SCLegacy Podcast?

[Undeadprotoss]

I was thinking, a really idea to start with a YouTube thing is to upload a couple podcasts. It's fairly easy to do and we could probably manage to get guests like Jayborino on at times. What do you guys think?

Maybe have it be weekly, bimonthly, whatever.

[Nissa]

I wouldn't mind, but we'd have to plan that ahead.

Also, what kind of topics would we go on about?

[Undeadprotoss]

For a few:

-The future of the franchise, will there be a SC3?
-What are some paths that SC2 could have explored. Basically a "what could have been" episode
-Which race has the strongest, most compelling lore and why?
-Who was the strongest character in SC1, SC2, etc?
-Anything remotely related to SC1 or SC2.

[Nissa]

Those are all pretty broad topics. It would be better to narrow down stuff so that the podcast doesn't become muddled.

I'd like a podcast on the nature of SC characterization. Like, how it's changed over time. Honestly, I was watching clips from the Nova downloadables, and despite the racial diversity, everyone's the friggin' same. They're all monotonal, dead-eyed bread rolls.

Here's some stuff off the top of my head:
- Exactly how evil is Duke?
- Favorite characters
- What do we know for sure about Umoja and the KM Combine?
- Has Mengsk's story really been told? (ala being replaced by Valerian)

[Undeadprotoss]

How about we talk about the regression of Zeratul? How he went from one of the best and most beloved characters in SC1to a crazed and unrecognizable nomad in SC2?

[Mislagnissa]

There are already loads and loads of essays about the bad writing in SC2. The impossible economy of the dominion, the changing utility of the taldarim, the psychotic heroes, the space magic that does whatever the plot requires, the plot holes in the prophecies and evil plots, duran being limited to an anagram of his real name like Carmilla the vampire, the villains being complete idiots, etc. We know.

What we need is more criticism of SC1 and BW. Loomings and Rebel Yell are competent given the limited format, but Overmind and the Stand have... problems. Brood War is pretty much a completely different universe.

[Nissa]

I think you're hitting BW too hard. It is most certainly NOT a completely different universe. Yes, many plot elements went unexplained, Aiur's situation was retconned, and adding the UED wasn't the best of ideas, but it still had the great voice acting and feel of the previous game. It made most feel the same sorts of emotions that the first game made me feel. Given that I've met basically no one who criticizes BW to the extent you do, most people seem to feel the same way.

At the same time, it's fine if people want to talk about the flaws of BW. It may want to be something separated into categories, though.

- the condition of Aiur, and what about other Protoss worlds besides Aiur and Shakuras?
- how the inclusion of the UED changed SC and why they haven't been back
- how in the world did Kerrigan convince Raynor and Fenix to go along with her ideas?

[Mislagnissa]

How about we talk about the regression of Zeratul? How he went from one of the best and most beloved characters in SC1to a crazed and unrecognizable nomad in SC2?Maybe discuss the retcons to the Protoss civilization?

In SC1 they had a god-like civilization, killed hundreds of their own gods, nuked themselves into the stone age, and are now still reliant on reverse engineering their ancestral tech. The Aeon of Strife is referred to in the original manual as the "bloodiest, most violent civil war ever recorded in galactic history," meaning that the Protoss Empire at the time was a galactic civilization (or became one because of the Aeon). They are a young civilization far from reaching their peak. While they may be longer lived than humans, it has been a few generations since the khala was founded: Raszagal was born on Aiur and banished around a thousand years previous (according to the DT novels, if you want to ignore that detail). This contrasts them from generic space elves and makes them unique.

In the original manual the Protoss are described as holding many worlds (approximately an eighth of the galaxy? the galactic fringe?), and the Dark Templar are nomadic. SC/BW retcons this for no reason: In Episode 3 there's no mention of them holding planets other than Aiur; Episode 4 claims Shakuras is the Dark Templar home world.

SC2 retcons their original civilization to the stone age, while keeping them killing their gods and the Aeon of Strife is still referred to as a galactic war. They become a decaying civilization that reached its peak long ago. They even have low fertility. This is exactly like generic space elves!

SC2's post-Aeon development introduces motherships, colossi, purifiers and the Spear of Adun. The Spear's culture clash subplot is nonsensical, as one of the downsides of the Khala is cultural stagnation, so they would not be much different from the Khalai refugees aside from being suddenly thrown into the aftermath of a war. The Spear of Adun would ironically make more sense as refugees from before the Aeon when the precursor to the Khala was much different (the original manual states that the Protoss extended their telepathic link to encompass the whole planet, but it was not given a distinct name until Khas named it Khala and added the castes and religious aspects). The same goes for the other technology, as it makes no sense the motherships and colossi would not have been used in Episode 3 if they were available. Zeratul activating them makes sense if he's still supposed to be the adventurer/archaeologist he was in the original manual, but not if he was reconnected to a mad prophet.


I think you're hitting BW too hard. It is most certainly NOT a completely different universe. Yes, many plot elements went unexplained, Aiur's situation was retconned, and adding the UED wasn't the best of ideas, but it still had the great voice acting and feel of the previous game. It made most feel the same sorts of emotions that the first game made me feel. Given that I've met basically no one who criticizes BW to the extent you do, most people seem to feel the same way.

At the same time, it's fine if people want to talk about the flaws of BW. It may want to be something separated into categories, though.

- the condition of Aiur, and what about other Protoss worlds besides Aiur and Shakuras?
- how the inclusion of the UED changed SC and why they haven't been back
- how in the world did Kerrigan convince Raynor and Fenix to go along with her ideas?
While the individual parts of BW sound nice, the whole is full of plot holes. Here are some reviews and parodies by other people:

https://superior-realities.com/2014/05/02/starcraft-im-just-going-to-say-it/
https://www.fanfiction.net/s/12563107/1/How-Brood-War-should-have-Ended and https://www.fanfiction.net/s/12316642/1/The-Choices-of-Emperor-Mengsk
https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/ua-plays-starcraft.243644/
http://www.samods.org/175 or http://www.game-weavers.com/?page_id=107
http://www.samods.org/195 or http://www.game-weavers.com/?page_id=140


Here are my complaints, in detail:

BW focuses more heavily on characters and their desires as opposed to the political spectrum of SC. Though SC, as its campaigns went on, began to shift from focusing on politics to focusing on characters, as shown by the plodding narratives of Episodes 2 and 3 compared to Episode 1 and the elevation of Kerry and Tass into messiahs of their respective factions. The problem with this is that Metzen simply is not good at writing convincing characters, so while the plot superficially appears to be character driven it is actually driven by the end plot Metzen wanted to tell. This results in the characters lacking real motivations and generally acting inconsistently and idiotically.

The technology and metaphysics of the setting are subject to retcons and plot holes, particularly in the case of the Protoss and Zerg. All of the major plot points, like the second Overmind and the xel’naga temple, are clear deus ex machinas. They appear without explanation, without precedent, without any way to be predicted, and steer the plot in the direction Metzen desired in defiance of verisimilitude.

The ending of Episode III is retconned to a Zerg victory. Despite the loss of the Overmind and numerous cerebrates, the remaining cerebrates are not only able to maintain their composure and cohesion, but become even more dangerous than before. Given the precedent set by Zasz in SC1, which resulted in the extermination of the Garm down to the last Zergling, they should be suffering from various deleterious effects like insanity, panic, and civil war.

The introduction of the second overmind trivializes the sacrifice require to kill the original at the end of Episode III. Its existence raises numerous questions about the nature of the hive mind. How did the Cerebrates know to create it? Why did the Zerg not create multiple Overminds as insurance? If the Overmind may be resurrected despite being slain by void magic, does that mean Cerebrates can too? If you merged some queens and overlords together, would they become a new cerebrate? How are cerebrates even created? Are they morphed from larvae like every other Zerg breed or do they have to be created by the Overmind? If there were no Cerebrates before the Overmind, how did the xel’naga create it? If the Overmind was originally created from scratch, why did the Cerebrates need to merge to create one? Could the Cerebrates have created a new Overmind from scratch? Could Cerebrates be created from scratch? Could Cerebrates create other Cerebrates? If the Overmind was originally a bodiless entity, why do all subsequent portrayals depict it as a physical entity? Why are Cerebrates embodied? Could they exist without bodies? It’s a huge can of worms that requires defining how the hierarchy of hive minds that runs the Zerg is actually structured, which canon has never done and thus we get inconsistent metaphysics.

Kerry’s ability to exert control over an arbitrarily high number of Zerg contradicts the explanations and numbers given in the original manual. The Zerg are a hierarchy of hive minds because it is difficult for a single mind to manage so many Zerg. The Overmind delegates tasks to cerebrates, who delegate tasks to queens and overlords, who give orders to individual Zerg. The Cerebrates are brain bugs, ripped right out of Starship Troopers. They are not warrior beasts like Kerry or the HotS cast, presumably because all that brain mass is required to manage their broods! Even then they have limits, as the largest single brood Tiamat is a paltry 6.5 million out of the “billions” of Zerg that make up the “innumerable” broods.

The Zerg commanders’ (Kerry and brain bug alike) newfound ability to reclaim feral Zerg appears without explanation. It was not possible for the Zerg to reclaim feral Zerg at the time of Zasz’s demise, forcing them to exterminate the Garm brood down to the last Zergling. This is clearly a retcon included solely to justify Kerry taking over the Zerg, which would otherwise be impossible.

Aldaris chose to start another civil war without explanation rather than tell everyone he suspected the Zerg had infiltrated the dark Templar. Speaking of which, there was no time for Kerrigan to have brainwashed Raszagal unless the Zerg simultaneously launched attacks on the Dark Templar at the same time they were assaulting Aiur. This would make strategic sense because the Protoss have warp gates which allow them to instantly travel between the many worlds of their empire and rapidly share military intelligence. Since the Dark Templar may destroy hive minds, they need to be distracted before they get involved in the conquest of Aiur. In SC1/BW, there’s no evidence the Protoss hold any planets other than Aiur and Shakuras.

The xel’naga temple and crystal keys are an obvious deus ex machina and macguffin. Their existence makes no sense: why would the xel’naga build a temple on Shakuras that can destroy Zerg (who did not exist at the time it was built), then send the two keys required to operate it to the boondocks of the galaxy? It would make far more sense as a terraforming device built by the Protoss before the Aeon of Strife, which had applications as a weapon of war (similar to the Dakara super weapon in Stargate SG-1). The crystal keys being hidden in remote locations would make sense if someone wanted to prevent the device from being misused that way, but for whatever reason refused to destroy these. The Protoss being unable to decrypt the password protection could be chalked up to their computers not being quick enough to do so before the Zerg overrun everything. In real world computer science, all encryption may be decrypted given sufficient time to go through all the possible encryption keys; the best encryption takes centuries to crack.

The UED is a retcon. In SC1, the K-sec was completely cut off from Earth. The Terrans lost the coordinates of Earth, Earth was not secretly watching them, etc. The UED takes away focus from the factions that already existed in the K-sec. In fact, the original manual introduced the Kel-Morians and Umojans as competitors to the Confederacy. The plot could have been identical with them instead and would not have required retcons or leaps of logic.

The invasion of the Dominion makes no sense. The Zerg had pretty much destroyed the infrastructure and economy of the K-sec for decades, maybe centuries to come. Yet we are expected to believe they have a functioning military that lasts more than a few hours against the UED and the Zerg in quick succession? Only if the K-sec was a cyberpunk dystopia with insane levels of industry and cloning! This is never explained and even if it was true it still clashes horribly with the space redneck aesthetic given previously and makes the K-sec look even more nightmarish than before.

DuGalle and Stukov’s actions are idiotic. DuGalle trusts Duran, who he outright states he distrusts for being a traitor, over his childhood friend. Stukov refuses to explain himself when he disobeys direct orders, which is a court-martial offense. DuGalle sends an assassin after Stukov, rather than calling a court-martial. Duran openly betrays the UED in front of their commander and probably dozens of other witnesses in the UED hierarchy, but nobody except Stukov remembers it.

Raynor allies with Kerry against the UED based on the assumption that the UED are space Nazis. This has two, maybe three, problems. Firstly, there’s no evidence the UED are space Nazis because their cast is culturally diverse (a Frenchman and a Russian, when the UPL made all languages other than English illegal) and they have ghosts (when the UPL was specifically exterminating all cyborgs and mutants, including psychics) and their goals are to overthrow the Dominion (which is a dictatorship run by a lunatic) and protect humanity against the much greater threats posed by the Zerg and Protoss (who have shown that they are an existential threat to humanity by consuming and glassing dozens of inhabited worlds and murdering untold billions). Secondly, Raynor is hick who grew up in the boondocks. There’s no way he has the education required to comprehend the horrors of the UPL’s racial purity crusade. Indeed, there’s the distinct possibility that such a thing is not taught in K-sec schools and is not widely known about (or even at all) considering it happened centuries ago and the ATLAS ships suffered severe corruption in their data banks. Thirdly, even if the UED were space nazis they are still vastly eclipsed by the threat of the Zerg and Protoss. The UED at least will spare everyone in the K-sec who has blue eyes and blonde hair, while the Zerg and the Protoss make no such distinction.

In general, everyone acts idiotically to let Kerry win. The original Zerg backstory, motivations and hierarchy is thrown aside in favor of QoB and Duran. QoB has no goals beyond a generic “take over the world” plot, which is bland and boring compared to the Overmind’s quest for perfection and universal conquest. Since she is not really a developed character, the writers use her to do whatever they need. Indeed, all of her military victories are the work of her pet Cerebrate.

Duran’s secret revelation of creating hybrids contradicts the Overmind’s stated goal in Episode II. The Zerg invaded Aiur with the intent of infesting and assimilating the Protoss, which would create hybrids automatically. All Zerg are hybrids of Zerg, their core genus and miscellaneous genes from other species. Duran even speaks in the same fanatical religious tone as the Overmind. While most of his ramblings could have easily been taken from the Overmind’s repertoire (considering that it elevates purity of form and essence into platonic ideals rather than the obviously arbitrary qualities they are in the original manual), his claim of serving a higher power that is not the Overmind makes no sense considering everything were told before that. The introduction of surviving xel’naga, a relic of the xel’naga, or another race entirely clashes with the faction politics that previously informed the setting and conflicts of SC. Like the UED, it takes the focus away from the existing factions. Zeratul’s surprise at the existence of hybrids makes no sense, since his mind meld with the Overmind should have already informed him this was the goal of the Zerg (if the infested Terrans were not already a huge tip off). Indeed, at the end of Episode III Tassadar gives a speech about how the Zerg will consume them and the universe if the Overmind is not stopped.

Everyone who thinks Brood War is a good story has a severe case of nostalgia goggles. Even if the dialogue sounds sensible in context, the story taken as a whole is nonsensical. Even the plot of Episode 2 still had a logical A-to-B progression, even if the last two missions feel like they came from a completely different campaign (which, considering the drafting process and rewrites, was probably the case).

See that? I just wrote a dozen paragraphs explaining the plot holes in Brood War. You know how much I could spend on StarCraft 1? This much:

Episode 2 and 3 suffers from severe pacing issues. Objectives that would have taken one mission in Episode 1 to resolve now take two or even three. The victories feel like they go in circles or repeated setbacks rather than building up the plot like the victories in Episode 1. You could cut the number of missions by half without losing track of the main plot thread!

Episode 2 introduces Kerry, plays her up as a messiah in the first eight missions, then forgets about her in missions nine and ten. She ultimately contributes nothing to the plot: her character is not used interestingly, her character arc from Episode 1 is not resolved, and as a unit within the campaign she may be ignored without making any difference (except her personal fight with Tass, which is an objective) because everything is done by the player character cerebrate. The plot of Episode 2 would be improved by replacing her with an army of psychic infested terrans who are actually instrumental in the war against the Protoss, game balance be damned.

Episode 3 does not really explain or resolve the heresy and civil war. The Judicator's dislike for the Dark Templar is never explained in the game itself, so they come off as moronic racists more interested in hunting heretics than fighting a war against galactic space monsters! The civil war is resolved far too quickly, with the Judicators just giving up after a couple of missions rather than really being convinced.

Part of the problems with Episodes 2 and 3 seems to be that the campaigns were written to follow a specific set of mandates. The writers seemingly had inordinate difficulty forcing the alien campaigns to conform, resulting in convoluted narratives compared to the simplicity of Episode 1. As far as I can tell, these mandates were:

each campaign from the POV of a specific race. This is probably the most constricting mandate, as it directly interfered with implementing the others.
fight against every race. In EP1 this was easy because the Terrans had civil strife, the Zerg were invading, and the Protoss were trying to halt the spread of the Zerg at the cost of human lives. In EP2 this required psychic dreams to lure Terrans to fight and a brood going feral to fight Zerg. In EP3 this required the executor to visit Char and fight the Terrans, since without the Zerg invading K-sec they had no reason to fight the Terrans anymore.
change planet twice. This felt organic in Episode 1 and played into the raising of the stakes over the campaign. In Episode 2, the transition from Char to Aiur coincides with a complete drop of the previous plot threads, most of which are not picked up until Episode 3. In Episode 3, the first and third planets are the same (Aiur).
space platform and installation maps. These feel forced in Episodes 2 and 3 and contribute to the plodding narrative. In fact, the Amerigo mission is redundant because the Zerg already took the Ghost Academy on Tarsonis. In Episode 3 these maps are part of the second planet arc and the hunt for Tassadar.
a cameo from Raynor, Duke and Tassadar (and possibly Kerry?). EP1 broke this mandate by cutting the mission in which Tassadar made a cameo. In EP2, Tassadar claims to have met Kerry even though this never happened (not even in the cut mission!). The inclusion of Raynor and Duke feels forced in Episode 2, requiring the plot device of psychic dreams because otherwise Terrans would not be involved. Their inclusion in Episode 3 remains equally forced, and Duke appears only to justify PvT.
align at least loosely with the cinematics, which were made before the script was finished. The Terran cinematics were often unrelated, but the Zerg and Protoss cinematics were almost always tied to the mission they appeared next to even when it needlessly complicated the plot (often in tandem with other mandates).


You may notice a pattern here: the writing in Starcraft gets progressively worse and convoluted with every installment. The writers changed with every installment: BW was the first time Metzen worked alone, and SC2 was written by three teams loosely headed by Metzen.

[Nissa]

Holy hell, Magmags. I wasn't saying BW isn't flawed, I was saying that it still feels like Starcraft despite those flaws. Sheesh.

Anyway, some more topics that would potentially suit a podcast:
- what makes a character good or bad?
- has an opinion of a character changed due to SC2? (eg Aldaris seems suddenly far more amazing)
- favorite/least favorite units
- what role could the Terrans serve in a Starcraft sequel, since most of the important plot points only concern Zerg/'Toss?
- the SC novels and why they were bad/not so bad (I hesitate to call any of them genuinely good).
- A discussion of all the retcons/poor decisions of the "Dark Templar" trilogy
- Enslavers and other post-BW, pre-SC2 downloadables
- Fanfiction!

[Mislagnissa]

Holy hell, Magmags. I wasn't saying BW isn't flawed, I was saying that it still feels like Starcraft despite those flaws. Sheesh.I did say that the dialogue seemingly made sense in context. The interface may be Starcraft, but the story does not feel like Starcraft to me because of all the sweeping, pointless changes to the setting. Brood War is not a logical continuation of SC1.


- what role could the Terrans serve in a Starcraft sequel, since most of the important plot points only concern Zerg/'Toss?None. SC1 specifically made Terran psychic powers vital to the Zerg because otherwise there would be no reason to include them. With Metzen at the helm, this plot point was forgotten and replaced with far less interesting ones like Kerry wanting power, or the UED wanting to halt an existential threat (although with the Zerg losing their original motive, the UED's plan is unnecessary since the Zerg have no reason to interact with other races ever again), or Duran/Amon creating hybrids despite this being the Zerg's original goal and forcing the Zerg into good guys. Without the Zerg trying to eat the Protoss and requiring the Terrans to do it (necessitating eating them too), there's absolutely no reason for the three races to ever interact with one another.

This is obviously the case in SC2. The Nova DLC has a forced plot where an entirely new faction, the Defenders of Man, are introduced specifically to give a reason to interact with the Protoss and Zerg. They steal from the Tal'darim, drawing Alarak into the plot. They use psi-emitters to lure Zerg, drawing Zerg into the plot. Without the Defenders of Man attracting the attention of Zerg and Protoss for questionable gain, those two races would never interact with Nova. The Niadra comic is much more blunt: Niadra is only interacting with the Protoss at all because she has an irrational directive to destroy them and has no self-awareness or foresight, and the Terrans only because they are physically in the way.

Introducing a new faction to force a conflict that would not otherwise occur is the exact same premise as Brood War and Starcraft 2. Every game has killed off their villain only for another one to crawl out of the woodwork in the next game. This is what Starcraft has been reduced to: a villain of the week series little different from Saturday morning cartoons like Dragonball Z or Sailor Moon. At least SM had the good sense to introduce a bigger bad at the end who was retroactively responsible for every antagonist in the series.

That is why I advocate rebooting the series from the original manual's premise that the Zerg are and will always be the main antagonist and plot mover in their quest for perfection. Even if you pretend that SC3 will not make so many retcons that the setting will become unrecognizable yet again, the UED is the only remaining faction that is able to carry the same narrative weight as previous big bad evil guys like the Overmind and Amon. Again, this is because the three races have absolutely no reason to ever interact with the Overmind and Amon dead because they were the only guys advocating any interaction (albeit violent).


- the SC novels and why they were bad/not so bad (I hesitate to call any of them genuinely good). Yeah, they're not exactly good. They do provide some interesting context left out of the games, like the Antigan Revolt lasting six months or so in the Nova novel (before the DC comic retconned it to a month and a half for no apparent reason). The Uprising novel introduced the forgotten plot point that Kerry killed Mengsk's family, although it portrayed them both as nutjobs (Mengsk kills the two ghosts who helped Kerry while stating they are innocent by virtue of brainwashing in front of Kerry, then he tells her his sob story, then he tells her that he forgives her, and she is insane enough to believe him despite his actions showing he is clearly a nutcase who thinks that brainwashed victims should be held accountable for the actions of their superiors). The Liberty's Crusade novel mentions that the Confederacy's experiments on Zerg including reading Zerg minds (which was painful, and the origin of the name "Zerg"), mentioned that Confederate intelligence extracted from Zerg minds claimed that the Protoss were space nazis (I think the novel was written before the game script was finalized), suggested that the Protoss hailed the Confederacy (presumably warning them to evacuate) but the Confederacy covered it up, and some other details which clarify major plot points in Episode 1.

The Queen of Blades novel is embarrassingly bad. It portrays Episode 2 from Raynor's perspective and uses the silly plot device of psychic dreams to let him listen in on the Zerg briefings, which he tells the Protoss about and allows them to outmaneuver the Zerg. Not only that, but Zasz is portrayed as a complete moron who allows Zeratul to get within melee range on the basis that Zeratul will whisper the secret weakness of Kerry in his ear. (This despite Zasz being stated as the cleverest cerebrate in the manual, being responsible for intelligence gathering in the game, and being completely justified in complaining about Kerry given her later actions.)

I am glad we never got an adaptation of Episode 3, because it probably would have been horrible.


- A discussion of all the retcons/poor decisions of the "Dark Templar" trilogyGolden worked with what they got, which was an unstable foundation that went nowhere. All of the retcons that Golden made are irrelevant as they were ignored in SC2. Characters with the same names appear in both, but they are not the same characters. Golden is the only writer who remembered Ulrezaj from that obscure online map.

[Turalyon]

Gotta watch those wall-o-texts with Nissa, Misla. She has a phobia of them - all because of me apparently.

[Nissa]

Not because of you, I just don't like them in general because I don't like to spend a lot of time typing up stuff in an online argument. Ugh. One time I was responding to a post by Econ, and he posted AGAIN with another textwall while I was still typing, then got mad at me for "ignoring" his second post.

Y'all can argue about stuff, but honestly, SC isn't at the point where I enjoy too long of discussions anymore, especially when the other person seems aggressive about the subject at hand. Honestly, if we do a podcast, I want there to be a rule where people have to be calm and not talk over one another. I hate both participating and listening to that kind of podcast.

The trouble, Mags, is that the Terrans NEED a role, because Starcraft is about three races in conflict. The only way Terrans don't need a role is if the game changes from RTS to something else. RTSs require races with more or less equal motive to participate.

[Nissa]

Eh, double post, but I thought of another topic. All the undefined things in Starcraft:

- The Khala
- Dark Templar belief/philosophy
- The DT's complaints against the Khala, and why they went to the extent of maiming themselves.
- The Khaydarin crystals
- The hybrids

And because none of these things were properly defined, the whole story of Starcraft suffered as a result.

[ragnarok]

I'm curious, Nissa: just what did you believe the hybrids would be used for prior to Blizzard announcing SC2? Since most people back then already theorized they'd be used as weapons anyway, but what else?

[Nissa]

I didn't know. It's honestly Blizzard painting themselves in a corner: obviously the hybrids are a crazy idea, but how does one make that idea live up to its hype? How can a hybrid be truly scary, without being just another "let's kill everybody in the universe" thing?

[Mislagnissa]

Not because of you, I just don't like them in general because I don't like to spend a lot of time typing up stuff in an online argument. Ugh. One time I was responding to a post by Econ, and he posted AGAIN with another textwall while I was still typing, then got mad at me for "ignoring" his second post.

Y'all can argue about stuff, but honestly, SC isn't at the point where I enjoy too long of discussions anymore, especially when the other person seems aggressive about the subject at hand. Honestly, if we do a podcast, I want there to be a rule where people have to be calm and not talk over one another. I hate both participating and listening to that kind of podcast.

The trouble, Mags, is that the Terrans NEED a role, because Starcraft is about three races in conflict. The only way Terrans don't need a role is if the game changes from RTS to something else. RTSs require races with more or less equal motive to participate.

The Terrans did have a role. They were as a species literally "the determinant" in the coming Zerg/Protoss War. They would have to defend themselves against the Zerg, who wanted their psychic potential and would certainly leave no survivors to pose a threat later. Forgetting this vital detail is part of what ruined the series.

This is why a reboot is necessary. Otherwise every new installment with introduce a new main antagonist out of the woodwork like a season of Sailor Moon or Dragonball Z.

[ragnarok]

I didn't know. It's honestly Blizzard painting themselves in a corner: obviously the hybrids are a crazy idea, but how does one make that idea live up to its hype? How can a hybrid be truly scary, without being just another "let's kill everybody in the universe" thing?

That's just the problem with Amon: the whole "remaking all creation in my own image" has been an overused concept. By 2010, this concept could only work if you give a justified reason (hence the reason I had hoped to learn more about his past). Without such a reason, it's just a cheap excuse to make a nihilistic villain.

[Mislagnissa]

That's just the problem with Amon: the whole "remaking all creation in my own image" has been an overused concept. By 2010, this concept could only work if you give a justified reason (hence the reason I had hoped to learn more about his past). Without such a reason, it's just a cheap excuse to make a nihilistic villain.

The Zerg originally had this exact same goal (before BW and SC2 neutered them even worse than Voyager neutered the Borg), except they were not laughable idiots like every other villain who wants to literally blow up the world. The Zerg portrayed themselves as heroes bringing perfection to all, led by a loving father not unlike Papa Nurgle from Warhammer 40k (in fact, that's probably where Blizz got the idea in the first place: they combined Nurgle and Tyranids). It played into the moral relativity that made the factions stand out from one another and from other RTS games. What really sold the concept to me was Metzen's surprisingly genius idea to model their speech patterns after the King James Bible and Shakespeare, making them sound like more sophisticated and eloquent than you would expect alien locusts to be. We never needed to introduce Amon or the UED: the Zerg were already sufficient as a villain.

Alas, that sort of creativity and complexity does not fly in today's cultural wasteland.

[ragnarok]

The Zerg originally had this exact same goal (before BW and SC2 neutered them even worse than Voyager neutered the Borg), except they were not laughable idiots like every other villain who wants to literally blow up the world. The Zerg portrayed themselves as heroes bringing perfection to all, led by a loving father not unlike Papa Nurgle from Warhammer 40k (in fact, that's probably where Blizz got the idea in the first place: they combined Nurgle and Tyranids). It played into the moral relativity that made the factions stand out from one another and from other RTS games. What really sold the concept to me was Metzen's surprisingly genius idea to model their speech patterns after the King James Bible and Shakespeare, making them sound like more sophisticated and eloquent than you would expect alien locusts to be. We never needed to introduce Amon or the UED: the Zerg were already sufficient as a villain.

Alas, that sort of creativity and complexity does not fly in today's cultural wasteland.

I can see your point in that it's merely part of their culture (despite the fact I still wanted it to change). To some I spoke to, they tried comparing it to the Alien series with the Xenomorphs: it's not that they're evil, they do what they do because it's part of their life cycle

[Mislagnissa]

I can see your point in that it's merely part of their culture (despite the fact I still wanted it to change).

Change to what? When the original motivation of your species is to conquer the universe and bring perfection to all, there is nowhere to go but down.

[ragnarok]

Change to what? When the original motivation of your species is to conquer the universe and bring perfection to all, there is nowhere to go but down.

That is nothing but a cheap excuse for a nihilistic villain. In many ways even back in 1998 I felt this was flat on the zerg's part

[Mislagnissa]

That is nothing but a cheap excuse for a nihilistic villain. In many ways even back in 1998 I felt this was flat on the zerg's part

Nihilistic?! That word does not mean what you think it means. Nihilism is "the rejection of all religious and moral principles, often in the belief that life is meaningless."

The Zerg are the exact opposite of nihilistic. They have an alien religion and moral principles based on their evolution and consumption of everything before them. They want to achieve perfection, not only for themselves but for everyone in the universe they are planning to eat. They were even styled loosely after Christianity, and I doubt any Christian would call themselves nihilistic.

Thank you for destroying your own credibility in one fell swoop. Now I know never to take your arguments seriously.

[ragnarok]

Nihilistic?! That word does not mean what you think it means. Nihilism is "the rejection of all religious and moral principles, often in the belief that life is meaningless."

The Zerg are the exact opposite of nihilistic. They have an alien religion and moral principles based on their evolution and consumption of everything before them. They want to achieve perfection, not only for themselves but for everyone in the universe they are planning to eat. They were even styled loosely after Christianity, and I doubt any Christian would call themselves nihilistic.


You want to compare them to the whole White Man's burden during those colonial expansion times?

[Mislagnissa]

You want to compare them to the whole White Man's burden during those colonial expansion times?

Really? You invoke Godwin's law? Do you not realize that erodes your argument further?

The Zerg eat people. They eat souls! That's not comparable to anything from human history.

[ragnarok]

Really? You invoke Godwin's law? Do you not realize that erodes your argument further?

The Zerg eat people. They eat souls! That's not comparable to anything from human history.

Not eat souls LITERALLY. You need to remember that only a few hundred years ago, there was the whole "The bible clearly stated it was the white man's destiny to rule the world." Thus if you look at colonial expansion, the indigenous people's culture, religion, etc are altered by that of the white man. And unlike today where at the very least people would say if you're not going to leave those things alone, it's better to have a mix of the two, back then you have the white man FORCING their ideals onto the indigenous people, saying that everything they have is superior.

I considered this a "taint" on the indigenous people's souls, and you can consider it a contamination of their purity, in a way.

[Robear]

Just btw, manifest destiny and the white man's burden are two related but different things. This (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/12/American_progress.JPG) is manifest destiny (mildly racist political cartoon of darkness, native americans and wild animals being driven out by white american settlers bringing agriculture and infrastructure), this (http://56.media.tumblr.com/10084f8af406fb5e4d67902abb0e3b48/tumblr_ml9jfwi3ai1soojlzo1_1280.png) is the white man's burden (very racist political cartoon of the US and Britain laboring incredibly hard to carry nonwhite races in their empires towards 'civilization' at their own expense). Manifest destiny is also supremacist but the white man's burden has that paternalistic racism where it's a burden that white people have taken up out of the goodness of their hearts because it's the humane thing to do. At least manifest destiny is just like 'it's our god-given right so we'll do whatever we want,' instead of pretending it was a good thing.

If we're comparing them to Starcraft now I would say that the Protoss empire is more manifest destiny-ish, with their casual willingness to eliminate the terrans and their worlds, and their idea of Protoss supremacy. I don't think Zerg are analogous to either.

But also I don't recommend making these comparisons in a podcast.

[ragnarok]

Just btw, manifest destiny and the white man's burden are two related but different things. This (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/12/American_progress.JPG) is manifest destiny (mildly racist political cartoon of darkness, native americans and wild animals being driven out by white american settlers bringing agriculture and infrastructure), this (http://56.media.tumblr.com/10084f8af406fb5e4d67902abb0e3b48/tumblr_ml9jfwi3ai1soojlzo1_1280.png) is the white man's burden (very racist political cartoon of the US and Britain laboring incredibly hard to carry nonwhite races in their empires towards 'civilization' at their own expense). Manifest destiny is also supremacist but the white man's burden has that paternalistic racism where it's a burden that white people have taken up out of the goodness of their hearts because it's the humane thing to do. At least manifest destiny is just like 'it's our god-given right so we'll do whatever we want,' instead of pretending it was a good thing.

If we're comparing them to Starcraft now I would say that the Protoss empire is more manifest destiny-ish, with their casual willingness to eliminate the terrans and their worlds, and their idea of Protoss supremacy. I don't think Zerg are analogous to either.

But also I don't recommend making these comparisons in a podcast.

It's only a shame the whole manifest destiny and white man's burden tends to get blurred in too many fictional stories. Sometimes the worst things done were done with the best intents at heart

[Turalyon]

If we're comparing them to Starcraft now I would say that the Protoss empire is more manifest destiny-ish, with their casual willingness to eliminate the terrans and their worlds, and their idea of Protoss supremacy. I don't think Zerg are analogous to either.

Very interesting! I would tend to think the Protoss are less manifest destiny-ish because of their Dae-Uhl - their desire to not infere with lesser species - and actually have a slight bit of the "white man's burden" about them since they do this for the lesser races own good and that they do so only if its under their auspices/diligence. I'm sure the Conclave would've bemoaned how the "lesser" races under their care are ungrateful and disparage their activities - like they do the Terrans when they first encountered them.

The Zerg are very much so about manifest destiny when you consider the Overmind's motivations and religious overtones.

[ragnarok]

Very interesting! I would tend to think the Protoss are less manifest destiny-ish because of their Dae-Uhl - their desire to not infere with lesser species - and actually have a slight bit of the "white man's burden" about them since they do this for the lesser races own good and that they do so only if its under their auspices/diligence. I'm sure the Conclave would've bemoaned how the "lesser" races under their care are ungrateful and disparage their activities - like they do the Terrans when they first encountered them.

The Zerg are very much so about manifest destiny when you consider the Overmind's motivations and religious overtones.

I didn't think it was the Dae-Uhl, Tura. Back in SC1 you could easily see the Protoss' arrogance in thinking they knew everything and all the other species were so beneath them, like nothing more than mindless animals. It's not like the Protoss even gave a damn about the terrans anyway. This still held true by the time of SC2, as they simply weren't interested in terran affairs.

On the Zerg side, it wasn't so much as god-given right, but more that (via the SC1 lore) the Overmind felt that since he killed and assimilated the Xel'Naga, they were false gods and he was the true god, and that meant as an omnipotent being he was entitled to do whatever the hell he wanted

[Mislagnissa]

Very interesting! I would tend to think the Protoss are less manifest destiny-ish because of their Dae-Uhl - their desire to not infere with lesser species - and actually have a slight bit of the "white man's burden" about them since they do this for the lesser races own good and that they do so only if its under their auspices/diligence. I'm sure the Conclave would've bemoaned how the "lesser" races under their care are ungrateful and disparage their activities - like they do the Terrans when they first encountered them.

The Zerg are very much so about manifest destiny when you consider the Overmind's motivations and religious overtones.I thought the Dae'Uhl was based on Star Trek's prime directive to some degree. It is not a direct comparison, since the Judicators are still enormous racists who think nothing of casually glassing inhabited planets and never got put on trial for their war crimes. #PurifiedLivesMatter #JusticeForChauSara #KillTheJudicators


I didn't think it was the Dae-Uhl, Tura. Back in SC1 you could easily see the Protoss' arrogance in thinking they knew everything and all the other species were so beneath them, like nothing more than mindless animals. It's not like the Protoss even gave a damn about the terrans anyway. This still held true by the time of SC2, as they simply weren't interested in terran affairs.

On the Zerg side, it wasn't so much as god-given right, but more that (via the SC1 lore) the Overmind felt that since he killed and assimilated the Xel'Naga, they were false gods and he was the true god, and that meant as an omnipotent being he was entitled to do whatever the hell he wantedHow did you possibly get that impression? The Zerg were quite aware they were not omnipotent or godly, as shown by their fear of the Protoss and their desire for perfection. They were not entitled to do whatever they wanted or that the xel'naga were false gods or anything of that sort: the Zerg were driven by the drives the xel'naga had instilled upon them by manipulating their evolution, and their culture arose organically from that.

All three factions are monstrous, but believe themselves to be good and have redeeming qualities. If you cannot appreciate that the morality of Starcraft was ambiguous before all the stupid retcons you apparently cherish as gospel, then you have no place arguing about about the morality of the races.

[ragnarok]

How did you possibly get that impression? The Zerg were quite aware they were not omnipotent or godly, as shown by their fear of the Protoss and their desire for perfection. They were not entitled to do whatever they wanted or that the xel'naga were false gods or anything of that sort: the Zerg were driven by the drives the xel'naga had instilled upon them by manipulating their evolution, and their culture arose organically from that.

All three factions are monstrous, but believe themselves to be good and have redeeming qualities. If you cannot appreciate that the morality of Starcraft was ambiguous before all the stupid retcons you apparently cherish as gospel, then you have no place arguing about about the morality of the races.

The Xel'Naga did not manipulate their evolution. The manual specifically said that after the Xel'Naga helped them survive Zerus's harsh environment, they just let the swarm evolve on its own. Unless of course you're suggesting merely watching over them like that qualifies as evolution manipulation.

Now, for the whole ambiguity part, I'm not here to suggestion a black and white picture, but you don't make it so that it's intentionally left so vague that no matter what happens in the end you have to decide for yourself who's good and who's evil. But then again, I haven't seen enough of those types of stories myself, maybe they're not as bad.

[Turalyon]

The Xel'Naga did not manipulate their evolution. The manual specifically said that after the Xel'Naga helped them survive Zerus's harsh environment

"How to lose all your credibility in a matter seconds", by Rag.

[Nissa]

Aaaaaand to steer this ship back on its course, Undead, why don't you tell us what you really want to talk about on a podcast?

[Undeadprotoss]

Honestly, I kind of want it to be a post-mortem-machine. We talk about what didn't work in the SC2 trilogy, why, what could it have been going for instead. We compare that to things that did work back in the day with less technology. Explain that, despite Kerrigan being in a murderous frenzy in both HOTS and Brood War, her role in the former is much more engaging and interesting. I truly believe that Blizzard will change given enough feedback, but the podcast should exist regardless of that.

It should be a vehicle of catharsis. We articulate the intangibles of what made the original great, what was lacking in the trilogy, what we wish we had, etc. It's point is to assert control over something we otherwise don't have any say in.

[Mislagnissa]

It should be a vehicle of catharsis. We articulate the intangibles of what made the original great, what was lacking in the trilogy, what we wish we had, etc. It's point is to assert control over something we otherwise don't have any say in.
Do custom campaigns not count? Some dude wrote a book (see my sig) outlining the backdrop for a shared universe based on the Starcraft lore, hoping that map makers might decide to adopt it. The benefit of custom campaigns is that they are not beholden to the trials that result in triple-A games having laughably bad stories. The onus is on us, the fans.


Honestly, I kind of want it to be a post-mortem-machine. We talk about what didn't work in the SC2 trilogy, why, what could it have been going for instead. We compare that to things that did work back in the day with less technology. Explain that, despite Kerrigan being in a murderous frenzy in both HOTS and Brood War, her role in the former is much more engaging and interesting. I truly believe that Blizzard will change given enough feedback, but the podcast should exist regardless of that.

Please take off the nostalgia goggles. The problem with existing Starcraft lore is that every campaign after Rebel Yell has massive narrative problems. Ignoring Starcraft 2 will not change that. I just spent a dozen paragraphs explaining this earlier, if anyone forgot. Brood War does not lend itself to sequels. A logical follow up would just be Kerry and Duran (and maybe the UED) duking it out for control, with the K-sec Terrans and Protoss sitting on the sidelines because they have no military. At the end everyone dies, and there's no possibility for a Starcraft 3.

As a Zerg fan, I hate Kerry with the burning intensity of a billion suns. Not only does she pull her control of Zerg out of her ass, she succeeds only through retcons and author fiat, she kills off the Zerg hierarchy on the flimsiest of pretenses, she abandons the quest for perfection, she claims the asshole of the universe as her personal fief, and she has no vision for the future or any higher purpose in life. She's not even a character, she's Metzen's plot device.

Metzen tainted Starcraft and Brood War with his terrible writing, and there's no doubt in my mind that James Phinney was solely responsible for all the good writing at the beginning. We need to revise everything if we want a decent story. That means aborting QoB and ignoring Brood War, because those are Metzen's bullshit. Heresy of the highest order, I know, but it's the right decision. (Again, see my sig.)

[Gradius]

Campaigns don’t count because they’re not canon and don’t reach a shred of the amount of people the original game does.

[Mislagnissa]

Campaigns don’t count because they’re not canon and don’t reach a shred of the amount of people the original game does.1) the canon is a moving ball of tangled yarn, which the posters in this very thread disagree over how much to discard and rewrite. I think the series needs rebooting, while others want BW2. Seriously, Kerry got an award in a magazine for greatest villain despite being a fan fiction tier villain sue. 2) Heroes of the Storm started out as a mod for Starcraft 2, and eventually became so popular it was made into its own game. Starcraft Universe, another mod which takes place in an alternate universe, got funded on kickstarter. Also, how many people play the campaigns as opposed to multiplayer?

Regardless of our personal opinions on the matter, caving into nostalgia makes no sense from a marketing perspective. WoL is now free to play and will be new players' first introduction to the lore. Producing DLC (because there's no way SC3 will not be DLC) taking place in an alternate universe, which requires playing SCR to understand (assuming it's a sequel rather than a reboot), will only confuse consumers. Any DLC, whether sequel or reboot or whatever, will inevitably suck because Blizzard cannot write worth a darn.

Properly scaled, Starcraft offers the backdrop for countless campaigns during a period of galactic war between three races with numerous factions a la Warhammer 40k. Any campaign by Blizzard will not only ignore this massive scale, it will make a couple of characters like Raynor or Kerry literally the center of the universe, because Blizzard cannot write. They aren't Games Workshop, who have a huge multimedia franchise in Warhammer 40k which is so huge that Amon's so-called "End War" would be considered a rounding error.

Am I arguing that Starcraft should be more like Warhammer 40k, where individual characters like Kerry and Raynor are ants in the grand scheme of things? Yes! A thousand times yes!

[Turalyon]

We talk about what didn't work in the SC2 trilogy, why, what could it have been going for instead. We compare that to things that did work back in the day with less technology.

I think what makes the original stick in the memory in a positive way (as opposed to being more negative when it comes to Sc2) is more to do with it relying on "less is more", which was probably due to the limits of technology, capability and the timing/time (I think this is the biggest influence) in which it was released. Incidentally, what worked against Sc2 was its timing, too. It was too late from the first iteration and people had moved on or that they expected more/a measure of progress having grown up since it was released. Whilst the technological side of things have improved, you can also comment on how this also fed into greater expectations with the delivery of the story. One can also potentially comment on all the visuals, whilst being technically better, perhaps being something that was also responsible for deadening the feel of the story. Can there be too much of a good thing (ie: eye candy) and can that detract from delivering the story they wanted to tell?


Regardless of our personal opinions on the matter, caving into nostalgia makes no sense from a marketing perspective.

You gotta be kidding me. Nostalgia is definitely marketable and a major reason how reboots and sequels (no matter how late they come after the initial piece) gain any traction at all. It's all due to trying to recapture or ride off the thrill of something earlier because it's much harder to come up with something new and the risk of people not liking it at all is greater than compared to a known target audience.


Am I arguing that Starcraft should be more like Warhammer 40k, where individual characters like Kerry and Raynor are ants in the grand scheme of things? Yes! A thousand times yes!

Why bother? Just stick with WH40k then. I don't need something to ape something else when I can/do already enjoy that something else.

[Gradius]

1) the canon is a moving ball of tangled yarn, which the posters in this very thread disagree over how much to discard and rewrite. I think the series needs rebooting, while others want BW2. Seriously, Kerry got an award in a magazine for greatest villain despite being a fan fiction tier villain sue. 2) Heroes of the Storm started out as a mod for Starcraft 2, and eventually became so popular it was made into its own game. Starcraft Universe, another mod which takes place in an alternate universe, got funded on kickstarter. Also, how many people play the campaigns as opposed to multiplayer?

Regardless of our personal opinions on the matter, caving into nostalgia makes no sense from a marketing perspective. WoL is now free to play and will be new players' first introduction to the lore. Producing DLC (because there's no way SC3 will not be DLC) taking place in an alternate universe, which requires playing SCR to understand (assuming it's a sequel rather than a reboot), will only confuse consumers. Any DLC, whether sequel or reboot or whatever, will inevitably suck because Blizzard cannot write worth a darn.

Properly scaled, Starcraft offers the backdrop for countless campaigns during a period of galactic war between three races with numerous factions a la Warhammer 40k. Any campaign by Blizzard will not only ignore this massive scale, it will make a couple of characters like Raynor or Kerry literally the center of the universe, because Blizzard cannot write. They aren't Games Workshop, who have a huge multimedia franchise in Warhammer 40k which is so huge that Amon's so-called "End War" would be considered a rounding error.

Am I arguing that Starcraft should be more like Warhammer 40k, where individual characters like Kerry and Raynor are ants in the grand scheme of things? Yes! A thousand times yes!
Heroes of the Storm was a Blizzard project the whole time. StarCraft Universe is cool, but it's an alternate reality based on the SC2 canon we all hate so much, and again, still didn't reach a shred of the amount of people that SC2 has.

But again, I don't really disagree with you, as I've wanted a reboot forever. And yes, custom campaigns are awesome, I want more of them, but SC2 is now the core product and that's never going to change without a reboot. I pretty much believe the SC universe is tainted on a meta level.

[Mislagnissa]

After thinking it over, I suppose a soft reboot that cashes on nostalgia is not out of the question. It would be really clumsy and full of retcons, but it is possible to revert the status quo back to the beginning of SC1 (more or less) and go in a more satisfying narrative direction that focuses on the faction politics and moral ambiguity that made Starcraft great in the first place.

[Gradius]

Please take off the nostalgia goggles. The problem with existing Starcraft lore is that every campaign after Rebel Yell has massive narrative problems.
Meh. Episode 2 and 3 were perfectly fine. The narrative wasn't perfect, but the worldbuilding was decent. It set up a good world for sequels to build off of. It was hard to screw up, but Blizzard somehow managed.



Episode 2 and 3 suffers from severe pacing issues. Objectives that would have taken one mission in Episode 1 to resolve now take two or even three. The victories feel like they go in circles or repeated setbacks rather than building up the plot like the victories in Episode 1. You could cut the number of missions by half without losing track of the main plot thread!
It's slower yes, but being "slow" is not a pacing issue. It's a pacing issue if it loses your interest and becomes unplayable because it's too slow or too fast, which doesn't really happen. That's how real life works, sometimes a lot happens all at once, sometimes not much happens.



Episode 2 introduces Kerry, plays her up as a messiah in the first eight missions, then forgets about her in missions nine and ten. She ultimately contributes nothing to the plot: her character is not used interestingly, her character arc from Episode 1 is not resolved, and as a unit within the campaign she may be ignored without making any difference (except her personal fight with Tass, which is an objective) because everything is done by the player character cerebrate. The plot of Episode 2 would be improved by replacing her with an army of psychic infested terrans who are actually instrumental in the war against the Protoss, game balance be damned.
How is her character not used interestingly? She's used as a commander against the protoss, and then is left behind to hunt down dark templar because that's literally her job and they are the only beings who are a threat to the Overmind. Then the epilogue text wraps up her arc.



Episode 3 does not really explain or resolve the heresy and civil war.
Yes it does. Aldaris admits he was wrong.



The Judicator's dislike for the Dark Templar is never explained in the game itself, so they come off as moronic racists more interested in hunting heretics than fighting a war against galactic space monsters!
The reason is that it's their law and religion. Dumb laws and religion exist in real life, and so do racists. This whole arc was an on-point commentary about religion.


And Aldaris believes they have corrupted one of his best commanders. He tried to listen to them by authorizing the attack on the cerebrate, but it failed and only reinforced Aldaris's racism.



The civil war is resolved far too quickly, with the Judicators just giving up after a couple of missions rather than really being convinced.
They were all killed, which is what was implied by Raynor asking if they'll bring reinforcements in "Eye of the Storm" and then they never do.



Part of the problems with Episodes 2 and 3 seems to be that the campaigns were written to follow a specific set of mandates. The writers seemingly had inordinate difficulty forcing the alien campaigns to conform, resulting in convoluted narratives compared to the simplicity of Episode 1. As far as I can tell, these mandates were:
each campaign from the POV of a specific race. This is probably the most constricting mandate, as it directly interfered with implementing the others.
fight against every race. In EP1 this was easy because the Terrans had civil strife, the Zerg were invading, and the Protoss were trying to halt the spread of the Zerg at the cost of human lives. In EP2 this required psychic dreams to lure Terrans to fight and a brood going feral to fight Zerg. In EP3 this required the executor to visit Char and fight the Terrans, since without the Zerg invading K-sec they had no reason to fight the Terrans anymore.
change planet twice. This felt organic in Episode 1 and played into the raising of the stakes over the campaign. In Episode 2, the transition from Char to Aiur coincides with a complete drop of the previous plot threads, most of which are not picked up until Episode 3. In Episode 3, the first and third planets are the same (Aiur). These feel forced in Episodes 2 and 3 and contribute to the plodding narrative.
space platform and installation maps.
I really don't see the problem. Yeah it's slow, but the dialog is also pretty damn minimal. It's the gameplay that takes a long time, but you know, StarCraft is a game and that's kind of the whole point.



In fact, the Amerigo mission is redundant because the Zerg already took the Ghost Academy on Tarsonis.
That's a real stretch. Obviously what they wanted was in terran science vessels, not the Ghost Academy. Or, the science vessel was just closer and more expedient to sabotage since they were already in conflict.



In EP2, Tassadar claims to have met Kerry even though this never happened (not even in the cut mission!).
So? There's a lot of things that happened in universe that we probably didn't see. Again, minimal dialog. This was 1998.



The inclusion of Raynor and Duke feels forced in Episode 2, requiring the plot device of psychic dreams because otherwise Terrans would not be involved. Their inclusion in Episode 3 remains equally forced, and Duke appears only to justify PvT.
align at least loosely with the cinematics, which were made before the script was finished.
Episode 2? I mean I agree that the dream was kind of dumb, but this seems subjective, especially since we have psychics and mind-readers in the setting anyway. Episode 3? Not really. Tassadar and Raynor both fought the zerg in the last campaign so it's only logical they'd team up. Duke, yeah sure, whatever. It's not like he has some huge effect on the narrative. I'm pretty sure it's also possible to not run into him and trigger his attack anyway.



The Terran cinematics were often unrelated, but the Zerg and Protoss cinematics were almost always tied to the mission they appeared next to even when it needlessly complicated the plot (often in tandem with other mandates).
Really? Most people complain the opposite, that the cinematics have little to do with the plot. The biggest problem is that the return to aiur cinematic was put into the wrong spot.


I agree that BW sucks because James Phinney left, but it wasn't that bad for video games. The drama was still superior to SC2.

[Mislagnissa]

Meh. Episode 2 and 3 were perfectly fine. The narrative wasn't perfect, but the worldbuilding was decent. It set up a good world for sequels to build off of. It was hard to screw up, but Blizzard somehow managed.You give Blizzard too much credit. I enjoyed them when I was a child, but as an adult I am embarrassed by how bad they are regardless of technical limitations. I think the plot has loads of room for improvement in a remake or reboot, assuming we hire competent writers and don't blow the budget on fancy graphics.


It's slower yes, but being "slow" is not a pacing issue. It's a pacing issue if it loses your interest and becomes unplayable because it's too slow or too fast, which doesn't really happen. That's how real life works, sometimes a lot happens all at once, sometimes not much happens.It's not slow, it's filler. Half the missions are just padding to give the campaign a 10-mission run time. They don't meaningfully advance the plot and could be easily cut to spend screen time on more important things, like giving context to why the Judicators dislike the dark templar that doesn't require reading the manual. This is 2017, we can include the manual exposition in the game now.


It's slower yes, but being "slow" is not a pacing issue. It's a pacing issue if it loses your interest and becomes unplayable because it's too slow or too fast, which doesn't really happen. That's how real life works, sometimes a lot happens all at once, sometimes not much happens.Episodes 2 and 3 are structured completely differently than Episode 1, and in my analysis inferior. The writers clearly ran out of steam and did not devote nearly as much care as they did in Episode 1. You can tell because every mission of Episode 1 is a single battle or major objective, while Episodes 2 and 3 spend multiple missions fighting a single battle or following the same objective. After hearing "protect/transport/piss on the chrysalis" or "hunt/rescue/fuck tassadar/zeratul" a half-dozen times over just as many missions I got well and truly sick of it. They feel like the side missions in Starcraft 2 for how much I hate them now.


How is her character not used interestingly? She's used as a commander against the protoss, and then is left behind to hunt down dark templar because that's literally her job and they are the only beings who are a threat to the Overmind. Then the epilogue text wraps up her arc.No she isn't. The plot text says she is important, but the player character does all the actual work. I recommend reading the fanfic Birth of Queen (https://www.fanfiction.net/s/12618357/1/Birth-of-a-Queen), which deconstructs (in the literary criticism sense, not the meaningless anime fanboy jargon) the plot of Episode 2 to display the exact opposite meaning to what Metzen intended.


Yes it does. Aldaris admits he was wrong.So he claims, but there is no believable reconciliation. That sort of heavy stuff needs way more than a line or two of dialogue to do it justice. You seem to attribute this to the game being released in 1998, but I would attribute it to half the missions being filler that do not meaningfully advance the plot.


The reason is that it's their law and religion. Dumb laws and religion exist in real life, and so do racists. This whole arc was an on-point commentary about religion. Really? The judicators were right about everything! The manual explains that the Dark Templar nearly destroyed Aiur with their uncontrolled psychic powers. Exterminating the Terrans would have stopped the Zerg. The Protoss were winning until Tassadar came along. This plays into the moral ambiguity of the original Starcraft by having no clear cut good guys or bad guys.


And Aldaris believes they have corrupted one of his best commanders. He tried to listen to them by authorizing the attack on the cerebrate, but it failed and only reinforced Aldaris's racism.I am more surprised they did not kill even a single cerebrate before this point while they were obliterating hive clusters by the gazillion, whether deliberately, accidentally or as collateral damage. It's not like the brain bugs are the biological equivalent of the psychic towers used by Protoss to coordinate their forces, nexuses of immense psychic traffic that makes them darn near impossible to miss, present on Aiur in the hundreds of thousands at locations of strategic value, or actively trying to hack in the Psi Matrix as part of their plot to infest the Protoss. (/sarcasm)

You would think that the judicators' battle reports included a few hundred with footnotes saying "oh, and some brain bugs, torrasques, etc died in the crossfire. Killing them causes such and such abnormal result not seen with other Zerg. Maybe we should research this? If the Zerg replicated instant resurrection in all other warrior beasts, and we have absolutely no reason to believe they cannot since we know nothing about their physiology other than it being deadly to us, we would be unable to stop them."

The Protoss take the cake for stupidity, as it makes no sense for the Judicators to waste resources hunting down Tassadar when he is clearly just suffering cabin fever. It makes more sense to figure why the brain bugs are the only Zerg organism that is able to return from the dead (apart from Torrasques and presumably dozens of similar immortal monsters that should be cause for concern), combined with their other abnormal features like being the most powerful psychics in the Swarm. That sounds like something of far more strategic value, far more frightening implications, than the ramblings of a madman a gazillion light years away. I'm honestly surprised the Protoss have no apparent concept of psychic disruption despite using psychic waves for everything, even though the Terrans do and jamming is a simple concept known ever since the radio was invented. It's almost like the cerebrate subplot is contrived to force the Judicators to make the stupidest possible decision, despite having been completely right about everything else before and logically having a super advanced understanding of psychic technology.


They were all killed, which is what was implied by Raynor asking if they'll bring reinforcements in "Eye of the Storm" and then they never do.Ain't that convenient? Everybody knows that every organized religion falls apart as soon as their tiny minority of leaders are killed off. (/sarcasm)

These sorts of plot holes and leaps of logic are all over the place in Episodes 2 and 3, at least compared to Episode 1.


I really don't see the problem. Yeah it's slow, but the dialog is also pretty damn minimal. It's the gameplay that takes a long time, but you know, StarCraft is a game and that's kind of the whole point.Compared to Episode 1, the plots of Episodes 2 and 3 feel contrived and meandering. It's not about merely being slow, it's about entire missions being filler that could be reduced to objectives in other missions, or characters making blatantly idiotic decisions that no real person would make in their position with the same facts and lack of hindsight.


That's a real stretch. Obviously what they wanted was in terran science vessels, not the Ghost Academy. Or, the science vessel was just closer and more expedient to sabotage since they were already in conflict.The Ghost Academy is where ghosts are studied and created, so obviously it would contain the research on them. Which the Zerg acquired when they infested the place, along with Jim's son Johnny (starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Johnny_Raynor). The Amerigo mission is filler which could have been easily cut and mentioned as a footnote somewhere.


So? There's a lot of things that happened in universe that we probably didn't see. Again, minimal dialog. This was 1998.It's 2017 now. I will not accept those excuses when remakes and reboots are the norm now.


Episode 2? I mean I agree that the dream was kind of dumb, but this seems subjective, especially since we have psychics and mind-readers in the setting anyway. Psychics and mind-readers that were never implied to be able to reach across exty whatever light years without a psi-emitter. Raynor and Duke do not meaningfully contribute to the plot, so they should really be cut. They should have remained in K-sec, doing stuff which they actually had an investment in. Starcraft dropped the ball with regard to keeping the Terrans relevant past Episode 1, and forgot that the focus was on factions and not specific characters.


Episode 3? Not really. Tassadar and Raynor both fought the zerg in the last campaign so it's only logical they'd team up. Duke, yeah sure, whatever. It's not like he has some huge effect on the narrative. I'm pretty sure it's also possible to not run into him and trigger his attack anyway.
Tassadar glassed the Sara System and many other planets. It makes no sense for Raynor to team up with him! That's like Einstein teaming up with Hitler because Hitler claimed he was only trying to stop an outbreak of E. coli.


I agree that BW sucks because James Phinney left, but it wasn't that bad for video games. The drama was still superior to SC2.It ruined the Zerg by systematically destroying their backstory and motivations in favor of becoming Kerry's tools for her stupid, short-sighted, and inconsistent goals. At least the Protoss campaign paid lip-service to the khala/void schism, even if it played second fiddle to an absurd hunt for macguffins to power a deus ex machina on the homeworld of a nomadic tribe.

[Nissa]

Honestly, I kind of want it to be a post-mortem-machine. We talk about what didn't work in the SC2 trilogy, why, what could it have been going for instead. We compare that to things that did work back in the day with less technology. Explain that, despite Kerrigan being in a murderous frenzy in both HOTS and Brood War, her role in the former is much more engaging and interesting. I truly believe that Blizzard will change given enough feedback, but the podcast should exist regardless of that.

It should be a vehicle of catharsis. We articulate the intangibles of what made the original great, what was lacking in the trilogy, what we wish we had, etc. It's point is to assert control over something we otherwise don't have any say in.

Okay, I like where this is going. I think the downloadable campaigns are of arguable canon, so I don't mind discussing them. Likewise, I think the SC novels would be great to compare to the Star Wars and Star Trek official fiction policies, like how it's different from theirs and which is the best official fiction policy.

Ha, we're the biggest nerds of them all, aren't we?

Mags, please take off your singular opinion goggles. You're stubbornly insisting on your own version of things when the general consensus is that the story through BW was at least interesting and more or less character consistent. You can't compare 5/6 of SC1 to SC2. After all, if everything after the first 1/6 of the game is bad, then Starcraft is itself bad, storywise, and we're simply autopsying something that was never good in the first place.

But because most of us enjoy all 6 mission sets of SC1, flaws and all, please stop stubbornly insisting that we accept your view of things as absolute.

Oh, and the plural of "Judicator" is "Judicator."


It's 2017 now. I will not accept those excuses when remakes and reboots are the norm now.

Oh, by the by, story gaps are actually good. You can't complain about things not being explained up front for the audience, because all good storytellers, no matter what format, must not treat their audience like idiots. You can't explain everything for people, because people can extrapolate, and if you explain every detail, not only will the reader get annoyed with you, but you'll also waste a lot of pages on pointless exposition. For specifically Starcraft, it's a battle game, so anything that can't be related in a mission briefing or during a mission is impossible to tell. Short cutscenes can be used, and end game text is alright, but if you spend a lot of time explaining stuff that doesn't need explaining, you're wasting your time pissing off the player. Not to mention that gaps in the plot create places where players can speculate and create fanfiction.

In short, the audience likes to think about a story, and if you explain everything, they don't get to think about it.

[Mislagnissa]

Mags, please take off your singular opinion goggles. You're stubbornly insisting on your own version of things when the general consensus is that the story through BW was at least interesting and more or less character consistent. You can't compare 5/6 of SC1 to SC2. After all, if everything after the first 1/6 of the game is bad, then Starcraft is itself bad, storywise, and we're simply autopsying something that was never good in the first place.

But because most of us enjoy all 6 mission sets of SC1, flaws and all, please stop stubbornly insisting that we accept your view of things as absolute.So you admit that SC1 has flaws? Progress! I advocate only that it be remade or rebooted with better writing to fix those flaws. Principally by aborting Queen of Blades in utero, not writing the Judicators as caricatures, and renaming UED to "Umojan Protectorate."

There is nothing wrong with admitting that something you like is bad or liking something that is bad. There is nothing wrong with demanding better. The sooner you realize this, the sooner you can start healing. The only reason that I criticize Starcraft lore and demand better is because I care so much about it. I weep for the retcons and plot holes that make Brood War a mockery of its predecessor, like Earth secretly watching K-sec for centuries or Duran stealing the Zerg's original goal. I weep for the Zerg, who lost their quest for perfection so that Kerry could crown herself ruler of the asshole of the universe even though her pet cerebrate did all the work. I weep for the hundreds of Protoss planets and alien races under their watch that were forgotten by Metzen. I weep for the massive Terran industrial machine that comes out of nowhere to recoup the devastating loses of the First Contact War in a matter of weeks. Arguments like these may me wonder whether I am the only person who cares about the lore. I wonder if those who share your opinion only want recapture the magic of playing Starcraft for the first time, and think that a war between Kerry's Zerg and Duran's hybrids will scratch that itch for you at the expense of the much richer lore that came before. But I digress...

I have typed dozens of paragraphs and cited numerous articles explaining why the story line of SC1/BW is flawed, why the fabled true sequel would end up going nowhere, and multiple suggestions for how to salvage the situation (including a timeline outlining a reboot linked in my sig and a treatment of Starcraft 3 as a semi sequel/soft reboot of the franchise in the universe discussion forum). Rather than complaining that I hold the "wrong" opinion, maybe you could engage with my assertions in a constructive manner? How am I wrong to criticize SC/BW and demand better quality of writing? Which part of my long and painstaking analysis is wrong and why? What would you suggest as an alternative?


Oh, by the by, story gaps are actually good. You can't complain about things not being explained up front for the audience, because all good storytellers, no matter what format, must not treat their audience like idiots. You can't explain everything for people, because people can extrapolate, and if you explain every detail, not only will the reader get annoyed with you, but you'll also waste a lot of pages on pointless exposition. For specifically Starcraft, it's a battle game, so anything that can't be related in a mission briefing or during a mission is impossible to tell. Short cutscenes can be used, and end game text is alright, but if you spend a lot of time explaining stuff that doesn't need explaining, you're wasting your time pissing off the player. Not to mention that gaps in the plot create places where players can speculate and create fanfiction.

In short, the audience likes to think about a story, and if you explain everything, they don't get to think about it.Here's an excerpt from Birth of a Queen which engages in exactly the sort of speculation you suggest.


Some time later there was a sudden sensation that coursed through the Cerebrate. It came from the outlying hives in the uninhabited part of the planet Char. He shuddered at the familiar sensation, and from the way Kerrigan tensed he knew she had sensed it as well. Even as he sensed it psionic energy was tearing through the hives. Hydralisks were torn apart, mutalisks were shot from the sky.

With the bulk of their broods deployed to halt the terran incursions the enemy ripped through many lesser hive clusters before they were halted. Lesser Cerebrates were working to halt them. For the moment they had succeeded.

'Do you feel that Cerebrate?' she asked 'The protoss are here. On Char. They have been for some time… hiding.' She motioned and sent forth a psionic call. 'Protoss Commander, it was folly of you to come here! For I am Kerrigan and I am Queen of the Zerg!'

'I know of you well, O Queen of the Zerg.' said a mocking voice. 'For we have met before. I am Tassadar of the Templar, I remember your selfless exploits defending humanity from the zerg. Unfortunate to see that one who was once so honorable and full of life, should succumb to the twisted wiles of the Overmind.' His voice was disappointed, as though Kerrigan had been undergoing a test and failed it quite spectacularly.

'Do not presume to judge me, Templar.' snapped Kerrigan 'You'll find my powers are more than a match for yours. In fact, I sense that your vaunted power has diminished since last we met.'

'Mayhap O Queen,' came the reply 'or perhaps I merely need not flaunt my power in such an infantile test of will.'

'Foolish Templar, prepare your defenses.' said Kerrigan 'I will come for you soon.'

Then the channel was cut and they were in silence. The Cerebrate looked up. 'Do you think protoss have a different definition of honor from terrans?'

'What?' said Kerrigan.

'Well I mean Tassadar called you honorable, but that just doesn't add up.' replied the Cerebrate 'Unless I'm mistaken you were a ruthless professional assassin who attacked by stealth without defiance sent, which is generally considered dishonorable.'

'Well I was still fighting the zerg-' she began.

'Don't listen to him Kerry!' said the Cerebrate 'You never defended humanity against the zerg. Your primary contribution to Mengsk's campaign was spreading discord throughout Antiga Prime and helping create a terran civil was while we walked in unopposed. Raynor and Calabas were the ones who destroyed all the zerg hives, not you.'

'I was too involved in the campaign against the zerg.' said Kerrigan, seeming annoyed for reasons beyond his comprehension.

'Really? How?' asked the Cerebrate.

Kerrigan remained silent for a moment, looking down at her feet. '…Well, I was in charge of organizing the militia.'

'To do what?' asked the Cerebrate.

'To hold ground that the Sons of Korhal and Alpha Squadron had already taken.' she said.

'Okay, so you did have some slight effect on the swarm. And that was pretty bad.' said the Cerebrate 'But you were all in favor of luring the zerg down onto Antiga Prime and letting us kill everyone while the Sons of Korhal cut and run. Your heart was in the right place.

Also very pragmatic.'

'Do you have a point Cerebrate?'

'My point is that Tassadar is wrong about you.' said the Cerebrate 'Absolutely. You did not defend humanity against the swarm. You were not honorable. And if anything you were a huge help to us by raising rebellion during our invasion.'

'Are you insinuating that I am incompetent?' she asked, an edge in her tone.

'It was a compliment.' said the Cerebrate. 'Also you've never met Tassadar before this point.'

'Yes I have.' said Kerrigan 'It was…' She faltered.

'He spent the entire campaign in the terran sector eradicating worlds from on high.' said the Cerebrate. 'He never directly entered the combat until Tarsonis, and you weren't even on the planet at the time. There is, quite literally, no period of time where you could have possibly met Tassadar. It simply doesn't exist.'

'…Can we just get on with this, okay.' said Kerrigan 'I just felt like I knew him. Or like some part of me did. Like… he had always been there. And I didn't exactly think it was me talking.'

'Those are called paranoid delusions, Kerry.' said the Cerebrate 'Your Overlord awaits.'

As you can plainly see, the entire briefing of the mission "dark templar" is deconstructed by simple application of critical thought. Plot holes like this are what I am referring to, among other problems, when I say that the narratives of Episodes 2 and 3 are lacking.

[Gradius]

You give Blizzard too much credit. I enjoyed them when I was a child, but as an adult I am embarrassed by how bad they are regardless of technical limitations. I think the plot has loads of room for improvement in a remake or reboot, assuming we hire competent writers and don't blow the budget on fancy graphics.
Embarrassed? That's ridiculous. It's decent for video games, especially video games from 1998. How many video games have you played? And as I've said multiple times, I want a reboot too.


It's not slow, it's filler. Half the missions are just padding to give the campaign a 10-mission run time. They don't meaningfully advance the plot and could be easily cut to spend screen time on more important things, like giving context to why the Judicators dislike the dark templar that doesn't require reading the manual.

Episodes 2 and 3 are structured completely differently than Episode 1, and in my analysis inferior. The writers clearly ran out of steam and did not devote nearly as much care as they did in Episode 1. You can tell because every mission of Episode 1 is a single battle or major objective, while Episodes 2 and 3 spend multiple missions fighting a single battle or following the same objective. After hearing "protect/transport/piss on the chrysalis" or "hunt/rescue/fuck tassadar/zeratul" a half-dozen times over just as many missions I got well and truly sick of it. They feel like the side missions in Starcraft 2 for how much I hate them now.
Ok, not much happens, I agree, but again, so what? Seriously, look at other RTS games. Universe at War Earth Assault, which is one of the top 5 RTS stories IMO, is sluggish af and it's from 2007.

In 1997, developing the game itself was hard enough and the story wasn't meant to be Shakespeare but rather a series of excuses for you to go in and roll the enemy base. That's why I want a reboot, it could be so much more with a modern company's resources.


No she isn't. The plot text says she is important, but the player character does all the actual work. I recommend reading the fanfic Birth of Queen, which deconstructs (in the literary criticism sense, not the meaningless anime fanboy jargon) the plot of Episode 2 to display the exact opposite meaning to what Metzen intended.
The player character does all the work because it's a video game and every video game makes the player feel powerful. Kerrigan still did her designated job, even though it's not the job from the manual.

I think we were supposed to infer that her inclusion in the swarm boosted other strains as well since she was a "success", but that's just my headcanon.


So he claims, but there is no believable reconciliation. That sort of heavy stuff needs way more than a line or two of dialogue to do it justice. You seem to attribute this to the game being released in 1998,
Seems completely subjective. Aldaris's apology hit me in the feels. He admitted he was wrong, and that's all I needed.


but I would attribute it to half the missions being filler that do not meaningfully advance the plot.
You're not selling anyone on this "the game sucks because it has filler" argument. Everything has filler. DBZ has filler. Game of Thrones has filler. Both are entertaining as hell, which is the ultimate benchmark.

At no point is "everything has to move the plot forward 100% of the time at a fast rate" a requirement for good writing. That's something you arbitrarily decided needs to happen. It's good when it does, but it's not bad when it doesn't, unless it's really drawn out. This is especially true for a game like SC because all that was really needed back in 1998 was an excuse to steamroll the computer's base.

Likewise, the UED gets shat on all the time because they disappear as quickly as they appear, which YOU should enjoy because the plot is moving fast and has lots of momentum.


Really? The judicators were right about everything! The manual explains that the Dark Templar nearly destroyed Aiur with their uncontrolled psychic powers. Exterminating the Terrans would have stopped the Zerg. The Protoss were winning until Tassadar came along. This plays into the moral ambiguity of the original Starcraft by having no clear cut good guys or bad guys.
You just called them moronic space racists, but now you're saying they were right about everything. Which one is it?

Also:
1) The dark templar nearly destroyed Aiur but it was the Conclave's prejudice that led them to that in the first place.
2) Exterminating the terrans was genocide and there's no proof it would have stopped the zerg.
3) The zerg still would have beaten the protoss in a war of attrition. Dark Templar were a requirement to win.


I am more surprised they did not kill even a single cerebrate before this point while they were obliterating hive clusters by the gazillion, whether deliberately, accidentally or as collateral damage. It's not like the brain bugs are the biological equivalent of the psychic towers used by Protoss to coordinate their forces, nexuses of immense psychic traffic that makes them darn near impossible to miss, present on Aiur in the hundreds of thousands at locations of strategic value, or actively trying to hack in the Psi Matrix as part of their plot to infest the Protoss. (/sarcasm)

You would think that the judicators' battle reports included a few hundred with footnotes saying "oh, and some brain bugs, torrasques, etc died in the crossfire. Killing them causes such and such abnormal result not seen with other Zerg. Maybe we should research this? If the Zerg replicated instant resurrection in all other warrior beasts, and we have absolutely no reason to believe they cannot since we know nothing about their physiology other than it being deadly to us, we would be unable to stop them."
Explained pretty clearly in the game:

"For attacking defenseless Cerebrates is not the way of true Protoss warriors! We shall overcome the entire Swarm with the might and the fury that is our heritage!"

And where are you getting the idea that there's "hundreds" of Cerebrates? There's a handful in the manual, and it would make sense for them to be hidden away deep in zerg territory. The onus is on you to prove that there's a contradiction. Making stuff up and saying this is how something should have happened is not how literary critique works.


The Protoss take the cake for stupidity, as it makes no sense for the Judicators to waste resources hunting down Tassadar when he is clearly just suffering cabin fever. It makes more sense to figure why the brain bugs are the only Zerg organism that is able to return from the dead (apart from Torrasques and presumably dozens of similar immortal monsters that should be cause for concern), combined with their other abnormal features like being the most powerful psychics in the Swarm.
This would be a valid argument if the writers weren't aware of this. Aldaris believes the dark templar are the bigger threat and winning the war, but Tassadar points out how stupid this is.

As far as I'm concerned, all the Conclave's stupidity is pretty much impervious to critique because there's a Watsonian & Doylist justification for it (wink at Turalyon ;)). Characters in universe point out what blind religious zealots they are, which shows that the writers are aware of this and they constructed the arc competently as part of their critique on religion. Contrast this to SC2 where the writers see no problem with and nobody ever says anything about getting the bomb out of Tychus's suit, or Kerrigan being a mass murderer, or Raynor slaughtering protoss for money, or the dozen other screwups.


That sounds like something of far more strategic value, far more frightening implications, than the ramblings of a madman a gazillion light years away. I'm honestly surprised the Protoss have no apparent concept of psychic disruption despite using psychic waves for everything, even though the Terrans do and jamming is a simple concept known ever since the radio was invented. It's almost like the cerebrate subplot is contrived to force the Judicators to make the stupidest possible decision, despite having been completely right about everything else before and logically having a super advanced understanding of psychic technology.
You get that it's never explained how any of this crap works, and that for all intents and purposes you're just making stuff up, right? Psychic waves =/= radio waves. Maybe they could make a psi disruptor, but again, they believe that doing anything less than fighting the swarm in pitched combat is dishonorable. That's kind of the whole point of their warrior culture. Are you sure you get the protoss? They ruled the galaxy for millenia and have a lot of pride and ego invested in their methods, making them impervious to change.

What is the problem with the Judicators previously being right about everything and then making a mistake? This is what's so inconceivable to you? Come on... -_-


Ain't that convenient? Everybody knows that every organized religion falls apart as soon as their tiny minority of leaders are killed off. (/sarcasm)

These sorts of plot holes and leaps of logic are all over the place in Episodes 2 and 3, at least compared to Episode 1.
This isn't a plot hole, this sounds like you just don't get the plot. Nobody ever said the religion fell apart, they said "the Conclave has witnessed your defeat of the Cerebrate. They know now that they cannot deny the necessity or the valiancy of your actions." You can't say "they weren't convinced" when the dialog clearly demonstrates that they were.


Compared to Episode 1, the plots of Episodes 2 and 3 feel contrived and meandering. It's not about merely being slow, it's about entire missions being filler that could be reduced to objectives in other missions, or characters making blatantly idiotic decisions that no real person would make in their position with the same facts and lack of hindsight.
Yes, it's got filler. And I agree it has moments that need filling out, which is why I want a reboot. But you've shown pretty much no evidence of these "blatantly idiotic decisions."


The Ghost Academy is where ghosts are studied and created, so obviously it would contain the research on them. Which the Zerg acquired when they infested the place, along with Jim's son Johnny. The Amerigo mission is filler which could have been easily cut and mentioned as a footnote somewhere.
You seem to have a huge misconception about how debates work. If you're going to make a claim that there's a plot hole, then you need evidence that there's a contradiction somewhere. Nowhere does it say and you have no proof that what they need is at the ghost academy and not contained in terran science vessels. You need to go find that evidence otherwise you're basically just making stuff up.


It's 2017 now. I will not accept those excuses when remakes and reboots are the norm now.
Yes...I agree with you. Bring on the reboot.


Psychics and mind-readers that were never implied to be able to reach across exty whatever light years without a psi-emitter.
Kerrigan is a supercharged zerg warrior, not a mere terran ghost anymore, so what's your point? I'm sorry, but when Kerrigan's power is built up over several missions you don't really get to complain that she's not powerful enough to do something. Especially since to you, having more missions is a "pacing issue" and "filler".

Either way, the swarm can issue orders to minions over multiple light years, and Kerrigan is part of the swarm now. Again, if you claim that this is a plothole, the onus is on you to demonstrate how this is impossible.


Raynor and Duke do not meaningfully contribute to the plot, so they should really be cut.
Says who? Find me a publisher's website that has "everything irrelevant to the plot needs to be cut out" as one of the requirements for their publishing standards.


They should have remained in K-sec, doing stuff which they actually had an investment in. Starcraft dropped the ball with regard to keeping the Terrans relevant past Episode 1, and forgot that the focus was on factions and not specific characters.
Yeah I would have liked to see more Terrans in episode 3. If not Mengsk, then at least Umojans. It's dumb that Raynor's rag-tag forces got obliterated but somehow he made a difference on Aiur. In my reboot, I'd have him join forces with the Umojans or Kel-Morians and have them help on Aiur as well.


Tassadar glassed the Sara System and many other planets. It makes no sense for Raynor to team up with him! That's like Einstein teaming up with Hitler because Hitler claimed he was only trying to stop an outbreak of E. coli.False analogy, the zerg are more analogous to Hitler. Raynor doesn't get an option! He's stuck on the planet and so is Tassadar, but Tassadar is better at fighting Zerg. Fighting zerg is the one thing they have in common.

Also, way to completely ignore the context that Tassadar was remorseful for attacking the terran worlds and that someone else would have done it he hadn't.


It ruined the Zerg by systematically destroying their backstory and motivations in favor of becoming Kerry's tools for her stupid, short-sighted, and inconsistent goals.
Kerrigan is my most-hated character, but it wasn't "ruined" until Metzen decided there could be no more Cerebrates. And the fact that characters had to be idiots for her to win. Still, at least it was fun to watch/play, unlike HoTS where Kerrigan murders millions of people and still gets treated like a hero.

[Turalyon]

Such glorious walls of text!

All-in-all though, I'm on the same consensus with Grad here. Misla does seem to be too affected by subjective bias in his critiques. The apparent inconsistencies and oddities he points out are really interesting cases of fridge logic to be sure and they do sometimes expose the narrative conceit behind it all, but they don't thoroughly break the story in such a way that it ultimately feels like a jumbled mess or mere whimsy as he deems to suggest.

The story of Sc1 isn't technically perfect, which no-one has ever claimed and everyone knows that. What positives it does have, was that it was serviceable/simplistic (for the medium in which it was working in), had sustained momentum, used tropes effectively, was genuinely moving in places and had moments worthy of being memorable. These in themselves is a lot to ask for without also having to delve into more semantic issues like plotting, structure and world-building.


As far as I'm concerned, all the Conclave's stupidity is pretty much impervious to critique because there's a Watsonian & Doylist justification for it (wink at Turalyon ;)).

You have my regards. :cool:

[Mislagnissa]

I am glad we are able to agree that the original story deserves a reboot with expansion, even if you are much more forgiving of anything tainted by Metzen than I am. I have posted a new thread for SC1 critique/rebooting to avoid cluttering the SC2 critique threads.

Let's keep this thread limited to SC2 critique, shall we? Let's make more lists of things that Blizzard did wrong in SC2. That's always fun!

The Taldarim, for example, make more sense as a tribe of Nerazim rather than a wholly new ethnic group and give more weight to the Judicators' prejudice toward them. Starcraft, at least originally, was about faction politics and moral ambiguity. LotV tried to explore this, but Amon wasted screen time.

[Nissa]

So you admit that SC1 has flaws? Progress!

Um, I've literally posted a couple of days ago that SC1 has flaws. Do you actually read my posts? You have points, it's that you don't seem to get what I'm saying. I'm saying that on the whole, I found the story satisfactory, and that I am not inclined to chop off the story past the first one-sixth of it. Have fun critiquing it, if it makes you happy, but most of us feel it's more or less solid storytelling for the time.

Also, you can't tell us to stick to critiquing SC2 when you're the one who brought up SC1. Honestly though, it's fine to critique SC1 here, if you really want to. This thread is about what would go into a potential podcast, so maybe Undead could have a podcast where you're the guest, and you explain your opinion properly. After all, opinions can be interesting, even when they're wrong. :D Though I personally think handling each flaw separately is a better idea, because that would create discussion for each individual problem.

Seriously, both games have their story flaws, but this is video gaming. It's not there primarily to tell a story. Honestly, the story entertained me, and despite its flaws, it had a very tight tonal presentation. The rednecks were proper rednecks, Mengsk was beautifully villainous in all his appearances, Zeratul was particularly well handled, and the tension was way up in the 10s by the end of it all. Good times were had.

Edit: Oh, and if you're wondering what I'm talking about with Zeratul, his transition from SC to BW is really interesting, in my opinion. The thing about Zeratul is that he's not a leader of a large number of people. He's the sort of operative you send to do a very specific thing (kill a cerebrate, rescue Tassadar) and Tassadar and Fenix are making the bigger strategic decisions. So when both of them are unavailable, and the Matriarch, the person that Zeratul trusts mosts, is captured, Zeratul struggles to handle larger decisions with bigger consequences. I like that we see this side of him, because it defines what he is and what he is not. He is, a quiet, detailed thinker, not a grandiose leader of many civilians.

[Mislagnissa]

Um, I've literally posted a couple of days ago that SC1 has flaws. Do you actually read my posts? You have points, it's that you don't seem to get what I'm saying. I'm saying that on the whole, I found the story satisfactory, and that I am not inclined to chop off the story past the first one-sixth of it. Have fun critiquing it, if it makes you happy, but most of us feel it's more or less solid storytelling for the time.

Also, you can't tell us to stick to critiquing SC2 when you're the one who brought up SC1. Honestly though, it's fine to critique SC1 here, if you really want to. This thread is about what would go into a potential podcast, so maybe Undead could have a podcast where you're the guest, and you explain your opinion properly. After all, opinions can be interesting, even when they're wrong. :D Though I personally think handling each flaw separately is a better idea, because that would create discussion for each individual problem.

Seriously, both games have their story flaws, but this is video gaming. It's not there primarily to tell a story. Honestly, the story entertained me, and despite its flaws, it had a very tight tonal presentation. The rednecks were proper rednecks, Mengsk was beautifully villainous in all his appearances, Zeratul was particularly well handled, and the tension was way up in the 10s by the end of it all. Good times were had.

Edit: Oh, and if you're wondering what I'm talking about with Zeratul, his transition from SC to BW is really interesting, in my opinion. The thing about Zeratul is that he's not a leader of a large number of people. He's the sort of operative you send to do a very specific thing (kill a cerebrate, rescue Tassadar) and Tassadar and Fenix are making the bigger strategic decisions. So when both of them are unavailable, and the Matriarch, the person that Zeratul trusts mosts, is captured, Zeratul struggles to handle larger decisions with bigger consequences. I like that we see this side of him, because it defines what he is and what he is not. He is, a quiet, detailed thinker, not a grandiose leader of many civilians.

If you read the timeline linked in my sig, you will notice that it follows the same rough order of events as SC/BW, except revised to maintain consistency with the premise of Starcraft as being about faction politics and moral ambiguity rather than getting lost in bizarre tangents. If you would like to have a more detailed discussion, I made another thread about that. My only contribution to the podcast in that regard is this: read the links in my sig. It already says everything that needs to be said about fixing Starcraft. If you would like to critique it, I made a thread for that. Enumerate, the title of the revision project I mentioned, really deserves its own thread, its own podcast given how huge it is.

[Nissa]

And, given that I just said that your topic should have its own podcast, I think perhaps maybe you didn't read my post.

Mm'kay.

[Mislagnissa]

And, given that I just said that your topic should have its own podcast, I think perhaps maybe you didn't read my post.

Mm'kay.

Sorry, I meant a podcast series. Not a single episode. It is a 150 pages total, last I checked. Check the other thread I made with an abridged summary and post your critique if you please.

[Mislagnissa]

However, if you insist on ignoring my other thread and would prefer to discuss the same topic in this thread, which I really considering derailing, then I shall throw my reservations to the wind and oblige you. In case anyone missed it, I did not write any of this.


The Concept of SC:EN is to be one based off of the ideals of establishment and rewriting a universe completely of its outcomes and history. Following the concepts of the First Game and the Manual, with some elements of the Brood War Expansion, the entire thing follows a change of history, where the outcomes of the Three Races, the All Resilient Terrans, the All Powerful Protoss, and the All Mighty Zerg, as the combat each other in the Korpulu Sector and beyond, reaching towards an endless war where the Three Races strive for their own goals, reaching towards a change that will inevitably change not only the three races, but the stars themselves.
This is not a campaign, rather a ‘universe that holds a large amount of different campaigns’. With there being plenty of things to tell of Pre-Great War, Great War, Brood Wars, and Beyond, there will be many settings in which the Three Races will be part of, with the first being majority wise Terrans and Zerg, and later the Protoss becoming also a major part of the story in terms of higher quantity. This is to tell of the different changes and settings established for all three races.

Here's the overview for the changes to the Zerg, since they are the instigators of the Great War. It includes their interactions with Terrans and Protoss as well.


TL;DR Zerg (Things to Note)
- There will be no Kerrigan: The Zerg will have alternatives to Kerrigan, which are the Assimilated Terrans listed. The Reason for Kerrigan being removed, is due to many reasons: A) Kerrigan lacks a character that is stable, and changes entirely to whatever is desired for the writers, and lacks a stable character. B) Infested Kerrigan has showcased a de-evolution to the qualities of the Zerg Race in many ways, with Brood War Kerrigan and onwards be only worthwhile due to ‘invisible armour’ that makes everyone else worthless, and makes her greater (somehow). With these two reasons, the other reason is due to the story being mostly focused on a large abundance of characters, and Kerrigan along with other characters being overly focused to the point she has become, personally, not worthwhile.
- The Zerg will be the Main Antagonist Throughout: Although the Zerg will be splintered and decimated due to the loss of the Overmind, the Zerg will continue to be the bane of all other life, and will be the primary antagonist of both the Protoss and the Terrans. In many scenarios, the Zerg will be an all-hated enemy of both the Terrans and the Protoss, and will continue to be a devastating enemy that has broken the two races with the promise of extinction.
- The Zerg Protagonists in stories will all by Cerebrates: While the Zerg will be a primary race from beginning to end, the Zerg will all of the played characters being Cerebrates. While there will be other characters of the Swarm, including the Overmind and some of the Assimilated Terrans that will be looked upon during dialogues and briefings, the character will always be a Cerebrate when playing as a Zerg.
- There will be no Duran and no Hybrids: Although it was introduced in Dark Origins, and was poorly executed in the sequels afterwards, both Duran and the Hybrids will be avoided entirely.
- The Xel’Naga, along with the Pre-Aeon Protoss, will be Secondary, Distant Story Elements: Although the Xel’Naga and anything attached to them, including Duran, the Hybrids, and their ruins have been overused in many Starcraft Stories, both in games and other media, the Xel’Naga will not be overly looked as they have before, with most of the campaigns that do have any significance of the Xel’Naga being a ‘mention’, nothing more. There will be ruins and so forth of the Xel’Naga that will be explored, but they will be rare. The Pre-Aeon Protoss will be also explored, as they were avoided and retconned by Blizzard to be non-existent. During the invasion of Aiur, the Zerg will explore many of these ruins in order to harvest and use the powers of old to topple of Khala Protoss.
- The Process of Assimilation and Infestation will be explored: As the process of Assimilation has not been looked upon properly, this story will look upon the process of Assimilation, with the first examples of Assimilation being the Assimilated Terrans, which the campaigns will show the Process how Psionic Terrans are processed, changed, and become part of the Swarm.
- Many aspects of the Zerg Units will Change: Many of the Units of the Zerg Units and Structures will have new introductions and changes in order to make the Zerg something new when played upon:
o The Queens will remove the role of a simple caster, and become the Zerg’s Equivalence of a Reaver or Carrier, which the Queen harvests Parasites and uses them on the battle like a Reaver builds Scarabs and launches them.
o The Defiler’s Casting will change to have many spells that reflect what a hive can build, able to cast spells depending on what a Larvae can morph into.
o The Mutalisk and the Hydralisk will both have mutations; the Mutalisk was designed to have an aspect of it changing to deal with certain situations, which the Mutalisk will continue with the addition of two new morphs it can become. The Hydralisk will also have an additional two new morphs that are similar to the Lurker.
o The Overlord will be the only unit that has detection, other than the Overmind and the Cerebrates themselves, along with possibly some of the structures that are Assimilated Terrans. That and the addition of new roles for the Overlords is meant to make the Overlord a wanted unit for a Zerg Commander.
o The Cerebrates are given the ability to use powers and, possibly, move, in order to explore the Psionics that the Cerebrates have, as well as their mastery of bio-engineering and manipulation.
o The Creep Colonies will have many different structures available to be built, other than the Sunken Colony and Spore Colony.
o New Units that are able to be built from hives include the Scyllisk and the Stactlisk.
- The Aspect of Broods and their Roles will be Explored: As Broods have been explored and dropped in Starcraft due to the creators of the concept not giving a damn, the Broods and its different roles will contribute to the story of Starcraft.
- The Brood War: The Entirety of the Brood War will play out differently, with there being many different Zerg Broods fighting amongst each other for power. This is due to the Cerebrates being designed to have different personalities that other Cerebrates may or may not like/agree with, however disputes were not taken towards civil war due to the Will uniting them. With the Will that uniting them broken, as well as the concept of Feral Zerg and the whiplash of the Will’s Death affecting many of the Broods causing a concept of Strife for the Zerg that threatens strife within the Swarm as a whole, causing different Swarms to arise.
- The Pre-Great War: Due to there being hints of the Zerg making contact with the Zerg both in the original Starcraft and the Books about Mengsk, the concept of the Zerg interacting with the Terrans a year before the Great War will be explored.
- Replacement of the Renegade: While Kerrigan was the Renegade Zerg that was the primary antagonist, or protagonist, in Brood War’s campaign, Kerrigan will be replaced with the Assimilated Terrans taking hold of the Broods that have lost their Cerebrates, using their psionics in order to rebuild the Brood under their power. Aged Overlords will also be a concept, however they are unable able to run a small hive, being extremely weak in comparison to a Brood.
- The Interactions with the Terrans: The Zerg will be explored by both the Confederacy and the Umojans during the Pre-Great War and the first parts of the Great War, with the Confederacy exploring the Zerg’s Psionic Hivemind, and the Umojans studying the Zerg’s Biological Assets. This will contribute in the rise of the Dominion, later the Umojans, using the Zerg to their advantage.
o The Confederacy will be taking the Psionic Studies to influence the production of Psi Emitters, Psi Disruptors, and other technology in order to be used against the Zerg, later to be taken by the Dominion and the Umojans.
o The Umojans will be using the Zerg to create new anti-zerg weaponry, along with planning on using Zerg, even Zerg-Like Bio-Engineered Weapons, in order to battle against the Zerg and other enemies.
The Dominion will be trying to run its own program to follow what the Confederacy had left off, however due to the decimation of many scientists and research facilities, the Dominion have to find and collect the scraps and build up once more.
- The Protoss and the Zerg: Although the Zerg will make little to no interaction with the Protoss until the stage of the Great War where the Psionic Terrans begin to be assimilated, the Protoss and the Zerg will become a primary aspect of war, where the tides of Terrans and Zerg being the primary conflict at the start will shift to the Protoss being the Zerg’s target of extermination and assimilation next. This will continue until the end of the Great War, where Zerg will begin to make conflict with all three races, including itself.
o The Zerg will be attacking planets that are held by the Khala, in order to exterminate the race and collect as many Khaydarin Crystals to help the process of Assimilation for the Protoss.
o The Zerg will be attacking the Dark Templar, hunting down as many as possible with its devastating Broods in order to remove the threat of the Dark Templar and the potential harm it can do to the Swarm.
o The Zerg will be attacking Aiur as the primary base of operations after Char and the other Hive Worlds, to plan and start the Assimilation Process of the Protoss by first attacking the Khala that unites them.
o The Zerg will be exploring planets that once held the Pre-Aeon Protoss, finding their ruins in order to help their progress into assimilating the Protoss, and their extermination of independence from the Swarm.
- The Conflict of the Zerg in the Brood Wars will be the primary plot during that Time: Many of the different Broods trying to assert power and become the dominant Will, will be the plot of the Zerg during the Brood Wars.

Below is the timeline for the proposal. It follows the same broad strokes as the Great War and Brood War.




Current Plans of the Timeline (Zerg (Pre-Great War to Brood War))
As there are to be many changes for Starcraft and all that happens, the Zerg will be receiving changes that will require noting, as much as many other things for the Zerg.
- The Pre-Great War: The Zerg, taking a 60 year track across space to reach the Terrans, send out their Vanguard to attack the outer rims of Terran Space, first attacking independent settlers and one of the three powerhouses of the Korpulu Sector, the Kel-Morian Combine.
o The Vanguard Broods will be sent for the sole purpose of conquering the lesser Terrans, in order to break a path for the entire swarm to attack the more powerful Confederacy and Umojans.
o The Vanguard Brood is assigned to harvest the psionic mutants that are within the Independent and Kel-Morian settlements, in order to keep them for the Overminds Great Plan.
o The Vanguard Brood will be dealing with the Kel-Morians as the main enemy during the early ages of Pre-Great War.
o The Vanguard Brood will be facing against the Confederacy during the late stages of the Pre-Great War, with both the Confederacy and the Umojans trying to study and exterminate the Zerg forces that are coming closer to their space.
o The Vanguard Brood will be facing against large amounts of nuclear weaponry and battlecruiser fleets, when facing against the Confederacy.
o The Vanguard will have an incident where the Confederacy try to control/destroy the Cerebrates that lead the Broods, when exterminating the Broods don’t work.
o The Vanguard have some of the minions taken by the Confederacy and the Umojans for their experimentations.
o The Vanguard will cause the breakdown of many of the Kel-Morian Combine, causing many of the mining colonies to break down, while the few that survive are either infested or psionic terrans held captive.
o At the end of the Pre-Great Wars, the Protoss will come in full force, with different portions of the Korpulu Expeditionary Force sent to stop the Vanguard from moving any farther.
The Protoss fail to stop the Zerg with traditional combat; resorts on exterminating infested worlds with purification.
o The Great War starts, when the first purified world, Chau Sara, causing the citizens of the Confederacy to first note the presence of the alien menace… though the first alien menace they see are the Protoss, not the Zerg.
o The Start of the Great War marks the move from the Kel-Morians by the Vanguard, to the full might of the Zerg Swarm reaching the rest.


- The Great War: The Zerg will begin to send the rest of its great, mighty broods to be attacking the remaining Terran Worlds of the Confederacy, the Umojans, and what is left of the Kel-Morians. This will result with much of the Protoss sending their forces to purify planets held by the Zerg, causing the Terrans to have a great amount of fear and terror in their hearts and minds.
o The Primary Assault Broods are tasked to attacking the Confederacy and the Umojans, while the Vanguard Brood that came before hunts down the rest of the outer Terran Worlds, including the rest of the Kel-Morians
o The Protoss begin to try and purify the worlds that have a hint of the Zerg taking hold, in order to prevent the Terrans from being infested and/or assimilated.
o Much of the Terrans, both the Umojans and the Confederacy, will try to use their research on the Zerg in order to prevent their extinction.
The Umojans will use their study of the Zerg’s biology in order to make new countermeasures with their weaponry, as well as try to harness the biology to make their own tools and weapons to combat the Zerg.
The Umojans will also be assisting the Kel-Morians and other Independent Colonists, pumping their resources in order to help unify the few Terrans that are vulnerable to deal with the greater threat.
The Confederacy will by using their Psionic Study of the Zerg, especially their research on the Hivemind, in order to take advantage of the Zerg and use them to their advantage, as well as weaken them.
The Confederacy will try to draw the Zerg away to the Umojans and their other enemies, while using their technology to weaken the Zerg and decimate them.
o The Zerg continue to lay waste upon the Terrans, facing off against the Three Powerhouses until Tarsonis.
The Zerg are called upon to the planet Tarsonis by a large amount of Psionic Emission across space; before that, the planets Mars Sara, Chau Sara, and Antiga Prime.
The Zerg are given quite a bit of trouble with the Confederacy using their arm of Psionic weaponry in order to slow down the assault of the Zerg, along with nuclear fire and battlecruiser bombardment.
Most of the worlds decimated by the Confederacy end with Purification.
o The Zergs begin to move away from the Terrans, after the fall of Tarsonis.
Many of the Zerg leave, due to collecting an abundance of Psionic Mutants from the Korpulu Sector and other places ruled by the Terrans.


The Zerg depart to a few key worlds, including Char, in order to begin the process of assimilation without trouble.
The Zerg begin to exterminate the rest of the Terrans with the remaining Vanguard and a few Primary Assault Broods.
The Process of Extermination and Assimilation upon the Terrans have begun to commence.
o The Dominion rises from the ashes of Tarsonis, uniting not only the remnants of the Confederacy, but also the Kel-Morians and the Umojans, in order to fight the dangerous Zerg.
The Dominion unify the Umojans and the Kel-Morians, in order to break the Zerg back from the planets being raid
The Unity of the Terrans causes a push back towards the Zergs, allowing some victories to rise that includes the decimation of Brood Forces that were left there to exterminate the Terrans, and harvest the Psionic Mutants.
The Dominion is led by Arcturus Mengsk, with the second command being Edmund Duke and other leaders of the Confederate Squadrons being underneath him.
The Dominion uses the unity of the Terrans, along with the ideals of nuclear fire and large amounts of battlecruiser fleets, to break the Zerg.
The Dominion try to scavenge the remaining remnants of the Confederacy research, while receiving ‘all’ of the research the Umojans hold.
• The Umojans secretly compete with the Dominion to scavenge the remnants of the Confederacy’s research on the Zerg, although not officially.
The Unity of the Terrans lasts until the end of the Great War, during that time Mengsk leads the people against the alien menace of both the Protoss and the Zerg, while enforcing Dominion rule upon other Terrans.
o The Zerg begin the assimilation process of the Terrans, on Char and other planets, led by both the Overmind and his most trusted of Cerebrates for the task.
Due to the lack of psionic prowess the Terrans have in comparison to the Protoss, the Overmind plans on the concept of shared psionic connection, to battle against the Protoss.
• Many of the assimilated Psionics begin to be placed in a black crystal-like substance that holds their brain and nerves, with many modified organs and tissue inside.


• Many of these Psionics are each connected with other Assimilated Psionics in their crystal-like bodies, allowing them to connect their psionic brains together to become a stronger foe.
• This form of Assimilation, the Conexus, number in the dozens, with the Overmind beginning to try to allow production of these creatures with Drones.
• Many of these Conexus are the cause of beaconing the Protoss, which leads to the two alien races, as before in the Pre-Great War, begin to fight each other in armed combat.
Along with the completion of the Conexus, a new breed of Zerg, called the Commisceo, is born from the properties of physically merging the brains of other Psionics together into one brain.
• Causes the formation of giant brain-like entities that have the ability to tear apart others.
• Due to the massive size of this creature, and the faults of massive biological change that merges such together, the giant brain mass is designed to be great enough to decimate forces.
• Due to its massive size, the creature is designed to take much longer to construct, with the promise of ultimate power in return.
• Many aspects of it, including its raw power of psionics, is promising, however its high expense in itself to control it has often made the Overmind question whether the creature itself is a possible candidate.
Finally, with the Commisceo and the Conexus, the third form of Assimilated, the Pararius, is to design Terran Psionics into a formidable fighting force, giving them a similar ideal of a Zealot.
• Due to the Psionic Terrans not even reaching such potential, these Agents are able to unite their minds similar to the Khalai and the Conexus, allowing them to function together.
• The Pararius are able to use their psionics to heighten their senses and stimulate their motor functions, allowing them to use their psionics to allow proper coordination and premonition.
• The Pararius is given changes to the legs and arms in order to be able to fight in combat, as well as given other additions as well.
• The Pararius failed as an attempt for assimilation, due to the psionics being incapable of dealing with zealots in an equivalent battlefield, despite their high numbers, making the Overmind see


them as worthless if they could not fight against the enemy they were designed to face.
• The Pararius was reworked a second time to have a new body that would combat the Zealots; this new form was more powerful than the old Pararius Strain, and was capable of meeting a Zealot and killing it with minimum damage.
• The Pararius was about to become distributed across the Broods as a basis unit during the end of the Great War.
The many different assimilated survive towards the end of the Great War.
o As the Great War continued on, the first Cerebrate to fall, Zasz, showcases the location of the Protoss and their most current history and present, giving the Overmind insight of what is happening.
The Overmind, paused for a while after the attack on the hive, begins to send its experimented terrans upon the Protoss, to remove the combined forces of the Dark Templar and the Khalai.
Many of the Cerebrates start to leave the hive planets, with the Overmind commanding each and every brood towards different locations of Protoss space, owned by both the Dark Templar and the Khalai.
• The majority of the most powerful Zerg Broods are sent to go after the homeworld of the Khalai, Aiur, in order to make an establishment for the Overmind.
• Many of the specialist broods that were designed specifically for the Protoss begin to build up their size, with the guardian broods sent to the Dark Templar-specific planets, as well as the ones on Char and the other Hive Planets, while the ones designed to manipulate Khaydarin Technology are sent to planets held by the Khalai.
o The Broods that are sent to the Dark Templar are given a large abundance of the Assimilated Terrans to fight against the Cerebrate killers, with the Guardian Broods designed to specifically defend against the Dark Templar that threaten the Cerebrates.
o The Broods that are sent to go after the Khaydarin crystals are designed to help give the Protoss the Psionic edge, by collecting and using them to be assimilated by both the Cerebrates and the Overmind to become more powerful, while causing a rupture in the Protoss Tech to make it turn against them.


• The Broods begin to play their roles in exterminating the Protoss race, tearing apart the Billions that impact the Protoss more than the Terrans ever could have witnessed.
• The Overmind settles upon Aiur, upon the first place the Xel’Naga laid beforehand, carrying a few Khaydarin Crystals to allow the Overmind to nestle upon Aiur’s surface.
o The Protoss and the Zerg begin a full on war against each other, while the Terrans are left to deal with some of the few remaining Zerg Broods left to take care of them; this leads to the Terrans having a long war against the Zerg, while also dealing with your own civil issues.
The Umojans go into a covert civil war against the Dominion, both for the Dominion’s ruthless and similar ideals to the Confederacy, and the Dominion’s role on using the Psi Emitters to direct the Zerg to Tarsonis.
The Dominion are notified that these covert civil wars are done by pirates and raiders, such as Raynor’s Raiders, however some suspect that the Umojans are behind it.
The Umojans are threatened by the Dominion by the accusation of being a threat to the Dominion, while also not giving their advanced technology and the necessary research on the Zerg to the Dominion.
The Zerg have caused a great amount of stress to the Terrans, however a good amount of Broods that are left to take care of the Terrans are beginning to cause entrenchments and stalemates in some planets, while others are taking a slow process for some of the Zerg to deal with the Terrans on other worlds
• The War on the Terrans is slowing down.
o During the Great War against the Protoss, the Zerg begin to deal with the loss of Cerebrates both against the Dark Templar they invaded and the ones on Char and other Hive Planets
The Zerg begin to deal with a good amount of Feral Zerg during the process, dealing with the many different chaotic situations that are caused due to the loss of a Brood’s Cerebrate.
The Zerg begin to try and hunt down the remaining protoss on the Hive Worlds, which have lead the Protoss to resort into hiding in the shadows.
Many of the Dark Templar that are fighting against the Zerg on their own worlds and locations cause the Dark Templar and Zerg to reach a massive scaled war that pushes them towards the concept of fleeing with their lives, or hiding.


Many of the Feral Zerg on both of these worlds are often immediately exterminated by fellow Broods nearby.
This often leads the Overmind to compensate with the losses, by creating new Broods on the planet Aiur and sending them to either new Hive Worlds to build them up for full strength, or in rare occasions be sent off to battle shortly after birth.
o The Protoss, after a long civil war between themselves, has a short unity between the Dark Templar and the Khalai’s Templar, killing off a few Cerebrates on Aiur and other planets in order to cripple the Overmind
Zeratul and Tassadar splinter into two hunting groups, leading a group of Templar from both cultures to terminate a large selection of Cerebrates.
Meeting against great resilience, the Zerg begin to find many of their Broods to be rapidly depleting more than the Overmind can handle, causing a long coma-like state occur afterwards.
In response, a quick unity of Tassadar and Zeratul’s forces sends an attack upon the Overmind, leading to many Protoss dying in the process due to the massive amounts of Broods around the Overmind.
• After both sides take heavy casualties, the Zerg seem to have the upper hand; in response, the Dark Templar, Zeratul, sends himself and a squad of Dark Templar to execute the Overmind, making sure that the form the Overmind takes collapses.
The End of the Great War marks when Zeratul sacrifices himself, and exterminates the Overmind, with Zeratul dying due to the Zerg ripping them to shreds.
- The Brood War: The Great War ends with the death of the Overmind; large amounts of Broods begin to go haywire due to the Will that unified all of them dying, causing the Zerg to go into a massive rampage than not only tears itself apart, but in great fury begin to do greater damage to both the Terrans and the Protoss in response.
o The Broods by the Terrans begin to go into a massive rampage, where they begin to tear apart each other, causing a few of the Broods in the Korpulu Sector to die.
Many of the Broods that went Psycho stabilize the quickest out of all the Zerg, due to the presence of other Cerebrate’s and the broadcast of the Overmind being farther from where the Korpulu Broods were.
The Broods begin to reach a state in which the Extermination of the Terrans become a top priority, causing the Broods to evolve and become even more dangerous.


• The Mutation of the Broods causes issues in the mutated broods, with many of them require massive amount of changes in order to compensate what they seek to accomplish.
Many of the Broods left to face the Terrans after the whiplash of the fallen will begin to tear about the Terrans even more, due to the Umojans beginning an open revolt against the Dominion to take place as the dominant power.
The Later stages of the Umojans taking hold of the Dominion as the rulers, instead of Mengsk, will cause Mengsk to depart and leave much of what he made, while the Umojans rule and begin the process and converting the Broods that are attacking the Terrans to become the first Zerg that become part of the Umojan’s ruling Dominion.
• As the Umojans begin to rule the Dominion as the No. 1 powerhouse, a former Confederate Marshal, Jim Raynor of the Raynor’s Raiders, begin to help lead the new Dominion.
o The Broods that were facing against the Dark Templar begin to fall apart the hardest, with the Dark Templar taking advantage of this and killing off many of the Broods before the Broods have a chance to kill each other off.
The Dark Templar begin to attack the Cerebrates that are going Haywire from the Overmind’s death, and making many of the Zerg become Feral.
Many of the Dark Templar are not sure as to why many of the Zerg have come in the first place, and are surprised when they see the Zerg begin to fall down into chaos
• This causes many of the Dark Templar to meet up with each other, to discuss the issue and form an expeditionary force to find the cause and origins of the Zerg that have come to attack her.
Many of the Broods fall into a Feral-Like state, leaving many Dark Templar to begin to study the Zerg while a fleet is formed to look at where the Zerg came from.
• The Dark Templar begin to use their Argus Crystals and their current technology in order to study the enemy that began their invasion against them.
• The discovery of the Assimilated Terrans and the Cerebrates having elements of Psionic Prowess.
The Broods that are still functioning and pull themselves back together after the whiplash begin to pull forward, and pull back towards places where the Broods can hide and build up their forces, in order to deal with their serious threat.


o The Cerebrates on the Hive Worlds get a large amount of civil war on their worlds, with little to no issue with the Protoss that are left on their worlds.
Many of the Cerebrates begin to have civil wars in order to find the new ruler of the Swarm, with many of them fighting against each other due to the different personalities that befall them.
The Zerg Broods on the Hive Worlds are noted to be left alone by both Terrans and Protoss during the early stages of the Brood War, however meet large issue when the Umojans begin to build up their Dominion, taking the Zerg from the Hives in order to increase their forces.
o The Broods of Aiur and other Khalai Worlds have the greatest of consequences, due to them feeling the death of the Overmind greater than any other Brood in the Milky Way Galaxy.
The Cerebrates that were closest to the Overmind had the worst of it, reaching towards a mental insanity that causes their Broods to malfunction.
Many of the Cerebrates that are farther away are changed dramatically by the Overmind’s death, although do not reach the same level of insanity as the closer ones have taken
• Many of the Broods that were safe from being broken down began to have a rapid personality change within the Cerebrates, due to the impact of the Overmind’s final moments and its state during its death by Zeratul and his comrades left a permanent mark that cause the Cerebrates to transform into something altogether.
The Broods that are on the other worlds held by the Khalai begin to follow their last objective that was set upon to them, to exterminate the Khalai Protoss and make way for the Assimilation of the Protoss.
o Many of the Feral Broods are often led by many different Aged Overlords that cause small pockets of Hives to arise, making different Hives able to survive for a short amount of time; the use of Assimilated also causes the consequences of the Feral Assimilated on planets such as Aiur and other Protoss-held worlds to become a major issue for everyone.
Many of the Aged Overlords begin to try and survive against everything around them, from the Feral Zerg to the Sane and Insane Zerg.
Many also have to try and survive against the Protoss and the Terrans for the most part, due to them often being around during their fall.
The Assimilated Terrans that have become Feral, due to the lack of Cerebrates, have begun a severe amount of rampage across the worlds they inhabit, leading to many psionic storms that cause strife for all life.


• The Conexus start to unite together in order to bring down their enemies, using the feral zergs and making an army of both themselves and the minions that they assisted before.
o They begin to control many of the hives that had been lead by a Brood’s Cerebrate and its Overlords, beginning a vast extermination of the Remaining Overlords.
Many of the taken hives start to build more Conexus, in order to increase their prowess.
o The Conexus begin to build their numbers in order to lead the many hives, using their combined might to lead their own Broods alone.
• The Commisceo have begun to use their giant minds to begin to build up the feral Zerg, and begun a war with the remaining Broods led by the Cerebrates.
o The Commisceo use their psionic superiority in order to deal with the Cerebrate’s superiority in numbers and wisdom.
o The Commisceo begin to think for themselves quite easily, due to their form being completely a sentient brain.
o The Commisceo begin to try and take many of the fallen hives and build their own Broods.
o These Feral Commisceos are beginning to build Feral Broods and Hives into functional Broods once more given to their image.
o The Zerg begin to fold into many different individual factions, with many of them warring to see what shall be the new Will of the swarm.
o The amount of Civil War amongst the Zerg partially halts for most of them, due to the threats of the other races, both the Terrans and the Protoss, which the Zerg deem a necessity in order to defend themselves first, before they continue their civil battles for dominance over the entire race.
o The Brood Wars end with many of the Zerg decimating the Terrans that have tried to control them, along with many of them beginning to create a new Overmind that has begun to embody the swarm.

Things to Note within Terran History
Pre-Great War – The Arrival of the Zerg, to the Fall of Chau Sara
- The Terran Kel-Morians and Independent Colonies are Invaded by Zerg


o The Kel-Morians use their large amount of Mines and Goliaths to push the Vanguard Broods, with mostly loses.
o The Independent Colonies use basic weaponry in order to defend themselves, although unlike the Kel-Morians fall easier.
o Many of the colonies try to flee to other worlds, though the Vanguard Broods stop them with large amounts of mutalisks and/or scourge.
- The Umojan’s and Confederacy’s covert scientists and military are experimenting on the Zerg that they have.
o The Confederacy have been taking the Zerg in order to study the Zerg’s Hivemind mentality, as well as their link towards Psionic Potentials.
o The Umojans have been experimenting on the Zerg to study their biology, in order to understand the enemy threat and take measures to eliminate them.
- The Umojans have been funding Kel-Morian and Independent Colonies with Umojan resources, offering them military technology and even men in order to deal with the Zerg Threat.
o Many of the forces often have allied Umojan Forces that usually use their ground forces to decimate the Zerg as much as possible.
o The Umojans try to use their cancerous experiments in order to damage the Zerg, cripple them with diseases within the Broods.
- The Confederacy has been making sure that all information of the Zerg has been shut down, in order to keep the Alien Species quiet, as well as blocking and Terrans from trying to spread this information.
o The Confederacy has been decimating Terran Colony Fleets that have been trying to flee from the Zerg.
o The Confederacy has been decimating large amounts of Zerg Forces with the full force of their squadrons they send to take care of them.
o Many of the Confederacy has been sent to test the might of the swarm, as well as trying to find ways to cripple and decimate them, if they cannot use them.
- The Three Factions fighting the Zerg during the Pre-Great War are usually hidden from most Terrans across the Korpulu Sector, until the fall of Chau Sara
o Chau Sara was incinerated by a large fleet of an alien force, which has not been identified as anything both the Protoss. With the Protoss incinerating Chau Sara, the Terrans are now aware of the Protoss Threat.
The Kel-Morians are still dealing with the Vanguard Broods, which they have begun to supply their colonies with more Military Technology, although restrained from giving all to them due to the Confederacy.


• The Kel-Morian Colonies are given Reaper and Vindicators to deal with the Zerg Threat, along with pulling their Jolly Rogers in order to assist.
The Umojan Colonies are beginning to get touched by the Zerg, which the Umojans are now forced to bring out their military to take care of the alien menace.
• Many of the Umojan Colonies are given all the required factory tech in order to deal with the Zerg, as well as the basics of Barracks tech
• The Umojan Protectorate has begun to send its own military forces to deal with the Zerg Threat, beginning to send their military might to decimate the Swarm.
The Confederacy has begun to send all of its Squadrons to protect the Core Worlds, while decimating the Zerg on Fringe Worlds.
• The Confederate Fringe Worlds have many of its colonies left for dead against the Zerg.
• The Confederate Fringe Worlds have often times been experiments to things such as the Psi Emitter, in order to practise using the Zerg.
The Sons of Korhal save a few colonial forces, and begins its operation for the great plan to remove the Confederacy for good.
• The Sons of Korhal obtains the Psi Emitter, and uses in on Antiga Prime and Tarsonis to send the Zerg Forces against the Confederacy.
The Zerg keeps sending its might against the Terrans, with many of the Broods Decimating the Terran Worlds until, finally, the Fall of Tarsonis happens, and billions die at once due to the Zerg.
• The Sons of Korhal set up the Psi Emitters on Tarsonis and its Space Platforms.
• The Protoss try to save the Confederacy, yet the Sons of Korhal fight against the Protoss long enough for the Zerg to attack with full force.
• The Confederate Citizens that have been split away from the Squadrons are left defending themselves against the Zerg.
o The Dominion, formerly the Sons of Korhal, begins to decimate the remaining Confederate loyalists, and begin to unite the Confederate Remnants into their fold in order to take control of the Korpulu Sector.
Arcturus Mengsk crowns himself as the new Emperor, and begins to remove the few oppositions left and bring the rest under his wing.


The Kel-Morians agree to join the Dominion by donating resources for the exchange of military assistance against the Zerg.
• The Kel-Morians begin to rise as a military force, after the fall of the Confederacy, and has begun to release their fleet against the Zerg.
• The Kel-Morians fight against the Zerg with Dominion Forces.
The Umojans are forced to join the Dominion with the threat of decimation, with the Dominion forcefully taking their colonies.
• The Umojans begin to donate their technology and military service to the Dominion, in order to fight the Zerg.
o The Dominion fights against the remaining Zerg Broods that have been left to exterminate the Terran Race as a whole.
The Few Confederate Opposition and other rebel groups, such as Raynor’s Raiders, are still a prominent threat for the Dominion.
- The Overmind dies, leading to the Broods fighting against each other, as well as the rise of Feral Zerg becoming an uncommon, to common sight.
o The Umojans take the opportunity to take rise.
They begin to release and in script military forces of the Dominion into their own, taking Braxis and Dylar IX from the Dominion.
The Umojans begin to combine their research and the Confederacy’s in order to enslave the Zerg and use them for their arsenal.
The Umojans begin to attack Korhal IV, after bringing many into their fold, and attack Korhal IV headfirst to take the Emperor, Arcturus.
o Emperor Mengsk flees in his battlecruiser with a few loyalists, leaving the Terran Dominion under the hands of the Umojan Protectorate.
The Kel-Morians and the Confederates that were under the Dominion are now loyal to the Umojan Protectorate.
o The Umojan Protectorate enslaves a large amount of the Zerg within Terran Space, and has begun to remove the Zerg from Terran Space.
The Umojans have begun to use the Zerg in order to secure the Terrans.
Many of the Terrans are concerned about the use of Zerg being used by anyone as a military asset.
Civil Uprises begin to start between Xenophobics, Dominion Loyalists, and Concerned Citizens.


• Umojans began to lose many supporters, after the Zerg become less of a threat.
o A Civil War begins between the Terrans, with the Dominion, Confederacy, and Umojans being at each other’s throats, as well as their royalists. Much of the Independent and Kel-Morian colonies stay away from the impact.
- The Brood Wars end with the Terrans having a civil strife amongst each other, with the Zerg beginning to heal themselves and getting ready to react the their brethren’s enslavement.



If you would like to discuss this here, then please go ahead! If you would like to discuss this in the other thread I made for it, that is fine too. Have fun!

[Undeadprotoss]

*dragoon voice* "I have returned"

The podcast is on! And it actually dosen't even require Skype this time, i found a better program for it. I'm willing to discuss whatever you guys want to. Enumrate sounds like a great starting point, maybe we could do a podcast on that?

[Nissa]

...I'm not going to lie, I'm not terribly interested in Enumerate. I mean, do it if you want, but most SC fans probably aren't familiar enough with it to want to hear a podcast on it. I recommend going over more common interest topics and then coming back to Enumerate once you have a routine down, and hopefully a fanbase.