Making a Starcraft Youtube Channel [Archive]

Undeadprotoss

10-31-2017, 12:14 AM

For years now, I've noticed a fairly dramatic turn with how Blizzard games are produced in terms of world-building, art, and story (and related gameplay mechanics) as i'm sure you all have too.

I've also noticed that Starcraft youtube seems to be almost entirely dominated by e-sports, per it's nature as a competitive game. I want to represent the rich lore of SC1 and compare it to SC2. I want to really dive deep into how the campaigns of SC2 work and see where they fail and have fault-lines, versus what they do right. I really care about the future of this franchise, But beyond that, I also just love talking to people about it, and the mutual feeling of catharsis you get when you can determine how a particular element of Starcraft is working.

The currently inactive YouTube channel is called SideCraft, and I plan to talk about Warcraft, Diablo, and possibly other games/series in the future.

So my question to you guys is: What would you want to have videos about? Also, what should I do to get started if anyone has experience in this realm. Right now my current topics are:

Evolution of marines in starcraft
Dark Templar vs Tal'Darim
How Dark Templar were portrayed in SC1 vs SC2
Artistic influences of SC1
Zerg portrayals in SC1 vs SC2.
Importance of cutscenes in SC1
Voice acting of Protoss in SC1 vs SC2

I have tons of ideas, and I am in no way limiting myself to the narrow range I've described thus far. What do you guys think?

Turalyon

10-31-2017, 04:45 AM

Mislagnissa

10-31-2017, 02:15 PM

The youtuber uanime1 is currently releasing a series that examines the nonsensical plot of StarCraft 2. You may want to get in touch with him.

Other resources I would recommend:

https://starcraftiitroubles.wordpress.com/
The UA plays starcraft threads on spacebattles, which provide plot analysis. (warning, image heavy)

Otherwise, my main suggestions are:

The cinematics were shoehorned
Something to note about the cinematics in SC1 is that they were made without discussing with the writers, so the plot of the game was tweaked to account for them. The Amerigo cinematic is a particular offender, since the invasion of the Amerigo was redundant due to the Zerg previously taking the Ghost Academy on Tarsonis (http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Ghost_Academy_(installation)).

The Starcraft story changed over development, for the worse
The story of StarCraft has undergone dramatic changes across the manual, the game, and the sequels. That is something I think could be explored, especially where the format of the game harms the narrative.

To wit, there is a massive disconnect between the Terran storyline and the Zerg/Protoss war. After the aliens leave the Koprulu sector (which is poorly explained, especially the Protoss retreat considering their obviously superior firepower), there is no reason for the Terrans to remain involved in the overarching narrative. The inclusion of Raynor in Episodes 2 and 3 feels fake and forced when he should really be fighting Mengsk.

The Zerg campaign in Episode 2 is bland and boring. None of the characters are memorable except the Overmind and Kerry. Kerry's character is largely pointless and disappointing considering she undergoes zero development and contributes nothing to the narrative. The plot is an incoherent, rambling mess that serves nothing more than to set up plot points in future campaigns. All of this does a huge disservice to the Zerg.

The manual explains, in no uncertain terms, that the Zerg invaded the Koprulu sector to assimilate human psychic potential. The manual states the Zerg would not survive a war against the Protoss' superior technology and psychic powers without a counter. That suggests, to me, that the Zerg would build an army of psychic Zerg at the very least... of course the game forgets this and spirals into nonsense.

To a large degree this is due to the extremely compressed format of the original game. It's just the premise of a galactic war, not even the cliffnotes. To do a galactic war justice would require a much, much more detailed plot. You could make dozens of games about the invasion of the Koprulu sector and the Zerg/Protoss war. Realistically, the war would span a period of years or decades, dozens or hundreds of worlds, and Zerg would be fighting two fronts against the Terran Dominion and the Protoss Empire. The Terrans and Protoss will never ally after the genocide of Terran worlds by the Protoss, even assuming the Judicator didn't have their heads up their own asses.

The original game made no sense without reading the manual, playing the cut missions, or a reading supplementary material
The plot of StarCraft did not make much sense unless you read the manual. Surprisingly, a large number of people did not and thus had no idea why the Terrans were in the Koprulu sector, where the Zerg came from, what Tassadar was doing in Episode I, or why the Judicator disliked the dark templar. In fact, two missions were cut from Episode 1 that gave more context to the Antigan Revolt, which lasted for half a year (and no, the game does not give much in the way of dates). The game is so poorly contextualized that it is easy to believe everything happened over the course of a week or two, and the DC comic tie-in moronically retconned the length of the Antigan Revolt to a few days.

Brood War is a mess
The Brood War plot is laughably bad (https://superior-realities.com/2014/05/02/starcraft-im-just-going-to-say-it/). Not SC2 levels of stupid, but still ridiculous. It relies entirely on a series of deus ex machinas and similar contrivances, as well as forgetting what the writers previously wrote. Worst of all, it introduces new antagonists out of nowhere rather than building off of what existed before. The Umojan Protectorate mentioned in the original manual could have easily replaced the UED. Any random cerebrate could have replaced Duran, because the entire reason the Zerg even left Zerus was so they could assimilate the Protoss!

The games have no sense of scale
Dates were not given in the original game, but realistically the galactic war depicted there should last for years or decades. The official timeline has everything happen in a couple of months, maybe a year or two depending on the retcons.

The Terran worlds are repeatedly destroyed in the course of a couple years, but the Terran military suffers no apparent losses in every subsequent appearance.

Supplementary materials indicate there are dozens of Terran worlds in the Koprulu sector, hundreds of Protoss worlds on the galactic fringe, and "countless" worlds consumed by the Zerg as they traveled across the galaxy. The games would have you believe that the half-dozen planets depicted (Char, Aiur, Korhal, whatever) are the only planets in the universe.

Insurrection, at least the plot, is basically Starcraft done right
While Insurrection was a buggy mess, although some dude remastered it a few months ago, all of the major plot points were identical to those of Starcraft 1. The execution, however, was vastly superior. Insurrection took pains to show why the Confederacy were the bad guys (they were willing to kill innocents to prevent the risk of infestation), it foreshadowed and logically explained a Protoss civil war (the dialogues sounds like something out of Game of Thrones), it foreshadowed and depicted its own Brood War, it showed the dangerous power of Ghosts and justified Zerg interest in them, and it set up an alliance between Terran and Protoss that felt organic and natural.

Someone wrote a whole book about how to rewrite the series from the ground up
If you want a guide for how to write a good Starcraft storyline, then I would recommend Starcraft: Enumerate (https://us.battle.net/forums/en/sc2/topic/17606004934).

Undeadprotoss

10-31-2017, 05:14 PM

I might suggest that you consider Sc1 and BW as being separate from each other because that will allow you to talk about some more comparisons and similarities between all 3 works.

Are you focusing only on what is presented in the games and manuals? How much of the EU are you going to include into these discussions?

I'm kinda looking forward to this.

My main focus as of now is comparing the stuff that most people would be familiar with from the perspective of the average player, so mainly the games themselves, manuals, and possibly comics.

With that said though, i definitely would not have the EU off the table. I wouldn't mind reviewing SC1 novels, talking about the implications of the comics, etc. Honestly, it might be a good exercise to show how the Protoss, Zerg, and Terrans have been portrayed over the years.

Undeadprotoss

10-31-2017, 05:26 PM

Mislaganissa, thank you so much for the info. I just messaged uanime1 on YouTube and hopefully I can talk to him about this as well.

With regards to the finer plot details of SC1/BW and the cinematics, I think something that's so integral to how Starcraft 1 and a lot of other early blizzard games worked is that they really brought out the atmosphere through unique and substantive art, sound, and other motifs they used. Diablo 2 is a really good example of this, if one takes the plot of D2 separate from the rest of the game, it's fairly straightforward. You're on a hunt for the Mephisto, Diablo, and Baal. You find Tyrael who helps you out, and eventually you win. What really elevates that game is the atmosphere. The rich music and art style, the way gameplay incorporates RPG and combat elements, the conversations you have with the town-folk and the narration by Marius really propel that game into the entire experience and the story being really amazing even if the plot itself isn't overly grand (though it does have some interesting twists with Marius, which imo keeps it short, sweet, and creepy).

Same goes for the SC1 cinematics in my opinion. They made you attach certain emotions and connations to different enviornments and creatures. You learn to fear the Zerg when a Hydralisk kills Fenix and a pack of Zerg kill Lester and Sarge, not to mention the Battle on the Amerigo cinematic. The art, the story, everything blends together seamlessly to ON TOP of having interesting and compelling characters like Raynor, Zeratul, Aldaris, etc

Nolanstar

10-31-2017, 06:56 PM

If your going to do stuff like the evolution of marine armor/weaponry, and or zerg forms/purpose I would definitely be interested. Also be willing to pitch in if you wanted some opinions or another voice.

Nolanstar

10-31-2017, 07:09 PM

Intended to edit previous post, but wrong button...

If your actually going to go through with this, attempting to talk with Xiarobear, Gradius, etc might be a good way to get some diverse opinions, as well as give a somewhat-known voice.

Turalyon

11-01-2017, 04:18 AM

I agree with Undeadprotoss that part of what makes Blizz's earlier work memorable is that they relied on it being evocative. If you get the "feels" right, you can write any old nonsense and it'll still be accepted.

To wit, there is a massive disconnect between the Terran storyline and the Zerg/Protoss war. After the aliens leave the Koprulu sector (which is poorly explained, especially the Protoss retreat considering their obviously superior firepower), there is no reason for the Terrans to remain involved in the overarching narrative. The inclusion of Raynor in Episodes 2 and 3 feels fake and forced when he should really be fighting Mengsk.

This is more a limitation of how the story is initially setup though. It didn't help that the Terrans were initially billed as being comparatively weak, prone to in-fighting and easily crushed by either of the two alien powers. On a narrative level, the Terran race is really just a convenient plot device. Them being the "determinant" for the Zerg is just a conceit to include humans into the plot. Why? Because human characters act as a relatable touchstone/ a gateway into that universe. They're not really that important in the grand conflict between the two aliens anyway (as Sc1 eventually shows with Kerrigan not actually doing anything to sway things in favour to the Zerg despite being the determinant the Overmind sought), but they just happen to be there and get-in-the-way sometimes. In that regard, the inclusion of Raynor in the later campaigns (whilst arguably "forced/ fake"), is necessary to give the stakes a relatable and Terran perspective because the story is supposed to be about how these three species interact even though the actual narrative has already excluded any importance the Terrans might have had on it already.

The manual explains, in no uncertain terms, that the Zerg invaded the Koprulu sector to assimilate human psychic potential. The manual states from the Zerg/ Overmind perspective that they would not survive a war against the Protoss' superior technology and psychic powers without a counter.

Corrected for you. The distinction here is important because your assumption that the Zerg would not survive a war against the Protoss without a counter being an irrefutable fact since it originates from the omniscient manual narrator is false. The manual states that only the Overmind actually thinks this - and as the game story eventually shows us, its opinion is proven wrong.

The Umojan Protectorate mentioned in the original manual could have easily replaced the UED.

I think Mengsk would've been a better replacement for the UED role than the Umojan Protectorate. It would've given us a chance to be continuous with what came before and show us how big a real threat that he and the Koprulu Terrans (which were depicted as weaksauce in Sc1) could be with the "right" leadership.

Dates were not given in the original game, but realistically the galactic war depicted there should last for years or decades.

It wasn't really a galactic war to begin with since originally, all the K-sector Terran worlds were in the same system. The speed at which Sc1 events occurred was more justifiable in that respect because the scale was actually quite small (but no less epic). It's why the later retcons about Terran populations and planets being on whole different systems make it confusing. It's why it also makes the 4 year gap where no events of consequence happen hard to swallow (but apparently is enough time for someone to forgive a mass-murderer).

Mislagnissa

11-01-2017, 07:51 AM

This is more a limitation of how the story is initially setup though. It didn't help that the Terrans were initially billed as being comparatively weak, prone to in-fighting and easily crushed by either of the two alien powers. On a narrative level, the Terran race is really just a convenient plot device. Them being the "determinant" for the Zerg is just a conceit to include humans into the plot. Why? Because human characters act as a relatable touchstone/ a gateway into that universe. They're not really that important in the grand conflict between the two aliens anyway (as Sc1 eventually shows with Kerrigan not actually doing anything to sway things in favour to the Zerg despite being the determinant the Overmind sought), but they just happen to be there and get-in-the-way sometimes. In that regard, the inclusion of Raynor in the later campaigns (whilst arguably "forced/ fake"), is necessary to give the stakes a relatable and Terran perspective because the story is supposed to be about how these three species interact even though the actual narrative has already excluded any importance the Terrans might have had on it already. You can analyze it all you want, but the story is poorly put together. It falls apart if you try to analyze it on its own merits: if the Zerg were just looking for Aiur, why did they invade the Koprulu sector? How could they know about the Protoss but not that they lived in the galactic fringe? How come it took them millions of years to find Protoss space when the Zerg clearly have enough numbers to send a probe to every one of the ~400 billion stars in the galaxy?

Because of the last-minute retcons to the game script, the inclusion of Terrans is invalidated and pointless. This is why I prefer Enumerate's revision, which both makes Terrans actually relevant to the Zerg war effort and keeps them involved in the war against the Zerg after the initial invasion.

But then, what would you expect when Metzen admitted at a Blizzcon that he forgot what he wrote and some random guy on the internet keeps 150 pages of notes?

Corrected for you. The distinction here is important because your assumption that the Zerg would not survive a war against the Protoss without a counter being an irrefutable fact since it originates from the omniscient manual narrator is false. The manual states that only the Overmind actually thinks this - and as the game story eventually shows us, its opinion is proven wrong. "Proven wrong" because the game script retconned from the manual and because the game mechanics may differ from the fluff (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GameplayAndStorySegregation). IIRC, Metzen said that game mechanics trump fluff or something.

In the backstory, the First Age Protoss easily killed droves of xel'naga before the latter escaped. The Zerg sacrificed billions of their own to crack open the xel'naga world ships. Even though the Second Age Protoss lost a lot of their knowledge and tech, what they rediscovered was enough to let them build a fleet of planet killers. The Zerg clearly have no defense against this. The only reason the Protoss lost the Koprulu sector was because Tassadar refused to commit genocide, and the only reason the fleet was recalled was due to embarrassment. It makes no sense for the Zerg to defeat the Protoss on Aiur so easily unless they were jamming the Psi Matrix the Protoss used to coordinate their fleet of planet killers, which is suggested by the cinematic showing Fenix's psi blade shutting off.

Again, Enumerate addresses this by explaining that the Zerg used Terran psionics and stolen khaydarin crystals to wage electronic warfare against the Psi Matrix to keep the Protoss from simply blasting them to smithereens. The Zerg go so far as to create Zerg counterparts of most Protoss units as counters, including highly destructive superweapons and so forth.

I think Mengsk would've been a better replacement for the UED role than the Umojan Protectorate. It would've given us a chance to be continuous with what came before and show us how big a real threat that he and the Koprulu Terrans (which were depicted as weaksauce in Sc1) could be with the "right" leadership.Enumerate spends a lot of words on explaining this. It's explained that the Kel-Morians and Umojans joined the Dominion as clients. The Umojans got the Confederacy's Zerg research, which they combined with their own ostensibly to assist the Dominion in stopping the Zerg onslaught by developing anti-Zerg weapons. The democratic Umojans disagree with Mengsk's hypocritical authoritarianism, so they secretly fund rebels like Raynor and develop an effective means of controlling feral Zerg during the Brood Wars. When the Umojans later wage open war against the Dominion using enslaved Zerg, it provokes a huge ethics debate among the populace.

It wasn't really a galactic war to begin with since originally, all the K-sector Terran worlds were in the same system. The speed at which Sc1 events occurred was more justifiable in that respect because the scale was actually quite small (but no less epic). It's why the later retcons about Terran populations and planets being on whole different systems make it confusing. It's why it also makes the 4 year gap where no events of consequence happen hard to swallow (but apparently is enough time for someone to forgive a mass-murderer).I meant galactic war in the sense that the Zerg and Protoss are the biggest powers in the galaxy and the Protoss Empire covers hundreds of worlds and apparently multiple client races. Not that this ever shows up in the game, which is why the scale of SC1 is way too small.

It does not make sense that all the K-sector worlds were in the same system. That's one of the retcons that I can accept, since it makes something unrealistic less so.

Turalyon

11-01-2017, 10:07 AM

if the Zerg were just looking for Aiur, why did they invade the Koprulu sector?

These two things are not mutually exclusive "ends" on their own. Both of these are a means to a singular end - that end being the assimilation of Protoss.

How could they know about the Protoss but not that they lived in the galactic fringe?

Well, they knew enough to eventually find them in actuality. Therefore, they must have known where the Protoss were in a general sense when they first started moving out.

How come it took them millions of years to find Protoss space when the Zerg clearly have enough numbers to send a probe to every one of the ~400 billion stars in the galaxy?

Easy. Stellar drift, that the Zerg are not innumerable or everywhere at once, that travel and communication times are not instantaneous or that the Overmind spent that time, you know, wisely preparing for what could be the greatest conflict it would ever face?

"Proven wrong" because the game script retconned from the manual and because the game mechanics may differ from the fluff (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GameplayAndStorySegregation). IIRC, Metzen said that game mechanics trump fluff or something.

I'm claiming "death of the author" here. From what we have to go on and nothing else, the "determinant" the Overmind wants and the supposed benefit of it is just a subjective fancy to assuage its own fear of the Protoss. Its "importance" is not to be taken as an objective, be-all/end-all fact. That the game goes to subvert this expectation (well, at least it does to me at any rate) by having the determinant not be that crash-hot and actually be the cause of the Overminds own downfall, is somewhat ironically poetic.

In the backstory, the First Age Protoss easily killed droves of xel'naga before the latter escaped. The Zerg sacrificed billions of their own to crack open the xel'naga world ships. Even though the Second Age Protoss lost a lot of their knowledge and tech, what they rediscovered was enough to let them build a fleet of planet killers. The Zerg clearly have no defense against this. The only reason the Protoss lost the Koprulu sector was because Tassadar refused to commit genocide, and the only reason the fleet was recalled was due to embarrassment. It makes no sense for the Zerg to defeat the Protoss on Aiur so easily unless they were jamming the Psi Matrix the Protoss used to coordinate their fleet of planet killers, which is suggested by the cinematic showing Fenix's psi blade shutting off.

So? The Overmind was well and truly aware of the might the Protoss possessed. Their infestation of Terran worlds was not only a way to investigate the Terran psionic potential but to test and observe how the Protoss would react. The Overmind was expecting those first forays to fail. Besides "Planet killers" are only useful on stationary targets and the Zerg is a mobile force made up of many individual units acting as one whole unit. The fact that they spent and probably have many years worth of resources that they've accumulated and prepared for before coming to confront the Protoss is another distinct advantage the Zerg have.

As to the Zerg defeating the Protoss on Aiur so easily with their initial invasion, the Protoss were not expecting a blitzkreig tactic from the Zerg. After that, the Protoss were actually holding their own against the Zerg. They were equally matched on the ground because the Protoss couldn't exactly turn their "Planet Killers" on their own planet. Also, I'd like to think that the Conclave/Aldaris are competent, speaking from some element of truth and not blatantly stupid or lying to themselves when it says they were "convinced that its strategems are winning the war against the Zerg" when they go off on the hunt for Tassadar.

The Protoss are only actually losing to the Zerg on Aiur when Tassadar is brought back to Aiur and incites insurrection amongst their own ranks. Their forces are spent fighting each other and not the Zerg. This has thematic weight because the Protoss are losing because they become un-unified. In contrast, Tthe Zerg have always been largely unified, which is partly why they make such progress in the war up to that point.

As to the Psi Matrix theory being the "overt" reason for why the Protoss are losing, it's much like Visions of Khas' theory where he suspects that this was the reason for why the Overmind invasion required this intricate setup to make it manifest on Aiur. For me, I can take it or leave it, though I probably lean slightly more toward leaving it because its kinda plot contrivance-y.

Enumerate spends a lot of words on explaining this. It's explained that the Kel-Morians and Umojans joined the Dominion as clients. The Umojans got the Confederacy's Zerg research, which they combined with their own ostensibly to assist the Dominion in stopping the Zerg onslaught by developing anti-Zerg weapons. The democratic Umojans disagree with Mengsk's hypocritical authoritarianism, so they secretly fund rebels like Raynor and develop an effective means of controlling feral Zerg during the Brood Wars. When the Umojans later wage open war against the Dominion using enslaved Zerg, it provokes a huge ethics debate among the populace.

Hold on. Didn't you just complain that the Sc1 story we got requires supplementary material like the manual to understand? Yet here you go on and espouse this particular piece of supplementary material which is fundamental in understanding and establishing the Umojans for the UED role in this revised take on BW. Smells fishy to me.

Not that this ever shows up in the game, which is why the scale of SC1 is way too small.

It does not make sense that all the K-sector worlds were in the same system. That's one of the retcons that I can accept, since it makes something unrealistic less so.

Be that as it may, the established scale of Sc1 was relatively "small" from the get go. Just because it's inconvenient from what you prefer doesn't make it any less true or "unrealistic".

Visions of Khas

11-01-2017, 01:06 PM

If your going to do stuff like the evolution of marine armor/weaponry, and or zerg forms/purpose I would definitely be interested.
This goes triple for me!

Mislagnissa

11-01-2017, 01:56 PM

Hold on. Didn't you just complain that the Sc1 story we got requires supplementary material like the manual to understand? Yet here you go on and espouse this particular piece of supplementary material which is fundamental in understanding and establishing the Umojans for the UED role in this revised take on BW. Smells fishy to me.The two situations are not comparable. Starcraft is a published game that, prior to the proliferation of online retail and PDF documents, relied on a physical manual which could be easily lost. Failing to read the manual meant that the player would not know key plot points and thus alter their view of game events. Mass Recall, a remake of SC1, includes excerpts from the original manual to explain key plot points and solves that problem.

I am arguing that fans and mapmakers should throw out the canon Starcraft plot and reboot it based on a 150 page fanfic bible that is easily accessible on the internet. Here are the links: http://fav.me/d8svb5e, http://fav.me/d8ve3sv. The SC:EN bible is only necessary to read if you are trying to build a campaign based on it (or, like me, arguing in favor of it). If you are playing that campaign, a competent writer should provide enough context to understand the plot of the campaign. SC2 conveniently provides an in-game text interface which mapmakers may use to convey exposition and explanations.

Gradius

11-01-2017, 02:21 PM

Mislagnissa

11-01-2017, 08:05 PM

^—there’s nothing “easily accessible” about an external 150 page doc that you have to hunt down separately from the main product.

Most mapmakers from now on are going to base their product on SC2, because it’s canon and the only thing 99.9 percent of players have seen. That’s kinda why I gave up on the whole scene. The foundation is rubble at this point, and not really the same universe I got into.

There really are not that many custom campaigns, at least compared to SC1. The SC1 fan campaign listing has over a hundred and fifty complete campaigns, while the SC2 custom campaign initiative has two dozen complete campaigns. Most custom campaigns that I have seen play fast and loose with canon due to ignorance or willful disregard. Considering that SC2 is free to play without the official campaigns, I doubt most players are even familiar with the plot beyond skimming wikipedia. Custom campaigns, like Mass Recall, are more accessible by virtue of being free.

The Proditor campaign has Kerrigan visiting Aiur during Ep3 and infesting the Praetor of Albion, though the epilogue makes references to various threads from the EU. The Annihilation campaign introduces the Terran RSSI government/megacorp, the Protoss Idu'ran tribe, and the Zerg Daggerfang brood, all of whom have backstories that blatantly contradict canon. The Time Convergence campaign has Abathur fighting Soviet Russia on Earth and building an army of Zerg using soylent green. The Brood campaign has a brood mother stealing the essence of a hybrid and building an army of them. Replicant, which is supposed to be a sequel to SC2, goes on a series of bizarre tangents that only loosely relate to anything that came before.

Enumerate provides a solid foundation on which to build campaigns while providing an immense amount of freedom due to the massive scales involved. Replies in the original bnet thread were universally positive. Considering the existing disregard for canon, I do not see why it would be difficult to convince mapmakers to adopt the timeline. At the very least it allows them to at least pretend they share the same universe by referencing the same overarching conflicts.

Gradius

11-01-2017, 08:42 PM

I do not see why it would be difficult to convince mapmakers to adopt the timeline.
Because of all these reasons you just listed:

The Proditor campaign has Kerrigan visiting Aiur during Ep3 and infesting the Praetor of Albion, though the epilogue makes references to various threads from the EU. The Annihilation campaign introduces the Terran RSSI government/megacorp, the Protoss Idu'ran tribe, and the Zerg Daggerfang brood, all of whom have backstories that blatantly contradict canon. The Time Convergence campaign has Abathur fighting Soviet Russia on Earth and building an army of Zerg using soylent green. The Brood campaign has a brood mother stealing the essence of a hybrid and building an army of them. Replicant, which is supposed to be a sequel to SC2, goes on a series of bizarre tangents that only loosely relate to anything that came before.

If they can't even adhere to basic canon, why in the world would they go above and beyond to make sure their missions are in line with a non-canon 150 page document?

Don't get me wrong, I think it'd be cool, but it's wishful thinking.

Turalyon

11-02-2017, 12:51 AM

The two situations are not comparable. Starcraft is a published game that, prior to the proliferation of online retail and PDF documents, relied on a physical manual which could be easily lost. Failing to read the manual meant that the player would not know key plot points and thus alter their view of game events. Mass Recall, a remake of SC1, includes excerpts from the original manual to explain key plot points and solves that problem.

I am arguing that fans and mapmakers should throw out the canon Starcraft plot and reboot it based on a 150 page fanfic bible that is easily accessible on the internet. Here are the links: http://fav.me/d8svb5e, http://fav.me/d8ve3sv. The SC:EN bible is only necessary to read if you are trying to build a campaign based on it (or, like me, arguing in favor of it). If you are playing that campaign, a competent writer should provide enough context to understand the plot of the campaign. SC2 conveniently provides an in-game text interface which mapmakers may use to convey exposition and explanations.

I don't even know where to begin...

The Starcraft manual is an easy find. Just Google it and the pdf of it is on the top of the list. It's also much easier to read digest than this "150 page fanfic bible" you propose.

The Sc1 plot is really not that complicated to follow and the story has enough context alone to be understandable even without the manual/minutiae. That's not to say that it isn't filled with narrative conceits, fridge moments and many other tropes that all fiction is made up of though.

Throwing out the canon Sc plot only to make it something else makes me wonder whether your time is better spent just creating a new separate universe altogether. If one can't even agree and adhere to the fundamentals of what was presented in Starcraft originally, flawed though it may be, is it right to even call it Starcraft anymore? I mean, Sc2 was a result of this kind of mindset afterall...

Lastly, if you form a campaign around a 150-page revisionist take on Sc history, there will be people that will say that this doesn't gel with Starcraft 1 or "I don't get it" because they didn't know they had to read a text book to understand it.

Mislagnissa

11-02-2017, 07:45 AM

Because of all these reasons you just listed:

If they can't even adhere to basic canon, why in the world would they go above and beyond to make sure their missions are in line with a non-canon 150 page document?

Don't get me wrong, I think it'd be cool, but it's wishful thinking.

Yeah, the 150 page document is imposing. The timeline document, at the second link I gave http://fav.me/d8ve3sv, is only a few pages in length and includes the main points. The big book gives lots of details on culture and tech trees, but that sort of information is only necessary if you want to go all out on the world building.

I don't even know where to begin...

The Starcraft manual is an easy find. Just Google it and the pdf of it is on the top of the list. It's also much easier to read digest than this "150 page fanfic bible" you propose.SC:EN follows through with the setup presented in the original manual, rather than making bizarre changes the SC1 game script did or having new villains crawl out of the woodwork. SC:EN does not throw out the canon plot, but salvages it.

Zerg invade K-sec to assimilate human psychic potential, Protoss try to stop Zerg without killing Terrans, Terrans fight free for all for survival and independence, Zerg built army of doom, Zerg invade Protoss Empire, Zerg invade Dark Templar, Zerg plunder ancient ruins of first age Protoss Empire and Xel'naga, Protoss fight civil war due to bad memories of psionic storms, Protoss band together and fight last ditch, Zerg Overmind killed, Zerg broods turn on one another, Terrans and Protoss struggle to survive, Terrans and Protoss enslave Zerg, Zerg eventually reunite under new Overmind, Terrans and Protoss finally build alliance to fight Zerg, ending ambiguous...

It reads almost like a cliffnotes version of canon.

Lastly, if you form a campaign around a 150-page revisionist take on Sc history, there will be people that will say that this doesn't gel with Starcraft 1 or "I don't get it" because they didn't know they had to read a text book to understand it.The timeline document, only a few pages, is enough to understand the intentions. It follows the same broad strokes as the games without all the stupid.

EDIT: To be entirely honest, there's no satisfactory way to continue the Starcraft story because the writers wrote themselves into a corner. Since this is Blizzard we're talking about, they'll probably just add another round of retcons and write a generic story where yet another galactic space monster comes out of the woodwork. At this point I would not be surprised if they pulled another Warcraft 2/3 (which introduced Lordaeron and Kalimdor) and retcon the K-sec conflicts to the boondocks while bigger galactic politics went on in the background.

Nissa

11-02-2017, 06:29 PM

Mislagnissa

11-02-2017, 06:55 PM

They certainly did write themselves into a corner, but the only real way out was to make the hybrids interesting and figure out the rest of the plot from there. All the rest of the problems arise from trying to retcon things: sudden Raynor/Kerri romance, Mengsk is now idiot, Zeratul forgot everything, Overmind isn't the real baddie, etc.

("Mislagnissa"....?)

The retcons started in SC1, probably because of Metzen's meddling. Kerry became Zerg Jesus but contributed nothing to the plot. Raynor and Duke were shoehorned into Episodes 2 and 3.

Brood War dropped the UED out of nowhere despite the KMC and Umojans already existing. Kerry took over the Zerg, destroying everything that made them interesting. The Protoss wasted screen time with a magical macguffin on Shakuras.

SC2 ignored the economic and political fallout and feels like it takes place directly after Episode 1. Amon is basically a cheap substitute for both the Overmind and the Burning Legion.

It's not a stable foundation, but in terms of raising the stakes in SC3 it's easy to introduce new Terran, Zerg and Protoss factions based on the forgotten lore tidbit that all three are supposed to have huge galactic empires outside the Koprulu sector. The UED apparently controls loads of colonies and travels 60k light years in a matter of months, the Zerg consumed literally countless worlds over a bazillion years, and the Protoss rule exactly an eighth of the galaxy (~50 billion star systems).

It's great for continuing a franchise, but it makes the Koprulu wars look absurdly small-minded. What was the rest of the galaxy doing while Amon was pursuing his personal vendetta on Aiur? Why did Kerry think she ruled the universe? There must be trillions of Protoss and googleplexes of Zerg that have no idea they exist.

Gradius

11-02-2017, 07:34 PM

Nolanstar

11-02-2017, 07:45 PM

Hah! I knew you two weren't the same person. :P

Completely different writing style, attitude and posting habits. Unless Nissa has had an alternate personality manifest or an evil twin appear...

Gradius

11-02-2017, 10:30 PM

Completely different writing style, attitude and posting habits. Unless Nissa has had an alternate personality manifest or an evil twin appear...
Those are just ploys meant to throw you off course.

Unless this is all another ploy. :/

Turalyon

11-03-2017, 04:52 AM

rather than making bizarre changes the SC1 game script did or having new villains crawl out of the woodwork. SC:EN does not throw out the canon plot

What you call "bizzare" does not necessarily mean nonsensical though. There is nothing in the Sc1 plot that can't be easily tied back to the manual. If you're talking about BW, then you have more of an objective case.

To be entirely honest, there's no satisfactory way to continue the Starcraft story because the writers wrote themselves into a corner.

This was more apparent in BW though. The ending of Sc1 implies things returning to the initial/pre Sc1 status quo, albeit with all 3 species having been dealt massive blows to each other. The end of BW has a massive swing away from status quo by having Kerrigan and the Zerg being extraordinarily overpowered and dominating the most powerful representations of the other two species. Such huge swings away from status quo often indicate that a story is coming to a point/conclusion and BWs ending does often feel like a pointed grim-dark finale than anything else (whether one prefers it or not).

It seemed like there was only one direction it could go if it ever continued after BW and really, the story doesn't need to show that aspect because the message was clear: everyone aside from Zerg are fucked. That's why Sc2's setup seems artificial. It has to concoct an arbitrary 4 year period where nothing of significance seemingly happens aside from Raynor deciding to change his mind about Kerrigan, the Terrans rebuilding up to an insane degree and have convenient plot devices to hamper the Zerg all in order to justify itself/get out of that "corner".

The retcons started in SC1, probably because of Metzen's meddling.

What retcons are you referring to exactly? How "bad" are they really? I'm genuinely intrigued by what you mean here.

Kerry became Zerg Jesus but contributed nothing to the plot.

She's only "Jesus" in Sc2, where she's literally billed as the saviour of the Zerg. In Sc1 her supposed worth is a subjectively assigned one by the Overmind, not an actual objective one. The Overmind only feels fear at not being able to defeat the Protoss without this psionic determinant but it isn't an objective fact that the Zerg cannot still successfully fight the Protoss without such a thing, as the game then goes to show.

That she wasn't important to the plot in Sc1 was good in a way because it helped build the feel that no Sc1 character was truly privileged or protected with plot armour. Kerrigan having actual plot relevance resulted in all this "specialness" and hyper-inflated importance about her that we see in BW and Sc2. It's really this which makes it feel "unreal" and why people accuse her of Mary Sueness. Either way, your personal bias against the character is obviously showing because you complain about her having little to no actual contribution to the plot in Sc1 even though she does (albeit being right in saying that the plot focuses too much on her for no payoff at the end) and then complain when she does have an actual contribution to the plot later on in BW and Sc2 as being too much (albeit being right in saying the plot hinges on this one character above all else).

Raynor and Duke were shoehorned into Episodes 2 and 3.

There's nothing wrong with a cameo appearance, it's a well worn narrative conceit. That its purpose was to, blatantly or not, try and tie Rebel Yell into the wider narrative is the lesser evil than having no tie and being so standalone that one wonders why they even bothered to make it in the first place (eg: see how WoL and HotS each are completely superfluous and unnecessary to one's understanding of LotVs story). Also, their appearance don't make or break the plot either way nor is there appearance obscenely intrusive. I don't see this as the "massive problem" you're making it out to be.

Mislagnissa

11-03-2017, 01:57 PM

Turry, I can tell from your informed use of terms like Doylist and Watsonian that you are a smart person. Your analyses have always been the sort of thing I'd cite during an argument. I really think you should write a blog analyzing the SC plot.

I still think that trying to justify Metzen's writing, rather than shredding it, is a waste of your time. Would you have written the plot of SC1 the same way if you only had the manual to work from?

Something as simple as the psi-emitters and the Confederacy encountering Zerg in 2487 are examples of retcons that completely alter the course of events in the K-sec. They were never mentioned or foreshadowed in the manual but ended up being instrumental to the plot. (This was elaborated in the novels Uprising and Speed of Darkness.)

Without the psi-emitters to lure them, the Zerg would never have invaded as quickly as they did. The Protoss would not have acted as quickly as they did. You can see this in SC:EN with the pre-war period, as the author was apparently unaware of the psi-emitters jumpstarting the Zerg invasion.

That's a retcon I have no problem with, since it adds granularity to the broad strokes described in the manual.

Nobody other than Metzen would have thought of including Kerry, Raynor and Duke in Episode 2. If they did, it would not be as cheap cameos with no payoff. The Dominion would be sending armies to deal with the Zerg, who would be trying to wipe out mankind rather than forget that plot thread like Metzen did. (The manual explicitly states the Zerg destroy the species in their path that lack value to them, like non-psychic humans.)

Here's a thought experiment: what if SC1 was made today with 30 missions per campaign as with SC2? What do you suppose all that extra space would give exposition to?

Flashbacks and meanwhiles adapting Liberty's Crusade, Uprising, Speed of Darkness and Revelations would add to Rebel Yell perhaps. Maybe some explanation of the Confederacy's history.

The Fall would probably add flashbacks and adaptations of the materials that explain why the dark templar were exiled, what Tassadar was doing in previous episodes, etc.

I can't really think of what Overmind would add, except maybe give more personality to the otherwise bland and literally faceless Zerg characters. Maybe an army of psychic assimilated Terrans or something.

Turalyon

11-04-2017, 01:57 AM

Turry, I can tell from your informed use of terms like Doylist and Watsonian that you are a smart person. Your analyses have always been the sort of thing I'd cite during an argument. I really think you should write a blog analyzing the SC plot.

Thanks, but the purpose of my analyses is to hold a mirror up to one's views, to test them if you will, not to put forth my own singular point-of-view (as one would on a blog). I find that I'm best at "analysing" when I'm bouncing off ideas from others. The forum format works better for me that way.

I still think that trying to justify Metzen's writing, rather than shredding it, is a waste of your time. Would you have written the plot of SC1 the same way if you only had the manual to work from?

I'm not really the creative sort, so I would have no idea. Also, I'm most critical about my own work above all else, so I would probably say that even if I tried, I would probably compare it unfavorably to the original product anyway.

Something as simple as the psi-emitters and the Confederacy encountering Zerg in 2487 are examples of retcons that completely alter the course of events in the K-sec.

Only the latter counts as retcon though. Since there was never a precise timeline initially, its difficult to say how and when the Confeds encountered the Zerg. The Psi-emitter is just a plot development.

Nobody other than Metzen would have thought of including Kerry, Raynor and Duke in Episode 2. If they did, it would not be as cheap cameos with no payoff. The Dominion would be sending armies to deal with the Zerg, who would be trying to wipe out mankind rather than forget that plot thread like Metzen did. (The manual explicitly states the Zerg destroy the species in their path that lack value to them, like non-psychic humans.)

But the Dominion did send an army to deal with the Zerg. Mengsk sent Duke to Char in The New Dominion. Duke being a cameo and that we don't see the lead up of this is because the story is following the Zerg at that moment. It's not "cheap", it's to indicate that things still progress even though our POV is not on the Terrans anymore.

As to the Zerg POV, they're ultimate goal is to engage the Protoss, not the Terrans. They've already taken what they want from the Terrans, effectively neutered them (9 of 13 worlds apparently) as far as they're concerned and can finish them off later. The Protoss are the main concern for them now because they've now exposed themselves. Just because the Zerg didn't completely wipe out the Terrans then and there doesn't mean they weren't going to eventually. I mean, this sort of reasoning is used to justify the ludicrous and fallacious idea of how the Zerg can't infest/assimilate Protoss, which is now a concrete fact due to retcon, just because we never saw it happening.

Here's a thought experiment: what if SC1 was made today with 30 missions per campaign as with SC2? What do you suppose all that extra space would give exposition to?

I wouldn't even begin to fathom it really. Sc2's individual entries are already bloated and spend too much time on irrelevant side tracks already, though they actually got better from WoL, to HotS and then LotV. I think Blizz were right when they reduced the mission count for the later entries. Sure, I get the value and fun of having all this extra fluff to bury ones nose in, but it isn't all that really relevant nor does it help with pacing of the story which is what we're talking about here. Sc1 is able to maintain its tension and feel more eventful (the Overmind and The Stand campaigns are the only ones that narratively drag on a bit long) due to its relative brevity compared to Sc2.

Nissa

11-04-2017, 10:29 AM

Those are just ploys meant to throw you off course.

Unless this is all another ploy. :/

"Another" ploy?

Nah, I assure you I have not started another post under a different name. That, and I have long since grown tired of provoking Tura's wall-post replies. :D

School was a thing. It still is a thing, but with SC:R coming out, I wished to express/read opinions on the matter.

Turalyon

11-04-2017, 11:57 PM

That, and I have long since grown tired of provoking Tura's wall-post replies. :D

*Sniff* All I wanted was someone to play with :p

Mislagnissa

11-06-2017, 08:53 AM

As to the Zerg POV, they're ultimate goal is to engage the Protoss, not the Terrans. They've already taken what they want from the Terrans, effectively neutered them (9 of 13 worlds apparently) as far as they're concerned and can finish them off later. The Protoss are the main concern for them now because they've now exposed themselves. Just because the Zerg didn't completely wipe out the Terrans then and there doesn't mean they weren't going to eventually. I mean, this sort of reasoning is used to justify the ludicrous and fallacious idea of how the Zerg can't infest/assimilate Protoss, which is now a concrete fact due to retcon, just because we never saw it happening.There's enough material to write separate campaigns detailing the Zerg conflicts against the Terrans and Protoss, to do them justice rather than shoehorn a nonsensical Raynor/Tassadar alliance. Insurrection did a better job of setting up a rebel/templar alliance, because it spent the preceding missions developing an actual reason for them to team up rather than fiat.

I wouldn't even begin to fathom it really. Sc2's individual entries are already bloated and spend too much time on irrelevant side tracks already, though they actually got better from WoL, to HotS and then LotV. I think Blizz were right when they reduced the mission count for the later entries. Sure, I get the value and fun of having all this extra fluff to bury ones nose in, but it isn't all that really relevant nor does it help with pacing of the story which is what we're talking about here. Sc1 is able to maintain its tension and feel more eventful (the Overmind and The Stand campaigns are the only ones that narratively drag on a bit long) due to its relative brevity compared to Sc2.Those campaigns are not nearly as well-thought out as Rebel Yell. They meander and plod along rather than tell a cohesive story. The first five missions of Overmind, half the campaign, could be condensed into one or two missions or simply cut out entirely without losing anything of value. Again, Insurrection is better executed because every mission builds on those that came before rather than going off on tangents.

It's kind of embarrassing how Insurrection has superior writing despite a budget too small to afford play testing.

Turalyon

11-06-2017, 11:22 PM

There's enough material to write separate campaigns detailing the Zerg conflicts against the Terrans and Protoss, to do them justice rather than shoehorn a nonsensical Raynor/Tassadar alliance.

You're assuming they had the luxury to explain every little happenstance that occurs and that it's vitally important for them to do so at the time. The very nature of how the story is told, with it's focused perspective and progression of events in real-time from one campaign to the next, precludes the former from being feasible. As to the latter, it maybe somewhat arbitrary to include the Terrans to be sure, but I'd hesitate to call it shoe-horned in or nonsensical. One could easily look at the flipside and say its arbitrary and nonsensical for Tassadar to even still be alive, if not for the fact that he's the designated hero that must prevail in the end. Hell, I could easily generalise and devolve any position on anything ever to be ultimately arbitrary really - but then there's no point in doing that is there?

Both Tassadar and Raynor were drawn to Char because of Kerrigan so they were within close proximity. Both of their forces were crushed by Kerrigan and were looking for succor. Therefore, the possibility of them meeting up and aligning isn't that nonsensical. Then, later when the Protoss campaign has us go search for Tassadar, Raynor's presence there offers the suggestion they were both able to survive because they banded up together. Besides, it hardly feels forced because Raynor's presence in The Fall is perfunctory. If he's role and importance where hyper-inflated such that the plot turned out it wouldn't work without his involvement, then sure, his inclusion would indeed be considered forced. But it isn't, he's just there to ride out the storm and help where he can - a victim of circumstance. Sure, we could also do without him there, too, but it's more interesting with him in it and that he's a touchstone/convenient reminder of the Terran stakes in the conflict without having to forcibly rip the perspective wholesale away from the Protoss.

Those campaigns are not nearly as well-thought out as Rebel Yell. They meander and plod along rather than tell a cohesive story. The first five missions of Overmind, half the campaign, could be condensed into one or two missions or simply cut out entirely without losing anything of value.

I agree with both being plodding but that's largely because both of these stories revolve around a specific conceit: the Chrysalis/Kerrigan in the Overmind campaign and the Xel'Naga Temple/crystals in The Stand. The meandering is probably a by-product to help break up this pedestrian story-telling. The Stand is perhaps a more cohesive story than Overmind though because it has an appropriate setup that is followed through to the logical end of its story. Overmind is comparatively more frustrating on a structural level because it starts and focuses on this one thing and then ends on something completely different. It seemingly ignores and raises the question of what we went through earlier was even worthwhile. The only way I could fathom any cohesion and appreciate it was to consider the whole campaign from the perspective that it was supposed to always be about the Overmind, like its title suggests. The focus on the Chrysalis and Kerrigan was really just a testament to the tunnel vision and hubris of the Overmind.

Sc2 WoL in comparison encapsulates all the bad things in both Overmind and The Stand and turns them up. It's a pretty rote storyline at the end of the day but is excessively bloated and much longer than Overmind and The Stand together. The start of WoL is somewhat serviceable and set us off on a journey but the destination is unclear. By the time we leave Mar Sare, it seems to be about the search for some "artifacts" (a literal name-checked artifice, how ironic) to get enough money in order to fight Mengsk/Dominion. This is preceded by a plethora of non-important sidequests that have no impact on how the story turns out and then, the only vaguest goal that started the campaign in the first place (fighting Mengsk) gets relegated and invalidated as being a mere inconsequential sidequest. Just like Overmind, WoL's endgame focuses on something completely different and also thought to be improbable. WoL is worse than the Overmind in that the former's victory is actually total and complete, whilst the latter's an assumed total and complete victory by the main character. I tried to apply the reasoning for Overmind onto WoL to make some sense of it but because of the bloat and shopping list nature of the campaign, it was actually hard to figure out what unifying theme about Raynor it was going for beyond him just trying to do "good" things. Problem is, we already know that about him. We don't need a long-winded campaign just to confirm something we already know about him.

In his analysis FanaticTemplar surmised that WoL was about Raynor seeking redemption and getting it. Whilst that's the best interpretation that I would probably like to see WoL as, it's nowhere near concise or consistent throughout the game for me to categorically agree. Any redemption that is given to Raynor is something that is just handed to him in the form of Valerian and the artifact plot devices. He does nothing to earn them nor is he seemingly looking for it. There are times when he clearly isn't looking for redemption - he kills Protoss "fanatics" to steal artifacts to generate money for a misguided/personal revenge quest against Mengsk, knows that he is damned no matter what he does (A Better Tomorrow cinematic) and is seemingly suicidal (Heir Apparent cinematic). His exclamation in the Bar Fight cinematic about it his war not being about the Dominion shows how out of touch he is since the Dominion is the main bulwark against the Zerg for the Terran population at large yet he spent the majority most his time up to that point undermining them all under the excuse of it being about "saving lives" - whatever that supposedly means. His rhetoric in the Fire and Fury cinematic on the virtues of solidarity ends on a statement on there being things "worth fighting for" without stipulating what exactly he means. It's just all over the place.

Mislagnissa

11-07-2017, 02:50 PM

Trying to keep the Terrans, or more accurately Raynor in particular, relevant past Episode I was a bad decision. There was no compelling reason for him or anyone else to reappear, so Metzen made up some flimsy reasons to keep them despite cutting Tassadar's cameo from Episode I (which was instrumental to establishing his personality). Kerry's appearance single-handedly ruined the Zerg for every game to come.

If, instead of introducing Kerry as Zerg Jesus, Metzen had instead focused on developing the cerebrates with the same love and care he lavished on the Protoss, the Zerg might not have been shat on in every subsequent game. The Starcraft manual presented them as aliens genetically hardwired to conquer the universe. Starcraft presented them as boring faceless portraits who spoke like actors in a Shakespeare production. Brood War destroyed their hierarchy once and for all and made them Kerry's pets in her petty personal vendettas. Starcraft 2 retroactively destroyed their entire motivation for existing beyond soil-dwelling worms. That was the entirety of their culture. Without that, they are nothing. Their portrayal in Starcraft: Evolution was a joke.

Honestly, I would like for SC3 to be a reboot of SC1 that retells the story with a focus on the faction politics rather than a stupid romance. The story has nowhere else to go except retconning in yet another big bad evil guy because of the mandate that every installment involve the fate of the universe hanging in the balance.

Gradius

11-07-2017, 03:00 PM

Honestly, I would like for SC3 to be a reboot of SC1 that retells the story with a focus on the faction politics rather than a stupid romance. The story has nowhere else to go except retconning in yet another big bad evil guy because of the mandate that every installment involve the fate of the universe hanging in the balance.
I agree. SC1 wasn't perfect. Would be cool to see it redone in a modern way.

Nissa

11-07-2017, 03:19 PM

I agree. SC1 wasn't perfect. Would be cool to see it redone in a modern way.

It would be better if you said LESS modern way. Writing is running through a rough patch these days, as concerns California. These days of caring about visuals more than good writing, as well as the culturally insular way mainstream Cali is these days, what needs to happen is a complete refresher from such matters. That is, people not from California and/or understanding of outside cultures (thus better able to write rednecks/characters they disagree with).

Seriously, I'm on another forum for writers, and it's really a problem. The political correctness of assuming the slightest thing is sexist/racist, as well as the strange obsession with making a main character correct just because he's (or more often she) is the main character, is really denegrating the writing scene. For example, in a beta I read, the reader is supposed to sympathize with a judgemental girl (criticizes anyone for wearing expensive clothes), her autistic friend (insists the school cafeteria serve hot dogs on a specific day and throws a fit if they don't), and her other arrogant friend (disses a guy simply for asking her out politely -- "I'm just being honest!"). Then the main character criticizes the antagonist for being the product of rape. This is among other things I've read where girl characters diss guys just for being guys and accuse others of sexist motivations when said others haven't done anything. There was even a huge discussion over how "sexist" it is for a woman to be portrayed as inadvertently giving out important information when she's stressed out from work. I wasn't aware that guys never unintentionally say what they shouldn't, but apparently feminists think it's a female stereotype.

This relates to Starcraft in many ways. For one thing, Raynor is "always right" (it's not always a feminist issue) even when he kills Protoss for money or doesn't consider how rebellion in the middle of a Zerg attack might be stupid. Kerrigan is likewise "always right" for invading Korhal when she knows bigger things are at hand. Likewise, oversensitivity to any kind of ideological diversity (ie people believing things that don't line up with California thinking) means we can't have good factional issues, like Aldaris being intolerant or showing the bumps and setbacks in how the Protoss factions get along. Not to mention portraying the redneck/countryfolk of the human worlds correctly.

As far as graphics goes, we need more dramatic graphics. I was looking at the remastered portraits, and it occurs to me that many of them have gone from the obscured by smoke or darkness to bright and clearly defined. This is not dramatic, and it would be cool if Blizzard would think about this area more. However, having taking a graphic design course, I sympathize with the difficulty there. It is far easier, in 3D graphic design, to create clear, obvious shapes. Shrouding things in darkness would add a lot of work to make it look truly good.

Turalyon

11-08-2017, 03:57 AM

Trying to keep the Terrans, or more accurately Raynor in particular, relevant past Episode I was a bad decision.

But the Terrans/Raynor weren't relevant past Rebel Yell in terms of plot. Now, that maybe bad in its own isolated context but in terms of the story being about how these three races interact with each other, Raynor's inclusion/presence as the representative of the Terrans is necessary to carry that notion forward. Otherwise, what you have is disparate and disjointed campaigns that don't form a unified trilogy (*cough* like Sc2 *cough*).

There was no compelling reason for him or anyone else to reappear, so Metzen made up some flimsy reasons to keep them despite cutting Tassadar's cameo from Episode I (which was instrumental to establishing his personality).

Of course there was a compelling reason for Raynor to be there: he answered the psionic call that Kerrigan emitted... You know, the person that he feels guilt and has a connection too. Incidentally, it's also the same reason that Tassadar and Zeratul are on Char as well. If you want to call it contrivance then so be it (because it is) but don't couch it as an issue specifically and only pertaining to the forced inclusion of Terrans/Raynor because it forces the inclusion of Protoss/Tassadar in too. And that's even if we disregarded the fact that it was Kerrigan who was the source of that psionic call.

Really, it's just a coincidence that Raynor is there. Now, before you go flying off and say that that was a forced coincidence, you have to remind yourself that the entire story/fiction that is Starcraft is a "forced coincidence" to begin with. Just like what FanaticTemplar once told me (I'm paraphrasing here), there has to be some element of contrivance that one has to willingly suspend their disbelief at or otherwise, fiction would never be accepted in any of its forms. This is a minor issue relative to the bigger actual problems in the storytelling. Really, Raynor's inclusion in the later episodes, little and insignificant as they were, are hardly considered bad or wrong.

Kerry's appearance single-handedly ruined the Zerg for every game to come.

If, instead of introducing Kerry as Zerg Jesus, Metzen had instead focused on developing the cerebrates with the same love and care he lavished on the Protoss, the Zerg might not have been shat on in every subsequent game.

Your hyperbole is clearly showing your subjective negative bias against the character. Kerrigan only fulfills a saviour like role (which I assume you mean when you say "Jesus") in Sc2. In Sc1, she's just a unique individual in the Swarm that is fawned over and favoured by the Overmind. This favouritism may indeed stem from the writers in Doylist way but it's given a more than acceptable and justifiable Watsonian reason because she is the determinant that the Overmind had been apparently despairing over at potentially not finding and now it actually has what it always wanted.

The Starcraft manual presented them as aliens genetically hardwired to conquer the universe. Starcraft presented them as boring faceless portraits who spoke like actors in a Shakespeare production.

The last statement above is non-sequitur and irrelevant. Objectively speaking, the manual presents the Zerg as wanting to conquer the universe and Sc1 does go on to actually show that.

Brood War destroyed their hierarchy once and for all and made them Kerry's pets in her petty personal vendettas.

Of course Brood War would show the destruction of the previous hierarchy. The Overmind was the Zerg and they lost the Overmind! You have to expect some calamitous change from that. That the Zerg just rebound by growing another Overmind or worse, behave in a more deadly and effective manner than before when they did have the Overmind (see campaign The Stand) should be railed against more, objectively speaking. Kerrigan, being a free agent and a selfish, damaged human being (yes, I tend to think of Kerrigan in BW as totally being metaphysically free and making her own decisions) using them to her advantage now in BW is a brave, interesting and unexpected take on the plot objectively, even though it is subjectively dissatisfying on the level of the true Zerg fan (of which I am). Like it or not, it is a viable progression from what came before.

Starcraft 2 retroactively destroyed their entire motivation for existing beyond soil-dwelling worms. That was the entirety of their culture. Without that, they are nothing.

Now this I agree on. Additive retcons that actually confuse the matter of what was originally established is definitely bad. Not only does it make it difficult to reconcile, it generates more questions (good retcons should reduce the number of questions one needs to ask) and undermines what drew ones initial appeal for that race was. Currently, I'm not exactly sure who got it worse in terms of the retcons in their race histories: the Zerg or the Protoss. Part of the travesty of the Zerg retcon (the Overmind not really being the true Overmind/Zerg) introduced in WoL can be done away with due to the retcon in LotV about all the stuff in WoL about the Zerg being potentially some lie that Ouros concocted. It doesn't resolve the extra kick in the teeth the Zerg received in HotS however (the Hivemind Zerg being not really the "true" Zerg). The Protoss being the by-products of Amon right from the beginning as part of his plan is similarly just as insulting.

Honestly, I would like for SC3 to be a reboot of SC1 that retells the story with a focus on the faction politics rather than a stupid romance. The story has nowhere else to go except retconning in yet another big bad evil guy because of the mandate that every installment involve the fate of the universe hanging in the balance.

I think the "ship has sailed" as to whether Sc3 needs a good story for it to matter or continue. There's no salvaging of Starcrafts mainline story and I have no interest whatsoever in whatever direction it decides to go anymore because I know it'll be infected with undisguised sequelitis no matter what. If it's retconned, there's no point in investing in it because it's all temporary and changeable anyway (Sc2 has given us a bad precedent). If it's rebooted, it's in danger of just reiterating what came before to appeal to nostalgia or become something that's better off being a new IP anyway. If anything, I would actually prefer smaller, self-contained stories within the universe that don't have actual EPIC! world-shaking consequences.

Gradius

11-08-2017, 12:30 PM

It would be better if you said LESS modern way. Writing is running through a rough patch these days, as concerns California. These days of caring about visuals more than good writing, as well as the culturally insular way mainstream Cali is these days, what needs to happen is a complete refresher from such matters. That is, people not from California and/or understanding of outside cultures (thus better able to write rednecks/characters they disagree with).
I was talking more about the technical aspect. You're right that there's a disturbing PC trend going on lately, but there's still plenty of good shit nowadays. Witcher 3, Game of Thrones, House of Cards, Westworld, etc.

Mislagnissa

11-08-2017, 01:43 PM

Starcraft is fairly politically incorrect. The human protagonists are mostly white males.

The Zerg characters are usually exaggerated gender stereotypes. Almost all feminine Zerg are either passive (Izsha) or literally mothers (broodmoms, feminine primals). Kerry is obsessed entirely with her ex-boyfriends, and is psychotically insane.

EDIT: Ironically, the Zerg could be written as transgender with ease. Take the patriarchy from SC1 and offhandedly mention they lay eggs.

Abathur has a vagina mouth.

Gradius

11-08-2017, 02:04 PM

Mislagnissa

11-08-2017, 02:39 PM

I think the "ship has sailed" as to whether Sc3 needs a good story for it to matter or continue. There's no salvaging of Starcrafts mainline story and I have no interest whatsoever in whatever direction it decides to go anymore because I know it'll be infected with undisguised sequelitis no matter what. If it's retconned, there's no point in investing in it because it's all temporary and changeable anyway (Sc2 has given us a bad precedent). If it's rebooted, it's in danger of just reiterating what came before to appeal to nostalgia or become something that's better off being a new IP anyway. If anything, I would actually prefer smaller, self-contained stories within the universe that don't have actual EPIC! world-shaking consequences.You mean to say that the original premise of SC (space bugs want to conquer space elves but need humans to do it) is so utterly different from current canon that it would qualify as its own IP, despite having identical factions to Starcraft proper? You cannot spin that off into its own IP. It would obviously be a SC clone.

I am advocating reiterating what came before... without all the stupid. A reboot to basics is what the franchise needs rather than endless retcons and ad hoc villains.

Nissa

11-08-2017, 02:41 PM

I was talking more about the technical aspect. You're right that there's a disturbing PC trend going on lately, but there's still plenty of good shit nowadays. Witcher 3, Game of Thrones, House of Cards, Westworld, etc.

True, it's not all crap, but...Game of Thrones? Really? Meh. Although the problem with the insular writing culture in Cali is bigger than just political correctness. It's just that they don't understand that their perspective isn't the whole world. And that sex + violence doesn't automatically make for "edgy" or appealing.

Starcraft is fairly politically incorrect. The human protagonists are mostly white males.

That's my point. SC is supposed to be able to be politically incorrect, because you have realistic conflict and disagreements, as well as characters who aren't 100% perfect but are technically good guys, or at least not 100% evil. Actually, I'd support Duke for a not completely evil character. He's more like lawful neutral.

The Zerg characters are usually exaggerated gender stereotypes. Almost all feminine Zerg are either passive (Izsha) or literally mothers (broodmoms, feminine primals). Kerry is obsessed entirely with her ex-boyfriends, and is psychotically insane.

EDIT: Ironically, the Zerg could be written as transgender with ease. Take the patriarchy from SC1 and offhandedly mention they lay eggs.

Abathur has a vagina mouth.

What in the flying fudge are you even talking about? Nobody wants transgenders in Starcraft. SC is dark, gritty conflict, not the pushing of modern issues in a science fiction construct. That, and probably the Zerg don't have proper gender at all, given that they spawn rather than breed.

That, and it should be assumed that whenever I talk about SC, I'm not including SC2 unless I specifically mention it. SC2 is not real Starcraft, and does not count. If they wanted it to count, they should have given it the same feel as SC1.