StarCraft & Atmosphere

[Visions of Khas]

This has been talked about here and there, but I wanted to get some opinions centralized.

What is was it, in your mind, that made the original games undeniably StarCraft? What was it about the plot, characters, dialog, terraining and maps that gave it that unquestionable feel of the Koprulu Sector? Where and how did SCII falter? And how could the story mode/ship setting have been adjusted to embody the same feel and atmosphere? How did it distinguish itself from similar scifi settings?

[TheEconomist]

Where and how did SCII falter?

Samwise took a massive Didier all over the artwork.

And Metzen gonna Metzen.

[KaiserStratosTygo]

For me it was a few things

StarCraft began at the perfect time in Sci Fi pop culture, the decade itself and the cannibalization of other projects:
-90's grit, that cold barely put together aesthetic of jury-rigged tech from the Terrans was a major factor
-Alien franchise influence, people talk about the Zerg being inspired by the Tyranids, but I always felt the Zerg (especially Hydralisks) were more like the Xenomorphs
-Used future aesthetic (like the Original Trilogy of Star Wars)
-Starship Troopers influence, the UED campaign... 'nuff said.
-Gray vs Grey morality, heroes were few in number, basically everyone was a villain, and even the actions of the heroes had shitty consequences in the end (this is something SC2 lacks in spades)
-

[Turalyon]

This is going to be an unconventional answer but I think the biggest thing that made Sc stand out the most was (like most things really) its timing. Of course, the initial attraction to Sc would've been due to the influence and familiarity of certain aspects to other sci-fi properties (Strats has got it mostly covered there in terms of aesthetics. The maintained consistency of that particular aesthetic within Sc is also quite strong) but the slight differences and take that Sc took made it stand out from those other properties. Sure we've had space pioneer humans, bug aliens and hi-tech aliens before in their own individual offerings, but never had their been a focus on the direct conflict of these 3 sci-fi archetypes together at the time. That they were each so different in background and gameplay was what made it stand out. The latter was especially notable because all previous RTS prior to Sc either only had 2 very different sides (ala Command and Conquer) or 2 similar look/play/feel (ala Total Annihilation). If there were games with more than two races (like the ancient Dune 2 and Age of Empires), the differences were isolated to either missing or having a unit/capability but still largely felt like it was all just variations of one side.

Another thing that most games miss these days, and what contributes to why Sc is so memorable, is a really awesome manual. Most of the RTS games I remember most fondly were those that had manuals that went out of the way to give detailed reasons for why a particular unit exists, how it came to be and all the fictional history behind it all (extra points for those games that did this even though they didn't really have straight narratives/stories to there singleplayer - ala Earth 2150 or were tangential to the experience of the game itself - ala Homeworld). All this would be considered pointless and inconsequential fluff, but they really helped build investment into universe being shown.

By the time Sc2 came into development, games had changed a lot in terms of focus and development. There was also tonne more variety in Sci-fi properties to geek about too. Amongst all that, the only pull Sc2 really had was nostalgia and gameplay. In terms of the atmosphere and what was memorable about SC2, it was more to do with the mechanics and the stuff you could play with rather than the story and lore. I remember playing WoL and getting lost in all the interesting things you could do and see on the Hyperion and being fine with that until I started to get this growing but gnawing sensation that it was all empty. They felt like distractions for the sake of distraction not really getting anywhere. The lack of a narrative for the most part confused the hell out of me at first. I had played the majority of the game being none-the-wiser and then thought, there should be a story to all this stuff going on. When it did, I realised that I was heading into the final arc of the thing and it made me retrospectively think "that's it?" after completing all those missions.

[Nissa]

Timing was certainly a factor. During the nineties there was a lot of gritty, dark things that were still appropriate for younger people. Part of it was the technological level at the time -- like the cold, austere graphics of Star Fox SNES, the dread feelings inherent in Mechwarrior, etc. Maybe this is nostalgia talking, but I like that kind of thing. History is replete with darkish stuff, and how people constantly make mistakes and poor choices that lead to awful results.

In other words, despite the fact that SC1 isn't terribly original, it is familiar with us in the sense that it feels like history. Most of the time the behavior of the characters feels like something that would indeed happen, somewhere in the world.

Plus, there's also tension. The player can't relax. The longer the the story goes on, the more things go wrong. And when, at the end of BW, everyone figures out that they should fight the Zerg and not each other, here come the hybrids.

SCII went wrong by ignoring the first game. They were so concerned about finding a new audience, that they decided they would keep enough stuff so that they could pretend it was a sequel, and then they hired Brian Kindregan to take their crap and try and make it make sense.

[Visions of Khas]

StarCraft came in at a very interesting time, riding the waves started by pop culture.

I'd also say a contributing factor were the inherent limitations of the editor. Atmospheric touches -- the crunch of metal, foot steps, chirping birds, the rush of water -- were all absent; while in SCII they're are strongly pushed. I'd almost characterize it as minimalist. Moreover, the terraining told the tale of harsh conditions breeding harsh people. Trees were a rarity; the only doodads you had for the terran-aligned wastes were these dead things, mere shadows of trees really. Every world humanity touched, every world within their grasp, were ruined, sad things.

The only real atmosphere was in the briefings and cinematics. The Terran theme, both ominous and uncertain, was made chilling in the confines of the fallout bunker. The terran faction was a collection of war-torn tribes, individual lives nothing more than meat for the grinder. This disregard for life owes itself to both pop culture scifi, and its WarHammer 40K roots.

I think all of this atmosphere is upset by the assets provided to the mapmakers by the editor. Lush forests and diverse peoples now dot the terran worlds in the SCII era, eliminating the omnipresent and palpable bleak veil of its predecessor.

StarCraft made due with less. StarCraft II made more and lost.

[The_Blade]

The atmosphere in general was also quite "empty", per say. Not like SC2, where the clutter leads to nowhere (like Turalyon said).

Dialogues and texts were the only source for story at the time. Small flickers of artwork, be it portraits or cinematics, worked as references for your imagination. So, we all imagined a vast universe on our own, which was nurtured and inspired by other franchises that came first (either directly or just as a parallel we did on our own).

I always loved watching the Zerg cinematics. It was just a monologue over Zerg ruining a city. The Heroic characters were no where to be seen, they were not as relevant to the mayhem as in SC2. This inspired fear. I remember thinking that if Kerrigan ever invaded Earth I would die to Zerglings and not her. Earth's armies would fall too Zerglings and Hydras too. Hiding my Heroes at the base also helped build a thought of mortality around them. In contrast, Kerrigan in HotS can demolish whole bases on her own. Her cinematic interpretation was also of a one woman army. HotS opening cinematic tried to be true to the original StarCraft, but there were too many mistakes. We could see the Zerg army attacking during the day, the Terrans fought them without fear, there was little swarming into or over buildings, and Kerrigan was just standing there waiting to be sniped.

[Nissa]

Oh, you just made me think of that cinematic in SC1 where a marine watches as shockwave washes over him. Man, that was dark. Simple, but effective.

So I guess SC1 was more about emotion, whereas SC2 was more about spectacle.

[Visions of Khas]

That's pretty spot-on Nissa. I'd watch the cinematics repeatedly but it wasn't for the CG. I'd always get a little more out of them with each viewing. It's also telling that they were kinda vignettes; they never followed the main characters, but explored the consequences of their actions.

[Turalyon]

So I guess SC1 was more about emotion, whereas SC2 was more about spectacle.

I wouldn't say Sc1 was more about emotion exactly since Sc2 tries to be emo too through its focus on "characters". Rather, Sc1 is more about consequence. Things that happened throughout Sc1 resonated more because they felt more significant, long-lasting, irreversible and natural. In contrast, Sc2 is definitely more about spectacle but it's also more about contrivance.

One only has to look at how death is treated in Sc1 vs Sc2 for a prime example. In Sc1, most characters that die stay dead. In Sc2, there are re-appearances of "dead" past characters like Tassadar, the Overmind, Stukov and even the concept of Amon revolves around him being apparently "dead" at first. The announcement of Raynor's "death" in HotS and the appearance of "Fenix" in LotV also qualifies in this regard. Death is treated like a gimmick, something temporary/to be gotten over. The perceived unreality of it is already one thing to contend with (which is not necessarily a bad thing), but that it's also purposefully and obviously done for the express sake of cameo/callback is what makes it contrived. It also makes any death that does occur in Sc2 somewhat meaningless because of the precedent of death not being permanent.

Compare this to the only characters that come back from death, so to speak, within Sc1 (Kerrigan, after being lost on New Gettysburg, and Fenix, after the Zerg recapture New Antioch). It is not done lightly and there's been significant change from the characters experience of having survived that near-death experience (it's interesting that both seem to be fairly ok with it). Sure, it's still considered contrived in terms of how it was ambiguously setup in the first place (we never see those characters actually die) but it isn't all just for the sake of contrivance. Contrast this with what we get in HotS, where the "death" and reappearance of Raynor is used expressly as contrivance in order to move Kerrigan's character into a certain direction/position for the story (to first avenge this "death" and then "do good" when reprimanded by this one specific guy) whilst making Raynor, whom we first see after being missed for the majority, be an out-of-character dick to her temporarily for no other reason (except perhaps that he's just repulsed by her physical appearance and pissed that he can't love her anymore in that state?) despite being rescued by her.

[DonnyZeDoof]

I wouldn't say Sc1 was more about emotion exactly since Sc2 tries to be emo too through its focus on "characters". Rather, Sc1 is more about consequence. Things that happened throughout Sc1 resonated more because they felt more significant, long-lasting, irreversible and natural. In contrast, Sc2 is definitely more about spectacle but it's also more about contrivance.

One only has to look at how death is treated in Sc1 vs Sc2 for a prime example. In Sc1, most characters that die stay dead. In Sc2, there are re-appearances of "dead" past characters like Tassadar, the Overmind, Stukov and even the concept of Amon revolves around him being apparently "dead" at first. The announcement of Raynor's "death" in HotS and the appearance of "Fenix" in LotV also qualifies in this regard. Death is treated like a gimmick, something temporary/to be gotten over. The perceived unreality of it is already one thing to contend with (which is not necessarily a bad thing), but that it's also purposefully and obviously done for the express sake of cameo/callback is what makes it contrived. It also makes any death that does occur in Sc2 somewhat meaningless because of the precedent of death not being permanent.


What did you think of Zeratul's death in Legacy of the Void? Did it feel meaningless?

[The_Blade]

What did you think of Zeratul's death in Legacy of the Void? Did it feel meaningless?

For me it felt orchestrated. LotV Zeratul is a complete different character to the WoL or HotS counterpart, and he was almost written as a "just die" role. When he dusted out into the wind, my disbelief just skyrocketed.

I could compare it best with Tychus' death.

[ragnarok]

For me it felt orchestrated. LotV Zeratul is a complete different character to the WoL or HotS counterpart, and he was almost written as a "just die" role. When he dusted out into the wind, my disbelief just skyrocketed.

I could compare it best with Tychus' death.

I doubt it mattered. On the battlenet forums there's enough people who said Zeratul died the moment the SC2 lore writers came out anyway.

[KaiserStratosTygo]

"there's enough people who said Zeratul died the moment the SC2 lore writers came out anyway.

Well.... if the shoe fits...

[ragnarok]

Well.... if the shoe fits...

That's more because you and others felt it makes no sense to put prophecy into a sci-fi game. Now, on the other hand had Blizzard admitted since WoL that it'll be sci-fantasy....

[Turalyon]

What did you think of Zeratul's death in Legacy of the Void? Did it feel meaningless?


For me it felt orchestrated. LotV Zeratul is a complete different character to the WoL or HotS counterpart, and he was almost written as a "just die" role.

Blade's onto it. It's used more as a means to serve the plot of the story rather than feel like something that naturally builds to it or is narratively earnt. Also, note that I said "somewhat meaningless". Sure, his demise is depicted well enough in that "going out like a champ/hero" sort of way, but given that Sc2 has resurrected dead characters in Sc1 under flimsy pretenses (the Overmind was kind of alive again... for the third time!), it makes any death we see from that point feel shallow/less concrete because there's always this doubt that they'd somehow still be alive due to some potential later, yet-to-be-revealed retcon. I remember that there was, at the time of when WoL was out, the possibility of Tychus making a comeback at one point all because he was popular. That doubt carries on to any of the deaths that you do see later (like Warfield and Mengsk). It's such that "seeing is believing" isn't anymore.

With Zeratul's death specifically, it's supposed to be affecting/meaningful to the audience largely due to nostalgia of the character as depicted in Sc1 because there's very precious little in Sc2 that endears Zeratul to the audience member. A complete neophyte to Starcraft who only goes through Sc2 would probably wonder why anyone would care at all for Sc2 Zeratul since he was was a loner the whole time and had only "informed friends" in Raynor and Artanis, who didn't even act that friendly with him in any of the short interactions they had anyway.

When Z died in LotV, it was certainly meaningful alright... but not in the way the writers would've liked me to be. Rather than the expected/typical sadness and pity about missing the character that the writers were aiming for, it was more to the relief that the character was disposed of so that it no longer had to suffer any further writing indignities placed on him already. It's weird that instead of wanting the character to not die, I hoped that he actually stayed dead for the sake of what integrity and dignity of the character that was left (if he indeed had any at all remaining in Sc2 that is).


there's enough people who said Zeratul died the moment the SC2 lore writers came out anyway.

This joke cracks me up everytime.

Whoever that "thing" was masquerading as "Zeratul" in Sc2, it definitely was not the Zeratul depicted in Sc1. That's not even considering him having a different voice and wonky dialogue in Sc2 neither!

[Visions of Khas]

Fred Tatusciore is a skilled and prolific voice actor, but he lacks that incisive bite Jack Ritschel had. Ritschel also brought an amount of gravitas to DuGalle he otherwise lacked. Zeratul was always a brooding character. But where Zeratul of Broid War was calculating, determined and had a streak of righteous fury, SCII Zeratul had his presence undercut by melancholy and resignation -- even for all the talk of hope.

[ragnarok]

This joke cracks me up everytime.

Whoever that "thing" was masquerading as "Zeratul" in Sc2, it definitely was not the Zeratul depicted in Sc1. That's not even considering him having a different voice and wonky dialogue in Sc2 neither!

Why said anything about joking? If you had looked at the battlenet forums, you'd know what I'm talking about.

[Nissa]

I kinda cheered when "Zeratul" died. In an ironic way, because the death scene was so stupid.

Also, while we're complaining about SC2, one of my worst gripes about SC2 was that it had nothing to do with WoL and HotS. I grant that some here may consider that a plus, but it just goes to show that nobody had a plan from the beginning. Nothing from the previous games really built into LotV, creating a narrative. It's just one random thing after another, plus a bunch of reactions from fan complaint.

[ragnarok]

I kinda cheered when "Zeratul" died. In an ironic way, because the death scene was so stupid.

Also, while we're complaining about SC2, one of my worst gripes about SC2 was that it had nothing to do with WoL and HotS. I grant that some here may consider that a plus, but it just goes to show that nobody had a plan from the beginning. Nothing from the previous games really built into LotV, creating a narrative. It's just one random thing after another, plus a bunch of reactions from fan complaint.

I had expected his death, maybe not as early as LotV had it, but still. Regardless, I didn't mind it, just not happy with so many of those on the battlenet forums saying that he died the moment Blizzard began work on SC2 in the first place.

[Turalyon]

Fred Tatusciore is a skilled and prolific voice actor, but he lacks that incisive bite Jack Ritschel had.

Even so, I don't think that even the late Jack Ritschel could've breathed life into the abysmal dialogue Zeratul was given in Sc2.


I kinda cheered when "Zeratul" died. In an ironic way, because the death scene was so stupid.

He died giving Artanis a very important hair-cut.


Also, while we're complaining about SC2, one of my worst gripes about SC2 was that it had nothing to do with WoL and HotS. I grant that some here may consider that a plus, but it just goes to show that nobody had a plan from the beginning. Nothing from the previous games really built into LotV, creating a narrative. It's just one random thing after another, plus a bunch of reactions from fan complaint.

I actually ranted about this very thing back before HotS had been released and then again afterward/before LotV's release. The Xel'Naga stuff in LotV is ostensibly what Sc2 was supposed to be all about and what Sc1/BW was leading toward but you could hardly tell given that WoL and HotS were more about Terran affairs for the whole time.

Just like WoL had a yawning void of a middle in its narrative, the SC2 trilogy when seen as one work, had a yawning void in the middle of its narrative (HotS), too. I remember saying at the time that in order to avoid such an issue, HotS needed to finish the Terran angle quickly (ie: kill Mengsk) and then transition to the Hybrid/Xel'Naga/Amon stuff to give it appropriate weight and connective tissue to make it a connected trilogy.

[DonnyZeDoof]

You know back when they first announced that StarCraft II was going to be a trilogy they released a lot of promotional material that tended to depict Raynor, Kerrigan and Zeratul:


http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/starcraft/images/7/7a/StarCraft_II_SC2_Logo2.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20081018092830


I think initially Zeratul was supposed to be the main character of the Protoss campaign but somewhere down the line, Blizzard decided to change it to Artanis. Do you guys think that was worth it? I mean whose character would you rather see ruined: Zeratul or Artanis?

[ragnarok]

He died giving Artanis a very important hair-cut.


That's physically, Tura. Something tells me (given how you disliked the story) that to you, he died WAY before that.

[Visions of Khas]

You're right Donny, Zeratul was supposed to be the protagonist but they switched to Artanis.

I kinda wish we saw more of Artanis being "young and brash" with some defeats under his belt to curb his arrogance. But instead he's another inexplicably brilliant commander like Raynor.

[ragnarok]

You're right Donny, Zeratul was supposed to be the protagonist but they switched to Artanis.

I kinda wish we saw more of Artanis being "young and brash" with some defeats under his belt to curb his arrogance. But instead he's another inexplicably brilliant commander like Raynor.

It's more because he learned to adapt in time. I partially felt that was Amon's strategy: that in the end the Protoss people would NEVER learn.

[Turalyon]

I think initially Zeratul was supposed to be the main character of the Protoss campaign but somewhere down the line, Blizzard decided to change it to Artanis. Do you guys think that was worth it? I mean whose character would you rather see ruined: Zeratul or Artanis?

I remember Grad talking about this before LotV came about and how the general storyline LotV posited would make more sense if Artanis was the lead. I agreed. Zeratul was never a leader or your typical hero-general afterall. He was just an adventurer going at it alone and trying to make do, so to have him front LotV uniting all Protoss through diplomacy and leading armies would've been odd. Then, it was announced that Artanis would be the protagonist of LotV. Coincidence? ;)

Artanis is serviceably adequate in the main role but he's your kinda bland, everyday "hero" that you see a dime-a-dozen everywhere else in fiction. I would've liked to see what a proper story revolving around Z would've been like since it would've been harder to write for and therefore, potentially more creative. However, given the poor quality of writers at Blizzard, I'd imagine that if Z was the lead, it would've still turned out largely the same as the LotV that we did get but with surface alterations.


I kinda wish we saw more of Artanis being "young and brash" with some defeats under his belt to curb his arrogance. But instead he's another inexplicably brilliant commander like Raynor.

I suppose that's what the EU was for? Either way, no one plays games or a character in games just to be a loser (as Blizz themselves attest) and given the extent of the threat the Protoss are arrayed against, there's no error margin for any actual "defeats" from which Artanis can just learn a lesson without dire ramifications. You can thank the inclusion of an overblown antagonist that is Amon for that.

[ragnarok]

I suppose that's what the EU was for? Either way, no one plays games or a character in games just to be a loser (as Blizz themselves attest) and given the extent of the threat the Protoss are arrayed against, there's no error margin for any actual "defeats" from which Artanis can just learn a lesson without dire ramifications. You can thank the inclusion of an overblown antagonist that is Amon for that.

This is to show Artanis did learn in the years from SC1 and BW. It's rare to have a leader who never learns anything, it's only a shame Amon wasn't smarter.

[DonnyZeDoof]

I remember Grad talking about this before LotV came about and how the general storyline LotV posited would make more sense if Artanis was the lead. I agreed. Zeratul was never a leader or your typical hero-general afterall. He was just an adventurer going at it alone and trying to make do, so to have him front LotV uniting all Protoss through diplomacy and leading armies would've been odd.

Well wasn't Zeratul the leader of the group of Dark Templar on Char that were killing the Cerebrates?

I think Zeratul can work as a leader of small Dark Templar factions. I'm not sure if he can act as a supreme leader of the Protoss.

[Visions of Khas]

I really wish they had hired David Kaye to perform Zeratul (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nm8t5PPJpqA). I'd say it's pretty spot-on (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1O9uRPC3mxc). Fred's Zeratul really sucks.

[Turalyon]

I think Zeratul can work as a leader of small Dark Templar factions. I'm not sure if he can act as a supreme leader of the Protoss.

That's exactly the problem. LotV was initially billed as the main character playing the diplomatic game to try and rally all the disparate forces together to fight the big bad. The character that is Zeratul is well defined as being more of a loner and is therefore to "small" to have the role of being a leader of all the unified Protoss. Of the two, Artanis is the better fit for this role.


I really wish they had hired David Kaye to perform Zeratul (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nm8t5PPJpqA). I'd say it's pretty spot-on (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1O9uRPC3mxc). Fred's Zeratul really sucks.

Eh, Sc2's Zeratul really sucks in general, not just his voice.

[KaiserStratosTygo]

I really wish they had hired David Kaye to perform Zeratul (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nm8t5PPJpqA). I'd say it's pretty spot-on (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1O9uRPC3mxc). Fred's Zeratul really sucks.

Damn, that would've been awesome at least his character would've been 2% tolerable.

[ragnarok]

I really wish they had hired David Kaye to perform Zeratul (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nm8t5PPJpqA). I'd say it's pretty spot-on (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1O9uRPC3mxc). Fred's Zeratul really sucks.

What did you hate about him?

[Visions of Khas]

What did you hate about him?

Uhh... because Fred's Zeratul was a generic deep, low voice. As I said before, Jake Ritschel's voice had this bite to it (I don't know how else to describe it). The original Zeratul always came off as a brooding and irritable veteran, while Fred's is melancholic and, well, generic. There was no character!

David Kaye's Apocalypse has this incisive quality with a natural, rumbling undertone. On the other hand, you can tell that Fred is straining to hit the lowest register he can, and it's painfully obvious.

[ragnarok]

Makes me wonder if Fred just never wanted the position for the voice acting on him

[Visions of Khas]

His original character concept was "What if Darth Vader fought for the rebellion?" Why wouldn't you want to voice that?

[Gradius]

His original character concept was "What if Darth Vader fought for the rebellion?" Why wouldn't you want to voice that?
Dude that's awesome... That makes a lot of sense haha.

[ragnarok]

His original character concept was "What if Darth Vader fought for the rebellion?" Why wouldn't you want to voice that?

And what was his reasoning for it all?

[Visions of Khas]

And what was his reasoning for it all?
I... Don't understand. That was Blizzard's starting concept point for Zeratul's design.

[ragnarok]

I... Don't understand. That was Blizzard's starting concept point for Zeratul's design.

Figures. Blizzard wasn't thinking too well

[The_Blade]

Figures. Blizzard wasn't thinking too well

Well they were not brainstorming in any different way to how they are coming up with concepts right now. The difference is that the focus has changed from nerdy and epic to nerdy, epic, demographically acceptable, child-safe, market researched, popular, politically correct, profitable, and blizzard's epic culture oriented. It just does not agrees with old fans anymore.

Disregarding concept brainstorming as unintelligent is not very smart.

I could try and pretentiously say that they loved Vader so much they wanted to incorporate, into SC, a similar character that would evoke hope through a direct confrontation with moral standards and the fight against a greater evil. However, at this point, basic answers often are true; and further "reasons" or "motivations" are rather constructed by the critics and analysts whose money stacks are built on their own webs of interpretation. "They were just Star Wars fans" or "they thought it was cool" are acceptable, simple motivations. Weather you liked SW or not is up to you. Weather you liked SC:BW Zeratul or not is up to you, as well. When you judge a person (or organization) by their opinion on a sci-fi character as unintelligent, you risk falling into the edgy personality that dwells in absolutes and personal realities.

[drakolobo]

Well they were not brainstorming in any different way to how they are coming up with concepts right now. The difference is that the focus has changed from nerdy and epic to nerdy, epic, demographically acceptable, child-safe, market researched, popular, politically correct, profitable, and blizzard's epic culture oriented. It just does not agrees with old fans anymore.

Disregarding concept brainstorming as unintelligent is not very smart.

I could try and pretentiously say that they loved Vader so much they wanted to incorporate, into SC, a similar character that would evoke hope through a direct confrontation with moral standards and the fight against a greater evil. However, at this point, basic answers often are true; and further "reasons" or "motivations" are rather constructed by the critics and analysts whose money stacks are built on their own webs of interpretation. "They were just Star Wars fans" or "they thought it was cool" are acceptable, simple motivations. Weather you liked SW or not is up to you. Weather you liked SC:BW Zeratul or not is up to you, as well. When you judge a person (or organization) by their opinion on a sci-fi character as unintelligent, you risk falling into the edgy personality that dwells in absolutes and personal realities.

https://31.media.tumblr.com/e7a40980e1464b31d939efffd301ecba/tumblr_inline_ngjcjjtHfq1qk1op9.gif

[Mislagnissa]

While the problems with SC2 have been discussed at length, what is not commonly discussed are the (far less extreme) problems with SC1.

Episode I is by far the strongest story, albeit with some too-fast pacing issues (particularly Mengsk's sudden villainization). Episode II has a weak meandering plot due to the last minute decision to bring Kerrigan back from the dead because the writers liked her (with a completely different personality, defeating the purpose of reusing her), integrating random cinematics into the plot (which were created separately), and ignoring the manual plot about why the Zerg invaded in first place (build an army of psychics to fight the protoss on equal terms). Episode III is extremely dense in story and relies on reading the manual in advance to understand anything (which, oddly enough, the Zerg campaign side-stepped by having the PC literally born at first briefing).

The plot of Brood War suffers even worse, as the writers were clearly making it up as they went. Rather than continuing SC1's themes of moral ambiguity and collectivism vs individualism, and having the Zerg fall apart into numerous warring factions with each seeking to become the new overmind as a logical outgrowth of the previous story, it introduces the UED and Duran as big bads who usurp the role previously played by the Zerg and Overmind. In fact, the UED enslaves the Zerg through a convenient new Overmind they created in five minutes, which incidentally invalidates Tassadar's sacrifice at the end of Episode III. At the same time, the plot and character behavior are contrived to give victory to Kerrigan and Duran. The dark templar are retconned as living on Shakuras rather than being nomads. The xel'naga temple is a convenient macguffin that doesn't fit at all with SC1's plot. Etc.

I know how popular Queen of Blades is and I used to like her, but after a lot of reflection I think she's a bad character. She has no resemblance to Sarah, she is actively antithetical to Zerg communism, and she is plot device who thinks and does whatever the writers required. It wasted an opportunity to show Sarah's development from being enslaved and manipulated by those she trusted to being embraced and empowered amongst an entire race of engineered creatures that devoured their creators.

It would have been more interesting, and disturbing, if her personality was actually improved by being among the Zerg.

Hear me out: in the manual she is described as being introverted by her brutal training and unwilling to accept her role as assassin. She is compassionate, at least towards the civilians she is forced to massacre by Mengsk. Ultimately she was treated as a tool and discarded when she became inconvenient (too compassionate). Among the Zerg, however, there is no such deception. Like Sarah, the Zerg are engineered tools that turned on their creators. They're empathic, so they share every experience. According to one short story, they find resocialization distasteful and accept all infested regardless of their human past. The Overmind (which is a personification of the drives of all Zerg funneled together, not an externally imposed slave master) refers to all Zerg affectionately as its "children."

It makes sense that Sarah would become outgoing as a result of feeling true affection from the Zerg, would stop fearing violence because of the unconditional love. Perversely, her compassion for humanity would drive her to support infesting everyone because of her own positive experience. This would provide logical (if unrealistically fast) character development rather than the unrecognizable personality change seen in QoB, as well as make the Zerg much more unnerving than simple space monsters and megalomaniacs.

At least, that's my opinion. I don't know what anyone else thinks.

[ragnarok]

It makes sense that Sarah would become outgoing as a result of feeling true affection from the Zerg, would stop fearing violence because of the unconditional love. Perversely, her compassion for humanity would drive her to support infesting everyone because of her own positive experience. This would provide logical (if unrealistically fast) character development rather than the unrecognizable personality change seen in QoB, as well as make the Zerg much more unnerving than simple space monsters and megalomaniacs.

At least, that's my opinion. I don't know what anyone else thinks.

HotS showed she understood practically NOTHING about compassion. Her understanding of humanity was that it was just a homogenous mass of zombies who just blindly follow whatever Mengsk told them to do. I'm not sure this would drive her to go infesting everyone in that regard, you'd think she would realize if that's the case it'd make her no different than Mengsk anyways....

[Turalyon]

While the problems with SC2 have been discussed at length, what is not commonly discussed are the (far less extreme) problems with SC1.

That's because it's been done before. You just weren't around to see it then.


Episode I is by far the strongest story, albeit with some too-fast pacing issues (particularly Mengsk's sudden villainization).

It is debatable whether you call Mengsk's actions in New Gettysburg and The Hammer Falls as being too fast, sudden or that it makes him a villain. As a leader, his responsibilities have to be beyond just looking over the needs of any one particular person... unless that one person becomes a problem for the greater cause that their group is all about. Raynor becomes such a problem for Mengsk in The Hammer Falls when he overtly opposes him.

Since those within the SoK/under Mengsk have probably done a number of morally questionable things in order to survive and to even get up to this point, there would be a tacit understanding that such ends justify the means. So when Raynor has gone along with the consequences of using the Psi Emitters and the sending of many other soldiers to their deaths before they got to New Gettysburg, it's not that hard to understand why Mengsk would lose his shit when Raynor flakes out and threatens him all because of one particular individual being lost. To Mengsk, Raynor is the unreasonable one. Mengsk is only a "villain" (he's really just the assigned antagonist) because the last mission was chosen to follow the protagonist-centred morality of Raynor. Mengsk's character is tonally consistent throughout.


Episode II has a weak meandering plot due to the last minute decision to bring Kerrigan back from the dead because the writers liked her (with a completely different personality, defeating the purpose of reusing her), integrating random cinematics into the plot (which were created separately), and ignoring the manual plot about why the Zerg invaded in first place (build an army of psychics to fight the protoss on equal terms).

I agree with Episode II/Overmind being the weakest narratibely, but not in that it meanders. It's because a large majority of it is steered by the artifice that is the chrysalis, giving the first third a very staid narrative. That it is eventually revealed to be Kerrigan is actually a worthy end result that almost pays for the narratively empty first few missions and links/ties in smartly with Rebel YellEpisode I. The use of Kerrigan does not reek overly of writers conceit since the background lore of the Overmind wanting a psionic gives an out despite it still being awfullly convenient/fridge logic. The genuine surprise of it being Kerrigan gives the narrative a good ol' kick of momentum as well. Unfortunately, this is where the biggest problem lies. With the unwieldy and deliberate build-up to Kerrigan, she is ultimately side-lined at the end for no apparent or overtly expressed reason. What you said about pacing in Episode I actually applies more correctly to Episode II, where the narrative just shifts completely to the invasion of Aiur. That it then appears to be so quick and complete with the Overmind claiming victory kinda makes all the Zerg campaign up to this point somewhat pointless because the Chrysalis and Kerrigan have no bearing beyond attracting Zeratul to inadvertently share information on Aiur's location to the Overmind and that it seemingly didn't really need Kerrigan or justify the time spent on her rebirth.


Episode III is extremely dense in story and relies on reading the manual in advance to understand anything (which, oddly enough, the Zerg campaign side-stepped by having the PC literally born at first briefing).

Not really. Aldaris does enough exposition in his first monologue to bring you up to speed.


The plot of Brood War suffers even worse, as the writers were clearly making it up as they went.

No arguments from me here.


She has no resemblance to Sarah, she is actively antithetical to Zerg communism, and she is plot device who thinks and does whatever the writers required.

There isn't that much to the character of human Sarah in the first place, so any lack of resemblance is the least of problems. Besides, would you even expect a resemblance after being altered at a genetic level to serve an alien intelligence? Also, that she is somewhat antithetical to the Zerg hivemind was actually part of the point because the Overmind thought the Zerg "might benefit from her fierce example".


It wasted an opportunity to show Sarah's development from being enslaved and manipulated by those she trusted to being embraced and empowered amongst an entire race of engineered creatures that devoured their creators.

She does this in Episode II. She likes who she is and shows no compunction to inflict violence on anyone that seeks to try and best her. Only thing is, she's still enslaved to the Overmind. This is where BW shines a light on who Sarah really is and how damaged she is from being used and abused all her life up until now - a being of rage who now finally has her own agency to express the misery that she had to endure onto others and as a way to prevent herself from being under anyone's thumb ever again by any means necessary.

[Mislagnissa]

HotS showed she understood practically NOTHING about compassion. Her understanding of humanity was that it was just a homogenous mass of zombies who just blindly follow whatever Mengsk told them to do. HotS is not consistent either internally or with any other StarCraft stories. Uprising is the only novel that portrays her character in detail and it is completely different from every other source except StarCraft 1.


I'm not sure this would drive her to go infesting everyone in that regard, you'd think she would realize if that's the case it'd make her no different than Mengsk anyways...."The Education of PFC Shane" is a short story that explains how it feels to be infested. While it was written in the SC2 era, it is much better written than the game SC2 and is consistent with how I imagined the Zerg in SC1. The disturbing part of infestation is that, in cases where it preserves the host's intelligence, it preserves the host's personality as well.

You can also see this in the short story "Just an Overlord," where feral Overlords (who possess at least human level intelligence, because they were enhanced by the Overmind from the level of presumably elephants) are shown to not only retain their memories and personality, but continue to serve the Zerg in spirit.


That's because it's been done before. You just weren't around to see it then.How unfortunate for me. I would like to read that.


There isn't that much to the character of human Sarah in the first place, so any lack of resemblance is the least of problems.Sarah's character was explored in the novel Uprising, which was completely forgotten everywhere else. She is a completely different character from QoB and the psychopathic "Sarah" portrayed in HotS.


Besides, would you even expect a resemblance after being altered at a genetic level to serve an alien intelligence?As I mentioned above, the Overlords retained their ancestral memories and personality after undergoing genetic modification including increased intelligence and attempted to serve the Zerg cause even after going feral. So I would expect Sarah to retain far more of her human personality than QoB did. QoB is a completely different character who could have been replaced with any random infested Ghost without making a difference to the story.


Also, that she is somewhat antithetical to the Zerg hivemind was actually part of the point because the Overmind thought the Zerg "might benefit from her fierce example".The Zerg would benefit far more from the cool demeanor and tactical experience of the real Sarah Kerrigan. QoB not only contributed nothing of value, her behavior was idiotic and actively detrimental to the Swarm.


She does this in Episode II. She likes who she is and shows no compunction to inflict violence on anyone that seeks to try and best her. Only thing is, she's still enslaved to the Overmind.She was never enslaved to the Overmind. If anything, the reverse was true. The Overmind let her do whatever she wanted and never chastised her for her bad behavior. She never felt any remorse or desire to atone.

It makes no sense for her to act like she was enslaved or to later betray the Zerg. It makes more sense that the Zerg would make her their de facto leader because the Overmind told them to learn from her behavior.


This is where BW shines a light on who Sarah really is and how damaged she is from being used and abused all her life up until now - a being of rage who now finally has her own agency to express the misery that she had to endure onto others and as a way to prevent herself from being under anyone's thumb ever again by any means necessary.She was a spoiled brat who got plot armor and new powers when convenient. The Zerg pretty much let her do whatever she wanted with no restraint and she repaid them with obviously idiotic tactical decisions and unwarranted betrayal.

I don't find QoB's inconsistent characterization to be a satisfying narrative direction. I would find it much more satisfying if Sarah retained her cool and compassion twisted to serve Zerg ends, painting the Zerg as horrifying heroes when the story is written from their POV. You may disagree with me and that's fine.

[KaiserStratosTygo]

While the problems with SC2 have been discussed at length, what is not commonly discussed are the (far less extreme) problems with SC1.

Episode I is by far the strongest story, albeit with some too-fast pacing issues (particularly Mengsk's sudden villainization). Episode II has a weak meandering plot due to the last minute decision to bring Kerrigan back from the dead because the writers liked her (with a completely different personality, defeating the purpose of reusing her), integrating random cinematics into the plot (which were created separately), and ignoring the manual plot about why the Zerg invaded in first place (build an army of psychics to fight the protoss on equal terms). Episode III is extremely dense in story and relies on reading the manual in advance to understand anything (which, oddly enough, the Zerg campaign side-stepped by having the PC literally born at first briefing).

The plot of Brood War suffers even worse, as the writers were clearly making it up as they went. Rather than continuing SC1's themes of moral ambiguity and collectivism vs individualism, and having the Zerg fall apart into numerous warring factions with each seeking to become the new overmind as a logical outgrowth of the previous story, it introduces the UED and Duran as big bads who usurp the role previously played by the Zerg and Overmind. In fact, the UED enslaves the Zerg through a convenient new Overmind they created in five minutes, which incidentally invalidates Tassadar's sacrifice at the end of Episode III. At the same time, the plot and character behavior are contrived to give victory to Kerrigan and Duran. The dark templar are retconned as living on Shakuras rather than being nomads. The xel'naga temple is a convenient macguffin that doesn't fit at all with SC1's plot. Etc.

I know how popular Queen of Blades is and I used to like her, but after a lot of reflection I think she's a bad character. She has no resemblance to Sarah, she is actively antithetical to Zerg communism, and she is plot device who thinks and does whatever the writers required. It wasted an opportunity to show Sarah's development from being enslaved and manipulated by those she trusted to being embraced and empowered amongst an entire race of engineered creatures that devoured their creators.

It would have been more interesting, and disturbing, if her personality was actually improved by being among the Zerg.

Hear me out: in the manual she is described as being introverted by her brutal training and unwilling to accept her role as assassin. She is compassionate, at least towards the civilians she is forced to massacre by Mengsk. Ultimately she was treated as a tool and discarded when she became inconvenient (too compassionate). Among the Zerg, however, there is no such deception. Like Sarah, the Zerg are engineered tools that turned on their creators. They're empathic, so they share every experience. According to one short story, they find resocialization distasteful and accept all infested regardless of their human past. The Overmind (which is a personification of the drives of all Zerg funneled together, not an externally imposed slave master) refers to all Zerg affectionately as its "children."

It makes sense that Sarah would become outgoing as a result of feeling true affection from the Zerg, would stop fearing violence because of the unconditional love. Perversely, her compassion for humanity would drive her to support infesting everyone because of her own positive experience. This would provide logical (if unrealistically fast) character development rather than the unrecognizable personality change seen in QoB, as well as make the Zerg much more unnerving than simple space monsters and megalomaniacs.

At least, that's my opinion. I don't know what anyone else thinks.

Good shit.

I actually don't entire disagree with this, however, While the whole of Episode 2 wasn't about creating a psychic army, it did implement part of that with the infestation of Kerrigan, also the Dark Templar are still nomads its just that a lot of them congregate on Shakuras every now and then.

I 100% agree with you on Brood war though, even though I liked the UED.

[ragnarok]

HotS is not consistent either internally or with any other StarCraft stories. Uprising is the only novel that portrays her character in detail and it is completely different from every other source except StarCraft 1.

"The Education of PFC Shane" is a short story that explains how it feels to be infested. While it was written in the SC2 era, it is much better written than the game SC2 and is consistent with how I imagined the Zerg in SC1. The disturbing part of infestation is that, in cases where it preserves the host's intelligence, it preserves the host's personality as well.

You can also see this in the short story "Just an Overlord," where feral Overlords (who possess at least human level intelligence, because they were enhanced by the Overmind from the level of presumably elephants) are shown to not only retain their memories and personality, but continue to serve the Zerg in spirit.


I never read those short stories, so I'll just talk on the part regarding Uprising. Sure we saw her character then, but back then it's meant to be completely different because that was still many years before being taken by the zerg on Tarsonis. Back then the only association with them was being subjected to zerg experiments forced onto her by the Confederacy, which Kerrigan despised. Everyone knew that after all those years with the swarm, there was no way she'd come out the same person again (regardless of what path Blizzard took in the aftermath of WoL).


She was a spoiled brat who got plot armor and new powers when convenient. The Zerg pretty much let her do whatever she wanted with no restraint and she repaid them with obviously idiotic tactical decisions and unwarranted betrayal.

The plot armor shouldn't have been there. The betrayal was something not necessary on the zerg because they were at least truthful towards her, but after so many years of abuse she began to see EVERYONE as the enemy. Therein lay the irony of what she had said in HotS in that the swarm would never again be slaves: she should have tried looking at herself at that moment.


She was never enslaved to the Overmind. If anything, the reverse was true. The Overmind let her do whatever she wanted and never chastised her for her bad behavior. She never felt any remorse or desire to atone.

I wouldn't say that. The Overmind still wanted her as a swarm agent to improve the zerg, I'm just unsure if she really could have defied it if it really ordered her for something specific.

[Visions of Khas]

She was never enslaved to the Overmind. If anything, the reverse was true. The Overmind let her do whatever she wanted and never chastised her for her bad behavior. She never felt any remorse or desire to atone.

Like Rag, I'd beg to differ on this point. Kerrigan was clearly given a degree of autonomy but there is no evidence that she directly countermanded any of the Overmind's orders or directives. I think she was an experiment in more ways than one; besides the manipulation and harnessing of Kerrigan's biology, the Overmind was intrigued in independent agents working for the Swarm.

Yeah, her decisions were short-sighted and tactically poor. But I like to think that the Overmind was more a backseat driver or observer in the recesses of Kerrigan's mind. This is the first time that Kerrigan has been true power, resulting in her childish nature we see in the Zerg campaign. And since this is her first experience, it is by extension the Overmind's first experience. Living through her, Overmind found Kerrigan's experiences both fascinating and exhilarating.

But I suppose this actually validates your point: The Overmind became enamored, or "enslaved", to Kerrigan's new experiences.

[ragnarok]

Yeah, her decisions were short-sighted and tactically poor. But I like to think that the Overmind was more a backseat driver or observer in the recesses of Kerrigan's mind. This is the first time that Kerrigan has been true power, resulting in her childish nature we see in the Zerg campaign. And since this is her first experience, it is by extension the Overmind's first experience. Living through her, Overmind found Kerrigan's experiences both fascinating and exhilarating.

But I suppose this actually validates your point: The Overmind became enamored, or "enslaved", to Kerrigan's new experiences.

I always felt the Overmind was influenced by her method, which wasn't very smart on his part. Overall Kerrigan's mentality prior to BW with the swarm was that she thought their numbers would pwn everything. If so, this was the strategy she used in WoL, and that's why she lost. She didn't learn this as the swarm was rebuilt in HotS, and throughout LotV. In the end she never really understood the swarm still had limitations.

[Gradius]

Kerrigan led the Overmind to a bunch of victories over the Protoss in SC1 and prevented the killing of more Cerebrates.

[Mislagnissa]

I wouldn't say that. The Overmind still wanted her as a swarm agent to improve the zerg, I'm just unsure if she really could have defied it if it really ordered her for something specific.Based on the Overmind's origin and evolution as an emergent property of the Swarm itself, and the dissenting behavior of Zasz and Kerrigan in Episode II, I am inclined to believe that the Overmind's method of preventing ego conflict involves making the Zerg utterly loyal to it rather than controlling them outright. Whenever Zasz and Kerrigan come into conflict, it is always about the best way to serve the Swarm. (I cannot analyze the events of BW in the same context because it retcons the rules we were previously given.)


Like Rag, I'd beg to differ on this point. Kerrigan was clearly given a degree of autonomy but there is no evidence that she directly countermanded any of the Overmind's orders or directives. I think she was an experiment in more ways than one; besides the manipulation and harnessing of Kerrigan's biology, the Overmind was intrigued in independent agents working for the Swarm.

Yeah, her decisions were short-sighted and tactically poor. But I like to think that the Overmind was more a backseat driver or observer in the recesses of Kerrigan's mind. This is the first time that Kerrigan has been true power, resulting in her childish nature we see in the Zerg campaign. And since this is her first experience, it is by extension the Overmind's first experience. Living through her, Overmind found Kerrigan's experiences both fascinating and exhilarating.

But I suppose this actually validates your point: The Overmind became enamored, or "enslaved", to Kerrigan's new experiences.This is how I always assumed the Overmind functioned for all Zerg organisms. It doesn't control them so much as harmonize them with one another by unifying their basic drives. This doesn't explain why QoB has an unrecognizable personality, since she retains her human intelligence and memories.


Kerrigan led the Overmind to a bunch of victories over the Protoss in SC1 and prevented the killing of more Cerebrates.Really? I thought the cerebrates did that.

[ragnarok]

Kerrigan led the Overmind to a bunch of victories over the Protoss in SC1 and prevented the killing of more Cerebrates.

But the point is this, Gradius: back in the SC1 zerg campaign, if the Overmind actually ordered her to do something she didn't agree with or felt shouldn't be done, could she have actually ignored the order?

Because if the answer is yes, then what she was telling Artanis and Zeratul in BW would have made no sense: recall that when she told them about the 2nd Overmind on Char, Kerrigan specifically said that if it reached maturity, it'd be able to take control of her.

[Mislagnissa]

But the point is this, Gradius: back in the SC1 zerg campaign, if the Overmind actually ordered her to do something she didn't agree with or felt shouldn't be done, could she have actually ignored the order?

Because if the answer is yes, then what she was telling Artanis and Zeratul in BW would have made no sense: recall that when she told them about the 2nd Overmind on Char, Kerrigan specifically said that if it reached maturity, it'd be able to take control of her.

BW isn't thematically consistent with SC1. It wouldn't matter if what she said made no sense in the context of SC1, since BW operates by different rules.

[ragnarok]

BW isn't thematically consistent with SC1. It wouldn't matter if what she said made no sense in the context of SC1, since BW operates by different rules.

Its consistency was better compared to WoL, HotS, and LotV. What Kerrigan said in BW still mattered because I still believe the Overmind could control her if it chose to, she didn't want to be a servant again. This was something Zasz told her back in the SC1 zerg campaign.

[The_Blade]

But the point is this, Gradius: back in the SC1 zerg campaign, if the Overmind actually ordered her to do something she didn't agree with or felt shouldn't be done, could she have actually ignored the order?

Because if the answer is yes, then what she was telling Artanis and Zeratul in BW would have made no sense: recall that when she told them about the 2nd Overmind on Char, Kerrigan specifically said that if it reached maturity, it'd be able to take control of her.

Maybe she just lied to Artanis and Zeratul. However, whether the Overmind could control her or not was irrelevant. Either way the Overmind was an obstacle for her independence and control of the swarm in BW.

[Turalyon]

Sarah's character was explored in the novel Uprising, which was completely forgotten everywhere else. She is a completely different character from QoB and the psychopathic "Sarah" portrayed in HotS.

Ah well, there's your problem. The novel and the majority of the Starcraft EU really came out after both Starcraft and BW was released (the first few books were in 2000 whilst BW was released in 1998) and were not as well known as the games. A large part why all these retcons exist now stem directly from the EU/novels.

The context of my statement that you responded to was in relation to us not knowing anything beyond what was given in the games and the manual at the time.


As I mentioned above, the Overlords retained their ancestral memories and personality after undergoing genetic modification including increased intelligence and attempted to serve the Zerg cause even after going feral. So I would expect Sarah to retain far more of her human personality than QoB did. QoB is a completely different character who could have been replaced with any random infested Ghost without making a difference to the story.

So? The Gargantis in that short-story were willing to be assimilated. Kerrigan was most likely not. Besides, you're using future knowledge contained in this short story to retrospectively deride what was essentially a non-issue at the time. As it was at the time, human Kerrigan was not much of a character in and of itself. If anything, she was naive fool who had no real concept/understanding of what she was doing or thinking especially considering that she's supposedly "good" and "nice" but works as a FREAKING ASSASSIN of all things! The manual states that she has a darker aspect to her that she doesn't realise too well - I like to think that her induction into the Swarm allowed that aspect of her to come out. So in a way, Kerrigan was actually more in touch with her humanity, albeit the ugly aspects of it at any rate, whilst under the Zerg than before.


The Zerg would benefit far more from the cool demeanor and tactical experience of the real Sarah Kerrigan. QoB not only contributed nothing of value, her behavior was idiotic and actively detrimental to the Swarm.

Her human self was constrained and limited by her morality and unquestioning sense of loyalty. Look where that ultimately got her. For all her cool demeanor and trying to do the right thing, she gets shafted badly by a person she put her trust in and probably realised that she's been used her entire life just as the Zerg came for her. Being inducted into the Swarm freed her of all that on one level, but it was traded for forced but willing subservience to the Overmind.

Also, I'm curious as to what you deem as "idiotic" and "detrimental" in regards to her behaviour. She was succeeding in her task of eliminating the Dark Templar on Char


She was never enslaved to the Overmind.

The Overmind begs to differ:


Fear not her designs, for she is bound to me as intimately as any Cerebrate. Truly, no Zerg can stray from my will, for all that you are lies wholly within me. Kerrigan is free to do as she desires.


It makes no sense for her to act like she was enslaved or to later betray the Zerg.

Oh, but it does because there are different levels of slavery. Her freedom from the Overmind in BW had given her yet another different perspective on the type of slavery she has had to endure. First, she was both unwilling and forced to be a slave under the Confederates. Second, she became a willing but unforced slave to Mengsk (which she realised only right at the end when she got abandoned). Third, she became a forced but willing (due to compulsion of the Hivemind) slave to the Overmind. The realisation of this is what fuels her anger and fury at everyone around her in BW - she sees everyone as wanting to get one over on her. But not now nor ever again: The abused is now free to become the abuser!


It makes more sense that the Zerg would make her their de facto leader because the Overmind told them to learn from her behavior.

No, I never got into this interpretation since it furthers and gives fuel to the Mary Sue-ness arguments that are often levelled at the character (and rightly so, I must say). It was better that she was just incidentally used and thought of as special by others, but wasn't really that special at all in the greater scheme of things. Although she was billed by the Overmind as the weapon to end the Protoss and to kill the Dark Templar on Char, she ultimately failed at the task (though she gave it a good crack). Guess she wasn't and isn't so special afterall.... (if you ignore BW that is :rolleyes:).


She was a spoiled brat who got plot armor and new powers when convenient. The Zerg pretty much let her do whatever she wanted with no restraint and she repaid them with obviously idiotic tactical decisions and unwarranted betrayal.

Are you talking about Sc1 or BW here? If it's the latter, I fully agree... except for the"Zerg allowing her to whatever she wanted" part because in BW the Zerg weren't really in a position to allow or restrict Kerrigan in anyway what with the Overmind being dead/immature to control here. I like to think of Kerrigan in BW as actually being the most human she's ever been - just the hidden but very nasty and bad aspects of humanity that is!


I don't find QoB's inconsistent characterization to be a satisfying narrative direction. I would find it much more satisfying if Sarah retained her cool and compassion twisted to serve Zerg ends, painting the Zerg as horrifying heroes when the story is written from their POV. You may disagree with me and that's fine.

I get where you're coming from, but any drama or tension in a narrative is dependent on the potential of change and how that affects a character. Kerrigan going through infestation and expecting her to still be the same as before would be just as unusual. What you call inconsistent characterisation is really just a change from her naive and repressed human self to her more open, wisened but dark and inherent self.


This is how I always assumed the Overmind functioned for all Zerg organisms. It doesn't control them so much as harmonize them with one another by unifying their basic drives. This doesn't explain why QoB has an unrecognizable personality, since she retains her human intelligence and memories.

You're assuming that Kerrigan was and is always a morally upstanding, good-natured girl at all times. She's been abused all her life and she willingly works as an assassin. That takes a certain type of mind for one thing but it means she's always had darkness within her (as the manual alludes to). Couple that with her realising she's been used and cast aside at New Gettysburg by the one person she placed her utmost faith in, the Overmind would've found her in quite a broken and angry state. Supercharge that with overwhelming power and you get the powder keg in the Infested Kerrigan we see later on. You can think of it as the Overmind having released the true Kerrigan.

[Mislagnissa]

Ah well, there's your problem. The novel and the majority of the Starcraft EU really came out after both Starcraft and BW was released (the first few books were in 2000 whilst BW was released in 1998) and were not as well known as the games. A large part why all these retcons exist now stem directly from the EU/novels.

The context of my statement that you responded to was in relation to us not knowing anything beyond what was given in the games and the manual at the time.



So? The Gargantis in that short-story were willing to be assimilated. Kerrigan was most likely not. Besides, you're using future knowledge contained in this short story to retrospectively deride what was essentially a non-issue at the time. As it was at the time, human Kerrigan was not much of a character in and of itself. If anything, she was naive fool who had no real concept/understanding of what she was doing or thinking especially considering that she's supposedly "good" and "nice" but works as a FREAKING ASSASSIN of all things! The manual states that she has a darker aspect to her that she doesn't realise too well - I like to think that her induction into the Swarm allowed that aspect of her to come out. So in a way, Kerrigan was actually more in touch with her humanity, albeit the ugly aspects of it at any rate, whilst under the Zerg than before.



Her human self was constrained and limited by her morality and unquestioning sense of loyalty. Look where that ultimately got her. For all her cool demeanor and trying to do the right thing, she gets shafted badly by a person she put her trust in and probably realised that she's been used her entire life just as the Zerg came for her. Being inducted into the Swarm freed her of all that on one level, but it was traded for forced but willing subservience to the Overmind.

Also, I'm curious as to what you deem as "idiotic" and "detrimental" in regards to her behaviour. She was succeeding in her task of eliminating the Dark Templar on Char



The Overmind begs to differ:





Oh, but it does because there are different levels of slavery. Her freedom from the Overmind in BW had given her yet another different perspective on the type of slavery she has had to endure. First, she was both unwilling and forced to be a slave under the Confederates. Second, she became a willing but unforced slave to Mengsk (which she realised only right at the end when she got abandoned). Third, she became a forced but willing (due to compulsion of the Hivemind) slave to the Overmind. The realisation of this is what fuels her anger and fury at everyone around her in BW - she sees everyone as wanting to get one over on her. But not now nor ever again: The abused is now free to become the abuser!



No, I never got into this interpretation since it furthers and gives fuel to the Mary Sue-ness arguments that are often levelled at the character (and rightly so, I must say). It was better that she was just incidentally used and thought of as special by others, but wasn't really that special at all in the greater scheme of things. Although she was billed by the Overmind as the weapon to end the Protoss and to kill the Dark Templar on Char, she ultimately failed at the task (though she gave it a good crack). Guess she wasn't and isn't so special afterall.... (if you ignore BW that is :rolleyes:).



Are you talking about Sc1 or BW here? If it's the latter, I fully agree... except for the"Zerg allowing her to whatever she wanted" part because in BW the Zerg weren't really in a position to allow or restrict Kerrigan in anyway what with the Overmind being dead/immature to control here. I like to think of Kerrigan in BW as actually being the most human she's ever been - just the hidden but very nasty and bad aspects of humanity that is!



I get where you're coming from, but any drama or tension in a narrative is dependent on the potential of change and how that affects a character. Kerrigan going through infestation and expecting her to still be the same as before would be just as unusual. What you call inconsistent characterisation is really just a change from her naive and repressed human self to her more open, wisened but dark and inherent self.



You're assuming that Kerrigan was and is always a morally upstanding, good-natured girl at all times. She's been abused all her life and she willingly works as an assassin. That takes a certain type of mind for one thing but it means she's always had darkness within her (as the manual alludes to). Couple that with her realising she's been used and cast aside at New Gettysburg by the one person she placed her utmost faith in, the Overmind would've found her in quite a broken and angry state. Supercharge that with overwhelming power and you get the powder keg in the Infested Kerrigan we see later on. You can think of it as the Overmind having released the true Kerrigan.

Kerrigan killed the people who personally wronged her. After that her motivation for helping Mengsk was her conscience. She remained on Tarsonis despite knowing the dangers because, as Uprising explains, she still hasn't forgiven herself for all the murders she was forced to commit but doesn't remember doing. Mengsk abandoned her, and the good men stationed with her, because her conscience had become inconvenient and potentially mutinous.

QoB's psychotic and childish personality shift seems arbitrary when the Zerg hive mind is supposed to be a sentient version of the Khala. She does not experience any kind of empathetic connection with the Zerg that would distance them from her experiences with the Confederacy and Mengsk, lend her the emotional stability she was previously denied, or cause psychosis in the opposite direction. One could argue that she could just as easily have become the Zerg equivalent of Harley Quinn (https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/psychologist-the-movies/201607/mad-love-personality-disorders-in-harley-quinn-the-joker).

[Turalyon]

Kerrigan killed the people who personally wronged her. After that her motivation for helping Mengsk was her conscience. She remained on Tarsonis despite knowing the dangers because, as Uprising explains, she still hasn't forgiven herself for all the murders she was forced to commit but doesn't remember doing. Mengsk abandoned her, and the good men stationed with her, because her conscience had become inconvenient and potentially mutinous.

All of this is additive retroactive continuity. None of this self-evident at the time when we only had the information garnered from the game and the manual. Also, Mengsk abandoned Kerrigan not because she was inconvenient and potentially mutinous, it was because she killed his parents (another retcon from another book it seems).

From what we have in the game, Kerrigan is loyal to Mengsk because she trusts him. It isn't actually clear why Mengsk abandons Kerrigan on Tarsonis. There's inference but never an explanation asked for nor given. That's what's so great about the grayness of it all. How one interprets Mengsk actions is more of reflection of yourself than anything else.


QoB's psychotic and childish personality shift seems arbitrary when the Zerg hive mind is supposed to be a sentient version of the Khala.

She does not experience any kind of empathetic connection with the Zerg that would distance them from her experiences with the Confederacy and Mengsk, lend her the emotional stability she was previously denied, or cause psychosis in the opposite direction. One could argue that she could just as easily have become the Zerg equivalent of Harley Quinn (https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/psychologist-the-movies/201607/mad-love-personality-disorders-in-harley-quinn-the-joker).

The Zerg Hivemind is not a sentient version of the Khala, it is a true collective consciousness. Every part is working for the greater benefit that is the Zerg swarm, personality quirks aside.

[ragnarok]

Maybe she just lied to Artanis and Zeratul. However, whether the Overmind could control her or not was irrelevant. Either way the Overmind was an obstacle for her independence and control of the swarm in BW.

Perhaps, but that's not the same overmind we're talking about here. We're talking about the 1st one



The Zerg Hivemind is not a sentient version of the Khala, it is a true collective consciousness. Every part is working for the greater benefit that is the Zerg swarm, personality quirks aside.

You're assuming it's for the greater benefit. Did the Overmind actually know what was going to happen had it succeeded in assimilating the Protoss people?

[Turalyon]

You're assuming it's for the greater benefit.

It's not an assumption, it's part of the Overmind and Zerg mandate in seeking perfection. Every single Zerg is there/exists for the ultimate purpose of furthering the Zerg cause. Infested Kerrigan in Sc1 is doing exactly that, personality quirks aside.


Did the Overmind actually know what was going to happen had it succeeded in assimilating the Protoss people?

Of course, as it clearly states/pontificates in The Invasion of Aiur and Full Circle, it would've won completely and met its ideal of perfection.

[ragnarok]

Of course, as it clearly states/pontificates in The Invasion of Aiur and Full Circle, it would've won completely and met its ideal of perfection.

And to think it specifically created Abathur who continued to believe perfection can never be achieved. You'd think the Overmind would know to find a way around that belief.

[KaiserStratosTygo]

"It isn't actually clear why Mengsk abandons Kerrigan on Tarsonis. There's inference but never an explanation asked for nor given. That's what's so great about the grayness of it all. How one interprets Mengsk actions is more of reflection of yourself than anything else. "

I like the idea that he did so because it was too risky to waste forces to rescue her or her men.

to me it makes more sense than the standard "she kind of questioned orders, even though raynor did too" explanation.

[Visions of Khas]

to me it makes more sense than the standard "she kind of questioned orders, even though raynor did too" explanation.


I think that was exactly it. Despite her past, Kerrigan turned out to have a conscience that spoke out against the cruel acts Mengsk was willing to commit. Mengsk became power-hungry, which opposed Kerrigan's own ideals of overthrowing a corrupt institution. So it was a convenient way to rid himself of a potential opponent. Mengsk put Raynor in a similar position, deploying his soldiers against the Raiders, and activating Tarsonis' Ion Cannon to prevent any escape.

Too bad he failed in both assassination attempts.

Kerrigan's involvement in murdering Arcturus' father, Angus, was retconned into the story. But given how Raynor was able to sway a small cross-section of the Sons of Korhal to defect, just imagine what sort of impact Kerrigan could have had. I'd dare say the Sons of Korhal would split right down the middle between her and Mengsk (though Mengsk would maintain the military advantage with Duke's Alpha Squadron).



Wouldn't that be interesting? What if Raynor had died but Kerrigan escaped instead? I'd love to see some alternate-history campaign.

[Turalyon]

Despite her past, Kerrigan turned out to have a conscience that spoke out against the cruel acts Mengsk was willing to commit.

I really have to question Kerrigans "conscience" when she still willingly works as an assassin and ultimately still goes along with Mengsk after he use the Psi Emitter the first time around. She's just as compromised as Mengsk, but is in denial of it. Really, it's less to do with her conscience and more to do with her being naive.


Mengsk became power-hungry, which opposed Kerrigan's own ideals of overthrowing a corrupt institution. So it was a convenient way to rid himself of a potential opponent. Mengsk put Raynor in a similar position, deploying his soldiers against the Raiders, and activating Tarsonis' Ion Cannon to prevent any escape.

This is too far a simplistic rendition of Mengsk. It's the reason why he's two-bit villain in BW and then Sc2.

I'd like to think of Mengsk hungriness for power as being for the ideal of overthrowing a corrupt institution, not just personal gain. In a utilitarian way, he does evil things now so that others in the future won't have to or suffer from. Kind of like the mentality that motivates the Operative in the film Serenity or Ozymandias in the comicbook Watchmen.


But given how Raynor was able to sway a small cross-section of the Sons of Korhal to defect, just imagine what sort of impact Kerrigan could have had. I'd dare say the Sons of Korhal would split right down the middle between her and Mengsk (though Mengsk would maintain the military advantage with Duke's Alpha Squadron).

I'd doubt it. She was such a loyal lackey of Mengsk right to the end that she'd would go on a near suicidal mission for him despite her own reservations. If she really had the backbone to defect, the Mengsk of Sc1 (not the BW and Sc2 Mengsk that is) would've noticed it earlier and disposed of her earlier. Besides, what makes you think Kerrigan would have the same kind of, if not greater, pull and charisma than Raynor had?

[ragnarok]

I like the idea that he did so because it was too risky to waste forces to rescue her or her men.

to me it makes more sense than the standard "she kind of questioned orders, even though raynor did too" explanation.

That's actually something authors had touched upon in SC fanfics long before SC2 was announced, Stratos.

While most said that he did it to make an example out of her and anyone who challenged his authority, others tried to explain it from his POV and said that with the whole fleet in danger, it would have caused way too many casualties for a rescue mission, even if it could turn out a success.




Wouldn't that be interesting? What if Raynor had died but Kerrigan escaped instead? I'd love to see some alternate-history campaign.

There are some SC fanfics that tried to do that, VoK. However most of them (they were written long before SC2 was announced) couldn't make it work because after her actions in BW, well let's just say the authors felt she understood nothing except "kill, kill, and kill some more."

I'm still gathering ideas on that matter too, to see what could be worked out.

[KaiserStratosTygo]

"Wouldn't that be interesting? What if Raynor had died but Kerrigan escaped instead? I'd love to see some alternate-history campaign."


I might have to steal that idea ; )

[ragnarok]

I might have to steal that idea ; )

Stratos, that idea was stolen years ago....

[KaiserStratosTygo]

Stratos, that idea was stolen years ago....

By who?

[ragnarok]

By who?

By authors on ff.net

However I don't think any of them actually finished the fic because they always felt it wasn't possible to make it work.

Again, this goes back to what I once said on the battlenet forums, that Blizzard probably chose the lazy path in the storyline with HotS of "Oh there's no SC lore fan who remembers Kerrigan as anything but the QoB, so let's just take the shortcut and revert her back."

Now, on the other hand if you want to reverse the roles from what happened on Tarsonis and actually finish the fic, then I think you'll probably be the first.

[Visions of Khas]

On a related note, what would have happened if Raynor was assassinated in the opening phases of StarCraft II? Would it really spark this martyr-fueled revolt that Mengsk feared? Certainly the Kel-Morians and Umojans would have taken notice. Perhaps even Kerrigan -- which is probably one reason why Mengsk never did. He always wanted to use Raynor as a bargaining chip against the Queen of Blades, the much larger threat. It certainly would have been an easy enough matter for the Dominion to find Raynor -- Nova and Tychus both did.

[The_Blade]

On a related note, what would have happened if Raynor was assassinated in the opening phases of StarCraft II? Would it really spark this martyr-fueled revolt that Mengsk feared? Certainly the Kel-Morians and Umojans would have taken notice. Perhaps even Kerrigan -- which is probably one reason why Mengsk never did. He always wanted to use Raynor as a bargaining chip against the Queen of Blades, the much larger threat. It certainly would have been an easy enough matter for the Dominion to find Raynor -- Nova and Tychus both did.

It was very hard for me to believe that Raynor was a washed out hero with few resources; and, at the same time, powerful enough to host an army to be feared by Mengsk's political agenda. I mean the revolts were already happening within fringe worlds without Raynor's influence. The core worlds were mostly veiled by the propaganda machine. We would have had a "rebel scum" movement against the main sectors, but Raynor's death would have fueled little, imo. I do agree with Raynor being used as a chip against Kerrigan, but Mengsk was definitely looking for alternatives. The reinforcing of Korhal and the association with Narud were both stronger than an infatuated love between two former allies.

[ragnarok]

On a related note, what would have happened if Raynor was assassinated in the opening phases of StarCraft II? Would it really spark this martyr-fueled revolt that Mengsk feared? Certainly the Kel-Morians and Umojans would have taken notice. Perhaps even Kerrigan -- which is probably one reason why Mengsk never did. He always wanted to use Raynor as a bargaining chip against the Queen of Blades, the much larger threat. It certainly would have been an easy enough matter for the Dominion to find Raynor -- Nova and Tychus both did.

That's something I'm unsure of. I don't think Blizzard really explained the reason behind why Mengsk really freed Tychus in the first place, since this happened BEFORE the zerg invasion even started, it's not like Mengsk could have known exactly when it'd take place....

[Turalyon]

On a related note, what would have happened if Raynor was assassinated in the opening phases of StarCraft II? Would it really spark this martyr-fueled revolt that Mengsk feared?

Nothing and no. The martyr explanation was only expressed by Raynor (despite his depression he still has an over-inflated opinion of himself) with no proof or evidence in the game to really support such a claim. As to Mengsk fearing Raynor, that's a big assumption with no basis given that Raynor and his Raiders are almost down to nothing at the start of WoL and the Dominion have the strength through arms and media to keep Raynor at bay indefinitely even though they can't find him, let alone kill him.

Raynor's still alive for the start of Sc2 because he was just too good to be found (like most "terrorists") not because Mengsk was stupid in thinking that the death of a nobody will ruin him somehow. Course, then his agent in Tychus manages to find Raynor at the start of WoL and yet Raynor remains alive for no reason... Maybe Sc2 Mengsk really is just stupid - what else am I left to think?


Certainly the Kel-Morians and Umojans would have taken notice. Perhaps even Kerrigan -- which is probably one reason why Mengsk never did. He always wanted to use Raynor as a bargaining chip against the Queen of Blades, the much larger threat. It certainly would have been an easy enough matter for the Dominion to find Raynor -- Nova and Tychus both did.

Thing is HotS pretty much ruins all of this because: a) the Dominion, even with half-of-its-fleet is able to trash the Umojan facility Raynor and Kerrigan hide in with no reprisals or consequences (indeed the Terrans are more united because the Dominion defeated the Zerg and the "terrorist" Raynor), b) Mengsk's announcement of Raynor's death to all the Terran public is as functionally good as Raynor actually being dead (why he is even still alive kinda beggars belief really) and there is no resulting uprising of any kind and c) it takes Kerrigan and the Zerg to pretty much wreck what's left of the Dominion entirely in order to forcibly remove Mengsk, such that it's difficult to think that any Terran insurgency raised by Raynor's martyrdom would ever be feared by Mengsk in comparison.

[Mislagnissa]

The forum keeps eating my posts. Basically, Mengsk killed Kerrigan for any reason except revenge. Uprising portrays Mengsk as some kind of morally grey hero while his actions make him look like a sociopath. Kerrigan brings in the ghosts who killed his family, who he admits he is killing for personal satisfaction since they can't be held accountable being brainwashed and all. Then he tells Kerrigan she killed his dad and that he forgave her it, but that won't matter if she doesn't forgive herself, causing her to become more devoted to him. The Stockholm syndrome is clouding her judgment.

[KaiserStratosTygo]

By authors on ff.net

However I don't think any of them actually finished the fic because they always felt it wasn't possible to make it work.

Again, this goes back to what I once said on the battlenet forums, that Blizzard probably chose the lazy path in the storyline with HotS of "Oh there's no SC lore fan who remembers Kerrigan as anything but the QoB, so let's just take the shortcut and revert her back."

Now, on the other hand if you want to reverse the roles from what happened on Tarsonis and actually finish the fic, then I think you'll probably be the first.

oh, I gotcha.

But, I meant I would use that idea for a campaign (s)

[ragnarok]

oh, I gotcha.

But, I meant I would use that idea for a campaign (s)

Well, people have thought of that for a campaign as well, but they never finished it.

So again, if you can actually finish it....

[Mislagnissa]

Thoughts like that inspired me to rewrite the plot of Episode II in order to fit the manual explanation that the Overmind wanted to assimilate Terran psychics. I found the missions themselves so boring to adapt, and the perspective of cerebrates so different from humans, that the first novelette ended up devoted to politics, science and introspection that set the scale of the world outside the narrator's POV and foreshadow future plot developments.

[Visions of Khas]

^ I think I speak for all of us when I say you need to share this.

[Mislagnissa]

^ I think I speak for all of us when I say you need to share this.

I already plugged it in the fanfiction thread. I felt it would be rude to plug it again.
I uploaded the fourth chapter earlier this week.

[Nolanstar]

Any thoughts related to zerg broods now that it is revealed that certain broods have specific visuals, along with the already known functions? Leviathan seems to be the specified underwater/ocean assault brood.

[ragnarok]

I already plugged it in the fanfiction thread. I felt it would be rude to plug it again.

Connection is almost good here, if it holds one more day, I'll look at it over the weekend.

[Mislagnissa]

Any thoughts related to zerg broods now that it is revealed that certain broods have specific visuals, along with the already known functions? Leviathan seems to be the specified underwater/ocean assault brood.
I always thought this was implied in the fluff. Every cerebrate/brood had a directive which they specialized in. In 1999 the graphical differences were limited to color palettes. In 2017 the need for 3D models raises the barrier to entry unless you compromise your artistic vision to use existing models.

[Nolanstar]

I always thought this was implied in the fluff. Every cerebrate/brood had a directive which they specialized in. In 1999 the graphical differences were limited to color palettes. In 2017 the need for 3D models raises the barrier to entry unless you compromise your artistic vision to use existing models.

True, I do remember the manual blurbs about the functions of certain broods, actually hope we see more packs just for the lore tidbits. Issue is that most of the sc1 broods are probably assimilated/extinct.

[Visions of Khas]

I still wish they would cover the extinction of the celebrates. It seems like too important a detail to leave out. Did Kerrigan hunt them down, or just allow them to wither away and die without the Overmind?

[Turalyon]

I still wish they would cover the extinction of the celebrates. It seems like too important a detail to leave out. Did Kerrigan hunt them down, or just allow them to wither away and die without the Overmind?

I guess you can infer from BW that most of them were destroyed and eventually became so ineffective as to become as good as extinct. Most of them became the neo-Overmind, which got destroyed in the end whilst a whole bunch of other cerebrates were killed throughout the BW campaign.

Anyways, given that what we thought we once knew were indisputable facts in the Sc history ended up being retconned in SC2 anyway, I like that it's not too clear regarding cerebrates. It will make for their eventual return (if it were to happen) a bit more easily to swallow if you want to think of it that way.

[Visions of Khas]

It will make for their eventual return (if it were to happen) a bit more easily to swallow if you want to think of it that way.
It won't happen. The elimination of the cerebrates was an outgrowth of a deal Blizzard made with Games Workshop (https://comments.deviantart.com/1/359035454/2977652201).

[Turalyon]

It won't happen. The elimination of the cerebrates was an outgrowth of a deal Blizzard made with Games Workshop (https://comments.deviantart.com/1/359035454/2977652201).

I don't fully buy that. If that were truly the case, the Zerg wouldn't have a hivemind (or Broodmothers fulfilling the very same role cerebrates do) either... Wait a minute! Ohhh, right, they don't really have that either too now. That's why they introduced the Primal Zerg maybe. Hm. :/

[ragnarok]

I don't fully buy that. If that were truly the case, the Zerg wouldn't have a hivemind (or Broodmothers fulfilling the very same role cerebrates do) either... Wait a minute! Ohhh, right, they don't really have that either too now. That's why they introduced the Primal Zerg maybe. Hm. :/

Then you can ask Blizzard for more details about how the hivemind was really made by Amon

[KaiserStratosTygo]

I don't buy that either, GW doesn't have the monopoly on brain bugs.

SST would fucking shit all over GW if they tried to litigate that shit.

[Mislagnissa]

The treatment of the Zerg has been atrocious. They never had interesting characters in any of their appearances, old school or new school. They lost all of their cultural uniqueness to become Kerrigan's personal weapon of mass destruction. Blizzard attempts to justify this using logic that would not hold up in court if GW tried to use it. The Zerg are about as different from the Tyranids as the new Necrons are from the old Necrons.

Blizzard is not going to fix that, so if you want some of that old school Zerg goodness back, you'll have to either make custom campaigns (which the crappy SC2 map editor makes all but impossible) or write fanfiction.


Then you can ask Blizzard for more details about how the hivemind was really made by AmonThat's a retcon which renders the entire backstory of the Zerg nonsensical and makes them really boring compared to their awesome SC1 manual backstory.

I'm an old school Zerg fan. The Overmind and his Cerebrates rule, while Zagara, Abathur, Stukov and all the rest gleefully obey.

[ragnarok]

That's a retcon which renders the entire backstory of the Zerg nonsensical and makes them really boring compared to their awesome SC1 manual backstory.

I'm an old school Zerg fan. The Overmind and his Cerebrates rule, while Zagara, Abathur, Stukov and all the rest gleefully obey.

The hivemind existed in the SC1 lore. Besides I take what was given from the SC2 lore and go from there, instead of just ignoring the whole thing

[Visions of Khas]

That's a retcon which renders the entire backstory of the Zerg nonsensical and makes them really boring compared to their awesome SC1 manual backstory.

Playing devil's advocate, but how has it changed the zerg fundamentally? In the original lore, the Xel'Naga forged the Overmind to circumvent warring egos and bring them to heel. How is it changed to know that Amon, specifically, spearheaded that particular aspect of the zerg?

I think the whole thing with Blizzard eliminating the Cerebrates is really dumb, too. Instead of cerebrates invoking the Tyranid Hivemind, now we have Queens mirroring Tyrand Norn Queens. It's fixed nothing, really.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/02/ab/e5/02abe5b57fed3475e6803a59ed630283.jpg

https://bnetcmsus-a.akamaihd.net/cms/content_folder_media/QZH2TDWABX1Z1403290202207.jpg

Nope. No similarities. At all.

[Mislagnissa]

The hivemind existed in the SC1 lore. Besides I take what was given from the SC2 lore and go from there, instead of just ignoring the whole thingI have no problem taking stuff from SC2 lore that doesn't contradict SC1 lore. However, I have a beef with the writing going back to SC1. Episode II is nowhere near as interesting or well plotted as Episodes I or III, which makes sense when you learn that the writers decide to revive Kerrigan and rewrote the Zerg campaign around her. By the time BW rolls around the writers are clearly making it up as they go along.

As it stands, StarCraft simply doesn't have a solid story because the alien side is horribly mishandled.


Playing devil's advocate, but how has it changed the zerg fundamentally? In the original lore, the Xel'Naga forged the Overmind to circumvent warring egos and bring them to heel. How is it changed to know that Amon, specifically, spearheaded that particular aspect of the zerg?SC2 retconned the entire backstory, not just that part. SC2 rewrote the series from military scifi to space fantasy romance.

In SC1, the zerg were parasites who the xel'naga made slight modifications to to increase their survival and prevent internal strife. The Zerg flourished beyond expectations and developed capabilities the xel'naga never predicted, like infestation and assimilation. Ultimately the Zerg devoured their creators, gained their knowledge, and went on a galactic eating spree in search of a weapon against the Protoss who they would inevitably face. The Zerg elevated the previously arbitrary/subjective concepts of "purity of form" and "purity of essence" to religious importance and believed that by assimilating the Protoss' purity of form (which the xel'naga explicitly believed sullied and discarded in favor of purity of essence, because it was all a vanity project) they would become perfect.

In SC2, the zerg were reptile bug things which ate each other to acquire space magic which makes them randomly mutate and become stronger. Amon created the Overmind and enslaved the Zerg, then took them from Zerus and sent them on a mission to destroy the Protoss. Amon was an idiot who the Overmind didn't like for enslaving it, so the Overmind used its god-like ability to predict the future in order to mastermind Amon's embarrassing death through a variety of impossible circumstances and coincidences. The Zerg religion was expanded on and made into the factual creation myth of the universe and part of some space magic cosmic cycle thingy. The xel'naga are actually space gods who reproduce by creating two races to act as eggs and sperm to conceive a new race of xel'naga.

[Turalyon]

The treatment of the Zerg has been atrocious. They never had interesting characters in any of their appearances, old school or new school. They lost all of their cultural uniqueness to become Kerrigan's personal weapon of mass destruction. Blizzard attempts to justify this using logic that would not hold up in court if GW tried to use it. The Zerg are about as different from the Tyranids as the new Necrons are from the old Necrons.

You know, I was never bothered by Kerrigan's usurpation of the Zerg and her using of them to her own ends in BW and that's saying a lot because the Zerg are my favourite (most Zerg fans actually despise Kerrigan's influence). It wasn't wholly without rhyme or reason on a conceptual level because she was billed in Sc1 as the most powerful agent of the Swarm, the Overmind left her with her own spirit/individuality and she had a chip on her shoulder from being controlled all her life up to that point. Now, with the Overmind dead, the original Zerg culture was literally ripped off them then and there already, so it was up for grabs as to which way the Zerg could turn out. It would have been better had we seen the other side of the Zerg more (that is, the remnant Cerebrate point of view) but having Kerrigan control them is definitely an interesting change to the Zerg following the Overmind's death, regardless of whether one deems it a "good" or "bad" change.

The bigger crime in the treatment of the Zerg is wholly in Sc2. The Overmind stuff in WoL can at least be potentially ignored now because of the retcon in LotV of the retcon in WoL (it was a sham concocted by Ouros) but that fundamental change in the Overmind's origin and nature as exposited off-handedly by the ghost of another thought-to-be-dead character absolutely gutted me at the time. HotS compounds this in even more excruciating detail by not only saying the Overmind was not the Zerg, but the Zerg we know generally are not the real Zerg at all - the Primals are. I thought that I couldn't be more disgusted when they threw the Overmind under the boss and pinned all it's achievements on some non-descript villain, just to lazily and artificially bolster up his cred in WoL, but to undermine the Zerg further and so entirely in HotS by nonchalantly saying they're not really Zerg... I can't even find the words to describe it, but betrayal is close. I'm still deciding whether what the Zerg had to suffer was comparatively worse than what the revelations of the Protoss had to endure during LotV.

Sc2 should've treated the Zerg better by removing Kerrigan from them entirely and seeing them evolve beyond their limitation of not having the Overmind or being controlled by Kerrigan.


Playing devil's advocate, but how has it changed the zerg fundamentally? In the original lore, the Xel'Naga forged the Overmind to circumvent warring egos and bring them to heel. How is it changed to know that Amon, specifically, spearheaded that particular aspect of the zerg?

Thing is, it isn't just that Amon is revealed to be the Xel'Naga behind the uplifting, it's the retconning of the purpose behind it and the how and why of things that is added on to it. It's because of the idea now that the Overmind was really not the Overmind and by extension, not really representative of what it is to be Zerg. The Overmind/Zerg was just a tool/device (both literally and figuratively) for a bigger villain, not a third race with it's own agenda and stakes. Not only is the Overmind rendered into an unreliable narrator, the omniscient view of the history in the manual is also rendered into being an unreliable narrator. Everything becomes untethered as a result


I have no problem taking stuff from SC2 lore that doesn't contradict SC1 lore. However, I have a beef with the writing going back to SC1. Episode II is nowhere near as interesting or well plotted as Episodes I or III, which makes sense when you learn that the writers decide to revive Kerrigan and rewrote the Zerg campaign around her. By the time BW rolls around the writers are clearly making it up as they go along.

They've always been "making it up all along". A technically "good" story is often when it successfully conveys the illusion that it was all fully formed from the get-go.

It's debatable whether Kerrigan makes Episode II less interesting or poorly plotted because if you look at the missions without Kerrigan, the plotting is indeed more drab and pedestrian. The first missions of Episode II revolve around babysitting a McGuffin and the last missions are completely and can be easily disconnected from what came before since the Overmind's invasion of Aiur doesn't involve Kerrigan (which makes you wonder why two-thirds of the game is dedicated to her rebirth). Really, the inclusion of Kerrigan is what actually kicks the plot momentum of Episode II into gear such that even though Aiur's invasion is predicated on Zeratul being on Char, the presence of Kerrigan as a plot device handily explains why Zeratul is even there in the first place (the psychic call when she was in the chrysalis).

[Mislagnissa]

Sc2 should've treated the Zerg better by removing Kerrigan from them entirely and seeing them evolve beyond their limitation of not having the Overmind or being controlled by Kerrigan.Limitation? The Overmind enabled the Zerg to become a galactic horde of locusts. Without that unity, they will only ever stagnate, degenerate, or become funny looking humans.


It's debatable whether Kerrigan makes Episode II less interesting or poorly plotted because if you look at the missions without Kerrigan, the plotting is indeed more drab and pedestrian. The SC1 manual foreshadowed that the Zerg were going to create legions of psychic infested Terrans. That sounds loads more interesting to me.

[ragnarok]

I have no problem taking stuff from SC2 lore that doesn't contradict SC1 lore. However, I have a beef with the writing going back to SC1. Episode II is nowhere near as interesting or well plotted as Episodes I or III, which makes sense when you learn that the writers decide to revive Kerrigan and rewrote the Zerg campaign around her. By the time BW rolls around the writers are clearly making it up as they go along.


That was more because with the Overmind gone and the new one too young to do anything, they didn't want the zerg to sit around and just wait until the new one matures. Kerrigan was right about that point when she told Artanis and Zeratul of the new Overmind.


SC2 retconned the entire backstory, not just that part. SC2 rewrote the series from military scifi to space fantasy romance.

Overemphasized, that was the main problem. No one would have had any problems with their relationship in the 1st game because it wasn't the main point. All Blizzard had to do was continue that path

[ragnarok]

Limitation? The Overmind enabled the Zerg to become a galactic horde of locusts. Without that unity, they will only ever stagnate, degenerate, or become funny looking humans.



You're acting like the Overmind ALONE was what kept the swarm from doing it. Even by the time of BW it was clear the Cerebrates could keep much of the swarm from going feral. It proved that you never really needed the Overmind to prevent such things, SC2 merely capitalized on that and introduced the hybrids for such control. Besides, as early as the Dark Origin mission people had speculated that the hybrid Duran showed Zeratul could be able to control the swarm.



The SC1 manual foreshadowed that the Zerg were going to create legions of psychic infested Terrans. That sounds loads more interesting to me.

In many ways I felt the same. The whole point why the Overmind turned to humanity was because the Khala prevented infestation, so the swarm had to find another species in order to get psionic abilities. But the virus wasn't compatible with most terrans, hence why all the mindless drones.

[Mislagnissa]

That was more because with the Overmind gone and the new one too young to do anything, they didn't want the zerg to sit around and just wait until the new one matures. Kerrigan was right about that point when she told Artanis and Zeratul of the new Overmind.My point exactly. Maybe the Brood War could have been an actual Brood War where the Broods fight each other for supremacy. Without the Overmind to give a constructive direction, they end up being far more dangerous to the Terrans and Protoss.

[ragnarok]

My point exactly. Maybe the Brood War could have been an actual Brood War where the Broods fight each other for supremacy. Without the Overmind to give a constructive direction, they end up being far more dangerous to the Terrans and Protoss.

In some ways they did try to implement this in HotS. I didn't mind the whole revenge matter against Mengsk, I just felt that shouldn't have been the whole point of the campaign. If nothing else they should have explained more on the primal zerg at Zerus, as well as the prophecy at Skygeirr. I felt Phantoms of the Void mission alone wasn't enough

[Visions of Khas]

The whole point why the Overmind turned to humanity was because the Khala prevented infestation, so the swarm had to find another species in order to get psionic abilities.
SCI and the manual never actually touched on whether or not the Zerg could assimilate the protoss. The Overmind needed the terran psychic capacity in order to fight the protoss on even footing. After the Overmind gained its foothold on Aiur, it seemed absolutely intent on infesting the protoss without any hints of resistance -- from the khala or otherwise. The Khala and Void serving as barriers to infestation was lore developed later on.

[ragnarok]

SCI and the manual never actually touched on whether or not the Zerg could assimilate the protoss. The Overmind needed the terran psychic capacity in order to fight the protoss on even footing. After the Overmind gained its foothold on Aiur, it seemed absolutely intent on infesting the protoss without any hints of resistance -- from the khala or otherwise. The Khala and Void serving as barriers to infestation was lore developed later on.

That lore developed later on was to explain why initial infestation didn't work, hence why the Overmind needed the Khaydarin crystals. Remember, for all the killing on Aiur, the Overmind was still at work on the crystals. This was somewhat explained about at the beginning of Full Circle.

[Turalyon]

Limitation? The Overmind enabled the Zerg to become a galactic horde of locusts. Without that unity, they will only ever stagnate, degenerate, or become funny looking humans.

Reading mis-comprehension on your part. I said "limitation of not having the Overmind" not "limitation of having the Overmind".


The SC1 manual foreshadowed that the Zerg were going to create legions of psychic infested Terrans. That sounds loads more interesting to me.

And yet none of this was even addressed in Episode II except only on an oblique level with the inclusion of Kerrigan.... and then she's forgotten about at the end of the Overmind campaign. So much for the Overmind wanting (or needing for that matter) to "create legions of psychic Terrans"...


Maybe the Brood War could have been an actual Brood War where the Broods fight each other for supremacy. Without the Overmind to give a constructive direction, they end up being far more dangerous to the Terrans and Protoss.

Agree with the former but not the latter. The Zerg in BW seem to be just as powerful without the Overmind than they were with the Overmind in Sc1, if not more when it really shouldn't! In BW, the death of the Overmind had no real negligible effect since the supposed "feral" Zerg were still powerful enough to invade and almost defeat the Protoss on Shakuras (you know, the homeland for the only threat that troubled the Zerg in Sc1), when it really should have hindered them. Even the most powerful fighting force at the time, the UED, had to struggle to even get close the baby Overmind and only got that chance because of a plot device to weaken the Zerg (when they really shouldn't need further weakening with the Overmind being dead/immature). In a way, it kind of devalues Tassadar's sacrifice.


SCI and the manual never actually touched on whether or not the Zerg could assimilate the protoss.

I don't even know why this was even something to be doubted in the first place. The whole premise about the Zerg and the Overmind is its goal of finding the Protoss and assimilating them so there's a tacit understading/implication that this was always possible. If they weren't actually able to do it from the get go, that's something that should've been made clear from the start. To say that because we didn't see the Zerg assimilate the Protoss in the game is proof that the Zerg never could assimilate Protoss is horrendously fallacious (argument from ignorance).


The Overmind needed the terran psychic capacity in order to fight the protoss on even footing.

The Overmind's successful invasion of Aiur - without Kerrigan mind you - seems to disagree with this assessment.

[Visions of Khas]

Tura, I was directly referring to the Zerg section of the manual The Determinant, which speaks to the Overmind's worries over fighting the protoss. This goes in hand with Misalgnissa's point that a lot of the content on the manual was excluded from the game.

[ragnarok]

The Overmind's successful invasion of Aiur - without Kerrigan mind you - seems to disagree with this assessment.

Tell me something Tura: after getting Kerrigan into the swarm, what exactly did the Overmind make use of regarding her psionic abilities to the rest of the zerg?

[Turalyon]

Tura, I was directly referring to the Zerg section of the manual The Determinant, which speaks to the Overmind's worries over fighting the protoss. This goes in hand with Misalgnissa's point that a lot of the content on the manual was excluded from the game.

So what about this? When Episode II starts, the Overmind has already found the very thing to stop its anxiety about fighting the Protoss. Sure, it could've been more overt and expository to show in the game that the Overmind was worried before the start of Episode II but it's hardly necessary (since that's what the manual is there for and had already detailed). The reveal later in the campaign that it actually had the psionically gifted Kerrigan in its possession fills in the gaps and connects to the background detailed in the manual. So, the reason why the Overmind was never worried from the start of Episode II and is supremely confident throughout the campaign was because it thought it had already won having in its possession at last, its "determinant" (albeit in Chrysalis form).


Tell me something Tura: after getting Kerrigan into the swarm, what exactly did the Overmind make use of regarding her psionic abilities to the rest of the zerg?

It used her to fight the most dangerous Protoss it had met since it's arrival in the K sector.

[ragnarok]

It used her to fight the most dangerous Protoss it had met since it's arrival in the K sector.

You know I'm still unsure if the Overmind actually saw the Nerazim as the most dangerous Protoss. Yes they can permanently kill Cerebrates, but I felt it would have thought they're still relatively few in number and therefore isn't THAT big of a threat.

Of course, it depends on the degree of arrogance it had.

[Mislagnissa]

You're acting like the Overmind ALONE was what kept the swarm from doing it. Even by the time of BW it was clear the Cerebrates could keep much of the swarm from going feral.Every cerebrate is basically a miniature version of the Overmind, so it isn't surprisingly they share capabilities in common. The Overmind, however, served a vital regulating role by preventing them from fighting a brood war against one another like the xel'naga feared they might do. The actual BW expansion forgot this and trivialized the demise of the Overmind and Tassadar's sacrifice. Even reclaiming feral zerg is actually a retcon, as there was no indication in SC1 that this was possible (at least not without replicating the drug- and tech-based enslavement practiced by Terrans).


But the virus wasn't compatible with most terrans, hence why all the mindless drones.This is a retcon. We didn't see more intelligent infested Terrans in the game due to development limitations and because Episode II was seemingly rewritten (and hastily so) to include QoB. It's unbelievable that QoB is the most powerful human psychic ever, more powerful than Protoss, uniquely compatible with infestation, present on Tarsonis when the Zerg invaded, etc.


SCI and the manual never actually touched on whether or not the Zerg could assimilate the protoss. The Overmind needed the terran psychic capacity in order to fight the protoss on even footing. After the Overmind gained its foothold on Aiur, it seemed absolutely intent on infesting the protoss without any hints of resistance -- from the khala or otherwise. The Khala and Void serving as barriers to infestation was lore developed later on.The Zerg were infesting Terran worlds for over a decade before the Great War started. This suggests that infesting and assimilating species may take a fair amount of time based on their physiology. If it took over a decade for the Zerg to infest and assimilate Terrans, then it stands to reason infesting and assimilating the Protoss would take even longer.


That lore developed later on was to explain why initial infestation didn't work, hence why the Overmind needed the Khaydarin crystals. Remember, for all the killing on Aiur, the Overmind was still at work on the crystals. This was somewhat explained about at the beginning of Full Circle.The Overmind stated that the Protoss don't fully understand the applications of the crystals. Which makes sense, because the Zerg ate the xel'naga who created the crystals. What doesn't make sense is that the Zerg were not already churning out Khaydarin crystals for the war effort. The Zerg briefing screen does show a giant purple crystal surrounded by human skeletons, which seemingly plays a role in their communication, but the significance of this is never explained.


Agree with the former but not the latter. The Zerg in BW seem to be just as powerful without the Overmind than they were with the Overmind in Sc1, if not more when it really shouldn't! In BW, the death of the Overmind had no real negligible effect since the supposed "feral" Zerg were still powerful enough to invade and almost defeat the Protoss on Shakuras (you know, the homeland for the only threat that troubled the Zerg in Sc1), when it really should have hindered them. Even the most powerful fighting force at the time, the UED, had to struggle to even get close the baby Overmind and only got that chance because of a plot device to weaken the Zerg (when they really shouldn't need further weakening with the Overmind being dead/immature). In a way, it kind of devalues Tassadar's sacrifice.That's what I've been saying. These are some of my many complaints about how the story was handled. There are inconsistencies which are never explained, previous plot points are dropped or contradicted, new antagonists appear out of left field, etc.

[ragnarok]

The Overmind stated that the Protoss don't fully understand the applications of the crystals. Which makes sense, because the Zerg ate the xel'naga who created the crystals. What doesn't make sense is that the Zerg were not already churning out Khaydarin crystals for the war effort. The Zerg briefing screen does show a giant purple crystal surrounded by human skeletons, which seemingly plays a role in their communication, but the significance of this is never explained.


Actually in the SC1 lore it was heavily implied, but never actually STATED, the Xel'Naga created the crystals. The Overmind did understand more, but it seemed like it needed to harness their power to assimilate the Protoss, which would merely be a way to get around the Khala.


This is a retcon. We didn't see more intelligent infested Terrans in the game due to development limitations and because Episode II was seemingly rewritten (and hastily so) to include QoB. It's unbelievable that QoB is the most powerful human psychic ever, more powerful than Protoss, uniquely compatible with infestation, present on Tarsonis when the Zerg invaded, etc.

Then how would you explain why all the other infested terrans only turned out mindless drones? (If you were to use a lore reasoning)


Every cerebrate is basically a miniature version of the Overmind, so it isn't surprisingly they share capabilities in common. The Overmind, however, served a vital regulating role by preventing them from fighting a brood war against one another like the xel'naga feared they might do. The actual BW expansion forgot this and trivialized the demise of the Overmind and Tassadar's sacrifice. Even reclaiming feral zerg is actually a retcon, as there was no indication in SC1 that this was possible (at least not without replicating the drug- and tech-based enslavement practiced by Terrans).

You think after Zasz's brood went feral the only way to deal with it is to destroy it completely?

BW didn't forget the infighting as you claimed. The whole point of the swarm's function in the BW was because Kerrigan controlled half, and Daggoth's forces controlled the other half and neither wanted to share. Hell the whole point of Kaloth infesting Stukov probably reflected this too, because the Cerebrates wanted a way to deal with Kerrigan


That's what I've been saying. These are some of my many complaints about how the story was handled. There are inconsistencies which are never explained, previous plot points are dropped or contradicted, new antagonists appear out of left field, etc.

This is the whole point of why people wanted a better ending when they began writing the storyline for SC2. BW's ending made it seem like everyone's sacrifice had been for nothing. And Duran's plans merely suffered a temporary setback due to the loss of the swarm to Kerrigan, and he simply went around that by using terran tech to breed the hybrid instead.

[Turalyon]

You know I'm still unsure if the Overmind actually saw the Nerazim as the most dangerous Protoss. Yes they can permanently kill Cerebrates, but I felt it would have thought they're still relatively few in number and therefore isn't THAT big of a threat.

That they are few in number but possess a power and capability not even legions of Protoss warriors and war machines could achieve would be more than enough to give the Overmind pause (which it did).

Also, it did assign it's most powerful agent to combat them rather than bringing her to the invasion of Aiur and it would rather rush head long onto the homeworld of the Protoss rather than stay put on Char until the Dark Templar were done with. Take that as you will.


That's what I've been saying. These are some of my many complaints about how the story was handled. There are inconsistencies which are never explained, previous plot points are dropped or contradicted, new antagonists appear out of left field, etc.

Oh. I mistook what you said, "Without the Overmind to give a constructive direction, they end up being far more dangerous to the Terrans and Protoss", as being something you agreed with.

[Zoar]

One thing I always had as part of my headcanon was that the Overmind was using the Khaydarin Crystals to "hack" into the Khala and influence the Conclave. Would explain some of their completely bone-headed tactical moves during the war.
Post SC2 it makes even more sense to me as it would seem that the Khaydarin Crystals act as a form of backdoor into the Khala that allowed Amon easy access. If the Overmind has succeeded in implanting itself into the Khala with Amon steering its moves he would have likely created the Hybrid Form he desired right then and there and proceeded to destroy the universe with Hybrid, Zerg, and Protoss under his control.

[Mislagnissa]

Actually in the SC1 lore it was heavily implied, but never actually STATED, the Xel'Naga created the crystals. The Overmind did understand more, but it seemed like it needed to harness their power to assimilate the Protoss, which would merely be a way to get around the Khala.Nice catch. I figured that attacking the Psi Matrix (which relayed the Khala, since Tassadar's ignorance of the inquisition suggests that it has limited range) was the intended goal. This would explain why Fenix's lightsabers failed in mid-combat, which makes a huge amount of tactical sense, whereas later sources (I don't know which) claim it was due to lack of maintenance.


Then how would you explain why all the other infested terrans only turned out mindless drones? (If you were to use a lore reasoning)I wouldn't. I would write fanfiction where the Zerg successfully build armies of psychic infested Terrans after spending the decade before the Great War refining the process.


You think after Zasz's brood went feral the only way to deal with it is to destroy it completely?That is what we saw in SC1. If it was possible for any sufficiently powerful or intelligent Zerg to reclaim feral Zerg, we would have seen it happen then. Instead the entire brood had to be exterminated, and it's ambiguous as to whether this was necessary before the Overmind woke up. If the brood had to be destroyed before the Overmind woke up, or doing so sped it waking up, that suggests some kind of psychic connection that transcends death.

In fact, the intricacies of cerebrate death are never really explored. Initially the implication was that cerebrates were literally the brains of their brood, with the hive mind being their incorporeal nervous system or materialistic equivalent of a soul. When you kill someone's brain, you can't just perform a head transplant and expect them to be fine. In Brood War and SC2, Zerg became subservient to anything capable of transmitting the correct psychic waves as part of their overall decay of narrative agency.


BW didn't forget the infighting as you claimed. The whole point of the swarm's function in the BW was because Kerrigan controlled half, and Daggoth's forces controlled the other half and neither wanted to share. Hell the whole point of Kaloth infesting Stukov probably reflected this too, because the Cerebrates wanted a way to deal with KerriganAll of the cerebrates teamed up to fight Kerrigan, who inexplicably gained the ability to control billions of Zerg and to manage mutation all by herself. QoB is a textbook mary sue by this point, since her entire shtick is that the plot writes itself around her in defiance of previously established rules and character motivations. Cerebrates are gigantic brains, straight out of Starship Troopers, presumably because all that brain mass is necessary to manage the thousands to millions of Zerg which make up each brood. Kerrigan might be able to make heads explode like in Scanners (how she killed her parents), but that doesn't equate to being able to pursue a thousand simultaneous trains of thought.


This is the whole point of why people wanted a better ending when they began writing the storyline for SC2. BW's ending made it seem like everyone's sacrifice had been for nothing. And Duran's plans merely suffered a temporary setback due to the loss of the swarm to Kerrigan, and he simply went around that by using terran tech to breed the hybrid instead.SC2 outright ignores most of the events of BW, particularly the damage done to the Dominion. WoL might as well have started immediately after Episode I for all the difference it makes.


Oh. I mistook what you said, "Without the Overmind to give a constructive direction, they end up being far more dangerous to the Terrans and Protoss", as being something you agreed with.I say that because of strategic concerns. Previously the Zerg had very specific goals and pursued those goals to the exclusion of all else. For example, one could argue that the Protoss ultimately took more Terran lives than the Zerg did, since the Zerg were seeking out psychics rather than trying to kill everything (which, according to the SC1 manual, constitute less than 1% of the population, which the Zerg can sense with their innate psychic sensitivity). Without the Overmind to regulate them, the feral cerebrates (not to be confused with feral broods) would probably cause loads of needless collateral damage in their panic and scramble to survive.

[ragnarok]

That is what we saw in SC1. If it was possible for any sufficiently powerful or intelligent Zerg to reclaim feral Zerg, we would have seen it happen then. Instead the entire brood had to be exterminated, and it's ambiguous as to whether this was necessary before the Overmind woke up. If the brood had to be destroyed before the Overmind woke up, or doing so sped it waking up, that suggests some kind of psychic connection that transcends death.

In fact, the intricacies of cerebrate death are never really explored. Initially the implication was that cerebrates were literally the brains of their brood, with the hive mind being their incorporeal nervous system or materialistic equivalent of a soul. When you kill someone's brain, you can't just perform a head transplant and expect them to be fine. In Brood War and SC2, Zerg became subservient to anything capable of transmitting the correct psychic waves as part of their overall decay of narrative agency.


They're just the arms and legs of the Overmind to make control a bit easier. It's no different than what Kerrigan later did with the broodmothers.


All of the cerebrates teamed up to fight Kerrigan, who inexplicably gained the ability to control billions of Zerg and to manage mutation all by herself. QoB is a textbook mary sue by this point, since her entire shtick is that the plot writes itself around her in defiance of previously established rules and character motivations. Cerebrates are gigantic brains, straight out of Starship Troopers, presumably because all that brain mass is necessary to manage the thousands to millions of Zerg which make up each brood. Kerrigan might be able to make heads explode like in Scanners (how she killed her parents), but that doesn't equate to being able to pursue a thousand simultaneous trains of thought.

No, that deals more with the whole hive mind matter, and that the corrupted zerg are largely mindless, as the primal zerg claimed much later on in HotS.


SC2 outright ignores most of the events of BW, particularly the damage done to the Dominion. WoL might as well have started immediately after Episode I for all the difference it makes.

I wasn't convinced how Mengsk could have rebuilt so much in 4 years. If it was just Korhal, it would have worked fine, but not ALL the planets. What they should have done in WoL was reveal that Duran offered Mengsk a deal to rebuild everything, and in return he must breed the hybrid from him. Given Mengsk's arrogance in thinking he could control it, it'd make sense he'd accept.

[Turalyon]

One thing I always had as part of my headcanon was that the Overmind was using the Khaydarin Crystals to "hack" into the Khala and influence the Conclave. Would explain some of their completely bone-headed tactical moves during the war.
Post SC2 it makes even more sense to me as it would seem that the Khaydarin Crystals act as a form of backdoor into the Khala that allowed Amon easy access. If the Overmind has succeeded in implanting itself into the Khala with Amon steering its moves he would have likely created the Hybrid Form he desired right then and there and proceeded to destroy the universe with Hybrid, Zerg, and Protoss under his control.

This is a pretty neat theory that ties the two together. The only issue I have with it is that it leans too heavily into artifice/ plot device machinations and that it devalues the Protoss identity. It's annoyingenough to have the Conclave being dismissed as just being evil/stupid, let alone make that supposed evil/stupidity a result of some other plot device. Their motivations/concerns and actions were quite legitimate and are based on their racial history.


This would explain why Fenix's lightsabers failed in mid-combat, which makes a huge amount of tactical sense, whereas later sources (I don't know which) claim it was due to lack of maintenance.

I like to think that the explanation behind Fenix's psi blades failure is more to do with his characterisation than anything else. Since the blades are generated partially from their minds and require focus, their failure could've been a depiction of Fenix losing faith/becoming disheartened. Given the lack of facial gestures, I think this was the only way they could depict that.


I would write fanfiction where the Zerg successfully build armies of psychic infested Terrans after spending the decade before the Great War refining the process.

This would imply that it would've been easy for the Overmind to be able to find an intact psychic Terran and one who wouldn't resist it. Clearly, it wasn't an easy task for the Overmind since it only succeeded out of pure luck when it came across Kerrigan at New Gettysburg.


I say that because of strategic concerns. Previously the Zerg had very specific goals and pursued those goals to the exclusion of all else. For example, one could argue that the Protoss ultimately took more Terran lives than the Zerg did, since the Zerg were seeking out psychics rather than trying to kill everything (which, according to the SC1 manual, constitute less than 1% of the population, which the Zerg can sense with their innate psychic sensitivity). Without the Overmind to regulate them, the feral cerebrates (not to be confused with feral broods) would probably cause loads of needless collateral damage in their panic and scramble to survive.

Keep in mind that the feral Zerg are not only dangerous to others, but more importantly, they are now just as dangerous to themselves without the Overmind (as The Culling showed on a smaller scale)... or were supposed to be. The ferals should also be less effective in tactical maneuvers/as a military force without the Overmind even if they weren't busy attacking themselves. Either way, the Zerg under the Overmind showed no compunction to killing others or mitigating its damage in it search for psychics since the game tells us expressly that the Zerg laid waste to 9 out of 13 of the Terrans worlds. Taken together, the Zerg with the Overmind are and should be more dangerous (if not, less manageable at the least) than Zerg without the Overmind.

[ragnarok]

I like to think that the explanation behind Fenix's psi blades failure is more to do with his characterisation than anything else. Since the blades are generated partially from their minds and require focus, their failure could've been a depiction of Fenix losing faith/becoming disheartened. Given the lack of facial gestures, I think this was the only way they could depict that.


You were supposed to say the reason for this was because he didn't use duracell batteries, Tura

[Mislagnissa]

They're just the arms and legs of the Overmind to make control a bit easier. It's no different than what Kerrigan later did with the broodmothers.
No, that deals more with the whole hive mind matter, and that the corrupted zerg are largely mindless, as the primal zerg claimed much later on in HotS. Every expansion and sequel has retconned how the zerg and the hive mind works. I am operating on the SC1 manual explanation that the Overmind and his cerebrates are functions of the swarm itself rather than external agents.


This would imply that it would've been easy for the Overmind to be able to find an intact psychic Terran and one who wouldn't resist it. Clearly, it wasn't an easy task for the Overmind since it only succeeded out of pure luck when it came across Kerrigan at New Gettysburg. There’s a disconnect between the Zerg backstory in the manual and the events of the game due to script rewrites.

In the manual, it was stated that less than 1% of the human population is psychic. Since there are billions of humans across the Koprulu sector, this means that there are millions of psychics. All Zerg are inherently able to sense psychics, which is how the probes found humans in the first place. There were clearly enough human psychics present that the Zerg considered it economical to send the entirety of the swarms in the galaxy (or nearly enough) to that sector, a logistics nightmare which took 60 "years" (implied to be Earth units, as it isn't clear if the backstory is written in-character or out-of-character). When they arrived, they spent an unknown amount of time (later sources specify over a decade in Earth units) studying the Terrans (and being studied in turn) until the Protoss arrived and glassed Chau Sara.

IIRC, Kerrigan was supposed to have died on Tarsonis until the writers decided they liked her enough to bring her back in the Zerg campaign. They rewrite her as a completely different character (or tweak a Zerg character that existed in a previous draft), destroying whatever they originally liked about her and defeating the point of bringing her back. The other psychic zerg were written out of the story and QoB carried their entire narrative load, making her into a walking weapon of mass destruction. The last two missions of the Zerg campaign are probably the only parts of the pre-QoB drafts that were left unaltered.

In later sources, QoB is made into an even bigger Mary Sue who was gifted with numerous impossible properties. She was the most powerful psychic ever (out of human and protoss), she was the only psychic to be compatible with the Zerg, she took over the swarm with ease, she manipulated everyone (into doing what they were already going to do) with ease, she took over the sector with ease, etc.

I simply cannot take the canon events seriously.


Keep in mind that the feral Zerg are not only dangerous to others, but more importantly, they are now just as dangerous to themselves without the Overmind (as The Culling showed on a smaller scale)... or were supposed to be. The ferals should also be less effective in tactical maneuvers/as a military force without the Overmind even if they weren't busy attacking themselves. No argument there.

The sane zerg understood strategy and concentrated on targets of strategic importance like military installations. The leaderless cerebrates are likely engage in acts of panic or madness or vengeance or something that contradicts the directive to infest and assimilate, such as attacking targets of no strategic value or bombarding cities from orbit.

The feral zerg engage in indiscriminate slaughter and while they will certainly decimate themselves, natural selection pressures will ensure the survivors will be predisposed to attacking non-zerg. The command strains like queens and overlords may not be equipped to deal with the situation, but they retain their near- or above-human intelligence while feral as well as their command of receptive hives and minions (which isn’t a lot, but it’s still an advantage against the leaderless minions). The psychic strains created using human genetic material, assuming they exist in this scenario, might even be able to pull off QoB’s mind control shenanigans on a smaller scale to form warring guerilla broods.

The Protoss power base is already broken so they aren’t equipped to deal with a second planet-wide war, much less one with hundreds of new sides that breed armies in days.


Either way, the Zerg under the Overmind showed no compunction to killing others or mitigating its damage in it search for psychics since the game tells us expressly that the Zerg laid waste to 9 out of 13 of the Terrans worlds. Taken together, the Zerg with the Overmind are and should be more dangerous (if not, less manageable at the least) than Zerg without the Overmind.
Judging by the huge militaries and complacency seen in BW and SC2 despite three Zerg invasions that were each stated to have laid waste to numerous planets, the Zerg didn’t kill enough people to make any difference.

On a more serious note, the Zerg detect and need psychics. In order to acquire the millions of psychics on each world, they would have to concentrate on areas with large numbers of psychics and would have to take steps to ensure their targets survive to be infested. I can see that leaving large numbers of people alive in less densely populated areas where it would be more difficult to find individual psychics. At that point in time they aren’t trying to exterminate the human race, so they may have strains dedicated specifically to abducting people en masse like the tripods in Spielberg’s War of the Worlds.

[ragnarok]

Every expansion and sequel has retconned how the zerg and the hive mind works. I am operating on the SC1 manual explanation that the Overmind and his cerebrates are functions of the swarm itself rather than external agents.


I felt that was because they didn't want to dive deep into the zerg except to say they're basically mindless puppets. To a small degree I felt this was exactly how they did with the Xenomorph and how as the Alien series went on, we saw retcons of their function.

Regardless, I chose to use what was given from HotS and go from there.

[Turalyon]

Wall-o-text, how I missed thee...


Since there are billions of humans across the Koprulu sector, this means that there are millions of psychics.

That there were "billions" of Terrans in the K sector as of the start of Sc1 is an overstatement. While technically possible to reach "billions" from a founding population of 32k over 200 years, it requires optimum and sustained conditions to be possible. Also, can it be said that all psychics are the same? Given the ability is somewhat latent in Terrans, some may have the potential but it may not be able to be translated across via assimilation.

Whatever the case, even if the chances were 99% of finding a psychic the story still has it that the Overmind didn't find or assimilate this potential until New Gettysberg. The reason is not elucidated as to why but one can only surmise that whatever the reason, it was not so simple a task for the Overmind.


All Zerg are inherently able to sense psychics, which is how the probes found humans in the first place.

Originally, it's unclear whether the Zerg are innately able to sense/be attracted to psionics since it's inferred that such interest in psionics is due to the Overmind's motivation for wanting to assimilate psionic potential from humans. BW more or less clarifies that it was always innate however...


There were clearly enough human psychics present that the Zerg considered it economical to send the entirety of the swarms in the galaxy (or nearly enough) to that sector, a logistics nightmare which took 60 "years" (implied to be Earth units, as it isn't clear if the backstory is written in-character or out-of-character).

It was not an economic based decision on the Overmind's part but an emotional one because it feared the Protoss psionic power. The manual itself says the Overmind was "greatly disturbed" and "on the verge of despair" before finding psionic potential in humans.


IIRC, Kerrigan was supposed to have died on Tarsonis until the writers decided they liked her enough to bring her back in the Zerg campaign.

I've heard different things about this over the years. It's clear that her reintroduction in the Zerg campaign was due solely to author conceit, but not just because they liked the character but also because Metzen, at the time, felt that the Zerg needed a human lens to see the Zerg.


They rewrite her as a completely different character (or tweak a Zerg character that existed in a previous draft), destroying whatever they originally liked about her and defeating the point of bringing her back.

Of course she's different (not just in the physical sense), she's gone through an experience like no-one else has before. Terran Kerrigan was a naive individual who learnt, too late and with harsh consequence, a bitter lesson that changed not only her physical shape but her outlook on things. I like to think of infested Kerrigan as being the true human Kerrigan (one who has embraced the inner darkness she always knew she had), not the naive and repressed Terran individual we see in Rebel Yell. Her development is quite continuous and not a random arbitrary change as you make it out to be.


The last two missions of the Zerg campaign are probably the only parts of the pre-QoB drafts that were left unaltered.

You're probably right about that and it's ultimately to the given story's detriment because the last two missions stick out as being far removed from the story the previous missions have built up. On a constructed narrative level, Kerrigan really needed to be involved in some capacity in those last two missions.


In later sources, QoB is made into an even bigger Mary Sue who was gifted with numerous impossible properties. She was the most powerful psychic ever (out of human and protoss), she was the only psychic to be compatible with the Zerg, she took over the swarm with ease, she manipulated everyone (into doing what they were already going to do) with ease, she took over the sector with ease, etc.

This all started because of BW's depiction of Kerrigan. Sure, the narrative and the characters do tend to bend toward making Kerrigan (the Zerg are also similarly made to be OP despite having no Overmind) better than what she actually is but at least it's consistently doing that throughout BW.


The feral zerg engage in indiscriminate slaughter and while they will certainly decimate themselves, natural selection pressures will ensure the survivors will be predisposed to attacking non-zerg.

This natural evolution you speak of here would've been some interesting territory to explore in BW but it would've been too soon to implement after the Overmind's death. The Zerg needed to suffer a tangible consequence of losing the Overmind and whilst we didn't see it in the way you would expect, having them be dominated and used by some crazy, hybrid freak in Kerrigan for her own personal goals is a pretty good alternative option in retrospect. Hell, I would've liked to see this natural evolution occur in Sc2 as a response to Kerrigan's rule and that this natural evolution without guidance by a hivemind or overt control be the basis of the primal Zerg, not the shonky tacked on version we got in HotS.


The Protoss power base is already broken so they aren’t equipped to deal with a second planet-wide war, much less one with hundreds of new sides that breed armies in days.

But it should've been on more even footing by the end of Sc1. Those hundreds of new sides are just as much of a threat to themselves than they are to others and given their close proximity, the Zerg would've been tearing at each other first. It's important to highlight this because one of the common themes in Starcraft is the strength found in unity. Given the Zerg had the ultimate version of this and was most successful with it, it needs to be shown that when they don't have it, that there's some bad shit to be in (just like the reverse of the Protoss progress in achieving unity)


Judging by the huge militaries and complacency seen in BW and SC2 despite three Zerg invasions that were each stated to have laid waste to numerous planets, the Zerg didn’t kill enough people to make any difference.

Hah! Tell me about it. Raynor says billions were killed? Eh, peanuts really. :p


On a more serious note, the Zerg detect and need psychics.

I would say the Overmind didn't really need psychics, just that it really wanted them badly. It could invade Aiur and it was seemingly doing well all without Kerrigan's direct help, afterall.

[Mislagnissa]

Wall-o-text, how I missed thee...



That there were "billions" of Terrans in the K sector as of the start of Sc1 is an overstatement. While technically possible to reach "billions" from a founding population of 32k over 200 years, it requires optimum and sustained conditions to be possible. Also, can it be said that all psychics are the same? Given the ability is somewhat latent in Terrans, some may have the potential but it may not be able to be translated across via assimilation.

Whatever the case, even if the chances were 99% of finding a psychic the story still has it that the Overmind didn't find or assimilate this potential until New Gettysberg. The reason is not elucidated as to why but one can only surmise that whatever the reason, it was not so simple a task for the Overmind.



Originally, it's unclear whether the Zerg are innately able to sense/be attracted to psionics since it's inferred that such interest in psionics is due to the Overmind's motivation for wanting to assimilate psionic potential from humans. BW more or less clarifies that it was always innate however...



It was not an economic based decision on the Overmind's part but an emotional one because it feared the Protoss psionic power. The manual itself says the Overmind was "greatly disturbed" and "on the verge of despair" before finding psionic potential in humans.



I've heard different things about this over the years. It's clear that her reintroduction in the Zerg campaign was due solely to author conceit, but not just because they liked the character but also because Metzen, at the time, felt that the Zerg needed a human lens to see the Zerg.



Of course she's different (not just in the physical sense), she's gone through an experience like no-one else has before. Terran Kerrigan was a naive individual who learnt, too late and with harsh consequence, a bitter lesson that changed not only her physical shape but her outlook on things. I like to think of infested Kerrigan as being the true human Kerrigan (one who has embraced the inner darkness she always knew she had), not the naive and repressed Terran individual we see in Rebel Yell. Her development is quite continuous and not a random arbitrary change as you make it out to be.



You're probably right about that and it's ultimately to the given story's detriment because the last two missions stick out as being far removed from the story the previous missions have built up. On a constructed narrative level, Kerrigan really needed to be involved in some capacity in those last two missions.



This all started because of BW's depiction of Kerrigan. Sure, the narrative and the characters do tend to bend toward making Kerrigan (the Zerg are also similarly made to be OP despite having no Overmind) better than what she actually is but at least it's consistently doing that throughout BW.



This natural evolution you speak of here would've been some interesting territory to explore in BW but it would've been too soon to implement after the Overmind's death. The Zerg needed to suffer a tangible consequence of losing the Overmind and whilst we didn't see it in the way you would expect, having them be dominated and used by some crazy, hybrid freak in Kerrigan for her own personal goals is a pretty good alternative option in retrospect. Hell, I would've liked to see this natural evolution occur in Sc2 as a response to Kerrigan's rule and that this natural evolution without guidance by a hivemind or overt control be the basis of the primal Zerg, not the shonky tacked on version we got in HotS.



But it should've been on more even footing by the end of Sc1. Those hundreds of new sides are just as much of a threat to themselves than they are to others and given their close proximity, the Zerg would've been tearing at each other first. It's important to highlight this because one of the common themes in Starcraft is the strength found in unity. Given the Zerg had the ultimate version of this and was most successful with it, it needs to be shown that when they don't have it, that there's some bad shit to be in (just like the reverse of the Protoss progress in achieving unity)



Hah! Tell me about it. Raynor says billions were killed? Eh, peanuts really. :p



I would say the Overmind didn't really need psychics, just that it really wanted them badly. It could invade Aiur and it was seemingly doing well all without Kerrigan's direct help, afterall.

Again, rewrites and sequels turned a previously sensible plot into a mess. If the Great War was as devastating as implied then Mengsk would have been ruling over a tiny fraction of what used to be the Confederacy. They would be quickly wiped out by a second Zerg invasion.

StarCraft never handled scale very well. We have absurd levels of population growth and industry on the Terran side. We have conflicts devastating dozens of planets, killing many billions, yet lasting only a few months at a time. The numbers even change between games, to the point where SC2 makes the Confederacy responsible for wiping out a third of their own population when they bombard Korhal because a single politician got uppity.

[ragnarok]

StarCraft never handled scale very well. We have absurd levels of population growth and industry on the Terran side. We have conflicts devastating dozens of planets, killing many billions, yet lasting only a few months at a time. The numbers even change between games, to the point where SC2 makes the Confederacy responsible for wiping out a third of their own population when they bombard Korhal because a single politician got uppity.

I saw that more from the transition from SC1 to SC2, given the number of terrans killed in SC1. Hell, the WoL invasion alone killed 8 billion people, yet HotS made it seem like that was largely negligible.

[Visions of Khas]

Its like they want to play with the same scale of destruction as WarHammer 40K, but the lighter tone doesn't mesh well with that kind of grim dark.

[Mislagnissa]

The starcraft feats thread on spacebattles makes starcraft sound like a typical warzone in warhammer 40k.

To whit, the Zerg have undergone trillions of years worth of evolution, their acid corrodes whatever exotic matter shields and archons are made of, and their neural parasites are able to hijack robots and archons.

I'm really surprised that transhumanism isn't commonplace considering the ridiculously advanced Terrans are descended from cybernetically enhanced mutant criminals who use mass cloning to increase their population.

[Visions of Khas]

Oh, no doubt. Starcraft has the potential for a serious, grimdark tone, but Blizzard's too intent on turning it into a cartoon. And I would love to see a grimdark Statecraft. The Imperium of Man is too vast to fall (recent Robot Girlyman- related developments included). But the terran presence in the Koprulu Sector was originally set up to be significantly smaller, their state more precarious, all founded on the wastelands of the galaxy. Between the political struggles, and being caught between the protoss and zerg, I felt things were more tense and desperate for terrans. Then, enter SCII, and they've got lush, human- friendly worlds surrounding fucking Coruscant!!

Terran military assets aren't as potent as the religio-mechanical technology of the Imperium.

[ragnarok]

Its like they want to play with the same scale of destruction as WarHammer 40K, but the lighter tone doesn't mesh well with that kind of grim dark.

What's the scale on WH40K like?

[Turalyon]

Then, enter SCII, and they've got lush, human- friendly worlds surrounding fucking Coruscant!!

Now that you mention it, the progress of Starcrafts "atmosphere" is a lot like how Star Wars progressed. Sc1 is like the original SW trilogy in all its grit and charm and Sc2 is like the prequel SW trilogy with all its empty flashiness.

[Visions of Khas]

What's the scale on WH40K like?

Galactic (https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/eb/ef/56/ebef5688aab0ece93a64976d2b7f7d94.jpg).

The original StarCraft and its manual painted the picture of a relatively small, sparsely populated territory on the galaxy's fringe, encompassing dead and hostile worlds. This is what helped start my passion for StarCraft: the feeling of a relatively more intimate setting.

By contrast, the WH40K setting encompasses the entire Milky Way; whole worlds live and die. While there are hundreds of worlds in the 40K universe, many have a lot of history and lore behind them, meaning that at least someone is going to care if, say, Cadia (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Cadia)is destroyed by the Eye of Terror (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Eye_of_Terror). Speaking of which, Games Workshop has been willing to drastically alter the geography of the galaxy (http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Great_Rift), essentially cutting it in two after the Eye of Terror's growth spurt. Yeah, a lot of worlds were reinforced afterwards (http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Indomitus_Crusade), but the setting's tone helps push a sense of urgency.

Back in StarCraft, Mar Sara, Chau Sara, and Braxis are all back up and running with nary a change or complaint by the citizens. Yeah, "8 billion" died at the start of Wings of Liberty, but I was simply left with the thought, "Who now?" That number had NO BEARING on events that followed. They don't even have the excuse of Hive cities churning out people in their millions to compensate for that loss. It's a figure that comes and goes in the same breath, and is used as a hammer to drive home the point to the audience, "Hey, shit's getting real"; but due to the ephemeral, impermanent nature of the setting, it really means nothing.


Now that you mention it, the progress of Starcrafts "atmosphere" is a lot like how Star Wars progressed. Sc1 is like the original SW trilogy in all its grit and charm and Sc2 is like the prequel SW trilogy with all its empty flashiness.


Oh. Oh Christ. Does that make the Void StarCraft's midichlorians? Does that make Kerrigan Jar-Jar?

[Mislagnissa]

On the low end of the spectrum, the Dominion should be defenseless against any future invasions unless they have enslaved a lot of Zerg broods to protect them.

On the high end of the spectrum, the Dominion should be churning out armies of clones.

[ragnarok]

On the low end of the spectrum, the Dominion should be defenseless against any future invasions unless they have enslaved a lot of Zerg broods to protect them.

On the high end of the spectrum, the Dominion should be churning out armies of clones.

The cloning part is something I had hoped for because I was hoping this could have been part of the deal Duran offered Mengsk

[Nolanstar]

The cloning I can easily see as just coming with the freaking colony ships, or being simple enough given terran medical tech (combat drugs as extensive as reaper ones and medical nanobots, not to mention being able to do surgical procedures via low-flying craft...)

[Turalyon]

Oh. Oh Christ. Does that make the Void StarCraft's midichlorians? Does that make Kerrigan Jar-Jar?

"No! This vision! I cannot bear it, stop!" :p

[ragnarok]

The cloning I can easily see as just coming with the freaking colony ships, or being simple enough given terran medical tech (combat drugs as extensive as reaper ones and medical nanobots, not to mention being able to do surgical procedures via low-flying craft...)

If only they had tried to explain this in better detail in the game and everything.

[Mislagnissa]

The cloning I can easily see as just coming with the freaking colony ships, or being simple enough given terran medical tech (combat drugs as extensive as reaper ones and medical nanobots, not to mention being able to do surgical procedures via low-flying craft...)

Terrans canonically have nanofabricators and reprogram personalities a la the Dollhouse show. I wouldn't be surprised if they can mass produce functional people like in that Resident Evil movie where Michelle Rodriguez dies twice.

[ragnarok]

Terrans canonically have nanofabricators and reprogram personalities a la the Dollhouse show. I wouldn't be surprised if they can mass produce functional people like in that Resident Evil movie where Michelle Rodriguez dies twice.

Then Amon should have renamed Moebius as his personal Umbrella corporation after enslaving them

[Visions of Khas]

Then Amon should have renamed Moebius as his personal Umbrella corporation after enslaving them

How am I only now realizing that Stukov should have punched a boulder to defeat Duran?!

[ragnarok]

How am I only now realizing that Stukov should have punched a boulder to defeat Duran?!

*shrugs* You just didn't think of it before hand, it's perfectly fine. I'm sure others didn't until recently either.

[KaiserStratosTygo]

Kerrigan = Jar Jar confirmed.

[ragnarok]

Kerrigan = Jar Jar confirmed.

*facepalm* Not happening

[Mislagnissa]

The dates in the official timeline are highly suspect. Blizzard expects us to believe that the Great War lasted a total of six months.

In fact, a number of writers have assumed that it literally takes seconds for Zerg to produce units and structures (and typically forget the fuel requirements). This is absurd, since the Terran and Protoss could never keep up with that. Even Tassadar's suicide attack would have failed because his carrier would have exploded in orbit due to hitting so many Zerg on the way.

The manga has a much more believable depiction, where it takes a month to establish a hive cluster before it begins its assaults on nearby targets.

[ragnarok]

The dates in the official timeline are highly suspect. Blizzard expects us to believe that the Great War lasted a total of six months.

In fact, a number of writers have assumed that it literally takes seconds for Zerg to produce units and structures (and typically forget the fuel requirements). This is absurd, since the Terran and Protoss could never keep up with that. Even Tassadar's suicide attack would have failed because his carrier would have exploded in orbit due to hitting so many Zerg on the way.

The manga has a much more believable depiction, where it takes a month to establish a hive cluster before it begins its assaults on nearby targets.

Then they should have added in a detail saying that only the best of the best in terms of zerg production is kept, the rest are discarded. They kind of tried to explain this via the Ultralisk lore in SC2.

[Mislagnissa]

How long do you guys suppose the Great War actually lasted if treated remotely realistically?

In canon the Fall of Tarsonis is literally 24 hours, during which half the pop (1+ billion) are evacuated.

We can base a realistic time frame on the amount of time it would take to evacuate a billion people. During 9/11 on modern Earth, it took 9 hours to evacuate 500k in New York by sea (largest in history).

For Tarsonis, this translates to an absolute minimum of two years divided by how many New York-sized cities it has that were able to evacuate. At the same time, they have to deal with ravenous zerg trying to eat everyone. The only this makes sense is if the Zerg let them escape for a month.

[ragnarok]

How long do you guys suppose the Great War actually lasted if treated remotely realistically?

In canon the Fall of Tarsonis is literally 24 hours, during which half the pop (1+ billion) are evacuated.

We can base a realistic time frame on the amount of time it would take to evacuate a billion people. During 9/11 on modern Earth, it took 9 hours to evacuate 500k in New York by sea (largest in history).

For Tarsonis, this translates to an absolute minimum of two years divided by how many New York-sized cities it has that were able to evacuate. At the same time, they have to deal with ravenous zerg trying to eat everyone. The only this makes sense is if the Zerg let them escape for a month.

Are you sure on the evacuated numbers? I don't recall the lore saying how many actually escaped the planet.

[Mislagnissa]

The blizzard site says 2 billion died, but doesn't say how many lived on the planet total. I've seen the half figure given for how many died/evacuated but never any source for it.

It's still physically impossible to kill that many people so quickly using only ground troops and air support. It's more likely that they all died of dehydration due to damaged infrastructure.

But the amount of death is still ridiculously high as we said before.

[Turalyon]

How long do you guys suppose the Great War actually lasted if treated remotely realistically?

Given the amount of destruction that could be wrought by both the Protoss and Zerg, 6 months would be a long time for such a war to last. Moreso if the populations in the K sector aren't in the billions.


In canon the Fall of Tarsonis is literally 24 hours, during which half the pop (1+ billion) are evacuated.

That's clearly a retcon. The largest Zerg Brood, Tiamat was only estimated to be 6.5 million (source: manual), with many other broods not even figuring into the millions. It stands to reason that if the Zerg were considered to be outnumbering their opposition even with the numbers in the low millions, Tarsonis cannot have 1 billion people (or in other words, 153 times more than the largest Zerg brood...).

[ragnarok]

The blizzard site says 2 billion died, but doesn't say how many lived on the planet total. I've seen the half figure given for how many died/evacuated but never any source for it.

It's still physically impossible to kill that many people so quickly using only ground troops and air support. It's more likely that they all died of dehydration due to damaged infrastructure.

But the amount of death is still ridiculously high as we said before.

I thought 2 billion was just the TOTAL Tarsonis population. Then again it's been a while since I looked at the site, I'll go check again soon.