New StarCraft Comic: "The Keep"

[Visions of Khas]

https://comic.starcraft2.com/issues/starcraft/1/en-us/cover/cover-desktop.jpg (https://comic.starcraft2.com/en-us/nova-the-keep)

Decent artwork and conclusion.

[ragnarok]

Did you read the comic yet?

[Gradius]

Pretty good... Umojan Shadowguards are awesome.

[Robear]

I thought it was odd that they claim it takes place after the Covert Ops missions. It makes no sense for Nova to be dutifully and obediently working under Valerian and accepting memory wipes after she and Riegel went rogue with a whole ship full of classified tech.

I also thought the writing was just okay. Imo there were a few too many times where the author stressed that the the new obstacle was the most advanced, or the most secure, or the brand-newest whatever, it got a little old. And it seems odd that Nova, basically the best Ghost out there, wouldn't have finished off that dude or sensed he was alive.

BUT, I did like the more grounded approach to the art. A lot of the appearance of ships and suits seemed like something out of 1995, like this would be a comic that could have come out at the same time as Super Metroid, like this kind of tech. All those scribbly tech details.

http://i.imgur.com/CH3UF4q.jpg

I liked Nova's decoy space suit, and the enemy ghosts, and loved that she met with Valerian in clothes other than her skintight Hostile Environment Suit. Showing characters in more than one outfit does a lot for my sense of worldbuilding/immersion.

http://i.imgur.com/aik1pyM.png

[ragnarok]

Pretty good... Umojan Shadowguards are awesome.

Now we just need an SC book focusing on them to see the details of what they do.

[TcheQuevara]

This story happens before Nova Covert Ops, Robear.

[Nolanstar]

Personally I love the ships on the landing deck.

[Robear]

This story happens before Nova Covert Ops, Robear.

That makes a lot more sense. I could have sworn that on the Blizzard page for it they had a warning saying "make sure you complete Covert Ops before reading this story!" But if it was ever there, they fixed it. Or maybe I was just imagining things, oops.

[Gradius]

That makes a lot more sense. I could have sworn that on the Blizzard page for it they had a warning saying "make sure you complete Covert Ops before reading this story!" But if it was ever there, they fixed it. Or maybe I was just imagining things, oops.
No they edited it. Even shadowarchon posted that they changed it.

[ragnarok]

Personally I love the ships on the landing deck.

Same here, hoping to see more of them in the future.

[Nissa]

Oh, that was a thing.

Love the art, gotta say. Not so much on the people, but the tech and backgrounds were nice and gritty. I liked the color combinations too. Only trouble is, the story is pretty generic, and so are the themes. It feels really weird when Starcraft has clear-cut morals. Starcraft was never a morality play, and making it seem like one is...odd.

On the other hand, it wasn't offensively bad. Just a bit generic.

[ragnarok]

Oh, that was a thing.

Love the art, gotta say. Not so much on the people, but the tech and backgrounds were nice and gritty. I liked the color combinations too. Only trouble is, the story is pretty generic, and so are the themes. It feels really weird when Starcraft has clear-cut morals. Starcraft was never a morality play, and making it seem like one is...odd.

On the other hand, it wasn't offensively bad. Just a bit generic.

You'd rather have EVERYONE be so completely morally grey? There has to be those that lean towards one side or another, not just stay in the middle.

[KaiserStratosTygo]

That's the biggest weakness in modern "starcraft" is the heroes/villains nonsense.

[ragnarok]

That's the biggest weakness in modern "starcraft" is the heroes/villains nonsense.

Staying in the middle isn't always a good thing, Stratos. You already know that.

[TcheQuevara]

Oh, that was a thing.

Love the art, gotta say. Not so much on the people, but the tech and backgrounds were nice and gritty. I liked the color combinations too. Only trouble is, the story is pretty generic, and so are the themes. It feels really weird when Starcraft has clear-cut morals. Starcraft was never a morality play, and making it seem like one is...odd.

On the other hand, it wasn't offensively bad. Just a bit generic.

It's because it seems everyone is California is influenced by this terrible, terrible mistake (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Writer%27s_Journey:_Mythic_Structure_for_Write rs) in narrative theory.

Now with Metzen gone, maybe we will have less og his gut feeling/common sense/traditional wisdom (which was both innovative and limited) and more of the academic, flawed thinking on how stories work that has made every drama in Hollywood the same.

Or maybe we will have new creators trying out their ideas, because that's what we need: a more diverse cast of "Metzens", a bigger number of them, not streamline industrial production of stories, because that's what Mythic Structure is.

Do you want to know more? Look for "aristotelian drama". We've been through this already literally centuries ago. People arguing their formula was the best way to tell stories. By disobeying it we got Shakespeare, Molière, Brecht, the guys who defined what writing stories for non-literary media could be like until the middle of the 20th century. But Star Wars worked, and worked because its clever structure and use of myth, which is excellent, but now people think using this as a formula will make their stories better, which, as you can see with Nova: The Keep, isn't true at all.

Regardless of the silly morality of it, I liked it and I like that we can have someone solidly trying to be good like Valerian, as long as they don't overdo it.

[Robear]

It feels really weird when Starcraft has clear-cut morals. Starcraft was never a morality play, and making it seem like one is...odd.


You'd rather have EVERYONE be so completely morally grey? There has to be those that lean towards one side or another, not just stay in the middle.


That's the biggest weakness in modern "starcraft" is the heroes/villains nonsense.


Staying in the middle isn't always a good thing, Stratos. You already know that.

It sort of feels like Rag is addressing a version of Kaiser's argument that I'm not sure he's making. There's a difference between every character being morally neutral and the overall narrative taking a morally neutral tone. Like the situation in Brood War where Raynor and Fenix are portrayed as wholly good characters, but they don't win, is different from a situation where all of the characters have no morals and act purely out of self-interest. And I don't know which you're arguing about.

Just speaking for myself here I thought it felt more compelling when there are a whole host of characters who are doing what they think is right, but the different visions don't line up. So like you've got Aldaris and Tassadar and Mengsk and Duke, who all think their approach is the right way.
Of course the game favors Tassadar and Raynor's points of view, but that doesn't mean that Aldaris was evil or anything. Wings of Liberty SORT OF had this kind of situation if you, as Raynor, chose not to help Hanson, where both the characters were morally good. That could have been a great moment if it wasn't so obvious that the moral choice system in that game had no narrative stakes or consequences whatsoever, and whichever you picked Hanson would just be written out of the game, never to be mentioned again, in WoL or the sequels.

For this comic, would it be a better story if Valerian's moral choice to come clean ended up backfiring and made the situation in the Dominion worse, instead of portraying it as just a solid positive? I don't know.
Will it be a boring story if Valerian literally never does anything wrong? Maybe, maybe not. All he's done since his WoL appearance is be helpful and do what the game approves as the right thing all along, with just 'doing the right thing' as his motivation.


I like that we can have someone solidly trying to be good like Valerian, as long as they don't overdo it.

Yeah, it's fine, I might like it more if he just stops being a main character then, he's kind of bland. If he keeps just consistently being put in a rough spot, thinking "I won't follow my father's footsteps," and then doing the right thing and coming out A-OK.

[TheEconomist]

I see dark colors and more realistic atmosphere. At this point, that's all a fan can ask for.

Also, when are these comic creators goes to get with the times and do digital versions? I hate to keep bootleggin' the shit like a scrub.


a more diverse cast of "Metzens", a bigger number of them, not streamline industrial production of stories, because that's what Mythic Structure is.

Yeah, no. I been reading some Military Sci-fi on sale from Amazon for $1.99 including the audiobooks. So far, ALL of them have been better than what I can see Metzen having any direct influence on. These books were written by self-publishing amateurs, probably about my age.

That should say something.

[drakolobo]

I like the type of massacre story that they give, but I did not like the art of classic aspect too much, I would really like the art of the following to be more similar to the visual aspect of the first comic, that comi artanis artanis would have also been favored with This type of art or the application of more detail in the scenes

[TcheQuevara]

Yeah, it's fine, I might like it more if he just stops being a main character then, he's kind of bland. If he keeps just consistently being put in a rough spot, thinking "I won't follow my father's footsteps," and then doing the right thing and coming out A-OK.

Adding to your comment, I like how morals affect Game of Thrones. Good isn't rewarded, evil isn't rewarded. Honor has a price, as it usually does; even cruelty has a price, as it sometime does. And even being perfectly pragmatic isn't always the best choice because medieval societies do rally after brave leaders. And despite for the narrative pushing a little the side of saying pragmatism is the best politics, there are good and evil characters. Even if the good ones are flawed, that's pretty clear that they are noble people.

It isn't "grim dark". True goodness exists, it just has a price.

Valerian, since HotS, is having his cake and eating eat. In DT Saga em WoL he was ambiguous, and that was very cool. In HotS he's still ambiguous but he has this character arc where he "grows up" and reveals how different he is from Arcturus, which should have long term consequences. It's good he keeps in this path, because it's good characters change, even if this mean they become less interesting. You can't be Wolverine forever, eventually your awesome antiheroic personality will become something else.

I just don't like the He-Man like "moral physics" of the narrative. Valerian reaps good consequences from his good intentions. I don't care he wins in the end - it doesn't need to be grim dark. He doesn't need to be corrupted by pragmatism or punished for his purity, but there are no consequences. After Covert Ops' last mission, Kate Lockwell informs the player that simply everything went back to how it was before the crisis. In The Keep Valerian tells the truth about Moebius and has no consequences for that.

And though in SC:Evolution he still acts ambiguously, which attracts disaproval from Horner (which I thought was a good move from Zahn), the timeline in the end of the book states Valerian introduced free elections in the Dominion. I don't know exactly what it means - probably not that his throne is open for contender or even that his position became symbolic. But if it means actual democracy, oh... this is very moralistic and unrealistic for a government composed of many planets that never had democracy before.

TL;DR: Val gets away with his idealism as long as he feels guilty about his father. This can be better than that.





Yeah, no. I been reading some Military Sci-fi on sale from Amazon for $1.99 including the audiobooks. So far, ALL of them have been better than what I can see Metzen having any direct influence on. These books were written by self-publishing amateurs, probably about my age.

.

You might have misunderstood me a bit. I didn't say Metzen is a good writer. I said he didn't necessarily follow the same formula that is very popular em Californian entertainment - hero must do something that is indirectly related to personal stuff, next either his learning with something helps with personal stuff or growing up in personal stuff helps to do something. Metzen's writing had many problems, don't even get me started on that, but I rather have more non-formulaic people like him trying and missing for original things than more schooled writers following formulas that are the "write way" to write stories. The antidote to Metzen's relatively weak and original plots isn't coming up with "strong", market tested ones.

Just to mention, Metzen had his own formula - "people play games to feel powerful" - that affected Blizzard storylines very negatively, too.

Don't know what books you read, but there is a big chance they're not as silly as the Hollywood hero journey formula has got.

[ragnarok]

It sort of feels like Rag is addressing a version of Kaiser's argument that I'm not sure he's making. There's a difference between every character being morally neutral and the overall narrative taking a morally neutral tone. Like the situation in Brood War where Raynor and Fenix are portrayed as wholly good characters, but they don't win, is different from a situation where all of the characters have no morals and act purely out of self-interest. And I don't know which you're arguing about.

Just speaking for myself here I thought it felt more compelling when there are a whole host of characters who are doing what they think is right, but the different visions don't line up. So like you've got Aldaris and Tassadar and Mengsk and Duke, who all think their approach is the right way.
Of course the game favors Tassadar and Raynor's points of view, but that doesn't mean that Aldaris was evil or anything. Wings of Liberty SORT OF had this kind of situation if you, as Raynor, chose not to help Hanson, where both the characters were morally good. That could have been a great moment if it wasn't so obvious that the moral choice system in that game had no narrative stakes or consequences whatsoever, and whichever you picked Hanson would just be written out of the game, never to be mentioned again, in WoL or the sequels.


This was why I hated the terran faction more in SC1 because everyone is too selfish and only cares about their own goals. For all the stupidity the Conclave represented, they at least tried to look out for the Protoss people, as did Tassadar despite going against the Conclave's ways.

In Raynor's case for WoL if you chose to side with Selendis, you can consider that playing it safe. After all, there was no guarantee Hanson's cure would even work. I'll have to check the lore again, but I don't recall cases where terran tech alone has contained the infestation so effectively.

[Nissa]

Tche, I respect your opinion on Valerian. Honestly, his whole entrance in the story felt cheap. We also don't really know why he's a good guy. What makes him different from his dad? Heck, what even makes him a good character? He's just really whatever the plot needs him to be.

[ragnarok]

Tche, I respect your opinion on Valerian. Honestly, his whole entrance in the story felt cheap. We also don't really know why he's a good guy. What makes him different from his dad? Heck, what even makes him a good character? He's just really whatever the plot needs him to be.

This is why we need a sequel to the "I, Mengsk" book, since Valerian didn't play too huge a role there.

[Turalyon]

This was why I hated the terran faction more in SC1 because everyone is too selfish and only cares about their own goals.

Depends on your perspective and bias I suppose. I don't think that the Terran faction are selfish and only care for themselves more than anyone else in Sc1 even though their tenacity and obstinance this brings them to is perhaps the cornerstone of why they are able to keep on surviving in this universe. Really, I could just as easily make the case that all the designated good guys in Sc1 (Raynor and Tassadar) were too selfish and only cares about his own goals, too.

That Sc1 doesn't wholly take one side and shows us consequences of actions is what's so great about it because it lets you decide rather than telling you how you should think. How you see/interpret a characters actions is a reflection of you rather than the writers. That's how good writers show respect to their audience.

[ragnarok]

Depends on your perspective and bias I suppose. I don't think that the Terran faction are selfish and only care for themselves more than anyone else in Sc1 even though their tenacity and obstinance this brings them to is perhaps the cornerstone of why they are able to keep on surviving in this universe. Really, I could just as easily make the case that all the designated good guys in Sc1 (Raynor and Tassadar) were too selfish and only cares about his own goals, too.

That Sc1 doesn't wholly take one side and shows us consequences of actions is what's so great about it because it lets you decide rather than telling you how you should think. How you see/interpret a characters actions is a reflection of you rather than the writers. That's how good writers show respect to their audience.

Yes, and that can also run the risk of other problems like the audience to see that everyone turns out to be greedy and selfish bastards, and there's no decency amongst anyone. If so, you might as well deserve to be exterminated.

[Turalyon]

Yes, and that can also run the risk of other problems like the audience to see that everyone turns out to be greedy and selfish bastards, and there's no decency amongst anyone. If so, you might as well deserve to be exterminated.

Like I said, that's a reflection on the person who views it that way, not on the material itself. One can choose to see decency... or not. It gives the story an illusion of complexity. It's how I can be reasonably contrarian to the popular belief that Raynor, Kerrigan or Tassadar being straight-up "good" people or that Aldaris, Mengsk or the Overmind are straight-up "bad/evil".

[ragnarok]

Like I said, that's a reflection on the person who views it that way, not on the material itself. One can choose to see decency... or not. It gives the story an illusion of complexity. It's how I can be reasonably contrarian to the popular belief that Raynor, Kerrigan or Tassadar being straight-up "good" people or that Aldaris, Mengsk or the Overmind are straight-up "bad/evil".

This is why when I looked at the storylines for the custom campaigns (I too follow Jayborino's channel at times), I absolutely HATED the "Perfect Soldiers" storyline, because it showed that in the end, after all the fighting, you'll just ending BECOMING the very thing you swore to destroy, and that everyone succumbed to power lust and greed and all that.

If we follow that logic, it would only make sense to just let Amon win at the end of LotV since clearly life in the Koprulu sector isn't worth saving as EVERYONE is a greedy bastard.

[KaiserStratosTygo]

This is why when I looked at the storylines for the custom campaigns (I too follow Jayborino's channel at times), I absolutely HATED the "Perfect Soldiers" storyline, because it showed that in the end, after all the fighting, you'll just ending BECOMING the very thing you swore to destroy, and that everyone succumbed to power lust and greed and all that.

If we follow that logic, it would only make sense to just let Amon win at the end of LotV since clearly life in the Koprulu sector isn't worth saving as EVERYONE is a greedy bastard.

That's why I liked that campaign, there were consequences, these consequence-less free pass storylines need to stop.

[ragnarok]

That's why I liked that campaign, there were consequences, these consequence-less free pass storylines need to stop.

Actually this is why it's speculated that the whole ascension process (as explained in the Evolution book) might have also been considered a punishment or something

[Visions of Khas]

Actually this is why it's speculated that the whole ascension process (as explained in the Evolution book) might have also been considered a punishment or something

All the more reason we may need a mission pack or book detailing Amon's ascension and subsequent fall. As a mortal, he wholeheartedly believed the Xel'Naga were grand creatures, and desperately wanted to join their numbers (for either good reasons or ill). Only once he ascended did he realize his mistake.

At the same time, Artanis laments that he and his people were left behind. Maybe it was a mercy for the Protoss to be "left behind" while Kerrigan took the mantle of Xel'Naga. Maybe it's something like that old fairy tale where a man is forever tethered to a boat, unless he's able to find somebody to take his place. (Or, if you prefer the modern version, the Flying Dutchman must always have a captain.)

[ragnarok]

All the more reason we may need a mission pack or book detailing Amon's ascension and subsequent fall. As a mortal, he wholeheartedly believed the Xel'Naga were grand creatures, and desperately wanted to join their numbers (for either good reasons or ill). Only once he ascended did he realize his mistake.

At the same time, Artanis laments that he and his people were left behind. Maybe it was a mercy for the Protoss to be "left behind" while Kerrigan took the mantle of Xel'Naga. Maybe it's something like that old fairy tale where a man is forever tethered to a boat, unless he's able to find somebody to take his place. (Or, if you prefer the modern version, the Flying Dutchman must always have a captain.)

Same here. We need to know once and for all was the ascension a good thing or not.

If Amon's words are to be believed, then if you possess the purity of form or essence, you'll be subjected to the ascension process even against your will.

Either that or maybe many within Amon's species wanted it, but there were those (like Amon himself) who didn't, and didn't get a say in the matter.

[GnaReffotsirk]

I gather Amon is simply an immortal who got tired of the cycle, and wants to end it. Or he just says that but wants to end it, while keeping himself manifest, all beings made in his own image, and under his lordship.

Maybe shepherding the flock isn't his intent. The Xel'Naga are fools, they don't even consider the character of who they transfer power to. Or maybe, in Kerrigan's case there simply isn't no other option at the present but Kerrigan.

Who knows, maybe the cycle isn't complete yet, but Amon sort of forced it into labor, and Oros had no choice but to merge himself with Kerrigan.

[ragnarok]

I gather Amon is simply an immortal who got tired of the cycle, and wants to end it. Or he just says that but wants to end it, while keeping himself manifest, all beings made in his own image, and under his lordship.

Maybe shepherding the flock isn't his intent. The Xel'Naga are fools, they don't even consider the character of who they transfer power to. Or maybe, in Kerrigan's case there simply isn't no other option at the present but Kerrigan.

Who knows, maybe the cycle isn't complete yet, but Amon sort of forced it into labor, and Oros had no choice but to merge himself with Kerrigan.

Amon proved himself little better than an animal who went out of control with rage. If nothing else I had expected him to have better self control and more intellectual. You don't live for billions of years and those are the only qualities you have, surely you're supposed to have learned SOMETHING.

[Nissa]

You know what would be great? If there was some sort of time anomaly. Like, using the artifact, just like Tychus said, created a rift in space/time. A rift that changed the entire SC2 trilogy into an alternate reality, where options merged and vanished at random. An alternate reality that contained all the universe's retcons.

An alternate universe that can be entirely ignored.

[Turalyon]

You know what would be great? If there was some sort of time anomaly. Like, using the artifact, just like Tychus said, created a rift in space/time. A rift that changed the entire SC2 trilogy into an alternate reality, where options merged and vanished at random. An alternate reality that contained all the universe's retcons.

An alternate universe that can be entirely ignored.

Lol. It's already happened if you think about it since Sc2 feels less like a sequel to Sc1 and more of a fanfic anyways.

[Visions of Khas]

Well, we could always explore what happened in the timeline where Kerrigan died, an exceptionally grimdark storyline. Maybe Amon was more cunning in this reality.

I suppose in this timeline Amon never corrupted the Khala, or that detail simply went unmentioned. If the former, that may imply the protoss were less of a threat, perhaps due to inner conflict that was resolved too late. Or it could mean Amon was never reborn on Atrias. Or he was reborn, killed, thrust back into the Void, and returned as Kerrigan mentions in Into The Void. Or, Amon asserted control over the Khala, dispatched the majority of the Protoss, and then released the remaining survivors in a cat-and-mouse game.

Or, or, or...

[ragnarok]

Well, we could always explore what happened in the timeline where Kerrigan died, an exceptionally grimdark storyline. Maybe Amon was more cunning in this reality.




In a way that was already done via the SC Beyond Koprulu campaign.....

[Nissa]

Well, we could always explore what happened in the timeline where Kerrigan died, an exceptionally grimdark storyline. Maybe Amon was more cunning in this reality.

I suppose in this timeline Amon never corrupted the Khala, or that detail simply went unmentioned. If the former, that may imply the protoss were less of a threat, perhaps due to inner conflict that was resolved too late. Or it could mean Amon was never reborn on Atrias. Or he was reborn, killed, thrust back into the Void, and returned as Kerrigan mentions in Into The Void. Or, Amon asserted control over the Khala, dispatched the majority of the Protoss, and then released the remaining survivors in a cat-and-mouse game.

Or, or, or...

Or....there never was an Amon at aaaaalllllllll.....

[Nolanstar]

Or....there never was an Amon at aaaaalllllllll.....

Dark Voice?

[ragnarok]

Or....there never was an Amon at aaaaalllllllll.....

They could keep Amon, Nissa. Remember, Duran told Zeratul he had a master in Dark Origins.

You have to give him SOMETHING....

[Turalyon]

Remember, Duran told Zeratul he had a master in Dark Origins.

Yes, a "master" other than Amon. :D

[ragnarok]

Yes, a "master" other than Amon. :D

Amon is just a name, Tura. All you have to do is change his reputation.

[TheEconomist]

Oh Great Ragnarok!!! Please, I beseech you! Communicate in a way that a lesser being such as I can know what in the fuck you are blathering about.

[GnaReffotsirk]

Amon is like an alien invasion in a walking dead episode.

[ragnarok]

Oh Great Ragnarok!!! Please, I beseech you! Communicate in a way that a lesser being such as I can know what in the fuck you are blathering about.

This coming from a guy who said he put me on ignore.


Amon is like an alien invasion in a walking dead episode.

Explain a bit more please.

[GnaReffotsirk]

I'll say one more riddle. :)

There is a psionic realm, as there is a void realm.

[ragnarok]

I'll say one more riddle. :)

There is a psionic realm, as there is a void realm.

See that one made more sense (remember, not all of us got into The Walking Dead)

[Nissa]

Uh, you don't have to watch Walking Dead to know that an alien invasion is inappropriate on it.

Sounds hilarious, though.

[ragnarok]

Uh, you don't have to watch Walking Dead to know that an alien invasion is inappropriate on it.

Sounds hilarious, though.

Oh I know that.

Overall Gna, if Blizzard hard to keep Amon in, at least they should have made him try to think a little more rationally. Too many villains all lost simply because they couldn't control their emotions.

[GnaReffotsirk]

A Kardashev Type IV civilization would be good for a sci-fi. However, Amon does not belong to any of the categories. What he represents is a spiritual being. He lives in a realm of energy, which creates a problem:

The prologue. How can they even get into that place without being ripped to shreds? Alarak saved Artanis from void energy, and that is only energy that comes from the temple. Them actually going into void energy? I'm lost.

What did they do in the prologue? How? I'm confused.

[Turalyon]

A Kardashev Type IV civilization would be good for a sci-fi. However, Amon does not belong to any of the categories. What he represents is a spiritual being. He lives in a realm of energy, which creates a problem:

The prologue. How can they even get into that place without being ripped to shreds? Alarak saved Artanis from void energy, and that is only energy that comes from the temple. Them actually going into void energy? I'm lost.

What did they do in the prologue? How? I'm confused.

I just figured it was just an alternate dimension/pocket universe/whatever that just happens to have a lot of void energy in it and not that everything in that "realm" was made up of void energy. Meh.

[ragnarok]

A Kardashev Type IV civilization would be good for a sci-fi. However, Amon does not belong to any of the categories. What he represents is a spiritual being. He lives in a realm of energy, which creates a problem:

The prologue. How can they even get into that place without being ripped to shreds? Alarak saved Artanis from void energy, and that is only energy that comes from the temple. Them actually going into void energy? I'm lost.

What did they do in the prologue? How? I'm confused.

It wasn't void energy at all, but rather what Amon corrupted.

[Visions of Khas]

It wasn't void energy at all, but rather what Amon corrupted.

Which makes me wonder about the Dark Templar and Tal'darim. Was all Void energy corrupted by Amon, and Dark templar only skim off small volumes of it to use? Or were portions of the Void left uncorrupted, and it was this fragmentary energy the DTs used?

[ragnarok]

Which makes me wonder about the Dark Templar and Tal'darim. Was all Void energy corrupted by Amon, and Dark templar only skim off small volumes of it to use? Or were portions of the Void left uncorrupted, and it was this fragmentary energy the DTs used?

I'm not convinced it was ALL of the Void, Ouros was being hypocritical. If Amon corrupted ALL of the Void, he should have been able to control the Nerazim and the Tal'darim factions as mindless slaves too, since both of them use Void energies.

[drakolobo]

I'm not convinced it was ALL of the Void, Ouros was being hypocritical. If Amon corrupted ALL of the Void, he should have been able to control the Nerazim and the Tal'darim factions as mindless slaves too, since both of them use Void energies.

Because it does not work in the same way as the khala that uses the connection, in the lens of the void it is observed that whenever a dark templar uses the energies of void he is fighting against a voracious entity similar to taming a beast through discipline, amon Was there threatening, perhaps now that amon has disappeared this aggressive behavior of the void also

[Gradius]

Funny in hindsight that Aldaris called the dark templars energy profane and its usage as "most grievous of all". Guess he was right again.

[TheEconomist]

You know, I never (purposefully) thought of that. Could it be that the series has been retconned so hard that it's come full circle to vindicate Aldaris? That's probably the only retconning that will actually make me think more deeply than previously in my next SC play through.

[ragnarok]

Funny in hindsight that Aldaris called the dark templars energy profane and its usage as "most grievous of all". Guess he was right again.

You don't know that. It was due to Amon's corruption, and it wasn't all the Void. That's why I hope future lore would explain the Void energy could be used for better purposes.

[Nissa]

You know, I never (purposefully) thought of that. Could it be that the series has been retconned so hard that it's come full circle to vindicate Aldaris? That's probably the only retconning that will actually make me think more deeply than previously in my next SC play through.

Ha, another reason to love Aldy. It's pretty funny how many people have started liking him better since SC2 came out. I used to do my SC character analysies, and he's gotten far less hate than before.

[ragnarok]

Ha, another reason to love Aldy. It's pretty funny how many people have started liking him better since SC2 came out. I used to do my SC character analysies, and he's gotten far less hate than before.

The guy ultimately learned, but the Conclave he represented still remained a problem, and people still associate him to that.

[GnaReffotsirk]

I think that's what Gradius is hinting at. Think about it, you wonder why the Conclave considered it evil to associate with dark templars. There is a reason why they try, as much as possible, to have their people, especially high templars, not have anything to do with them.

The conclave considers the ways of the Dark Templars to be somewhat evil. When Tassadar learned to use the dark templar energies, he has become a danger.

Now I know most people think this to only be a cultural thing, and Tassadar seem to blame the conclave's exclusion of the Dark templar on some pride. But when you look at it further back, there was a potential for disaster when the DTs where involved, especially pertaining to the use of their psionic abilities.

[ragnarok]

I think that's what Gradius is hinting at. Think about it, you wonder why the Conclave considered it evil to associate with dark templars. There is a reason why they try, as much as possible, to have their people, especially high templars, not have anything to do with them.

The conclave considers the ways of the Dark Templars to be somewhat evil. When Tassadar learned to use the dark templar energies, he has become a danger.

Now I know most people think this to only be a cultural thing, and Tassadar seem to blame the conclave's exclusion of the Dark templar on some pride. But when you look at it further back, there was a potential for disaster when the DTs where involved, especially pertaining to the use of their psionic abilities.

Yes, the Conclave's fear wasn't groundless. Without the Khala, the Dark Templar couldn't control the psionic storms. We all knew they eventually did learn how to control it even without the Khala later on, but that certainly wasn't the case back in 1500 A.D.

Thus the Conclave felt that if the Dark Templar kept trying this, they could end up killing Khalai Protoss without even knowing it. So to want them removed from the picture certainly had its reasoning.

[Turalyon]

Ha, another reason to love Aldy. It's pretty funny how many people have started liking him better since SC2 came out. I used to do my SC character analysies, and he's gotten far less hate than before.

Oh, everyone's just copying me now is all. :p

I've loved Aldaris right from the start. He's my favourite Protoss character in Sc1 (I never fawned over overrated Tassadar like most Protoss-lovers do :p) and that's not just because he's voiced by Paul Eiding either. He, like Mengsk and the Overmind, are the most complex characters (and therefore most difficult to "like" in the traditional sense) in Sc1.

[ragnarok]

I've loved Aldaris right from the start. He's my favourite Protoss character in Sc1 (I never fawned over overrated Tassadar like most Protoss-lovers do :p) and that's not just because he's voiced by Paul Eiding either. He, like Mengsk and the Overmind, are the most complex characters (and therefore most difficult to "like" in the traditional sense) in Sc1.

Interesting. And here I thought you only did after the breakdown in the SC2 lore and looked back at the SC1 lore.

[Gradius]

Yeah everyone here has always loved Aldaris. Good luck telling people that he's an amazing character on the b.net forums.

[KaiserStratosTygo]

The will of the Conclave is ABSOLUTE.

[ragnarok]

The will of the Conclave is ABSOLUTE.

It's just another dictatorship. But then again, you can argue the same for democracy anyways, so I won't blame you for this Stratos.

[Gradius]

so I won't blame you for this Stratos.
Thank god! Stratos, you dodged a bullet! :eek:

[Turalyon]

Interesting. And here I thought you only did after the breakdown in the SC2 lore and looked back at the SC1 lore.

Yeah well, this is hardly surprising since you're usually wrong when it comes to presuming what others think.


The will of the Conclave is ABSOLUTE.

Man, the delivery of the next line he says after this was boss: "Make peace with Adun!"

[ragnarok]

Man, the delivery of the next line he says after this was boss: "Make peace with Adun!"

Oh that's nothing new as the Conclave praised Adun's actions in their belief he saved them from the Nerazim's actions for their unwillingness to accept the Khala.

[Nissa]

Oh, everyone's just copying me now is all. :p

I've loved Aldaris right from the start. He's my favourite Protoss character in Sc1 (I never fawned over overrated Tassadar like most Protoss-lovers do :p) and that's not just because he's voiced by Paul Eiding either. He, like Mengsk and the Overmind, are the most complex characters (and therefore most difficult to "like" in the traditional sense) in Sc1.

I love you Tura, but sometimes you say the weirdest things outta nowhere. Yes, Aldy is best 'Toss and yes, Mengskie-poo is complicated, but the Overmind? All he ever was was a giant eyeball that wanted to conquer everyone. He has no character depth. Sure, his motives are somewhat mysterious and interesting as a result, but he himself isn't terribly deep or complicated. In fact, one reason I dislike him is because he's on the boring side.

But Mengsk is marvelous as a baddie, I will say that.

[ragnarok]

I love you Tura, but sometimes you say the weirdest things outta nowhere. Yes, Aldy is best 'Toss and yes, Mengskie-poo is complicated, but the Overmind? All he ever was was a giant eyeball that wanted to conquer everyone. He has no character depth. Sure, his motives are somewhat mysterious and interesting as a result, but he himself isn't terribly deep or complicated. In fact, one reason I dislike him is because he's on the boring side.


That's because going by the SC1 lore, he thought his purpose was to assimilate everything, and in a way, misinterpreted the Xel'Naga's orders.

[Turalyon]

That's because going by the SC1 lore, he thought his purpose was to assimilate everything, and in a way, misinterpreted the Xel'Naga's orders.

At it again are we, Rag? By that, I mean, making presumptions of other peoples intent and taking that as fact as what they were intending? Sorry to say this but please don't speak on behalf or for others because you're terrible at it.

Either way, I fail to see how this (even if I did actually think this way) has anything to do with my thinking of it as a complex character. I have no idea what "misinterpreted the Xel'Naga's orders" is even supposed to be referring to since the Xel'Naga didn't give the Overmind an imperative beyond just it just merely being a representation of the gestalt consciousness of all Zerg.


I love you Tura, but sometimes you say the weirdest things outta nowhere.

Part of my charm, my dear. ;)


Yes, Aldy is best 'Toss and yes, Mengskie-poo is complicated, but the Overmind? All he ever was was a giant eyeball that wanted to conquer everyone. He has no character depth. Sure, his motives are somewhat mysterious and interesting as a result, but he himself isn't terribly deep or complicated. In fact, one reason I dislike him is because he's on the boring side.

I'm not going to disagree here because you're right in some ways. However, in my defence I have to get a bit pedantic since I didn't exactly qualify what I meant when I said "complex" the first time. When I said "complex", I meant it in terms of the concept/idea of the character in and of itself. This is different from what you desribe as "complicated", which you are using to describe perceived "depth" of a character.

Still, if we want to talk about character depth, there is one interesting and unwholesome character quality that ties Aldaris, Mengsk and the Overmind together. It's that all of them are marked by hubris. The Overmind is especially ironic in this case because it unwittingly becomes a hypocrite and a victim of karmic retribution in pronouncing that the Protoss' "overweening pride be their downfall" because it turns out to be, retrospectively, foreshadowing it's own defeat because of it's over-confidence/overweening pride.

[Nissa]

Oh, you were talking about themes, not characters.

Nah, I still can't see the Overmind as terribly interesting. He's not complex the same way Mengsk and Aldaris are, and I don't like the latter two because they're bad guys and "hard to like", I like them because they are complicated, and their moral levels are only an aspect of their complexity. That, and Aldaris' hubris isn't hubris so much as a belief in the Protoss, regardless of the Protoss' actual circumstances. Mengsk loves himself and only himself, and the Overmind is more accepting of issues the Swarm faces. Actually, since I put it that way, I don't think the Overmind is necessarily all about hubris. I think he just sees life as some sort of grand narrative wherein the Zerg are on a mystical quest of conquest which will eventually end in their victory.

....Okay, that's hubris.

[ragnarok]

I have no idea what "misinterpreted the Xel'Naga's orders" is even supposed to be referring to since the Xel'Naga didn't give the Overmind an imperative beyond just it just merely being a representation of the gestalt consciousness of all Zerg.



Yes, but you'd think (even based on SC1 lore) that the Xel'Naga would have needed the Overmind to incorporate the Zerg characteristics into itself upon creation, which in turn meant the assimilation of species, and then the Overmind merely took this too far.

[GnaReffotsirk]

Aldaris followed what had been working for ages. But he seems to have an inquisitive nature. He gives you an opportunity to prove yourself, while doing his job if ever he was right, or you were wrong. He seems to like to give you a chance, or just let things run its course, not stall by argument and speculation, so as to execute actions that would be necessary.

1. He gave permission to assault the cerebrate by Tassadar's suggestion. Tassadar was an asshole for sending the executor here just to prove a point.
2. He allowed Zeratul to escape with Tassadar.
3. He allowed Artanis to be praetor. (Was artanis a rebel? Why does he have short tendrils?)
4. He submits himself to the Dark Templar's laws and customs.
5. He apparently knows the Conclave have been Tyrannical towards the Dark Templar.

And he says, "We shall see."

[Turalyon]

Nah, I still can't see the Overmind as terribly interesting. He's not complex the same way Mengsk and Aldaris are, and I don't like the latter two because they're bad guys and "hard to like", I like them because they are complicated, and their moral levels are only an aspect of their complexity.

I don't mind this, it's a personal taste thing in the end anyways. What you see as mundane as tepid, others can see as being interesting.

I do agree that the Overmind is "not complex in the same way as Mengsk and Aldaris are" though, just not that because it is a different type of complex, that it's any less interesting to think about. Oh and I'm sorry if I inferred that you or that most people who liked these three were in any way "bad fans" (people who like characters because they are bad guys/unlikable) even though I know there are some who are actually such - not that I'm against them or anything, mind you. I didn't think I said or intended this at the time.


That, and Aldaris' hubris isn't hubris so much as a belief in the Protoss, regardless of the Protoss' actual circumstances.

It's one of those "you say toma(r)to, I say tota(y)to" things, huh? :p

Still hubris though. Whether you consider that good or bad is up to you. Whatever it is, it still makes Aldaris a great character either way.


Mengsk loves himself and only himself

I like to be contrarian when it comes to interpreting Mengsk because the game allows it. Sure, Mengsk's final rant/reveal marks him as an unstable, selfish man (for all time?) and that previous hints at his impatience for those who resist him as a potential powder keg, but I'd like to think that this reveal doesn't overshadow all his previous actions that, moral, personal and psychological considerations aside, can be justified on a pragmatic, utilitarian level. Mengsk egomania feels more scary to me when I consider that his anger at Raynor is not about him being selfish but if Mengsk feels that he's being selfless. The "I will rule this sector or see it burnt to ashes around me" line is seen as a selfish tantrum-y threat of "it's I either do this or I will do that", but I sometimes like to consider it that Mengsk is stating that "I have to do this (rule the sector) or that other thing (seeing it burnt to ashes and not necessarily by his hand) would happen".

It's funny in a way that this last speech in The Hammer Falls forever damns Mengsk as being the "baddest of bad people" to most viewers (due to being forced into Raynor's perspective no doubt - Mengsk still is an idealistic rebel crusader even if he's "The Man" now, just not Raynor's concept of "idealistic"), whilst Aldaris' last speech in Eye of the Storm doesn't absolve him in the eyes of viewers. I guess people must like cateogrising people as villains since it's easier on them to do so.


Actually, since I put it that way, I don't think the Overmind is necessarily all about hubris. I think he just sees life as some sort of grand narrative wherein the Zerg are on a mystical quest of conquest which will eventually end in their victory.

....Okay, that's hubris.

Haha, now you're getting it! That's how I see the Overmind chapter in some ways (weakest as it is comparatively to the other Sc1 Episodes in terms of narrative/storytelling). Much as I am a Zerg fan, the grandiose, seemingly god-like Overmind who "respects" the Protoss as a worthwhile enemy but sees their pride as a weakness, really is unaware of its own hypocrisy/that it shares the same weakness. It's great because the game never hints at it so much, but it's there if you look for it.


Yes, but you'd think (even based on SC1 lore) that the Xel'Naga would have needed the Overmind to incorporate the Zerg characteristics into itself upon creation, which in turn meant the assimilation of species, and then the Overmind merely took this too far.

Sorry, but I don't understand what you're trying to say here. According to original lore, the Xel'Naga already incorporated the "Zerg characteristics" into the Overmind upon it's creation as a means to help them maintain purity of essence (a lesson learnt from their failure with the Protoss) because it's, by design, the gestalt consciousness of the Zerg. It literally is the will of each and all the Zerg at the same time. Simpler still, it is the Zerg.

[ragnarok]

Aldaris followed what had been working for ages. But he seems to have an inquisitive nature. He gives you an opportunity to prove yourself, while doing his job if ever he was right, or you were wrong. He seems to like to give you a chance, or just let things run its course, not stall by argument and speculation, so as to execute actions that would be necessary.

1. He gave permission to assault the cerebrate by Tassadar's suggestion. Tassadar was an asshole for sending the executor here just to prove a point.
2. He allowed Zeratul to escape with Tassadar.
3. He allowed Artanis to be praetor. (Was artanis a rebel? Why does he have short tendrils?)
4. He submits himself to the Dark Templar's laws and customs.
5. He apparently knows the Conclave have been Tyrannical towards the Dark Templar.

And he says, "We shall see."

True, but it seems like despite saying that, Aldaris has already convinced himself he'll be proven right in the end. I personally felt he was still very reluctant to admit error to Tassadar at the beginning of the "Eye of the Storm" mission.

[TheEconomist]

Maybe this was already said, but this comic is free on Amazon right now.

A bunch of the Overwatch comics are free right now too, if anyone cares.

[ragnarok]

I already read it online anyway, so it doesn't matter

[Gradius]

I already read it online anyway, so it doesn't matter
There are other people in existence besides you, so yes, it does. :P

That being said, it was free since it came out.

[TheEconomist]

That being said, it was free since it came out.

Figured. I'm slow on such things. I seem to miss all of the freebies of the internet, but I'll be god damned if I ever miss a Steam or GOG sale.

[ragnarok]

Figured. I'm slow on such things. I seem to miss all of the freebies of the internet, but I'll be god damned if I ever miss a Steam or GOG sale.

There's always a 1st time....