How you suppose the breeds of the extended Zerg swarms are composed?

[Mislagnissa]

In SC1 we were told that the Zerg had assimilated countless species as they traveled the galaxy. Each cerebrate would develop a personality around their directive and alter the makeup of their brood to better follow that directive. In SC1 the only example we saw of this was that Tiamat breeds were stronger than typical (Jormungand?) breeds; in SC2 the Leviathan breeds specialize in aquatic warfare.

I think that all the breeds introduced throughout the series could serve a role in the extended swarm. Some of them are so similar that they would need some kind of tweaking to stand out. (A number of differences (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/6l7cbo/lore_tuesdays_5_what_happened_to_the_cut_brood/) in army compositions between SC1 and SC2 only make sense in terms of game mechanics rather than fluff.)

I do not see much difference between corruptors and devourers; funny enough the beta version of the corruptor had the ability to infest enemy air units and turn them into static turrets. Brood lords, at least in comparison to guardians, spawn broodlings.

The difference between creep colonies and the tumors and crawlers seems minimal, but of course in the SC2 beta the Zerg had a completely difference set of defenses. Neither seems clearly superior to the other due to mutual trade-offs: creep colonies spread creep and defend but cannot move, crawler defend or move but cannot spread creep or survive long outside creep, creep tumors spread creep but cannot move or defend.

The scourge nest in HotS displays a dramatic difference in the way a breed is spawned; funny enough, in the SC1 beta each Zerg structure produced its own larvae that would morph into the breed the structure was named for before later iterations centralized larvae production at the hatchery while leaving the names untouched (hence why the spawning pool does not spawn anything).

The queen underwent the most dramatic change between games, to the point where they share nothing but a name; the infestor bears the closest resemblance to the old queen. I suspect this is a casualty of the fluff conflicting the mechanics: in the SC1 game only overlords provide control and queens require a queen's nest to spawn, whereas in the fluff queens control laborers and overlords control warriors. Furthermore, the beta versions of both queens were dramatically different from their final versions (the SC1 beta queen has glaive wurm, dark swarm and plague; the SC2 beta queen built various base defenses).

In terms of breeds which you could expect to exist in the lore without appearing in the game armies, I can imagine quite a few things. For example, I can think of a few laborer strains beyond the generalist drones that specialize in specific tasks: breeds that dig nydus tunnels, breeds that farm creep (a la the SC2 beta queen), breeds that only harvest resources, and breeds that only plant structures, all managed by the telepathy of the queens.

I can think of a few different ways to mutate the creep colonies beyond stuff like crawlers. You could have colonies which replicate certain unit attacks like hydralisk spines, lurker spikes, spawn broodling, dark swarm, etc. You could have colonies which function as mini-hatcheries, producing larvae and/or accepting resources. Maybe, I don't know, some kind of bunker colony which can host multiple crawlers, or a expensive siege beast which attacks like a spine crawler without rooting and an impaler colony when rooted.

What do you think? Is the swarm really more expansive than the games would lead us to believe?

[Visions of Khas]

I forget the name of it, but there was a well-crafted single-player campaign that focused on the UED and what if they had successfully conquered the Koprulu sector. Each mission gave you a different set of upgrades, units and parameters, each particular to a different squadron such as the "UED Science Corps," "Atlas Wing," etc. It did a really good job at differentiating each squadron.

I would love to see a campaign that put as much emphasis on squadron/brood/tribal identity as that campaign; from Tiamet's quality-over-quanitity, to Balrog's psychological warfare.

Basically, I would love for the identity of each to be as distinct as the Imperium Chapters in WarHammer, but we know that'll never happen.

[ragnarok]

I forget the name of it, but there was a well-crafted single-player campaign that focused on the UED and what if they had successfully conquered the Koprulu sector. Each mission gave you a different set of upgrades, units and parameters, each particular to a different squadron such as the "UED Science Corps," "Atlas Wing," etc. It did a really good job at differentiating each squadron.

I would love to see a campaign that put as much emphasis on squadron/brood/tribal identity as that campaign; from Tiamet's quality-over-quanitity, to Balrog's psychological warfare.

Basically, I would love for the identity of each to be as distinct as the Imperium Chapters in WarHammer, but we know that'll never happen.

For tribal identity we'll probably need another brood entirely to determine the Surtur Brood's then, since that brood is so bloodthirsty the Overmind only calls it up during emergencies as it ends up killing allied zerg forces as well as the enemy.

[Turalyon]

Looks like you're asking for ideas about Cerebrate/brood based Co-op commanders.


Is the swarm really more expansive than the games would lead us to believe?

Nope. That it has made you think that the possibility of there being more than what is given means that it's done its job well in suspending your disbelief. ;)

[Mislagnissa]

Looks like you're asking for ideas about Cerebrate/brood based Co-op commanders.


Yeah, that's probably what I was thinking.

Araq/Jormungand is the standard multiplayer, a support force which relies on swarming tactics and occasional special abilities. Any co-op commanders or mods (kerry, zaggy, abby, mass recall, heptacraft swarm, etc) which are largely similar would quality as variants of this.

Daggoth/Tiamat, as said before, would value quality over quantity and probably favor aerial and space combat.

Leviathan focuses on naval and submarine warfare, which would need special maps to be represented properly a la WarCraft 2.

Gorn/Baelrog would have various debuffs to represent psychological warfare. This is not something which to my knowledge has been explored in the games.

Kagg/Surtur Zerg would have boss battle-like area attacks, charges, artillery, etc to represent being heavy support with little control.

Zasz/Garm would have fast moving, heaving hitting units with minimal armor to represent being the Zerg equivalent of special forces.

Nargil/Fenris would probably have lots of mobile structures like crawlers and primal hives to represent being fast nomadic bounty hunters, maybe like Dehaka.

Kaloth's New Swarm would probably the same as Stukov's co-op army, or incorporate more traditional Zerg.

Auza/Incubus specializes in subversion, favors defilers and queens and infested terrans (probably similar to infested from Heptacraft mod). Carpenter/Bahamut would probably be a variant of this or Kaloth's New Swarm.

Zargil/Sennith... honestly he was never more than a melodramatic talking head who told the player what to do. I got nothing.

Grendel was nothing but a name, so I got nothing there either. The Czech starcraft encyclopedia fansite made up something about it being an incubator swarm which produces troops to be adopted by other broods, so maybe it could produce large amounts of units that could be given to co-op Zerg or something.

[Visions of Khas]

Kagg/Surtur Zerg would have boss battle-like area attacks, charges, artillery, etc to represent being heavy support with little control.

Before the advent of ravagers, I wonder what the zerg had that was analogous to artillery. Did they have something like plasma bugs?

[Turalyon]

Before the advent of ravagers, I wonder what the zerg had that was analogous to artillery. Did they have something like plasma bugs?

From a "non-game" perspective, I wouldn't think that Zerg would need nor have artillery like a conventional army (which is based on ranged warfare nonetheless) since it's not as if they'd be concerned about minimising losses. If they had to siege a heavily fortified position they'd probably use "sapper" like units that utilise burrowing tactics to undermine foundations and such. They could also just get a Nydus worm into the heart of whatever base they wanted to assault.

If they needed something for the role of suppression and non-specific carnage over a wide area, Defilers could've easily done that with their plagues. Also, they have access to powerful and cheap suicidal units like Infested Terrans and Scourge that can easily be used for a similar role as artillery.

[Gradius]

Guardians were pretty much flying siege tanks.

[Nolanstar]

In regards to the colonies vs crawlers. Colonies seem to be much larger then their contemporary crawlers, so serve as more of a large fortification, wheras a crawler is a mobile security unit.

Sieging a fortified position can be done with guardians in sc1 era (field guide mentions a really extreme splash radius for their attacks, 100 yards I think?), or a combination of brood lords and guardians later. Swarm Guardians (hey, my point on cannon is if it was cancelled, it was prototype or just not used much, hence the grizzly, etc) were described as being almost the size of a battlecruiser, and considering their nature could be an orbital bombardment unit...

Bile-launchers also serve as a heavy artillery station, but that's post-hots, spore cannons probably also serve a similar purpose, but they are listed as everything from message-launchers to anti-orbital batteries to artillery.


Anyone think the broods in sc1-era actually had shell colours close to their ingame colour?

[ragnarok]

Guardians were pretty much flying siege tanks.

And then the charon booster upgrade made them less effective on the battlefield, it was a shame....

[drakolobo]

Bile-launchers also serve as a heavy artillery station, but that's post-hots, spore cannons probably also serve a similar purpose, but they are listed as everything from message-launchers to anti-orbital batteries to artillery.

it is post broodwar no post hots
bile launcher and scourge launcher, was in the invasion of char in WoL

[Mislagnissa]

Before the advent of ravagers, I wonder what the zerg had that was analogous to artillery. Did they have something like plasma bugs?


From a "non-game" perspective, I wouldn't think that Zerg would need nor have artillery like a conventional army (which is based on ranged warfare nonetheless) since it's not as if they'd be concerned about minimising losses. If they had to siege a heavily fortified position they'd probably use "sapper" like units that utilise burrowing tactics to undermine foundations and such. They could also just get a Nydus worm into the heart of whatever base they wanted to assault.

If they needed something for the role of suppression and non-specific carnage over a wide area, Defilers could've easily done that with their plagues. Also, they have access to powerful and cheap suicidal units like Infested Terrans and Scourge that can easily be used for a similar role as artillery.


In regards to the colonies vs crawlers. Colonies seem to be much larger then their contemporary crawlers, so serve as more of a large fortification, wheras a crawler is a mobile security unit.

Sieging a fortified position can be done with guardians in sc1 era (field guide mentions a really extreme splash radius for their attacks, 100 yards I think?), or a combination of brood lords and guardians later. Swarm Guardians (hey, my point on cannon is if it was cancelled, it was prototype or just not used much, hence the grizzly, etc) were described as being almost the size of a battlecruiser, and considering their nature could be an orbital bombardment unit...

Bile-launchers also serve as a heavy artillery station, but that's post-hots, spore cannons probably also serve a similar purpose, but they are listed as everything from message-launchers to anti-orbital batteries to artillery.


Anyone think the broods in sc1-era actually had shell colours close to their ingame colour?
One of the unused unit concepts in HotS was a "spore beast" resembling a cross between a guardian and a devourer.

The Zerg canonically consumed countless species over countless millennia. Most likely the dozen or so breeds seen in the game represented a small fraction of the breeds available. We actually don't know how much of the Swarms throughout the galaxy converged on the Koprulu sector. It's entirely possible that there are many, many more Zerg elsewhere in the galaxy.

Judging by the fact that it took 60 years (Earth years?) to reach the Koprulu sector within the frontier border of the Protoss Empire (which spans from a couple hundred to a thousand worlds), but much shorter to reach Aiur from there (depending on how long you thought the campaign took, anywhere from weeks to years), I suspect that Zerg FTL speed is proportional to the amount of Zerg near the wormhole.

BW threw the cerebrates away, but I always felt that they had a reason to be giant psychic brains. Their brain mass allows them to coordinate the thousands to millions of Zerg that comprise a brood, while their link to all those Zerg provides the wireless power for their psychic abilities like creating super-ultralisks or invulnerable creep colonies.

But I digress. You could justify pretty much any concept besides combat optimized psychic powers as existing in the swarms for centuries. We don't see these in the game because of game balance and limited resources. StarCraft is not Impossible Creatures.

[Nolanstar]

I do know the unused zerg units given my modding, I still question the tentaclemonster, but hey, variety. We also have like 12 named zergling strains.

[ragnarok]

Before the advent of ravagers, I wonder what the zerg had that was analogous to artillery. Did they have something like plasma bugs?

Was that something in the original SC1 development? I don't recall that....

[Nolanstar]

Was that something in the original SC1 development? I don't recall that....

He means plasma bugs a la starship troopers bugs. Some sort of dedicated artillery unit.
Guardians seemed to serve that purpose, and defilers are able to also do an odd if decent siege job.

[Visions of Khas]

Pfft. Which makes me wonder why they eliminated the Defiler, seeing as how useful that breed was.

[Nolanstar]

Possible outsurpassed by the more sapper-esque aspects of infestors and fatty's/early infestor/blightbringer "prototypes" (Early design for it, hence why it probably was in its early stage an alternate to the borboru matriarch based infestor, but the infestor seemed more useful and I got shafted until later use with modifications. It had the ability to frenzy to buff allies, which is more situational then dark swarm, and it also had a disease ability in-between plague and fungal growth, plus other stuff.)

Dark swar seems more useful against lesser species and primitive civilizaions, not siege tank lines or reaver companies. AOE artillery man.

[ragnarok]

Pfft. Which makes me wonder why they eliminated the Defiler, seeing as how useful that breed was.

They wanted something better, except Blizzard didn't know the Infestor couldn't really replace the Defiler. They should have just kept both or something

[Zoar]

gotta love that the viper in lore is an evolved form of the defiler

[ragnarok]

gotta love that the viper in lore is an evolved form of the defiler

I suspect maybe in the Leviathan brood they tried to mix viper and defiler DNA together, though the skins only said the vipers exhibit more defiler traits than the other broods, despite the fact that the viper was one of the original zerg strains and the defiler wasn't.

[Zoar]

if i remember correctly that bit of info is from the Field Manual

[Zoar]

correction, its not in the field manual its on the official Starcraft 2 site in the game guide under the specimen analysis section

[Nolanstar]

I suspect maybe in the Leviathan brood they tried to mix viper and defiler DNA together, though the skins only said the vipers exhibit more defiler traits than the other broods, despite the fact that the viper was one of the original zerg strains and the defiler wasn't.

Vipers were not an original zerg strain. They fall into the same category as Swarm Hosts given that the swarm cobbled them from similar primals. Defilers might be "original" in the sense of being a designed organism, rather then assimilated (core genus unknown)

[Mislagnissa]

Some of the SC2 breeds have no core genus listed or have no date given for their assimilation. For example, the brood lord and corruptor have no core genus listed and may be a result of splicing existing genomes like the queen and mutalisk. The lurker, devourer and infestor could have been in the swarm since before the Great War.

There's no reason the broodmothers could not have been present before the Great War. According to SC1 manual (before the SC2 retcons) the xel'naga kept detailed genetic histories of the species they manipulated. Perhaps the Overmind tried to clone Protoss and, while the attempt was a failure, it led to the creation of the broodmothers (who are mouthless and have dreadlocks like Protoss).

[ragnarok]

Some of the SC2 breeds have no core genus listed or have no date given for their assimilation. For example, the brood lord and corruptor have no core genus listed and may be a result of splicing existing genomes like the queen and mutalisk. The lurker, devourer and infestor could have been in the swarm since before the Great War.

There's no reason the broodmothers could not have been present before the Great War. According to SC1 manual (before the SC2 retcons) the xel'naga kept detailed genetic histories of the species they manipulated. Perhaps the Overmind tried to clone Protoss and, while the attempt was a failure, it led to the creation of the broodmothers (who are mouthless and have dreadlocks like Protoss).

That's kind of how I originally saw the Viper and Swarm host, (prior to Blizzard giving us info for HotS), that they were created merely via DNA recombination experiments or something

[Nolanstar]

My point being is specifically the defiler in the SC1 manual has a core genus unknown, and is the only unit to do so, wheras most sc2 stuff they didn't even bother doing this with. Its possible some stuff is dna recombination, but there could easily be a core for something like a corruptor, even if its literally a squid with gravitic-modifying properties from some planet.

[Zoar]

the Scourge also has unknown core genus in the original manual as well

[Mislagnissa]

the Scourge also has unknown core genus in the original manual as well
Maybe it was subject to enough genetic alteration that the designation no longer applies, much as the original SC2 website said the broodmothers/new queens had an unknown core genus due to the inclusion of Terran and/or Protoss DNA. Gradius' Origins campaign has them being derived from what are either larval behemoths or some kind of parasite that lived on behemoths (I cannot tell since the map gives no details on them) and supposes that locusts share the same origin. We don't know the point at which a Zerg breed can be said to no longer have a core genus, since all Zerg have genes from several different species which gives their characteristic shared appearance and capabilities.

That raises the question of who is writing the manual, since the text is consistent with being written by a handful of authors at most (and contains minor contradictions, probably due to multiple drafts and lack of proofreading). Is it written in-character, out-of-character or omniscient narrator? By Terrans, Zerg or Protoss? How did they learn all they wrote?

[ragnarok]

My point being is specifically the defiler in the SC1 manual has a core genus unknown, and is the only unit to do so, wheras most sc2 stuff they didn't even bother doing this with. Its possible some stuff is dna recombination, but there could easily be a core for something like a corruptor, even if its literally a squid with gravitic-modifying properties from some planet.

Maybe back then they wanted to do that to keep things mysterious and everything, which would be a neat point for an alien race because you don't know just what planets the Overmind visited, what exact species it took into the swarm, and so on. It only proved Kerrigan was much less creative for such things for her efforts in trying to evolve the swarm

[drakolobo]

its core can be adn viral

[Visions of Khas]

its core can be adn viral


Did you mean "DNA"?

All known life (obligatory (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peptide_nucleic_acid)exceptions links (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RNA_world)) is DNA based. The "Core genus" refers to the animal/s that have been captured or assimilated, and are used as a platform to contain many other modifications, making all zerg chimeras. There's some debate as to whether viruses are "alive" or not, of course. But considering that the zerg operate by means of horizontal gene transfer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horizontal_gene_transfer) and genetic recombination, similarly to some viruses (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endogenous_retrovirus), an argument can be made the the zerg ARE viral in nature.

Back in the days before SCII, it was my headcanon that Defilers were derived from the Xel'Naga. It doesn't help now that the defiler body bears a vague resemblance to Xel'Naga, too; but I think it's canon that Defilers were cobbled together from scratch.

[Mislagnissa]

Back in the days before SCII, it was my headcanon that Defilers were derived from the Xel'Naga. It doesn't help now that the defiler body bears a vague resemblance to Xel'Naga, too; but I think it's canon that Defilers were cobbled together from scratch.

I thought the original description of the defiler said it contained the genomes of all breeds/strains, which it used to produce biological warfare agents like pathogens and vermin swarms.

EDIT: I never gave it much thought until recently, but I figure that the xel'naga could have been robots or something similarly strange.

[Nolanstar]

I thought the original description of the defiler said it contained the genomes of all breeds/strains, which it used to produce biological warfare agents like pathogens and vermin swarms.

EDIT: I never gave it much thought until recently, but I figure that the xel'naga could have been robots or something similarly strange.

Looking back and yeah, it has parts of the common strains in it in some form. An example of the zerg "cobbling" together something useful and original. Probably how leviathans were created also.

[Visions of Khas]

Probably how leviathans were created also.

Well, StarCraft: Evolution states the Leviathans were assimilated from a space-faring species, though whether Timothy Zahn was confusing Leviathans with Overlords and Behemoths is anybody's guess. However, the lore on Behemoths and Overlods conflicts; Shadow of the Xel'Naga states that it was the Behemoths that the Overmind assimilated on Zerus, allowing the Swarm to leave. However, Just an Overlord states -- and the manual itself suggests -- that it was the Gargantis Proximae instead that granted the Swarm off-world travel, later becoming Overlords.

[Nolanstar]

Could also be that Gargantis allowed the zerg to get into the orbit and gave them the range to assimilate behemoths.

[drakolobo]

for me levianthan only are heavy version of behemoth

[Turalyon]

Well, StarCraft: Evolution states the Leviathans were assimilated from a space-faring species, though whether Timothy Zahn was confusing Leviathans with Overlords and Behemoths is anybody's guess. However, the lore on Behemoths and Overlods conflicts; Shadow of the Xel'Naga states that it was the Behemoths that the Overmind assimilated on Zerus, allowing the Swarm to leave. However, Just an Overlord states -- and the manual itself suggests -- that it was the Gargantis Proximae instead that granted the Swarm off-world travel, later becoming Overlords.

I'm thinking it was originally all the same thing. The description of the Overlord in the manual says they're "space-faring behemoths". Are they the same or is it just coincidence? It's kinda fuzzy because although the Gargantis Proximae were space-faring and "behemoth", they were assimilated for their heightened senses, not their ability to survive and/or to enter space. Then again, the Zerg history mentions "a race of gargantuan space-faring life forms" from which they obtained the ability to survive space but doesn't mention that they were assimilated specifically for this trait. Also, note that the description of them being "gargantuan" and their core genus of Overlords being called "Gargantis Proximae". Has to be related, right?

[Mislagnissa]

I'm thinking it was originally all the same thing. The description of the Overlord in the manual says they're "space-faring behemoths". Are they the same or is it just coincidence? It's kinda fuzzy because although the Gargantis Proximae were space-faring and "behemoth", they were assimilated for their heightened senses, not their ability to survive and/or to enter space. Then again, the Zerg history mentions "a race of gargantuan space-faring life forms" from which they obtained the ability to survive space but doesn't mention that they were assimilated specifically for this trait. Also, note that the description of them being "gargantuan" and their core genus of Overlords being called "Gargantis Proximae". Has to be related, right?This has been a point of contention since the original manual. I don’t know whether it was due to later rewrites and poor proofreading or what.

Overlords were first mentioned in the Zerg backstory. They were assimilated on Zerus, before the Zerg had space flight, to act as agents for the cerebrates. Later, the Zerg lure behemoths and assimilate them to get functional space travel and space survivability. In the Overlord’s unit description, however, the gargantis proximae were mentioned to be space faring. In one of the cinematics, we see overlords flying past some kind of giant space whale creature too big to fit in the frame. They clearly aren’t the same species, but why didn’t the Zerg get space flight from gargantis proximae long before assimilating the behemoths? This is a plot hole. (Leviathans are clearly a third space faring species. Judging by the concept art, there are various space whale creatures resembling giant ticks and literal whales.)

The two problems facing a potential space faring organism are food and propulsion. They need food to power their propulsion, and they need really good propulsion to get their food since space is really big and empty. Traveling any significant distance is impossible without air/food storage and suspended animation, or superluminal travel. Furthermore, leaving and landing on a planet has a host of problems like escape velocity and friction on reentry. We saw the Zerg use their psychic powers to open wormholes, but we don’t know whether this relied on their khaydarin crystal cache or could evolve in other species.

“Just an Overlord” gave more backstory the gargantis proximae, explaining that they came to Zerus to be infested and avoid extinction. This still doesn’t resolve the plot hole. The gargantis proximae were said to have multiple homeworlds, probably feeding grounds since they were herbivorous, suggesting that they were capable of interstellar travel and deal with the difficulties of escape velocity and reentry. They used telekinesis and/or gas for propulsion, IIRC.

The only explanation I can think of is that the gargantis proximae’s method of space travel was not practical to get the Zerg off-world, and the Zerg were not able to improve upon it. Maybe they were too slow and spent their time in suspended animation, or were limited to the nebula surrounding Zerus (it was located in the galactic core, where stars were densely clustered). The gargantis proximae were, after all, on the verge of extinction when they were assimilated. Perhaps the gargantis proximae were native to a series of forest moons within a reasonable traveling distance of Zerus, explaining their inferior space travel.

The mantis screamers were believed capable of interstellar travel, possibly in a larval form (with suspended animation?). They could fly in space by flapping their wings (or maybe riding solar wind?), though the mechanics of this were not understood by contemporary science (according to the b.net pages, but it was later retconned to gas propulsion).

[ragnarok]

I thought the original description of the defiler said it contained the genomes of all breeds/strains, which it used to produce biological warfare agents like pathogens and vermin swarms.

EDIT: I never gave it much thought until recently, but I figure that the xel'naga could have been robots or something similarly strange.

Why robots? We were never shown what they looked like back in SC1 and BW. Of course for the defiler to be derived from the Xel'Naga, I'm a bit unsure on that. Via SC1's lore I got the impression the Overmind wanted all the power of the Xel'Naga for himself, and wasn't willing to give it to the zerg breeds, in the event they're killed off by someone else, who then might try to siphon the Xel'Naga power out of them (had the Overmind given it to them)

[Mislagnissa]

Why robots? We were never shown what they looked like back in SC1 and BW. Of course for the defiler to be derived from the Xel'Naga, I'm a bit unsure on that. Via SC1's lore I got the impression the Overmind wanted all the power of the Xel'Naga for himself, and wasn't willing to give it to the zerg breeds, in the event they're killed off by someone else, who then might try to siphon the Xel'Naga power out of them (had the Overmind given it to them)

What? That makes no sense. Besides their science, the xel'naga had no "powers." The Overmind is a function of the Swarm, not a separate entity capable of deception. Even its so-called physical form is a proxy that was probably created specifically to assault the psi matrix. The xel'naga knowledge was disseminated among the Swarm. The Zerg literally consumed the xel'naga and constitute their direct descendants.

Gradius' Origins custom campaign rationalized this as xel'naga having "purity of form" which made them uninfestable (this is obviously a completely different meaning from the Protoss' sullied purity). I think that in a human perspective that might translate as "robotic", which the Zerg would have no context for. Insert crazy theories about the xel'naga creating the protoss/zerg as host bodies, then getting their souls eaten by the Zerg and ironically accomplishing said goal.

I doubt that Zerg and Protoss literally use DNA are their genetic molecule, being aliens and all. That's just Blizzard's typical scientific illiteracy again.

Speaking of which, the fluff says that the larvae have the genomes of all breeds. Yet the buildings are stated to have the genes of their associated breed and allow larvae to use it. This is a relic of the SC beta when the buildings individually produced larvae that molted into the associated breed, then changed to centralization at the hatchery w/o updating the manual completely. How would that make sense? Is the genome compressed and encrypted within larvae, then decrypted and decompressed by the associated building?

[ragnarok]

What? That makes no sense. Besides their science, the xel'naga had no "powers." The Overmind is a function of the Swarm, not a separate entity capable of deception. Even its so-called physical form is a proxy that was probably created specifically to assault the psi matrix. The xel'naga knowledge was disseminated among the Swarm. The Zerg literally consumed the xel'naga and constitute their direct descendants.


No powers that we know of. You're acting like the Xel'Naga had been powerless the whole time, which was never the case even via the SC1 lore. They merely underestimated the Overmind.

I never looked at the Origins custom campaign, but I never felt they were immune to infestation. If the zerg assimilated the Xel'Naga, you'd think they'd find a way to infest EVERY possible living organism. Maybe the Overmind just needed a lot of time to sift through the Xel'Naga knowledge and everything.

As for creating the zerg/protoss as host bodies, that was only what Zamara was telling Zeratul in the DT Saga Twilight, which was merely her theory.

[Turalyon]

Overlords were first mentioned in the Zerg backstory. They were assimilated on Zerus, before the Zerg had space flight, to act as agents for the cerebrates. Later, the Zerg lure behemoths and assimilate them to get functional space travel and space survivability.

That's quite interesting actually. Maybe the Overlords we see now didn't originally look like the very first Overlords. Maybe the assimilation of the Gargantis Proximae, for their heightened senses, is what led to the Overlords eventually becoming what they look like now.


In the Overlord’s unit description, however, the gargantis proximae were mentioned to be space faring. In one of the cinematics, we see overlords flying past some kind of giant space whale creature too big to fit in the frame.

Keep in mind that there's a lot of time in between the origin of the Overlords and that cinematic we see in Sc1. It could've been they found another even larger space-faring creature to assimilate in their travels to Protoss space.

[Visions of Khas]

Project Blackstone states that Overlords were assimilated for their psychic sensitivity, and that the Overmind refused to heavily alter them for fear of losing those genetic components that make them so valuable. So its possible that, though capable of space travel, the Overlord's abilities couldn't be passed on to the remainder of the Swarm, necessitating assimilation of the Behemoths.

It's interesting that a species that willingly gave themselves to the Swarm wound up being preserved almost 100%.

[Nolanstar]

It makes sense to a degree, they did retain an aspect of individuality as command creatures, somewhat represented in "Just an overlord". They also still got the usual zerg treatment of regenerative properties, carapace, and the numerous other advantages.

[ragnarok]

Project Blackstone states that Overlords were assimilated for their psychic sensitivity, and that the Overmind refused to heavily alter them for fear of losing those genetic components that make them so valuable. So its possible that, though capable of space travel, the Overlord's abilities couldn't be passed on to the remainder of the Swarm, necessitating assimilation of the Behemoths.

It's interesting that a species that willingly gave themselves to the Swarm wound up being preserved almost 100%.

Interesting. I'm willing to bet at the beginning, the Overmind did try to modify a few of them and then stopped the process altogether when it realized the vital genetics were being lost. Though I'm curious why the Overmind didn't just create much greater numbers of Overlords so that certain numbers of them could be considered more "expendable," despite their ability to command lower zerg strains. That way, the "expendable" ones could pass their abilities to the rest of the swarm

[Visions of Khas]

It makes me wonder when Abathur was conceived; at what point did the Overmind abandon trial and error for direct genetic manipulation? The original manual suggested that assimilation was an onerous, time- consuming process that required possibly generations.

[Mislagnissa]

No powers that we know of. You're acting like the Xel'Naga had been powerless the whole time, which was never the case even via the SC1 lore. They merely underestimated the Overmind.They had advanced tech and lived for millions of years, but both the Protoss Empire at its height before the Aeon of Strife and the primordial Zerg Swarm constituted extinction-level threats to them. They clearly were not adept at warfare.

In fact, I would think their psychic link was supposed to work like Amon's directive retconned in SC2. In both instances, the Overmind was trivially able to break this control and kill them all. They were really bad at warfare.


That's quite interesting actually. Maybe the Overlords we see now didn't originally look like the very first Overlords. Maybe the assimilation of the Gargantis Proximae, for their heightened senses, is what led to the Overlords eventually becoming what they look like now.



Keep in mind that there's a lot of time in between the origin of the Overlords and that cinematic we see in Sc1. It could've been they found another even larger space-faring creature to assimilate in their travels to Protoss space.I just said that the overlords and space creatures used to escape Zerus were already shown to be two different species in the original manual.

The fact that the overlords were among the earliest species consumed, and that they shared psychic sensitivity in common with the original Zerg, suggests to me that they may have shared origin and lived in close range. Thus, the overlords may not have been particularly good at space travel.


Project Blackstone states that Overlords were assimilated for their psychic sensitivity, and that the Overmind refused to heavily alter them for fear of losing those genetic components that make them so valuable. So its possible that, though capable of space travel, the Overlord's abilities couldn't be passed on to the remainder of the Swarm, necessitating assimilation of the Behemoths.

It's interesting that a species that willingly gave themselves to the Swarm wound up being preserved almost 100%.I always thought that was just another in the long list of SC2 retcons intended to completely rewrite the backstory and tone into garbage, like first age Protoss being retconned into cavemen and Kerry being literally a demigoddess and xel'naga being literal space squid gods.


It makes me wonder when Abathur was conceived; at what point did the Overmind abandon trial and error for direct genetic manipulation? The original manual suggested that assimilation was an onerous, time- consuming process that required possibly generations. I assumed this remained the case and that the Zerg needed to tailor infestation for every unfamiliar biochemistry. They apparently needed a decade to make themselves compatible with humans. (Ignoring later retcons about the magic evolution virus and humans being magically incompatible.)

[Nolanstar]

Funny thing is that humans weren't magically incompatable, Abberations from larva show that the zerg did assimilate humans, and based what amounts to a cavalry unit off them. While it was initially an infested experiment it would work its way to a actual combat strain.

[drakolobo]

Funny thing is that humans weren't magically incompatable, Abberations from larva show that the zerg did assimilate humans, and based what amounts to a cavalry unit off them. While it was initially an infested experiment it would work its way to a actual combat strain.

zerg asimilate humans, have hard time in manipulate psionic organs, burn their mind and got only any like zerling.

[Turalyon]

It makes me wonder when Abathur was conceived; at what point did the Overmind abandon trial and error for direct genetic manipulation? The original manual suggested that assimilation was an onerous, time- consuming process that required possibly generations.

I like to think that Abathur was a creation of the Overmind after it had taken over and consumed the Xel'Naga's knowledge of proto-genetics.


They clearly were not adept at warfare.

Not to mention they were just scientists originally.


I just said that the overlords and space creatures used to escape Zerus were already shown to be two different species in the original manual.

The fact that the overlords were among the earliest species consumed, and that they shared psychic sensitivity in common with the original Zerg, suggests to me that they may have shared origin and lived in close range. Thus, the overlords may not have been particularly good at space travel.

Thing is, the manual actually confuses the matter due to the plothole you mentioned. If the Gargantis Proximae were already assimilated before the (other?) "race of gargantuan space-faring life forms passed through the Zerus system" but that the original Gargantis Proximae were originally space-faring (as described in the Overlord entry), were known to transport Zerg units into battle from the get-go and assimilated largely unchanged from their core genus, why would it even specify "the Overmind was looking for something - anything - which would transport them from this world (Zerus)" when it already has this "something - anything"? Surely, the Gargantis Proximae would've had the "super-dense hides and ability to exist in a vacuum" (the requirement to be considered a space-faring organism and apparently the thing they were missing in order to get off the planet) the Overmind was looking for from the start, right? Surely, there would've been an explanation given for why the Gargantis Proximae did not provide this ability when they were first assimilated in the near beginnings of the Swarm, right? One has to then consider that either the Overmind was just dumb not to assimilate the space-faring ability of the Gargantis Proximae (which is later revealed in the short story that it was due the Overmind wanting to preserve them as much as they could and therefore didn't disseminate their traits to the rest of the Zerg), or that the Overlords first mentioned in the backstory manual may not have actually originated from Gargantis Proximae, or that their description of "space-faring" doesn't also mean being able to get off a planet, or..... I think my brain just dribbled out my nose.

[Visions of Khas]

Or, we could completely ignore the Behemoths lore in Shadow of the Xel'Naga entirely because, y'know, it's from Shadows of the Xel'Naga.

[Turalyon]

Heh heh. I'm not ignoring intentionally. I know that the Gargantis and Behemoths are two separate things, just highlighting how potentially mixed up you can be/how confusing the manual makes it out to be when its your only source.

[Visions of Khas]

I'm partly serious, though. I truly wonder if Leviathens are supposed to be the "spiritual successors" to the Behemoths, which in turn were meant to describe those big-ass spiked creatures in "The Warp" zerg cinematic. Have Behemoths been mentioned anywhere outside SotXN?

[Mislagnissa]

Funny thing is that humans weren't magically incompatable, Abberations from larva show that the zerg did assimilate humans, and based what amounts to a cavalry unit off them. While it was initially an infested experiment it would work its way to a actual combat strain.This is a retcon. Before Episode II retconned the plot into incoherence, the Zerg were only interested in humans for their combat psychic powers and considered them physically inferior. The aberration is the result of random mutation on infested colonies, which are completely redundant to the literal legions of other warrior beasts within the swarm.


zerg asimilate humans, have hard time in manipulate psionic organs, burn their mind and got only any like zerling.This is a retcon, brought about to justify Kerry being a special snowflake. As you see in Insurrection, written pre-retcon, human psychics are fully compatible.


I like to think that Abathur was a creation of the Overmind after it had taken over and consumed the Xel'Naga's knowledge of proto-genetics.You aren't alone. Gradius' Origins campaign presumes Abathur was created to apply that knowledge. His response to Nargil is really funny.



Thing is, the manual actually confuses the matter due to the plothole you mentioned. If the Gargantis Proximae were already assimilated before the (other?) "race of gargantuan space-faring life forms passed through the Zerus system" but that the original Gargantis Proximae were originally space-faring (as described in the Overlord entry), were known to transport Zerg units into battle from the get-go and assimilated largely unchanged from their core genus, why would it even specify "the Overmind was looking for something - anything - which would transport them from this world (Zerus)" when it already has this "something - anything"? Surely, the Gargantis Proximae would've had the "super-dense hides and ability to exist in a vacuum" (the requirement to be considered a space-faring organism and apparently the thing they were missing in order to get off the planet) the Overmind was looking for from the start, right? Surely, there would've been an explanation given for why the Gargantis Proximae did not provide this ability when they were first assimilated in the near beginnings of the Swarm, right? One has to then consider that either the Overmind was just dumb not to assimilate the space-faring ability of the Gargantis Proximae (which is later revealed in the short story that it was due the Overmind wanting to preserve them as much as they could and therefore didn't disseminate their traits to the rest of the Zerg), or that the Overlords first mentioned in the backstory manual may not have actually originated from Gargantis Proximae, or that their description of "space-faring" doesn't also mean being able to get off a planet, or..... I think my brain just dribbled out my nose.Yes. I'm guessing the Overlords simply were no good at practical space travel and were probably native to the Zerus system, rather than some silly retcon that doesn't understand how genes work. Xel'naga might have helped them or something.


I'm partly serious, though. I truly wonder if Leviathens are supposed to be the "spiritual successors" to the Behemoths, which in turn were meant to describe those big-ass spiked creatures in "The Warp" zerg cinematic. Have Behemoths been mentioned anywhere outside SotXN?

Both exist as of SC2. They have separate models. Behemoths look like manta rays.

[ragnarok]

Or, we could completely ignore the Behemoths lore in Shadow of the Xel'Naga entirely because, y'know, it's from Shadows of the Xel'Naga.

Why'd you hate the lore in that book?

[Visions of Khas]

Wait, Behemoths are in the game?

[Turalyon]

You aren't alone. Gradius' Origins campaign presumes Abathur was created to apply that knowledge. His response to Nargil is really funny.

The irony of this is that I, along with some others (like VoK and FanaticTemplar), helped Grad gel some of Origins story together. :cool:


I'm guessing no good at practical space travel and were probably native to the Zerus system, rather than some silly retcon that doesn't understand how genes work.

Thing is, "the Overlords simply were no good at practical space travel" is still not a good enough of a handwave when we have the Overmind's assessment that it was "looking for something - anything - that would transport them from this world" (the implication here is that the Overmind had no space-faring capability whatsoever) and that Gargantis Proximae, the supposed core genus of the Overlords and were apparently assimilated earlier than the aforementioned assessment by the Overmind, are inherently space-faring (ie: it already had space-faring capability). The conclusion of this must be then that the Overmind was stupid or forgetful for making that assessment of having no space-faring capability to leave Zerus. You can see how that wouldn't sit very well....

A possible resolution (which is still mind-numbing but with less direct contradiction) is that the initial Zerusian Overlords, which were used to coordinate and transport troops (it didn't say it had heightened senses which was ostensibly what the Gargantis were assimilated for), did not actually originate from Gargantis Proximae. That the core genus on the manual entry of the Overlord is specified as Gargantis Proximae suggests then that it's referring to the core genus of the current/Sc1 time period Overlord, and not the original Zerusian Overlord. Mental gymnastics complete. :p

[Mislagnissa]

Wait, Behemoths are in the game?
http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Behemoth


Thing is, "the Overlords simply were no good at practical space travel" is still not a good enough of a handwave when we have the Overmind's assessment that it was "looking for something - anything - that would transport them from this world" (the implication here is that what the Overmind had no space-faring capability whatsoever) and that Gargantis Proximae, the supposed core genus of the Overlords and were apparently assimilated earlier than the aforementioned assessment by the Overmind, are inherently space-faring (ie: it already had space-faring capability). The conclusion of this must be then that the Overmind was stupid or forgetful for making that assessment of having no space-faring capability to leave Zerus. You can see how that wouldn't sit very well....

A possible resolution (which is still mind-numbing but with less direct contradiction) is that the initial Zerusian Overlords, which were used to coordinate and transport troops (it didn't say it had heightened senses which was ostensibly what the Gargantis were assimilated for), did not actually originate from Gargantis Proximae. That the core genus on the manual entry of the Overlord is specified as Gargantis Proximae suggests then that it's referring to the core genus of the current/Sc1 time period Overlord, and not the original Zerusian Overlord. Mental gymnastics complete. :p
Maybe the manual was simply confused about the gargantis proximae being space faring? It has a number of continuity errors due to changes over development and insufficient proofreading. It's not in the PDF version, but apparently one printing has the mutalisks spray acid (they did in beta, but changed to glave wurm).

[Turalyon]

Maybe the manual was simply confused about the gargantis proximae being space faring? It has a number of continuity errors due to changes over development and insufficient proofreading. It's not in the PDF version, but apparently one printing has the mutalisks spray acid (they did in beta, but changed to glave wurm).

If you're willing to just cherry-pick that as being the thing that is "confused"/wrong, then that just sets the precedent that I can cherry-pick something in the manual to be "confused"/wrong as well. Better to avoid that slippery slope methinks.

As to the Mutalisk thing, that seems like a gameplay/story segregation issue more than anything else (file that along with Marines being able to gun down Battlecruisers and so forth). The ending cinematic of Tassadar crashing the Gantrithor into the Overmind still has the Mutalisk spraying acid - as the manual said they would.

[Mislagnissa]

If you're willing to just cherry-pick that as being the thing that is "confused"/wrong, then that just sets the precedent that I can cherry-pick something in the manual to be "confused"/wrong as well. Better to avoid that slippery slope methinks.Maybe there were multiple populations of the Gargantis genus, some of whom had space flight and some that did not? Maybe those that settled on Zerus before the rise of the Zerg lost their space flight adaptation due to mutation?

[ragnarok]

Wait, Behemoths are in the game?

Many of us didn't initially know, VoK, trust me. I originally had thought they were first mentioned in the DT Saga

[Turalyon]

Maybe there were multiple populations of the Gargantis genus, some of whom had space flight and some that did not? Maybe those that settled on Zerus before the rise of the Zerg lost their space flight adaptation due to mutation?

Perhaps, but then you'd have to consider why it was specifically mentioned they were space-faring at all, right? Saying the manual was incorrect or that it meant something entirely else is to court contradiction to solve an apparent contradiction and that does not get you to Occam's razor. If we are to take everything said in the manual at face value/being all true, deduction would suggest that the Gargantis being the core genus of the Overlord is for the Overlords seen in Sc1 and not the early Overlords as described in the Zerg History since it can fit and there is no contradictory evidence against it.

[Mislagnissa]

Perhaps, but then you'd have to consider why it was specifically mentioned they were space-faring at all, right? Saying the manual was incorrect or that it meant something entirely else is to court contradiction to solve an apparent contradiction and that does not get you to Occam's razor. If we are to take everything said in the manual at face value/being all true, deduction would suggest that the Gargantis being the core genus of the Overlord is for the Overlords seen in Sc1 and not the early Overlords as described in the Zerg History since it can fit and there is no contradictory evidence against it.The manual has several irreconcilable contradictions. In the history section the overlords and "gargantuan, space-faring life forms" are clearly separate entities. In the units section they are conflated and called "space-faring behemoths."

The games and expanded universe get worse. "The Warp" cinematic, "Shadow of the Xel'naga" and the Galaxy Editor apparently split the overlords and behemoth/leviathan/bio-ship/whatever into different entities. "Just an Overlord" gives the overlords an inverted backstory where they summoned the Zerg rather than the other way around.

Taking these sources at face value, we get the following series of events:

"overlords" (core genus: unknown) assimilated on Zerus, used as control nexuses and transport
"gargantuan, space-faring life forms" (core genus: behemoth?) lured by beacon, assimilated
Zerg leave Zerus to go on a galactic eating spree
Gargantis proximae cry out for salvation, answered by the Zerg


This is just as you suggest, but I still find the similarities between the two types of overlord, and between the behemoth and gargantis proximae, too fishy to be coincidence.

[Gradius]

The wiki page doesn’t say behemoths are in the game. There are those manta ray creatures from the Nova missions though.

[drakolobo]

The manual has several irreconcilable contradictions. In the history section the overlords and "gargantuan, space-faring life forms" are clearly separate entities. In the units section they are conflated and called "space-faring behemoths."

The games and expanded universe get worse. "The Warp" cinematic, "Shadow of the Xel'naga" and the Galaxy Editor apparently split the overlords and behemoth/leviathan/bio-ship/whatever into different entities. "Just an Overlord" gives the overlords an inverted backstory where they summoned the Zerg rather than the other way around.

Taking these sources at face value, we get the following series of events:

"overlords" (core genus: unknown) assimilated on Zerus, used as control nexuses and transport
"gargantuan, space-faring life forms" (core genus: behemoth?) lured by beacon, assimilated
Zerg leave Zerus to go on a galactic eating spree
Gargantis proximae cry out for salvation, answered by the Zerg


This is just as you suggest, but I still find the similarities between the two types of overlord, and between the behemoth and gargantis proximae, too fishy to be coincidence.
source and quote for number 1 in list ?

[Turalyon]

The manual has several irreconcilable contradictions. In the history section the overlords and "gargantuan, space-faring life forms" are clearly separate entities. In the units section they are conflated and called "space-faring behemoths."

The games and expanded universe get worse. "The Warp" cinematic, "Shadow of the Xel'naga" and the Galaxy Editor apparently split the overlords and behemoth/leviathan/bio-ship/whatever into different entities. "Just an Overlord" gives the overlords an inverted backstory where they summoned the Zerg rather than the other way around.

Taking these sources at face value, we get the following series of events:

"overlords" (core genus: unknown) assimilated on Zerus, used as control nexuses and transport
"gargantuan, space-faring life forms" (core genus: behemoth?) lured by beacon, assimilated
Zerg leave Zerus to go on a galactic eating spree
Gargantis proximae cry out for salvation, answered by the Zerg


This is just as you suggest, but I still find the similarities between the two types of overlord, and between the behemoth and gargantis proximae, too fishy to be coincidence.

Not quite. The contradiction can be reconciled by regarding the history section as "earlier" history whilst the unit section of the Overlord description can be regarded as "later" history. Overlords, in general, have always had the responsibility of transporting units and directing them in battle, but it isn't clear whether the Overlords described in the history section actually came from Gargantis Proximae since the unit description of the Overlord states that the reason the Gargantis were brought into the Swarm was due primarily to their heightened senses, not due to their ability to direct or transport minions (if the Gargantis could even do that to begin with that is). It appears that the primary reason for why the history section Overlords exist is for the directing and transporting of Zerg, so we can assume the core genus of those Overlords had such traits. Also, the Overlords we see in Sc1 have the responsibility of providing control, transporting Zerg and advanced scouting/detecting hidden things with their enhanced senses - which is what the unit section describes but not what the history section describes.

Whether this ommission in the history section was intended or not is beside the point since the effect of this ommission allows us latitude to reconcile that Overlords and Gargantis can be separate in one instance (as it may have been initially) but also conflated as one in another instance (as it may have been later on). The alternative of taking the unit description of the Overlord origins as the same origins of the Overlords in the history section brings forth the greater irreconcilable contradiction/incongruity in that it already had the means to enter space (because Gargantis are space-faring) but then later on in the history section, the Overmind explicitly and assuredly states that they are so incapable of getting into space that it's actively looking for "something - anything" when it really need not.

Keep in mind, I'm limiting this perspective to only what we know from the manual (like you would in the first instance when it was the only resource at our disposal back then). As such, the sequence of events would actually be thus:

Core genus: unknown assimilated on Zerus to become "Overlords", used as control nexuses and transport
"gargantuan, space-faring life forms" (core genus: Gargantis Proximae) lured by beacon, assimilated. They become the Overlords we all know from now on
Zerg leave Zerus to go on a galactic eating spree

[Mislagnissa]

Whether this ommission in the history section was intended or not is beside the point since the effect of this ommission allows us latitude to reconcile that Overlords and Gargantis can be separate in one instance (as it may have been initially) but also conflated as one in another instance (as it may have been later on). The alternative of taking the unit description of the Overlord origins as the same origins of the Overlords in the history section brings forth the greater irreconcilable contradiction/incongruity in that it already had the means to enter space (because Gargantis are space-faring) but then later on in the history section, the Overmind explicitly and assuredly states that they are so incapable of getting into space that it's actively looking for "something - anything" when it really need not.Maybe the Gargantis hitched rides on behemoths or leviathans rather than traveled under their own power? A group of them were stranded on Zerus, called for help and the Zerg answered.

[Nolanstar]

The wiki page doesn’t say behemoths are in the game. There are those manta ray creatures from the Nova missions though.

Those are apparently just the local Kasai Whales, which while they are propably space capable given showing up on multiple planets are non-zerg organisms. They just look a lot like them...


Is it possible that the Gargantus called to the overmind seeking assimilation when the overmind still did not have the capacity to get off of zerus? And that the psi-broadcasting lured the behemoth creatures to zerus which allowed the overlord to reach the gargantus. Just yet another theory...

[ragnarok]

Is it possible that the Gargantus called to the overmind seeking assimilation when the overmind still did not have the capacity to get off of zerus? And that the psi-broadcasting lured the behemoth creatures to zerus which allowed the overlord to reach the gargantus. Just yet another theory...

This really makes me wonder where the limits of the Overmind would be according to the SC1 lore. You'd think after assimilating the Xel'Naga it'd already have the capacity to get off Zerus, not wait several hundred years later after all life on Zerus is consumed for it.

Unless, of course, the Gargantus called to the Overmind before it assimilated the Xel'Naga

[Turalyon]

Maybe the Gargantis hitched rides on behemoths or leviathans rather than traveled under their own power?

Could be, but consider the number of steps you have to spin/fanon in order to justify getting to the point that the Overlords first mentioned in the history section came from Gargantis. Also, even though this solution doesn't technically contradict the term "space-faring" (it's about the act of traveling in space but not how it does so), it confuses the matter when both the history section and the unit section use the term "space-faring" to describe the "gargantuan" life forms and the Gargantis respectively. How is one to know that "space-faring" specifically means being able to travel in space on its own ability for the gargantuan life forms (the supposed Behemoths), yet that it specifically means something different/hitching a ride for the Gargantis? That's a lot of things to just naturally assume the audience to figure out on their own.

It's simpler to just say that the Overlords first mentioned in the Zerg history did not originate from Gargantis, since that will not conflict what is said in the manual and resolves the apparent plot hole. Sure, it's still somewhat of an additive retcon in the end, but it's a lesser one that doesn't have to contort/reinterpret too much of what was already stated. This is what makes a good retcon (yes, they do exist :p).


A group of them... called for help and the Zerg answered.

I left this bit out since it's irrelevant to resolving the apparent plot hole that exists within the manual using only the information at hand (and that it being information gained after the fact/ an additive retcon that confounds what we have in the manual even more) but I was curious about the origins of this. Where was this specifically stated again? I don't recall the "Just an Overlord" short story saying that the Gargantis called the Zerg to them.

[Mislagnissa]

I left this bit out since it's irrelevant to resolving the apparent plot hole that exists within the manual using only the information at hand (and that it being information gained after the fact/ an additive retcon that confounds what we have in the manual even more) but I was curious about the origins of this. Where was this specifically stated again? I don't recall the "Just an Overlord" short story saying that the Gargantis called the Zerg to them.
Here's an excerpt from the opening scrawl, with my clarifications in brackets: (Bold text present in original.)

The ancient homeworlds, remembered we [G. proximae]. The starving young, remembered we [G. proximae].
The fear, remembered we [G. proximae].
To the We [Zerg], called we [G. proximae]. Saved us [G. proximae], the We [Zerg]. Became [overlord], we [G. proximae].
This is consistent with the overlords being assimilated on Zerus prior to the mysterious space faring creatures. Hence my presumption that the G. proximae hitched rides on space faring creatures by luring them with their telepathy. Maybe the Overmind got the idea to do so from the overlords it assimilated.

[Turalyon]

This is consistent with the overlords being assimilated on Zerus prior to the mysterious space faring creatures. Hence my presumption that the G. proximae hitched rides on space faring creatures by luring them with their telepathy. Maybe the Overmind got the idea to do so from the overlords it assimilated.

Hmm, I would hesitate to call this definitive proof or a reliable source to hang your presumptions on though. For one, it is retroactive continuity. We don't have the benefit of knowing this at the time when we only had the manual as reference. Two, the perspective of the manual is seemingly from an "ominiscient narrator" whilst the Overlord exerpt is a personal/subjective recollection. We have no reason to doubt the veracity of the information from the manual at the time (until a later retcon proves otherwise - which is what point one is about), whilst the Overlords are giving their potentially skewed interpretation of past events. The "psychic beacon" the Overmind sent out may still have been the initial inciting cause for the Gargantis to know of the existence of the Zerg before they then called to the Zerg themselves (also, the "psychic beacon" need no further explanation of its origin beyond the fact that the Overmind was just reaching out it with its senses). Third, the Overlords words are hardly specific or exact in terms of the when, what and how of things.

And yeah sure, it can align with your theory but not mutually exclusively to anything else. In fact, it still doesn't resolve the original and apparent plot hole/inconsistency of why the Overmind still didn't have any means to get off Zerus until those space faring gargantuan life-forms appeared when it supposedly had a means already through their early and initial assimilation of space-faring Gargantis (irrespective of its actual functional efficiency/utility). Your theory requires more and more fanon to justify it whilst mine requires comparatively little. It also doesn't clarify why one should expect "space-faring" for the Gargantis/Overlord entry to mean "hitching a ride on actual self-propelled space-faring creatures" whilst one should simultaneously expect it to mean self-propelled space-flight for those gargantuan life-forms described in the history.

[Mislagnissa]

Hmm, I would hesitate to call this definitive proof or a reliable source to hang your presumptions on though. For one, it is retroactive continuity. We don't have the benefit of knowing this at the time when we only had the manual as reference. Two, the perspective of the manual is seemingly from an "ominiscient narrator" whilst the Overlord exerpt is a personal/subjective recollection. We have no reason to doubt the veracity of the information from the manual at the time (until a later retcon proves otherwise - which is what point one is about), whilst the Overlords are giving their potentially skewed interpretation of past events. The "psychic beacon" the Overmind sent out may still have been the initial inciting cause for the Gargantis to know of the existence of the Zerg before they then called to the Zerg themselves (also, the "psychic beacon" need no further explanation of its origin beyond the fact that the Overmind was just reaching out it with its senses). Third, the Overlords words are hardly specific or exact in terms of the when, what and how of things.

And yeah sure, it can align with your theory but not mutually exclusively to anything else. In fact, it still doesn't resolve the original and apparent plot hole/inconsistency of why the Overmind still didn't have any means to get off Zerus until those space faring gargantuan life-forms appeared when it supposedly had a means already through their early and initial assimilation of space-faring Gargantis (irrespective of its actual functional efficiency/utility). Your theory requires more and more fanon to justify it whilst mine requires comparatively little. It also doesn't clarify why one should expect "space-faring" for the Gargantis/Overlord entry to mean "hitching a ride on actual self-propelled space-faring creatures" whilst one should simultaneously expect it to mean self-propelled space-flight for those gargantuan life-forms described in the history.
I do not have a compelling reply. This entire argument boils down to semantics. Even so, it is fairly minor and I think we are all being a bit too anal about it.

Even if it requires tinkering with semantics, I like the narrative of the doomed innocent Gargantis calling for help, joining the Zerg and becoming instrumental to their subjugation of Zerus and eventually countless other worlds (or at least speeding up their timetable). All the while the overlords are conscious and enjoying their new existence, becoming functionally immortal, retaining their memories and even getting their intelligence enhanced by their new ruler. It makes the Zerg seemingly compassionate while remaining an all-consuming swarm of monsters. It parallels the similar rise to power of the original Zerg insectoids, which were soil-dwelling nematodes or something like that when they were first discovered. Best of all, it is a simple "travel from point A to B" plot.

This is nowhere near the level of the many, many horrible retcons littering the games, like Ep2 changing the motivation of the Zerg to capturing Kerry rather than all psychics, Ep4+ changing the dark templar from nomads to settlers, the UED coming out of nowhere, Kerry suddenly becoming supposedly hyper-competent whilst actually tricking people into doing whatever they were going to do anyway, or the retcons in SC2 that turned the xel'naga into bargain bin WarCraft titans (complete with Sargeras wannabe) and removed all agency from the Zerg (who became pawns of the villain of the week) and Protoss (who had all their achievements retconned into xel'naga achievements).

[Turalyon]

I do not have a compelling reply. This entire argument boils down to semantics. Even so, it is fairly minor and I think we are all being a bit too anal about it.

The semantics are important in this case though - otherwise we wouldn't be complaining about apparent inconsistency or plot holes in the first place. ;)


Even if it requires tinkering with semantics, I like the narrative of the doomed innocent Gargantis calling for help, joining the Zerg and becoming instrumental to their subjugation of Zerus and eventually countless other worlds (or at least speeding up their timetable).

The only tinkering of semantics I need for this to fit my explanation of the "space-faring Gargantis" plot hole is to remove the "becoming instrumental to their subjugation of Zerus" part, otherwise, I don't mind this particular narrative either.


like Ep2 changing the motivation of the Zerg to capturing Kerry rather than all psychics

I don't really see the problem here since Kerrigan is a psychic and the Zerg captured a psychic as per their motivation. While the question of why it took this long to capture a psychic and why it seems to be only Kerrigan being the only viable candidate is not elaborated remains, one can only assume that up until it found Kerrigan, it must have been difficult for the Overmind to do so. Were it not, it would've found and done something about them sooner (like creating that psychic army you're so keen on). The short story The Education of PHC Shane seems to suggest that even creating mindless infested Terrans requires some acceptance of the host to the infestation process. One can only imagine then how difficult it would be to try and preserve the mind of a psychic (since it would be tied to its powers one would think) and infest it so that it retains it intelligence, does the bidding of the Overmind and doesn't just break under the stress.


Ep4+ changing the dark templar from nomads to settlers, the UED coming out of nowhere, Kerry suddenly becoming supposedly hyper-competent whilst actually tricking people into doing whatever they were going to do anyway, or the retcons in SC2 that turned the xel'naga into bargain bin WarCraft titans (complete with Sargeras wannabe) and removed all agency from the Zerg (who became pawns of the villain of the week) and Protoss (who had all their achievements retconned into xel'naga achievements).

I am in agreement with all this though... The "Kerry hyper-competence" is compounded by some of the idiocy displayed by other characters too (Aldaris and Mengsk in particular). Oh oh, and don't forget the OPness of Kerrigan with her somehow mind-controlling a freakin' Dark Templar Matriarch and the general OPness of Zerg, who are so apparently mindless and weak without an Overmind (immature one or not) that they are close to defeating the Dark Templar on their home planet unless some magic crystals and temple are needed to get rid of them.

[ragnarok]

I am in agreement with all this though... The "Kerry hyper-competence" is compounded by some of the idiocy displayed by other characters too (Aldaris and Mengsk in particular). Oh oh, and don't forget the OPness of Kerrigan with her somehow mind-controlling a freakin' Dark Templar Matriarch and the general OPness of Zerg, who are so apparently mindless and weak without an Overmind (immature one or not) that they are close to defeating the Dark Templar on their home planet unless some magic crystals and temple are needed to get rid of them.

Tell me something Tura, with the whole psionic abilities decreasing with age and everything (something they said with Mohandar in SC2), do you think this could have happened with Raszagal? Or do you believe this was only a concept they made for SC2's sake?

[Turalyon]

Tell me something Tura, with the whole psionic abilities decreasing with age and everything (something they said with Mohandar in SC2), do you think this could have happened with Raszagal? Or do you believe this was only a concept they made for SC2's sake?

I'm sure the Watsonian/in-universe "reason" is what you say it is but it's never really made apparent in the game that you can infer it from the presented narrative. Even with the character description in the BW manual giving a possible reason for it, it's still pretty much an open plot hole. As such, one is left to conclude that the "reason" for it is that it's an obvious Doylist/out-of-universe one - a conceit to wring drama out of the narrative. Not that that is inherently "bad" mind you. It gave us a pathos enriched scene and development for Zeratul and it elevates the threat and power of the protagonist character, Kerrigan but it comes at the expense of it feeling like it's manufactured and/or potentially breaking immersion since you can see the writer "pulling the strings". Incidentally, I think that once we get past the subjective hate/bias that some have over the Kerrigan character, this is the underlying core of what the "Kerrigan is a Mary-sue in BW" position is about.

[ragnarok]

I'm sure the Watsonian/in-universe "reason" is what you say it is but it's never really made apparent in the game that you can infer it from the presented narrative. Even with the character description in the BW manual giving a possible reason for it, it's still pretty much an open plot hole. As such, one is left to conclude that the "reason" for it is that it's an obvious Doylist/out-of-universe one - a conceit to wring drama out of the narrative. Not that that is inherently "bad" mind you. It gave us a pathos enriched scene and development for Zeratul and it elevates the threat and power of the protagonist character, Kerrigan but it comes at the expense of it feeling like it's manufactured and/or potentially breaking immersion since you can see the writer "pulling the strings". Incidentally, I think that once we get past the subjective hate/bias that some have over the Kerrigan character, this is the underlying core of what the "Kerrigan is a Mary-sue in BW" position is about.

I never saw that as Mary Sue if the psionic decay concept was true. Plus if that WAS the case she might as well have just used that on the rest of the Protoss people after HotS to ensure they don't go after her. Granted you can argue that due to the LotV writing, they kind of did just that anyway....

[Turalyon]

I only just realised how off-topic my rants are going after I was done writing this reply. Oh well, feel free to ignore the following... :p


I never saw that as Mary Sue if the psionic decay concept was true.

That's because it's not a direct connection. The claims of "Kerrigan being a Mary-Sue" are about how the narrative is favoured to that particular character. Everything they do or not do ends up benefiting that character regardless. This is bad because it exposes the writers involvement in the work and breaks immersion because instead of allowing us to view the fictional universe in Watsonian way (in that what happened had verisimilitude/ is natural/reasonable in that universe), it forces us to view it in a Doylist way (in that it seems like a conceit/gimmick written in specifically due to some authorial intent).

The most egregious example of this for Kerrigan is the mind control of Raszagal. There is no context for it being even possible within the game itself (Protoss, psionic creatures with no peer, can be mind-controlled?!) and is an immensely OP ability that has certain implications. If Raszagal was the most powerful Dark Templar but was only mind-controllable by Kerrigan because she was older and weaker than when she was in her prime, that would mean her powers should be at the level of an average Dark Templar, right? She can't be weaker than an average Dark Templar because she wouldn't make for a good leader without powers would she? But yet we don't see Kerrigan just outright mind-controlling Zeratul or any other Dark Templar, do we?

As such, the "mind control of Raszagal " seems to be there solely as plot device/conceit in order to move the story in a particular way. Whilst this "particular way" is simply just to a) give/allow pathos to Zeratul (which was admittedly quite affecting) and b) to allow the Zerg (whom Kerrigan is designated as the representative of) to be the victors in their own campaign, people like to think (for one reason or another) that this "particular way" is about inflating Kerrigan's importance (ie the Mary-Sue accusations). Whilst that "Mary-Sue" position does have merit on its own when regarding BW in isolation, it has only really gained more strength over the years due in part to how Sc2 turned out (the focus on protagonist centred morality didn't help).

Sc1 was better in this regard because although it does follow specific characters and has conceits to move the narrative along the characters don't seem to be overly favoured or lead a charmed life. Sure, the apparent "deaths" of Kerrigan in Rebel Yell and Fenix in The Fall can be seen as being purposefully manipulative by the authors because they turn out to not actually die but ultimately, both of these characters aren't overtly crucial to the plot progression. The narrative doesn't hinge or turn on a dime because those resurrected characters aren't really doing major important plot-related things. That last point is crucial in understanding why Kerrigan is ignored at the end of the Overmind campaign.

Whilst infested Kerrigan is seemingly important in the Overmind campaign due to the majority of its focus on her and that apparently the setup is about finding, exploiting and using psionics to help fight the Protoss, her exclusion in the last few missions suggests that she's not really as important one would think she is because it's ultimately all about the namesake of the campaign, the Overmind. Kerrigan was just a vanity project for the Overmind in order to highlight its weakness of hubris. And, carrying on the sentiment that no single character is that important in Sc1, the Overmind is eventually killed despite how important it felt it was. It's great because it totally upends the whole setup of the Overmind in that it initially thinks it needs this determinant to win against the Protoss but it was ultimately proved wrong on two counts: 1) While it did get its determinant in Kerrigan, the Overmind became so overconfident that it had already won that it had unwittingly overextended itself and 2) the "determinant" isn't really that special and effective as the Overmind believed it was since Kerrigan failed, despite her fervor and capability, in her task to stop the Protoss that would eventually end up killing the Overmind.

[ragnarok]

The most egregious example of this for Kerrigan is the mind control of Raszagal. There is no context for it being even possible within the game itself (Protoss, psionic creatures with no peer, can be mind-controlled?!) and is an immensely OP ability that has certain implications. If Raszagal was the most powerful Dark Templar but was only mind-controllable by Kerrigan because she was older and weaker than when she was in her prime, that would mean her powers should be at the level of an average Dark Templar, right? She can't be weaker than an average Dark Templar because she wouldn't make for a good leader without powers would she? But yet we don't see Kerrigan just outright mind-controlling Zeratul or any other Dark Templar, do we?


I'll give you that one. Personally my reaction when I got to that point was that while it explained Raszagal's behavior in "Countdown," it was starting to get a little out of hand because you can't just pull abilities out of nowhere with no explanations at all other than "because you underestimated my power." Being mind controlled is nothing new given the Dark Archon ability, but for Kerrigan to have it seemed irrational. Plus if she did have it she would have used it more in WoL, HotS, and LotV anyway. In that regard I agreed there was supposed to be a limit to where her power could go, and Blizzard failed to understand that.

[Mislagnissa]

I don't really see the problem here since Kerrigan is a psychic and the Zerg captured a psychic as per their motivation. While the question of why it took this long to capture a psychic and why it seems to be only Kerrigan being the only viable candidate is not elaborated remains, one can only assume that up until it found Kerrigan, it must have been difficult for the Overmind to do so. Were it not, it would've found and done something about them sooner (like creating that psychic army you're so keen on). The short story The Education of PHC Shane seems to suggest that even creating mindless infested Terrans requires some acceptance of the host to the infestation process. One can only imagine then how difficult it would be to try and preserve the mind of a psychic (since it would be tied to its powers one would think) and infest it so that it retains it intelligence, does the bidding of the Overmind and doesn't just break under the stress.Kerry's significance in Episode II is a retcon, and so is any attempt to rationalize. Before the retcons there was no reason to believe infesting humans was inordinately difficult, and most of the portrayals of infestation do not follow this retcon.

In the case of Shane, it's arguable whether that's a limitation of the infestor infesting him or an attempt at compassion. With the exception of Amanda Haley, every other infested terran character suffered no loss of intelligence or psychic ability if they had it.

Atticus Carpenter from Insurrection is a much more believable example of an infested terran taking over the Zerg, IMO. Rather than pulling infinite Zerg controlling powers out of his ass like Kerry, his consciousness was absorbed and assumed by the cerebrate that infested him. This also lends more credence to the Overmind's obsession with acquiring Terran psychic potential. If a single ghost was capable of fracturing an entire brood from the Swarm, imagine what an army of them could do against the Protoss.


I'm sure the Watsonian/in-universe "reason" is what you say it is but it's never really made apparent in the game that you can infer it from the presented narrative. Even with the character description in the BW manual giving a possible reason for it, it's still pretty much an open plot hole. As such, one is left to conclude that the "reason" for it is that it's an obvious Doylist/out-of-universe one - a conceit to wring drama out of the narrative. Not that that is inherently "bad" mind you. It gave us a pathos enriched scene and development for Zeratul and it elevates the threat and power of the protagonist character, Kerrigan but it comes at the expense of it feeling like it's manufactured and/or potentially breaking immersion since you can see the writer "pulling the strings". Incidentally, I think that once we get past the subjective hate/bias that some have over the Kerrigan character, this is the underlying core of what the "Kerrigan is a Mary-sue in BW" position is about.There is no possible way the Zerg could have subverted Razsagal, unless they launched an offensive against the entire Protoss Empire including the dark templar when they invaded.

One of the problems with canon is that there is no indication of Protoss worlds other than Aiur and Shakuras except for the forgettable filler missions, despite the original manual stating their empire covers an eighth of the galaxy or something.

If the Zerg were assaulting the entire empire, engaging in psychic warfare against the khala and so forth, and the conflict lasted more than a couple of months, it would make more sense that Razsagal's senility would be taken advantage of.

Which reminds me that I have to get back to working on my rewrite of the Starcraft plot.

[Turalyon]

Kerry's significance in Episode II is a retcon, and so is any attempt to rationalize.

Please explain what you mean by this. I already know and have said that Kerrigan's actual and objective significance for the Zerg in Episode II is actually nothing more than the subjective significance/positive bias foisted onto her by the Overmind. Indeed, her objective significance in Starcraft 1 alone (disregarding BW for the moment) was actually to usher in the defeat of the Overmind/Zerg and not to ensure total Zerg victory as the backstory would have you believe. Her inclusion into the Swarm led to the cascade of events that led to the Overmind's downfall. In a way, Kerrigan's actual significance to the entire Sc1 plot is a subversion of what was to be initially expected.


Before the retcons there was no reason to believe infesting humans was inordinately difficult, and most of the portrayals of infestation do not follow this retcon.

It obviously was difficult for the Zerg to find and infest a psychic human though because logic would dictate that if it were easily acquirable, it would've had one (with the resulting consequences of having one) way before the events that transpired in Rebel Yell, right? If the Zerg already had captured a psychic prior to the beginning of Sc1, the plot in Sc1 would be totally different from what we actually got.


In the case of Shane, it's arguable whether that's a limitation of the infestor infesting him or an attempt at compassion.

Gotta love the wiggle room that that ambiguity provides.


Rather than pulling infinite Zerg controlling powers out of his ass like Kerry, his consciousness was absorbed and assumed by the cerebrate that infested him.

Thing is, Sc1 Kerrigan (not BW Kerrigan - the distinction is important) does not have infinite Zerg controlling powers. She's actually under the the care of the cerebrate that was assigned to watch and protect over her, not controlling the Zerg. She's just billed as a unique and (most) powerful agent of the Swarm, which she is. However, Sc1 Kerrigan exhibits no insane and overpowered abilities... until BW. Sc1 Kerrigan has weaknesses and is exploited/outmaneuvered despite being the supposed "best" weapon they have against Protoss. She fails to kill the Protoss that will eventually end up killing the Overmind. Sc1 Kerrigan is not the "bees knees" that the Overmind thinks she is. The Overmind "needing" a psionic to beat the Protoss turns out to be just a fanciful pipe dream, with Kerrigan really just being the culmination of said pipe dream.


There is no possible way the Zerg could have subverted Razsagal, unless they launched an offensive against the entire Protoss Empire including the dark templar when they invaded.

Whether the Watsonian explanation was that she was senile or that she was taxed due to stress of fighting the Zerg, the Khalai insurrection whilst maintaining rule over her people, it's all rather semantic and open to fanwank. The point is that there was nothing apparent in the game or the existing material at the time to give a reasonable Watsonian explanation for it in the first place. People are then forced to surmise a Doylist explanation for it, hence all the outcry of it being an asspull and that Kerrigan being OP/Mary Sue.

[Nissa]

However, Sc1 Kerrigan exhibits no insane and overpowered abilities... until BW.

I don't understand. In BW she does not have insane and overpowered abilities. She's heavily dependent on her cerebrate, Duran, Raynor, Mengsk, Raszagal, Zeratul, and Fenix to accomplish her goals. She does essentially nothing by herself.

[Turalyon]

In BW she does not have insane and overpowered abilities.

She can control all the Zerg and can mind control Dark Templar. She also has this unusual knack of everything going her way despite her plans being dependent on people being dumb where appropriate.

[Mislagnissa]

I don't understand. In BW she does not have insane and overpowered abilities. She's heavily dependent on her cerebrate, Duran, Raynor, Mengsk, Raszagal, Zeratul, and Fenix to accomplish her goals. She does essentially nothing by herself.

There are a couple of fanfics which point this out.

"If the Magistrate were Infested (https://www.fanfiction.net/s/12222982/1/If-the-Magistrate-were-Infested)" is an adaptation of Episode 2 and beyond where the protagonist/narrator is the Magistrate from Rebel Yell, who disobeys Mengsk to assist Kerry and gets infested for his trouble. Magis in the only sane character in the entire story and his internal monologues constantly point out how everyone around him is either stupid or insane. There's absolutely no tension in the story, and there are still loads of plot holes, but it is very funny. In a refreshing change from typical goody-two-shoes protagonists, Magis still shares the Zerg goal of conquering the universe and pretty much becomes the new Overmind.

"Birth of a Queen (https://www.fanfiction.net/s/12618357/1/Birth-of-a-Queen)" is an adaptation of Episode 2. Unlike the Queen of Blades novel, it constantly bashes Kerry. The protagonist/narrator hates her and constantly points out her inadequacy (apparently infestation gave her severe brain damage). Also, the Raynor and Duke subplot is changed to the Dominion assaulting Char to stop the Zerg because that makes more sense than a cheap cameo. Unfortunately, the protagonist/narrator is supposed to be a "good" Zerg, which in this case means he's a complete pacifist who only fights because the Overmind tells him to. This is a suicidal character trait to have in a military scifi setting and I have no idea how the author intends to develop his character.

The idea of "good" Zerg is just so obviously stupid that I have no idea why it keeps popping up in fanfics and custom campaigns. Both the parasitic Zerg in the SC1 backstory and the primal Zerg retconned into SC2 are monsters motivated solely by survival and reproduction. The Overmind not only shared this motivation, but provided the unity required to pursue it on a galactic scale. It's not possible for Zerg to be peaceful because their alien psychology perceives all life other than themselves to be hosts and food.

Speaking of which, there's like three or so custom campaigns where the Overmind returns from the dead. In one mission of Replicant, Niadra fuses with the Overmind's corpse and becomes the new Overmind for about fives minutes before being re-killed by some dark templar. In Evolution of the Swarm, which died after the third mission was made, the Overmind spontaneously begins to revive without explanation and for no apparent reason Abathur, Zagara and Dehaka are terrified of this and seek to re-kill the Overmind. In Time Convergence, the Overmind (and Abathur, who replaces the now nonexistent cerebrates) is out and out stated to be immune to death regardless of dark templar magic so long as the Zerg exist. Enslavers Redux shows Overmind capable of resurrecting the bodies of cerebrates who were permanently killed (admittedly without dark templar magic, but what's the difference?).

There's almost no Zerg custom campaigns, much less completed ones, but what few exist fall into one of three or so plots. Either the Zerg are trying to survive or defend themselves (Brood, Annihilation), trying to eat choice genomes and conquer the universe (Brood's Wrath and its sequel Shadow of the Brood), or they are trying to help the Terrans and Protoss maintain peace (pretty much every other custom campaign).

I have no idea why anyone makes Zerg campaigns if they're portrayed as interchangeable with Terrans or Protoss in terms of behavior. Why does anyone even like the Zerg? What makes them stand out from Terrans and Protoss? Are they just muppets now?

[ragnarok]

I don't understand. In BW she does not have insane and overpowered abilities. She's heavily dependent on her cerebrate, Duran, Raynor, Mengsk, Raszagal, Zeratul, and Fenix to accomplish her goals. She does essentially nothing by herself.

They wanted to make her smarter in SC2, which turned out a disaster. After BW she foolishly thought she could pwn everything without even a strategy. Hence the reason she lost at the end of WoL.

Depending on them in BW was vital because Blizzard didn't want to develop her to be omnipotent, which made sense as NO ONE is supposed to have limitless power. They forgot the whole matter later on.

[Turalyon]

I have no idea why anyone makes Zerg campaigns if they're portrayed as interchangeable with Terrans or Protoss in terms of behavior.

Zerg are just hard to write for and don't lend themselves well to a conventional narrative. And, writers can only write about what they know. You start giving them personalities then of course they're going to inevitably draw parallels to Terrans and Protoss because the writers are human. Abathur is a good Zerg character not because it has personality quirks and is "interesting" but because it feels like what a quintessential Zerg character should be like: detached, unemotional, single-minded, efficient.


Why does anyone even like the Zerg? What makes them stand out from Terrans and Protoss?

I think that the concept of the Zerg and the idea of what they're about is where the appeal is. Like all other similarly related sci-fi insectoid/swarm like aliens, they are unrelenting, unfettered, unrelatable and unified (that's a lot of "u" words). They represent the horror that something is out to get you, and that that something does not do it out of some emotional need like pleasure or malice but because its just plainly in their inherent nature. It makes them kinda one-note really but that's actually part of their appeal and not a detriment.


Are they just muppets now?

Very much so ever since BW. The Zerg are nothing more than a plot device now.

[Mislagnissa]

Zerg are just hard to write for and don't lend themselves well to a conventional narrative. And, writers can only write about what they know. You start giving them personalities then of course they're going to inevitably draw parallels to Terrans and Protoss because the writers are human. Abathur is a good Zerg character not because it has personality quirks and is "interesting" but because it feels like what a quintessential Zerg character should be like: detached, unemotional, single-minded, efficient.The original manual states that cerebrates have personalities. In fact, Gorn stands out because he is merciless... meaning that other cerebrates display mercy. Probably a Zerg form of mercy where they believe in maximizing happiness by infesting everyone, but mercy nonetheless.

If you take into account that regular queens and overlords have been known to speak in complete sentences (see Retribution's overlord announcer and the WoL challenge map with the queen announcer), you could have a colorful cast of Zerg characters for each and every individual brood.

[Turalyon]

If you take into account that regular queens and overlords have been known to speak in complete sentences (see Retribution's overlord announcer and the WoL challenge map with the queen announcer), you could have a colorful cast of Zerg characters for each and every individual brood.

Not saying you can't, just that it potentially dilutes what the Zerg are really about. Going this way, it could easily devolve into them being "hat" characters - where they stand out only because of a gimmick characteristic. Dehaka stands out egregiously in this regard, though I've heard that there was originally more to this character than what we got.

[ragnarok]

Not saying you can't, just that it potentially dilutes what the Zerg are really about. Going this way, it could easily devolve into them being "hat" characters - where they stand out only because of a gimmick characteristic. Dehaka stands out egregiously in this regard, though I've heard that there was originally more to this character than what we got.

What did Blizzard originally plan to do with Dehaka?

[Nissa]

Tura, what in your opinion would solve this dilemma?

I always kinda hoped that one of the cerebrates just took off after BW, thinking that maybe as a contingency plan it would go on out until it received some kind of signal from the new Overmind. After all, the cerebrates did have their segregated roles. Alternatively, it's possible that not all of the Zerg went to Char at the beginning of Starcraft. Given that they've been exploring the universe for centuries, they might be anywhere. Probably they would have felt the Overmind's death, and have since then have been making their way back to the K Sector. This would also partially explain why Duran would have had more worlds to seed with hybrids, because some of the Zerg are more distant than others.

[Turalyon]

What did Blizzard originally plan to do with Dehaka?

I don't know. But there's a lot of talk about there being more to all the characters in HotS that were cut or just weren't developed to the fullest extent.


Tura, what in your opinion would solve this dilemma?

I always kinda hoped that one of the cerebrates just took off after BW, thinking that maybe as a contingency plan it would go on out until it received some kind of signal from the new Overmind. After all, the cerebrates did have their segregated roles. Alternatively, it's possible that not all of the Zerg went to Char at the beginning of Starcraft. Given that they've been exploring the universe for centuries, they might be anywhere. Probably they would have felt the Overmind's death, and have since then have been making their way back to the K Sector. This would also partially explain why Duran would have had more worlds to seed with hybrids, because some of the Zerg are more distant than others.

There are potentially many "outs" for this but all of them seem like forced narrative conceit at this point if we're considering continuing onto a Sc3. Having a secret cerebrate appear now will just feel too convenient.

If we were rewriting BW, highlighting the cerebrates then was a very viable option because the Overmind was out of the picture. I wouldn't have minded the cerebrates going at each other's throats and killing each other (Daggoth included) and one cerebrate with the characteristics of Abathur being the one to lead the new evolution of the Zerg because his way is more about efficiency/growth than outright dominance and killing. I would even allow Kerrigan to have her niche as well being a separate but alternate take on the Zerg (kinda like how Alleria turned out in Warcraft III: Frozen Throne where she leads the Undead branch known as the Forsaken).

I myself fanoned in my mind a long time ago that the Overmind that was killed on Aiur wasn't the Overmind, since I considered it a bodiless entity. What the "Overmind" was doing by manifesting on Aiur was to act as a beacon and a node that linked to an intergalactic network of Zerg to call in the scattered Zerg Swarms around the galaxy that were still looking for the Protoss. This could've been yet another faction of Zerg to add on to what I mentioned above. We'd have the true extended Zerg Swarm finally being alerted to where the Protoss are and coming to claim them and the wayward Zerg that got disconnected when the Overmind "node" on Aiur was destroyed. Being a Zerg fanatic, I remember secretly hoping that this was the threat that Kerrigan sensed at the end of BW even though it was most likely referring to Hybrid. Even though I found Duran's revelations interesting I actually didn't like the idea of Hybrid back then leading into a sequel largely because it potentially narrowed the conflict to an "all of us vs them" scenario rather than the initial appeal of the "it's all just us fighting each other" scenario that it was. Funnily enough, I was one of the very few who wasn't even imagining or wanting a sequel back then either.

[Mislagnissa]

I remember reading an article recapping Starcraft which referred to Zagara as a cerebrate, as the author seemed to be under the impression it was the term for Zerg commanders, much like Protoss have Executors, Praetors, Prelates, etc. BW custom campaigns have a long history of adding Zerg heroes, predating the brood mothers and pack leaders by many years. So I think we could run with that: Retcon the cerebrates from brain bugs to brood mothers, pack leaders, etc. Give a flashback to the epic battle between Zeratul and Zasz, where Zeratul gets his ass handed to him by Zasz until he uses a forbidden void nuke technique and only survived because a dark pylon warped him back at the last second.

Since the cerebrates never died in this retcon, but just fled or joined Kerry, we now have a means of reintroducing the dropped SC1 plot. A bunch of cerebrates get together and realize that the Zerg are stagnating and doomed to die. They need to kill Zagara, resurrect the Overmind, assimilate the Protoss, become the new xel'naga, and conquer the multiverse. Since the Terrans have no reason to be involved, let's bring back the forgotten plot point of Terran psychics being instrumental to the war effort to justify Zerg/Terran conflict. The Zerg invade the Koprulu sector again, essentially recreating the plot of SC1. The Defenders of Man replace the Sons of Korhal and Nova replaces Kerry, but it's otherwise the same. The Zerg withdraw to Char, again, and built an army of psychic doom. Then the Nerazim/Taldarim/whoever show up and starts permakilling cerebrates, forcing the Zerg on the defensive. Then the Zerg invade Aiur, and use a black magic ritual to resurrect Amon, who has been retconned into the same character as the Overmind. Also, the Protoss have rebuilt the Khala, the Conclave, and expelled the heretics without explanation. (Because screw logic!) Artanis, who has become a messiah for his ability to use both Void and Khala, sacrifices himself to kill Amon again. Also, the Zerg have Terran and Protoss allies in the Fist of Redemption (from Insurrection) and the Tal'darim (who worship Amon/Overmind). Blah blah blah.

The problem with Starcraft is that the series started only because the Zerg wanted to conquer the universe and needed humanity to do it, and the Protoss responded by glassing human worlds. The three races have no reason to ever interact without that setup. Absent a recreation of the plot of SC1, there is nowhere for SC3 to go.

[Nissa]

There are potentially many "outs" for this but all of them seem like forced narrative conceit at this point if we're considering continuing onto a Sc3. Having a secret cerebrate appear now will just feel too convenient.

Really? Having a logical reason is too convenient? If the Zerg are like roaches, they're bound to spread out in any direction they can. That, and it's also sensible for a cerebrate to have either escaped Kerrigan or have a role designed to prevent the convenient deaths of the cerebrates -- many cerebrates are rejoining into the new Overmind, they're going to need some to stay back so that they aren't all together to be conveniently decimated by the Protoss. It may even be possible that a cerebrate hid away until it could regrow its brood significantly. It's pure logic. After all, people got on Mengsk's case for being able to launch a manhunt against Raynor/Kerrigan despite his losses in BW. It'd be more or less the same for a cerebrate.


I myself fanoned in my mind a long time ago that the Overmind that was killed on Aiur wasn't the Overmind, since I considered it a bodiless entity. What the "Overmind" was doing by manifesting on Aiur was to act as a beacon and a node that linked to an intergalactic network of Zerg to call in the scattered Zerg Swarms around the galaxy that were still looking for the Protoss. This could've been yet another faction of Zerg to add on to what I mentioned above. We'd have the true extended Zerg Swarm finally being alerted to where the Protoss are and coming to claim them and the wayward Zerg that got disconnected when the Overmind "node" on Aiur was destroyed. Being a Zerg fanatic, I remember secretly hoping that this was the threat that Kerrigan sensed at the end of BW even though it was most likely referring to Hybrid. Even though I found Duran's revelations interesting I actually didn't like the idea of Hybrid back then leading into a sequel largely because it potentially narrowed the conflict to an "all of us vs them" scenario rather than the initial appeal of the "it's all just us fighting each other" scenario that it was. Funnily enough, I was one of the very few who wasn't even imagining or wanting a sequel back then either.

Well, honestly, I think all of us imagined a better sequel in our heads. While I think you have a lot of interesting ideas, I don't like your idea for the Overmind, as this basically annihilates the value of Tassadar's sacrifice. On the other hand, it makes more sense for Kerrigan to feel threatened by other Zerg, rather than hybrids. Unless she has some sort of inkling about Duran.


The problem with Starcraft is that the series started only because the Zerg wanted to conquer the universe and needed humanity to do it, and the Protoss responded by glassing human worlds. The three races have no reason to ever interact without that setup. Absent a recreation of the plot of SC1, there is nowhere for SC3 to go.

Not quite true. There's potential for Terran-centered and non-RTS games. And, assuming SC2 gets thrown in the garbage, a proper SC1 sequel.

[ragnarok]

I don't know. But there's a lot of talk about there being more to all the characters in HotS that were cut or just weren't developed to the fullest extent.



You can blame that on Blizzard being too damn lazy to put any effort in

[Turalyon]

Really? Having a logical reason is too convenient?

Yes, convenient. If we are to follow on from before and make Sc3 with the direction of a lost cerebrate coming to the fore, it's just as bad as having the Overmind coming back again (like it did in BW), especially when it was said that all cerebrates are dead now. And yes, while I appreciate the irony of Sc2 introducing such huge retcons and setting up a precedent that something like introducing the cerebrates again should be "no big deal", I'm just beyond caring at this point. It's all just artifice for the sake of continuation.


I don't like your idea for the Overmind, as this basically annihilates the value of Tassadar's sacrifice.

Yeah, in retrospect, I somewhat agree with you too now. The Overmind coming back so easily in BW (even though it doesn't come back fully) attests to not only devaluing Tassadar's sacrifice, but the consequence/impact of the Overminds death as well. It's partly why the Zerg have devolved into being more as a plot device than one of three major races with a unique voice.

That idea I gave came from way, way back ago before BW was even released where I was more inclined to fanon and at the height of my Zerg fandom. I didn't think at the time it would devalue Tassadar's sacrifice (or rather the consequence of his act), because the local Zerg contingent would still be forced to start evolving and develop along a different path (with or without Kerrigan being in the mix). This development would've been my preferred alternate concept for "primal" Zerg than the one we got in HotS.


On the other hand, it makes more sense for Kerrigan to feel threatened by other Zerg, rather than hybrids.

It's not just the generic horror about the Zerg that Kerrigan is threatened by. Her biggest fear is being controlled again. Of all the things she says in BW, I believe this is one of the only things she is ever actually honest about. It governs her revenge against Mengsk and informs all her actions in BW. Her malice toward the Protoss is because they too want to "control" her in some aspect (even if it's just in the more blunt form of killing her), and she knows this. She's done being the victim of abuse and the plaything of others, it's her turn now! (As you can probably tell, I actually liked BW Kerrigan's character back in the day, too)

[Mislagnissa]

Not quite true. There's potential for Terran-centered and non-RTS games.Starcraft was about the conflict between the Terrans, Protoss and Zerg. Now you're suggesting game concepts which might as well be a separate IP. We never even got a decent RTS campaign beyond Rebel Yell, which was the highest point of the entire series.


And, assuming SC2 gets thrown in the garbage, a proper SC1 sequel.There are two problems with that.

Firstly, any sequels will most likely be DLC for SC2 and WoL is going free to play. New players will be introduced that way. Introducing a reboot as a paid DLC would undoubtedly confuse them much like the countless superhero franchise reboots in the last decade. Not an impassable barrier, but it would need to be handled with care.

Secondly, SC1 is hardly a solid foundation for a sequel and nostalgia goggles do not fix that. The plots of Episodes 2 and 3 are poorly written compared to Episode 1, and deserve to be rewritten to better showcase the narrative potential of the Zerg and Protoss as protagonists in their own right rather than playing second fiddle to Raynor and Kerry. The plot of Brood War is full of plot holes and retcons (Shakuras, UED, Duran, etc), and it destroys the hierarchies and power bases of the three factions to allow Kerry to take over the sector. A logical sequel to BW would be Kerry fighting Duran, while everybody else is ignored because they have no military, and regardless of who wins it would be a bad end for everyone else.

Something like the shared universe outline "Enumerate" (links: original forum thread (https://us.battle.net/forums/en/sc2/topic/17606004934), timeline (http://fav.me/d8ve3sv), full document (http://fav.me/d8svb5e)) provides a stable foundation while remaining true to the original premise. Long story short, it supposes Kerry died on Tarsonis and keeps the Zerg as the main antagonists rather than introducing new villains willy-nilly.

[Nissa]

Yes, convenient. If we are to follow on from before and make Sc3 with the direction of a lost cerebrate coming to the fore, it's just as bad as having the Overmind coming back again (like it did in BW), especially when it was said that all cerebrates are dead now. And yes, while I appreciate the irony of Sc2 introducing such huge retcons and setting up a precedent that something like introducing the cerebrates again should be "no big deal", I'm just beyond caring at this point. It's all just artifice for the sake of continuation.

Well, bear in mind when I talk about the reintroduction of cerebrates, I'm assuming a sequel written by people who care. And no, I still think you're wrong about it being convenient. It is pure logic that not all of the Zerg would be in the K Sector, and some might be far enough away to take a significant amount of time to arrive, as well as take more time to quietly observe before acting. This would enable the Zerg to have more agency, as a true, pure-blooded Zerg could begin to make rational, simple decisions that are in the Zerg's best interest. Kerrigan/UED/loser Amon were all trying to control the Zerg for their own purposes, and having a cerebrate return would cut away alternate motivations.

Then again, I'm generally assuming that SC2 is not canon. If SC2 is canon, then Starcraft is dead, no matter what they do. Your response to my use of cerebrates appears to take this fact to heart.



Yeah, in retrospect, I somewhat agree with you too now. The Overmind coming back so easily in BW (even though it doesn't come back fully) attests to not only devaluing Tassadar's sacrifice, but the consequence/impact of the Overminds death as well. It's partly why the Zerg have devolved into being more as a plot device than one of three major races with a unique voice.

That idea I gave came from way, way back ago before BW was even released where I was more inclined to fanon and at the height of my Zerg fandom. I didn't think at the time it would devalue Tassadar's sacrifice (or rather the consequence of his act), because the local Zerg contingent would still be forced to start evolving and develop along a different path (with or without Kerrigan being in the mix). This development would've been my preferred alternate concept for "primal" Zerg than the one we got in HotS.

I actually don't mind the new Overmind too much, as the cerebrates trying to form another one makes sense, as well as the conflict it creates for Kerrigan. It's still a bit of a cheat, but it's logical enough to work. Dude, a cerebrate's return would indeed fix the unique voice problem you're complaining about.


It's not just the generic horror about the Zerg that Kerrigan is threatened by. Her biggest fear is being controlled again. Of all the things she says in BW, I believe this is one of the only things she is ever actually honest about. It governs her revenge against Mengsk and informs all her actions in BW. Her malice toward the Protoss is because they too want to "control" her in some aspect (even if it's just in the more blunt form of killing her), and she knows this. She's done being the victim of abuse and the plaything of others, it's her turn now! (As you can probably tell, I actually liked BW Kerrigan's character back in the day, too)

I feel that in terms of personality, Kerrigan was consistent through SC-BW. Everything she did makes sense from her standpoint. Honestly, her desire for more control over her life is really relatable and powerful. It made her a better villain.


Magmags, you are obsessed with killing off Kerri on Tarsonis. This messes up the SC1 storyline, because she's the plot manifestation of the Zerg's original intent: infest human psychics to learn how to get Protoss. She's the reason why Raynor/Tassadar/Duke all came to Char, so getting rid of her would rob most of the Zerg missions of meaning. Simply killing Kerrigan off is a bad idea.

[Mislagnissa]

I actually don't mind the new Overmind too much, as the cerebrates trying to form another one makes sense, as well as the conflict it creates for Kerrigan. It's still a bit of a cheat, but it's logical enough to work. Dude, a cerebrate's return would indeed fix the unique voice problem you're complaining about.The Overmind being resurrected by the merging of cerebrates is a retcon, and one which is directly responsible for the Zerg's eventual decay into mediocrity. Originally the Overmind was a bodiless entity, and the plot demanded it assume physical form because otherwise there would be no way to kill it and the Zerg would win. Since the Overmind (and its cerebrates) is a function of the Zerg's telepathy and genome, like the Khala is for the Protoss, then it is physically impossible to kill it because it is not actually a living creature. You can certainly cause severe brain damage to the Swarms through a powerful psychic attack, such as assaulting a hive mind locus with void magic, but this injury will eventually regenerate unless you exterminate all Zerg in the universe.

That's more logical than anything else I've seen and it conveniently justifies a continuous state of war to churn out sequels.


Magmags, you are obsessed with killing off Kerri on Tarsonis. This messes up the SC1 storyline, because she's the plot manifestation of the Zerg's original intent: infest human psychics to learn how to get Protoss. She's the reason why Raynor/Tassadar/Duke all came to Char, so getting rid of her would rob most of the Zerg missions of meaning. Simply killing Kerrigan off is a bad idea.It does not mess up the story line. The game portrayal is at complete odds with the manual. Kerry is magically the only psychic out of many billions of humans to be infested (don't give me crap about the retcons justifying this after the fact). She is never cloned into an army as is customary for every Zerg breed.

Kerry is a plot device who only serves three purposes that affect the narrative: she produces psychic dreams that attract the dark templar earlier than they would otherwise arrive (the DT were already aware of Zerg through the deep space probes, and warbands began investigating K-sec to test their mettle), she acts as a super soldier to fight the Protoss (hence easily replaceable by an army of Zerg clones derived from Terran gene stock), and she produces psychic storms (also easily replaceable by a Terran-derived Zerg monstrosity). The inclusion of Raynor and Duke has no impact on the plot, and their characters are better served by keeping them in Dominion space fighting Mengsk's authority and the infestors a la WoL, respectively.

The original manual said that <1% of humans are psychic, so the Zerg have millions of victims to capture from across the sector (assuming a total population in the billions). Using those psychics, the Zerg have enough genetic diversity to build an army of psychic doom. The Zerg will certainly leave some broods behind to exterminate the survivors (manual quote: "The Zerg were innately selective as to which species they consumed, ensuring that at every stage of their development they were at the top of the proverbial food chain. Any race that the Zerg came across that was deemed unworthy of assimilation was eradicated to further purify the strains."), which justifies the Terrans remaining involved in the conflict (though an alliance with the Protoss is unlikely until much later in the conflict, given that the Protoss glassed inhabited planets, are generally racist and live fairly far away).

Read the links in my signature, it elaborates on all this.

[Turalyon]

And no, I still think you're wrong about it being convenient. It is pure logic that not all of the Zerg would be in the K Sector, and some might be far enough away to take a significant amount of time to arrive, as well as take more time to quietly observe before acting. This would enable the Zerg to have more agency, as a true, pure-blooded Zerg could begin to make rational, simple decisions that are in the Zerg's best interest. Kerrigan/UED/loser Amon were all trying to control the Zerg for their own purposes, and having a cerebrate return would cut away alternate motivations.

Hmmmm... Using this train of logic would actually justify my original, long-ago fanon of the Overmind still being alive/not actually being killed by Tassadar. I already agreed that bringing back the Overmind in any way was somewhats spurious in the same vein that bringing back the cerebrates would also be spurious, now you're backflipping by only specifying it's ok for the cerebrates but not the Overmind. :confused:


I actually don't mind the new Overmind too much, as the cerebrates trying to form another one makes sense, as well as the conflict it creates for Kerrigan. It's still a bit of a cheat, but it's logical enough to work. Dude, a cerebrate's return would indeed fix the unique voice problem you're complaining about.

I agree with Misla's response to this. The way the the Overmind is brought back in the BW narrative is what, in part, renders the whole race into a plot device (ie: something to be fought over and used) rather than a distinct third race.


Magmags, you are obsessed with killing off Kerri on Tarsonis. This messes up the SC1 storyline, because she's the plot manifestation of the Zerg's original intent: infest human psychics to learn how to get Protoss. She's the reason why Raynor/Tassadar/Duke all came to Char, so getting rid of her would rob most of the Zerg missions of meaning. Simply killing Kerrigan off is a bad idea.


It does not mess up the story line. The game portrayal is at complete odds with the manual. Kerry is magically the only psychic out of many billions of humans to be infested (don't give me crap about the retcons justifying this after the fact). She is never cloned into an army as is customary for every Zerg breed.

I'm sorry, but Nissa's argument is objectively more solid than yours. Kerrigan was not the exact predestined determinant the Overmind was looking for, but she was the one it had happened to find at a moment of opportunity.


Kerry is a plot device who only serves three purposes that affect the narrative

No. The idea of "the determinant" is the plot device, not Kerrigan specifically. She just happens to be the determinant, as deemed by the Overmind.


The original manual said that <1% of humans are psychic, so the Zerg have millions of victims to capture from across the sector (assuming a total population in the billions).

This is also wrong since the Terran population being in the billions is a retcon in Sc2. That it's rare and difficult to find is the reason why the Zerg haven't captured a human psionic before the events of Sc1 started because otherwise we would've seen evidence of it and that the Zerg wouldn't be bothered with the Terrans nor be attracted to the Psi emitters. If it did find a Terran psionic before the events of Sc1 started proper, then the Sc1 story we got wouldn't have played out as it did. It was only via sheer luck and coincidence (watsonian explanation)/ contrived coincidence (Doylist explanation) that it found Kerrigan when it did. Indeed, if it was so easy to find a Terran with psionics and assimilate them, it would not even be necessary to even include the Terrans or their perspectives in the main campaign at all.

[Nissa]

Hmmmm... Using this train of logic would actually justify my original, long-ago fanon of the Overmind still being alive/not actually being killed by Tassadar. I already agreed that bringing back the Overmind in any way was somewhats purious in the same vein that bringing back the cerebrates would also be spurious, now you're backflipping by only specifying it's ok for the cerebrates but not the Overmind. :confused:

I think you're confused because you're misinterpreting. ;)

No, there's no backflipping. I disagree with your original use of the Overmind simply because I don't think that was the way the Overmind was truly portrayed in the games. Yes, the way they did it had problems, but the cerebrates merging together to create a new Overmind makes complete sense, from there point of view. The real issue concerning your complaint is that the UED tried to use the Overmind for its own purposes, creating the whole no-agency thing. I'm saying that the cerebrate part makes sense (despite never being properly shown). The UED part, well, that's a separate issue.

To be fair, that doesn't bother me much either, because in a way the Zerg have always been that kind of race, only with the Overmind at the head. The only difference is that the Overmind fought for the Zerg, while everyone else fought for themselves. Which is another reason why I'd like a cerebrate to come back. That way he can confront Kerrigan for taking the Swarm into a direction it was never intended.


Originally the Overmind was a bodiless entity,...

Citation needed. The Overmind did use the term "made manifest" in relation to using the Khaydarin crystals, but we have no idea how literally this is meant, given how flowery the Overmind's language is. And also given that he has the image of a giant eyeball suspended by fleshy bits to some sort of outer encasing. Likewise, the merging of the cerebrates still doesn't bother me even then, because they should still have been able to possibly remove the Khaydarin crystals and use them to "manifest" the Overmind, if they needed to.

My real complaint over time is that the Khaydarin crystals were never defined. We don't know what they do or why they were necessary.

[Turalyon]

I disagree with your original use of the Overmind simply because I don't think that was the way the Overmind was truly portrayed in the games. Yes, the way they did it had problems, but the cerebrates merging together to create a new Overmind makes complete sense, from there point of view.

Citation needed. The Overmind did use the term "made manifest" in relation to using the Khaydarin crystals, but we have no idea how literally this is meant, given how flowery the Overmind's language is.

Not quite true. The character entry for the Overmind in the manual specifically states it as a "bodiless entity". As such, it is reasonable to think the Overmind has no form to speak of until it distinctly decides to make itself manifest at the end of the campaign. This gives the impression that the Overmind isn't necessarily tied down to a physical form nor that it is necessary for it to rely on a physical form in order to exist. I know it's maybe easier for the layman audience members peace of mind to think of things in the physical in order to make sense of it, but the Overmind is supposed to be an unconventional, high-mind, sci-fi concept afterall.


The real issue concerning your complaint is that the UED tried to use the Overmind for its own purposes, creating the whole no-agency thing. I'm saying that the cerebrate part makes sense (despite never being properly shown). The UED part, well, that's a separate issue.

No, the UED is indeed a separate but compounding issue, but I'm in no way negatively biased against the UED (I actually like them as a concept - I actually like a lot of the ideas that come from the Sc universe, it's just that I rail more against the execution, which is becoming more obvious and appallingly bad) in this specific regard. It goes back to you saying that the Overmind coming back at all devalues Tassadar's sacrifice but it goes beyond that. It kind of potentially devalues the consequence and death of the Overmind as well if it were to comeback in any way. That's why I partially agreed with you about why I think of my very early fanon as being a bit more fanciful than I initially thought it'd be.

The only way the Overmind can comeback without devaluing Tassdar's sacrifice or the inherent consequence of the Overminds death, is to have some consequence of the Overminds death on the K-sector Zerg to linger. This could be in the form of them being forced to evolve on their own and thrive without a hivemind. More importantly, this evolution should also prevent them from being enthralled by the Overmind coming back, too, (U]if[/U] they indeed decided on bringing it back. That way, the return of the Overmind isn't used merely as plot device (as it plainly is in BW).

Having "some consequence linger" is actually one of the biggest recurring issues in Starcraft in general. FanaticTemplar once said something about this when he railed against the Zerg being so OP in BW because Sc1 ended with victory for the Protoss and that its ending was clear that an even-handed status quo amongst the races was achieved. I agreed with him mostly there, too, but I was a bit more forgiving than he because the initial idea and consequence of the Zerg still being a threat of a kind despite losing the Overmind was retained - a consequence that lingered - despite it spiralling to the Zerg being actually OP later on within BW. Then we had the UED in BW. We had some massive discussions about that, too... and where we sort of had a role reversal. He felt the UED was so completely pointless by their coming and going since all impact they had was cancelled out in the end. Most of this went into our discussions of Mengsk's position and eventual setup in Sc2. He claimed that Mengsk was deemed untouchable and already prone to miraculous recovery in BW so that, in turn, justifies the position we see him in Sc2. I took the other route of considering the UED should have had a "consequence that lingered" in that Mengsk should remain defeated and that the Terran landscape should've changed again by the time Sc2 because Mengsk was only just a man and not one with infinite improbable comebacks up his sleeve. That it didn't follow through on this in Sc2 and how this probably setup this unhealthy precedent for "plot-armoured characters until a dramatic moment was required" is kinda sad.


Which is another reason why I'd like a cerebrate to come back. That way he can confront Kerrigan for taking the Swarm into a direction it was never intended.

I don't have an issue with this as a concept, merely in its positioning and timing of it happening. It would've been perfect around the time of BW/as an alternate take on BW, but it would be a very poor use of this were it to come as part of Sc3 because it would seem quite contrived given all that we've been through already. It's also the reason why I have reservations about Sc3 going back and relying on nostalgia and/or going back to UED as the main antagonist (given that whilst the concept of them is quite rad and their characters were memorable, their implementation in the narrative left a lot to be desired the first time around). It all just seems too pat and pandering now. Sc2, in terms of story, was always going to be a sequel for the sake of sequel and it's said it turned actually turned out to be nothing more than that. If Sc3 does see the light day, I'm predicting that in terms of its story, it's just going to be a sequel for the sake of a "proper" sequel. Ugh, sequelitis is real people.

[ragnarok]

Which is another reason why I'd like a cerebrate to come back. That way he can confront Kerrigan for taking the Swarm into a direction it was never intended.


Nissa, the problem here is you're not willing to accept change. You're still going with the whole "Once a monster, ALWAYS a monster." In that regard this is why I was fine with the SC Evolution book, because it at least tried to portray the swarm in a different light.

After all, back in SC1 the Protoss too were portrayed as homicidal monsters given their actions in burning terran worlds just to kill the zerg. Even Raynor's relationship with Tassadar started off badly. But Raynor chose to believe there was more to the Protoss than what met the eye. In a way this was what Valerian was trying to explain to Artanis in the Evolution book: if people can accept the Firstborn aren't what they once thought, why can't the same hold true for the Zerg?

You're acting like what was genetically embedded into them can NEVER change. If we follow that logic, humanity never should have evolved beyond the barbarian age, since that was embedded into us so long ago.

[Nissa]

Nissa, the problem here is you're not willing to accept change. You're still going with the whole "Once a monster, ALWAYS a monster." In that regard this is why I was fine with the SC Evolution book, because it at least tried to portray the swarm in a different light.

Could someone explain to me what this means/has to do with anything?


Tura, I won't disagree with you about the manual (mainly because I can't find what I did with my manual pdf), but I think the Overmind's "bodiless" nature, if this is indeed what it says in the manual, is kind of a contradiction with the games. The game itself doesn't make that explicitly clear, and indeed seems to imply that the Overmind has a body.

In any case, I don't see "timing" as an issue. I mean, I would if I considered SC2 canon, but even then not by much. I'm far more concerned with fixing the story than I am with any sense of what goes when. As far as I'm concerned, one can replay the original game, and if I create a sequel (hypothetically speaking) they can play it immediately afterwards and the sense of story flow isn't interrupted, despite the fact that my hypothetical sequel was made years later.

In other words, I have no problem with a cerebrate arriving after BW. It's perfectly fine. Kerrigan has been wrecking havoc with the swarm, the new Overmind was killed, many other cerebrates were killed, and the one that Kerrigan lets live is her slave. This would be the point of departure for an escaping cerebrate, not his arrival. Likewise, given that the Swarm has been exploring deep space for a long time, it would could potentially take years for an outside cerebrate to return, and even if he did arrive in time for BW, he might sit to the side and watch for a bit, to see how best to act.

There's no timing issues, so long as SC2 is out of the picture.

[Mislagnissa]

Hmmmm... Using this train of logic would actually justify my original, long-ago fanon of the Overmind still being alive/not actually being killed by Tassadar. I already agreed that bringing back the Overmind in any way was somewhats spurious in the same vein that bringing back the cerebrates would also be spurious, now you're backflipping by only specifying it's ok for the cerebrates but not the Overmind. :confused:



I agree with Misla's response to this. The way the the Overmind is brought back in the BW narrative is what, in part, renders the whole race into a plot device (ie: something to be fought over and used) rather than a distinct third race.





I'm sorry, but Nissa's argument is objectively more solid than yours. Kerrigan was not the exact predestined determinant the Overmind was looking for, but she was the one it had happened to find at a moment of opportunity.



No. The idea of "the determinant" is the plot device, not Kerrigan specifically. She just happens to be the determinant, as deemed by the Overmind.



This is also wrong since the Terran population being in the billions is a retcon in Sc2. That it's rare and difficult to find is the reason why the Zerg haven't captured a human psionic before the events of Sc1 started because otherwise we would've seen evidence of it and that the Zerg wouldn't be bothered with the Terrans nor be attracted to the Psi emitters. If it did find a Terran psionic before the events of Sc1 started proper, then the Sc1 story we got wouldn't have played out as it did. It was only via sheer luck and coincidence (watsonian explanation)/ contrived coincidence (Doylist explanation) that it found Kerrigan when it did. Indeed, if it was so easy to find a Terran with psionics and assimilate them, it would not even be necessary to even include the Terrans or their perspectives in the main campaign at all.
The Terrans stand no chance in a prolonged conflict without a massive population. Skim the links in my signature, they address your complaints. I don't have the time to copypaste everything here.


Nissa, the problem here is you're not willing to accept change. You're still going with the whole "Once a monster, ALWAYS a monster." In that regard this is why I was fine with the SC Evolution book, because it at least tried to portray the swarm in a different light.

After all, back in SC1 the Protoss too were portrayed as homicidal monsters given their actions in burning terran worlds just to kill the zerg. Even Raynor's relationship with Tassadar started off badly. But Raynor chose to believe there was more to the Protoss than what met the eye. In a way this was what Valerian was trying to explain to Artanis in the Evolution book: if people can accept the Firstborn aren't what they once thought, why can't the same hold true for the Zerg?

You're acting like what was genetically embedded into them can NEVER change. If we follow that logic, humanity never should have evolved beyond the barbarian age, since that was embedded into us so long ago.The Zerg are boring without their horrifyingly alien quest for universal conquest and incongruous sophisticated King James Bible/Shakespeare style of speech. The Zerg spent millions of years engineering themselves to become the ultimate lifeforms, to become better killing machines. They are unable to coexist with other life on a cellular level without assimilating it. Their hive clusters are full of deadly pathogens that regulate their physiology while killing anything not Zerg. The primary producer and decomposer of their ecosystem is a voracious colony of grey goo that eats planets. The vast majority of their population is of animal intelligence and produce greater intelligences by networking their minds. They are completely worthless for anything less than universal conquest. What do you expect them to do without that? Bake cookies? Write poetry? Play smartphone games? Perform on broadway?

The Protoss example is not remotely comparable, because the Protoss have internal factions who disagreed over whether the genocide was necessary and did not undergo the narrative decay the Zerg did. The genocide was totally necessary and would have stopped the Zerg, but the Templar refused due to their foolish idealistic compassion, which adds moral complexity to the story. In fact, the Zerg seeing humanity as a threat deserving genocide makes the Templar more justified in their actions without invalidating the Judicator's complaints. It's certainly better than the absurd "hard man making hard decisions" meme on spacebattles (the hero of a badly written military fiction commits genocide for trivial reasons).

[Gradius]

^— hit the nail on the head.

[ragnarok]

The Zerg are boring without their horrifyingly alien quest for universal conquest and incongruous sophisticated King James Bible/Shakespeare style of speech. The Zerg spent millions of years engineering themselves to become the ultimate lifeforms, to become better killing machines. They are unable to coexist with other life on a cellular level without assimilating it. Their hive clusters are full of deadly pathogens that regulate their physiology while killing anything not Zerg. The primary producer and decomposer of their ecosystem is a voracious colony of grey goo that eats planets. The vast majority of their population is of animal intelligence and produce greater intelligences by networking their minds. They are completely worthless for anything less than universal conquest. What do you expect them to do without that? Bake cookies? Write poetry? Play smartphone games? Perform on broadway?

The Protoss example is not remotely comparable, because the Protoss have internal factions who disagreed over whether the genocide was necessary and did not undergo the narrative decay the Zerg did. The genocide was totally necessary and would have stopped the Zerg, but the Templar refused due to their foolish idealistic compassion, which adds moral complexity to the story. In fact, the Zerg seeing humanity as a threat deserving genocide makes the Templar more justified in their actions without invalidating the Judicator's complaints. It's certainly better than the absurd "hard man making hard decisions" meme on spacebattles (the hero of a badly written military fiction commits genocide for trivial reasons).

And I keep telling you that you don't know if that's really the case even using the SC1 lore. Zerus had too harsh an environment for the Zerg parasites to survive very long prior to the arrival of the Xel'Naga. You simply don't know WHAT they would have done had the Xel'Naga not come along. You could argue that because the Xel'Naga helped them survive and then they just evolved on their own for killing, it doesn't prove (though it heavily implies) they would have done the same thing had the Xel'Naga never arrived.

Now, using your argument for their actions of millions of years engineering themselves for perfection, it wouldn't change the possibility they could become something else. And it doesn't have to be what SC2 tried to do to make them civilized people, but simply something more than just mere killing machines.


^— hit the nail on the head.

Try coming up with something better, Gradius

[Mislagnissa]

And I keep telling you that you don't know if that's really the case even using the SC1 lore. Zerus had too harsh an environment for the Zerg parasites to survive very long prior to the arrival of the Xel'Naga. You simply don't know WHAT they would have done had the Xel'Naga not come along. You could argue that because the Xel'Naga helped them survive and then they just evolved on their own for killing, it doesn't prove (though it heavily implies) they would have done the same thing had the Xel'Naga never arrived.

Now, using your argument for their actions of millions of years engineering themselves for perfection, it wouldn't change the possibility they could become something else. And it doesn't have to be what SC2 tried to do to make them civilized people, but simply something more than just mere killing machines.



Try coming up with something better, Gradius

The Zerg probably never would have developed intelligence without the Xel'naga's intervention. They probably would have gone extinct or remained soil-burrowing nematodes until their planet was no longer inhabitable. Even if they did somehow develop intelligence without xel'naga intervention, their biology would still be so fundamentally different from humans that they would not develop civilization along remotely the same lines. Humans and Protoss underwent very similar evolutionary pressures resulting in very similar anatomy and psychology, sufficient for them to interact without falling prey to nightmare scenarios like forcing each other to each children, communicating through sex (http://lesswrong.com/lw/y4/three_worlds_collide_08/), lacking consciousness entirely (https://www.tor.com/2010/12/13/the-consciousness-glitch-peter-wattss-blindsight/), considering themselves the only conscious existence (http://www.drabblecast.org/2013/12/06/drabblecast-305-testimony-emergency-session-naval-cephalopod-command/), or any of the countless other freakish scenarios that occur in harder science fiction. Indeed, the Zerg are a textbook example of a post-singularity civilization typical of really hard scifi, like the Blight (http://www.sfreviews.net/vvinge_fire_upon_the_deep.html), the WAU (https://www.theverge.com/2015/7/16/8976899/soma-frictional-horror-game-preview), the City (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blame!), SCORN (https://scorn-game.com/), or even a simple paperclip maximizer (https://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Paperclip_maximizer). Their alien nature, combined with their loose basis in harder scifi (albeit meaty), is what makes them so interesting to me and probably others.

You have yet to provide any counterexamples of what else the Zerg could be. If you really believe what you say is true, then please do. I doubt anyone can come up with anything as interesting as a fleshy post-singularity civilization, but you're certainly welcome to try.

[ragnarok]

The Zerg probably never would have developed intelligence without the Xel'naga's intervention. They probably would have gone extinct or remained soil-burrowing nematodes until their planet was no longer inhabitable. Even if they did somehow develop intelligence without xel'naga intervention, their biology would still be so fundamentally different from humans that they would not develop civilization along remotely the same lines. Humans and Protoss underwent very similar evolutionary pressures resulting in very similar anatomy and psychology, sufficient for them to interact without falling prey to nightmare scenarios like forcing each other to each children, communicating through sex (http://lesswrong.com/lw/y4/three_worlds_collide_08/), lacking consciousness entirely (https://www.tor.com/2010/12/13/the-consciousness-glitch-peter-wattss-blindsight/), considering themselves the only conscious existence (http://www.drabblecast.org/2013/12/06/drabblecast-305-testimony-emergency-session-naval-cephalopod-command/), or any of the countless other freakish scenarios that occur in harder science fiction. Indeed, the Zerg are a textbook example of a post-singularity civilization typical of really hard scifi, like the Blight (http://www.sfreviews.net/vvinge_fire_upon_the_deep.html), the WAU (https://www.theverge.com/2015/7/16/8976899/soma-frictional-horror-game-preview), the City (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blame!), SCORN (https://scorn-game.com/), or even a simple paperclip maximizer (https://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Paperclip_maximizer). Their alien nature, combined with their loose basis in harder scifi (albeit meaty), is what makes them so interesting to me and probably others.

You have yet to provide any counterexamples of what else the Zerg could be. If you really believe what you say is true, then please do. I doubt anyone can come up with anything as interesting as a fleshy post-singularity civilization, but you're certainly welcome to try.

Then if we follow that, you might as well be comparing it to the animals in our world and what would have happened to them if humanity never interfered, tried to domesticate or trained them, etc. I believe if the Xel'Naga never came they would have gone extinct. Now, let's pretend the Xel'Naga allowed them to survive, but never created the Overmind. During the initial stages they'd probably just end up eating themselves into near extinction or something like that. Once there's too few left, I can see them going along the same path as what the Overmind did for the whole assimilation process, but I believe that if they left Zerus and there was NO Overmind to direct them, then once they encounter the terrans and Protoss eventually they'd have to learn and evolve their mentality to something beyond just killing them all. I'm not quite sure what that could be (I'd imagine the initial stages would be little more than to deceive them), but perhaps if they conclude assimilating the terrans/Protoss couldn't be done, they may interact with them on a non-lethal level.

You're making it sound like as savage animals, they'd never learn.

[Turalyon]

Could someone explain to me what this means/has to do with anything?

Welcome to Rag-ness!


Tura, I won't disagree with you about the manual (mainly because I can't find what I did with my manual pdf), but I think the Overmind's "bodiless" nature, if this is indeed what it says in the manual, is kind of a contradiction with the games. The game itself doesn't make that explicitly clear, and indeed seems to imply that the Overmind has a body.

You think the Overmind has a body just because it's represented by a portrait of an eyeball and that it deigns to speak? I think that's more to the limitation/difficulty of trying to represent the concept of a hivemind (without actually being in one) than anything else. A human mind can never really contemplate anything truly alien, unless it's rendered into something less alien /we can more easily understand.

That the Overmind has an actual body is really somewhat of a narrative cheat so that the story can end/ have its main antagonist be defeatable. This is more "glaring" and "wrong" to some because the story is vague about why the Overmind needs to manifest itself in the first place. I find that I vacillate about whether the Overmind having/manifesting a body was a "good" or "bad" thing depending on the context.


In any case, I don't see "timing" as an issue. I mean, I would if I considered SC2 canon, but even then not by much. I'm far more concerned with fixing the story than I am with any sense of what goes when. As far as I'm concerned, one can replay the original game, and if I create a sequel (hypothetically speaking) they can play it immediately afterwards and the sense of story flow isn't interrupted, despite the fact that my hypothetical sequel was made years later.

I get where you're coming from but part of me sees your reasoning about fixing the story as being no different as the writers who believed they were fixing some of the inconsistencies/vagueness in Sc1 when they made Sc2. Also, it's not enough justification to limit yourself to "just a hidden cerebrate arriving" because this reasoning can also make my Overminds return fanon just as reasonable option to yours. It doesn't matter whether it's the Overmind, a cerebrate or a magic stick that has Zerg control powers - it all still whiffs of artifice.

While I get your position of forgetting Sc2 altogether - we can't do that because Sc2 exists like it or not. Any Sc3/sequel hereafter will have to deal with it whether that mean continue using all or some of it or even retconning it entirely. It's not a meaningful exercise either way because the story and its direction is now governed, more than ever, by Doylist/out-of-universe reasons than Watsonian/in-universe reasons.


The Terrans stand no chance in a prolonged conflict without a massive population.

I know and that's how they were represented in Sc1. The scale was that small initially and though you may not like it, that was the setup.

The Terrans were always weak and they were left crushed (9 of 13 worlds were destroyed) due to both in-fighting and destruction by aliens. The UED, for all the issues in how they were introduced and implemented, were an opportunity to give the Terrans a "shot in the arm" in terms of making the Terran presence a little more even-handed with the other two races. But alas, it was not to be that either...


You're making it sound like as savage animals, they'd never learn.

But the Zerg are savage animals... by necessity and to pursue their goals. And they do learn - it's the basis in the quest for their ideal of perfection.

[Mislagnissa]

Then if we follow that, you might as well be comparing it to the animals in our world and what would have happened to them if humanity never interfered, tried to domesticate or trained them, etc. I believe if the Xel'Naga never came they would have gone extinct. Now, let's pretend the Xel'Naga allowed them to survive, but never created the Overmind. During the initial stages they'd probably just end up eating themselves into near extinction or something like that. Once there's too few left, I can see them going along the same path as what the Overmind did for the whole assimilation process, but I believe that if they left Zerus and there was NO Overmind to direct them, then once they encounter the terrans and Protoss eventually they'd have to learn and evolve their mentality to something beyond just killing them all. I'm not quite sure what that could be (I'd imagine the initial stages would be little more than to deceive them), but perhaps if they conclude assimilating the terrans/Protoss couldn't be done, they may interact with them on a non-lethal level.You don't like their original portrayal, but you can't actually think of anything to replace it? I can't say I'm surprised (I can't do that either), but I really expected more from you given how much you argue in favor of your case.

Please give up and admit the Zerg suck without the Overmind. You will feel so much better if you do and will be able to focus your mental energy on much more productive pursuits, like making up new broods that serve the Overmind in some super-specific way like "spawn more warriors," "hunt new species," or "harvest more minerals". I would seriously love to see an entire campaign centered around the exploits and adventures of a Zerg mining brood.


You're making it sound like as savage animals, they'd never learn.I just gave a half-dozen examples of super-advanced HUMAN civilizations with the universe assimilation goal. For King James' sake, the Zerg speak like Shakespearean actors! You can't get less savage than that.


I know and that's how they were represented in Sc1. The scale was that small initially and though you may not like it, that was the setup.

The Terrans were always weak and they were left crushed (9 of 13 worlds were destroyed) due to both in-fighting and destruction by aliens. The UED, for all the issues in how they were introduced and implemented, were an opportunity to give the Terrans a "shot in the arm" in terms of making the Terran presence a little more even-handed with the other two races. But alas, it was not to be that either...Making the Terrans able to fight back to begin with is logically equivalent to adding the UED later, with the added bonus of not retconning in a silly "Earth was secretly spying on them the whole time!" The original premise was that K-sec was utterly cut off from Earth. Like so many other things, sequelitis ruined that too.

[Turalyon]

Making the Terrans able to fight back to begin with is logically equivalent to adding the UED later.

Not quite. The thing is, the Terrans were never able to fight back in any meaningful or long-term way against either of the other two. Both the manual and the game are consistent in this portrayal of the Terrans. Changing that would be the same as saying the Zerg we see in Sc1 are not the real Zerg (like Sc2 does).

The idea of the UED or "Earth" on a very broad, non-specific level being used as a means to bolster the strength of the Terrans is not inherently bad because it's really the only way to give the Terrans a greater presence and standing against the other two races without having to retcon what was established (that the K-sector Terrans were always weak relative to the other two races) in both manual and game. The way Earth/UED was used in BW was squandered because they were only used solely in an antagonist role and were completely done away with in the end, leaving no consequence of their passing.

[Mislagnissa]

Not quite. The thing is, the Terrans were never able to fight back in any meaningful or long-term way against either of the other two. Both the manual and the game are consistent in this portrayal of the Terrans. Changing that would be the same as saying the Zerg we see in Sc1 are not the real Zerg (like Sc2 does).

The idea of the UED or "Earth" on a very broad, non-specific level being used as a means to bolster the strength of the Terrans is not inherently bad because it's really the only way to give the Terrans a greater presence and standing against the other two races without having to retcon what was established (that the K-sector Terrans were always weak relative to the other two races) in both manual and game. The way Earth/UED was used in BW was squandered because they were only used solely in an antagonist role and were completely done away with in the end, leaving no consequence of their passing.

I am sure there are any number of ways to write the story such that they have a fighting chance. Reduce the damage caused by the initial invasion, keep the remaining extermination forces fairly small and slow paced, developing weapons based on studies of Zerg biology, using psychic warfare to turn the Zerg against one another, etc.

The Terrans have things like nanofabricators and other technology that is far more advanced than today's and would render much of their society unrecognizable. They are all but stated to live in a cyberpunk dystopia. Mass producing armies of clones, robots, cyborgs, etc is something I would logically expect them to do.

Otherwise, there's no reason to include them in the first place if they don't meaningfully contribute to the plot. To tell a story that is compelling, logically consistent, frugal, and longer than two seconds, we need to trample over your complaints about canon. Sorry! :(

[ragnarok]

You don't like their original portrayal, but you can't actually think of anything to replace it? I can't say I'm surprised (I can't do that either), but I really expected more from you given how much you argue in favor of your case.

Please give up and admit the Zerg suck without the Overmind. You will feel so much better if you do and will be able to focus your mental energy on much more productive pursuits, like making up new broods that serve the Overmind in some super-specific way like "spawn more warriors," "hunt new species," or "harvest more minerals". I would seriously love to see an entire campaign centered around the exploits and adventures of a Zerg mining brood.


No. The main problem here is that you want to discard the SC2 lore COMPLETELY. Because of the Overmind's directives (this is why I use the SC2 lore), it's why the Zerg acted the way they did. It's therefore necessary to have someone from the outside party come in and decide a new direction for the swarm. It's a shame that Kerrigan's actions in using it merely for her personal vendetta wasn't smart. Nevertheless it proved that the zerg are capable of change, it's just that SC2 didn't show the type of change you wanted. It's the reason I accepted the Evolution book, in that just because it was used for war does NOT mean it can never be used for peace.


For King James' sake, the Zerg speak like Shakespearean actors! You can't get less savage than that.
Last I checked, you made it clear that the zerg cannot be anything BUT monsters. So therefore your so-called "less savage" part doesn't count.



I am sure there are any number of ways to write the story such that they have a fighting chance. Reduce the damage caused by the initial invasion, keep the remaining extermination forces fairly small and slow paced, developing weapons based on studies of Zerg biology, using psychic warfare to turn the Zerg against one another, etc.

The Terrans have things like nanofabricators and other technology that is far more advanced than today's and would render much of their society unrecognizable. They are all but stated to live in a cyberpunk dystopia. Mass producing armies of clones, robots, cyborgs, etc is something I would logically expect them to do.

Otherwise, there's no reason to include them in the first place if they don't meaningfully contribute to the plot. To tell a story that is compelling, logically consistent, frugal, and longer than two seconds, we need to trample over your complaints about canon. Sorry! :(

You merely need to put them into the crossfire. The whole reason why the terrans weren't so devastated in SC1 and BW was due to sheer dumb luck, not skill. The swarm's goal was about the Aiur invasion, and then in BW Kerrigan needed to get rid of the UED, hence why the Dominion was spared such a fate (as well as in WoL due to the Keystone). HotS merely showed what happens when the lucky streak runs out.

The whole cloning process was something I had always wondered as well, as to why the Confederacy just didn't do that when they first encountered the zerg. But then again, it's possible such accelerated cloning procedures could be too flawed or something

[Mislagnissa]

No. The main problem here is that you want to discard the SC2 lore COMPLETELY. Yes, because it's bloody stupid!

[ragnarok]

Yes, because it's bloody stupid!

Well considering the fact you're not going to listen to my argument anymore I don't have to keep this going, given what you said in the other thread

[Mislagnissa]

Well considering the fact you're not going to listen to my argument anymore I don't have to keep this going, given what you said in the other thread

Your argument is not constructive. You haven't given a single example of what else could motivate the Zerg. I gave three examples off the top of my head for playable broods, all of which serve the Zerg's original overarching goal in some small vital fashion.

Please, just give on SC2.

[ragnarok]

Your argument is not constructive. You haven't given a single example of what else could motivate the Zerg. I gave three examples off the top of my head for playable broods, all of which serve the Zerg's original overarching goal in some small vital fashion.

Please, just give on SC2.

You mean give up on SC2. And no I will not. Long before I was here on SCL, Gradius and other people tried to explain to me the flaws on the storyline, I agree they had points in several matters. However overall what it basically came down to is "Blizzard was too damn stupid."

It's exactly for this reason why I felt (and considering the fact you said the same thing on the SC2 lore) that if we take this to its extension (this was on the battlenet forums), you might as well just say that the only "success" Blizzard had with the SC2 storyline was that they failed EVERYTHING.

[drakolobo]

You mean give up on SC2. And no I will not. Long before I was here on SCL, Gradius and other people tried to explain to me the flaws on the storyline, I agree they had points in several matters. However overall what it basically came down to is "Blizzard was too damn stupid."

It's exactly for this reason why I felt (and considering the fact you said the same thing on the SC2 lore) that if we take this to its extension (this was on the battlenet forums), you might as well just say that the only "success" Blizzard had with the SC2 storyline was that they failed EVERYTHING.
exactly "Blizzard was too damn stupid."they repeat this overmuch

that in sc they have been a perfect example of applied Darwinism, it does not mean that they can not be transformed in different ways, starcraft 2 wasted very interesting elements but I take advantage of others well

[Mislagnissa]

You mean give up on SC2. And no I will not. Long before I was here on SCL, Gradius and other people tried to explain to me the flaws on the storyline, I agree they had points in several matters. However overall what it basically came down to is "Blizzard was too damn stupid."

It's exactly for this reason why I felt (and considering the fact you said the same thing on the SC2 lore) that if we take this to its extension (this was on the battlenet forums), you might as well just say that the only "success" Blizzard had with the SC2 storyline was that they failed EVERYTHING.Yes. Blizzard failed at everything. Pretty much everyone believes that to some degree.

Trying to salvage the mess that is Starcraft canon is an exercise in masochism. At the beginning the franchise had a premise which was nothing more than an excuse for the three mechanically diverse races to fight one another. By the end of the franchise Blizzard had shot themselves in the foot by systematically eliminating every avenue of conflict, defeating the entire purpose of making the games to begin with. Starcraft was a war simulator, so a happy ending where everyone makes peace is franchise suicide. It would be like if Warhammer 40,000 decided to say that everyone made peace and stopped making new merchandise.

You have yet to devise a new motivation for the Zerg. The thought process you shared boiled down to shutting down any possible conflict, which defeats the point of the game. This is the exact same trap that Blizzard fell into. Every single game has ended in the destruction of the main instigator of that game's conflict, and the next installment has always made up a new antagonist whole cloth. This has given the series a very sloppy, unrealistic backstory that has more in common with the filler episodes of anime like Sailor Moon and Dragonball Z.

If the franchise has any hope of a future, it will either be doomed to endless filler sequels that pull new villains out of their ass or it will retcon all that bullshit to give a static backdrop for constant warfare.

[ragnarok]

exactly "Blizzard was too damn stupid."they repeat this overmuch

that in sc they have been a perfect example of applied Darwinism, it does not mean that they can not be transformed in different ways, starcraft 2 wasted very interesting elements but I take advantage of others well

I certainly had hoped for something a lot more coming from the hybrid. We all knew they'd be used as weapons of war, but I had wanted more than just some stepping stone because Amon wanted an ultimate host body for himself.

[ragnarok]

You have yet to devise a new motivation for the Zerg. The thought process you shared boiled down to shutting down any possible conflict, which defeats the point of the game. This is the exact same trap that Blizzard fell into. Every single game has ended in the destruction of the main instigator of that game's conflict, and the next installment has always made up a new antagonist whole cloth. This has given the series a very sloppy, unrealistic backstory that has more in common with the filler episodes of anime like Sailor Moon and Dragonball Z.

If the franchise has any hope of a future, it will either be doomed to endless filler sequels that pull new villains out of their ass or it will retcon all that bullshit to give a static backdrop for constant warfare.

I hope you know that if you truly wanted the Overmind back it's actually not that hard even if we're to use the SC2 lore, Mislagnissa.

All you have to do is look back to WoL Stetmann's logs on the Zerg research. One of the entries had said the following:

Another breakthrough, and this one scares me. I mapped my way through the DNA of some brain tissue, peering back thousands of years, and I isolated the strain from which the zerg Overmind was derived. Not enough to clone the Overmind, but I could follow this strand to gain insight into how it controlled the zerg.

Under that logic, creating another Overmind would actually be very easy (remember the Raiders didn't have the resources for such an enterprise). All you really need is to do is pick up where NCO left off and have the Defenders of Man do it, bring another Overmind back, and then have this bite them in the ass as they couldn't control it and it turned on them.

[Turalyon]

I am sure there are any number of ways to write the story such that they have a fighting chance. Reduce the damage caused by the initial invasion, keep the remaining extermination forces fairly small and slow paced, developing weapons based on studies of Zerg biology, using psychic warfare to turn the Zerg against one another, etc.

I have no doubt that this is what's been done already. It seems to inform how the Terrans seem to be impervious to any consequences of the damage done to them so far. regardless, you have to concede that it's all retroactive continuity (not using the term in a negative connotation, I must add) though.


Otherwise, there's no reason to include them in the first place if they don't meaningfully contribute to the plot. To tell a story that is compelling, logically consistent, frugal, and longer than two seconds, we need to trample over your complaints about canon. Sorry! :(

I would like to think that any type of fiction isn't just about the plot and that what makes something compelling and consistent isn't tied solely to that. The Terrans are interesting in and of themselves, not because they serve a specific role in the plot (or rather lack of in this case). Afterall, Rebel Yell is quite interesting as a stand-alone and you yourself have criticised the one thing that actually does tie the Terrans to the Sc1 plot as a whole, was something forced and contrived anyway (having Kerrigan actually be assimilated into the Swarm and not killed as was thought in New Gettysburg). Really, who's to stop anyone else saying that it's not just as contrived and forced if you use those retcons you mentioned above to include the Terrans more into the "plot"?

One can easily lose your self in all the machinations of the plot and I think that Sc2 is testament to how weak that story is due to how everything seems forced to cohere to some grander plot. For all its weaknesses and how it's characters are stretched thin despite the apparent focus on them, Sc2's best moments are often those that don't even relate to the plot at all and they mostly involve Terrans (given that two-thirds of it is about Terran characters/matters anyway and yes, I do include Kerrigan as a Terran in this particular regard).

[ragnarok]

Mislagnissa, you have to understand that not all of us want things to be locked in an endless all-out war. Sooner or later it would become too boring even on the zerg end. For example, let's pretend Blizzard decided to bring the zerg back to their old roots, and SC2 ended with a new Overmind being created and Kerrigan kicked off the swarm, leaving the zerg to pick up where they left off from the 1st Overmind's death by Tassadar. Then what would you make to make the zerg different in SC3? (Since the Overmind still wanted to assimilate the Protoss people)

[Mislagnissa]

I hope you know that if you truly wanted the Overmind back it's actually not that hard even if we're to use the SC2 lore, Mislagnissa.

All you have to do is look back to WoL Stetmann's logs on the Zerg research. One of the entries had said the following:

Another breakthrough, and this one scares me. I mapped my way through the DNA of some brain tissue, peering back thousands of years, and I isolated the strain from which the zerg Overmind was derived. Not enough to clone the Overmind, but I could follow this strand to gain insight into how it controlled the zerg.

Under that logic, creating another Overmind would actually be very easy (remember the Raiders didn't have the resources for such an enterprise). All you really need is to do is pick up where NCO left off and have the Defenders of Man do it, bring another Overmind back, and then have this bite them in the ass as they couldn't control it and it turned on them.That is using a retcon to reverse another retcon. In SC1 the Overmind was a bodiless entity created by the telepathic communication between Zerg. It assumed a body for the narrative purpose of allowing the Zerg to be defeated, presumably by causing brain damage to all the Zerg at once much like simultaneously severing the nerve cords of all Protoss. The fact that the Overmind never needed a body suggested that it might return at some point in the future simply as a result of the Zerg healing themselves. Brood War and beyond forgot this and acted if as the Overmind was always a physical entity, as shown by Stetmann's statement that it could be potentially cloned. This makes about as much sense as saying the Khala and the Psi Matrix can be cloned, because the Overmind and Zerg are a biological and superior version of that.

This sort of idiotic retconning based on exaggerating minor features of previous installments has a name: brain bugs (http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/BrainBugs.html). The Zerg fell victim to the same fate as the Borg, only worse because the Borg at least stayed imperialistic conquerors for their entire existence rather than seeking peace for no gain.


I have no doubt that this is what's been done already. It seems to inform how the Terrans seem to be impervious to any consequences of the damage done to them so far. regardless, you have to concede that it's all retroactive continuity (not using the term in a negative connotation, I must add) though.

I would like to think that any type of fiction isn't just about the plot and that what makes something compelling and consistent isn't tied solely to that. The Terrans are interesting in and of themselves, not because they serve a specific role in the plot (or rather lack of in this case). Afterall, Rebel Yell is quite interesting as a stand-alone and you yourself have criticised the one thing that actually does tie the Terrans to the Sc1 plot as a whole, was something forced and contrived anyway (having Kerrigan actually be assimilated into the Swarm and not killed as was thought in New Gettysburg). Really, who's to stop anyone else saying that it's not just as contrived and forced if you use those retcons you mentioned above to include the Terrans more into the "plot"?

One can easily lose your self in all the machinations of the plot and I think that Sc2 is testament to how weak that story is due to how everything seems forced to cohere to some grander plot. For all its weaknesses and how it's characters are stretched thin despite the apparent focus on them, Sc2's best moments are often those that don't even relate to the plot at all and they mostly involve Terrans (given that two-thirds of it is about Terran characters/matters anyway and yes, I do include Kerrigan as a Terran in this particular regard).The entire premise of Starcraft was an excuse to force the three races into war by devising an elaborate backstory to do just that (the Zerg want to conquer all, the Judicators order genocide of Terrans, various civil strife), and the rest of the plot should have arisen organically from that. However, every game has systematically shut off or forgotten existing avenues of conflict, forcing every subsequent installment to pull a villain out of its ass with little or no support in previous lore.

For example, Amon was basically just a stupider, unsympathetic version of the original Overmind. The Overmind was retconned into a hero, even though his motivation was still the same. Of course, the one who called him a hero was actually a member of the faction that opposed Amon's faction... which raises a number of disturbing implications about Ouros' faction. Was Ouros' faction planning to eat everyone all along?

For another example, the Terrans magically forgot that the Protoss are racists who think nothing of casually glassing inhabited planets and have never sought justice for their billions of victims. This is like saying that Israel and Nazi Germany decided to become best friends to fight Soviet Russia, rather than being distracted by Russia and then immediately returning to killing each other after Russia falls (yes, I know that analogy makes no sense, just run with it).


Mislagnissa, you have to understand that not all of us want things to be locked in an endless all-out war. Sooner or later it would become too boring even on the zerg end. The entire premise of Starcraft is perpetual war, like a bargain bin version of Warhammer 40k. It's a guaranteed recipe for an endless franchise: you could make a gazillion campaigns taking place during the first contact war alone. Resolving the conflict is stupid, because then the franchise would end or you would have to make up some lame new antagonist to replace the one you killed off, as has happened in every game so far.


For example, let's pretend Blizzard decided to bring the zerg back to their old roots, and SC2 ended with a new Overmind being created and Kerrigan kicked off the swarm, leaving the zerg to pick up where they left off from the 1st Overmind's death by Tassadar. Then what would you make to make the zerg different in SC3? (Since the Overmind still wanted to assimilate the Protoss people)Absolutely nothing. The Zerg are perfect in their original form (literally, the xel'naga said they were the ultimate life form), they just need more detailing in their broods and characters. The original point of this thread was to explore what those broods could be like.

I did say I would love to see a campaign centered around a Zerg mining brood. Imagine what new breeds they might have specialized for mining.

[ragnarok]

Absolutely nothing. The Zerg are perfect in their original form (literally, the xel'naga said they were the ultimate life form), they just need more detailing in their broods and characters. The original point of this thread was to explore what those broods could be like.

I did say I would love to see a campaign centered around a Zerg mining brood. Imagine what new breeds they might have specialized for mining.

That's just it. I wouldn't have them remain exactly the same forever. Sooner or later you have to give them a different purpose or the audience would get bored. Granted if we take the xenomorph from the alien series, that hasn't changed in decades and people have accepted it, but still.


That is using a retcon to reverse another retcon. In SC1 the Overmind was a bodiless entity created by the telepathic communication between Zerg. It assumed a body for the narrative purpose of allowing the Zerg to be defeated, presumably by causing brain damage to all the Zerg at once much like simultaneously severing the nerve cords of all Protoss. The fact that the Overmind never needed a body suggested that it might return at some point in the future simply as a result of the Zerg healing themselves. Brood War and beyond forgot this and acted if as the Overmind was always a physical entity, as shown by Stetmann's statement that it could be potentially cloned. This makes about as much sense as saying the Khala and the Psi Matrix can be cloned, because the Overmind and Zerg are a biological and superior version of that.

Yes which was a shame for the Overmind having no form until the Aiur invasion in putting the khaydarin crystal in the temple's place. I however wasn't entirely convinced he needed to build himself a body, or at least not in the way we saw.

For your theory of needed to return like the Zerg healing themselves, that would have made the Overmind needing a body pointless, since that would mean it could be killed, whereas without a body it couldn't. Of course I never understood why it built itself a body only AFTER the Aiur invasion, and never bothered trying to prior to that, or for that matter trying to do it before even encountering the first Protoss

[Mislagnissa]

That's just it. I wouldn't have them remain exactly the same forever. Sooner or later you have to give them a different purpose or the audience would get bored. Granted if we take the xenomorph from the alien series, that hasn't changed in decades and people have accepted it, but still.Replace "xenomorph" with romantic comedy, drama, science fiction, or any other imaginable genre of writing and maybe you'll realize how utterly wrong you are. The Zerg were only interesting because of their original quest for perfection, which was suitably alien and distinguished them from typical villains. Removing that removed all their agency and there's nothing suitable to replace it.

Since you seem fundamentally unable to understand or appreciate the Zerg, or the concept of art, try imagining how your suggestion would work for Terrans. Imagine how the Terrans would be if they suddenly stopped pursuing everything that made them human: they stopped working, reproducing, making art, and pretty much just sat down and waited for death. The Zerg's quest for perfection, their view of all other life as either useful genetic material or food for their offspring makes them fundamentally Zerg, just like humanity's pursuit of life, liberty, property and happiness makes us human.

[Turalyon]

*Applause for Misla* Everything you've said over the past few posts (especially regarding the Zerg) is something I and others have alluded to at least once before.

[ragnarok]

Replace "xenomorph" with romantic comedy, drama, science fiction, or any other imaginable genre of writing and maybe you'll realize how utterly wrong you are. The Zerg were only interesting because of their original quest for perfection, which was suitably alien and distinguished them from typical villains. Removing that removed all their agency and there's nothing suitable to replace it.

Since you seem fundamentally unable to understand or appreciate the Zerg, or the concept of art, try imagining how your suggestion would work for Terrans. Imagine how the Terrans would be if they suddenly stopped pursuing everything that made them human: they stopped working, reproducing, making art, and pretty much just sat down and waited for death. The Zerg's quest for perfection, their view of all other life as either useful genetic material or food for their offspring makes them fundamentally Zerg, just like humanity's pursuit of life, liberty, property and happiness makes us human.

If you wanted to go on the terran size with the whole working matter that's a fundamental part of life, I hope you know that wasn't always the case. The whole "work being an integral" part of life has only been around for like 325 years, since the industrial age. The whole fundamentally being human concept requires you to go back to the evolution of technology, and what we did prior to those things. On the other hand, your part of the making art is something that's been a part of us for much longer.

Having said that I felt that this is merely something the zerg were sorely lacking: the evolution of their mentality.

[Mislagnissa]

Steering the thread back to the original topic of brood and breed composition, I have found a number of web pages which give random fan's interpretations of the how the broods are composed at different periods in time and brief profiles of the cerebrates.

https://forums.spacebattles.com/posts/615573/
http://forumwars.wikifoundry.com/page/The+Cerebrates
http://starcraftd6.tripod.com/Zerg.html
http://sclegacy.com/index.php/feature/14-sc-encylcopedia/273-character-index
http://encyklopedie.starcraftcz.com/zerg/heroes.htm


I also mentioned my idea for mining broods, even an entire campaign from the POV of a mining brood. I mean, we do have a SC2 "Brood" custom campaign (https://www.sc2mapster.com/projects/brood) about the "breeder" Az'khar trying to survive during the brood wars or whatever the conflict was. That's more creative than the typical evil overlord, right?

Battlereports.com has some Starcraft reports, at least one of which is formatted to depict a battle from a cerebrate's perspective: http://www.battlereports.com/viewreports.php?reportnum=2079. I really like the author's attempt at xenofiction.

Artist "Phil" @ http://phill-art.deviantart.com has devised three interesting new Zerg breeds: the blightling (http://phill-art.deviantart.com/art/Zerg-Blightling-339577279), encroacher (http://phill-art.deviantart.com/art/Zerg-Encroacher-331872662)and bane creeper (http://phill-art.deviantart.com/art/Zerg-Bane-Creeper-264239998).

Some other fanart I found:

Multiple ideas: https://web.archive.org/web/20140417233013/http://www.sc2blog.com/2007/09/18/starcraft-2-fan-concept-art-and-unit-ideas/
"Triolisk": https://www.artstation.com/artwork/95aky
Zerg "carrier": https://www.artstation.com/artwork/w65wX
Flying bomber: http://natpen.deviantart.com/art/Flying-Bomber-Zerg-Concept-456023606
Zerg artilery and a parasite attack flyer, by "bugball" (http://bugball.deviantart.com/) : https://www.celestialheavens.com/forum/16/6354?start=280&p=191297#p191297
Artist "Darethus" has a few ideas for structures based on the SC1 alpha/beta, and some SC2 ideas like the baneling nest morphing from the spawning pool: https://darethus.deviantart.com/gallery/?catpath=%2F&edit=0&q=Zerg


The carnage mod introduces the octolisk and wurm, which are similar to the corruptor and ash worm in SC2: http://www.samods.org/starcraft/carnage

Sickel introduces a number of new Zerg, like the "underlord" and "cerebellum": http://www.staredit.net/topic/329/#1

I have also entertained the idea of new Zerg breeds. A lot of my ideas were also thought up by others, too. For example

the SC2 queen retconned into SC1 as a failed experiment to clone Protoss based on the xel'naga genetic histories the Zerg acquired. After building a queen's nest/infestation pit (they're the same thing, really), the queen may morph into a brood queen.
The "underlord," a subterranean variant of the overlord. I saw this both in Sickel and Enumerate.
Creep colony mutations that mimic unit attacks, like hydralisk spines or lurker spines or SC2's scourge nests.
Strains created from Terran psychic potential, like the unfortunately-named Pararius, Conexus, Commisceo in Enumerate (see my sig), or the Changeling in SC2 (created as a byproduct of adding Terran genes to the Overseer).


Sorry if I mentioned these in previous posts, but we've gone way off topic by this point.

[Nolanstar]

Back to the original topic; I tend to see anything in-editor as existing in cannon (exception of complete jokes like the carbot zergling) as existing in the universe, just less common or not used by the main forces, or as a prototype, experiment, etc.

This lets me justify a slightly more sensical air/space force.

"Capital Ships"
-Leviathans of various sizes, most averaging around 10 clicks but larger and smaller individuals exist with degrees of diversity. (Egg-carriers as "carriers" - think the massive egg sacs on the ingame model, More armored versions as battleships, and other roles depending on the size and ratious of tentacles, bile-swarm launchers and other offensive organs and appendages)

-Behemoths as smaller transports/frigates, more space-efficient then leviathans for transport given the lack of combat role. (Robears size chart image of the unknown from "The Warp" is my accepted Behemoth)

-*Swarm Guardians as a smaller combat organism, a space siege-engine serving similar to a dreadnaught in mass-effect, poking at range. Described as "almost the size of a battlecruiser" so probably quite large, at least 400-ish meters long. Probably would serve as orbital-bombardment weapons to crack heavy fortresses that just are not worth it in ground units. Guardians have a splash of 27.4-meters with their weapon, so something orders of magnitude more massive should pack a scary punch. Inciendary and explosive spores are used and smaller anti-fighter "munitions". I can see inciendary spores being used on a city from orbit. Able to fire from their maw, along with spawn broodlings from the pods along their carapace, along with a missile-like creature. Variants include a slim, armored version and a version with bilbous membrane pods along its length, presumable more spawn-oriented.

-*Dracolisk, the large zerg organism with a similar shape to a swarm guardian, though very different details and name. May have a similar relationship as mutalisk/guardians. Specialized primarily for air-to-air combat with enemy vessels rather then the swarm-guardians long-range or limited roles, much more maneuverable it is able to effectively duel with enemy capital ships at close range.


"Support Units"
-Overlords in all shapes and forms, the transport-support-detector classic we all know from sc1, specialized detectors such as overseers, specialized transports as seen in LotV and all the various mutations throughout, combat-support versions such as Spotters also exist. Mutations ranging from creep-dropping to hive spores used for infestation/colony spreading. Bio-matter stores for changelings and creating contaminated structures all exist. Limited sighting of spotters integrating stasis tech from destroyed enemies and powering it with their own bio-energy.

-Queens/Brood Queens, brood war style. Needs no introduction other then some strains having glaive wurm capabilities. Later forms get more interesting as they inherit the abilities of their ground-based sisters, as well as the fungal organisms from the borboru matriarch and detachable eyestalks like the viper.

-Vipers, battlefield manipulation. Wings limit movement out of atmosphere as they presumably need to use a gas-based thruster system like mutalisks. Not big enough to pull capital ships, or anything less massive in space. On the ground muscle density helps them be heavy lifters. Various microorganism types to create blinding clouds and the more hideous disabling clouds as well as anti-air parasite swarms. Some strains retain the acid-spore attacks of their primal base as a defense mechanism, while other have detachable eyestalks for limited stealth-detection. Capable of "leeching" energy from a variety of sources including zerg organisms and colony structures, and resources such as minerals. A proto-viper more closely resembling the primal strain saw limited action, nicknamed the "Cobra" due to the blinding abilities and green colouration.

-*Tentacle Monster, in in-editor model based off the BW-style queen, though much thicker, with additional wing-layers and. One unused incomplete ability allowing it to grab 4 enemy units. Presumably larger then a queen and bordering on capital scale by having a reference as a "air siege unit" for the korhal invasion. Probably packs a similar set of tentacles to spine crawlers or leviathans. Not too sure on abilities, having heavily extendable tentacles is still less range then terran weapon systems, so maybe a close-range "grappler" in space combat or having enough muscle mass to throw around things thor+ weight on the ground.

-Spore Best/*Zerg Artillery, a concept-art and model creature, similar in shape but having slight differences such as spores... Probably not too big based on the role, guardian-sized. Serve as an aerial artillery piece similar to guardians as only a defensive measure. The spore beast is able to produce large amounts of various spore types, be they creep spores to facilitate spreading of the colony, or versions used by other organisms for combat. Also explains the guardian-style acid spore attacks. Given the lack of spore pods on its back the "Zerg Artillery" is likely a more armored version, an unused editor behavior gives it a death effect, so possibly the spores are still contained within the unit as it enters combat


"Assault"
-Mutalisks, common in swarms on the ground and semi-suitable in space with their gas-thrusters. Doesn't matter when they get shot down when you have enough to blot out the windows on the enemy fleet. Lots of variations seen. Glaive wurms, acid spores and spines all seen as weapons on the opivisor/stinger, along with varying degrees of wings and wing structures. Lots of battlefield-specific mutations such as glaive wurm variants, ingrained viper and brood lord sequences and abilities, engorged reproductive tracks for larger wurms, scale/carapace differences for different protection. Specific Skrylings seen later as individual transports/airhooks later.

-Scourge. Suicide bombers that perch on larger ships and act as living missiles in space, or glide in atmosphere. Wing-structure an unused SC2 animations indicates they can land/walk, though unwieldy like a bat. Variations include a larval form spawned from specialist nests used as a defensive measure, and smaller versions that load onto ground-units and infested vehicles as missiles. Some variations taking an appearance to an over-sized baneling spawn, laden with the reactive compound rather then their usual plasma-capable explosives.

-Devourers, the heavy form of mutalisks armed with spore-laden corrosive acid. Mutated from the mutalisk by further bulking it up along with adding more insectile traits assimilated from various flying insects, such as the outer-wing beetle-shell to cover the wings. Some mutations include improving the spores to diffuse better into membranes, allowing them to seep into gaps in enemy units and remain longer, a engorged maw and reproductive tract for heavier weapons loads, and improving the tracking abilities in the spores so they can seek in on ground targets in a dense backdrop rather then the emptiness of the sky/space. A spine-like weapon exists, presumably on devourers who keep the stinger rather then opivisor.

-Guardians, the damage-orientated long-range siege bomber. Heavier then mutalisks and slower, but still surprisingly maneuverable. Attacks are heavy enough to threaten reinforced structures and have a splash effect of 30 yards which gives them very powerful ground-clearing abilities. Mutations include prolonged spore range and the ability to internally house scourge to release at air targets (SC Alpha avengers) Also hints at an alternate weapon, a bug-like missile. Primal guardians are also seen to have spores with improved tracking but less damage potential to use against air targets.
-Brood Lords, the alternate to the guardian. Used to siege a target without rendering it useless. Larger broodling forms can be fired heavily enough to damage vehicles, and are able to deal with infantry easily. Along with corralling civilians into areas where they can be infested later and used rather then disintegrated by Guardian fire. Lots of variation seen mostly in the carapace, green-glows on some grown from mutalisks rather then corruptors, porous cariledge ridges to allow better airflow for propulsion, aquatic-swimming modifications allowing them to serve as submersibles.

-Corruptor, the primary heavy-hitting fighter of Zerg fleets, their gravitic locomotion allows them to move through space maneuverably compared to mutalisks relying on gas jets to engage fighters and capital ships. Brain material serving as ablative armor provides protection from energy weapons allowing them to deal with point-defense turrets, while they hit targets with tracking parasite spores, or heavier-hitting but non-tracking versions. Corruptors are also able to produce a variety of caustic compound depending on the strain, corruptive material that bonds and eats into armor, caustic spray that is fired at high-pressure to damage stationary targets, "corruption bombs" to use against ground targets made by mixing the spore larva and caustic compounds. Rarer strains have been seen to use compounds that spread zerg infestation or overseer corruption to crippled targets and ground structures, along with a extendable appendage to siphon nutrients and minerals. Occasionally corrupters have been seen to land and scurry around with their tentacles, but such occurrences are rare as it is not suited to the creature's strengths.

"Spawned"
-*Bone waps are small, melee-attacking organism's seen spawned from placed egg clusters rather than larva, swooping to attack targets with their mandibles and hardened tail in swarms.

-*Fungal Swarm, are suicidal creatures spawned by modified zerg buildings and shriekers as defense methods, resembling large glowing flies they fly into enemy units and explode, imparting the kinetic energy of the strike with the viscous zerg acid inside.

[Nissa]

That's a good idea, Nolan. It makes the world feel bigger.

[ragnarok]

With regards to the tentacle monster, you'd think that would just eventually be something the Viper could evolve itself into. Blizzard made it clear that regarding the abduct ability, the viper's muscle was strong enough to pull battlecruisers, despite being smaller than the terran capital ships. Unless, of course, your version of the viper is just a prototype version of what the tentacle monster could be.

[Nolanstar]

Viper can not possibly pull battlecruiser of any class in a vaccum, unless the plane-sized zerg can somehow increase its mass to pull in a 560-meter metal ship such as a Minotaur Battlecruiser. Frigates or dropships maybe, but more likely it can pull itself to cruisers to get close, then pull in smaller organisms to allow them access.

As for the "Tentacle Monster" It has similar structures to the Brood Queen, possibly its a further twisting of the brood-keeper genome at lest for the physical structure.

There's also a really weird model that was in the HotS Beta Editor for the Zerg artillery labeled as its egg, obviously incomplete given it was a splicing of a leviathan, overlord and lurker bits.

[ragnarok]

Viper can not possibly pull battlecruiser of any class in a vaccum, unless the plane-sized zerg can somehow increase its mass to pull in a 560-meter metal ship such as a Minotaur Battlecruiser. Frigates or dropships maybe, but more likely it can pull itself to cruisers to get close, then pull in smaller organisms to allow them access.


Not a SINGLE viper, Nolanstar. But how many MULTIPLE vipers you think will it be possible to pull a battlecruiser?

[Nolanstar]

In atmosphere, Hundreds+ depending on what the cruiser is doing, presumably enough could latch on to alter the flight path, but considering BV's can push and accelerate their mass in atmo without issues their engines can probably deal with the strain. In a vacuum probably more depending on the strength of the gas propulsion. Also prime targets for a missile barrage considering they would have to clump-up to adequately put the net force into a useful direction.

[ragnarok]

In atmosphere, Hundreds+ depending on what the cruiser is doing, presumably enough could latch on to alter the flight path, but considering BV's can push and accelerate their mass in atmo without issues their engines can probably deal with the strain. In a vacuum probably more depending on the strength of the gas propulsion. Also prime targets for a missile barrage considering they would have to clump-up to adequately put the net force into a useful direction.

I'll take this into consideration once I'm done gathering my ideas then....

[Nolanstar]

What are you doing, writing a story? (If you don't mind me asking)

Consider though, it is the Zerg Swarm The loss of hundreds of individuals is nothing and they can afford to throw millions of units at a fortification. Left alone on a planet they can simply spread across the surface and underground, converting the planets resources into more zerg.

Also, from a fleet action base there is an additional factor to consider, though it affects ground as well.

Infested units. Zerg forces and fleets in this case have been shown to maintain infested vehicles via incorporating, hijacking or "hermit-crabbing" them. On the same vehicle type you range from being relatively unmodified bar the infestation, to having the weapons and abilities redone with zerg attributes. Some infested siege tanks are simply infested, controlled siege tanks while others are grafted onto crawler legs, and further still some serve as accelerators for zerg ground units, ingesting and launching them at targets.

The same affect would occur in space, within the zerg fleets infested Battlecruisers and transports would exist, serving their original purpose and simply being infested with the growths required to control, maintain. While others such as the Aleksander are completely repurposed, "Hermit-crabbed" as the only remaining resemblance to their original is the metal shell. Smaller infested craft would probably be stored just as normal fliers, inside Leviathans/Behemoths or in the docking areas of infested transports, battlecruisers, etc. What could be interesting is to have the zerg leave the koprulu sector and serve as the protagonists/antagonists with a new batch of two other races, fulfilling their original desire of perfection. Seeing your units fall to bugs, scary. Seeing that the bugs have apparently dealt with bigger fish then you and have now twisted war machines far more advanced then you could hope to field in the next century into their own purposes or retained them for their original is just terrifying. The implication that the unending swarm has done this to countless other races and worlds more powerful then yours is a terror weapon fitting of Baelrog Brood.

[ragnarok]

What are you doing, writing a story? (If you don't mind me asking)


Something like that, it's why I'm still paying attention to what Blizzard keeps announcing in the Co-Op missions. Elements of what they reveal will be put into the story

[Gradius]

In atmosphere, Hundreds+ depending on what the cruiser is doing, presumably enough could latch on to alter the flight path, but considering BV's can push and accelerate their mass in atmo without issues their engines can probably deal with the strain. In a vacuum probably more depending on the strength of the gas propulsion. Also prime targets for a missile barrage considering they would have to clump-up to adequately put the net force into a useful direction.
How much different would it be if vipers could land or latch onto a hatchery or leviathan before pulling in the battlecruisr?

[Nolanstar]

Landing without digging themselves into the ground as stability would not provide much benefit. They can support their own weight plus a thor or ultralisk which implies that their wings provide a lot of the anchor strength. Landing on the ground, digging in and using their wings to add further force down may provide an effective anchor. Perhaps a handful could snag a Raven, but still probably severl dozen to hook a battlecruiser, depending on what the cruiser is doing, atmosphere consistency do determine amount of force generated by wings, ground composition as an extra layer. A older Behemoth, Leviathen or smaller Minotaur, Hercules cruiser after getting hit by a bunch of scourge and power reserves depleted by constant shield and weapon usage might be slowly pulled into the ground, probably enough structural integretity to survive consider Nomad-II did okay and the more skeletal Helios was still somewhat intact.

There's really no mathematical basis for this without the mass of any class of battlecruiser, its maximum thrust. Mass of something like a Thor or Ultra as comparison and benchmark. I'm just making guesses by comparing dimensions and taking into account zerg biology op-ness.

[ragnarok]

There's really no mathematical basis for this without the mass of any class of battlecruiser, its maximum thrust. Mass of something like a Thor or Ultra as comparison and benchmark. I'm just making guesses by comparing dimensions and taking into account zerg biology op-ness.

Why use a Thor? Those things are way tinier compared to the BC

[Nolanstar]

Comparison, its relatively boxy and easy to get dimensions from for things like neosteel and other terran material mass.

[ragnarok]

Figures. I'll need to see the scale of the Thor and the BC side to side then

[Nolanstar]

Robears Size chart. Just open it in a photo editor and drag them.

On another note, I've wrote a bunch of stories over the years, some effectively fanfics and some original. I've been tempted to post them lately. Should I? (Not the original stuff, that stays with me for now)

[ragnarok]

Robears Size chart. Just open it in a photo editor and drag them.

On another note, I've wrote a bunch of stories over the years, some effectively fanfics and some original. I've been tempted to post them lately. Should I? (Not the original stuff, that stays with me for now)

I didn't know you wrote such stories. Do you have a fanfiction.net account? Because I'm on that site daily looking for fics. After HotS's release, SC fic activity plummeted.

[Mislagnissa]

I've been thinking more about new concepts for broods and breeds. To keep everyone on the same page, I decided to use specific jargon.

Zerg "strains" (telepathic ranking)

I would adopt the zerg hierarchy used by Leovaunt's StarCraft RPG. It divides the zerg into mastermind, commander, specialist and minion. In canon brief mention is made of "alpha zerg" being a terran label for cerebrates and queens, so I decided to combine that with the Leovaunt ranks to create an in-universe designation.

Alpha zerg are those who lead hive clusters, broods, swarms, etc. They include canonical breeds such as the overmind shell, cerebrate, brood mother, etc. They are named for both their position and the fact that they produce alpha waves like terran ghosts do.

Beta zerg are the secondary agents relied on by alpha zerg to relay orders to other zerg. They include canonical breeds such as overlords, queens, infestors and variants thereof. Beta zerg are at least as intelligent as humans and are capable of holding conversations. Beta zerg may command any gamma and delta zerg, but in practice only relay commands to breeds relevant to their tasks (e.g. queens commanding drones, overlords commanding zerglings, infestors commanding infested terrans).

Gamma zerg are the rank and file minions. They include laborers like the drones, warriors like the zerglings and hydralisks. They answer to the commands of beta zerg. Some gamma breeds, such as locusts and broodlings, respond to the commands of sub-beta zerg.

Delta zerg are more intelligent than gamma zerg, but not necessarily to the degree of beta zerg. Some delta zerg are sub-beta, meaning that they can relay commands to specific breeds of gamma zerg. Delta zerg include canonical breeds like defilers, swarm hosts and brood lords.

Zerg "fireflies"
The "fireflies" are an idea I had after reading about various concepts from the SC2 beta that were ultimately scrapped. Zerg fireflies are ubiquitous organisms which serve a variety of roles within hive clusters, and are conceptually similar to Scrin buzzers from Command & Conquer 3: Tiberium Wars. Firefly swarms may garrison zerg structures or larger breeds like ultralisks to provide defense, produced by firefly colonies as ammunition, or deployed directly on the battlefield as support canon fodder.

Mind worms
Inspired by the mind worms from Alpha Centauri. Zerg mind worms are a variant of larvae which have offensive psychic powers due to added human psychic genetics. This allows them to disable larger creatures long enough to burrow into their bodies and kill them. They might function similar to, or be the same as, the fireflies mentioned above.

[Nolanstar]

On a personal note, I tend to view scrapped units as canon when possible, just being rarer then the contemporary game units. Somewhat supported by what happened to the SC:Ghost units and model re-usage. So the "fireflies" above being the swarm infestation from the queens in SC2 Development. or the in-editor model equivalent.

[ragnarok]

On a personal note, I tend to view scrapped units as canon when possible, just being rarer then the contemporary game units. Somewhat supported by what happened to the SC:Ghost units and model re-usage. So the "fireflies" above being the swarm infestation from the queens in SC2 Development. or the in-editor model equivalent.

Some of the SC Ghost units already have become canon in the SC universe. Look at the Grizzly, it got its spot in the SC Ghost Spectres book

[Nolanstar]

That's kinda my point. Given how I said it was supported by the SC:Ghost units. Blizzard having them show up in other stuff means they exist - and if they exist, whats wrong with some of the weirder things being prototypes, defunct strains or exotic ships made by a specific tribe? Heck, theres even lore for some like the Nomad.

[ragnarok]

That's kinda my point. Given how I said it was supported by the SC:Ghost units. Blizzard having them show up in other stuff means they exist - and if they exist, whats wrong with some of the weirder things being prototypes, defunct strains or exotic ships made by a specific tribe? Heck, theres even lore for some like the Nomad.

I don't recall the Nomad lore, what did it say?

[Mislagnissa]

That's kinda my point. Given how I said it was supported by the SC:Ghost units. Blizzard having them show up in other stuff means they exist - and if they exist, whats wrong with some of the weirder things being prototypes, defunct strains or exotic ships made by a specific tribe? Heck, theres even lore for some like the Nomad.

I am actually surprised the zerg have so few units considering they consumed countless worlds over countless millennia. Although the same may be leveled at the terrans and protoss. I guess it must be due to gameplay being an abstraction of reality. Trying to account for every model of fighter jet is just not practical for a video game.

[ragnarok]

I am actually surprised the zerg have so few units considering they consumed countless worlds over countless millennia. Although the same may be leveled at the terrans and protoss. I guess it must be due to gameplay being an abstraction of reality. Trying to account for every model of fighter jet is just not practical for a video game.

The Overmind probably took what he thought was the best of the best and discarded what he didn't want. After all, the zerg follow the whole "survival of the fittest" concept, which means those too weak deserve to die. Even in the SC2 lore they kept that.

[Mislagnissa]

The Overmind probably took what he thought was the best of the best and discarded what he didn't want. After all, the zerg follow the whole "survival of the fittest" concept, which means those too weak deserve to die. Even in the SC2 lore they kept that.
That is not what "survival of the fittest" means and your definition of "weak" is nonsensical. The zerg do not care about physical strength specifically, they care about anything that could be useful to them or has the potential to be useful. They assimilated overlords for their enhanced senses (and only later used them as control nodes due to a happy side-effect) and they assimilated sonaran mold because it was a key ingredient for explosives. Most of their core genuses, such as the caterpillar slothien and the weaponless brontolith, were extremely "weak" before the zerg turned them into monsters. The zerg seem to be extremely frugal, and even a species which has no new genes to offer the zerg would still serve a purpose as food for the nest.

Between SC1 and SC2, a period of four years, the zerg supposedly developed a dozen new breeds without discarding what they had. Logically, they should have thousands of different breeds by now. It makes no sense from a military perspective to discard all that diversity because diversity is a zerg value. The only explanation is that it is not feasible from a game design perspective to design all those units. It does not make any sense to take game mechanics literally, as the youtube series Starcrafts attests.

[ragnarok]

Between SC1 and SC2, a period of four years, the zerg supposedly developed a dozen new breeds without discarding what they had. Logically, they should have thousands of different breeds by now. It makes no sense from a military perspective to discard all that diversity because diversity is a zerg value. The only explanation is that it is not feasible from a game design perspective to design all those units. It does not make any sense to take game mechanics literally, as the youtube series Starcrafts attests.

Then you can consider that after fighting the terrans and protoss for years, they simply kept what was the most practical and kept what wasn't in reserve, only to be used in the direst of emergencies

[Nolanstar]

More likely, the genetic history of the zerg contains many hundreds of organisms, and we see the current combat roster. The strains that proved most effective at their roles. I like to think lots of the other species got incorporated into the core strains rather then being a primary host themselves (Things like Hydra's having seven notable species in the DNA). All those weird variants we see in various SC1 maps have different supplementary genetics from different organisms.

[ragnarok]

More likely, the genetic history of the zerg contains many hundreds of organisms, and we see the current combat roster. The strains that proved most effective at their roles. I like to think lots of the other species got incorporated into the core strains rather then being a primary host themselves (Things like Hydra's having seven notable species in the DNA). All those weird variants we see in various SC1 maps have different supplementary genetics from different organisms.

And yet for all the books, comics, short stories, etc, we've hardly seen any other zerg organism....

[Nolanstar]

Current roster, heck just comparing the visual differences from SC1 imply a good amount of genetic change.

[ragnarok]

Current roster, heck just comparing the visual differences from SC1 imply a good amount of genetic change.

I'm not sure if visual differences from SC1 count, hell Blizzard could just say improved graphics as a reason

[Mislagnissa]

I had a few ideas for species the zerg could have assimilated before they discovered humanity.

"Dimensional Shambler" from the Cthulhu mythos
"Data Overmind" or "Sky Canopy Dominion" from Haruhi Suzumiya
"Arn" from Animorphs
Honestly just pick any alien species from any work of fiction you think could be useful to the zerg in some capacity

[Nolanstar]

Field guide lists several sc1 unit depictions as older strains, and given that SC22 cinematics use a different Zergling model for the Kerrigan abduction flashback its safe to say that most breeds looked like their SC1 appearances at the time.

[Mislagnissa]

I had a few more thoughts for more unusual zerg breeds.

So one idea is that the creep has its own ecology distinct from the military breeds, produced as a side effect of the zerg's rapid metabolism (according to one piece of fluff, their mutation rate is orders of magnitude faster than that of terrestrial life). These organisms resemble the same kind of deadly wildlife you find in War Against the Chtorr and Warren Fahy's Fragment. A zerg hive world is a death world even if you are far away from the hive clusters. Using some examples from those books I mentioned, "hender's wasps" and "disk ants" are tiny crustaceans that can kill grown men. The "meeps" are adorable fuzzballs that use their pheromones to convince other species to care for them, to the point of abandoning their own young or starving to death.

Another idea is that assimilated humans (i.e. produced from larvae or molted from infested subjects) are barely recognizable as human rather than being sexy with boobs and high-heeled feet. Less like Kerry and more like Necrophage foragers (http://amplitudecommunity.tumblr.com/post/112230201463/concept-art-and-facts-on-the-necrophages-faction). Looking at the forager concept art, you can clearly see some human resemblance in the torso and limbs but nowhere in the head or extremities. I find this to be a much more evocative and scary take on the zerg's plan for humanity than wannabe succubus.

Speaking of the necrophages from Endless Legend, they sound a lot like how I imagine the zerg did as they transitioned under the influence of xel'naga. The original zerg were insignificant worms of some sort with telepathy and horizontal gene transfer, but under the xel'naga influence they got bigger and hardier, and as a side effect they became parasitic. The necrophages are insectoid creatures which lay their eggs in corpses, and sometimes the offspring acquire traits of the hosts. That is probably what the original zerg did and served as a precursor to their development of parasitism. I imagine that they became parasitic in stages, initially entering live hosts simply to eat them from the inside while traveling to new feeding grounds, then later developing the ability to merge with and control their nervous systems without killing them. Since zerg horizontal gene transfer resembles that of Bdelloid rotifers, it is easy to assume that the original zerg are likewise immortal and reproduce asexually.

[Mislagnissa]

Another idea is that the zerg have their own equivalent of the tyranid zoanthrope (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Zoanthrope) or physokerme (http://wh40k-de.lexicanum.com/wiki/Physokerm)derived from terran psychic genes. It has an atrophied body that travels by telekinetic flight and it fires bolts of telekinetic force or psychically-generated plasma.

[Mislagnissa]

I thought a bit about the zerg biology and technobabble.

I think a key reason why the zerg can regenerate (beyond heightened metabolism, stem cells, etc) is that their organ systems are not centralized, at least not in the same way as vertebrates.

Vertebrates that suffer trauma to the central nervous system or spinal column may be left crippled or killed instantly; trauma to the circulatory system results in blood loss and death. Arthropods, by comparison, can suffer much greater damage before dying. Cockroaches are famous for surviving without a head until they die of dehydration/starvation.

So not only can zerg recover from trauma much more quickly than humans can, they are more resistant to crippling injuries in the first place.

[Gradius]

Kinda like Krogan from mass effect.

[Mislagnissa]

Kinda like Krogan from mass effect.

The krogan never made much sense to me. Their evolution selected for contradictory characteristics like mass spawning, redundant organs and intelligence. Those don’t make sense together because they require opposing selection pressures. Natural selection operates on what maximizes reproduction.

If you spawn in mass, you are not going to need physical durability or intelligence. Exhibit A: batracians and salmon.

If you are physically durable, you are not going to need intelligence or mass spawning. Exhibit B: rhinos and bears.

If you are smart, you are not going to need physical durability or mass spawning. Exhibit C: birds, cetaceans and primates.

In the case of krogans, a single couple will have over a hundred children every year. That is physically impossible because the females cannot hold that many eggs and there is no way the parents can raise and educate that many children. Yet the games make their exploding population an ethical dilemma, even though human populations today pre-spaceflight are heading toward decline due to affluence.