's why the scale has been amped up to hundreds of planets.

Could you give me examples of campaigns which would be unfairly restricted by the EN chronology compared to canon? The broad strokes of EN are, oddly enough, almost identical to canon. The Overmind being resurrected is the same as Amon being resurrected! I even found incorporating taldarim and purifiers even easier than canon!

The problem for me is figuring out where to stop, not how restrictive anything is.

On top of that, there are restrictions down to the unit level. Enumerate introduce a whole bunch of units, upgrades and etc which affects the gameplay significantly. I could just ignore them of course but then what's the point of following a guide if I'm just gonna do my own thing anyways?I do not see a problem here. If you want to make different tech trees to give different factions their own flair then that's great, but if that's not a selling point of your campaign then why worry?

Mislagnissa

01-08-2018, 05:57 PM

Interesting. If it every turns into a story, I'll read it, but for the moment it's a bit too generic to critique.

I'm more willing if I'm already invested in the story but so far that's not the case since, like we pointed out in that other thread, enumerate hasn't been sold yet.
(Sorry if I come as a rude or something, I am currently frazzled after the workday.)

A story? This is a not a story, this is a massive shared universe deal involving hundreds and hundreds of planets, many billions of Terrans and Protoss, and quite literally countless numbers of Zerg. There is material here enough for many hundreds of campaigns. You may have been spoiled by the "small world syndrome" in canon, but EN is a full-scale galactic war (technically 1/8 of the galaxy but that's still 25-50 billion stars and trillions of planets involved). If you are not already invested there is nothing I can do to convince you to become invested. As a single person I cannot possibly hope to do it justice within my lifespan: any single story I write would be nothing but a tiny microcosm that could not include any of the thousands upon thousands of subplots involved.

I already have my hands full with two custom campaigns, only one of which has been drafted and is being produced while the other still needs a script. The one which is currently being produced takes place on Mar Sara in the weeks before purification so the changes in the EN chronology don't even come into play yet, while the other is about a single Dominion/Umojan Zerg experiment (out of the hundreds that possibly exist). If you want a story to critique or invest in, then you will have to write dozens of them by yourself. I simply cannot map that fast, especially given that these are my first maps.

Have a nice day! :)

Turalyon

01-09-2018, 03:17 AM

Well it's just that the overmind is this giant mountain-sized structure so unless the blade is like a touch of death; he'd have to hack away for days. Even then, presumably that wouldn't be enough as it would keep growing faster than Z is capable of cutting. It just doesn't work in that universe.

...And yet this is what happens in BW...

sandwich_bird

01-10-2018, 11:05 AM

...And yet this is what happens in BW...

I don't like it either :p To be fair, it was a different situation. It was a young overmind so not fully grown; probably smaller. Also it happens in game which is not always the definitive canon as it's variable in its execution and is visually restrictive.

If you are not already invested there is nothing I can do to convince you to become invested.

Pretty much. But I am looking forward to your campaigns though.

Turalyon

01-11-2018, 03:33 AM

Sorry Bird, I just couldn't resist the piss-take opportunities... :D

To be fair, it was a different situation. It was a young overmind so not fully grown; probably smaller.

A giant mountain-sized structure is not ok, but a half/quarter giant mountain sized structure is. Makes perfect sense! ;):p

Also it happens in game which is not always the definitive canon as it's variable in its execution and is visually restrictive.

Huh, so we're supposed to see Zeratul's game unit icon in the mission as a spaceship then? Gotcha! ;):p

sandwich_bird

01-11-2018, 11:34 AM

Huh, so we're supposed to see Zeratul's game unit icon in the mission as a spaceship then? Gotcha! ;):p

You didn't see it but he jumped in a void ray off screen >.>

Gradius

01-11-2018, 01:00 PM

Didn’t a whole crap load of dark Templar attack the Overmind before Zeratul delivered the finishing blow?

Nissa

01-11-2018, 01:04 PM

Yeah I really see Duke swallowing his pride and coming to a mutually beneficial solution lmao.

Resolving the situation includes Tassadar leaving immediately and that’s just not an option.

It's not an option because Tassadar's a hothead. Had Tass been logical, he could have backed off. By speaking to him, Duke was warning him to back off. Tassadar didn't back off, and thus caused retaliation.

(Sorry if I come as a rude or something, I am currently frazzled after the workday.)

A story? This is a not a story, this is a massive shared universe deal involving hundreds and hundreds of planets, many billions of Terrans and Protoss, and quite literally countless numbers of Zerg. There is material here enough for many hundreds of campaigns.

I understand that. It's pretty obvious. What I was saying is that I don't care about that universe, and that if I read a story from that universe, I might care. After all, you can do anything with a framework, and where the real good or bad comes in is with a story.

The Purifiers do not make sense, since the Judicators would probably have them exterminated rather than hidden away.

Buh? Why? They're history! Not to mention, obviously loyal to the Conclave.

If you want to criticize purifiers in a logical sense, you should argue that they be Dark Templar in origin. After all, if the Aiur Protoss are the ones with the khaydarin crystals, then they should be the ones recording history on crystals, while the Dark Templar, who don't have access to them, should have purifiers as a way of compensating for their loss.

Gradius

01-11-2018, 01:10 PM

It's not an option because Tassadar's a hothead. Had Tass been logical, he could have backed off. By speaking to him, Duke was warning him to back off. Tassadar didn't back off, and thus caused retaliation.
And not rescue Zeratul to help save Aiur? Ok

Nissa

01-11-2018, 01:13 PM

And not rescue Zeratul to help save Aiur? Ok

Holy crap, Gradius. He didn't have to attack Duke to rescue Zeratul. Duke was only on a certain segment of the map. Assuming it were possible with Starcraft's game structure, Tassadar should have offered either temporary alliance, or an "I won't shoot you if you don't shoot me while we rescue our guys" sort of deal.

Gradius

01-11-2018, 01:44 PM

The layout of the map? That’s not an argument, the map doesn’t mean anything especially when the map changes each time we go back to the same location in a later mission.

Visions of Khas

01-11-2018, 02:12 PM

Holy crap, Gradius. He didn't have to attack Duke to rescue Zeratul. Duke was only on a certain segment of the map. Assuming it were possible with Starcraft's game structure, Tassadar should have offered either temporary alliance, or an "I won't shoot you if you don't shoot me while we rescue our guys" sort of deal.

Duke kicks off contact with Tassadar's fleet with a threat, to which Tassadar responds in kind. Due to the set up of the map, however, you are not forced to actually combat his Alpha squadron, which is already in obvious shambles; that is the player's discretion.

Turalyon

01-12-2018, 02:53 AM

Um, is Tass not a hothead if he happens to never encount Duke in that mission? That actually happened the first time I played it.

Mislagnissa

01-12-2018, 01:01 PM

I don't know if I said this before, but I had some ideas for the teleportation retcon (http://sclegacy.com/index.php/editorials/12-speculation/296-the-animation-of-death) from SC2.

I don't believe the death animation should be a teleport. Recall already had its own animation, so it is a visual inconsistency. I have no problem with protoss using recall to withdraw forces (some may contest that as cowardly, but there's a point at which courage becomes stupidity), but they should actually use the recall ability and animation. The teleport crystal mentioned in the Field Manual stays, but now it acts as a beacon for recall rather than a teleporter itself (which explains why not every warrior is teleporting whenever convenient).

As for the point at which protoss become dragoons, and the whole angst about a warrior's death versus a cowardly retreat... I always thought it was kind of strange how Protoss medical tech is apparently advanced enough to place people in armored sarcophagi and augment limbs but not advanced enough to replace limbs. Going by a vague statement in the original manual that dragoons contain the souls of fallen warriors, I would posit that protoss psychic powers include their consciousness surviving for a certain time after their bodily death. Before bodily death the warrior could be saved, but after they would need to be placed in a dragoon. In this case, the function of a dragoon changes from a life support system to a form of embalming and cryogenics that keeps the body from deteriorating so as to preserve the mind. (This would also explain how, pre-retcon, a protoss could be seen to die by exploding and yet reappear as a dragoon in a latter mission. I believe that Protoss leave corpses in various states of damage due to their exploding, but we don't see the corpses because all corpse sprites fade.)

Didn’t a whole crap load of dark Templar attack the Overmind before Zeratul delivered the finishing blow?It is still kind of silly to think that hacking at a mountain of regenerating flesh would have an effect and ignores the fact that dark templar can summon psychic storms, but that's game mechanics for you.

To continue down the line of logic I mentioned before where the Overmind structure is an avatar of the Zerg rather than a leader...

I imagine the Zerg hierarchy as being bottom-up or ascending rather than top-down or descending. The Zerg are not actually ruled by giant brain-like creatures, but merely gain a boost in efficiency from their presence. Humans do not consciously think about breathing or walking around, we just do it automatically; the Zerg take this logic to its greatest extreme networking countless minds that way. Killing these organisms does not cause an irrevocable change in how the Zerg operate. Attacking the hive mind itself does not destroy the genes responsible for generating it. Like the Flood from Halo or the Necromorphs from Dead Space, the Zerg's natural instincts compel them to congregate and form higher intelligence.

Yeah, assaulting the hive mind with void magic is analogous to lobotomy or psychotropic drug overdose. "Killing" cerebrates with void magic causes their brood to go feral. "Killing" the Overmind causes the broods to go feral, cerebrate and all. Assuming the initial wave of psychotic behavior and lack of coordination doesn't destroy the brood beyond all hope of recovery, natural selection will kick in and ensure the feral brood will survive and prosper. Eventually the damage to the hive mind will regenerate and the brood will spontaneously produce a new cerebrate or two. The broods will fight other broods for domination, ultimately resurrecting the Overmind.

It is difficult for humans to comprehend the existence of intelligence like that, leading to the typical but erroneous assumption that the cerebrates and Overmind are slave masters. This makes about as much sense as saying that you need to be decapitated to release your extremities from slavery.

If you want to criticize purifiers in a logical sense, you should argue that they be Dark Templar in origin. After all, if the Aiur Protoss are the ones with the khaydarin crystals, then they should be the ones recording history on crystals, while the Dark Templar, who don't have access to them, should have purifiers as a way of compensating for their loss.The Judicators were quite happy to exterminate the Nerazim for refusing to conform and the Terrans for being in the way of some harmless space bugs, so why would they entomb the Purifiers for demanding some thanks once in a while?

SC2 retconned the Protoss so that all their technological progress was moved from before the Aeon of Strife to after it. In the process, the protoss are changed from a young race reverse-engineering the accomplishments of their ancestors to generic space elves who are dying out because something something Tolkien. Ironically, the backstory addition somewhere that Raszagal is old enough to remember the end of the Aeon of Strife makes more sense with the previous version of the lore. Since EN reverts to the old lore, this means that things like Motherships, Colossi and Purifiers become pre-Strife tech by default.

In the BW manual and Retribution there are mentions of "argus" stone or crystal used by the Nerazim or Xel'naga; SC2 has a vague "blood shard" used by tal'darim. EN takes that concept and expands it into an artificial khydarin substitute created by the Nerazim because it works better with their powers than khydarin does. I myself did the same thing for the Zerg, explaining what that giant purple crystal in the briefing room is. If khydarin is the basis of protoss tech in a similar fashion to how silicon and stuff is the basis of human tech, there's no reason to believe that it would not have variants and substitutes like real electronics does (e.g. argus, blood shard, zerg crystal, etc). For all we know raw khydarin needs to be refined somehow before it can be used for computing or power conduction.

Nissa

01-13-2018, 01:56 PM

Duke kicks off contact with Tassadar's fleet with a threat, to which Tassadar responds in kind. Due to the set up of the map, however, you are not forced to actually combat his Alpha squadron, which is already in obvious shambles; that is the player's discretion.

Bear in mind that I'm talking about in-world considerations, not necessarily as Starcraft the game. Yeah, in game you're supposed to go over there so that you can expand your base, but in a world where an alien force goes into enemy territory, negotiation is an option. Particularly when Duke goes "you're in our airspace, what's wrong with you?" Despite his words, Duke's tone and the fact that he's even talking to Tassadar means that Tass could have ended the situation more peaceably. Again, if this were a real-world situation, not a game.

Gradius

01-13-2018, 02:39 PM

But you brought up the map layout as an excuse to prove he even has the option of not attacking.

Visions of Khas

01-13-2018, 07:49 PM

But you brought up the map layout as an excuse to prove he even has the option of not attacking.

On the one hand, Duke is totally throwing his weight around. "You are in violation of terran airspace." Really? I'm sorry, but you and the sad remnants of your raggedy-ass detachment are stuck on the most heavily zerg-infested world in all of space. With all due respect, even the toxic air wants you dead. You don't HAVE airspace.

Because it was a bluff.

On the other hand, the map-makers insisted on putting said tattered terran team up in the top-right corner (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cU4ShqmhpkI) well away from both the player's base as well as the primary zerg hive cluster. Like, way up there. As in, you gotta squint at the minimap to make them out.

Turalyon

01-13-2018, 11:51 PM

With all due respect, even the toxic air wants you dead.

[Sidetrack] Toxic you say? Raynor and friends seem to be able to walk around on its surface with their visors open and a naked and deinfested Kerrigan seemed to do quite ok as well.

On the other hand, the map-makers insisted on putting said tattered terran team up in the top-right corner (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cU4ShqmhpkI) well away from both the player's base as well as the primary zerg hive cluster. Like, way up there. As in, you gotta squint at the minimap to make them out.

I think the conversation from Duke is only triggered if you actually destroy a Terran building (like a missile turret). This would be considered an unprovoked attack and Duke wouldn't have responded with his "violation of Terran airspace" speech otherwise. So maybe Nissa does have something to Tass being a bit of a hot-head afterall (not for me, though, because I never touched the Terrans in my first play through).

Visions of Khas

01-14-2018, 06:50 AM

[Sidetrack] Toxic you say? Raynor and friends seem to be able to walk around on its surface with their visors open and a naked and deinfested Kerrigan seemed to do quite ok as well.

I'm just imagining how much carbon and sulfur is constantly being thrown into the air by the ongoing activity of the planet.

I think the conversation from Duke is only triggered if you actually destroy a Terran building (like a missile turret).
The video I linked above showed the player waltzing into terran airspace without attacking anything, which triggered Duke's response.

KaiserStratosTygo

01-14-2018, 12:38 PM

"Another thing I would change is the temple on Shakuras. I dislike the deus ex machina attitude taken toward xel'naga relics in the Metzen and post-Metzen era of writing, so I would just make it a direct copy of the superweapon on Dakara in Stargate SG-1. The fluff explanation is that it is a terraforming device built by the Protoss of the first age, and one of the functions it uses to facilitate this is the annihilation of specified biochemistries. The Protoss and Zerg fight over it, since either could use it to destroy the other without killing themselves in the process. It cannot turn zerg into humans, steal "life force" (whatever that is), resurrect the dead, make coffee or whatever else deus ex machinas are expected to do."

Damn, I don't like this story anymore, I want my Xel'Naga temple to make me a cappuccino.

Nissa

01-14-2018, 02:04 PM

The video I linked above showed the player waltzing into terran airspace without attacking anything, which triggered Duke's response.

If you saw a potential enemy flying into your airspace, how would you react? It was logical for Duke to speak out about it, and it revealed a lot about him that he was remaining calm even when Tassadar was ranting violently at him, despite the fact that Duke had done nothing to him at that point.

Gradius

01-14-2018, 05:12 PM

Duke was stopping Tassadar from completing his mission.

”If you persist in halting our course”

Turalyon

01-15-2018, 01:17 AM

The video I linked above showed the player waltzing into terran airspace without attacking anything, which triggered Duke's response.

Well then, it's justified for Duke to be alarmed to see Protoss forces heading their way. In the past, the Protoss haven't said a word and begun proceeding to burn their words, so it's something for Duke to even bother trying to threaten them and not just straight up try to shoot them down!

Tass, not having time for this nonsense (Z's in trouble!!), responds in kind since he's already tried protecting the ungrateful humans at great cost to himself and is only doing so to ultimately protect his own kind. Since Duke is potentially preventing him from saving his own people and the only ones who can harm the Zerg in any significant way, of course he's gonna get a bit twitchy.

Nissa

01-15-2018, 02:29 PM

Turalyon

01-16-2018, 01:35 AM

But Duke isn't in his way.

I know, that's why I threw out the question of whether Tass can really be considered really a hot-head if he never encountered or entered Duke's perceived "Terran space". Maybe Tass just was intending to pass on through and let the Terrans be, but then Duke piped up with a threat. And just like Duke eventually ending up assuming Tass's reply was "a hostile response", Tass probably thought the same of Dukes warning initially. Probably just a common misunderstanding of intent on both sides.

Gradius

01-16-2018, 08:54 AM

But Duke isn't in his way. In fact, given that there are human soldiers in the facility where Zeratul is, then possibly Duke is either trying to save them (in which cooperation is possible) or trying to flee what he thinks is an unwinnable situation (in which he is more interested in getting away than bothering with Tass).
If any of those were the case he wouldn’t be issuing ultimatums or sending a fleet to attack them. Tassadar had more information than the player about what was happening and reacted accordingly. Duke is also an a-hole so I’m inclined to believe Tassadar.

Mislagnissa

01-16-2018, 09:51 AM

The EN chronology does not include the circumstances that lead to Duke and Raynor coming into contact with Tassadar. So they end up staying in the core worlds and continue doing what they were planning to. In Duke's case that means fighting the Zerg left behind to exterminate humanity. In Raynor's case that means rebelling against Arcturus' dictatorship.

We could also bring in characters from other campaigns and stories. Most of the EU stories can be placed within the EN chronology with a minimum of changes.

For example, Executor Andraxxus and Jack Frost from Insurrection. The Brontes system was lost to the Zerg, but there is no reason that Andraxxus could not have used teleportation to evacuate the 7th Fleet and the New Dresdin Outlaws when it became clear they could not stop the Zerg and fake their deaths in battle using hallucinations to buy time. There is Syndrea's fate to consider, since her last known whereabouts were as a Zerg prisoner.

If we consider custom campaigns, more options open. For example, the "Corrupted Templar" from the Proditor campaign are still running around, although they are rumored to have joined Ulrezaj's xava'kai/taldarim. The custom campaign Enslavers Redux purports to continue the adventures of the Mar Sara Colonial Magistrate, who was captured by the Dominion and forced into service; he comes into conflict with Ulrezaj and Schezar.

EDIT: Another thing which I forgot to bring up was that the protoss had ethnic skin tones in SC1, as stated in the manual (emphasis mine).

Although the Khala has called upon the Protoss to forsake their ancient Tribal society and embrace the new castes of Judicator, Templar and Khalai, many still cling to the fleeting customs and trappings of the old ways. The various Tribes remain intact only to remind the Protoss of the follies of their past. With the ascension of the Judicator as the ruling caste above all Protoss, the old dilemma of Tribal separatism no longer threatens the greater society. The most distinguishable aspect of the Tribes is that each sect of Protoss has its own unique skin shades ranging from mottled grey to a dark, aphotic blue.

Canonically, you can tell what tribe a Protoss is from by their skin color. SC2 threw this away, but we can easily ignore that and bring back protoss of color. For simplicity's sake I will assume the "tribal color" applies to both the SC1 game unit color (http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Colors) and the ethnic skin color (as seen in the unit portrait). For example, the Akilae Templar have green skin as seen in the zealot, the Shelak Judicator have white skin as seen in the arbiter, and the Venatir Templar have brown skin as seen in the scout. (I suspect the original team was operating from this assumption.)

Nissa

01-16-2018, 06:07 PM

I know, that's why I threw out the question of whether Tass can really be considered really a hot-head if he never encountered or entered Duke's perceived "Terran space". Maybe Tass just was intending to pass on through and let the Terrans be, but then Duke piped up with a threat. And just like Duke eventually ending up assuming Tass's reply was "a hostile response", Tass probably thought the same of Dukes warning initially. Probably just a common misunderstanding of intent on both sides.

Tass wasn't a hothead because he approached Duke. He was a hothead because a completely rational response from Duke made him snap irrationally at someone he didn't need to get into a conflict with.

Turalyon

01-16-2018, 08:49 PM

Tass wasn't a hothead because he approached Duke. He was a hothead because a completely rational response from Duke made him snap irrationally at someone he didn't need to get into a conflict with.

Tassadar claims to "know" Duke well (probably from Raynor's experiences with him) and was just responding in kind. Duke, under a veneer of civility/"Southern sensibility", was really threatening to attack if they didn't leave whilst Tassadar, cutting the bullshit, responded with a threat in unveiled terms that he'd destroy them if Duke proceeded to halt them.

Mislagnissa

01-17-2018, 04:32 PM

So I found a number of custom campaigns that make more sense within EN than canon.

A relatively common conceit is a planet or fleet of independent protoss. Essentially Taldarim, of any iteration, before it became fashionable. Custom campaigns have added "isolated" Protoss planets or fleets like Ahman-ro, Artia, Idu'ran, Kharnikha, etc. These really do make more sense with the interstellar protoss empire.

Frontier Terran terran worlds or isolated independent governments are just as (or more) common.

Another plot common to SC1 maps are the cerebrates surviving indefinitely and either assisting or rebelling against QoB. Some have new cerebrates created willy nilly without the Overmind. A few have Zerg just showing up out of nowhere: the "Ignos" SC2 campaign (which takes place at an unspecified point when Nerazim are fighting alongside Firstborn) inexplicably has primal zerg on a random planet in protoss space.

I am compiling a list of existing custom campaigns that could easily fit into the EN chronology. Hopefully I will be finished within the near future.

Mislagnissa

01-19-2018, 02:58 PM

So another detail of EN is that it posits the Protoss fought Zerg even before the glassing of Chau Sara. Ground forces were deployed initially before it became apparent that conventional tactics were not particularly effective against Zerg swarming. This needs some elaboration.

In the SC beta, Executor Andinunn had been watching Terran activity on the edge of Protoss space for some time before the Great War. The Terrans had been listening in on his transmissions, and decoded a census by Judicator Nuun-Minn. (The beta also suggested that Terrans were looking to exploit the planets of their Protoss neighbors, but nothing came of this in canon.) At the time Zerg were present and being studied by Terrans, including telepathic interrogation (which was apparently painful) in Liberty's Crusade. So we have an opportunity for Andinunn to engage the Zerg before the Koprulu Expeditionary Force arrives.

There is also the concept of "mutates" in the EU, infested terrans who have undergone nanite treatments to restore their personality and sanity. Examples include Morrik, Sistask and possibly Stukov. Dr. Loew did something loosely similar to hydralisks in the Teacher short story. I think those concepts are interesting and could stand to appear in more stories.

Mislagnissa

01-22-2018, 11:12 AM

So let's talk a bit about the different factions of Protoss, because there are a lot even without trying to account for custom campaigns.

The Protoss Empire, or Khala, is the faction everyone is most familiar with. They represent the bulk of the population.
The Nerazim are a bunch of nomads who practice circumcision. They share the same proud warrior theme as the Empire, but they are more individualistic, more like humans in that respect. They are not really a faction so much as a confederation of tribes.
The Daelaam are the formal attempt by Tassadar to unite the Empire and the Nerazim tribes, with mixed success. While the Conclave spearheaded a civil war on Aiur during the Great War, the massive size of the Empire means that unofficial alliances probably existed ever since the Zerg invaded.
The Taldarim are not a faction at all, but a generic term for various extremist groups. These include the Xava'kai ("Fist of Ulrezaj," including both Nerazim and rogue Khala), the Taldarim under "Executor" Nyon, and the Slaynese. (What I found curious about the Slaynese is that all those we see in SC2 had white skin, like the Shelak judicator tribe. Their “chain of ascension” also feels like a perversion of the khala or “path of ascension.”)
The Purifiers are mysterious autonomous robots dating back to the First Age that were awakened by archaeologists sometime prior to or during the Great War. Their motives are mysterious and possibly divided between different factions, but it is known that they are connected to the Khala and are able to download the personalities of dead Protoss into robot bodies. (This is my personal interpretation to fit them into EN and give writers more choice in how to use them.)

Void magic
Something interesting I found in the EN document is that the author posits a different explanation for how the Nerazim first developed their powers. Rather than Adun teaching them to hide themselves while somehow preventing them from accessing the Khala, EN posits that some Protoss in the Khala were simply alienated from others. They severed their own nerve cords to silence the voices and then ran off from society. Eventually, they encountered the rogue tribes and joined them. When Adun arrived, he tried to teach them to harness their innate psychic powers. While the uncircumcised rogue tribes would just end up connecting to the khala (barring, IDK, taking sundrop?), the circumcised outcasts could not. They developed new powers that Adun would go on to study, ultimately resulting in the psychic storms that ravaged Aiur. The Nerazim would circumcise not only as an insult to the judicators, but as a way to harness the power discovered by the outcasts.

I like that explanation, since it makes more sense to me personally that connecting to the khala is instinctive and harnessing the void requires suppressing it with drugs (like sundrop), circumcision, or extreme asceticism (like whatever Tassadar did).

Mislagnissa

01-29-2018, 04:01 PM

I think I discussed this before but here is a quick refresher.

The manual introduced the Overmind as a gestalt consciousness of the Zerg. Cerebrates are a breed created to increase efficiency by managing broods. If killed, cerebrates may be resurrected or reincarnated unless they are killed by the nerazim's void magic. In SC2 Kerry is resurrected in the same way, so it may be assumed that all Zerg personalities may be so revived even without the Overmind. (It is not explained where they store their backups, but if this follows the same logic as the Overmind then these personalities are stored within the broods.)

The EN chronology follows this exactly, but it adds two additional rules: broods are only successfully managed by giant brain-like creatures (e.g. cerebrates, giga-brains, psi colonies), and the broods are instinctively driven to recreate the Overmind after its death by dominating their competition. Aside from psychic power levels, the biggest difference between the cerebrates and the assimilated terran brain monsters is that the latter lack the accumulated wisdom and knowledge of the former. Otherwise they are both Zerg monsters driven to consume and evolve.

Something I am going to borrow from the Flood and Necromorphs is to apply the logic behind the Overmind to the broods individually. The Zerg are organized into a hierarchy of hive minds that follow the same basic logic. The Overmind is the hive mind of the entire Zerg race, while each brood has its own hive mind which is broadcast by the cerebrates like radio towers.

Zerg have two layers of psychic communion, as originally stated in the manual. The first is a psychic link between the Overmind/cerebrates and all their minions (and possibly between minions?), whose purpose is not explained. The second is the active relaying of orders from the Overmind to the cerebrates, to the overlords/queens/infestors, to the minions. These are not interchangeable functions.

The Zerg have undergone refinement over the millennia, which includes the equivalent of lobotomizing non-essential higher brain functions that are normally invisible. Since the Zerg operate under a hive mind where brain function is shared, they do not need to be able to function outside of it. Zerg which are unable to connect to the hive mind (such as in captivity) will act strangely and without any self-awareness, regardless of whether their intelligence matches or surpasses that of a human being, since they have essentially lost key brain function: minions will become rabid berserkers, overlords will repetitively follow their last orders, queens will churn out minions that immediately turn feral, etc.

Normally this is not a problem since the Zerg will naturally commune with other nearby Zerg to make up for their individual lack of awareness. When a cerebrate is killed, their telepathy allows the brood to retain some degree of coordination (albeit vastly inferior) until the cerebrate is respawned. Void magic does not simply sever the brood from the cerebrate's control, but traumatizes the psyche of the Zerg that composed the brood so that they cannot simply restablish the hive mind as they do when cerebrates are killed without void magic.

EN makes a distinction between feral zerg (broods that have lost their cerebrates) and insane zerg (broods whose cerebrates have lost the overmind), but under the overmind=hivemind logic this distinction becomes mostly a matter of semantics. In the same way that the broods as a whole are driven to recreate the Overmind, broods which have lost their cerebrates and survived are driven to recreate it.

In Protoss space, where psi colonies and giga brains were deployed in large numbers, these creatures are driven to claim control over the feral broods formerly managed by cerebrates. Since this is a function they were never intended to fulfill, they are not able to easily access the memories or personality fragments of dead cerebrates that may be preserved in the brood.

Now is a concept of my own creation, inspired by BW custom campaigns: Most broods that are rendered leaderless will destroy themselves. Those broods that survive without cerebrates or assimilated terran commanders will eventually spawn new cerebrates. These cerebrates, or neo-minds if one prefers, operate at a distinct disadvantage because their memories are fragmented by the trauma inflicted through void magic. Like all Zerg intelligences, they are driven to dominate their environment and by extension to recreate the Overmind. They may be more closely compared to the Flood or Necromorphs in personality than other Zerg.

That is not all. Without the Overmind to regulate the Swarm, there is nothing preventing broods from accessing (or modifying) the genomes for cerebrates, miniature overminds, and other brain-like organisms contained within the larvae. While in practice this will not allow any single brood to instantly win the brood wars by creating an avatar for the Overmind (who is too dead to make use of it), this knowledge is used to resurrect the Overmind. EN posits that after an unspecified period of time, the brood wars are brought to an end when an alliance of broods (a long story in itself) successfully creates the biggest brain monster ever (involving the fusion of many cerebrates in a way that mimics the creation of giga brains from humans) that successfully connects the hive minds of all Zerg in the galaxy at once and allows them to come to a consensus.

According to EN: the new Overmind is essentially the same person as the previous Overmind, since the Overmind is formed from the amalgamated minds of all Zerg in existence. That said, the trauma the Zerg suffered during the Great War and the Brood Wars has convinced the Zerg and the Overmind to (temporarily) set aside their quest for perfection in order to focus on immediate survival. The Terrans and Protoss, who by this time have enslaved many broods, developed anti-Zerg weaponry and are making diplomatic overtures to one another, present an existential threat to the Zerg. Before the Zerg can become perfect, these threats must be eliminated.

At that point the timeline for EN simply stops. I imagine that it ultimately ends in either a Zerg victory or the Zerg being destroyed, depending on the plot branch, since otherwise you would end up with Overmind/QoB/Amon/BigBadEvilGuy whack-a-mole.

Mislagnissa

04-10-2018, 02:59 PM

The Starcraft lore is stagnant and dead at this point and the modding scene is mostly absent. It is still possible to introduce the UED as the new villain, but once they are gone then there is no way to move the story forward without retconning in another new faction that we have never heard of before. I have seen real suggestions to literally introduce the Burning Legion as the new antagonist. It honestly feels like the plot of Sailor Moon, where every season a new villain came out of the woodwork to keep selling merchandise. I can think of only one way to rejuvenate this rotting corpse of a franchise...

How could we write the story out of the corner and back into the galactic war status quo teased in the SC1 manual and website but glossed over in the games? Humanity is at civil war between the outer colonies and the authoritarian inner worlds while aliens attack. The zerg need to eat humanity to build psychic weapons of doom to defeat the protoss so that they can become perfect and conquer the universe. The protoss have a schism over whether humanity should die in the crossfire or not. Then the nerazim and taldarim show up to play the sides against each other. Ulrezaj founds his cult and stuff. Insert blah blah timeless themes of freedom versus control and all that shit which Metzen threw out in favor of his stupid romance fanfiction.

The "plot" of Enumerate, pretty much. How can we write Starcraft 3 to follow that, in what is basically a soft reboot of the series? Kerry's story is canonically finished so you cannot complain she is not in it! I want to see the zerg fuse thousands of human psychics into horrible giant brain monsters that shoot psychic nukes at the protoss. I want the Overmind resurrected yet again to rekindle the quest for perfection by assimilating the Protoss, then killed again to let the brain bugs and other monsters duke it out for control, then resurrected again to reunite the zerg against the evil terrans and protoss who would dare enslave them.

Fuck continuity because Blizzard never gave a fuck anyway!

P.S. I found a fanfic (https://www.fanfiction.net/s/3999905/6/The-Overmind) which has a similar backstory where the zerg are defeated by the dark templar on Shakuras and then centuries later try to weaponize humanity against them.

ragnarok

04-10-2018, 03:49 PM

Basically your version is just the nuke option, erase the whole franchise and start all over from the very beginning

Mislagnissa

04-10-2018, 04:48 PM

Basically your version is just the nuke option, erase the whole franchise and start all over from the very beginningNot really. I'd pick up existing plot threads and exploit the SC2 fantasy multiverse retcons to resurrect dead characters. I can freely ignore continuity because Blizzard doesn't care about consistency. Observe:

Starcraft 3: Enumerate rehashes the plot of SC1.

The Overmind and his cerebrates have returned from the void (SC2 set the precedent that it is the afterlife for void users), reunited the zerg and invaded UED space to get tasty terran psychic powers. Zagara, Izsha, Dehaka, Abathur and Stukov roll over. Abathur makes new psychic soldiers, creep colonies and super weapons out of people. After torturing protoss prisoners for intel, they invade the galactic protoss empire.

A new faction of Protoss, the Reclaimers, show up from the woodwork (just like the forged and purifiers). They follow the Khala, the Conclave and have a massive empire on the galactic fringe, like SC1 manual khala. It turns out that Aiur was just a colony in the boondocks, retroactively rendering its importance nil and turning Amon into a joke. They send an expedition to UED space to exterminate the zerg and terrans are caught in the crossfire. This results in schisms against the human advocates and dark protoss too.

Valerian rails against UED oppression (they killed his family, nuked Korhal off-screen, or something else to establish them as the villains of his personal story) and uses psi-emitters to lure zerg to Earth and other key planets. The Dominion unites all of humanity, but Umoja and KMC secretly undermine it by funding rebels and pirates, then by enslaving zerg.

Ulrezaj and Alarak seek vengeance against the Conclave for exiling their people (the forged and dark templar are equivalent, nobody cares to keep them straight). Ulrezaj is fanatical, while Alarak just wants to conquer and build a harem. They team up with Alan Schezar, the Defenders of Man and Moebius to enslave zerg as weapons.

Nova, Valerian and Alarak form a love triangle, because why not?

ragnarok

04-10-2018, 07:14 PM

Nova, Valerian and Alarak form a love triangle, because why not?

Now I know you've gone mad

Mislagnissa

04-11-2018, 07:12 AM

Now I know you've gone mad

To add insult to injury, the Overmind and cerebrates reveal that Duran, Ouros, Amon, Ulnar, the prophecy, the artifacts, the purple void goo dimension, and all the other "xel'naga" plot devices were just decoys they planted as part of an elaborate plot to... I don't know, find Earth? Kill Kerry? Conquer Aiur? Enslave the feral/primal zerg? Attract the attention of the reclaimers? Prepare their resurrection? The details are irrelevant, the important thing is they are back to continue their original plan to assimilate human psychic potential and then assimilate the protoss to become perfect. In any event, the real xel'naga were just a group of alien scientists who made a tiny mistake and ended up being eaten by their own experiments.

It makes about as much sense as all of Blizzard's other lame retcons, but this way the frachise is back on track and has a future. With a genuine conflict and a massive scale, it should reinvigorate the modders to create more custom campaigns where the races fight each other for believable reasons.

Turalyon

04-11-2018, 08:06 AM

sandwich_bird

04-11-2018, 11:58 AM

Man, this is why I like forums. Misla, you're truly an interesting character.

Nissa

04-11-2018, 12:44 PM

ragnarok

04-11-2018, 02:32 PM

My vote is to pretend that nothing after BW (besides maybe a couple of the downloadable missions) counts as canon. And none of the novels/comics count either.

Also, SC:Ghost should have been made. That looked like a fun game.

You know, I never really looked into the SC Ghost storyline. Do you know what it was originally supposed to be about, Nissa? (And by that I meant what was Nova's mission)

ragnarok

04-11-2018, 02:35 PM

It makes about as much sense as all of Blizzard's other lame retcons, but this way the frachise is back on track and has a future. With a genuine conflict and a massive scale, it should reinvigorate the modders to create more custom campaigns where the races fight each other for believable reasons.

I look at those and try to integrate it back to the existing lore as best I can, not just ignore it all. Now, if you want to come to CA and get Blizzard to redo the whole SC2 trilogy, then by all means I'll ignore the lore they made for the current SC2.

KaiserStratosTygo

04-12-2018, 10:24 AM

I too vote for making SC2 non-canon.

ragnarok

04-12-2018, 01:46 PM

I too vote for making SC2 non-canon.

I keep telling you Stratos there's no need, just redo the storyline in HotS and then see where LotV goes from there.

KaiserStratosTygo

04-12-2018, 09:07 PM

Nah, make it entirely non canon.

CLEAN SLATE

ragnarok

04-13-2018, 12:18 PM

Nah, make it entirely non canon.

CLEAN SLATE

The whole reckoning will be necessary, but that's to see what future lore holds

Mislagnissa

04-13-2018, 02:06 PM

Via retcon. Sc2 (plus BW and the game story of Sc1 according to Misla) is precedent so it's OK. The details of how, why, what and when don't really matter.

Huh, this was way easier to answer than I expected.That is what I just said. See, the new lore makes a number of retcons that I retcon or add on to.

Protoss Empire: In an old version of lore the protoss held a huge empire on the galactic fringe, and Koprulu was a tiny sector on their border. In the most recent version of the lore, they are limited to Aiur which is inside Koprulu. There are also numerous other differences, like SC1 protoss having different skin pigments by tribe that was changed to a homogenous pale blue in SC2, the SC1 developing their advanced technology before the aeon of strife whereas SC2 has them stone age and all their tech was made by the xel'naga, etc. Therefore, I would rationalize this as Aiur being an isolated colony of the empire which still exists outside Koprulu. In SC3, the empire sends another expedition to identify the threat posed by the zerg, since the empire discovered their probes on their borders and was disturbed by reading their minds. This allows you to bring back the Khala and protoss culture which was pointlessly destroyed by SC2 without even being really explored by the franchise, as well as opening the way for an actual galactic war between the zerg and protoss.

United Earth Directorate: In an older version of the lore Koprulu was completely cut off from Earth to provide a clean slate, by as of Heroes of the Storm Koprulu was settled by colonists from Earth and the UED fleet was sent to reverse the Dominion's secession (and continue some version of Project Bellwood, Black Flag, Blackstone or whatever the plot to weaponize zerg is called). They never heard from the fleet again, but they still have an intelligence network in Koprulu (never stated to be disbanded), so they can just send another fleet to annex the Dominion. This brings them into conflict with Valerian, who revives the Sons of Korhal and uses psi emitters to lure zerg to Earth so he can reform the Dominion. The Umojans and KMC can be brought in saboteurs, publicly serving the Dominion while secretly funding pirates and breeding armies of enslaved zerg.

Zerg Swarm: In an older version of lore the zerg wanted to create hybrids to conquer the universe, but in new lore this motive was moved to Amon (in fact, all of the original zerg motivation was moved to the xel'naga wholesale in a stupid attempt to make them good guys). However, in both versions of the lore the natural state of the zerg is vicious monsters that want to eat everything (which organically leads into Amon's motivation). The "corrupted" zerg do not and only because they were brainwashed: Zagara wants peace, Niadra wants to kill protoss. The atrocious Queen of Blades novel depicts cerebrates as having fantasy genre-style souls that survive their bodies, so it is actually quite easy to rationalize the SC2 "xel'naga" as being cerebrates in disguise. Duran and Amon were trying to usurp the Overmind, whereas Ouros remained loyal and tricked Kerry because her memories were erased.

My vote is to pretend that nothing after BW (besides maybe a couple of the downloadable missions) counts as canon. And none of the novels/comics count either.

Also, SC:Ghost should have been made. That looked like a fun game.This is not really necessary. Just make two retcons: the SC2 "xel'naga" were cerebrates in disguise, and Aiur is just a fringe colony of the SC1 manual protoss empire. In the plot of SC3, the overmind and cerebrates return to continue their original plan to weaponize humanity and consume the protoss, the protoss empire sends an expedition to terran space to investigate the origin of the zerg probes, and the UED sends another fleet to annex the Dominion and send Valerian on a repeat of the Rebel Yell plot.

I look at those and try to integrate it back to the existing lore as best I can, not just ignore it all. Now, if you want to come to CA and get Blizzard to redo the whole SC2 trilogy, then by all means I'll ignore the lore they made for the current SC2.
The lore is too long, inconsistent and unwieldy to make sense of now, so I would just ignore it in favor of writing a new story to appeal to new audiences that are not familiar with the lore. Only about two retcons to the organization of the zerg and protoss are necessary to open up the plot, and these do not require rewriting the cheesy and hackneyed plots of the games.

The whole reckoning will be necessary, but that's to see what future lore holds

Shadow Wars looks awful, to be honest. Niadra is only an antagonist because Kerry told her to kill protoss, which is exactly what SC2 retconned as the orders of the Overmind. It is a lame rehash. Furthermore, Niadra is nowhere near as interesting a villain as the SC1 Overmind and cerebrates. So screw her!

Nah, make it entirely non canon.

CLEAN SLATE

That is essentially what I just said. I acknowledge the events of past games as canon, but introduce a couple retcons to essentially recreate the plot of SC1. The plot of my SC3 idea would not require the player to have familiarity with the previous games, but will not contradict them.

Contradicting past games to that degree would only confuse consumers. Not everyone is a lore junkie.

Mislagnissa

04-13-2018, 02:58 PM

The Starcraft story is so inconsistent and convoluted that it is not worth keeping track of it. Just pretend the games make sense and that they happened, but when writing the next entry don’t rely on them.

Here are my suggestions for making a sensible background.

Deliberate Retcons to faction histories:

Terran: Koprulu was a deliberate colonization effort sent by the UPL, and never really lost contact with Earth. The governments of Koprulu nominally seceded from Earth, provoking the UED to send a fleet to annex them and deal with the alien threat.
Zerg: The “xel’naga” characters in SC2 were actually cerebrates in disguise, as they have the immortality falsely ascribed to xel’naga. The xel’naga was not gods, but mortal scientists eaten by the zerg. The control of the zerg by Zagara is only temporary, as the Overmind and his loyal cerebrates will eventually return to continue the grand experiment.
Protoss: Aiur is not the homeworld of the protoss, but an isolated and inbred colony. The real protoss empire from the SC1 manual is doing just fine on the galactic fringe. They are growing concerned by the lack of contact from Koprulu.
Primal Zerg: The “Zerus” inhabited by the primal zerg is actually a lost colony from a zerg expansion forgotten centuries ago. The primal zerg are analogous to the forgotten fleets of the tyranids, not the original state of the zerg. The original zerg were telepathic, whereas the primal zerg have lost their telepathy.
Tal’darim: The “tal’darim” is just a generic label for various fringe cults. There are multiple tribes of tal’darim with no relation to one another. Alarak’s tribe was of many lost colonies dating to the Aeon of Strife, but never had contact with Amon until recently. Not only did Amon lie to them, but he was never actually the god they worshiped in the first place.

Other retcons and rationalizations

All of the planets seen in the series thus far are located in or near the Koprulu sector, including Aiur, Slayn, and jungle Zerus. They represent only the tiniest sliver of the diversity the galaxy offers. The FTL journeys are much, much shorter than the absurd scales given in canon. The real protoss and zerg homeworlds are too far away for any of the characters to travel within their life times. In fact, Koprulu is actually on the fringe of UED space and the protoss empire, within the Orion Arm. The actual distance traveled from Earth to Koprulu is around 60 light years, not the 60 thousand given on the wiki.
The determinant is still a thing. While the Aiur protoss were pussies who could be defeated by the terrans, the real empire is invincible. The zerg need to assimilate terran psychic potential, then research and develop new weapons against the empire. Although the zerg have acquired a lot of psychic genes, they have yet to really explore the applications. The aberrations are just a random mutation that is redundant to the countless other warrior beasts in the swarm, and the swarm queens (SC2 style queens) and changelings (produced by overseers) only scratch the surface of what is possible.
The protoss can be infested, because that is the only thing which makes logical sense. The zerg simply haven’t finished R&D yet. Amon’s hybrids are actually failures, since they are not perfect. They probably have short life spans and cancer or something.
The void, void demons, and other fantasy elements are just smoke and mirrors created by the cerebrates. In order to compete with the increased power scale of SC2, I have increased their capabilities beyond what they had in canon.
The adostra and chitha are not actually xel’naga, since as stated before the “xel’naga” was actually cerebrates. The “essence” used to create them is actually a mix of cerebrate and ghost cells. Cerebrates are vastly superior to Abathur and Zagara, so they are unable to replicate it.

Turalyon

04-13-2018, 10:49 PM

Contradicting past games to that degree would only confuse consumers. Not everyone is a lore junkie.

Well, all entries after Sc1 (and even Sc1 itself) contradict it according to you, so shouldn't "contradiction and retcons be expected now? No-one really cares about the story anyhow, they'll lap it up as long as it looks good.

It's at the point now that I would absolutely accept anything that happens in the Sc universe no matter how ludicrous and I wouldn't even bat an eyelid nor care for it. Any continuation of the story is just an excuse to continue the story - it's all pointless and not worth caring about. Why beat a dead horse?

The Starcraft story is so inconsistent and convoluted that it is not worth keeping track of it. Just pretend the games make sense and that they happened, but when writing the next entry don’t rely on them.

Eh, if it's not worth keeping track, why would you even bother making another entry/continuing from it? You'd only continue with something if there was something worth continuing on from.

ragnarok

04-14-2018, 12:51 PM

That is essentially what I just said. I acknowledge the events of past games as canon, but introduce a couple retcons to essentially recreate the plot of SC1. The plot of my SC3 idea would not require the player to have familiarity with the previous games, but will not contradict them.

Contradicting past games to that degree would only confuse consumers. Not everyone is a lore junkie.

So let them take things from the SC2 lore POV

Mislagnissa

04-17-2018, 07:06 AM

So let them take things from the SC2 lore POV

No, because of two reasons.

1) the SC2 story makes no sense, something which you seem incapable of realizing. Amon and Overmind always had the same goal, but one is a villain and the other a hero, which is bad writing.

2) the SC2 has no future without precisely the retcons I mentioned. Shadow Wars looks like it is shaping up to make Niadra the main antagonist to replace Overmind and Amon in another rehash of the SC1/SC2 plot template. Why not just resurrect the Overmind?

Gradius

04-17-2018, 11:39 AM

Mislagnissa

04-17-2018, 12:21 PM

Im confused. Which one is the hero?

The Overmind, somehow. The zerg underwent the same change as the orcs did, being pawns of a blood curse thing, except that the retcon sabotaged itself by portraying the natural state of the zerg as vicious monsters that consume other species for genes. The Overmind was rebelling against Amon only because Amon would discard the zerg, which is nowhere near sufficient to justify making Amon an entirely separate villain.

Adding Amon is redundant and makes far less sense than resurrecting the Overmind a second time. So that's why my suggestion to put the franchise back on track was to retcon Amon into a rogue cerebrate and resurrect the Overmind. It makes so much more sense than the xel'naga space gods cycle prophecy stuff.

ragnarok

04-17-2018, 12:48 PM

No, because of two reasons.

1) the SC2 story makes no sense, something which you seem incapable of realizing. Amon and Overmind always had the same goal, but one is a villain and the other a hero, which is bad writing.

2) the SC2 has no future without precisely the retcons I mentioned. Shadow Wars looks like it is shaping up to make Niadra the main antagonist to replace Overmind and Amon in another rehash of the SC1/SC2 plot template. Why not just resurrect the Overmind?

Not all of us got into the SC universe from the SC1 lore. There certainly are holes, something I'm still looking for ways to fill in, that is all.

Mislagnissa

04-17-2018, 01:35 PM

Not all of us got into the SC universe from the SC1 lore. There certainly are holes, something I'm still looking for ways to fill in, that is all.

What holes are you talking about and how do you propose to fill them? The plot of Starcraft 2 is embarrassingly bad and cannot be salvaged. Even my suggestions are just glossing over it while focusing on future games instead.

I am aware that SC2 fans may have points of contention against my suggestions. Backtracking retcons will lose fans, SC2 players would be confused, a bigger protoss empire from nowhere would trivialize the Aiur protoss and creates plot holes, the psi emitter is overused, etc. To all those complaints, I say that Blizzard already pulls those stunts all the time and whining about them is pointless.

Retcons are not inherently bad, and retcons to fix the franchise and put it back on track would only lose the shallow fans. The Overmind and Khala (as well as all the baggage associated with them like the cerebrates, broods, tribes, castes, etc) are the only parts of the zerg and protoss which make them interesting and different from humans. Starcraft 2 is crappy for destroying all that. (https://electriccartilage.wordpress.com/2012/02/09/the-fall-of-starcraft-2s-story/)
Players introduced through SC2 had no problems understanding the plot (despite its sheer stupidity), so backtracking by re-introducing the Overmind and Khala would not be a big leap for them. The zerg and protoss are crappy and boring otherwise, because that was the entirety of their culture and they have nothing else to do but ape humans (which is stupid).
Introducing a new protoss empire is no different from introducing the UED, since SC1 went to so much effort to cut off Earth for a clean slate only to throw all that work into the shitter in the first expansion. In fact, this is exactly what Blizzard did in Warcraft 2 and 3: introduce new empires and entire continents which did not exist before. Starcraft is a scifi setting in which they could introduce literally anything. Introducing a new protoss empire would fix more problems than it creates, since SC2 went out of its way to make the protoss into a generic dying race with no genetic diversity (the manual stated tribes had distinct skin tones) or any culture period beyond bland paladin stereotypes (again, the manual stated that tribes had their own cultures).
The plot holes created by a new big protoss empire can be easily explained. The Aiur protoss did not evacuate to the empire? Well clearly there were extenuating factors, like maybe they did not have access or something? Maybe they were cut off for centuries and forgot the empire existed? In any case, that complaint is easily addressed.
Yes, the psi emitter is overused, but that's the problem with introducing plot devices like that. You absolutely have to use them whenever it would be convenient, otherwise your characters will look like idiots. Really, you should chastise Blizzard for introducing psi emitters in the first place.
Lastly, SC3 will definitely make a bunch of stupid new retcons that SC2 fans will complain about (while SC1 fans will just shake their heads knowingly), because that is what Blizzard does. At least my suggestions would make the lore less convoluted and inconsistent. It is virtually certain that SC3 will introduce new factions that never existed before in order to justify another galactic apocalypse plot and be essentially a self-contained story only tangentially related to the previous installments, since every single Starcraft and Warcraft game has done just that.

ragnarok

04-17-2018, 04:05 PM

Mislagnissa

04-17-2018, 04:25 PM

It's exactly this reason why I had gotten the impression back when I was on the battlenet forums that the people who disliked the SC2 storyline felt the writers should be locked in the insane asylum for writing a story that a monkey could have done better.

Now yes we all know even those who aren't die hard lore fans certainly felt there were serious problems with the storyline, but I'm not convinced to just use the nuke option on it

Again, I did not suggest the nuke option. I suggested resurrecting dead plot points to pick up the slack in this franchise.

Seriously, if BW can retcon in the UED and SC2 can retcon in Amon, then retconning in a galactic protoss empire and a revived overmind is perfectly permissible. Blizzard will definitely do something like that to justify another apocalypse in SC3. Remember the Eredar fiasco?

Can anyone give compelling reasons why my suggestions would not rejuvenate the franchise and are not better than anything Blizz could think up?

Mislagnissa

04-17-2018, 05:28 PM

Reading about the development of Starcraft reveals that major events like the fall of the Confederacy, the infestation of Kerry, the invasion of Aiur, Tassadar's sacrifice, etc were not originally planned but devised well into production. The backstory in the original manual seemed to have solidified before then and informed development. The status quo is that the zerg and protoss are fighting in koprulu with terrans caught in the middle.

Let's have a thought experiment. If you had to write the story of a new game using only the original manual as a basis, what would you have written?

Let's add some rules to keep things from getting stale: you cannot include Metzen's bizarre extraneous additions like Queen of Blades, UED, or the xel'naga. This is because Koprulu was deliberately cut off from Earth for a clean slate, the zerg build armies of monsters not individual mary sues, and the xel'naga are just a plot device to explain where the aliens came from. Adding those dilute the premise and, despite what some people might think, are not integral to Starcraft.

Obviously, I would have used Enumerate as my template so I have no further comment in that area.

ragnarok

04-17-2018, 07:51 PM

There you go with this again, which shows you're mostly interested in using the nuke option

ragnarok

04-17-2018, 07:52 PM

Again, I did not suggest the nuke option. I suggested resurrecting dead plot points to pick up the slack in this franchise.

Seriously, if BW can retcon in the UED and SC2 can retcon in Amon, then retconning in a galactic protoss empire and a revived overmind is perfectly permissible. Blizzard will definitely do something like that to justify another apocalypse in SC3. Remember the Eredar fiasco?

First tell me about the Eredar fiasco.

Turalyon

04-17-2018, 11:23 PM

Amon and Overmind always had the same goal, but one is a villain and the other a hero, which is bad writing.

Well, LotV potentially retconned this already though. Given that the Zeratul stuff in WoL was revealed to be part of a ruse by Ouros (the "Deceiver" as I like to call him) to manipulate things to get Kerrigan to him, all those things about Tassadar and the subsequent Overminds vision could all be bunk. I think Ouros is supposed to be the hero ("good Xel'Naga to Amon's "evil" Xel'Naga), not the Overmind. For all we know, they could make it as if Ouros being really of the same ilk as Amon and be the next big bad (and is now using Kerrigan as a vessel) if a SC3 had to follow on from SC2. Then the Kerigan haters can rejoice so that the story now has an excuse to put her down for good! ;)

Turalyon

04-18-2018, 04:40 AM

ragnarok

04-18-2018, 11:55 AM

Well, LotV potentially retconned this already though. Given that the Zeratul stuff in WoL was revealed to be part of a ruse by Ouros (the "Deceiver" as I like to call him) to manipulate things to get Kerrigan to him, all those things about Tassadar and the subsequent Overminds vision could all be bunk. I think Ouros is supposed to be the hero ("good Xel'Naga to Amon's "evil" Xel'Naga), not the Overmind. For all we know, they could make it as if Ouros being really of the same ilk as Amon and be the next big bad (and is now using Kerrigan as a vessel) if a SC3 had to follow on from SC2. Then the Kerigan haters can rejoice so that the story now has an excuse to put her down for good! ;)

If you're going to make Ouros the hero, you shouldn't have had him give Kerrigan the whole matter of ascension. Hell, just drain her instead. She can get the heroic sacrifice, and Ouros can deal with Amon himself.

sandwich_bird

04-18-2018, 12:08 PM

Let's add some rules to keep things from getting stale: you cannot include Metzen's bizarre extraneous additions like Queen of Blades, UED, or the xel'naga.

Obviously, I would have used Enumerate as my template so I have no further comment in that area.

:rolleyes:

Mislagnissa

04-18-2018, 02:39 PM

First tell me about the Eredar fiasco.

It has its own wiki page. (https://wow.gamepedia.com/Draenei_controversy)

Well, LotV potentially retconned this already though. Given that the Zeratul stuff in WoL was revealed to be part of a ruse by Ouros (the "Deceiver" as I like to call him) to manipulate things to get Kerrigan to him, all those things about Tassadar and the subsequent Overminds vision could all be bunk. I think Ouros is supposed to be the hero ("good Xel'Naga to Amon's "evil" Xel'Naga), not the Overmind. For all we know, they could make it as if Ouros being really of the same ilk as Amon and be the next big bad (and is now using Kerrigan as a vessel) if a SC3 had to follow on from SC2. Then the Kerigan haters can rejoice so that the story now has an excuse to put her down for good! ;)

How is that really so different from my suggestion to retcon Ouros and Amon into cerebrates? I do not like Ouros or find him remotely interesting. I want the Overmind and cerebrates back. I want their culture explored like Unhappy Anchovy suggested over at spacebattles. Brood mothers are lame and boring.

Mislagnissa

04-18-2018, 02:43 PM

You should probably also add the rule that the status quo (that the 3 races are always equal and never gain a decisive advantage over the other) has to be maintained because otherwise it'd be too easily biased toward one's race preference.

For example, if it were up to me following on from the manual and the status quo could be changeable, I'd just have the Zerg take the psionic potential off the Terrans and kill them all off cos the Terrans are really that weak. Then the Zerg fight the Protoss for some time until they get enough samples to start assimilating them and then eventually beat them as well. The bits in between are all just "details". As you can probably tell from this, I have a bias toward/like the Zerg and it'd make for a dull story... :p

Sure, why not?

:rolleyes:
There is no obligation to include the fall of the Confederacy or the invasion of Aiur either. The Koprulu war could last an arbitrarily long period of time. Starcraft 1 kind of shot itself in the foot by resolving every plot thread it introduced, which is why every sequel is kind of lame. You could make a whole franchise about the Koprulu war alone.

EDIT: Even the whole thing about dark templar killing cerebrates can be ignored because it is not foreshadowed in the manual. In fact, cerebrate immortality is not suggested either. They could be killed by normal means!

ragnarok

04-18-2018, 07:32 PM

EDIT: Even the whole thing about dark templar killing cerebrates can be ignored because it is not foreshadowed in the manual. In fact, cerebrate immortality is not suggested either. They could be killed by normal means!

You mean what happened in the last BW terran mission? I felt the 3rd protoss mission used the DT killing strategy merely to force the player to build DTs. After all, the Overmind made it clear in SC1 that HE'S the one who does the reincarnating. The Cerebrates can't do it themselves.

ragnarok

04-18-2018, 07:34 PM

How is that really so different from my suggestion to retcon Ouros and Amon into cerebrates? I do not like Ouros or find him remotely interesting. I want the Overmind and cerebrates back. I want their culture explored like Unhappy Anchovy suggested over at spacebattles. Brood mothers are lame and boring.

It's to try something different than the cerebrates. Personally I felt Kerrigan shouldn't have used too much of herself as a template for the broodmothers. In all actuality I'm surprised none of them bothered to conspire against her (maybe that would have happened in the future had the events of WoL never happened)

Nissa

04-18-2018, 07:58 PM

I wouldn't have made a game. I would have made a novel series.

...But, if we must make a game, I would have made it exactly like SC and BW, except that Aldaris would have a logical reason for not sending a transmission to Zeratul about the Matriarch, the second Terran missions would have been about Mengsk maintaining his rule/dealing with factions and infighting, and Raynor and Fenix would not have worked all that closely with Kerrigan for no reason.

Turalyon

04-19-2018, 05:08 AM

If you're going to make Ouros the hero, you shouldn't have had him give Kerrigan the whole matter of ascension.

I'm not doing anything. The game ultimately bills Ouros as the hero/good guy, to Amon's villain/bad guy. Kerrigan's "forced redemption" isn't possible without Ouros gifting her the power to kill the villain/bad guy.

How is that really so different from my suggestion to retcon Ouros and Amon into cerebrates?

I was just commenting on the apparent retcon in WoL of the Overmind being the "good guy" (to Amon's "bad guy") being later retconned in LotV as Ouros actually being the "good guy" instead and that this can then later be retconned into Ouros being just another "bad guy".

As to those Xel'Naga being retconned into cerebrates, well, that takes another level of um... incredulity that the series cannot afford to sustain given that most of the retcons in Sc2 tipped us into BS territory already. If you're going to do that, we might as well retcon Raynor into being revealed as a time travelling, amnesiac, far-flung future Xel'Naga, too, while we're at it.

I do not like Ouros or find him remotely interesting. I want the Overmind and cerebrates back. I want their culture explored like Unhappy Anchovy suggested over at spacebattles. Brood mothers are lame and boring.

Ditto regarding Ouros. As to the Overmind and cerebrates coming back... eh, I did consider them coming back for a long time (I fanoned way back after when BW was released that the Overmind that died at Aiur wasn't technically the Overmind...) but the more I think about it the more I'm glad it didn't for various reasons. BW already had the neo-Overmind, so having it coming back again after that would just feel more like a repetitious "been there, done that" feel. It'd feel like a conceit for the sake of continuing something and relying on nostalgia to carry it - much like what Sc2 in its entirety ended up feeling like. Time for any actual continuation of Sc's story to die methinks. Stick to Enumerate.

Mislagnissa

04-19-2018, 07:39 AM

You mean what happened in the last BW terran mission? I felt the 3rd protoss mission used the DT killing strategy merely to force the player to build DTs. After all, the Overmind made it clear in SC1 that HE'S the one who does the reincarnating. The Cerebrates can't do it themselves.

Why are you expecting SC to be consistent? It is not and never has been consistent. The writers made things up as they went along.

I wouldn't have made a game. I would have made a novel series.

...But, if we must make a game, I would have made it exactly like SC and BW, except that Aldaris would have a logical reason for not sending a transmission to Zeratul about the Matriarch, the second Terran missions would have been about Mengsk maintaining his rule/dealing with factions and infighting, and Raynor and Fenix would not have worked all that closely with Kerrigan for no reason.That's against the rules I listed. I specifically said no QoB.

The official games are a complete waste of the IP's potential: full of plot devices, deus ex machinas, retcons, plot holes, villains coming out of the woodwork, etc. I really do not understand why you would just ape them. Here, I'll give an example of what kind of story you could tell if you were starting from scratch without aping the plot of BW.

The setup given in the manual is that the zerg are invading humanity to use their psychic genes for developing weapons against the protoss. However, the protoss have tracked zerg deep space probes to the koprulu sector. Executor Tassadar incinerated Chau Sara, but his conscience forced him to withdraw. Now the Confederacy is dealing with the zerg infestation that is steadily approaching the heart of their space. There are also politics at play among all three races.

In addition to the Confederacy are the Umojans and Kel-Morians and rebels. The Kel-Morians have been all but annexed into a client state of the Confederacy, but the recent alien invasion gives them a chance to reclaim their power. The Umojans are secretly funding rebel activities against the Confederacy, and they want to make truce with the protoss to learn from them.

In the protoss, the tribes Ara and Akilae have come into conflict over how to deal with the terrans caught in the crossfire. The Ara, a judicator caste and "praetorian guard" tribe, sees no problem with exterminating them as collateral damage. The Akilae, a templar caste and "high templar command" tribe, wants to protect the terrans against the zerg. Meanwhile, the mysterious dark templar have probably followed the zerg probes as well, and they might involve themselves in the conflict for whatever reason.

In the Zerg, the broods have a unity but can still develop camaraderie, rivalry and other politics. Zasz of the Garm Brood is considered whiny and unstable by the other cerebrates, while Kagg of the Surtur Brood is blood crazed and needs to be restrained when not deployed.

I would stay away from the psi emitter plot, since it is overused and the logic behind it is questionable. While it makes sense that the zerg would investigate the source, they are doing so because they are searching for psychics to assimilate. If they discover they are being lured then they may refuse.

I would stay away from anything approaching infested terran leaders for the swarm. The zerg desire the terrans for use as weapons, not control nodes. Furthermore, the Overmind created the cerebrates in the form of giant brains. I assume there is a practical reason for this and that you cannot just ignore that in future installments to replace them with pack leaders, brood mothers or whatever.

Since cerebrates are not immortal and the Overmind is a bodiless entity, there is no deus ex machina that can defeat all the zerg at once. If a cerebrate is killed, then I presume its brood will just create a new one. However, given the existence of psychic warfare, I suppose it make sense that broods could be fractured from the swarm. Given what we already know about the Overmind uniting the zerg, I predict these fractured broods would develop their own separate Overminds or something along those lines.

All three races have their own motivations and conflicts. The terrans are dealing with civil strife and alien invasion. The zerg need to assimilate the terrans before the protoss destroy them and survive long enough to develop a force that can invade the protoss empire. The protoss are dealing with a debate over whether to save or exterminate the terrans in the process. The dark templar are out there, biding their time.

It is a sandbox setting which could really go anywhere.

Mislagnissa

04-19-2018, 08:25 AM

It's to try something different than the cerebrates.

The problem with that statement is that the cerebrates were never tried. They were teased during SC1 and given a suggestion of depth, with directives reflected in their personalities and broods, but ultimately killed off without fanfare. They proved ultimately irrelevant to the narrative, to the point where later retellings barely mention them if at all.

The brood mothers are just as irrelevant to the narrative as the cerebrates. Unlike the cerebrates, however, they are never even hinted as having goals of their own, personalities of any depth, or broods that reflect their goals. Zagara and Niadra have absolutely no personality whatsoever and mindlessly obey the last directives given to them by Kerry without any critical thought. Abathur and Dehaka have more depth by comparison, equivalent to those of SC1 cerebrates/broods. Just think of it: the SC1 cerebrates were characters with just as much or more depth as Abathur and Dehaka.

The same may be said of the protoss tribes and castes. Aside from being mentioned in the lore, the tribes and castes never played a role in the narrative. The only sides that mattered were the Khalai, Nerazim and Tal'darim. Even then their cultures have been barely ever explored and the significance of the Khala is completely glossed over. Indeed, the khalai, nerazim and tal'darim are functionally equivalent to SC1 tribes. In SC1 each of tribes were explained to fall neatly into one of the three castes, each tribe aka "sect" had a unique skin tone, and each tribe had their own culture which was variably integrated into the khala. Just think of it: in SC1 the protoss had numerous tribes, each of which had the same or more depth as just one of the SC2 factions.

Starcraft is just full of wasted potential like this.

I was just commenting on the apparent retcon in WoL of the Overmind being the "good guy" (to Amon's "bad guy") being later retconned in LotV as Ouros actually being the "good guy" instead and that this can then later be retconned into Ouros being just another "bad guy".That does not really explain why he explicitly called the Overmind courageous, even though the Overmind wanted to eat everyone. We know the Overmind wanted to eat everyone because that is exactly what the primal zerg do for a living, and there is no reason to believe the Overmind would behave any differently. If Ouros was a cerebrate who served the Overmind, slipping up and calling it courageous while pretending to be Tassadar's ghost makes sense.

As to those Xel'Naga being retconned into cerebrates, well, that takes another level of um... incredulity that the series cannot afford to sustain given that most of the retcons in Sc2 tipped us into BS territory already. If you're going to do that, we might as well retcon Raynor into being revealed as a time travelling, amnesiac, far-flung future Xel'Naga, too, while we're at it.Why not do the reverse and retcon the Overmind into a xel'naga? I mean, the official story goes that Amon created the Overmind to control the zerg, but we are never told exactly how this was done. Maybe Amon took another xel'naga and turned him into the Overmind. Maybe he took a group of xel'naga and turned them into the cerebrates, which explains why the xel'naga (and, for that matter, void thrashers) look like giant squid worm things similar how one might imagine the cerebrates based on their initial description alone. It is a way to bridge the gap between the retcons without (completely) alienating people only familiar with SC2's explanation.

BW already had the neo-Overmind, so having it coming back again after that would just feel more like a repetitious "been there, done that" feel. It'd feel like a conceit for the sake of continuing something and relying on nostalgia to carry it - much like what Sc2 in its entirety ended up feeling like. Time for any actual continuation of Sc's story to die methinks. Stick to Enumerate.BW never actually did anything with the neo-Overmind: it was just a plot device, not a character. In fact, most of SC's plot boils down to the stupidest, most wasteful implementation of ideas that sound interesting on paper and probably would have been interesting in the hands of a better writer than Metzen.

The problem with continuations, reboots, retools, etc is that the fans cannot agree and whatever does happens will alienate people.

Reboot: Almost nobody is interested in a reboot to make the franchise more consistent, even though that happens in comics and movies all the time. Enumerate is not the only possibility, but it's the only suggestion that has its own fluff bible. You, me and Gradius are the only people who have ever spoken of it positively. Everyone else is butthurt that Kerry is not the main character. Unless other people are interested in supporting me, I do not have any incentive to put the effort into telling my own story.

Brood War 2: There is no chance in hell that Blizzard will write an alternate universe that continues from BW while ignoring SC2. The way that World of Warcraft raped the lore of Warcraft is clear proof of that. Even if they did in some alternate universe, it would end with Kerry killing everyone, or being killed by Duran, because BW ended on a downer note where she killed most of the protoss and terrans and rendered them unable to contribute to a sequel. Furthermore, there are already dozens of custom campaigns which do continue from BW. At least one of them is even written in the SC2 engine.

Starcraft 3: Continuing from SC2 is its own can of worms. Given Blizzard's past behavior, the official continuation (whether as SC3 or a new campaign for SC2) will be loaded with a new set of retcons that will alienate players of SC2 (while SC1 players will just shake their heads in exasperation that SC2 fans did not expect this). A continuation that did not introduce a bunch of extreme retcons would not have much to work with: all the factions are at peace (despite this being unrealistic and boring) and any attempts to create new conflict would feel forced (case in point: Niadra is a meat robot mindless following Kerry's last orders and the Defenders of Man are outright lunatics without a real goal). Even the custom campaigns that continued the story of SC2 have introduced new villains out of the woodwork: evil robots that can pretend to be people, the purifiers randomly turning genocidal, the Overmind coming back and dying again in the span of one or two missions, the tal'darim worshiping a new random space demon/witch-king/whatever, rogue brood mothers building armies of hybrids, primal zerg on other planets without explanation, independent tribes of protoss who were never enslaved by Amon, independent terran governments and zerg broods outside the Koprulu sector, and so forth.