Overmind's Vision

[Gradius]

When the game came out, the Overmind's vision was basically seen as actual future precognition. Then in a Q&A that came out during the HoTS era, Blizzard (Brian Kindregan HoTS lead writer) said that it was literally just the Overmind piecing information together and constructing a scenario from reading Amon's mind. Then presumably, Zeratul added his own knowledge to the vision since there are protoss characters in it that the Overmind has never met.

But then in LoTV we see Artanis and Amon reusing the same exact lines like "As I was your beginning-so shall I be your end." and Artanis gives a nearly identical variation of his speech:


WoL: My brethren, hear me! For there is little time left. All that remains of our race, our civilization, are those that stand beside you now.


LoTV: My Brethren, hear me! For there is little time left. All that remains of our race, our civilization, are those that stand beside you now, and those corrupted on the surface below.

WoL: Trust in each other. Strike as one will! Let our last stand burn a memory so bright, we will be remembered forever! En taro Tassadar!


LoTV: Trust in each other in the fight ahead. Strike as one will! Let our last stand burn a memory so bright that we will be known throughout eternity! En Taro Adun! En Taro Tassadar! En Taro Zeratul!


So wtf really was this?

[KaiserStratosTygo]

Ouros and Amon had a secret deal, it was all a conspiracy to get some dumb bitch to do their jobs for them.

and also Artanis is a cliche' tornado.

[Turalyon]

In universe, it's probably just a coincidence or that circumstantial but arbitrary precognition does exist in some form.

Out of universe, it's most likely an overt writers conceit. Either a deliberate callback to WoL or a lazy rehash, take your pick.

[Nissa]

I bet deliberate callback. They'd want us to think that they're "clever" like that.

[ragnarok]

So wtf really was this?

We already know too many people are going to say "Because Blizzard was too stupid to pay any attention, Gradius."



Ouros and Amon had a secret deal, it was all a conspiracy to get some dumb bitch to do their jobs for them.

and also Artanis is a cliche' tornado.

More like Ouros tried to sneak the message out, except he was too stupid to realize speaking with clues THAT cryptic isn't something people can recognize right off the bat.


I bet deliberate callback. They'd want us to think that they're "clever" like that.

This. I'm willing to bet after HotS, too many people felt Blizzard didn't pay the slightest bit attention to what happened in SC1, BW, or even WoL in terms of story, hence why it was necessary to at least look at the prophecy missions in WoL again when it came to LotV.

[TcheQuevara]

Precognition isn't against the spirit of sci-fi. It's information traveling back in time, or perception traveling foward in time, or minds trying to cope with time as non-linear.

But even if we go with the "prophecy is a result of mechanical determinism" cop-out, it is still possible because Protoss personalities are predictable (if compared to Terrans) and because Artanis lines might be partially inspired in other historical speeches or in Khalai literature.

However prophecies can be an awful plot device, as they were. This is a completely different issue.

As for Kindregan, it's clear Blizzard decided to take other directions after he departed. Artanis "repeating" almost the same lines he would say in another timeline is good writing. At worst, it conflicts with the Q&As which is a flop but not a major one.

And I think the themes of fate and time could and should be more probed in a sci-fi way. I think that between Terrans and Protoss there is a difference of scale - they live ten times longer, are calmer and more focused, their technology is marvelous and their science is close to understanding everything in the universe. So between Protoss an Xel'Naga there must be another difference in scale. This can only be accomplished taking a step further from physics to metaphysics, but I feel this is only hinted and not well actualized in LotV.

[Turalyon]

It just occurred to me that that the repeated lines may also be a hold-out of the original concept of LotV having Zeratul as the protagonist. It would be a form of retrospective dramatic irony because when Z said those lines in WoL, it was at the Protoss' ultimate defeat to Amon whereas in LotV, it would be at the Protoss' ultimate victory over Amon.

I would also guess that the "Overmind's vision" may well have been really Ouros' vision the entire time. Ouros, in the guise of "Tassadar", is the one who tells Zeratul about seeing the Overmind's vision afterall. I mean, if Ouros can't even trust Zeratul to believe his words such that he has to lie by pretending to be Tassadar, who knows how deep his lies go and whether we should believe everything he says.... By recalling those words in WoL, it may be a way to show that Ouros does indeed have some precognitive ability, to give some credence to the prophecy plot device and a demonstration that the Xel'Naga have godlike power/are gods rather than it being an informed trait as it mostly is. At the least, it's also a way to show that there are some deterministic qualities to precognition.

[ragnarok]

It just occurred to me that that the repeated lines may also be a hold-out of the original concept of LotV having Zeratul as the protagonist. It would be a form of retrospective dramatic irony because when Z said those lines in WoL, it was at the Protoss' ultimate defeat to Amon whereas in LotV, it would be at the Protoss' ultimate victory over Amon.

I would also guess that the "Overmind's vision" may well have been really Ouros' vision the entire time. Ouros, in the guise of "Tassadar", is the one who tells Zeratul about seeing the Overmind's vision afterall. I mean, if Ouros can't even trust Zeratul to believe his words such that he has to lie by pretending to be Tassadar, who knows how deep his lies go and whether we should believe everything he says.... By recalling those words in WoL, it may be a way to show that Ouros does indeed have some precognitive ability, to give some credence to the prophecy plot device and a demonstration that the Xel'Naga have godlike power/are gods rather than it being an informed trait as it mostly is. At the least, it's also a way to show that there are some deterministic qualities to precognition.

That's only because in the alternate timeline the Protoss didn't find out the truth until it was too late to matter. And in any case in LotV's ending (before epilogue) it was never a victory over Amon anyway. Artanis made it clear that since he was sent back into the Void, it only meant that FOR NOW, the Protoss were safe.

As for the Overmind's vision being actually Ouros's vision, it actually depends. Recall at the end of the 2nd Ulnar mission, when Artanis and Kerrigan finally reached the Ascension chamber to find all the Xel'Naga dead, Amon contacted Artanis, saying "With the essence of the great betrayer, your people fulfill their purpose."

The "great betrayer" had to imply the Overmind, since his host body was built on top of it. Of course this could just be Blizzard writing problems, but it could imply the Overmind DID try in some way to defy Amon's directive.

[Turalyon]

^ Be that as it may, I fail to see how what you said has anything to do with whether or not the Overmind's vision has actual precognitive value.

[ragnarok]

^ Be that as it may, I fail to see how what you said has anything to do with whether or not the Overmind's vision has actual precognitive value.

If the Overmind DID plan to betray Amon, then he must have known what Amon planned to do to him once the swarm fulfilled its purpose. This goes back to what I had said before LotV was even out, that the vision we saw in WoL was what Overmind felt would probably happen if the Protoss killed Kerrigan off without bothering to look at the prophecy.

[Turalyon]

If the Overmind DID plan to betray Amon, then he must have known what Amon planned to do to him once the swarm fulfilled its purpose. This goes back to what I had said before LotV was even out, that the vision we saw in WoL was what Overmind felt would probably happen if the Protoss killed Kerrigan off without bothering to look at the prophecy.

Knowing something bad is probably going to happen as a consequence of betrayal is just plain inference/deduction, not precognition. Grad has implied that the vision potentially has some precognitive value (I've stated that it could also just be mere coincidence) because some lines are repeated almost verbatim.

Also, it is unknown whether the Overmind knows anything about this "prophecy" anyway. Even if it did, the how does it know and why of it forever eludes us. LotV potentially answers this plothole by inferring that the "Overmind's vision" was all due to Ouros. Afterall, Ouros is supposed to be an actual godlike being with godlike powers (like precognition), whose people (if not he himself) are responsible for the prophecy (a thing that predicates itself on precognition) in the first place.

In retrospect, Ouros (as "Tassadar") lies to Zeratul in a few instances in order to manipulate him into his end goal of saving and bringing in his preferred vessel for his essence transfer (Kerrigan) by pretending to be Tassadar, saying that Tassadar never died and claims to not know who enslaved the Overmind or why. With Ouros' nature as being deceitful confirmed, it's difficult to know what he says to Z in Echoes of the Future can be taken at face value at all. The Overmind vision he speaks of could just as easily be Ouros' "vision" - a concoction not steeped wholly in truth (hence the possibility of the vision being partially precognitive in some aspects) but ultimately, as a means to get what he wants.

[Visions of Khas]

As the story's evolved over the years, I ignored some comments and explanation by the writers between the installments, and rationalized it this way:

The Overmind operates as the central processing unit for the overarching Zerg network. It has countless millions of individual units, giving it unparalleled processing power. It is thus capable of integrating information and arriving at conclusions impossible for humans, or perhaps even protoss. Essentially, it's a massive computer with immense predictive capacity. It could simulate multiple timelines and deduce the most likely outcome.

Then at the end of LotV... Ourous did it. :| But, being from the Void, Ourous is outside our understanding of space and time, and this harkens back to Zeratul's own quote from The Fall: "You speak of knowledge, Judicator? You speak of experience? I have journeyed through the darkness between the most distant stars. I have beheld the births of negative-suns and borne witness to the entropy of entire realities... Unto my experience, Aldaris, all that you've built here on Aiur is but a fleeting dream." Zeratul's attunement to the Void gave him pseudo-prophetic power.

... but the epilogue itself doesn't really support that. :|

[ragnarok]

As the story's evolved over the years, I ignored some comments and explanation by the writers between the installments, and rationalized it this way:

The Overmind operates as the central processing unit for the overarching Zerg network. It has countless millions of individual units, giving it unparalleled processing power. It is thus capable of integrating information and arriving at conclusions impossible for humans, or perhaps even protoss. Essentially, it's a massive computer with immense predictive capacity. It could simulate multiple timelines and deduce the most likely outcome.

Then at the end of LotV... Ourous did it. :| But, being from the Void, Ourous is outside our understanding of space and time, and this harkens back to Zeratul's own quote from The Fall: "You speak of knowledge, Judicator? You speak of experience? I have journeyed through the darkness between the most distant stars. I have beheld the births of negative-suns and borne witness to the entropy of entire realities... Unto my experience, Aldaris, all that you've built here on Aiur is but a fleeting dream." Zeratul's attunement to the Void gave him pseudo-prophetic power.

... but the epilogue itself doesn't really support that. :|

Yeah but most people felt the epilogue was just something they threw together as fast as they could just for the sake to try to show the Xel'Naga, they should have redone it.

[Turalyon]

The Overmind operates as the central processing unit for the overarching Zerg network. It has countless millions of individual units, giving it unparalleled processing power. It is thus capable of integrating information and arriving at conclusions impossible for humans, or perhaps even protoss. Essentially, it's a massive computer with immense predictive capacity. It could simulate multiple timelines and deduce the most likely outcome.

Sounds like something the Geth could do, not the Overmind. Also, this has the implication of the Overmind being infallible. As Sc1 alone shows, it clearly was not.


Then at the end of LotV... Ourous did it. :| But, being from the Void, Ourous is outside our understanding of space and time, and this harkens back to Zeratul's own quote from The Fall: "You speak of knowledge, Judicator? You speak of experience? I have journeyed through the darkness between the most distant stars. I have beheld the births of negative-suns and borne witness to the entropy of entire realities... Unto my experience, Aldaris, all that you've built here on Aiur is but a fleeting dream." Zeratul's attunement to the Void gave him pseudo-prophetic power.

... but the epilogue itself doesn't really support that. :|

Well, it's actually more internally consistent/logical (for Sc2, that is) if it all originates from Ouros, because he's part of the "Xel'Naga are magical space gods" conceit that Sc2 introduces.

The quote from Zerry there doesn't really play into that. It's really just a poetic, but very affecting and effective, fluff to say he's seen/experienced stuff (much like Roy Batty's final monologue in Blade Runner) as well as a "You know nothing, Jon Snow!"-like burn against Aldaris.

[KaiserStratosTygo]

Ragnarok! Where have you been?

[TheEconomist]

I have Ragnarok blocked. I haven't ready any of his posts in a long, long time and I haven't read this one.

Yet I'd be willing to bet that the message has either a statement of what he thinks people really think about some aspect of StarCraft or some irrelevant, needless defense of Blizzard/StarCraft mixed with a half-hearted concession that it didn't live up to expectations but wasn't really all that bad ... or both

How close am I?

[KaiserStratosTygo]

I have Ragnarok blocked. I haven't ready any of his posts in a long, long time and I haven't read this one.

Yet I'd be willing to bet that the message has either a statement of what he thinks people really think about some aspect of StarCraft or some irrelevant, needless defense of Blizzard/StarCraft mixed with a half-hearted concession that it didn't live up to expectations but wasn't really all that bad ... or both

How close am I?


Do you even need to ask?

99.9% accurate.

[ragnarok]

Ragnarok! Where have you been?

I've had other things on my mind, so let's just say "elsewhere."

[Turalyon]

Ragnarok! Where have you been?


I've had other things on my mind, so let's just say "elsewhere."

Nah Rag, the correct response to the question is this: "Be silent, Kaiser. There is no time to waste, and I have much to tell you. As you know, the SC forums vanished after a time, and though my Ragginess bid me return, I was compelled to remain silent." ;)

[Turalyon]

whoops, double post.

[ragnarok]

Nah Rag, the correct response to the question is this: "Be silent, Kaiser. There is no time to waste, and I have much to tell you. As you know, the SCL forums and interest in anything to do with SC lore vanished after a time, and though my Ragginess bid me return, I was compelled to remain silent." ;)

Not funny, and that's not something I'd say to him.

[Turalyon]

Not funny

Turn that :( upside down.


and that's not something I'd say to him.

"Yeah, but you were thinking it." ;)

[ragnarok]

"Yeah, but you were thinking it." ;)

Actually no I wasn't.


Turn that upside down.

You need to wait another 16 days to say that, when Injustice 2 comes out.

[TheEconomist]

Still haven't read your posts, but I know everything you're saying.

So, keep on raggin'!

[ragnarok]

Now yes Tura, you could argue what I said for the 1st Injustice game too, but that's been out for years anyway and therefore is meh.

[TheEconomist]

I'm sandwiched between two Rag posts, therefore, I'm guessing that's a needless post in response to something he's already responded too just so he can spam the forum without actually engaging me.

How am I doing? 2 for 2?

[ragnarok]

Oh and just so you know Tura, if you want to argue this because of the Injustice 1 clashes, that's fine too since we don't know all the Injustice 2 ones.

[TheEconomist]

Hmmmm, two-time sandwiched ... Hmmm ... He's either responding to me directly for once or rambling incoherently more than usual .. I'll stick to the statistically probable and guess that he's still just rambling incoherently without irrelevant, trivial nonsense.

[ragnarok]

Well, it's actually more internally consistent/logical (for Sc2, that is) if it all originates from Ouros, because he's part of the "Xel'Naga are magical space gods" conceit that Sc2 introduces.


Oh yeah, I never once felt SC2 was trying to give the message of them being space gods. If that was the case Ouros shouldn't have even been captured in the first place. It's not like he had too much power of his own or something

[Turalyon]

Oh yeah, I never once felt SC2 was trying to give the message of them being space gods.

I don't know if you're in denial, purposefully trolling or just plain suck at comprehending what the game clearly tells you.

The Prophecy cinematic in WoL has Zeratul monologue this right at the start: "The Zerg Swarm came as was foretold. And the Protoss, first born of the gods, rose to fight them. Now the Xel'Naga that forged us all, are returning".


If that was the case Ouros shouldn't have even been captured in the first place. It's not like he had too much power of his own or something

This reasoning makes no sense. Ouros was trapped by another of his own kin, not some "lesser being". It'd take a god to capture god - as Ouros admits to explain the plight you see him in. I mean heck, the whole climax to the epilogue of LotV is about granting Kerrigan the power of a god (Ouros), so that she can even be able to kill another god (Amon).

[TheEconomist]

Oh yeah, I never once felt SC2 was trying to give the message of them being space gods.

When the Cthulhu showed up, I mean Ouros, you should've seen differently.

Also, the Xel'Naga being godlike, at least to the Zerg and Protoss, has been obvious since the first few trailers.\


Cue Turalyon

[ragnarok]

This reasoning makes no sense. Ouros was trapped by another of his own kin, not some "lesser being". It'd take a god to capture god - as Ouros admits to explain the plight you see him in. I mean heck, the whole climax to the epilogue of LotV is about granting Kerrigan the power of a god (Ouros), so that she can even be able to kill another god (Amon).

Which didn't make any sense because Stukov was able to kill Duran just fine, proving the Xel'Naga aren't gods at all, unless Amon was something unique. They should have tried to explain this better in the game.

[drakolobo]

Izha points out that old kerrigan had the vision of zerg extinction and therefore was preparing for a great war (this explains in turn the remission of zerg activities between starcraft 1 and 2) so it can be assumed that kerrigan had access To the vision of the overmind, so this was real

[drakolobo]

.....

[Nissa]

I'm kinda suspicious that the whole Xel'Naga being "gods" thing had different intentions in SC1. Like, when Tassadar talks about the "experiments" that the Xel'Naga were doing, it was supposed to be the beginning of a plot arc wherein the Xel'Naga are supposedly gods (as so believed by Aldaris and other Aiuran 'Toss), but then through the process of later games they're supposed to get found out as something rather less than -- more than likely powerful beings who are simply using the the Zerg and 'Toss to do as they please for some big purpose.

That was the impression I got from SC vanilla, anyway. It's not like the game hard-confirms that the Protoss saw the Xel'Naga as gods. SC2, on the other hand...eh, they don't seem like gods, just more powerful beings. Maybe like that whole humanistic, Star Trek-ish point where eventually races become so advanced, they appear god-like.

[TheEconomist]

Gods don't experiment. They design. The original Xel'Naga were tinkering scientists, not grand scheming deities.

[ragnarok]

Izha points out that old kerrigan had the vision of zerg extinction and therefore was preparing for a great war (this explains in turn the remission of zerg activities between starcraft 1 and 2) so it can be assumed that kerrigan had access To the vision of the overmind, so this was real

Unlikely. We didn't really get that idea at the end of BW, all we got was she expected something on the horizon. Of course, depending on just how much she gained from the Overmind's memories, which I doubt was all that much since back then that was never her created purpose....

[Undeadprotoss]

Gods don't experiment. They design. The original Xel'Naga were tinkering scientists, not grand scheming deities.

That's a really good point about their characterization. A lot of clues in the manual pointed towards their own mortality. The nascent Zerg overcoming them, the highly advanced yet vulnerable temples they left behind, and of course their many past failures with creating the "perfect species".

[ragnarok]

That's a really good point about their characterization. A lot of clues in the manual pointed towards their own mortality. The nascent Zerg overcoming them, the highly advanced yet vulnerable temples they left behind, and of course their many past failures with creating the "perfect species".

It also showed their limitations in seeing things, if they had looked harder they would have seen the Overmind would ultimately turn on them, but they were too caught up in their "proud accomplishment" for it.

[Turalyon]

Which didn't make any sense because Stukov was able to kill Duran just fine, proving the Xel'Naga aren't gods at all, unless Amon was something unique.

We're not really sure Duran was actually dead for real though. Afterall, Kerrigan killed Duran in HotS as well. Also, the "death" of Duran comes before the reveal from Ouros that only a Xel'Naga can kill another Xel'Naga...


They should have tried to explain this better in the game.

Finally, something we can both agree upon!

[Undeadprotoss]

It also showed their limitations in seeing things, if they had looked harder they would have seen the Overmind would ultimately turn on them, but they were too caught up in their "proud accomplishment" for it.

Huzzah! That's interesting, making the species flawed like that kind make them seem all the more intriguing. I really wonder how they pictured the Xel'Naga, how they originally looked like.

[ragnarok]

We're not really sure Duran was actually dead for real though. Afterall, Kerrigan killed Duran in HotS as well. Also, the "death" of Duran comes before the reveal from Ouros that only a Xel'Naga can kill another Xel'Naga...



Hence the reason for my idea gathering that Duran could still be alive and everything.


Huzzah! That's interesting, making the species flawed like that kind make them seem all the more intriguing. I really wonder how they pictured the Xel'Naga, how they originally looked like.

I'm not sure they were exactly thinking that by the time of SC1, then by SC2 they didn't know what to do, so they went the lazy route to have Amon have no real form and all that.

But ultimately they were forced to realize after all the stress they put on the xel'naga since WoL, they couldn't just end of the series without showing them at all.

[Turalyon]

Huzzah! That's interesting, making the species flawed like that kind make them seem all the more intriguing. I really wonder how they pictured the Xel'Naga, how they originally looked like.

The Xel'Naga were originally depicted in the manual backstory as the flawed, "playing god and damned-be-the-consequences" scientists that they always were (until the retcon of the Inifinite Cycle in the EU came along that is). Their "failure" with the Protoss should have imparted a moral lesson for them to not attempt to play god and to be more careful in what they wish for. Their subsequent "success" with the Zerg imparted the same exact lesson they ignored the first time, but with more dire consequences. Oh, the irony.


Hence the reason for my idea gathering that Duran could still be alive and everything.

Hence the reason your own original argument and "proof" that the Xel'naga aren't gods is nonsense because you just invalidated it, all by yourself.

[ragnarok]

Hence the reason your own original argument and "proof" that the Xel'naga aren't gods is nonsense because you just invalidated it, all by yourself.

I never saw them as gods, not by the time of SC2. For all of WoL and HotS they were all talk and no action, hardly the characteristics of a deity.

[Turalyon]

I never saw them as gods, not by the time of SC2. For all of WoL and HotS they were all talk and no action, hardly the characteristics of a deity.

Living abnormally long lives without aging, having the power to manipulate and create life to their own whim/ends/advantage, drawing "power" from some magical nether world and being able to still live despite being "dead" are but some of their capabilities. All of which are revealed during Sc2. This isn't even mentioning all the religious overtones of anything that even relates to them.

Besides, it's not about what you see or want to see, but what the writers/the game wants you to see the Xel'Naga as. It's clear Blizz intended the Xel'Naga to be considered as gods ever since they introduced the Infinite Cycle retcon in the EU, whether you see it or not.

[ragnarok]

Besides, it's not about what you see or want to see, but what the writers/the game wants you to see the Xel'Naga as. It's clear Blizz intended the Xel'Naga to be considered as gods ever since they introduced the Infinite Cycle retcon in the EU, whether you see it or not.

Which they didn't do a very good job at, since actions are supposed to speak louder than words. In that regard perhaps you can argue Amon did a better job because he actually tried doing something, compared to Ouros who gave cryptic messages which did little more than confuse people until it was almost too late to matter.

[Turalyon]

Which they didn't do a very good job at, since actions are supposed to speak louder than words.


Living abnormally long lives without aging, having the power to manipulate and create life to their own whim/ends/advantage, drawing "power" from some magical nether world and being able to still live despite being "dead" are but some of their capabilities. All of which are revealed during Sc2. This isn't even mentioning all the religious overtones of anything that even relates to them.

If you define a "good job" in terms of showing/action rather than telling/via words, then Sc2 has done just that.

[ragnarok]

If you define a "good job" in terms of showing/action rather than telling/via words, then Sc2 has done just that.

*shrugs* Blizzard did treat the audience as a bit too stupid to figure things out, but maybe they felt unless they actually showed it instead of just hinting/implying/telling it, there'd be cynical fans who'd just accuse Blizzard of never being specific and therefore can twist everything in a whole new direction for the next SC game.

Which, I'm expecting them to do anyway. Certainly in the case with the Void, unless Blizzard actually releases new lore books/short stories or something to show the place isn't just where you can obtain magical powers from thin air.

[Turalyon]

But they did show that the Xel'Naga (albeit through Amon mainly) are gods/godlike in Sc2. Ultimately, the only overarching plot that even remotely ties Sc2 as a trilogy is about the foresight and plans of one god (Amon) being eventually thwarted by the foresight and plans of another god (Ouros).

[ragnarok]

But they did show that the Xel'Naga (albeit through Amon mainly) are gods/godlike in Sc2. Ultimately, the only overarching plot that even remotely ties Sc2 as a trilogy is about the foresight and plans of one god (Amon) being eventually thwarted by the foresight and plans of another god (Ouros).

Maybe for Amon, Ouros is another matter. If nothing else they should have also explained just what limitations Amon put on Ouros in the Void where he could do nothing but give very cryptic messages.