Exercise 01: Establishing the Status Quo

[GnaReffotsirk]

Let's start considering where our story starts from. Then later we can start considering what the end is. This is a discussion of static story points that will be included in the community project.

Terran Sector

History:

The major factions have taken their places during the confederacy. The Dominion has replaced the Confederacy, and has since turned the sector into a military machine. In a sense, the Dominion represents the rise of the Military industrial complex.

The arrival of the UED and the subsequent defeat of the Dominion, led to:
1. the confiscation of the majority of Dominion held infrastructure, weapons, ships, armaments, and personnel.
2. manufacturing, mining, research, farming, and most industries have been conscripted (in a way) into the UED. To avoid economic problems, the business minded factions agreed to supply the UED whatever they needed. It was a totalitarian rule, but short lived.
3. increase in piracy, smuggling, and crime in general. And also mercenary recruitment. Gangs, brotherhoods, mafias have become indispensable to citizens and big corporations. Sometimes they even pay mercs to steal their own cargo supply ships. Ships designated to supply the UED.

All this build up caused by the arrival of the UED has set things in motion in the Terran sector. When the Zerg destroys the UED fleet this occured:

1. Dominion military assets that were employed by the UED during the war has been destroyed.
2. While infrastructure remained intact, the UED has broken the economy. Factions now demand compensations, transfer of ownership. The state of the sector is in depression. Some who were smart enough were able to protect themselves from this. Loses where great as the UED bled everyone dry.
3. Dominion supporters, who lent Mengsk his little force, made up of criminals, mercs, and the sorts, during the joint assault against Kerrigan's zerg remained loyal to Mengsk.

Overall, the Terran sector is now in a depression. While the Dominion still claim to be the ruling party, things are absolutely not under their control. The sector has been divided, think Alexander and his death, and ruled by different factions, each one laying claim to territories as far as they are able to exert their influence.

Some would use force, some supply, to bend worlds to accommodate them and help to supplye what they need to meet their own goals.

Some worlds have their magistrates removed by their own populace. One world that was infested with criminal factions, has been overtaken by these criminal groups that have consolidated themselves, and built up enough support and infrastructure empowering themselves during the war, and with the loss of Dominion policing them, the UED mainly focused on the Zerg, they have claimed a planet of their own.

You get the picture.

- - - Updated - - -

[Zerg]

- - - Updated - - -

[Protoss]

[ragnarok]

Is this taking place during the BW still?

[Visions of Khas]

Wait, what is this?

[GnaReffotsirk]

yup. it assumes there was no sc2 yet. Nisa wanted to do a collab with everyone, so I made this thread to give it a try.

Please, don't hesistate..

[Nissa]

Oh, well, I meant that when you're ready, I'll would help nail out the dialogue. However, now that I know it is this....I am not displeased. I think a good way to start would be to consider the characters and decide where each one might be after BW.

Hm...let me take a bit to muse over the first post...

[Turalyon]

So we are to assume that Sc2 is going to happen within the context of this?

It will definitely be interesting to see how you can rationalise how the Dominion gets to be so powerful and stable in 4 years when you're actually recognising how deep a whole the Terrans are at the end of BW.

[GnaReffotsirk]

My thoughts lean toward not having the Dominion become the dominant faction, rather show how Arcturus forces everyone to believe in him again as the only guy who can drag everyone along.

I think this is more dramatic, the effort he must take, and what steps he must do given how he failed to live up to his promise, which is the very thing that made people allow him to direct the sector.

Consider how Mao Zedong rose into power, then imagine if New World Order police state from the future arrives during his time and slams its foot down.

[Visions of Khas]

My only input right now is for atmosphere and background world building. The Koprulu Sector was Space Australia - a distant penal colony for the religious, the genetically diverse, the radically progressive. I originally saw it as Chiba in Neuromancer: a semi-controlled petri dish of technological, biological, and cultural evolution on crack; the most useful advancements were exploited by corporate powers, and human life was rarely a priority. This would stand in stolid contrast to the "purity" of the human form and essence of the UED.

I always enjoyed the thought of ragtag bands pooling together resources to stand against the harsh, unforgiving climates of the Koprulu worlds. Being on the outer rim of the galaxy, these are old worlds with harsh, ancient wisdom to teach.


Instead, StarCraft II gave us paradise worlds seemingly hand-crafted for human habitation, and there is no cultural, technological or bio-technological diversity whatsoever. Blizzard developed a stale, upright, unified terran society that I hardly think is appropriate for the original Starcraft setting. And rather than than the militias composed of and trained by hardened criminals in the original StarCraft, we got cookie-cutter toy soldiers.

[Nissa]

I respect your angle, Khas. I'll keep it in mind.

Okay, let's talk. First of all, I really love Gna's basis, and it's a great analysis. Very good place to start. I would like to add some things to it.

First of all, Umoja and Moria. Both of these factions are going to have become stronger post-BW, because Kerrigan's anti-Mengsk bias means that the Dominion (and for that matter, the UED) took the most damage during BW. Moria especially should become the most powerful faction, but likewise not terribly interested in fighting. It wants to preserve itself more than anything else, and is taking the opportunity to strengthen its holdings and spread out its resource gathering now that Kerrigan is, by all appearances, on a break. Given that the Combine is composed of guilds rather than being fully centralized, it should be filled with people who naturally resist any form of a Mengsk-like or UED-like government. If they suffer any large attack during our version of SCII, they should be able to form splinter groups very easily.

As for Umoja, I have less inspiration, but while it is strengthened, it is not as large as the Kel-Morian Combine. It is centralized, but tries simply to hold onto the few worlds it has, hoping that by bunkering down it will survive other wars. Umojans should have very strong patrotic ties, and possibly a close relationship with Raynor, if we like that angle.

As for what remains of the Dominion, Khas' general idea is the best. It is now a politically diverse cluster of varying groups with no real unity besides assorted relationships between factions that might have worked together before, or all remain on a single planet. Some of these groups would be interested in rebuilding the Dominion, and Mengskie-poo should be involved, but not the only person trying to lead again. I would like to see a return of Mengsk being more personally involved in bad stuff, rather than just being conqured or tagging along on someone else's adventure. It is my suggestion to do the Terran missions primarily from the perspective of Mengsk and his followers. We would see involvement of Mengsk's political competitors (maybe missions to kill them), Protoss Mengsk is negotiating with, and if we like, a Raynor appearance. Mengsk should also be violently angry if the Zerg are mentioned, like he's got this personal grudge against Kerrigan, and the slightest move of Zerg beyond certain borders causes him to immediately go into action. Revenge against Kerri is now a primary motivator for him.

As for other factions in the former Dominion (groups maybe Mengsk could try to recruit), they are either independent or trying to form alliances of their own. Maybe some of them could be thinking about heading towards Earth, or even going into unexplored space to get away from it all.

Likewise, there should be a number of outworld planets that were never involved with Umoja/Moria/Korhal and are just doin' their own thing. I'd imagine some of them have close ties to the Protoss, such as uneasy alliances or silent non-aggression agreements. The Protoss allow them to live simply to create buffer pockets of defense, and will continue to do so as long as these planets remain uninterested in the major Terran factions.

[Nissa]

Okay, sorry for double post, but I'm going to continue to think out loud.

The Protoss are probably in the most complicated position. Their explicit and implicit storylines in BW clearly show that they are suffering. We may want to consider the passage of years in their regard. In any case, there should be none of that stupid Daelaam crap. They're factions, because factions are more interesting than everyone magically getting along, with a cliche-ridden message. Also, no robots, no Fenix, no secret Conclave-hidden technology buried underground, and no freaking preservers. I'd very much like to get rid of the Tal'darim, but I'll accept votes on that one. But just so you know, you're gonna have to sell me really, really hard for me to go along with that bullcrap. I'd really much rather stick with the factions we know and develop them more.

Alright, so when we left off from BW, Artie-fo-farty was in charge. As we all know, he was a young lad upon promotion, so he doesn't have a lot of respect compared to others. He, however, was chosen partially because of his situation: he was trained as a Templar, but lost his nerve cords on Aiur, and so became one of the first Aiur-born to actually dabble in Dark Templar stuff.

Note that this is a reference to his unit portrait in BW.

Okay, so there should immediately be a host of older characters, some possibly annoyed that this baby-baby is the big boss bass. There should be Dark Templar leaders, Khalai leaders, and maybe a civilian advisor or two who's really just there to make sure everyone on Shakuras has somewhere to live. Oh, and Templar too.

The situation on Aiur should be taken more seriously. For example, there should be people who have lived there since the exile, people who either really hate Dark Templar, or who can't bear to leave Aiur. Both, more'n likely. Artanis should know that these people are there, and make smaller runs to rescue regular survivors and/or supply those that absolutely refuse to leave. There should be a Templar advisor who has knowledge of what survivor groups they have come into contact with, also.

But we're gonna need to figure out what Kerrigan wants, if anything, to do with the Aiur Zerg. Everything kinda hinges on that.

I would like to have a discussion on other planets the Protoss hold. There's Shakuras and Aiur, but the manual claimed that the Protoss held one eighth of the Xel'Naga's original spread, so there should be more planets in there, somewhere.

I'd like to keep Zeratul on the sidelines as far as the plot goes. After BW I'd imagine his hunting for anything to do with hybrids takes up most of hi time, and he may or may not send back information, hinging on his ability to do so.

I'd go on, but I have to go to work soon. Yak at you later.

[Undeadprotoss]

yup. it assumes there was no sc2 yet. Nisa wanted to do a collab with everyone, so I made this thread to give it a try.

Please, don't hesistate..

HAH! I was just about to write a post titled 'What would a SC2 manual look like' with the same premise. Basically, 75 pages of lore just like in the original SC1 manual, in order to bridge the gap between the two games as if the current SC2 bad storytelling never occurred.

[GnaReffotsirk]

Nissa, nice post. I'll sit on your thoughts for a while. I'll make bullet points version here later.

[ragnarok]

HAH! I was just about to write a post titled 'What would a SC2 manual look like' with the same premise. Basically, 75 pages of lore just like in the original SC1 manual, in order to bridge the gap between the two games as if the current SC2 bad storytelling never occurred.

I wouldn't mind seeing it, certainly would be better than those who feel that since the whole of SC2 was useless, the whole SC2 manual lore would be just page after page of BS.

[Visions of Khas]

Mengsk should also be violently angry if the Zerg are mentioned, like he's got this personal grudge against Kerrigan, and the slightest move of Zerg beyond certain borders causes him to immediately go into action.
Hm, I like this angle. Mengsk was directly responsible for the Swarm's current strength. He essentially raised Kerrigan into the tactical and strategic leader she became, taught her subversion and intrigue. She was his protege. It was a moment of spite, offing the assassin of his father. But it was also a moment of hubris, too; being able to groom someone into a personal weapon, then cast her away as though she was nothing more than an object. So in his blunder on Korhal, he literally made his own worst enemy, creating a personal point of humiliation.

She was probably a personal experiment and project, utterly molding somebody into the best possible weapon, instilling her with absolute and utter loyalty. He probably thought to himself, "This little Kerrigan Project was just a taste of what I can do with this Sector, once it is under my control." And you know what, he thinks of it as a good thing; he sees his rise as justice -- justice for Korhal, justice for himself. And in a lot of ways, his militarization and unification of the Koprulu population probably helped save it against the Zerg, Protoss and UED. Nobody ever sees themselves as the villain of their story.


With this in mind, I've always thought Raynor and Mengsk saw themselves as opposites, but with more in common than either would admit. I expected more parallels between them in WoL. What are the lengths he will go to in order to defeat Mengsk? Will he resort to terrorist tactics? Will he train and indoctrinate somebody the way Mengsk worked Kerrigan?

[ragnarok]

Hm, I like this angle. Mengsk was directly responsible for the Swarm's current strength. He essentially raised Kerrigan into the tactical and strategic leader she became, taught her subversion and intrigue. She was his protege. It was a moment of spite, offing the assassin of his father. But it was also a moment of hubris, too; being able to groom someone into a personal weapon, then cast her away as though she was nothing more than an object. So in his blunder on Korhal, he literally made his own worst enemy, creating a personal point of humiliation.


Yes but no one knew that at the moment. Raynor fully expected (right after Tarsonis) that the zerg killed her. Mengsk too probably didn't think the zerg were anything more than just mindless animals anyway.


With this in mind, I've always thought Raynor and Mengsk saw themselves as opposites, but with more in common than either would admit. I expected more parallels between them in WoL. What are the lengths he will go to in order to defeat Mengsk? Will he resort to terrorist tactics? Will he train and indoctrinate somebody the way Mengsk worked Kerrigan?

It's hard to say. If nothing else, I still feel Raynor would at least be able to see a moral line. Whether he'd cross it or not is another matter, but still.

[Visions of Khas]

Yes but no one knew that at the moment. Raynor fully expected (right after Tarsonis) that the zerg killed her. Mengsk too probably didn't think the zerg were anything more than just mindless animals anyway.

That's kinda the point. I was reinforcing the "why" behind Nissa's evaluation of Mengsk's character with regard to the Zerg. It would be an especially touchy subject with him. Maybe people would know that he lost his most trusted asset and adviser, but they'll never guess at the truth of the situation.


It's hard to say. If nothing else, I still feel Raynor would at least be able to see a moral line. Whether he'd cross it or not is another matter, but still.

The pain and hardship he's gone through is immense. He's lost his whole family, the colony he served and protected, so many brothers and sisters in arms. He's going to have some PTSD, man. And that's something I wish was explored in more depth.

[Nissa]

Hm, I like this angle. Mengsk was directly responsible for the Swarm's current strength. He essentially raised Kerrigan into the tactical and strategic leader she became, taught her subversion and intrigue. She was his protege. It was a moment of spite, offing the assassin of his father. But it was also a moment of hubris, too; being able to groom someone into a personal weapon, then cast her away as though she was nothing more than an object. So in his blunder on Korhal, he literally made his own worst enemy, creating a personal point of humiliation.

She was probably a personal experiment and project, utterly molding somebody into the best possible weapon, instilling her with absolute and utter loyalty. He probably thought to himself, "This little Kerrigan Project was just a taste of what I can do with this Sector, once it is under my control." And you know what, he thinks of it as a good thing; he sees his rise as justice -- justice for Korhal, justice for himself. And in a lot of ways, his militarization and unification of the Koprulu population probably helped save it against the Zerg, Protoss and UED. Nobody ever sees themselves as the villain of their story.


With this in mind, I've always thought Raynor and Mengsk saw themselves as opposites, but with more in common than either would admit. I expected more parallels between them in WoL. What are the lengths he will go to in order to defeat Mengsk? Will he resort to terrorist tactics? Will he train and indoctrinate somebody the way Mengsk worked Kerrigan?

I'm just so sad they never really exploited the wonder that is the Mengsk/Raynor/Kerri triangle of hate. It is literally my favorite thing about writing fanfiction, and then Blizz all goes, "Mengsk's story is told." Pffft. So long as the other two are there, Mengsk has a place.

I really don't want a storyline where Raynor is trying to take Mengsk down. I am very much against this. Mostly because of what you said about them being opposites. I don't feel that they are terribly alike, but they have an enemy in common, and I see them more using one another rather than trying to kill each other.

As for Raynor, I feel that post BW he would have disappeared for a while, but then his natural desire to help others/make up for his past decisions would cause him to just randomly help people throughout the sector, whether human or Protoss. So he's low on Mengsk's radar, because he has neither the will nor the power to topple Mengsk. Mengsk, for his part, would be too busy in the political department to really care about Raynor. He would have a low level hatred of Raynor as a person, but on the other hand, he can trust that Raynor hates Kerrigan as much as he does, and is willing to use Jim to kill her.

I kinda imagined a cutscene in my head, where Mengsk just so happened to have caught Raynor one day, and makes Jim come to see him. They talk briefly about how much they hate one another, then Mengsk offers him an opportunity to take some of his men and defeat the Zerg on a certain planet (for what objective, I haven't decided yet).

Raynor: "Why me? Kinda figured you'd have some rabid, blind follower to go and do your dirty work for you."

Mengsk: "For one reason, and one reason alone. You're the only man I know whose hatred of the Zerg...of Kerrigan, coincides with my own."

Raynor: "Heh. I guess I'm your man after all."

Or something like that. I'd imagine they're smoking and/or drinking over Mengsk's desk, or whatever. These two have the weirdest hate relationship, and I absolutely love it. We need to have the hates.

Oh hey, we probably should talk about Valerian. I personally feel he should be nonexistent, absent, or only involved peripherally. However, if someone has any idea how to make him interesting, I'm all ears. I kinda go for the angle that he hates his dad, but isn't really a good person in general. He basically just uses his position in life to get nice things for himself. More or less a dignified but spoiled rich kid, who was forced to do more legit work because his dad's problems have cut into his ability to spend. He could possibly have gotten involved in hybrid projects this way, and Mengsk is forced to confront his own son over them. But we'll discuss on that.

[Visions of Khas]

So what would kickstart Raynor's involvement in the new story?

I kinda saw him disappearing into the woordwork, only to resurface later to try and help out a settlement, maybe Swann's miners. In his anger and bitterness, he starts using terrorist tactics, slowly edging into Mengsk territory. After Swann's party is saved, Raynor sees his his actions through the eyes of those he just saved. Embittered, and to his horror understanding Mengsk a little bit better, he goes into hiding once again.

This would make some interesting back story between Brood War and SCII. If Swann works with Raynor in the campaign, it would lead to interesting character dynamics that we, the audience, wouldn't be immediately privy to.

[Nissa]

Okay, so I also want to think about the Zerg. The main problem with the Zerg is their lack of characters. While I'm willing to believe that maybe a cerebrate went off into space to escape Kerrigan's wrath, we still need to figure out how to create Zerg characters that have any depth. This has literally been the problem with Starcraft since day one.

Kerrigan needs to have followers, so if you think of any good ones, by all means. In my own work, I introduced infested Protoss, but the problem is I had no way to distinguish them from the hybrids -- who I also hadn't well defined. In Sons of War, we had the early hybrids come in and try to use Kerrigan for their own purposes, but I wasn't entirely happy with that angle either.

Okay, so I'd like there to be a rebel cerebrate, for one. I like that genetics weaver dude (forgot his name at the moment), except for the fact he just so happened to be the one to turn Kerrigan. No. But for other servants....I'd like help.

[Nissa]

So what would kickstart Raynor's involvement in the new story?

I kinda saw him disappearing into the woordwork, only to resurface later to try and help out a settlement, maybe Swann's miners. In his anger and bitterness, he starts using terrorist tactics, slowly edging into Mengsk territory. After Swann's party is saved, Raynor sees his his actions through the eyes of those he just saved. Embittered, and to his horror understanding Mengsk a little bit better, he goes into hiding once again.

This would make some interesting back story between Brood War and SCII. If Swann works with Raynor in the campaign, it would lead to interesting character dynamics that we, the audience, wouldn't be immediately privy to.

Am I the only one who doesn't like Swann? Don't let that stop you if you want to include him, but he...just really rubs me the wrong way. I don't feel he's properly developed as a character. I'd like to see him be a bit more rough around the edges, more SC1 in nature.

Well, in any case, I had an idea more or less like that, except Raynor's involvement would hinge on deliberate action from Mengsk, and Mengsk generally ignores Raynor until he finds Raynor useful.

[Visions of Khas]

Am I the only one who doesn't like Swann?
... Eh? I don't care for him. Take him or leave him.

I just like the thought of there being some parallels between Mengsk and Raynor. I want an epiphany moment for Raynor, like "I'm not Mengsk. THIS [good guy Raynor] is who I REALLY am." Kinda rediscovering himself.

Of course, depending on who you are, this could be either a good moment of character development, or an overused trope.

[Nissa]

... Eh? I don't care for him. Take him or leave him.

I just like the thought of there being some parallels between Mengsk and Raynor. I want an epiphany moment for Raynor, like "I'm not Mengsk. THIS [good guy Raynor] is who I REALLY am." Kinda rediscovering himself.

Of course, depending on who you are, this could be either a good moment of character development, or an overused trope.

I kinda think both. If Raynor has this moment, it needs to be really subtle. For me, it would work if Raynor has just saved a bunch of people, and then he smiles for the first time in a long time, and inwardly starts to feel like his life isn't a terrible waste. As in, nobody states in dialogue how Raynor is feeling. It is felt, but not shown.

[Visions of Khas]

For me, it would work if Raynor has just saved a bunch of people, and then he smiles for the first time in a long time, and inwardly starts to feel like his life isn't a terrible waste. As in, nobody states in dialogue how Raynor is feeling. It is felt, but not shown.

Naw, I was thinking an angelic pillar of light descends on Raynor with a beautiful orchestral score in the background. Complete with Gregorian chants.

But really, a quiet moment like that would be very impactful. I often like darker books and movies not because I'm emo, but because it makes small flickers of hope like that so much brighter and meaningful.

[GnaReffotsirk]

Where does Raynor begin? His state of mind, what does he want currently, what's plaguing him?

If that's not possible to nail down, here's a question:

Where or what is the deepest, darkest state or condition will we find Raynor in during the course of the story?

[Undeadprotoss]

Okay, so I also want to think about the Zerg. The main problem with the Zerg is their lack of characters. While I'm willing to believe that maybe a cerebrate went off into space to escape Kerrigan's wrath, we still need to figure out how to create Zerg characters that have any depth. This has literally been the problem with Starcraft since day one.

Kerrigan needs to have followers, so if you think of any good ones, by all means. In my own work, I introduced infested Protoss, but the problem is I had no way to distinguish them from the hybrids -- who I also hadn't well defined. In Sons of War, we had the early hybrids come in and try to use Kerrigan for their own purposes, but I wasn't entirely happy with that angle either.

Okay, so I'd like there to be a rebel cerebrate, for one. I like that genetics weaver dude (forgot his name at the moment), except for the fact he just so happened to be the one to turn Kerrigan. No. But for other servants....I'd like help.

How about a cult/brood of infested terrans that hail from the worlds most devastated by the First Contact War. These people have lost virtually everything, and as far as they are concerned, humanity's fundamental disadvantages; their technology which is inferior to that of the Protoss, and their inability too quickly train and support war-ready infantry like the Zerg can. Lead them to believe that the ultimate fate of Terrans in the sector is to be consumed by the Zerg or destroyed by the Protoss. They would rather not live an incredibly agonizing existence, under the constant threat of death, and choose to join the swarm as a means to ensure life.

[GnaReffotsirk]

My thoughts on the Zerg is very very different. I want it to reflect the emptiness of what Kerrigan has made for herself. At least with respect to the start of the narrative.

Remember she couldn't trust anyone, and Duran abandons her for no apparent reason. At least, in her perspective. Only the one cerebrate remained with her through Omega.

I have details on this, but it's tied up to the inciting incident, and I'm not ready for it to get hammered down by criticism.

Where it goes from there could be the creation of characters that will populate the positions held by cerebrates in the past.

[Undeadprotoss]

My thoughts on the Zerg is very very different. I want it to reflect the emptiness of what Kerrigan has made for herself. At least with respect to the start of the narrative.

Remember she couldn't trust anyone, and Duran abandons her for no apparent reason. At least, in her perspective. Only the one cerebrate remained with her through Omega.

I have details on this, but it's tied up to the inciting incident, and I'm not ready for it to get hammered down by criticism.

Where it goes from there could be the creation of characters that will populate the positions held by cerebrates in the past.

Maybe you should try the same approach that began with creating SC1? Make some drawings, just about stuff you think is genuinely compelling in regards to Starcraft, write some backstory, etc.

[ragnarok]

My thoughts on the Zerg is very very different. I want it to reflect the emptiness of what Kerrigan has made for herself. At least with respect to the start of the narrative.

Remember she couldn't trust anyone, and Duran abandons her for no apparent reason. At least, in her perspective. Only the one cerebrate remained with her through Omega.

I have details on this, but it's tied up to the inciting incident, and I'm not ready for it to get hammered down by criticism.

Where it goes from there could be the creation of characters that will populate the positions held by cerebrates in the past.

After the abandonment, Kerrigan should have tried to dig deeper for into on Duran. After all, until his disappearance, she thought he was her faithful servant.

[Visions of Khas]

Please tell me it has to do with the Overmind's khaydarin crystal. That thing's been begging to be picked up as a plot device.

[ragnarok]

Please tell me it has to do with the Overmind's khaydarin crystal. That thing's been begging to be picked up as a plot device.

You know I'm actually wondering just WHAT the Overmind was trying to do with that. All he said was that once you clear the Protoss temple and the crystal set in its place, he could become manifest. Did kind of wish the game would go into a bit more detail what the Overmind wanted to do with it.

[Visions of Khas]

Before SCII, I always thought he was trying to infest the Khala by infecting Aiur's psi matrix. Fenix's shorting psi blades were the Overmind testing its new psychic environment.

[ragnarok]

Before SCII, I always thought he was trying to infest the Khala by infecting Aiur's psi matrix. Fenix's shorting psi blades were the Overmind testing its new psychic environment.

I can't remember if it was SC1's lore that said the Khala prevented infestation for the Protoss or something. I always felt that perhaps the Overmind found out about this, and knew it had to work on the khaydarin crystals to try to get around this before the assimilation process could happen.

[GnaReffotsirk]

I'm playing with the Khaydarin in SC Survivors. I haven't thought about its inclusion in SC Ressurection. What's your thoughts on the crystal Khas? All I know about it is that the Overmind learned of Khaydarins after he consumed the Xel'Naga.

[Visions of Khas]

That seemed to be the implication, Rag. The Overmind needed to manifest on Aiur in order to assimilate the Protoss, as per the speech he gave at the end of the first zerg campaign. It served as some kind of interface between itself and Aiur. I always thought the poor decisions by the Conclave and their war with Tassadar was due to the Overmind meddling with the Khala.

[ragnarok]

That seemed to be the implication, Rag. The Overmind needed to manifest on Aiur in order to assimilate the Protoss, as per the speech he gave at the end of the first zerg campaign.

True, though I can't figure out just WHEN he knew the Khala prevented the assimilation.



I'm playing with the Khaydarin in SC Survivors. I haven't thought about its inclusion in SC Ressurection. What's your thoughts on the crystal? All I know about it is that the Overmind learned of Khaydarins after he consumed the Xel'Naga.

Based on the SC1 lore, yes. Not too sure after the SC2 lore, though I doubt even then that shouldn't really change much. After all, Amon would have no real reason to tell the Overmind about the crystals in the first place....

[Turalyon]

Naw, I was thinking an angelic pillar of light descends on Raynor with a beautiful orchestral score in the background.

Didn't this happen in WoL already?


Where does Raynor begin? His state of mind, what does he want currently, what's plaguing him?

If that's not possible to nail down, here's a question:

Where or what is the deepest, darkest state or condition will we find Raynor in during the course of the story?

Let's paint a picture shall we:

I've always seen as Raynor as the average guy, not someone who's special or is a natural and capable leader despite having inherent charm and charisma. Him just being a leader of his own rebel band and being so resourceful to keep it going seemed to me like a a bit of wish-fulfillment on the part of fans and the writers themselves. For me, I'd imagine he'd be lying low at the end of BW and wanting to be alone for quite some because all his experiences with those who he's been close to have either been killed or have betrayed him. His PTSD and survivor guilt would probably give into despair, he'd become the alcoholic he was supposed to be in WoL and then get into fights hoping someone would end his life. Yet, he finds that he keeps surviving those encounters, with his encounters catching the eye of a pirate militia who wishes to hire him seeing that the man has nothing else to lose. Raynor agrees since he longer cares and thinks that this may grant better opportunities for his deathwish.

Being part of the pirate militia starts to harden Raynor up and he becomes more brazen in his antics within the group. This heat soon attracts the Dominion and eventually events lead to involvement with Mengsk. Then I can imagine that exchange that Nissa mentioned earlier about both joining up over Kerrigan may start to gain some traction.


How about a cult/brood of infested terrans that hail from the worlds most devastated by the First Contact War. These people have lost virtually everything, and as far as they are concerned, humanity's fundamental disadvantages; their technology which is inferior to that of the Protoss, and their inability too quickly train and support war-ready infantry like the Zerg can. Lead them to believe that the ultimate fate of Terrans in the sector is to be consumed by the Zerg or destroyed by the Protoss. They would rather not live an incredibly agonizing existence, under the constant threat of death, and choose to join the swarm as a means to ensure life.

A cult of Zerg-loving humans/infested Terrans reminds me a bit of Tyranid genestealers. Long ago, I actually thought of this idea as a way of introducing the Umojans into the mix - that this cult could be a faction that could develop within their high-minded society.


My thoughts on the Zerg is very very different. I want it to reflect the emptiness of what Kerrigan has made for herself. At least with respect to the start of the narrative.

Remember she couldn't trust anyone, and Duran abandons her for no apparent reason. At least, in her perspective. Only the one cerebrate remained with her through Omega.

I have details on this, but it's tied up to the inciting incident, and I'm not ready for it to get hammered down by criticism.

Where it goes from there could be the creation of characters that will populate the positions held by cerebrates in the past.

I like the concept of the Zerg evolving on their own after the loss of the Overmind without Kerrigan's help. This will give more agency to the Zerg and give something for Kerrigan to do within the Swarm as well as give her some agency that doesn't tie her extricably to the Zerg (part of HotS muddiness is that it wants us to think of the Kerrigan and Zerg as one but not when it's inconvenient/unwholesome for the Kerrign character and feels flip-floppy because of it). Whether that could involve cerebrates coming back (either from death or hiding) again is tricky to say since they were under-utilised and deserve some limelight but in doing so, could invite accusations of it being a blatant conceit/rehash/unoriginality.

All-in-all, I would like a shake-up within the Zerg that Kerrigan controls. The idea that she isn't actually perfect and that she actually does not have the means to replace the Overmind would be great. The Zerg can become factional to a degree (they don't and shouldn't become as disparate as the Terrans or Protoss though) and see Kerrigan as a threat but with the twist that Kerrigan is the one that either creates that issue in some way or incites this change in the Zerg. This could be a good way to explore Kerrigan's "control" issues. Then we could actually start seeing a "brood war", which we didn't get in BW itself.


Please tell me it has to do with the Overmind's khaydarin crystal. That thing's been begging to be picked up as a plot device.

Don't encourage the use of plot device for the mere purpose of artifice! *Slaps VoK* Bad VoK! :p

Seriously though, the Overmind's Khaydarin crystal is nothing special because the Overmind's dead! Really, it's just like any other Khaydarin Crystal that litter Aiur and probably just as despoiled by Zerg as any other crystal, you know, after having been occupied by the Zerg for years.

[GnaReffotsirk]

Khaydarins, I thought were storage crystals and can be used to tap psionic energy. If at all important, we could just say the Overmind's crystal is the one he took from the Xel'Naga, and from where he found information, and is still trying to mine information from.

Maybe that's where he feeds to gain psionic energy and exert control over the broods.

Say the Overmind may not be psionically gifted enough to extend his control over a vast number of Zerg, without the use of Khaydarin crystals, let alone an entire galaxy once he had assimilated everything. (As cerebrate we click on that thing to start missions. hehe)

I thought, since Aiur is kind of hub where psionic energy is highly concentrated/abundant (maybe it has something to do with Khaydarin formations on the planet), perhaps the reason why the Overmind wanted to plant itself there, is so it can then tap into this massive source of energy and just expand uninhibited from there.

Oh, and weren't the cerebrate who were trying to merge into a new overmind used a crystal to do their thing?

[Turalyon]

Khaydarins, I thought were storage crystals and can be used to tap psionic energy.

The manual says "The Crystals, left behind by the Xel'Naga, were fundamental in facilitating their proto-genetic experiments" in the Protoss history section.

Since the Overmind absorbed Xel'Nagan knowledge when it overcome them on Zerus, we can infer that it wanted the crystals for it's own proto-genetic experimentation. Given that it's goal is to assimilate Protoss, the implication is that is what it's for. But eh, it's a magic crystal. It can do whatever the plot demands I suppose.


I thought, since Aiur is kind of hub where psionic energy is highly concentrated/abundant (maybe it has something to do with Khaydarin formations on the planet), perhaps the reason why the Overmind wanted to plant itself there, is so it can then tap into this massive source of energy and just expand uninhibited from there.

Ah, I remember the days when speculation was rampant. My particular fanon was that the Overmind was tapping into the psionic matrix and using the Khaydarin crystal in order to connect to the extended Swarm that had spread far across the galaxy looking for the Protoss. Essentially, that the Zerg force we see in Sc1 was but an expeditionary force and that tapping into Aiur would allow it to connect the greater Overmind network and be a beacon, calling all other Zerg far and wide to the K sector.

[ragnarok]

Oh, and weren't the cerebrate who were trying to merge into a new overmind used a crystal to do their thing?

We don't know that for sure. Remember, Kerrigan only told Zeratul and the others that some of the renegade Cerebrates commanded by Daggoth had merged into a new Overmind and that is all. It's possible to create the Overmind, you never really needed the crystals. The crystals' use was only needed for assimilation.



Say the Overmind may not be psionically gifted enough to extend his control over a vast number of Zerg, without the use of Khaydarin crystals, let alone an entire galaxy once he had assimilated everything. (As cerebrate we click on that thing to start missions. hehe)

I thought, since Aiur is kind of hub where psionic energy is highly concentrated/abundant (maybe it has something to do with Khaydarin formations on the planet), perhaps the reason why the Overmind wanted to plant itself there, is so it can then tap into this massive source of energy and just expand uninhibited from there.


The hub part I can kind of see. The Overmind DID say this was the place where the Xel'Naga first set foot on Aiur, so maybe that could be like a "Ground Zero" thing where the origins of all their energy came from, so once that part is under his control, the rest is self explanatory.

[Visions of Khas]

One question I have, the zerg purity of essence. For our purposes, will that be the overmind, the hivemind, or some other quality?

And if the zerg swarm is too big for the OM to control, wouldn't he just make more cerebrates?

[GnaReffotsirk]

As for the Crystal, Rag, remember the char mission where they steal the crystal from the cerebrates? I have to recheck on that to be 100%
For Aiur as a hub of sorts, I think I've read that somewhere in the manual. Again, will have to recheck.

As for Purity of essence, I'm for the capacity for communal existence in a spiritual level. Essence, or spirit, or drive. To have the ability to be "one" while maintaining individuality. It's like having a single overall goal, while the members act in their own capacity and talent. But then make that as a driving urge. Like a soul direction or something. It's hard to explain.

Each member would maintain autonomy, but are driven by a single purpose, like music with different instruments in an orchestral ensemble. The Zerg in some way would kind of reflect this, but in a course manner.

The Zerg maintain autonomy in their members, but only in a lower form of the idea (i.e. traverse a path from a to b; how to chop a target.) The Zerg are kind of machines directed by a single AI, where each one is given protocols within any set of conditions, to fulfill certain parameters of a given directive.

Purity of Essence in its highest form can be described as an intuitive knowing of what is best for all members of the species, where each member is predisposed to attain certain goals that would serve their highest aspirations as a community of beings. All for everyone, everyone is all.

I can't put it to words any better than that, but that's how I see Purity of Essence is. Perfect in spirit, indivisible, whole. Binding the many to fulfill the expression of the whole. Yet the whole is in the many, and each of the many expresses the whole.

[Gradius]

One question I have, the zerg purity of essence. For our purposes, will that be the overmind, the hivemind, or some other quality?
Hivemind. The xel'naga abandoned the protoss due to their conflict of essence (loss of the khala and rise of individualism). I think the khala was meant to be the protoss' purity of essence.



Ah, I remember the days when speculation was rampant. My particular fanon was that the Overmind was tapping into the psionic matrix and using the Khaydarin crystal in order to connect to the extended Swarm that had spread far across the galaxy looking for the Protoss. Essentially, that the Zerg force we see in Sc1 was but an expeditionary force and that tapping into Aiur would allow it to connect the greater Overmind network and be a beacon, calling all other Zerg far and wide to the K sector.
That's actually awesome. I always considered the full might of the swarm to vastly outnumber the expeditionary force that initially rolls through Koprulu and that the Khalai vs. Swarm was a titanic battle of epic proportions. The protoss and zerg were once the most powerful, but now the UED seems like it should be at the top.

[Visions of Khas]

If the extended Zerg swarm converges on the K sector like that, it would be another parallel with the impending threat of the Tyranid hive fleets.

[ragnarok]

One question I have, the zerg purity of essence. For our purposes, will that be the overmind, the hivemind, or some other quality?

And if the zerg swarm is too big for the OM to control, wouldn't he just make more cerebrates?

The swarm was never too big for the Overmind to control. He created Cerebrates to make his job easier.

I'm willing to bet even if Kerrigan found a way to prevent the swarm from fracturing in the event she was defeated, she would have created the broodmothers anyway just to make her job easier. It's just the same principle.

[Visions of Khas]

Right, Rag. I thought people were implying the swarm stretched through out the galaxy and the Overmind needed Aiur to call out to them.

So will Kerrigan be creating or retaining Cerebrates, relying on Brood Queens, increasing individual minion intelligence, or use a mix of all these control strategies?

I can see Kerrigan exploring different options with experimental broods. That might also confuse her enemies' perception of the state of the swarm.

[GnaReffotsirk]

Here's some of my thoughts on the first sequence:

1. (after BW) Kerrigan is unrepentant, yet feels a deep hole inside her, all the while feeling a sense of urgency, danger. She's being torn apart inside, physically and mentally.

2. She goes into hibernation, the broods on char as well. The cerebrate is slowly degenerating, and goes into hibernation as well. The rest of the broods scattered across the K-Sector is left to their own devices. Terrans and protoss deal with them only when necessary. Keeping them on their toes and in check.

3. While in deep slumber, Kerrigan's human part is accusing her, making her see what she's done. It's like having done something wrong and the cold sweats and sleepless sleep settling in, punishing, correcting, keeping one sane. Conscience keeping itself intact.

4. Duran's hybrid attacks and destroys the char broods. Weakened and without proper nourishment, the broods on char were inefficient, and few. The massive number of Zerg could easily rip through the terran worlds in years just to maintain their form and strength.

5. Her near death facing the true form of Duran (think Nyarlathotep), led her to where Raynor is working as a civilian merc group hired by a former magistrate to protect his colony's supply caravans from pirates. With her is a small number of zerg, enough to hold off a battalion.

6. Raynor miraculously drags a stolen nuclear bomb into the belly of the down beast unharmed, while the Zerg brood just hovered around to protect Kerrigan's living transport, and other terrans were being strangely simply pushed away or dragged away from getting close. Within the beast is Kerrigan, wounded, seemingly repentant. "I was wrong Jim", and she'd let Raynor blow her to pieces, but think of all the men outside. Their wives, children.

Raynor would have done it, but kerrigan pushes it away. Instead she gives him his gun. Raynor starts shooting ripping her carapace and flesh, but it's not enough. She falls down, severely weakened, and says, "I would been dead Jim, they were all over me, but I thought if I could only see you one last time. So I kept fighting." Raynor isn't listening anymore, Kerrigan has no more cards to draw.

Raynor's comm comes to life amidst this discussion, "Uh, Jimmy, the Dominion is right above us. I knew that magistrate of yours was working for them. Get out of there buddy."

And a lot of shooting.

Finally, warfield and his crew cuts through and enters the chamber. Kerrigan struggles to stand, and lunges forward, but she shouldn't. Warfield's crew opens up their ghostbuster-esque weapons, putting kerrigan down. The electric tendrils seem to attach to kerrigan alone.

Warfield: " You did good work here today, son. What's your name?"

Raynor: "What do Mengsk want with her?"

Warfield: "None of my business, and certainly none of yours. I do my job, and get my pay. But don't worry, you and your crew here will be rich by sundown. Uh, Mr..?"

Raynor: "It doesn't matter. Just give these folks what Mengsk owes."


---------------------

From the above, I'm leaning towards Kerrigan forced to revive the swarm and restructure it accordingly due to events. As a reaction rather than preemptive action.

[Turalyon]

If the extended Zerg swarm converges on the K sector like that, it would be another parallel with the impending threat of the Tyranid hive fleets.

Funny thing about that. At the time, Starcraft got me into WH40K (weird I know) so I didn't realise my fanon then was ripping that off until later.

Still, I figured that if the Overmind was having difficulty finding the Protoss and/or building up strength for this confrontation, I'd imagine it would have sent "feelers" far afield whilst still going in the direction toward the Protoss. What with space being so vast and all, I thought that Overmind would have limits in its control of its minions (since it's established it uses cerebrates to help it afterall) over such distances and would have to partition itself to do so. It seemed like a methodical thing for the Overmind to do, plus, I liked the idea of considering the Overmind as not being just one singular entity. Afterall, even though some broods numbered in the millions (they were in the low millions if not thousands in some cases), I still felt that this was too small for a galactic swarm that had been building up strength for this confrontation, especially considering all the time it took to get there, too.


So will Kerrigan be creating or retaining Cerebrates, relying on Brood Queens, increasing individual minion intelligence, or use a mix of all these control strategies?

Brood Queens are functionally Cerebrates anyway, right? The distinction between the two is hardly noteworthy unless Kerrigan's creations do not actually permit her to have full control over the Swarm nor that they follow her one agenda. It would be interesting to see how such a thing could turn out.

[ragnarok]

I can see Kerrigan exploring different options with experimental broods. That might also confuse her enemies' perception of the state of the swarm.

So can I. It really depends on how she had planned to evolve the swarm and everything, we don't know the details.

[GnaReffotsirk]

Does she have the ability though, to evolve the swarm?

[Visions of Khas]

It seems Kerrigan has to coerce cerebrates to serve her through force. She treats tge swarm like a dictatorship rather than a super organism. Considering her psychology, I think she would she clamp down on the broods at first, but slowly realize her folly and allow them to evolve different control strategies. Maybe her dormancy in Gna's storyline is in part to see how the swarm changes without her constant interference. But I have a hard time believing she would leave herself vulnerable like that.

[GnaReffotsirk]

Good point. I will take note of it.

I'm feeling a little iffy about the romance thing too. Maybe it would seem too sudden given the idea doesn't show enough moments to show how she becomes emotional, and all.

[Nissa]

I would prefer no romance at all. They were best buds before her infestation, and maybe she had a mini-crush on him, but that's not really enough. The romance angle should be a no go, and best case scenario they end up in something of a grudging forgiveness state. That, and any confrontation between Kerrigan and Raynor would best come after his reluctant alliance with Mengsk -- it's something that's built up over several missions, not something that simply happens.

As far as purity of essence goes, I agree more or less with Gna's definition of it, and feel that this concept has near zero story potential. For me it's simply a poetic term that makes the world feel deeper, without providing any particular direction. As in, we don't need to bother writing anything about it, except for maybe some nice dialogue.

The khaydarins....yes...so reading from you guys' posts, it would seem to make sense that Kerrigan could either use these crystals to control the swarm, or to manipulate the swarm's genetic capabilities. So, she would value Aiur, yes? Would want to keep it for herself? If so, that's going to have a huge effect on the Protoss side of things. Likewise, do we want to make the Uraj and Khalis useful again, or are they just crystals that work only with the temple on Shakuras?

Also does anyone have any ideas on Protoss characters?

[ragnarok]

Does she have the ability though, to evolve the swarm?

Of course she does. But it would still be a better idea for her to create the broodmothers nonetheless because no matter which direction you want to take it, surely Kerrigan has to consider the possibility maybe someone could think of something she didn't factor into.

Hell, I always felt this was one of the main reasons why she was defeated on Char at the end of WoL in the first place.

[Visions of Khas]

I've always seen the swarm as a distributed super computer, all its nodes superluminally linked. The Overmind was at its heart. This was my head canon explanation for its vision, an extrapolation of available data to calculate an end point: Amon's victory.

Being apart from the superorganism of the swarm, I never saw Kerrigan being capable of the same intuitive leaps as the Overmind, and thus limited in her perspective.

[ragnarok]

Being apart from the superorganism of the swarm, I never saw Kerrigan being capable of the same intuitive leaps as the Overmind, and thus limited in her perspective.

That's because she wasn't as creative. It all goes all the way back to the Confederate ghost days, since they were little more than mindless drones who function as assassins. Unfortunately the events of SC2 made her a little bit TOO unimaginative.

We all know that overwhelming numbers is a critical advantage in war, but that in itself doesn't make all the difference. Kerrigan forgot about that in the artifact hunt in WoL.

[GnaReffotsirk]

2484
2485
2486
2487

Ideas of Duran and Hybrids.

[ragnarok]

A little bit unsure of where you're trying to go with the last picture there....

[Nissa]

Uh, last picture has awkward crotch, but I especially love the second one.

In my view, the hybrids looked like 'Toss, but could at any moment reveal things like a mouth or tentacles to show their Zerg forms. If that inspires you, go for it, like maybe for a specific type of hybrid, or an important character.

Ooh, wait, I know! Kerrigan wants to hold onto Aiur to ensure that the hybrids don't get the khaydarins! Note that she shouldn't know for sure if this is the case, but just kind of make that assumption because she knows that the Overmind valued the khaydarins, and she doesn't want to take the risk. I like a Kerrigan who, unlike in BW, has no clue what she's doing and is just trying to make decisions based on what she sees. That way, if/when she's completely wrong, there's greater tension.

[ragnarok]

Ooh, wait, I know! Kerrigan wants to hold onto Aiur to ensure that the hybrids don't get the khaydarins! Note that she shouldn't know for sure if this is the case, but just kind of make that assumption because she knows that the Overmind valued the khaydarins, and she doesn't want to take the risk. I like a Kerrigan who, unlike in BW, has no clue what she's doing and is just trying to make decisions based on what she sees. That way, if/when she's completely wrong, there's greater tension.

Did Kerrigan really know just WHAT the Overmind wanted on Aiur? Because I don't recall anywhere in the SC1 lore the Overmind told her anything about trying to assimilate the Protoss race....

[Visions of Khas]

4. Duran's hybrid attacks and destroys the char broods. Weakened and without proper nourishment, the broods on char were inefficient, and few. The massive number of Zerg could easily rip through the terran worlds in years just to maintain their form and strength.

I'm curious. What is Duran's backstory and motivation here?

I was always a fan of Duran being a member of a previous incarnation of the Xel'Naga, or a member of a race left behind.

[GnaReffotsirk]

I haven't really thought about duran's motivations apart from what he said in the secret mission during BW.

Everything he said there, every noun, verb, what have you, are things we could try and imagine what those might be. Besides Amon, of course.

The images above are just the general shapes, no details yet. And their second pair of arms, will have to be changed to something like that of the hydralisks.

Maybe you guys have ideas. I want to spend the month on SC Survivors, and get it to a final draft.

[Nissa]

Well, if you want someone to look at SC Survivors, linky link?

Um, I've always seen Duran as someone who was part of the Xel'Naga, but continually manipulating them towards his own ends. Like the Xel'Naga were playing around with Protoss, but Duran himself made specific suggestions to steer them towards what he wanted them to be. Then, when the Protoss turned out to be "failures," he scapegoated someone else, then manipulated the Xel'Naga into playing around with the Zerg. Then allowed most of the Xel'Naga to be destroyed when they were no longer useful/were about to find out what he was doing.

[ragnarok]

I'm curious. What is Duran's backstory and motivation here?

I was always a fan of Duran being a member of a previous incarnation of the Xel'Naga, or a member of a race left behind.

I felt it was the latter. Remember, back in the SC1 and BW lore, we knew nothing about the Xel'Naga's origins. Thus it was entirely possible the Xel'Naga were at war with Duran's species, and Duran himself was left as one of the few survivors who wanted revenge.

[GnaReffotsirk]

I'd go for a much older race, older than the Xel'Naga. Duran would be thinking to have served them by creating Hybrids, and starting the path to "change" whatever that means.

In a time of chaos, when the universe was young, a race of beings were born into power. Power that would shape the very fabric of our reality. They have consumed themselves in their lusts, and are now forever bound, scattered. Their very energies course through all of creation, binding, now separating, forever in torment, so we may live.

The foundations of your very existence have been set upon them. The only escape is purity.

Purity of essence. Purity of form.

Edit: Nissa, I'll be in touch. Maybe you can voice Ralrazin too? You can interpret the dialogue as you find necessary, to bring out the character as you imagine her.

[Gradius]

Gna - I can help too. I'm pretty much free from SC activities.

[GnaReffotsirk]

Grad, you're already on the list. :D Once I'm ready, I'll send them over.

[Visions of Khas]

I'd offer my rich baritone with authentic southern undertones, but I don't have a working mic. :(

[Gradius]

I'd offer my rich baritone with authentic southern undertones, but I don't have a working mic. :(
Really? Could you do a Mengsk impersonation? :o

[Visions of Khas]

Really? Could you do a Mengsk impersonation? :o

Ahnd ah wheel naht be stahped!

[ragnarok]

I'd go for a much older race, older than the Xel'Naga. Duran would be thinking to have served them by creating Hybrids, and starting the path to "change" whatever that means.

In a time of chaos, when the universe was young, a race of beings were born into power. Power that would shape the very fabric of our reality. They have consumed themselves in their lusts, and are now forever bound, scattered. Their very energies course through all of creation, binding, now separating, forever in torment, so we may live.

The foundations of your very existence have been set upon them. The only escape is purity.

Purity of essence. Purity of form.



Yes but if you want an older race than the Xel'Naga, you would have to go into details about just how the Xel'Naga originated from. That being said, for the Xel'Naga born from the Void IN ITSELF wasn't considered a BS concept via the SC2 lore, just what they were doing didn't work out.

[Nissa]

I'd go for a much older race, older than the Xel'Naga. Duran would be thinking to have served them by creating Hybrids, and starting the path to "change" whatever that means.

In a time of chaos, when the universe was young, a race of beings were born into power. Power that would shape the very fabric of our reality. They have consumed themselves in their lusts, and are now forever bound, scattered. Their very energies course through all of creation, binding, now separating, forever in torment, so we may live.

The foundations of your very existence have been set upon them. The only escape is purity.

Purity of essence. Purity of form.

Edit: Nissa, I'll be in touch. Maybe you can voice Ralrazin too? You can interpret the dialogue as you find necessary, to bring out the character as you imagine her.

I am so in. I love basically everything about this post, because you're showing the right kind of artistic drama, where you're taking poetry seriously. Dude, send me some lines so I can practice.

And Khas, go buy a mic, because I am now intrigued. You must. You must.

Gna, is there any specific point in your project where you feel weak? I can help there, if you like. You sound like you have Protoss down, but how are you with Zerg?

[GnaReffotsirk]

I think its weak all over. I wish I could see the images your mind is conjuring right now.

[Visions of Khas]

My pre-SCII head canon had all the accomplishments attributed to a single race of Xel'Naga super entities actually actually being performed by several races over the course of centuries. The beginning of that legend lay with refugees fleeing from their home galaxy.

[GnaReffotsirk]

Hindu gods look like multiple species, each one seem to have different goals in mind.

The Watchers of Enoch had each watcher teach humanity different crafts. They seem to not be under one ruler, but a communion of beings, where none of them could do what they desired if not all of them agreed to interfere with humanity's destiny.

The gods of Olympus also seem to reflect this as well. Though they were depicted as having human form, I don't think they really do. They could use avatars or whatever to reveal themselves. Zeus, could take on many forms. Maybe he mind controls them or transform himself like Duran does.

Nissa, post your ideas on the Zerg, or you can send them to me, if you'd like.

[Nissa]

Well, I was kinda hoping to view your ideas and build on them, but here you go. We're all in it together, no?

I've always seen the Zerg as viewing themselves not unlike children. They destroyed most of the Xel'Naga, but were generally unable to understand much of what the Xel'Naga intended, mainly because they didn't understand the Xel'Nagan language, and, being so young at the time, could not conceptualize many of the things the Xel'Naga was about. On the other hand, the Overmind knows a little more than he lets on, and considers himself the secret keeper of the Xel'Naga's last knowledge. How much he has corrupted this knowledge over time remains unknown.

But overall, the Zerg are like children without parents. They are gathering all the information they can like curious, inconsiderate five year olds who think everything belongs to them. The only ones they respect are the Protoss (being siblings, after all), but the Protoss are also the only ones they fear. The Overmind seemed to know something about the Protoss that gave him pause, and by absorbing them into the Swarm, the Overmind felt it could take this threat and turn it into an advantage for the Swarm.

I also feel that the Overmind would view infected Protoss as the exact same as the Protoss-Zerg hybrids. While this perception may or may not be true, it's the Overmind's opinion, and he is incapable of seeing anything different because, like I said in another thread, he feels that all of life is the story of how the Zerg become pan-ultimate in the universe. So he sees hybrids as essentially Zerg, when maybe the hybrids agree or don't agree.

Also, I think we need to consider that maybe the Xel'Naga are evil or at least morally weak. In the first Protoss missions, Tassadar goes on about how the Zerg intend to "continue the experiments the Xel'Naga began" or something like that. So it's entirely possible that the Xel'Naga themselves never saw their manipulated races as anything more than glorified test subjects.

[Visions of Khas]

Also, I think we need to consider that maybe the Xel'Naga are evil or at least morally weak. In the first Protoss missions, Tassadar goes on about how the Zerg intend to "continue the experiments the Xel'Naga began" or something like that. So it's entirely possible that the Xel'Naga themselves never saw their manipulated races as anything more than glorified test subjects.

So what do you think the Xel'Nagas' goals were? Did these experimenters represent all Naga kind? Were they a splinter faction? What was the purpose of the grand experiment?

[ragnarok]

So what do you think the Xel'Nagas' goals were? Did these experimenters represent all Naga kind? Were they a splinter faction? What was the purpose of the grand experiment?

Based on the SC1 lore, I had originally thought they were just trying to create a perfect species. Once that succeeds, then they'd decide what uses it'd be for. The SC1 lore seemed to imply that until the events on Zerus (before the Overmind rebelled), all the other Xel'Naga creations ended in failure.

[Nissa]

On a canon level, there's no real knowing. I'm a bit suspicious that Blizzard may have intended originally for all the races to come together to defeat the Xel'Naga, and it'd be all about self-determination, and whatnot.

Oh, I've gone on and on about my own view, where Duran manipulates the rest of the Xel'Naga. In my view, the Xel'Naga are a mostly indifferent race or faction who study the universe just because. They are the ultimate society of nerds, as they simply wish to learn and continue learning, and yet have this massive power to be able to do so. Enter Duran, because the Xel'Naga are too passive to use their power for conquest, and Duran ain't gonna let that get by.

I'd imagine that Duran comes from an ancient race about as powerful as the Xel'Naga but with different, more focused intentions. Conquest is kinda what they do, but they care less about dominating so much as they care about every race knowing its place. Animals are below, sentients above, hybrids higher still. The Xel'Naga merely wanted to study the universe, but Duran's people wanted to shape it.

[ragnarok]

The gods of Olympus also seem to reflect this as well. Though they were depicted as having human form, I don't think they really do. They could use avatars or whatever to reveal themselves. Zeus, could take on many forms. Maybe he mind controls them or transform himself like Duran does.


Yeah but no one knew back in SC1 that Duran was a shapeshifter. For all we know, despite being alien, it's possible Duran merely used a human host to hide himself in, and would expose his real form (thus leaving the host) when the time was right. That doesn't prove he himself could change form on the fly.

[Visions of Khas]

Yeah but no one knew back in SC1 that Duran was a shapeshifter
Back in the day, I thought Duran might have been a gestalt entity; or had his personality "uploaded" into clones of different races.

[GnaReffotsirk]

on Duran: Didn't he let the Zerg destroy his base on Aiur, when they were after Raynor and Mengsk?
Possible scenarious:
1. he can control the Zerg, and made it look like he got infested. In this case, he can shape himself into anything, including an infested terran.
2. or took the chance to let himself be infested. In this case, he's possessed a body, and maintains control of it while being infected. Sounds like a huge risk to me. What if the Zerg just turned him into food?
3. He already has a copy of himself as an infested Zerg, and attacks his human clone.


On Nissa's Zerg idea:

As children, I'd agree with the theme you are seeing. It's not hard to pursue. The Overmind called itself and the Protoss as the creation of the Xel'Naga. I'm fine with the theme, where do you plan to go with their narrative given this backdrop?

On Nissa's XelNaga:

Space nerds are fine by me. They did exhibit this. I believe, though, that the nerds were the ones leading the expedition in the Korpulu, but there might be a Wayland in their home planet, or flotilla.

On Nissa's XelNaga vs Another Race:

I see this in our own world. Some secret few want to control everything, even their own kind; some want to have all the power, control or not, they're on top; Some just want to experience nature, and take some of nature home with them in their buckets; some just want to watch nature; some want the cool new things, and don't mind what damage they do to nature, animals; some want to manipulate DNA to grow ears on them, organs for their use.

I'll add Mr. Scott's Engineer's into the equation, and our own debates about trans-humanism and genetic engineering.

The perfect weapon is created, the Zerg, at least from the view of one faction among the Xel'Naga. To others this is proof eternal life can be achieved: if one can transfer one's consciousness in the network of consciousness through purity of essence, and live in perfect form, one has achieved eternal life.

Others see this as an abomination; others see this as meddling with things that shouldn't be meddled with, etc.

The Xel'Naga were viewed as gods, but they are not. They're ancient, but nothing new is under the galactic black sun. Death is inevitable, life is meaningless, maybe if we defeat death, we find meaning. But it's all vanity. Thus, starcraft.

Having a Xel'Naga with differing thoughts would make them more interesting. Why they wanted purity of essence, at least in their varying definitions of it, becomes a source of contention. Goes for purity of form as well.

Consider the Temple on Shakuras. It could have been made to wipe out their own creations if ever they had to. Either by necessity, or if something goes wrong. Or it could be some other faction's bomb waiting until the creation of the Xel'Naga ever succeeds -- a way out for someone else or themselves.


----------------------

What do you think? That's all I can add for now. Haven't got much sleep. I'll think more.

[ragnarok]

Back in the day, I thought Duran might have been a gestalt entity; or had his personality "uploaded" into clones of different races.

That's true, but my point is that the fans had a lot more theories about Duran. Being a gestalt seemed a bit unlikely because Duran had called Zeratul a young prodigal. Remember, Zeratul was 650-ish years old, on the older end of Protoss. That Duran still considered him extremely young would imply the guy had to be hundreds of thousands of years old, it not more.

[Turalyon]

on Duran: Didn't he let the Zerg destroy his base on Aiur, when they were after Raynor and Mengsk?
Possible scenarious:
1. he can control the Zerg, and made it look like he got infested. In this case, he can shape himself into anything, including an infested terran.
2. or took the chance to let himself be infested. In this case, he's possessed a body, and maintains control of it while being infected. Sounds like a huge risk to me. What if the Zerg just turned him into food?
3. He already has a copy of himself as an infested Zerg, and attacks his human clone.

I'd say Number 1. We don't even know what he was at the time but he seems powerful enough to pretend to be Kerrigan's pawn without her knowing his true nature.

Duran going AWOL and his faux reply to Stukov about the signal breaking up, seems to suggest that his allegiance was already with Kerrigan prior to this event (although he was most likely pretending this allegiance with Kerrigan). Kerrigan probably thought she had him mind-controlled, like she had with Raszagal perhaps?


Having a Xel'Naga with differing thoughts would make them more interesting. Why they wanted purity of essence, at least in their varying definitions of it, becomes a source of contention. Goes for purity of form as well.

This. If you're going into why they wanted the purity of form and essence, I'm assuming you're ditching the Xel'Naga rebirth cycle explanation given in the EU? Interesting. I can imagine the Xel'Naga as nerdy scientists bickering amongst each other (like most peers in the same scientific field) about which is more important and so on. It's curious to note that in Sc1, the concept of purity of essence is only referred to and talked about after the failure of the Protoss. It suggests that the Xel'Naga didn't have the "purity of essence" concept from the get-go nor that there was a dual/yin-yang relationship with each other to begin with. It could be that purity of essence was only specifically focussed on after the Protoss lost a quality that they weren't looking for/unware of at the time or rather, were taking for granted since they were happy with the Protoss as their perfect lifeform until their individuality ruined the innate strength of their communal link.

Either way, as long as they are not outright eeevillllllll/ the devil incarnate/ seeking to "destroy everything" for "reasons", it can only be an improvement.

[GnaReffotsirk]

midi-chlorians. I want to keep the Xel'Naga story in the background. Just hinting them here and there. I want to focus on the conflict between the races, and Duran's hybrids.

[Visions of Khas]

midi-chlorians

Midichlorians, Duke (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSA3QVrggl0#t=1m37s)...



on Duran: Didn't he let the Zerg destroy his base on Aiur, when they were after Raynor and Mengsk?

Stukov comments that Duran's force was moved out of position. My best guess is that Duran had already been "infested" by Kerrigan, but to maintain the charade, Duran moved his forces so it didn't seem too suspicious when the Zerg ran directly through his camps without attacking.


The perfect weapon is created, the Zerg, at least from the view of one faction among the Xel'Naga. To others this is proof eternal life can be achieved: if one can transfer one's consciousness in the network of consciousness through purity of essence, and live in perfect form, one has achieved eternal life.

This was my view. The Overmind probably saw its assimilation of the Xel'Naga as a fulfilling gift; he was taking his ancient creators along for the ride to complete their project.


maybe if we defeat death, we find meaning. But it's all vanity. Thus, starcraft.

Reminds me of Asimov's The Last Question (http://multivax.com/last_question.html). :D


Consider the Temple on Shakuras. It could have been made to wipe out their own creations if ever they had to. Either by necessity, or if something goes wrong. Or it could be some other faction's bomb waiting until the creation of the Xel'Naga ever succeeds -- a way out for someone else or themselves.

A campaign I wrote some years ago dealt with the Protoss unearthing Xel'Naga artifacts during the Aeon of Strife. While these technologies had benign or good intentions, the Protoss could only rain ruin in their ignorance. Essentially, mis-use of the Temple.

But I don't think the Xel'Naga were entirely altruistic. If they were -- if they never took steps to protect themselves from alien attack -- they probably would have never survived long enough to become a space-faring race.


I want to keep the Xel'Naga story in the background. Just hinting them here and there. I want to focus on the conflict between the races, and Duran's hybrids.
I think this was Blizzard's original intent, too. And in the process of creating SCII, they wrote themselves into a corner because of their lack of forethought.

I think it's smart to keep them in the background, but it would help future developments to flesh them out in the beginning.

[GnaReffotsirk]

Agreed.

[ragnarok]

midi-chlorians. I want to keep the Xel'Naga story in the background. Just hinting them here and there. I want to focus on the conflict between the races, and Duran's hybrids.

Tell me GNA, when the hybrid was first introduced in Dark Origins, how much did you think it had some sort of tie in with the Xel'Naga?

[GnaReffotsirk]

In what way, Rag? See, back then there was only the Xel'Naga that were the oldest race. Duran would automatically be part of that age. He could be a XN, or some other that belonged in the age of XN.

Immediately, I associated things, and thought Duran was recreating the Xel'Naga's initial goals. Now, with Zeratul's reaction, I got the thought that this design of his is a corrupt image of what the Xel'naga had in mind.

Why? See, Duran was shown to be deceptive, can infiltrate without being found out, as a terran then as an infested terran. And being deceptive during the course of the story was a theme that argued, "all deceptive people are bad, have their minds twisted, and do what the opposite of what they would have done if they were not corrupted."

Now, while Kerrigan and the matriarch were corrupted, Aldaris was the counterpoint: "Those who are true, and know the truth, ends up being betrayed." This happened to Fenix and Duke. They were not corrupt, they were loyal, and true to their word.

Now comes duran, with a voice echoing, almost electric, deep, and he's been deceptive, and have changed form, and speaks in cryptic tones, and Zeratul, the wise and being the one to silence Aldaris in the past with his lines, our actual point of view in the story, reacts like he's talking to a mad scientist.

All that combined tells me Duran is old and powerful, maybe Xel'Naga or at least someone who belongs during the era where the Xel'Naga were actively pursuing their goals. His creation here is an abomination because our point of view character tells us. It must look horrible, and as far as perfect in form has been implied, it doesn't mean like this. (Since the protoss were once deemed perfect in form and essence, but lost essence, a protoss saying something is an abomination means it's not actually perfect, at least in this case, our perspective through Zeratul).

I'd say, 100%.

[Nissa]

Bah, you post all this stuff on the day when I don't have access to internet....


on Duran: Didn't he let the Zerg destroy his base on Aiur, when they were after Raynor and Mengsk?

In my opinion, this is the crux of Duran's behavior. He'll use and throw away anyone anywhere.


Possible scenarious:
1. he can control the Zerg, and made it look like he got infested. In this case, he can shape himself into anything, including an infested terran.
2. or took the chance to let himself be infested. In this case, he's possessed a body, and maintains control of it while being infected. Sounds like a huge risk to me. What if the Zerg just turned him into food?
3. He already has a copy of himself as an infested Zerg, and attacks his human clone.

This is where the books of quantum mechanics I've been reading start to kick in. So I was reading the chapter on teleportation, and quantum teleportation, as it is currently understood, is that atoms are all destroyed at location A (the place teleported from) and at location B (the destination) other particles are given the exact same characteristics as the destroyed copy. That is, Duran doesn't actually teleport, he is continually destroyed and rebuilt at various locations, by means of entangled atomic particles.

How this is usable in the story is that Duran is capable of either throwing or leaving behind in pre-determined locations quantum particles. Each place where he has these entangled particles represents a place where he can (a) teleport to if his life is threatened and (b) teleport but also manipulate how his particles on the other side rearrange themselves. So whenever he teleports, he can either remain the same, or take on a new identity, such as his infested form. Note that he should only be able to change shape whenever he teleports, so he can't simply stand in place and take on a new form (although he can basically do this if he left a quantum particle in a nearby location).

Duran's real self is a protected cluster of "qubits" (quantum "computer" particles) combined with his soul essence and whatever shell he happens to use to protect these qubits while he is not present. This location is entirely unknown, and given Duran's long lifespan and vast travels, could be anywhere by now.

Dude, I feel like I have leveled up my nerd skill. +1.



On Nissa's Zerg idea:

As children, I'd agree with the theme you are seeing. It's not hard to pursue. The Overmind called itself and the Protoss as the creation of the Xel'Naga. I'm fine with the theme, where do you plan to go with their narrative given this backdrop?

That's kinda what I was hoping you guys would help me with....

Well, this could be the basis for the renegade cerebrate's mind. Like, this cerebrate has been working with the Overmind at times, and though it never doubted the Overmind's rightness in infesting Kerrigan, it believes that with the Overmind's death, his plans for Kerri has gone awry, and that it is his job, as the Overmind's last loyal cerebrate (or leader if we decide to go with more than one -- maybe the player character is a new strain of leader that is like a cerebrate, but weaker), is to subdue Kerrigan and either make her do what the cerebrate thinks the Overmind would want, or kill her. Whichever is easier.


On Nissa's XelNaga:

Space nerds are fine by me. They did exhibit this. I believe, though, that the nerds were the ones leading the expedition in the Korpulu, but there might be a Wayland in their home planet, or flotilla.

Well, bear in mind that "space nerds" is a bit of a simplification. They're a long-lived race, so they'd be something between a nerd and an ancient sage.


On Nissa's XelNaga vs Another Race:

I see this in our own world. Some secret few want to control everything, even their own kind; some want to have all the power, control or not, they're on top; Some just want to experience nature, and take some of nature home with them in their buckets; some just want to watch nature; some want the cool new things, and don't mind what damage they do to nature, animals; some want to manipulate DNA to grow ears on them, organs for their use.

I'll add Mr. Scott's Engineer's into the equation, and our own debates about trans-humanism and genetic engineering.

The perfect weapon is created, the Zerg, at least from the view of one faction among the Xel'Naga. To others this is proof eternal life can be achieved: if one can transfer one's consciousness in the network of consciousness through purity of essence, and live in perfect form, one has achieved eternal life.

Others see this as an abomination; others see this as meddling with things that shouldn't be meddled with, etc.

The Xel'Naga were viewed as gods, but they are not. They're ancient, but nothing new is under the galactic black sun. Death is inevitable, life is meaningless, maybe if we defeat death, we find meaning. But it's all vanity. Thus, starcraft.

Having a Xel'Naga with differing thoughts would make them more interesting. Why they wanted purity of essence, at least in their varying definitions of it, becomes a source of contention. Goes for purity of form as well.

Consider the Temple on Shakuras. It could have been made to wipe out their own creations if ever they had to. Either by necessity, or if something goes wrong. Or it could be some other faction's bomb waiting until the creation of the Xel'Naga ever succeeds -- a way out for someone else or themselves.


----------------------

What do you think? That's all I can add for now. Haven't got much sleep. I'll think more.

Well, in my mind, there wasn't a huge difference between another race and another faction. I was leaning towards another race because it's less like SC2, but at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter, because whether it's a race or a faction, the real difference is mental/philosophical rather than physical. Either way, I would prefer not to delve too deep, because in storytelling, especially video game storytelling, it's better to leave large story gaps for the audience to fill. Let's not answer that question, why not? We'll just have Duran or whoever talk about "masters" and "makers", and not specify too much what is what.

I don't like the "life is meaningless" philosophy angle. It would make more sense if they believed in meaning. The Xel'Naga themselves would believe that the meaning of life is life, and the study of it. They believe that the meaning of life is to learn how everything works, and because they are so powerful and long-lived, they believe that they will one day achieve this goal (this should be the aspect of the Xel'Naga most idealized by the 'Toss, imo). Duran's masters, on the other hand, should believe that it's important to go further -- not merely to learn about life, but to take that learning and focus the universe's beings into what they believe their knowledge reveals as the perfect way of life. They have a "Dao", so to speak. That meaning gives birth to Starcraft.

[GnaReffotsirk]

That's an interesting parallel. How Duran creates hybrids, and your idea on how he can change his form, I mean.

Jesus in the bible was shown to be capable of such a feat. He would appear in multiple areas at once, his apostles would not recognize him by appearance, but by his ways and words. It's weird.

I have no idea if quantum teleportation is the method used, as per described today. Maybe it is possible to "pass through walls" in a sense, like how electricity works. You don't destroy information, rather, transfer it without cut-and-paste method. The current theory is too mechanical for my taste.

If we take the position that we are simply "borrowing" space-time as we exist, like moving images on an LCD screen, where each pixel is simply taken up as a space to project form, then we can essentially appear from one corner of the monitor to the other without going through the points in between them.

But I digress.

[Nissa]

That's an interesting parallel. How Duran creates hybrids, and your idea on how he can change his form, I mean.

Jesus in the bible was shown to be capable of such a feat. He would appear in multiple areas at once, his apostles would not recognize him by appearance, but by his ways and words. It's weird.

I have no idea if quantum teleportation is the method used, as per described today. Maybe it is possible to "pass through walls" in a sense, like how electricity works. You don't destroy information, rather, transfer it without cut-and-paste method. The current theory is too mechanical for my taste.

If we take the position that we are simply "borrowing" space-time as we exist, like moving images on an LCD screen, where each pixel is simply taken up as a space to project form, then we can essentially appear from one corner of the monitor to the other without going through the points in between them.

But I digress.

Well, I wasn't suggesting that that was how Jesus did it, I was suggesting that what I just read might be a good idea for how to limit Duran and make him more than just a generic shapechanger. I honestly hated how he was in HotS, and I suspect that many other fans did too, which is why Blizzard changed it into a projection thing in LotV.

Hey, did you have any ideas for some Protoss characters?

[GnaReffotsirk]

My thinking is to utilize the ones already in the game. Haven't gotten into the toss yet, but for sure preserver Rohana won't be playing a significant part.

I feel DT tribal leaders, former Judicators, survivors that joined Aldaris.

Artanis would not play a leadership role in politics, but will play a commanding role. I want to continue his arc in bw as a protoss commander, and how he will stand up to his promise in upholding the Khala's law as promised during their escape from Aiur.

Zeratul would not be disrespected, and will be asked to lead the DT. But he will refuse. He will be the one who will take the Hero's journey (MC), while Artanis will be the impact character.

Their dynamics will be a contrast between the new blood and old ways. (I will have to sleep on this one, but at least in some sense, this would be felt/explored). Artanis' difficulty in upholding the Templar tradition, vs Zeratul's tendencies to follow his usual manner, which comes from way back. Or the likes.

Zeratul will have to learn to deny himself/control his impulse to serve all protoss, in some way. Thematically, he will be the guy who must turn from the path of passion, and learn the depths of Raszagal's leadership. But in the end, he just can't take it to himself to be the leader that's expected of him. There's just something more satisfying to wear his emotions on his sleeve than be a symbol of order, rule, safety.

He has gone through the horrors of such false ideas, born out of fear, neglect, and distrust.

"We are responsible for our own actions", he said. "Granting power to some phantom, some face sitting on a golden chair, who might not even realize you exist, to rule over you is foolishness. And a guide," his tone mellows down, "a guide you have no need of another, but the silent voice that makes you tremble or be at peace. That is the one you must seek. I have searched the stars, only to find the answer echo in the lives I have left behind. Even those whom I have failed to protect."

Khaldalis will be there. The guy had an intro, we should use that. XD He will be the skeptic/impulsive character. He wants Aiur, and that makes him restless.

His counterpart will be the khalai Karax. The believer/controlled character.

[ragnarok]

In what way, Rag? See, back then there was only the Xel'Naga that were the oldest race. Duran would automatically be part of that age. He could be a XN, or some other that belonged in the age of XN.

Immediately, I associated things, and thought Duran was recreating the Xel'Naga's initial goals. Now, with Zeratul's reaction, I got the thought that this design of his is a corrupt image of what the Xel'naga had in mind.

Why? See, Duran was shown to be deceptive, can infiltrate without being found out, as a terran then as an infested terran. And being deceptive during the course of the story was a theme that argued, "all deceptive people are bad, have their minds twisted, and do what the opposite of what they would have done if they were not corrupted."

Now, while Kerrigan and the matriarch were corrupted, Aldaris was the counterpoint: "Those who are true, and know the truth, ends up being betrayed." This happened to Fenix and Duke. They were not corrupt, they were loyal, and true to their word.

Now comes duran, with a voice echoing, almost electric, deep, and he's been deceptive, and have changed form, and speaks in cryptic tones, and Zeratul, the wise and being the one to silence Aldaris in the past with his lines, our actual point of view in the story, reacts like he's talking to a mad scientist.

All that combined tells me Duran is old and powerful, maybe Xel'Naga or at least someone who belongs during the era where the Xel'Naga were actively pursuing their goals. His creation here is an abomination because our point of view character tells us. It must look horrible, and as far as perfect in form has been implied, it doesn't mean like this. (Since the protoss were once deemed perfect in form and essence, but lost essence, a protoss saying something is an abomination means it's not actually perfect, at least in this case, our perspective through Zeratul).

I'd say, 100%.

Interesting points. I still wasn't convinced back then for Duran to be a Xel'Naga himself though. Granted we didn't know much about the Xel'Naga via the SC1 and BW lore, but nothing seemed to suggest the Xel'Naga were evil, or for splinter groups, etc.

Something that belonged in the age of the Xel'Naga made more sense, I always wanted Duran to have been an enemy of the Xel'Naga. Being Xel'Naga himself (as Tura pointed out) would contradict what he told Zeratul of being a servant of a far greater power.

Of course, if it was related to the Xel'Naga, then it's easy to speculate that the far greater power he served was that of a Xel'Naga, but that didn't make HIM one. By making him Xel'Naga, then his master would have to belong to an even older race, maybe something that predates the Xel'Naga.

[Visions of Khas]

With regard to the protoss...

Can we establish what it is that makes High Templar energies and Void energies so different? Instead of having all the same powers?

And I'd like to leave dead, glassed worlds dead. Not recolonized, like Mar Sara and Chau Sara. Not frozen back over, like Braxis. Dead. I mean, it's okay if glassing is like lightning, releasing a shit ton of nitrogen into the atmosphere to promote future regrowth, but that's going to take years to happen.

[drakolobo]

for me duran is first pseudo xelnaga, is hybrid made for amon, well his dailogs was very low for a xelnaga, Amo for me was best with reference all bad, keep help you with fire
:D
"Amon does not see death as failure. He sees death as the highest ideal. I have seen it in His heart. What did He name our dueling grounds? The Pits of Ascension. He mocks us. Amon does not celebrate the winners. He salutes the losers. They are the ones who ascend in His eyes. He makes us carve each other into bits because that is His plan for us all."

[Visions of Khas]

I'm not sure who posted it, maybe it was Gradius, but there was an idea that Duran actually saw himself as a good guy, trying to usher back in the Xel'Naga, never knowing he was being manipulated towards nefarious ends. I liked it.

[GnaReffotsirk]

What are your guys thoughts on Aiur, and the Dark Voice?

Edit: On Psionic Energy and Void Energy, we could think of them as particle and antiparticle. Such that when Tassadar merged them together, he was destroyed, and a massive amount of energy was released.

[ragnarok]

I'm not sure who posted it, maybe it was Gradius, but there was an idea that Duran actually saw himself as a good guy, trying to usher back in the Xel'Naga, never knowing he was being manipulated towards nefarious ends. I liked it.

Good and evil are just POVs, VoK.

It's hard to say if Duran was manipulated for those ends based on the SC1 and BW lore. But then again, we didn't fully understand just what the purpose of the experiments on the Zerg and Protoss were in the first place.

[GnaReffotsirk]

POV good and evil? That's where the fall started. There is good, there is evil. Good is tied to the benefit of one or more entities in a system. The system is good, if everything is taken care of.

Evil can be seen as causes of distress, while good can be "causes of pleasure". Cognitive definitions of what is good and evil, however, is a view from isolation. If a psychopath derives pleasure and well being from causing distress in another, that is no longer good. It is an abomination.

Don't get confused by the many errors in our human view of what is good and evil. Some say it's good to have sex with animals; some don't. Truth is it's evil. The reason is simple, the objection muddies the simplicity of the matter.

This is where we can derive an issue to place the Xel'Naga on.

Their interference with the natural evolution of species, is that beneficial or not? Would destroying everything, now that they've done the damage, if it ever was, good or evil?

Judging good or evil from an isolated view is not only dangerous, but limited. Especially if it is derived from the measure of pleasure vs distress. Immediate pleasure, but long term damage, etc. There are factors that must be put into consideration.

Is posting this idea good or evil? Stories and themes are explorations of this very question, and apparently, human beings are not very well equipped to arrive at true and complete measure of what is good or evil, logically, holistically, or both.

Take a look at our legal systems.

In any case, I think VoK's point is not to make them demonic or simplistic. Like diablo and his ilk, taken at face value, (i don't know if blizzard has expanded on their motivations), whose sole motivation is destruction, corruption, and malice.

[Visions of Khas]

In any case, I think VoK's point is not to make them demonic or simplistic. Like diablo and his ilk, taken at face value

^-- This guy gets it.


What are your guys thoughts on Aiur, and the Dark Voice?

Were you wanting to re-use Amon, or just the concept of some shadowed malevolence pulling string in the background?

And what of Aiur? What are your thoughts? Maybe that the Protoss should lose Aiur and it becomes some hallowed tomb world?


Their interference with the natural evolution of species, is that beneficial or not?
The other races do this, too. Zerg are the most obvious offenders. Maybe the Protoss cultivate some lesser races via the Dae'Uhl. The terrans probably have its share of genetically modified plants, animals, and humans. So it would be a matter of degrees.

Speaking of the Dae-Uhl, I think it would be interesting if some custodian race under the Protoss were to be mentioned or make a cameo. Perhaps a Protoss hero laments the loss of a particular world, with its most prominent sentient race on the cusp of extinction due to the Brood Wars. Maybe he/she draws a parallel between that race and the Protoss race itself.

[Visions of Khas]

So before StarCraft II, this was my head canon back in the day. The myth and legends of the Xel'Naga can be attributed to a collection of races.



A lone exploratory vessel from a non-FTL race is adrift in space, most of her crew dead. The survivors take stock of their provisions; with systems failing, there is no hope to return home.

As it drifts, radar returns reveal a cluster of large asteroids. Abruptly, the Explorer-scientists discover the asteroids are actually living creatures, their Colossal bodies apparently made of coral and crystal. The telepathic exchange is long, communication difficult as the Titanic, asteroid-like creatures think on larger timeframes than the small Explorer species. In the days that follow, barely two complete sentences pass between the crew and the Titans, before the vessel shuts down.

The Titans, their interest piqued, never before encountered such tiny lives before, want to explore further. So, through genetic and psychic gifts natural to them, they fashion smaller creatures, much like those Explorers, and send these Progeny out into the void to explore. And they wait.

The Progeny seed several worlds, launched haphazardly into space. They explore many worlds, and finally come into contact with the Explorers. In the decades since the exploratory vessel was launched, the Explorer species encountered their Great Filter and fell to ruin. They are now at a pre-industrial level on the homeworld. The Explorers and Progeny meet; tensions arise, but are soon alleviated as the Progeny aid the Explorers. Each sees the other as deliverers; the Explorers are grateful for the aid from the Progeny, while the Progeny institutionally desire to learn of and from the Explorers.

The Progeny learn, advance, and grow at a remarkable pace. The Explorers once more tame their world, advance their technology, and leave their barren planet for the stars. After years of colonization, however, the Progeny and Explorers find rifts in their relationship. The Progeny advance by leaps and bounds, leaving the Explorers in their wake.

The Explorers look to colonize verdant worlds to call their home. They discover one such world, but it is already inhabited by another sapient race. Like eager children, the Progeny reach out to the Primitives, and their two races begin a relationship. Jealous, and needing the Primitives' homeworld for their own, the Explorers invade -- much to the shock and horror of the Progeny.

War breaks out. The Progeny and Primitives are devastated; but due to their reliance on the Progeny, the Explorers in effect cripple themselves. The Primitives, their world ashambles and survivors few, near extinction. The three races try to make the best of their deteriorating situation on the Primitives' world, while the Progeny instinctively call out to their Titan creators.

In several years' time, the Titan return, their ponderous but inquisitive minds elated to rediscover their Progeny. Many of the Progeny are assimilated by the Titans so the latter may gain their knowledge. The Primitives and Explorers are horrified by this new development. And the Titans learn of the joys and horrors of these lesser lifeforms.

With no alternative, the Progeny usher the Primitives and Explorers aboard the Titans, and they will leave this barren rock together. However, to survive yet another new environment, the Primitives and Explorers will have to adapt, in body and mind. While this last generation will survive and procreate, their descendants will transform into something else entirely. Effectively, these two species fall into extinction, but their memory lives on.

With these stars system barren and unsuitable to life as delicate as the Primitives and Explorers, the small armada of Titans take their charges to a new set of stars -- a galaxy not so far, far away...



I had this whole saga mapped out back in the BlizzForums days. I imagined the experiences of the various races of the XelNaga myth kind of repeating/mirroring the history and nature of protoss, terran and zerg. I called them collectively the Logoricans (derived from logos, Greek for "word").

[GnaReffotsirk]

On Voice in the Darkness:
-------------------------------
I don't know who the Voice in the Darkness is, nor the ideas developed for it. I just know it through discussions before, that there is a Voice in the Darkness, but I don't know what it does, or how it impacts the world of SC.


On Amon:
------------
I don't plan to bring in Amon. I plan on the Xel'Naga making an appearance, but not Amon.


On Aiur:
----------
As for Aiur, I think it's a crucial world for the protoss. I consider Aiur as part of their biology, and not just for sentimental value.


On Dae'Uhl:
--------------
As for the Dae'Uhl , I have a character for them, Vicar Setharun, but he's going to be on survivors, not sure I'll have him appear in the spin-off. However, my idea of the Dae'Uhl, is that these ships are lightly equipped (motherships), and are staffed by robotics. Only a few protoss would be on those ships. Maybe 12 max per ship.

The Dae'Uhl ships have systems that can turn it into a war machine though. I thought they were once used as off-world bases. A point where the Psi Matrix can be connected to, allowing the protoss to deploy far from Aiur. Their previous attempt at interfering militarily would have utilized these ships as starbases, thus they'd be outfitted heavily with arrays of weaponry, defense, and deployment modules.

When the Dae'Uhl directive was passed as law, these ships remained combat ready, but much of their assortments were retracted. Crews were pulled from them back into Aiur.

These ships became a reminder of their mistake, to some a prison for exiles, to some a place to meditate upon, a place of quiet, etc.,

Vicar Setharun was sent to command a Dae'Uhl expedition for his disagreements with a few Judicators on something. At least that's how I used the Dae'Uhl when viewed internally. From outsiders it is an honor to be there, but in reality it's just another means of control. Or something like that.

Anyway, that's what I think of the Dae'Uhl.


How about you guys? What do you want to see? About Aiur, the Zerg, Terrans, etc.

On the Explorers, Titans, Primitives:
-------------------------------------------

I've read it through to the end, but I got lost with their names, and who's doing what. I wish you'd give them names. I'm really sorry, I want to get a picture of it, but I get lost as I kept reading. It's entirely my fault.

Who became the Xel'Naga among them? Or is it everyone of them, members of each faction becoming the Xel'Naga? I'm really sorry, if you can give them names, I'd much appreciate it. It looks really interesting.

[Visions of Khas]

I've read it through to the end, but I got lost with their names, and who's doing what
The particulars and aren't terribly important. The names are mere place holders.

The Titans are what we know as Worldships, gigantic living beings from the depths of space that have never encountered sentient, terrestrial life (eg You, me, Protoss, etc). Inspired by the doomed band of Explorers, the Titans birth the Progeny to explore the (relatively) microscopic world. The Progeny found the Explorers, and grew with them. The Explorers devastate their own homeworld, forcing both races to find a new home. The conflict with the Primitives is really unnecessary, it's simply to add a dimension to the race dynamics; it essentially shows the Progeny that the Explorer race is capable of violence and genocide.

In the end, the Progeny call out to their Titan forefathers to rescue the collective. The Explorers and Primitives are forced to adapt biologically to the Titans. In essence, the smaller species become symbiotically linked with the Worldships/Titans. All of this is simply to inform their background and provide depth and understanding, as most alien species are envisioned as being very flat and one-dimensional. The hardships they endure may also provide impetus to create new life to atone for past sins.


On Voice in the Darkness:

Oh, the shadow creature from the manga? I always assumed it was Amon, despite Blizzard's arguments against the idea.


As for Aiur, I think it's a crucial world for the protoss. I consider Aiur as part of their biology, and not just for sentimental value.

So, a symbiotic relationship?

[GnaReffotsirk]

Thank you, VoK. I think that cleared it up a bit for me. I feel there's more to what you posted about their story, and I'm very interested to learn about it.

On Amon and Voice in the Darkness (Dark Voice):

Is the Voice in the Darkness and Dark Voice the same entity? I don't know squat about these items. And I'm confused now. I thought it was from a book? Or, are they the same entities? Dark Voice and Voice in the Darkness, I mean.

On Aiur:

Haven't figured it out yet, but my ideas will most likely stem from Aiur's immense psionic field, their protogenesis having been initiated by the XelNaga to see what comes out of it, and later discovering a highly gifted race, in terms of psionic abilities.

My intention is to bind the protoss race to Aiur biologically to explain why they consider it sacred, and highly regarded. Sentimentality has been dismissed previously as for why they should not retake it, or just forget about Aiur for other habitable worlds, but I feel there is something else to Aiur that makes it almost impossible for the protoss to just let it go.

It could be as simple as long-term effects to their biology, reproduction, or mental stability. But that remains to be sought after in thought.

If you were to think of a biological reason, what would it be?

[KaiserStratosTygo]

It appears to me that this is actually gaining traction, I want to help in some way as well.

[Turalyon]

On Aiur:

Haven't figured it out yet, but my ideas will most likely stem from Aiur's immense psionic field, their protogenesis having been initiated by the XelNaga to see what comes out of it, and later discovering a highly gifted race, in terms of psionic abilities.

My intention is to bind the protoss race to Aiur biologically to explain why they consider it sacred, and highly regarded. Sentimentality has been dismissed previously as for why they should not retake it, or just forget about Aiur for other habitable worlds, but I feel there is something else to Aiur that makes it almost impossible for the protoss to just let it go.

It could be as simple as long-term effects to their biology, reproduction, or mental stability. But that remains to be sought after in thought.

If you were to think of a biological reason, what would it be?

I like where this is going. The Protoss are a by-product of the planet, which in itself was prepared by the Xel'Naga to eventually produce what we know as Protoss, so involving the planets' inherent psionic matrix and somehow tying that to the physical well being of the Protoss (that the planet itself is partly Protoss if you want to think of it in that way) makes a lot of sense. It's not just sentimentality that they take it back, it's vital to any continued existence.

It kinda provides some awesome alternate answers to some questions, like why Protoss are partially plant-like (they use photosynthesis) and also why the Overmind would want to root itself onto Aiur (it's essentially the key to assimilating the Protoss).

[Visions of Khas]

How do we explain the Dark Templar and their independence from Aiur, then? Just their use of the Void? Shakuras' own "cosmic energy nexus?"

[Nissa]

Aaaaaaah....so much to reply to...


My thinking is to utilize the ones already in the game. Haven't gotten into the toss yet, but for sure preserver Rohana won't be playing a significant part.

Absolutely no Preservers, please. They are pretty ridiculous in concept, and the whole idea of them contradicts the manual. So if Rohana stays, she has a new job.


I feel DT tribal leaders, former Judicators, survivors that joined Aldaris.

Don't forget survivors on Aiur, Khalai people trying to resettle old holdings/new places to live, and Templar pushing for military rights.


Artanis would not play a leadership role in politics, but will play a commanding role. I want to continue his arc in bw as a protoss commander, and how he will stand up to his promise in upholding the Khala's law as promised during their escape from Aiur.

You mean military as opposed to general? No, I prefer Artanis as a general political leader because he represents a link between the Khala and the DT. But since he's a young thing, he isn't terribly able to control everyone, so factional leaders would have considerable power.

But I do like the idea of him keeping his promise. That's a very Artie thing to do. The way I see it, Artanis should be having a major conflict between what he knows is his duty, vs his passion for saving the day and being like Tassadar. That's the crux of his character, and he's not just some guy who's already got things figured out.


Zeratul would not be disrespected, and will be asked to lead the DT. But he will refuse. He will be the one who will take the Hero's journey (MC), while Artanis will be the impact character.

I disagree. Zeratul does not have the mindset to lead properly, as he's more the operative-type than a leader type. Probably no one would offer him leadership. Also, a leadership offer would imply that Zeratul was around after BW. I prefer a Zeratul who is off doing his own thing, to return at a plot relevant or otherwise critical moment.

And no Hero's Journey.



Zeratul will have to learn to deny himself/control his impulse to serve all protoss, in some way. Thematically, he will be the guy who must turn from the path of passion, and learn the depths of Raszagal's leadership. But in the end, he just can't take it to himself to be the leader that's expected of him. There's just something more satisfying to wear his emotions on his sleeve than be a symbol of order, rule, safety.

No. Quite frankly, Zeratul is old. He's more set in his ways than someone like Artanis would be, and lacks the passion that characterizes a young person. His dark eyes in BW symbolizes this. In other words, he already knows he's not the leader type -- every single decision he made in BW was poorly thought out and led to Kerrigan winning. Zeratul excels in working in a smaller group of well-trained people with a specific goal, like killing a cerebrate or stealing data discs from a battlecruiser. Zeratul works best when someone else (Tassadar, Razsagal) is providing the large-scale leadership goals, and Zeratul's task is to find specific ways to bring these goals about.

Zeratul's arc should be about trusting again. He, like Raynor, spent BW being downtrodden and faced with failure. He likewise should be suffering a horrible depression, and he needs to learn to come out of it, because only by hope does anyone succeed. He should also be the one with the most objective data on the hybrids, because his most logical course of action after BW would be to track them down and investigate them as much as possible.


Khaldalis will be there. The guy had an intro, we should use that. XD He will be the skeptic/impulsive character. He wants Aiur, and that makes him restless.

His counterpart will be the khalai Karax. The believer/controlled character.

Yuck, Karax sucks. The conroller character shouldn't be specified. If we keep Kaldalis, let's change his name. It sounds too much like a smashup of already known Protoss names.



With regard to the protoss...

Can we establish what it is that makes High Templar energies and Void energies so different? Instead of having all the same powers?

And I'd like to leave dead, glassed worlds dead. Not recolonized, like Mar Sara and Chau Sara. Not frozen back over, like Braxis. Dead. I mean, it's okay if glassing is like lightning, releasing a shit ton of nitrogen into the atmosphere to promote future regrowth, but that's going to take years to happen.

Okay! But let's try to have a mission on one of these worlds, so we can see what this type of devastation looks like. Or maybe we can have some Terran scientists trying to figure out how to bring it back, but of course they won't be able to accomplish this during the course of the game.


What are your guys thoughts on Aiur, and the Dark Voice?

Edit: On Psionic Energy and Void Energy, we could think of them as particle and antiparticle. Such that when Tassadar merged them together, he was destroyed, and a massive amount of energy was released.

I think Aiur's fate depends on what Kerrigan wants (perhaps the hybrids are past khaydarins at this point, as Duran would have been able to access them while "infested"). Absolutely no dark voice. Thumbs up on the energies.


So before StarCraft II, this was my head canon back in the day. The myth and legends of the Xel'Naga can be attributed to a collection of races.



A lone exploratory vessel from a non-FTL race is adrift in space, most of her crew dead. The survivors take stock of their provisions; with systems failing, there is no hope to return home.

As it drifts, radar returns reveal a cluster of large asteroids. Abruptly, the Explorer-scientists discover the asteroids are actually living creatures, their Colossal bodies apparently made of coral and crystal. The telepathic exchange is long, communication difficult as the Titanic, asteroid-like creatures think on larger timeframes than the small Explorer species. In the days that follow, barely two complete sentences pass between the crew and the Titans, before the vessel shuts down.

The Titans, their interest piqued, never before encountered such tiny lives before, want to explore further. So, through genetic and psychic gifts natural to them, they fashion smaller creatures, much like those Explorers, and send these Progeny out into the void to explore. And they wait...


That's cool and all, but I honestly don't like it. It doesn't feel Starcrafty enough. One of SC2's failures was its lack of grit, and I don't see the grit here that would make for an appropriate story. That, and I don't see how that could affect a current sequel. It doesn't have much in terms of story potential. Not to mention that the Xel'Naga are generally going to be better in player imagination than being explained fully.

Honestly, this sounds like a story you should keep for your own and adapt into an original work.

[Nissa]

On Amon:
------------
I don't plan to bring in Amon. I plan on the Xel'Naga making an appearance, but not Amon.

*applauds*



On Aiur:
----------
As for Aiur, I think it's a crucial world for the protoss. I consider Aiur as part of their biology, and not just for sentimental value.

I don't like this. For one thing, it's basically a retcon, because there's never been any real biological connection presented originally. In my opinion, the best option here is both the Khaydarin crystals and sentiment. I don't think us modern folk really understand sentamentalism and how it can drive people to love their homeland. We simply don't know what it's like unless we read about it, and even then we won't really know unless we've experienced that kind of loss. But when you look at books from older days, you begin to understand that sentiment and love of country is very powerful, and cannot be lightly dismissed.

Also, the khaydarins are powerful things that they should probably do their best to get back from the Zerg, or potentially try to keep away from the hybrids, depending on if they know whether or not the hybrids really do need them for something (or in turn simply want to keep them from the Protoss).



On Dae'Uhl:
--------------
As for the Dae'Uhl , I have a character for them, Vicar Setharun, but he's going to be on survivors, not sure I'll have him appear in the spin-off. However, my idea of the Dae'Uhl, is that these ships are lightly equipped (motherships), and are staffed by robotics. Only a few protoss would be on those ships. Maybe 12 max per ship.

The Dae'Uhl ships have systems that can turn it into a war machine though. I thought they were once used as off-world bases. A point where the Psi Matrix can be connected to, allowing the protoss to deploy far from Aiur. Their previous attempt at interfering militarily would have utilized these ships as starbases, thus they'd be outfitted heavily with arrays of weaponry, defense, and deployment modules.

When the Dae'Uhl directive was passed as law, these ships remained combat ready, but much of their assortments were retracted. Crews were pulled from them back into Aiur.

These ships became a reminder of their mistake, to some a prison for exiles, to some a place to meditate upon, a place of quiet, etc.,

Vicar Setharun was sent to command a Dae'Uhl expedition for his disagreements with a few Judicators on something. At least that's how I used the Dae'Uhl when viewed internally. From outsiders it is an honor to be there, but in reality it's just another means of control. Or something like that.

Anyway, that's what I think of the Dae'Uhl.

What are you talking about? The Dae'Uhl is a principle, not a group. It's the principle of stewardship over "lesser" races like humans. Or is this some sort of SC2 thing that I missed?



Get in on this Kaiser. What's your views on a proper sequel to BW?

[Gradius]

I like where this is going. The Protoss are a by-product of the planet, which in itself was prepared by the Xel'Naga to eventually produce what we know as Protoss, so involving the planets' inherent psionic matrix and somehow tying that to the physical well being of the Protoss (that the planet itself is partly Protoss if you want to think of it in that way) makes a lot of sense. It's not just sentimentality that they take it back, it's vital to any continued existence.

It kinda provides some awesome alternate answers to some questions, like why Protoss are partially plant-like (they use photosynthesis) and also why the Overmind would want to root itself onto Aiur (it's essentially the key to assimilating the Protoss).
So what is the psionic matrix? In SC2 they made it an artificial construct instead of a natural one, which I'm not necessarily uncool with, but I always thought it was something the planet emanated naturally because of all the K crystals or strong magnetic field or something.

[GnaReffotsirk]

What I know is that the protoss have only built upon an already existing tech built by the XelNaga. I thought the Xel'Naga had errected this technology (in part or whole) to start the protoss protogenesis.

I begin to speculate then that the Psionic Matrix upon which the protoss built their artificial one (to power their structures) has something to do with them on a biological level (or perhaps some pseudo spiritual/mental/existential thing).

To note, Khas was able to retrieve information on how to access their communal link via a k crystal. And they regard K crystals as sacred, possibly because of unknown potential knowledge or whatever they can retrieve from it, or are still trying to discover.

The K crystals were the objects utilized in this system to generate energy from. IIRC

[Visions of Khas]

I always thought Artanis' Templar were just taking out the Warp Matrix, not the Psi Matrix.

[Gradius]

I always thought Artanis' Templar were just taking out the Warp Matrix, not the Psi Matrix.
That would make sense. But it said psi matrix, so... :P

[Visions of Khas]

Well that's dumb.

[ragnarok]

The K crystals were the objects utilized in this system to generate energy from. IIRC

Except they could do more than just that. We've known from SC1 that even if the Overmind never told us their other purposes, we've seen them being used to control zerg as well. It was one of the disappointments in SC2's lore that for the most part the Protoss people used it merely as an energizer battery.

[Turalyon]

So what is the psionic matrix? In SC2 they made it an artificial construct instead of a natural one, which I'm not necessarily uncool with, but I always thought it was something the planet emanated naturally because of all the K crystals or strong magnetic field or something.

It could be partly both artifical and natural because though the "artificial construct" the Protoss devised draws and distributes this energy in a more efficient and convenient way, the original energy itself does stem from the naturally occurring Khaydarin crystals native to that planet.


What I know is that the protoss have only built upon an already existing tech built by the XelNaga. I thought the Xel'Naga had errected this technology (in part or whole) to start the protoss protogenesis.

I begin to speculate then that the Psionic Matrix upon which the protoss built their artificial one (to power their structures) has something to do with them on a biological level (or perhaps some pseudo spiritual/mental/existential thing).

I'm really digging the implications of some weird symbiotic relationship between Aiur and the Protoss that this evokes. It helps them feel more unique and alien.

[Visions of Khas]

I'm okay with this symbiotic link, too, even if the protoss can adapt themselves to live off of it. Would this lead to regular Khalai pilgrimmages from the outer colonies back to Aiur? Do DTs do something similar? Is there a sort of Mecca on Aiur's surface?

[GnaReffotsirk]

Maybe they can somehow extend it via Nexus points, unknowingly or otherwise. But being immersed in it on Aiur is preferred. Processed food vs. Home grown, all natural. Something like that, maybe..

[ragnarok]

Maybe they can somehow extend it via Nexus points, unknowingly or otherwise. But being immersed in it on Aiur is preferred. Processed food vs. Home grown, all natural. Something like that, maybe..

Possibly, but I don't quite see the whole symbiotic link, not of that magnitude anyways. That being said however, the Cerebrates had a symbiotic link to the Overmind. It's possible Amon used something the Protoss had (but more voluntary) to create his own version.

Still, I don't quite see how you plan to make this link on a biological role.

[GnaReffotsirk]

Pylons, psi. Supply depot, supply.. ?

[Visions of Khas]

Since getting back into WarHammer thanks to the Fall of Cadia event, I've been reacquainting myself with the lore. I've rediscovered the diversity and independence of the Space Marine chapters -- both the Founding chapters and Successors -- and I can see some realism to it.

Though much of the Koprulu Sector is barren wasteland, it is still a big place with habitable colony worlds (naturally or artificially -- though mostly artificial). Some of the Confederate Squadrons probably recruit and hire from particular worlds and colonies. Each one could take on unique practices and traditions and creeds. Due to the diverse and sprawling nature of Terran space, each squadron probably has official allegiance to the Confederacy or Dominion, but the people would be most interested in their own respective worlds -- people just want to keep their families safe.

Say, for example, the bulk of Alpha Squadron was recruited from an Antigan colony, or even Mar Sara. This would make it more believable for an entire military division to whole-sale defect with their general. These people just want justice and protection for their families.


This might be an interesting foil or counter point to the remarkable unity of the Protoss forces. Even though a Protoss may hail from a world beyond Aiur, their dedication to the Homeworld takes precedence. Maybe even introduce a measure of "indoctrination" in Khala society towards this goal.

[KaiserStratosTygo]

"Get in on this Kaiser. What's your views on a proper sequel to BW?"

I have a few ideas regarding the various threads left over.

~~~DURAN~~~

one of the ones that I had thought of was regarding Duran, it was a plot twist where he wasn't a "random shapeshifter" or "xel'naga" like everyone expected, but the very essence of the overmind made manifest, at some point following Episode III he took control of a very real Samir Duran killed him and took his image to blend in.

here was some plot "evidence" that I used to suggest this:
-The rift above the overmind and the stuff that went inside when Tassadar slayed it's body was the essence of the Overmind as well as some biomass that would allow him to retain some form of corporeal existence.
-He helped his "daughter" only until he no longer needed her, helping Kerrigan get rid of his old enemies and allow him to capture any zerg or protoss that he could to continue his grand experiment
-He knew the zerg just as well if not better than Kerrigan throughout Kerrigan's campaign and controlled zerg himself after he "killed" stukov
-He intentionally encouraged the UED to destroy the hives on Tarsonis to minimize the damage to the swarms
-He has surprisingly good knowledge of Protoss technology possibly learned from either Zeratul or his first assimilation attempt
-Duran is a bit hesitant to take out the second overmind, as it may be useful to him later
-He conveniently left Kerrigan to her potential end once she burned every bridge possible, and fled to the Dark moon to continue his experiments with the spoils
he gathered from Kerrigan's uprising.
-Duran's spiel about the "far greater power" is a metaphor as he's concluding the experiments of his species' father's the Xel'Naga, possibly to atone for killing them off
or BECAUSE he killed and assimilated them he now has a greater understanding and interest in what they were trying to do, or perhaps the assimilation actually effected his own
mind as well? (I didn't get that far to answer that question)

Other things:
-No he did not intend to die on Aiur like shitty SC2 implied (or didn't, I don't fucking know anymore because the retcons, retcon themselves now)
-He is capable of making mistakes
-Kerrigan was not designed as a successor (why the fuck would she be?) she was two things in this idea: A, a weapon to counter protoss. B, A prototype to see what a potential hybrid could be like.
-Duran abandoned Kerrigan on Char after she got too powerful and took out some of the assets he might intended on using himself (like Ovie 2 and some cerebrates)
-As Duran/Overmind stated to Zeratul, Kerrigan fulfilled her role, and whatever happened to her on Char Aleph was irrelevant to him as the UED's human "tainted" control of the broods was done away with
and thus the only REAL threat to his experiment was eliminated.
-This isn't great evidence but i'll put it in for shits 'n' giggles, both Duran and the Overmind have flowery psuedo biblical speech patterns when they're being themselves

~~~MENGSK~~~
Mengsk is left in a similiar position as Jim Raynor in Episode I, a small band of followers but now the ability to work in the shadows, he bides his time and acts intelligent oncemore, letting the inevitable
UED invasion and whatever other wars continue with little of his own presence. his philosophy noow is "let them break their teeth on each-other" make some deals with the KMC (who are now the top non-UED terrans)
and let Kerrigan burn more bridges and self destruct.

~~KERRIGAN and later RAYNOR~~
She destroyed any and all attempts at any kind of diplomacy, and since thre's no BULLSHIT fanboy style plot coupon to force her to live at all costs, she inevitably loses more and more control. as it turns out.

SURPRISE! Kerrigan is but one human and cannot control the entirety of the swarm on her own (the Overmind had a hard time and he was DESIGNED specifically for controlling zerg) but with only one cerebrate and no
intrinsic knowledge on how to make more she's forced on the defensive as raids by protoss/terran splinter groups/UED/Your Dad/whatever deal some minor but not entirely pointless damage, without any ability to decieve
enemies that won't show her the time of day, she's entirely out of her element (like Mengsk was) and just like Mengsk, she is eventually defeated in some way.

some ideas on that:
The Cerebrates that survived didn't go with that dumbass SC2 offscreen death shit and build up their own swarms, possibly vying with Kerrigan for the Aiur Zerg which allows Khalai who care not for integration with the Nerazim
to retake the planet in a slow methodical way, rather than some bombastic predictable EPIC!!!@!212 shit.

Kerrigan loses due to being the CAUSE of a power vacuum rather than the one taking advantage of one. by this point the Zerg are no longer the final boss villains and have to play their cards right to survive.

Or:

Kerrigan makes the mistake of using infested Human agents herself, and SURPRISE! gets betrayed by one the smarter more savvy ones that might hold a grudge as she did. continuing the cycle of abusers/victims/abusers

After she inevitably loses...
Two things could happen:
1. She goes through a very slow, painful and kind of humiliating redemption arc where nobody and their dog believes a word she says but does just enough for certain actors to give her a chance and she does just enough over a couple of episodes
to earn a bit of trust back, perhaps she is deinfested (Permenantly not that dumbass SC2 flip flop shit) and works with the Protoss finally coming to some conclusion that they weren't so different and at multiple points had the same goal.
her redemption is earned through death, no godhood. perhaps she dies protecting a Protoss leader and or Jim Raynor, or intentionally leaves herself behind on some world to distract an unstoppable force, long enough for her allies to escape or something

2. She goes out like an asshole, Ray Ray eventually does get lucky, opts to blow her brains out and leaves a badass, but not really, real life ensues, he is the last of the Episode wunners that gets consumed by his own vengeance. Hollow, bitter and with most everyone he knows in these situations:
Tassadar: Dead
Fenix: Dead
Zeratul: Adun knows where?
Artanis: Busy as hell
Mengsk: An asshole betrayer
Kerrigan: An asshole betrayer who's dead
The Commander: Fucked right off
Stukov: enemy turned "ally" as of Res IV, a bitter asshole
Aldaris: Kind of a douche and also dead
Duke: ^
Family: All dead

...He's given up on giving a fuck and begins getting delusions of grandeur that, killing Mengsk would somehow fix everything, so he goes after him, possibly letting the UED do whatever they want this causes an ACTUAL mutiny within his band of perfect angels and some fun political shit can happen, Raynor becomes a bitter, apathetic old man


~~~UED~~~
They come back and wipe the floor with everyone with new technology, not bothering to enslave the Zerg, opting for the protoss strategy of burning planets but with Nukes like the Confeds. The cycle of rebellion continues as many within the UED fleet aren't actually fans of genocide on humans caught between Protes and Zerbz.

~~PROTOSS~~
As mentioned previously they slowly retake Aiur, no final big epic conclusion for that. The Khalai/Nerazim divide, goes deeper with Ulrezaj being an example used by the Khalai bigots, and the Conclave for the Nerazim bigots, various tribes fight among themselves after their common goal of retaking Aiur is complete, but a new charasmatic group of
protoss who are not fans of Khalai, Nerazim or even Artanis' failed centrist stuff comes into being, perhaps a new protoss who has been humiliated during the original SC and BW, someone who'd have good reason to stay in the background for a bit to plot his rise gain the popularity of various tribes and brings the Protoss into a new age of not getting
cucked all the time. They stand against the UED and the LOYALIST Zerg remnants, not for kumbaya greater good, but because they're rage at constantly being on the losing side and finally using their technology, abilities and strategies to effectiveness, not trusting any Kerrigan types or some random Terran schemer. Their age of putting honor ahead of reason
ends due to in part to Tassadar's actions of the past.

basically the Protoss win and not "just barely" or "by the skin of their teeth" they win unequivocally. Still, they have their internal disputes that prevent them from being invincible retaining some degree of a balance of power, but in a way that cycle's back to the very beginning of the series. The Protoss start and end as the dominant power.

I pursued some of this in my Uprising Campaign, but didn't like some other plot points unrelated to this and kind of discontinued after the third episode.

[GnaReffotsirk]

I like your leanings about Kerrigan, and the cerebrates. I don't really like how she goes order 66 on them.

Also bigotry within the factions can only come from leaders speaking to masses who either are ignorant of facts, and/or who already has a bias. Aldaris' coup forces, we could use those guys as well.

I have to check on how "forgiving" the DTs are really, as Zeratul would put it, now that their Matriarch is dead for getting involved. I'm sure she had her defectors.

A few questions to all:

1. How many capital ships can the Terrans realistically produce in 6 years?
2. What are the actual totals in fighting force does the Templar and Dark Templar have?
3. How fast can the protoss rebuild their warmachines given warp-technology. By warp, I'm thinking 3d-printing esque, not teleporting from a manufacturing center on Aiur.
4. How many capital ships do Terrans have after the events of BW?

[Visions of Khas]

Oooh, statistics! :D

I'm doing some reading on navy production. According to this site (http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/how-fast-could-america-build-more-aircraft-carriers-13653), following the Cold War:


Between 1968 and 2009, Newport News built, and the Navy commissioned, ten Nimitz-class carriers—about one every four years. The Navy currently buys one every five years.

All ten Nimitz carriers were constructed over a nearly 40 year period from the Newport News Shipbuilding Company, in Newport News, Virginia. However, production methods improved, and they began a modular construction process that sped up production. Newport News Shipbuilding's facilities cover an area of just under one square mile.

Now granted, since we're on the cusp of automated construction and 3D printing, these methods would be obsolete in the year 2500, and the Confederacy and Dominion devote considerably more resources and real estate to mass production of war vessels. At the same time, Terran technology seems to have stagnated somewhat, especially in the area of AI. How much that would speed things up, I have no idea. I'd actually tap Econ and see what he says about it.

[KaiserStratosTygo]

I like your leanings about Kerrigan, and the cerebrates. I don't really like how she goes order 66 on them.

Also bigotry within the factions can only come from leaders speaking to masses who either are ignorant of facts, and/or who already has a bias. Aldaris' coup forces, we could use those guys as well.

I have to check on how "forgiving" the DTs are really, as Zeratul would put it, now that their Matriarch is dead for getting involved. I'm sure she had her defectors.

A few questions to all:

1. How many capital ships can the Terrans realistically produce in 6 years?
2. What are the actual totals in fighting force does the Templar and Dark Templar have?
3. How fast can the protoss rebuild their warmachines given warp-technology. By warp, I'm thinking 3d-printing esque, not teleporting from a manufacturing center on Aiur.
4. How many capital ships do Terrans have after the events of BW?

I liked one of the ideas here where it was implied that the protoss are much more numerous than we think (and the Zerg too) just spread out across the vastness of space.

after all, they had a Protoss EMPIRE and apparently conquered at least two other species in their history.

which means the full might of the three races has yet to be centralized.

Also! I think the because of what you brought up, I believe many Dark templar would become more agitated with the Khalai and many would become bigoted as their Khalai bretrhen.

IE they and the Khalai would keep bringing up the past, would use certain bad actors as examples of "this is why these guys suck" etc..

[ragnarok]

I liked one of the ideas here where it was implied that the protoss are much more numerous than we think (and the Zerg too) just spread out across the vastness of space.

after all, they had a Protoss EMPIRE and apparently conquered at least two other species in their history.

which means the full might of the three races has yet to be centralized.



That's still hard to say, Stratos. Tell me, back in the SC1 days, did you think the Protoss empire was still vast even after Aiur fell?

[GnaReffotsirk]

The Conclave believed they were winning. From that, we could say they never allowed other forces to come and help.

Aldaris' revolt could then mean the DTs are keeping them from doing what they want. They could be trying to contact other protoss, but the matriarch would not allow them. Not directly, but maybe in some way similar to how creepy dudes would try to convince you they're looking for your friends, after they found you unconscious in the woods, in a post-apocalyptic scenario.

Why would Aldaris revolt then, when if they were really free, they could just go if they didn't like what was happening, right?

edit: But then again, artanis would have time to do so while they were looking for the Khalis and Uraj, so...

[ragnarok]

The Conclave believed they were winning. From that, we could say they never allowed other forces to come and help.

Aldaris' revolt could then mean the DTs are keeping them from doing what they want. They could be trying to contact other protoss, but the matriarch would not allow them. Not directly, but maybe in some way similar to how creepy dudes would try to convince you they're looking for your friends, after they found you unconscious in the woods, in a post-apocalyptic scenario.



Because the Khalai still had this sense of superiority over the Dark Templar even after the loss of Aiur. Despite what happened, they still couldn't bring themselves to see that it was the Nerazim who were the key to victory over the Overmind, and saw that the Nerazim's rejection of the Khala as a betrayal.

This was something if you read Shadow of the Xel'Naga, was summed up by Xerana, that the Khalai understand so little, yet command so much. In that sense, they're nothing more than children playing with matches.

[KaiserStratosTygo]

That's still hard to say, Stratos. Tell me, back in the SC1 days, did you think the Protoss empire was still vast even after Aiur fell?

Back then I didn't know it was the protoss Empire, but I still figured it was bigger than just aiur and like two other planets.


"The Conclave believed they were winning. From that, we could say they never allowed other forces to come and help."

Exactly, they had so much hubris that they didn't even bother to reach out.

[GnaReffotsirk]

The Zealot would say, "For the empire" or something like that in-game.

[Nissa]

Shadow of the Xel'Naga is the single worst book I have ever read, and was clearly written by a person who had very little idea of what Starcraft entailed. It doesn't count as a real source of information.

Was pretty hilarious, though.

Anyway, Duran as Overmind is a fun angle, and I kinda like that idea. It would be as though Duran was helping Kerrigan not only to get access to the Zerg for experiments, but to make sure the infant Overmind is destroyed, because this entity no longer represents the Overmind's being.

Granted, the whole idea is a bit kooky, but it could work.

[ragnarok]

Shadow of the Xel'Naga is the single worst book I have ever read, and was clearly written by a person who had very little idea of what Starcraft entailed. It doesn't count as a real source of information.



I still found it useful as a source of info in learning about the energy creatures though.




Exactly, they had so much hubris that they didn't even bother to reach out.

That's their arrogance problem. Zeratul certainly had grounds to tell Aldaris that he was too blind to see the fall ahead of him

[Visions of Khas]

I wonder if one reason the Overmind landed on Aiur was to lure the Templar into a false sense if security. "Oh look, the leader of our foe has taken up residence just over the hill. Hah, this'll be easy!" And all the while, Templar throw themselves into the meat grinder but never gain ground because they refuse vital military intel because of its dubious DT source.

[ragnarok]

I wonder if one reason the Overmind landed on Aiur was to lure the Templar into a false sense if security. "Oh look, the leader of our foe has taken up residence just over the hill. Hah, this'll be easy!" And all the while, Templar throw themselves into the meat grinder but never gain ground because they refuse vital military intel because of its dubious DT source.

That would have to depend on just how much zerg were actually gathered around the Overmind's nesting site, VoK.

As we saw from Eye of the Storm, even after Zeratul killed the two Cerebrates there were still plenty of Zerg defenders next to the Overmind. That being said however, the Q should be this: did the other Cerebrates gather their forces around the Overmind AFTER they saw Zeratul kill the two Cerebrates in Shadow Hunters? Or were those defenders there from the very beginning?

Because if it's the former, then I can see your point, and those zerg forces were only moved there because the Cerebrates realized now that the Khalai finally accepted the Nerazim's help, the Overmind would be vulnerable, and therefore everyone must be gathered into its nesting ground to defend it.

[GnaReffotsirk]

The cerebrate deaths before the final mission allowed them time and chance to get to the Overmind. I'd imagine, if we were watching a film, the executor's forces and Tassadar would be pushing deeper and deeper into kilometers of infested ground, hive clusters and all, as the Zerg reorganize.

It would then open to that dead barren area where at the heart of it all was the Overmind itself. While the executors forces would, by then, have to retreat, Tassadar does what he's left to do, and channel the energies of the dark templar and cut the overmind into pieces.

[ragnarok]

The cerebrate deaths before the final mission allowed them time and chance to get to the Overmind. I'd imagine, if we were watching a film, the executor's forces and Tassadar would be pushing deeper and deeper into kilometers of infested ground, hive clusters and all, as the Zerg reorganize.

It would then open to that dead barren area where at the heart of it all was the Overmind itself. While the executors forces would, by then, have to retreat, Tassadar does what he's left to do, and channel the energies of the dark templar and cut the overmind into pieces.

Yeah but you have to remember in the zerg campaign after Zeratul killed Zasz, while the Overmind was sent into a temporary comatose state, the Cerebrates weren't affected that way. That's why I'm arguing that if the other Cerebrates on Aiur saw what Zeratul did in "Shadow Hunters," it'd make sense for them to gather all their forces right away and send them to the Overmind's nesting grounds.

[GnaReffotsirk]

I see that happening. I think it was a race against time, as soon as they killed those cerebrates. It bought them some time to get into the eye of the storm, where it would have been impossible if they didn't assassinate those cerebrates.

The cerebrates might have been confident the protoss had no ability to kill them, given Fenix' failure previously. The Overmind might have seen the rift between the protoss and the dark templar, and so assumed, after watching fenix fail, that event on char was a one-off.

[ragnarok]

I see that happening. I think it was a race against time, as soon as they killed those cerebrates. It bought them some time to get into the eye of the storm, where it would have been impossible if they didn't assassinate those cerebrates.

The cerebrates might have been confident the protoss had no ability to kill them, given Fenix' failure previously. The Overmind might have seen the rift between the protoss and the dark templar, and so assumed, after watching fenix fail, that event on char was a one-off.

That's true. After all, Zeratul's mind touch with the Overmind should have given him that info. If that's indeed the case, it's possible that the Overmind nesting ground was largely undefended in the early stages of the Protoss campaign.

If that's the case, then perhaps the 2nd Protoss mission "Into the Flames" to kill the Cerebrate with Khalai forces was basically the Conclave giving a "test run." If the attack is successful, then they would launch an assault on the Overmind itself afterwards.

[GnaReffotsirk]

The region around the overmind might be desolate after the explosion as it crashed and imbeded itself. Imagine how vast that area would have been, and the time it would take for anything to get to the overmind.

Around it would be hive clusters and dark swarm so thick, it would be impossible to penetrate. Approaching from high orbit would meet with the same reaction from the surrounding broods.

It might be impossible to even target where the overmind is from high-orbit, given the dark swarm just blocking visual, maybe even radar, or even thermal would not work. The vast distance of that crater and the amount of guess-work you'll have to do and fire rounds upon rounds would make it almost wasteful.

That and having to deal with defenders.

I picture it as a wall of Zerg, a vast distance in-between, and the overmind somewhere inside the vast area where a thick cloud of orange just makes the entire area almost impossible to navigate..

[ragnarok]

The region around the overmind might be desolate after the explosion as it crashed and imbeded itself. Imagine how vast that area would have been, and the time it would take for anything to get to the overmind.

Around it would be hive clusters and dark swarm so thick, it would be impossible to penetrate. Approaching from high orbit would meet with the same reaction from the surrounding broods.

It might be impossible to even target where the overmind is from high-orbit, given the dark swarm just blocking visual, maybe even radar, or even thermal would not work. The vast distance of that crater and the amount of guess-work you'll have to do and fire rounds upon rounds would make it almost wasteful.

That and having to deal with defenders.

I picture it as a wall of Zerg, a vast distance in-between, and the overmind somewhere inside the vast area where a thick cloud of orange just makes the entire area almost impossible to navigate..

I can easily see that. If that's true it'd mean Zeratul killing the Cerebrates in Shadow Hunters sent the swarm into temporary disarry, allowing him, Tassadar, and Raynor's forces to penetrate to the Overmind's nesting grounds.

If that's the case, then what happened in Shadow Hunters would be very similar to what happened in the BW mission "To Chain the Beast." Recall that usage of the Psi Disruptor allowed the UED to send the swarm forces into disarray and thus allowed them to reach the 2nd Overmind's nesting grounds, but the remaining defenses still proved a problem.

[Visions of Khas]

Imagine how vast that area would have been, and the time it would take for anything to get to the overmind.



I wonder if one reason the Overmind landed on Aiur was to lure the Templar into a false sense if security. "Oh look, the leader of our foe has taken up residence just over the hill. Hah, this'll be easy!

I didn't mean "Over the hill" in literal terms, but relative terms. I'd think the Protoss would feel their home field advantage would win them through, and the Overmind wanted to capitalize on this perceived but false advantage.


The cerebrates might have been confident the protoss had no ability to kill them, given Fenix' failure previously. The Overmind might have seen the rift between the protoss and the dark templar, and so assumed, after watching fenix fail, that event on char was a one-off.

He left Kerrigan to fend off the Dark Templar, after all. Her mobility and psychic prowess would make her more suitable to hunt down the Dark Templar than any Cerebrate. After quelling the Dark Templar on Char, she went on to cut off the head of the Nerazim. I think this was part of the Overmind's strategy to defeat the Protoss. Kerrigan's own egotism let Zeratul and the few Dark Templar Warband survivors to escape to Aiur. Even then, the Conclave's pride almost destroyed that one small spark of hope.

Again, I like to think the Overmind somehow subtly influenced the Protoss' psyche by interfacing with Aiur's matrix, exacerbating the Dark Templar-Khalai strife.


Even with everything against them, the Dark Templar Warband barely made it to help. They were like some kind of band of... Rogues. Guess that makes Zeratul Rogue One! :D

[ragnarok]

Again, I like to think the Overmind somehow subtly influenced the Protoss' psyche by interfacing with Aiur's matrix, exacerbating the Dark Templar-Khalai strife.

Ah yes with the whole psychological exploitation. Personally I don't really think he needed to, the Conclave NEVER allowed the Khalai people to forget the dangers of the Nerazim





He left Kerrigan to fend off the Dark Templar, after all. Her mobility and psychic prowess would make her more suitable to hunt down the Dark Templar than any Cerebrate. After quelling the Dark Templar on Char, she went on to cut off the head of the Nerazim. I think this was part of the Overmind's strategy to defeat the Protoss. Kerrigan's own egotism let Zeratul and the few Dark Templar Warband survivors to escape to Aiur. Even then, the Conclave's pride almost destroyed that one small spark of hope.


I'm still unsure about this one. From what people said from the 2006 book Queen of Blades, it seemed that Kerrigan volunteered to stay behind to deal with the dark templar. Of course that book certainly had exaggerated her power levels too much, as no one is supposed to have infinite power. Unfortunately Blizzard only got that part right in WoL when she was defeated on Char.

[GnaReffotsirk]

I like the idea that the Overmind did a sort of 'mind gem' effect on the protoss psyche through the matrix. Agitating them in some way, making them restless, impulsive, even went and almost destroyed themselves, destroying their own Great Forum in the process, while an alien invasion is taking place.

Subtle, but nice.

Lucky for Tassadar, he already has some training in the use of the Dark side of their powers, maybe allowing him to at least be detached, though not fully, from the influence of the external agent that has rooted itself like a virus.

Maybe that's why of all the killing, he just snapped and went "wtf are we killing each other for? Alright, alright, I submit. Executor, you know what to do." Just to calm them all down.

[ragnarok]

I like the idea that the Overmind did a sort of 'mind gem' effect on the protoss psyche through the matrix. Agitating them in some way, making them restless, impulsive, even went and almost destroyed themselves, destroying their own Great Forum in the process, while an alien invasion is taking place.

Subtle, but nice.

Lucky for Tassadar, he already has some training in the use of the Dark side of their powers, maybe allowing him to at least be detached, though not fully, from the influence of the external agent that has rooted itself like a virus.



Yeah but even then it'd still be affecting all the other Khalai Protoss, and if that's the case Tassadar would be alone. Unless you're trying to give Tassadar a power to shield the Overmind's "mind gem" effects from them

[GnaReffotsirk]

It would be very subtle. Has to do with "purity of essence". It's like when you're just about to get that hint that you have a fever. It's very subtle but makes you a bit edgy, if not ever so slightly.

[ragnarok]

It would be very subtle. Has to do with "purity of essence". It's like when you're just about to get that hint that you have a fever. It's very subtle but makes you a bit edgy, if not ever so slightly.

Then I want to hear your details on how it relates to the purity of essence first.

[GnaReffotsirk]

As I said before, purity of essence is evidenced by unity of purpose and motivation from a subconscious level. It's like being driven to fulfill an emergent purpose of the whole as the whole progress day by day.

Since the Xel'Naga had designs for the protoss and zerg, in their attempt to create a race pure in essence and form, where the Zerg overmind was their cause for celebration, with respect to purity of essence, it would not be far fetched to assume that inorder to assimilate the protoss, who once had purity of essence, the Overmind would have to assimilate their minds as well. Take control of them at least.

edit:

To add, we could also speculate that if the above is true, then the Overmind imbedding itself unto aiur would be a kind of end point for the experiment. The Overmind would be in the spot the Xel'Naga could control and watch, while it shows them what they've created.

[ragnarok]

As I said before, purity of essence is evidenced by unity of purpose and motivation from a subconscious level. It's like being driven to fulfill an emergent purpose of the whole as the whole progress day by day.

Since the Xel'Naga had designs for the protoss and zerg, in their attempt to create a race pure in essence and form, where the Zerg overmind was their cause for celebration, with respect to purity of essence, it would not be far fetched to assume that inorder to assimilate the protoss, who once had purity of essence, the Overmind would have to assimilate their minds as well. Take control of them at least.

That I can see. But one major problem is that we never got to learn just how far the Overmind got in his progress with the Khaydarin crystals before Tassadar killed him. Well before SC2 was out, many fans had theorized if Duran would have tried to continue what the Overmind started.

In a way he did, but we didn't expect the hybrid theories we had back then to turn out like this....

[GnaReffotsirk]

They Khaydarins were never explored in detail, only shown that it was a prerequisite for the Overmind to 'manifest' or plant himself on Aiur. We are also shown that it was necessary before the player (a cerebrate) can begin a mission (controlling hive clusters and broods). It was right in front of us during dialogue, like the protoss also has.

The Protoss uses a blue one, probably showing the consciousness of the protoss as blue. While the Zerg has reddish hues, showing the rage and aggression as opposed to the controlled and stoic protoss.

We can take from that to say that in SC universe, Khaydarins are necessary for remote control, so to speak. The Executor could be using his desktop crystal to communicate with the Judicator, even his men on the field. Note that the Executor is on this sort of high-rise building. Maybe the artists implied the protoss executors command their troops from their own living rooms, far away from the field, through telepathy, or some technology (protoss in-game GUI), some interface that translates thoughts into digital information for troops and robots to interpret.

All this to say that both the Zerg and Protoss require Khaydarin for mental powers to be useful. Even High templars use Khaydarin amulets for their powers.

I think Alan Schezar also used Khaydarins to control his own cerebrate.

edit:

And so, when the Overmind deliberately wanted to imbed itself on a Khaydarin rich location, I think it knows what that would grant him. At least for the swarm, maybe not entirely about having an effect on the protoss.

[ragnarok]

I think Alan Schezar also used Khaydarins to control his own cerebrate.

That ALONE didn't control cerebrates. It was said in Enslavers that Schezar had taken refuge in an old Protoss fortress, and the old technologies there, combined with the use of the crystals, allowed him to control the Cerebrate and the zerg forces.


All this to say that both the Zerg and Protoss require Khaydarin for mental powers to be useful. Even High templars use Khaydarin amulets for their powers.

That I'm unsure of, since we just don't know the details of the Overmind's work. Even if he had finished, we don't know what used he'd have made of it other than to get around the Khala so that the Protoss people could be assimilated.

[Turalyon]

I wonder if one reason the Overmind landed on Aiur was to lure the Templar into a false sense if security. "Oh look, the leader of our foe has taken up residence just over the hill. Hah, this'll be easy!" And all the while, Templar throw themselves into the meat grinder but never gain ground because they refuse vital military intel because of its dubious DT source.

It could also just be just simple shock and awe military strategy. We don't really know what else the Overmind read from Zeratul's mind but I figured that not only did it get the location of Aiur, but that it also got info that Aiur was free of Dark Templar and was thus actually safer than being on Char, where the Dark Templar currently were and successfully killing its cerebrates. Also, the Protoss would also be less likely to turn their "planet crackers" on their homeworld, so it kinda defuses another one of the biggest strengths the Protoss have against them.

Had Tassadar and co. failed to do what they did in the The Fall and that the Zerg had actually won in total, everyone would've lauded the Overmind's invasion of Aiur tactic as being brilliant instead of saying it's decision was stupid/weird just because it lost in the actual end. Hindsight bias is a bitch.


I like the idea that the Overmind did a sort of 'mind gem' effect on the protoss psyche through the matrix. Agitating them in some way, making them restless, impulsive, even went and almost destroyed themselves, destroying their own Great Forum in the process, while an alien invasion is taking place.

Subtle, but nice.

Hmmm, not sure if it's really that subtle or just plain gimmickry. The Overmind launching an unexpected surprise attack on their homeworld and forming a beach-head would be enough on its own to cause damage to the Protoss psyche and make them "restless", "impulsive" and "almost destroying themselves". Having it that such reactions from the Protoss were due to it mucking up some mystical psionic field that links the species kinda feels like exploiting it to serve a narrative/plot devicey, like how the Khala is (ab)used by Amon (or should I say, the writers? ;)) in LotV.

[Visions of Khas]

Good ol' fashion psychological warfare. I like the idea that Overmind analyzed Zeratul's psychology, and got the idea for the "shock and awe" strategy, preying on Protoss' fears.

[GnaReffotsirk]

What about the Khaydarin thing? any ideas?

[ragnarok]

What about the Khaydarin thing? any ideas?

Depends on if the Overmind was thinking about anything OTHER than trying to get around the Khala for assimilation.

[Visions of Khas]

Would the Overmind have been able to use the psi matrix to empower its cerebrates? Create warp rifts?

[GnaReffotsirk]

You make a good point VoK, how that this is getting ridiculous. I'm backing down from the Psi Matrix + Overmind thing.

Scratch that page. XD

[ragnarok]

Would the Overmind have been able to use the psi matrix to empower its cerebrates? Create warp rifts?

Actually he probably could if he was given enough time for it all....

[Visions of Khas]

You make a good point VoK, how that this is getting ridiculous. I'm backing down from the Psi Matrix + Overmind thing.

Scratch that page. XD



I didn't intend to shoot down any theories. The new Overmind drew energy from the Khalis; the Cerebrates on Shakuras reincarnated themselves by drawing power from the Temple.

Whatever new breed the Overmind devised from the Protoss would probably be capable of not only drawing power from the psi matrix, but also manipulating it. Just imagine these creatures teleporting themselves across leylines of psionic power, ambushing enemies on distant planets. The Overmind, too, having incorporated their genetics, would be capable of some astounding feats. We already know the Zerg used warp travel. It would be a total game changer for the everybody. So it's for the best the Overmind lost -- everyone would be screwed otherwise.

Which is where Duran's project comes in.

[GnaReffotsirk]

I like it.

[ragnarok]

I didn't intend to shoot down any theories. The new Overmind drew energy from the Khalis; the Cerebrates on Shakuras reincarnated themselves by drawing power from the Temple.

Whatever new breed the Overmind devised from the Protoss would probably be capable of not only drawing power from the psi matrix, but also manipulating it. Just imagine these creatures teleporting themselves across leylines of psionic power, ambushing enemies on distant planets. The Overmind, too, having incorporated their genetics, would be capable of some astounding feats. We already know the Zerg used warp travel. It would be a total game changer for the everybody. So it's for the best the Overmind lost -- everyone would be screwed otherwise.

Which is where Duran's project comes in.

It's hard to say with the drawing power from the Khalis, VoK. All Kerrigan ever said was the 2nd Overmind was in its infancy. Tell me something: how much did you think it knew on what to do, or did it have to listen to the Cerebrates?

[GnaReffotsirk]

So what's the verdict? Can the Overmind use Khaydarins? If so to what extent, and what can it do with it? Does the Overmind require it for certain feats? If so, what are these?

Also, Psychic powers in the Starcraft Universe. Is it linked to a kind of energy field, or is it just as we assume it today, like some magical thing that just happens. And does this energy field have anything to do with Khaydarins?

[ragnarok]

So what's the verdict? Can the Overmind use Khaydarins? If so to what extent, and what can it do with it? Does the Overmind require it for certain feats? If so, what are these?

Also, Psychic powers in the Starcraft Universe. Is it linked to a kind of energy field, or is it just as we assume it today, like some magical thing that just happens. And does this energy field have anything to do with Khaydarins?

We know the Overmind can use it, we just never got to see the end result because Tassadar killed him before his work was finished. Therefore, what the Overmind knows about them is speculation.

Also, even if we completely disregard SC2's lore of Amon being the one doing the uplifting, you can't expect EVERY Xel'Naga to know the exact same thing about the crystals. It's entirely possible that a lot of the Xel'Naga the Overmind assimilated into himself were those who only knew the basic functions. Granted that's unlikely since the Overmind DID say the crystals had powers undreamed of by the Protoss, but it's still a possibility.



Also, Psychic powers in the Starcraft Universe. Is it linked to a kind of energy field, or is it just as we assume it today, like some magical thing that just happens. And does this energy field have anything to do with Khaydarins?

It's not a magical thing, but I'm not sure if it's like an energy field. And it shouldn't have anything to do with the Khaydarins. From what I got via the SC1 lore, it seemed the Protoss had at least some levels of it before the Xel'Naga came to Aiur in the first place.

[GnaReffotsirk]

How do you explain telepathy without a sort of conductivity of some sort happening between two minds? Aside from magic.

[ragnarok]

How do you explain telepathy without a sort of conductivity of some sort happening between two minds? Aside from magic.

I'm not too sure on that part, just some sort of mind touch. But I guess it'd depend on what kind of a field you're trying to get at here. Hopefully not something like the astral plane or anything like that

[GnaReffotsirk]

You have choices of the more metaphysical "Psychic Field", or the common radio wave, or some form of EM wave.

We can choose whether protoss communicate like whales with clicks and blops, sound vibrations that may not be audible to other species, or the more unlikely Psychic Field.

What would be the most likely candidate, considering all forms of abilities protoss can do? Can they really communicate without the use of devices that apparently have Khaydarin crystals as part of the mechanism?

How far can protoss communicate to each other without the use of such devices? How?

And the Khala, having been attributed to be able to contain knowledge and personalities that have since died, sounds more similar to the Psychic Field idea.

How about the Overmind, cerebrates, and overlords, down to their minions and hive clusters? How do ants communicate?

[ragnarok]

How about the Overmind, cerebrates, and overlords, down to their minions and hive clusters?

I thought it was all due to the hive mind matter, but it didn't have anything to do with the crystals. It seemed to me that the Overmind had no clue about them before assimilating the Xel'Naga into himself.

[Turalyon]

How do you explain telepathy without a sort of conductivity of some sort happening between two minds? Aside from magic.

I'm guessing maybe it's a sense modality that relies on some form of quantum entanglement? They are aliens afterall.

Besides, our five senses rely on physical properties that are easily measurable but have notable limitations (eg: speed of transmission, effective distance etc), whereas telepathy seems to either have no such limitations or that it's unclear what limitations it has. Because of this, we might as well call it magical.

[ragnarok]

Besides, our five senses rely on physical properties that are easily measurable but have notable limitations (eg: speed of transmission, effective distance etc), whereas telepathy seems to either have no such limitations or that it's unclear what limitations it has. Because of this, we might as well call it magical.

Pfft, that's your answer to everything. Everything in the lore you just consider it "magical powers" because Blizzard is too lazy to explain

[GnaReffotsirk]

Is Raynor psychic?

[Visions of Khas]

I doubt Raynor's psychic. He's just an average Joe. Though whether you want it in his genetics (recessive) is something else; will his son be psychic, like in the StarCraft II era?


And the Khala, having been attributed to be able to contain knowledge and personalities that have since died, sounds more similar to the Psychic Field idea.

Oooh boy. There's this hypothetical thing called the Akashic Field (google it) that says all knowledge is available, but is written to some psychic substrate. It's one of those stupid new age things, but jumping around wikipedia articles might help form a foundation for something more scientific for the Khala.

[ragnarok]

Is Raynor psychic?

Of course not. If you're wondering how he was able to read people so well, that's due to experience with others.

You have to remember that producing a psychic son does not have to be in the genes. I'm almost positive not every ghost in the program happened because of that.

[Visions of Khas]

Uh, I'm pretty sure psionics is genetic. In fact, the manual states that.

[Nissa]

I back VoK on that one. Definitely genetic.

But back to plot, what would each mission set be based on? Generally each set of missions has some overriding theme-

SC --
Terran: tells the story of Raynor and player's character going from outworld living to exile.
Zerg: shows the Zerg's machinations and struggles on the way to get stronger and defeat the Protoss.
Protoss: shows how Tassadar and the executive work to both reunite Protoss and try to save Aiur.

BW --
Protoss: shows how the 'Toss on Shakuras trying to survive the Zerg and the UED
Terran: shows the actions and mistakes of the UED.
Zerg: shows Kerrigan's rise to Sector dominance.

The fact that every mission set can be reduced to a summary is a good thing to have. It keeps the story on track and enables us to tell a real story. Also, I think it's really important to make sure the player character is doing stuff. Thinking about it, the player character takes a way more active role in SC than in BW. In SC, Terran Player is Raynor's companion, Zerg Player is Kerrigan's guardian cerebrate, and Protoss Player is a military authority whose choices enable Tassadar to succeed. In BW, the player character is just a witness, more or less.

Anyway, so what are some potential storylines for our mission sets? Even if we don't agree, maybe elements of each can appear in the story we like the best.

Here's some of my suggestions:

Zerg: You, a cerebrate outcast hanging out with another cerebrate outcast, have both survived Brood War, and you two have returned to the Sector to keep Kerrigan from becoming her own self-made Overmind. Enter hybrid shenanigans.

Terran: You are Mengsk's right hand man and loyalist, and you two are trying to reconstruct as much of the Dominion as possible, and Mengsk is constantly struggling between getting Korhal back (or securing it) and trying to kill Kerrigan. Maybe some side missions where Mengsk assigns you to work with Raynor to try and assassinate Kerri (or do something else against her).

Protoss: You are a representative of the Khalai 'Toss, trying to ensure that Protoss civilians can live in peace. You work with Artanis, a DT representative, a Templar representative, and a Judicator representative to solve all the vast issues that the Protoss face.

Y'know, in my head I'm kinda thinking of a game completely absent of hybrids. We don't technically need them right now, but we could simply hint that they are coming, whatever that entails.

[ragnarok]

Uh, I'm pretty sure psionics is genetic. In fact, the manual states that.

All right then. I'll re-check the manual.

[Visions of Khas]

One campaign storyline I worked m before SCII involved Duran needing Xel'Naga knowledge. Without the 'Naga around, and the Overmund dead, Duran hunted down those DTs that assassinated -- and thus touched the minds of -- cerebrates.

[ragnarok]

One campaign storyline I worked m before SCII involved Duran needing Xel'Naga knowledge. Without the 'Naga around, and the Overmund dead, Duran hunted down those DTs that assassinated -- and thus touched the minds of -- cerebrates.

You don't have to do that, VoK. SC1 didn't explain Duran's origins. They could have had him be an enemy of the Xel'Naga, fought them for centuries or something, and from there, got the Xel'Naga knowledge.

[GnaReffotsirk]

Duran doesn't have full knowledge, as was implied when he said Kerrigan's entry into the scene has boosted his efforts to creating hybrids. That what I took out from that.

I will have to recheck to see if it holds water. It's possible to take it another way, as I think your implying. That Duran already has knowledge, but somehow is being kept from doing what he seeks to do effectively, or even to proceed, if not for Kerrigan coming into play, or as a factor into the equation.

[ragnarok]

Duran doesn't have full knowledge, as was implied when he said Kerrigan's entry into the scene has boosted his efforts to creating hybrids. That what I took out from that.

I will have to recheck to see if it holds water. It's possible to take it another way, as I think your implying. That Duran already has knowledge, but somehow is being kept from doing what he seeks to do effectively, or even to proceed, if not for Kerrigan coming into play, or as a factor into the equation.

You don't know that, because Duran told Zeratul Kerrigan's integration into the swarm SPED UP his progress. Under that logic, Kerrigan being part of the swarm was never vital for him to know how to create hybrids and whatever goal he had for them, it merely made his job easier.

[KaiserStratosTygo]

The Zealot would say, "For the empire" or something like that in-game.

Oh yeah, that's right.

I didn't pay attention to the quotes that much when I was a young lad (I was like 6 or 7 when I first played SC on the N64)

[ragnarok]

Oh yeah, that's right.

I didn't pay attention to the quotes that much when I was a young lad (I was like 6 or 7 when I first played SC on the N64)

Hmmm, I don't recall that part at all. Mind putting a link please?

[GnaReffotsirk]

My life for Aiur!

Selected Confirming order:

What battle calls?
Issah'tu!
I long for combat!
Gee'hous!
Gau'gurah!
Khas I serve!
Honor guide me!
For Adun!

Repeatedly selected:

En Taro Adun!
All for the Empire.
Doom to all who threaten the homeworld!

http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/StarCraft_unit_quotations

[Visions of Khas]

Hah, I remember the zealot quotes very well. In The Antioch Chronicles II, Auspex Turmalis cut the audio to make a zealot say, "Doom to the Empire!"

[ragnarok]

My life for Aiur!

Selected Confirming order:

What battle calls?
Issah'tu!
I long for combat!
Gee'hous!
Gau'gurah!
Khas I serve!
Honor guide me!
For Adun!

Repeatedly selected:

En Taro Adun!
All for the Empire.
Doom to all who threaten the homeworld!

http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/StarCraft_unit_quotations

More times than not I always wonder should the repeatedly selected quotes even qualify as canon or not....

[KaiserStratosTygo]

Hmmm, I don't recall that part at all. Mind putting a link please?

If you mean the Zealot quote.

it's the second "pissed" quote.

"ALL FOR THE EMPIRE!"

[ragnarok]

If you mean the Zealot quote.

it's the second "pissed" quote.

"ALL FOR THE EMPIRE!"

Ah, the repeated selection. Now we just need Blizzard trying to justify those things as canon.

[GnaReffotsirk]

What would you say about if the Protoss had colonies outside of the Korpulu sector, Rag?

[ragnarok]

What would you say about if the Protoss had colonies outside of the Korpulu sector, Rag?

Oh that'd be nothing new, but at the same time, based on the SC1 lore alone, we didn't know if the Protoss had the tech for them to travel beyond the sector or not. While most likely true, it wasn't confirmed until SC2 when Zeratul was telling Kerrigan about Zerus.

[GnaReffotsirk]

In sc1, space travel did not seem as easy as sc2.

[ragnarok]

In sc1, space travel did not seem as easy as sc2.

Explain more please, I want to hear what you have to say first.

[Visions of Khas]

Well, for one, the warp drives on the terran super carriers took, what, 40 - 60 years to reach their destination? Even the UED had to use cryo on personnel traveling to the K sector.

[KaiserStratosTygo]

Well, for one, the warp drives on the terran super carriers took, what, 40 - 60 years to reach their destination? Even the UED had to use cryo on personnel traveling to the K sector.

I think it took about half a year for the UED to get to the Koprulu sector.

[ragnarok]

I think it took about half a year for the UED to get to the Koprulu sector.

Where did it say that?

[Turalyon]

Well, for one, the warp drives on the terran super carriers took, what, 40 - 60 years to reach their destination? Even the UED had to use cryo on personnel traveling to the K sector.


I think it took about half a year for the UED to get to the Koprulu sector.

It took "nearly 30 years" (not 40-60) to get to what would eventually be known as the Koprulu sector according to the Terran history in the manual. The ships got lost and were not heading to their intended destination of Gantris VI, which was intended to last only a year. This makes it seem kinda weird if the K-sector is only half-a-year's travel out because if we are not to assume the supercarriers just shot past Gantris VI, it suggests the supercarriers somehow looped around and got closer to Earth when they got lost or that the UED developed much faster ships in the interim.


In sc1, space travel did not seem as easy as sc2.

Keep in mind that in Sc1, the K-sector Terrans didn't have to incorporate interstellar travel since all their initial colonies were actually located in one system. Comparatively, space travel would actually be easier in Sc1 than it is in Sc2 because of the retcon of most planets now actually being in different solar systems.

[ragnarok]

Keep in mind that in Sc1, the K-sector Terrans didn't have to incorporate interstellar travel since all their initial colonies were actually located in one system. Comparatively, space travel would actually be easier in Sc1 than it is in Sc2 because of the retcon of most planets now actually being in different solar systems.

Was it in the manual that said they were all the same system?

[Nissa]

Am I on everyone's ignore list, or is my input that boring? Aren't we trying to create our own campaign, hypothetical at least? In any case, I'd like to know what people think of keeping the hybrids away for another game.

[ragnarok]

Am I on everyone's ignore list, or is my input that boring? Aren't we trying to create our own campaign, hypothetical at least? In any case, I'd like to know what people think of keeping the hybrids away for another game.

You're not. Besides most of what I've said have been ignored also.....

[KaiserStratosTygo]

It took "nearly 30 years" (not 40-60) to get to what would eventually be known as the Koprulu sector according to the Terran history in the manual. The ships got lost and were not heading to their intended destination of Gantris VI, which was intended to last only a year. This makes it seem kinda weird if the K-sector is only half-a-year's travel out because if we are not to assume the supercarriers just shot past Gantris VI, it suggests the supercarriers somehow looped around and got closer to Earth when they got lost or that the UED developed much faster ships in the interim.



Keep in mind that in Sc1, the K-sector Terrans didn't have to incorporate interstellar travel since all their initial colonies were actually located in one system. Comparatively, space travel would actually be easier in Sc1 than it is in Sc2 because of the retcon of most planets now actually being in different solar systems.

I imagine they had different technology by the time the UED supplanted the UPL.


"I'd like to know what people think of keeping the hybrids away for another game."

i'm 100% in favor of that.

[GnaReffotsirk]

nissa, do you have ideas on what the story would be focusing on?

[ragnarok]

I'm curious Stratos, back when you saw the hybrid in Dark Origins for the 1st time, if you didn't think terran tech was vital for creating it, what role did you think terran tech played in Duran's lab there?

[Turalyon]

Was it in the manual that said they were all the same system?

Yep.

"After twenty-eight years of warp travel, the huge ships emerged into real space near the edge of a habitable star system. Some 60,000 light years from the Earth, their engines destroyed and their life-support batteries nearly exhausted, the ships engaged their emergency protocols and plummeted towards the nearest habitable worlds in the system."

[ragnarok]

Yep.

"After twenty-eight years of warp travel, the huge ships emerged into real space near the edge of a habitable star system. Some 60,000 light years from the Earth, their engines destroyed and their life-support batteries nearly exhausted, the ships engaged their emergency protocols and plummeted towards the nearest habitable worlds in the system."

I'll add that as another retcon to the list for SC2 then

[Visions of Khas]

"After twenty-eight years of warp travel, the huge ships emerged into real space near the edge of a habitable star system. Some 60,000 light years from the Earth, their engines destroyed and their life-support batteries nearly exhausted, the ships engaged their emergency protocols and plummeted towards the nearest habitable worlds in the system."

Which would imply lightspeed of approximately 2,143 ly. as a lower end (because maybe the carriers would have to emerge from lightspeed every so often to adjust navigation).

Determining the UED's current warp capability is near impossible. We could say the expeditionary fleet launched the same day the Overmind was killed, and arrived shortly after the beginning of the Protoss BW campaign, a span of four days (IIRC). Perhaps this was the vanguard, and the Captain arrived with the bulk of the fleet some days afterward on Braxis, at the end of the Protoss campaign. We don't know how long the Protoss campaign lasted. However, the use of cryonics could imply a longer time frame for the campaign; or that the UED's ships experience effects of relativity over longer distances, necessitating cryogenics. It's also possible the Fleet set out towards the Koprulu Sector much earlier, and its directives changed en route when the UED proper learned of the Overmind's death.

[Nissa]

nissa, do you have ideas on what the story would be focusing on?

Lol, warp speed, to judge from all these posts about it. Just kidding, the talk here is pretty fascinating.

Anyway, I had mentioned that I think all three mission sets should be about one single concept -- surviving cerebrates trying to do the Overmind's will without him for Zerg, factional disputes for Protoss, and Mengsk getting his stuff together for Terran. I think these are good places to start, but getting them to interrelate isn't quite coming together -- mostly because we don't know how the hybrids will affect everything. But since we're probably okay with not going into the hybrid stuff right now, we can try to make it work.

Mostly I just wanted to know that, if people don't like the basis I created for each mission set, if they have any alternative suggestions.

[GnaReffotsirk]

Time dilation and all the relativity stuff would make things crazy.

Say, Dylar IV would send a distress signal, which will reach Mar Sara in 6 months. Mar Sara prepares a response team, sends it over.

The team experiences traveling time of 2 months, but when the arrive on Dylar IV, a year has passed. Everyone is dead, and going back is not an option.

This summer...

[GnaReffotsirk]

We need a story that packs everything together. Each faction can seem to want to achieve different goals, but they are knowingly or unknowingly leading towards a single point. thematically or otherwise.

Example: True Grit (2010)
Girl wants vengeance, and gold.
Marshal wants gold, but also deal with personal gripes vs villain.
Ranger wants gold, but also justice.
Murderer wants gold, but also escape.
Villain wants gold, and keeps everyone playing a part.

We notice they want different things, and gold, but when you look at it carefully, it is the crimes this Villian creates that they really want to stop. The Villian wants to keep his operation going, and he is causing damage as he goes. Even to his own men. The Marshal gets a bad court day because of this criminal group, the Texan Ranger loses a valued politician/senator. The government is suffering because of this gang.


---------------------------------------

Here's a few questions worth considering:

Story Goal -- What would the characters be working against or for in this story?
example: Mohana -- Spreading of corruption in the world. The goddess wants her heart back to stop corruption; mohanna wants to bring Maui to the island to stop corruption; maui wants to keep his powers and play as the hero of man, but this would keep the corruption going.

Story Consequence -- What would the characters have to deal with as a result of failing to solve the story problem?
Example: Mohanna -- everything they love will die. Goddess will lose the people who she creates for; Maui will lose his powers, and their use, with the loss of his narcissistic supply; Mohanna will lose her people, the island

Story Problem -- what drives the story. The object that's keeping things problematic and out of whack.
Example: Mohanna -- Perception. An erroneous meaning a character derives from facts; Appearances; Fear of the unknown.

Story Solution -- the subject, when dealt with, or addressed, that will resolve the story's problem.
Example: Mohanna -- Actuality. Seeing for yourself; being there as it happenes; going deep until you reach the end; into the heart of darkness; seeing the goddess is absent from her slumber.

Story Symptoms -- as a result of the problem, the characters are facing these things.
Example: Mohanna -- Knowledge as a symptom. Everyone holds a strong belief in something; they hold to a knowledge that may or may not be true.

Story Response -- as a result of the story problem, the characters react, which either compounds the problem, or only deal with the symptoms.
Example Mohanna -- Thought as a response. Mohanna begins to think maybe there's something to going beyond the reef; Grandma tries to make mohanna think about their history as a people, and her heart's calling, etc.

[ragnarok]

Time dilation and all the relativity stuff would make things crazy.

Say, Dylar IV would send a distress signal, which will reach Mar Sara in 6 months. Mar Sara prepares a response team, sends it over.

The team experiences traveling time of 2 months, but when the arrive on Dylar IV, a year has passed. Everyone is dead, and going back is not an option.

This summer...

Is that the concept you have planned for this summer?

[GnaReffotsirk]

I'm actually trying to absorb the Denmark-Migration issue. I see this could play a strong influence when developing Shakuras - Aiur Refugee subject.

[ragnarok]

I'm actually trying to absorb the Denmark-Migration issue. I see this could play a strong influence when developing Shakuras - Aiur Refugee subject.

Go on, want to hear more.

[Turalyon]

However, the use of cryonics could imply a longer time frame for the campaign; or that the UED's ships experience effects of relativity over longer distances, necessitating cryogenics.

It could also be because no-one would want to be staying conscious for the most part of a decade or so whilst being stuck on the same damn ship the whole time. Hands up on who wants to get old and crazy by the time we get to the K sector? ;)


Time dilation and all the relativity stuff would make things crazy.

Relativity only affects travel up to light speed. "Faster than light" and "warp travel" is the sci-fi work around to this issue.

[GnaReffotsirk]

really? so if i travel at half the speed of light, my time frame would still be equal to someone standing still?

edit: sorry misread your post.

[Visions of Khas]

It could also be because no-one would want to be staying conscious for the most part of a decade or so whilst being stuck on the same damn ship the whole time. Hands up on who wants to get old and crazy by the time we get to the K sector?

That's... kinda what I was saying. :rolleyes:

And it would go a long way to explaining why Mengsk and Raynor and others look way older than their biological age. Of course, it could also be explained by stress and space radiation and low-quality healthcare.

Galactic healthcare for all!

[Turalyon]

It's kinda weird that cryogenics is used at all though since if the UED force left Earth around the same time the Overmind was killed and FTL/warp travel can negate the effects of relativity, the UED really did spend only a few days travelling to the K sector.

[ragnarok]

And it would go a long way to explaining why Mengsk and Raynor and others look way older than their biological age. Of course, it could also be explained by stress and space radiation and low-quality healthcare.



Actually I felt Raynor looked younger than he should have been in the epilogue's last cutscene. Remember, by 2508 he's supposed to be 38 years old, yet he looked only in his early 30s.

[Gradius]

Actually I felt Raynor looked younger than he should have been in the epilogue's last cutscene. Remember, by 2508 he's supposed to be 38 years old, yet he looked only in his early 30s.
I thought he looks 40-45.

[Visions of Khas]

Would it be possible to calculate the time dilation experienced on the UED ships? It looks like there are a few sites with relativistic calculators but my phone doesn't like them.

[ragnarok]

I thought he looks 40-45.

Well I guess it varies from people to people.

[Nissa]

We need a story that packs everything together. Each faction can seem to want to achieve different goals, but they are knowingly or unknowingly leading towards a single point. thematically or otherwise.

I kinda disagree. If we start with their individual motivations, then coming to a specific point will be easier. Likewise, having a single point may have a very negative impact on the story. For example, original SC didn't really have a specific point everything was going towards. It was really just explaining the what the deal is with each race, and how they're reacting to Zerg invasion. Which is sort of a specific point, but it's a vague one.

In short, what separates SC from SC2 (among other things), is that it doesn't need a culmination. SC realized that allowing everyone to have such diverse motivations makes the world bigger, while narrowing it down to one focus (ie, making all three games hinge on Kerrigan's fate, making each game focus on only one protagonist) makes the world feel smaller. Any main theme we have should be a very vague thing that is defined more by the characters, rather than the characters being decided by the main point.

[Visions of Khas]

I kinda agree with Nissa.

But in WoL, there were a lot of people wanting different things, and the story meandered here and there like in Rebel Yell. But how is it that the divergences in WoL felt like a cop out, while it seemed natural and organic in Rebel Yell?

[GnaReffotsirk]

I thought SC 1 was about the Zerg invasion, and the Overmind's quest to become perfect. Everything started with that, and ended when the premise was completely dealt with.

Arcturus's rise to power would not be there if the Zerg did not attack. Raynor's plight would not occur if the Zerg did not attack; Kerrigan would not have died; The protoss would not have mingled with the DT's, and terran; etc.

The inciting incident was the Zerg invasion, and the protoss response. Everything was at play, though it was only mentioned in the background. We later learn, during the Zerg campaign, that it was not random chance the overmind attacked the Terrans, but the overmind found a weapon to help it in it's fight against the protoss.

[ragnarok]

The inciting incident was the Zerg invasion, and the protoss response. Everything was at play, though it was only mentioned in the background. We later learn, during the Zerg campaign, that it was not random chance the overmind attacked the Terrans, but the overmind found a weapon to help it in it's fight against the protoss.

Yes this is something the Overmind was more FORCED to do when he discovered assimilation Protoss psionics wasn't possible because the Khala prevented that, so he had to look for another species with psionics and hopefully reduce the gap

[KaiserStratosTygo]

I'm curious Stratos, back when you saw the hybrid in Dark Origins for the 1st time, if you didn't think terran tech was vital for creating it, what role did you think terran tech played in Duran's lab there?

I think it might have helped a bit, but imagine the Protoss or Zerg didn't have the type of infrastructure needed for him to do certain tasks.

[ragnarok]

I think it might have helped a bit, but imagine the Protoss or Zerg didn't have the type of infrastructure needed for him to do certain tasks.

I see. For me back then the terran tech was to help Duran make a makeshift hybrid army to keep everyone else busy while the REAL hybrid army awaits its awakening.

[Turalyon]

But in WoL, there were a lot of people wanting different things, and the story meandered here and there like in Rebel Yell. But how is it that the divergences in WoL felt like a cop out, while it seemed natural and organic in Rebel Yell?

The story of Rebel Yell meandered? Seemed like there was progression from one mission to the next for me.

WoL "meandered" because all the missions were disconnected/unrelated to each other and that there were too many missions (Blizz noted this and made fewer missions for HotS which actually flowed better narratively as a result). They didn't feel like they progressed to the eventual climax of the Char assault - it just seemed to just occur after doing enough missions. I remember at the time being confused when the Char arc began because I felt the narrative was actually and finally starting! Then I realised I had done a lot of missions and went "hmph, I guess it's ending now....?"

The numerous characters in WoL were kinda hollow because they seemed like were only there for one reason or another: either for flavour/background/points of interest or to serve as mission givers. Out of all the characters aboard the Hyperion aside from Raynor, Tychus is really the only important one in terms of WoL's entire narrative. Even then, he kinda felt short-changed in the end since we don't fully understand his motivations for some of the things he does and doesn't do.

Rebel Yell only had 3 main characters but their motivations were tied into what they were doing in that campaign/ "came out" as a result of the events they were taking part in. This both gives insight into the characters and gave the narrative at large, momentum.


I thought SC 1 was about the Zerg invasion, and the Overmind's quest to become perfect. Everything started with that, and ended when the premise was completely dealt with.

You're not exactly wrong here but it seems kinda reductionist to me. I'd like to think that any story that features a major antagonist as being more than just about the conceit of the antagonism/ antagonist. Sc2's story is so thin however, that it seems to be nothing more than exactly this. For me, Sc1 is about the 3 races, how each race interacts within themselves and/or with each other race and exploring the consequences of such interaction.

[ragnarok]

You're not exactly wrong here but it seems kinda reductionist to me. I'd like to think that any story that features a major antagonist as being more than just about the conceit of the antagonism/ antagonist. Sc2's story is so thin however, that it seems to be nothing more than exactly this. For me, Sc1 is about the 3 races, how each race interacts within themselves and/or with each other race and exploring the consequences of such interaction.

Not thin, just that it was too narrow-minded when you concentrate on one person for each race, which makes it seem like no one else ever did anything

[GnaReffotsirk]

i wasnt clear on what i just said. im sorry. its my brain, sometimes i cant find the right words or phrase.

anyway, what i was referring to was with regards to developing plot. the overmind was the one who upset the status quou, and was trying to achieve the story goal.

The terran throughline focuses on mengsks efforts to rise to power and gather the terrans to fight against aliens.

the zerg throughline is about the overmind trying to setup his broods for their final assault to start the final confrontation.

the protoss throughline is about tassadar's quest to convince the conclave to follow his plan to stop the overmind from completing his goal.

everyone wants something, but they are all centered on a single story goal. their concerns are overshadowed by this one thing, which in this case was the overmind trying to assimilate everyone, but needs to assimilate the protoss first.

[ragnarok]

i wasnt clear on what i just said. im sorry. its my brain, sometimes i cant find the right words or phrase.

anyway, what i was referring to was with regards to developing plot. the overmind was the one who upset the status quou, and was trying to achieve the story goal.

The terran throughline focuses on mengsks efforts to rise to power and gather the terrans to fight against aliens.

the zerg throughline is about the overmind trying to setup his broods for their final assault to start the final confrontation.

the protoss throughline is about tassadar's quest to convince the conclave to follow his plan to stop the overmind from completing his goal.

everyone wants something, but they are all centered on a single story goal. their concerns are overshadowed by this one thing, which in this case was the overmind trying to assimilate everyone, but needs to assimilate the protoss first.

True, though I really don't think this was explained much in the terran campaign. Look at it this way: if you never read the SC1 manual, could you understand what the swarm's intents were from the terran campaign ONLY?

[Turalyon]

Not thin

The entirety of the story in Sc2 was thin (it's nothing more than the 3 races preparing to fight some great existential threat) and spread even thinner by making it as a trilogy. Sc2 spends two-thirds of its plot about fighting a big bad guy that isn't supposed to be that big nor bad (nor that important in the grand scheme of things), only to have the actual climactic battle with the actual biggest and baddest guy yet happen only in the back-end of the last third. That LotV is and can be experienced standalone just fine without knowledge of the previous two is also testament to how thin the story is.


everyone wants something, but they are all centered on a single story goal. their concerns are overshadowed by this one thing, which in this case was the overmind trying to assimilate everyone, but needs to assimilate the protoss first.

I somewhat disagree. The Zerg are indeed important for the specific plotting of Sc1 to develop since it's the conceit/catalyst for much of the action but I don't think that the Zerg are the sole reason for the behaviours that we see. Mengsk's megalomania for example would still be present with or without the Zerg. It's just that in Sc1, the story uses the Zerg as a means to express it. The Zerg are lens in which to gain insight about how this specific character would normally operate on a general level. Likewise, the Tassadar/Aldaris conflict can be seen to still occur without the Zerg since their respective ideology and viewpoints are rooted and developed within the charactiers and their collective racial history. Like I said, Sc1 is about the interactions within each race just as well as it is about the interactions with each other race.

[GnaReffotsirk]

I see your point. Still none of these interactions would be meaningful if the major premise was not there. Yes, their characters are ofcourse there, and the potential for conflict is there, but my point stands, that in order to make a meaningful, or at least coherent story, and overarching plot must exist.

This is what I wanted for us to discuss and try to narrow down later, after we decide on the current status quo after BW. However, as it stands, neither of us can come up with one story point we could agree upon.

Maybe it's true, a group could never come up with a story? I wish you guys can prove me wrong.

Nissa? Any creative work you've done there?

If not, maybe someone could rise up to the task, and mine the 23 pages we've already spent on, and list all the possible starting points we can consider.

edit: I apologize for my frustration. As it is, I would expect this to continue as it already does, and 20 pages more would be filled with the same things. Instead of building, I notice we all take turns turning each other's idea down.

I have yet to review the pages for how each one responds to ideas, in hopes of finding what the problem is, and why we cannot come up with a single story point we could all agree upon.

If interested, it's simple: How, where, and what are the current standings of the three races after BW? The characters, what are they doing? What are their current concerns, before we introduce an inciting incident (which we will discuss later)?

[Turalyon]

I see your point. Still none of these interactions would be meaningful if the major premise was not there. Yes, their characters are ofcourse there, and the potential for conflict is there, but my point stands, that in order to make a meaningful, or at least coherent story, and overarching plot must exist.

You're not exactly seeing my point though. You're focusing on one particular aspect and conflating it as the be-all, end-all. I'm saying it's not one factor but multiple things tied together. For example, if we hypothetically isolate the Rebel Yell and The Fall chapters as separate individual stories and replace all references to the Zerg as some other arbitrary antagonist, the interactions between the characters in each of those stories alone would still be meaningful and coherent.


This is what I wanted for us to discuss and try to narrow down later, after we decide on the current status quo after BW. However, as it stands, neither of us can come up with one story point we could agree upon.

We're (well, I am at any rate) just throwing out ideas and counter-ideas for consideration. You're the one that wants to write it so you have the final say. Don't look to others for agreement of your ideas since that will just muddy things that you want to put forward. Your initial ideas were good.


If interested, it's simple: How, where, and what are the current standings of the three races after BW? The characters, what are they doing? What are their current concerns, before we introduce an inciting incident (which we will discuss later)?

I think the immediate concerns for the races are their own internal intrigues: Terrans are divided after the UED smashed up the Dominion and Mengsk is in no shape to take the reigns or be the representative for the majority of the Terrans at the present time. The Zerg sort of need some agency without Kerrigan and Kerrigan needs to be less overpowering, so you could just have parts of the Zerg evolving away and start rebelling despite Kerrigan and/or give her limitations on her power of the Zerg (you've started doing that already). The Protoss are still struggling with getting along with each other - the Nerazim are resentful of the Khalai for bringing their war to Shakuras because the Nerazim numbers and society are smaller, they've lost their leader and are now expected to still assist those that vilified them in the past when they really just want them to go away. The Khalai want to work towards retaking Aiur and become more abrasive with the Nerazim because they think they're not wanting and needing their help to do this, but act as if they do.

The biggest immediate threat and common goal to all (including the Zerg themselves) is still the Zerg. The Terrans and Protoss still fear what they might do and work to either protect themselves or to take further action against them. Whilst they're doing this to either mixed success or failure, you could then introduce the major inciting incident for all three to work against (and not necessarily together mind you) in the form of Duran and the Hybrids. The rest is just details.

[GnaReffotsirk]

Okay, I just realized I'm a big loser and hypocrite. I may have derailed things more than anyone else.

I apologize. Something's wrong with me. I'll try to keep my stupidity in check.

Anyway, here are the Zerg stuff I collected from the previous posts. If there's anything missing, please post them.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1sWRap8uaqOEzoDgcS6SiqkrZ7AInrW3NUB8gAu0oMYQ/edit?usp=sharing

It's on google docs..

[Nissa]

I think the immediate concerns for the races are their own internal intrigues: Terrans are divided after the UED smashed up the Dominion and Mengsk is in no shape to take the reigns or be the representative for the majority of the Terrans at the present time. The Zerg sort of need some agency without Kerrigan and Kerrigan needs to be less overpowering, so you could just have parts of the Zerg evolving away and start rebelling despite Kerrigan and/or give her limitations on her power of the Zerg (you've started doing that already). The Protoss are still struggling with getting along with each other - the Nerazim are resentful of the Khalai for bringing their war to Shakuras because the Nerazim numbers and society are smaller, they've lost their leader and are now expected to still assist those that vilified them in the past when they really just want them to go away. The Khalai want to work towards retaking Aiur and become more abrasive with the Nerazim because they think they're not wanting and needing their help to do this, but act as if they do.

The biggest immediate threat and common goal to all (including the Zerg themselves) is still the Zerg. The Terrans and Protoss still fear what they might do and work to either protect themselves or to take further action against them. Whilst they're doing this to either mixed success or failure, you could then introduce the major inciting incident for all three to work against (and not necessarily together mind you) in the form of Duran and the Hybrids. The rest is just details.

I feel that this is the crux of where Starcraft is right now. As much as us fans, at the end of BW, wanted things to go forward and reveal the truth about the hybrids and Duran, this is inappropriate for where the characters are. Mengsk has been battered, the Protoss are focusing on survival, and Kerrigan has just barely repelled three fleets from ending her quest for power. Everyone needs a break. Everyone.

In other words, it's kind of okay for us to have less interracial conflict. Factional, inter-ethnic conflict is the order of the day. It's also good to have some small scale stuff to really flesh out the things we weren't told about these cultures previously. Things have slowed down enough to do that.

So my suggestion is very minimal race interaction. Sure, Zerg are always going to putter around and hold resources, Protoss and Terrans are going to have border issues, space pirates are a thing, but let's focus really on how faction react with each other.

Cool, there's a link. Thanks, Gna

[ragnarok]

Okay, I just realized I'm a big loser and hypocrite. I may have derailed things more than anyone else.

I apologize. Something's wrong with me. I'll try to keep my stupidity in check.

Anyway, here are the Zerg stuff I collected from the previous posts. If there's anything missing, please post them.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1sWRap8uaqOEzoDgcS6SiqkrZ7AInrW3NUB8gAu0oMYQ/edit?usp=sharing

It's on google docs..

I'm still unsure of the infested agents betraying Kerrigan. You'd think she'd be smart enough (after all the past betrayals) to come up with those who would remain loyal to her.

[GnaReffotsirk]

There are inputs there that I don't subscribe to as well. I think you can post comments on the doc.

Nissa, we could do mini campaigns for that. A series of sorts, small chunks of stories exploring characters and relationships. Like starwars rebels. It doesn't have an overarching plot, just a vague general direction, a set time frame on which they occur, locations, the world, and big name characters.

I don't know, Tura, if this is how you mean. Is it?

Spartacus Blood and Sand, series, though it has plot, focuses more on characters.

[Turalyon]

It doesn't have an overarching plot, just a vague general direction, a set time frame on which they occur, locations, the world, and big name characters.

I don't know, Tura, if this is how you mean. Is it?

Not quite. Part of what I said about it being multiple things tied together and not one single major factor is that it goes both ways - each factor is still important in and of itself but also informs how it would affect the greater picture. Eg: With Mengsk's actions in Rebel Yell, it can be seen as both serving the internal racial/factional conflict but also the outer/larger conflict of the Zerg invasion at the same time.

In this "after BW" case, the factional disputes within each species are a microcosm for the larger goal in dealing with the biggest and immediate current threat that is still the Zerg even though it may not be obviously apparent at first. However, factoring in Duran and the Hybrids will be trickier since it's a potentially disruptive and restrictive element because they're supposed to be so powerful such that each race shouldn't be able to handle them alone and predisposes the narrative to a team-up of the races to combat it. One way to incorporate it and complicate things further (hopefully in a good way), is to have each side react differently to the Hybrids (whether they temporarily team-up with them for some reason, choose to resist them stubbornly in their own way or whatever) and use that as more fuel for conflict between the three core species.

[GnaReffotsirk]

Apologies. Your meaning eludes grasp, absent proper example. Perhaps further discussion will bring knowledge to light.

[ragnarok]

There are inputs there that I don't subscribe to as well. I think you can post comments on the doc.



Not from what I saw, it's view only.

[GnaReffotsirk]

Turn thought from perceived slight. The gods would have me spread cheek only to ram c*ck in *ss.

But, there may yet lie fortune in such lack of foresight on my apart.

Let us turn to task, and voice thought here on this very thread. Regarding matters of choice and disagreement, with proper reason of course.

Google docs prove far removed from reach. I would have noble effort etched for all to see without distraction.

I remove myself presently, only to return with haste. Pressing matters require immediate attention.

[ragnarok]

We'll be waiting your return, GNA

[Visions of Khas]

Sounds like someone's reading Shakespear.

[KaiserStratosTygo]

I made a quick map based on both my original ideas and some of the ones we've discussed here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5WtMsDUuEM

[ragnarok]

I made a quick map based on both my original ideas and some of the ones we've discussed here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5WtMsDUuEM

How long did it take for you to make it?

[Turalyon]

Turn thought from perceived slight. The gods would have me spread cheek only to ram c*ck in *ss.

Ha, the spirit of Batiatus lives on!

[ragnarok]

Hey GNA, I tried your google doc again, signed into google and still can't comment on it, it still says view....

[GnaReffotsirk]

Rag, maybe posting your disagreements here would be more useful. Say for example like this:

------------

I disagree on:

(C) because it sounds out of character. I don't like the Stukov faction recently introduced to be part of the main story.
(F) can be tweaked instead to a group led by scientists trying to discover a bio-weapon through infested terrans.

--------------

[KaiserStratosTygo]

How long did it take for you to make it?

Bout an hour an a half.

[Nissa]

Okay, so here we go. I left some short notes in the file, but the long version is here.

b-3) No. This isn't Mengsk's possible motivation, it's the Overmind's. Mengsk was never a long term thinker, and all of his actions have been very short-sighted and shallow -- using psi emitters, abandoning a psychic when he knew the Zerg were looking for them, accepting Kerri's help to retake Korhal, etc. Dude is simply not capable of using Kerrigan to this end.

Actually, if you wanted to say that this is what the Overmind wants, it suddenly makes sense.

C) No, infested Terrans are already part of the swarm.

D) As true as this would have been even as early as her infestation, Kerrigan needs people. As a human, she was a psychic agent enlisted to take on specific targets and small operations with massive amounts of detail. She's an operative, not a strategist. She's going to need to trust, force alliance from, or infest the people she needs to do things for her. Maybe even some insane people want to become infested because they think it will make them powerful/take away the pain in their lives. Zerg cultists, maybe.

E) Absolutely not. The idea of the khaydarins being a psi matrix goes against the manual, which states that the psychic link of the Protoss is genetically their own. It's much simpler that the Overmind just wanted to use the khaydarins to make the Protoss vulnerable to Zerg infestation. Way simpler. Let's go that route, and have Kerrigan consider the option, though she might consider against it, depending on how we feel about that angle.

F) Lol, I totally thought of Zerg cultists before reading this. Awesome.

G) "Evolving" is hands-off genetic change over time. Therefore it isn't evolution when the Zerg do it. Nitpick of the day. Anyway, I don't think it should be factional with the Zerg. The Zerg, being mindless, are basically the tools of anyone with the psi capacity to mess with them. Maybe we should try having the Protoss control some. Like, there's faction 1, Kerrigan. Faction 2 are the cerebrates who want to make the Overmind's will come back (one of the cerebrates holds the memory of the Zerg). Faction 3, which is of unknown motivation for a long time, is being controlled by a Protoss faction.

This Protoss faction could be any number of things:
- Judicator psychics trying to become useful in contemporary Protoss life, now that they are not the leadership caste.
- Ulrezaj messing things up.
- The Tal'darim, absent of all their SC2 connotations and finally a real, unified idea.
- Protoss scientists trying to solve the mysteries of infestation and how to reverse it.

H) I've basically already stated why I'm iffy on this, but there's some interesting ideas in this section.

I) No, the Overmind always seems to have had a unified plan, and that hinges purely on the Protoss. The manual states how they found the Protoss, and any sequel we make to SC needs to preserve what it originally was and felt like, not become another version of fanfiction retconning like SC2 was. Besides, this doesn't feel terribly interesting. It doesn't make me think of interesting plots for the Zerg.

J) Cute, but again, no story potential.

K) No. The Zerg are mindless animals, slaves to the whims of their leaders. Kerrigan might let some of them develop strains based on adaptations to environments, but the Zerg don't have the capacity to need a dictatorship. Dictatorships are for minds that need to be manipulated, not minds that are under the psychic power and can just be directly controlled.

N) NOOOOO!!! Broodmothers are stupid! Whyyyyyyyyyyy......

First of all, nothing Zerg should be called "mother." Secondly, we don't want to remind people of SC2. If Kerrigan creates her own demi-authorities (which she, being distrustful, is less likely to do), they need to be completely different, more under her power, and actually scary.

O) I think you're being too mechanical about it, but yeah, Kerri isn't as powerful as the Overmind.

P) What the heck are you even talking about? Kerrigan's creative enough to do what she did in BW, she's hardly a drone.

Well, I'll do more later. Right now I have to do school stuff.

In other words, a lot of plot potential exists here.

[ragnarok]

Rag, maybe posting your disagreements here would be more useful. Say for example like this:

------------

I disagree on:

(C) because it sounds out of character. I don't like the Stukov faction recently introduced to be part of the main story.
(F) can be tweaked instead to a group led by scientists trying to discover a bio-weapon through infested terrans.

--------------

I hope you know I don't really mind about the Stukov faction in the story. Of course, I never really paid attention too much to the whole SC1 mercenaries and all that with infested Stukov. In fact until HotS I never really expected Blizzard to have intended his revival by Kaloth even be canon.

[KaiserStratosTygo]

Eh, i'm good with factional zerg, because of the fact that Kerrigan is no overmind and has no business somehow being able to control all of them, the Zerg by their very nature should be able to develop over time their own leaders, whether it be new cerebrates or some lower form of that altogether. Blizzard kind of fucked up when it came to BW's story telling especially on that aspect.

[Gradius]

I'm sorry but the Tal'Darim shouldn't exist. If there was really a third protoss faction we'd have heard at least something about them in SC1. They're a retroactive add-on that came out of nowhere, and also redundant since they're basically just edgier dark templar.

[ragnarok]

I'm sorry but the Tal'Darim shouldn't exist. If there was really a third protoss faction we'd have heard at least something about them in SC1. They're a retroactive add-on that came out of nowhere, and also redundant since they're basically just edgier dark templar.

Does this mean you also weren't too pleased to hear about them back in the DT Saga, Gradius?