Starcraft Manual Discussion

[Nissa]

Just so you don't have to look up the lore, here's a link to a quick blog of the manual I made.

http://starcraftmanual.blogspot.com/

So anyway, I was looking through the manual, and came across this.

"Without the discipline of the Path of Ascension, the powers of the Rogues spiraled out of control and unleashed horrible, devastating storms across the fields of Aiur. The Conclave, shocked that the Templar had not destroyed the Rogue Tribes, attempted to salvage the desperate situation. If the Conclave punished Adun and the Templar for their insubordination, it would be forced to publicly admit the existence of the Rogues. Thus the Conclave decided to banish the wayward Tribes from Aiur forever. The Templar under Adun were sworn to silence as the Rogues were loaded onto an ancient, but functional Xel’Naga ship and launched into the void of space.

Forever after the Rogue Tribes would be known as the Dark Templar. Over time, the legend of the Dark Templar spread across the face of Aiur, sparking the imaginations of many young Protoss. To show their disdain for the Conclave and their Judicator lackeys, the Dark Templar ceremoniously cut off their nerve-appendages, effectively severing themselves from the basic communal link that all Protoss share. It was widely rumoured that since the Shadow Hunters were cut off from the primal chord of their race, they were forced to draw their psionic energies from the dark, cold void of space."

Note the chronology -- the original rogues are not shown cutting off their nerve cords. They just get exiled. Instead, later Protoss, "emo-kids", if you will, cut themselves as a sign of rebellion. Apparently, becoming a DT does not necessitate the severance, and maybe some of the original DT would have thought the young rebels well-intentioned idiots for actually doing so. I like this, as it makes the Dark Templar more complicated than they are shown in the games. Differences of opinion make for interesting storytelling, and it's sad that the DT were almost never (Ulrezaj) having separate opinions, and now since the Khala is supposedly so bad, that reduces all the Protoss to one opinion.

In essence, more opinions = better storytelling, to a point.

[Gradius]

I think you're reading it wrong. It still talks about the original rogues in that passage aka. "the dark Templar". The lack of transition might make it seem like it's talking about newer generations but I think the paragraph is talking about speculation about what happened to the dark Templar since they cut off their nerve cords.

[Turalyon]

The Tal'Darim don't have the Khala, still have their nerve chords and have different opinions from "mainline" Protoss. Just sayin...

Anyways, the Dark Templar are already complicated in the sense that all the Protoss during the Aeon of Strife were more or less proto-Dark Templar because they had willingly forsaken their link without cutting their nerve chords and it was almost to their own undoing. It's why the Khalai Protoss feared the Dark Templar - not only because of their direct influence and connection to the Aeon of Strife but because they were a reflection of something they knew deep down they could easily fall back into/become if they didn't adhere to the strictures that Khas began.

[Nissa]

I know all that, Tura. It's just fascinating that the manual doesn't show DT cutting off their nerve cords until the original ones were exiled. As you said, the Conclave exiled the renegades because they represented the past they didn't want to go back to, not that the renegades cut off their nerve cords. The cutting may have been a reaction to the exile by sympathizers.

Nah, Gradius. Well, maybe, but examine this quote:

"Over time, the legend of the Dark Templar spread across the face of Aiur, sparking the imaginations of many young Protoss. To show their disdain for the Conclave and their Judicator lackeys, the Dark Templar ceremoniously cut off their nerve-appendages...

Given that the first sentence is about young people on Aiur, it makes sense that the next sentence would continue to do so, implying that other people would side with them over time. After all, if the Dark Templar tried to protect Aiur over time, it stands to reason that at times they would be close enough to meet Khalai 'Toss every so often. It may well be that Tassadar's involvement was more of a peak or climax of already ongoing DT issues. After all, of the three castes, it would be the Templar most likely to encounter DT.

In either case, I'm not initiating argument. I just want to discuss ideas. :D

[ragnarok]

I know all that, Tura. It's just fascinating that the manual doesn't show DT cutting off their nerve cords until the original ones were exiled. As you said, the Conclave exiled the renegades because they represented the past they didn't want to go back to, not that the renegades cut off their nerve cords. The cutting may have been a reaction to the exile by sympathizers.

That's probably what happened. After the exile, I think the Dark Templar felt they didn't want to have anything to do with the Khalai anymore (even though as Zeratul explained to Tassadar, they still did what they could to help Aiur in times of need), and the nerve chord, at least to them, was more of a symbol of the Khalai and the Khala they represented, hence a reason to cut it off.

[Visions of Khas]

hence a reason to cut it off.
Sooo the Dark Templar are Space Jews. Got it.

[Turalyon]

Here's an idea: evil/bad Dark Templar. Discuss.


Sooo the Dark Templar are Space Jews. Got it.

That's wacist! :p

[Visions of Khas]

That's wacist! :p

Hey, everyone's a little bit racist (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbud8rLejLM).

[ragnarok]

Here's an idea: evil/bad Dark Templar. Discuss.



That's wacist! :p

You can start by putting Ulrezaj on the list.

[Nissa]

Sooo the Dark Templar are Space Jews. Got it.

I was thinking more emo kids who cut themselves while listening to Dashboard Confessional. Heh, if you think about it, the Dark Templar (pre-SC2, anyway) are sort of like an analogue of the emo-kid hero: the person who gets hated on for their good qualities. Like Kirito from Sword Art Online, or the characters of X-Men, having powers automatically makes everyone hate you, despite the fact you haven't done anything wrong.

The reason why the DT are more sophistocated is because it's logical to "hate" them for their powers, as their powers can have some seriously negative consequences.

[Visions of Khas]

The reason why the DT are more sophistocated is because it's logical to "hate" them for their powers, as their powers can have some seriously negative consequences.

The Khalai hate them because they represent the Aeon of Strife. But I think it would be interesting if a lot of the things the Khalai attributed to the Dark Templar over the years were actually perpetrated by Tal'Darim.

[Nissa]

The Khalai hate them because they represent the Aeon of Strife.

No duh. And also because their lack of discipline caused those storm thingies.


But I think it would be interesting if a lot of the things the Khalai attributed to the Dark Templar over the years were actually perpetrated by Tal'Darim.

Hm...that depends. The trouble with the Tal'darim is that we don't know what their alignment is supposed to be. Have they always been fully independent, or did they ever pretend to be allied with the Khalai 'Toss? The "Dark Templar" trilogy claimed that the Tal'darim formed after the fall of Aiur, but, well, nobody knows if we can really call that canon.

In any case, it's a good idea, but it'd have to either be the subject of a fan mod or a retcon. Maybe a nice campaign that talks about how the DT deal with the Tal'darim once they find out they're doing bad things in the TD's name.

[Visions of Khas]

The "Dark Templar" trilogy claimed that the Tal'darim formed after the fall of Aiur, but, well, nobody knows if we can really call that canon.
That particular branch of the Tal'darim didn't surface until the fall of Aiur. Canonically, the Tal'Darim are a myth or legend, like ghost ships. Something that sprung up in the mythology of spacers. So until the branch hosted by Ulrezaj surfaced on Aiur, the Tal'darim were largely considered mythical.

What I'm saying is, it would be interesting if Tal'darim pirates preyed on the Khalai fleets for centuries, and these skirmishes were attributed to the Dark Templar, rather than the Tal'Darim.

I pointed out the Aeon of Strife bit because the Khalai see the Dark Templar as a callback to more barbaric times; the Dark Templar were perceived as monstrous -- what else could result when you don't have the Khala? The reality, however, is that it was the Tal'Darim that truly perpetuated the mindset of the Aeon of Strife. Hence my speculation above.

[Turalyon]

The idea that some of the fear of the Dark Templar being partially due to Tal'darim has some legs but it would be nice if they weren't solely responsible for it.

The Dark Templar were already becoming similar to the Templar in that they are noble, good, righteous and more regimented then was initially thought. They need something that hearkens back to their carefree, individualistic spirit and the dangers that that can bring. This can be a contrast between the maliciousness/evil of the Tal'darim or Ulrezaj.

[Nissa]

Khas, your idea is fun, but the Tal'darim seem more subtle than outright violent (says the person who hasn't finished all of LotV). And if the Tal'darim were more directly antagonistic, they wouldn't be "mythical" to anyone who was their victim. I've always seen the Tal'darim as prioritizing the things they hold dear over antagonizing anyone, and violence only comes when what they protect is in danger. Maybe some sort of sect whose Xel'Naga worship has gotten out of hand. The Khalai tolerate them, but don't take anything they say terribly seriously.

I like your idea, Tura. It sounds spookier, and gives the DT a better level of depth. My only concern is a bit of real world consideration. The Protoss are better as a united group, but individualism itself isn't evil. Economically speaking, individual action has always been better for trade than any form of unity -- ie, government control, monopolies, cartels, trusts, etc. Of course, you could always tie that in. Like, the DT who are more open tend to be ones who reject the Khalai because they'd rather not submit to the Conclave and Khalai-related authority structures, but are okay with the Khala in terms of psychic techniques. Then there's the the people who can't see the difference between the two, and then another group who begins to see the advantage of having something like a Conclave, or other government structure.

[Visions of Khas]

the Tal'darim seem more subtle than outright violent (says the person who hasn't finished all of LotV). I've always seen the Tal'darim as prioritizing the things they hold dear over antagonizing anyone, and violence only comes when what they protect is in danger.
*snicker* Finish the game, please.

[ragnarok]

The idea that some of the fear of the Dark Templar being partially due to Tal'darim has some legs but it would be nice if they weren't solely responsible for it.

The Dark Templar were already becoming similar to the Templar in that they are noble, good, righteous and more regimented then was initially thought. They need something that hearkens back to their carefree, individualistic spirit and the dangers that that can bring. This can be a contrast between the maliciousness/evil of the Tal'darim or Ulrezaj.

I thought that too at least had SOMETHING to do with the Khala. The Nerazim rejected it, but they at least saw the Khala can bring peace and the honor aspect of it. This is something the Tal'darim didn't have

[Visions of Khas]

I thought that too at least had SOMETHING to do with the Khala. The Nerazim rejected it, but they at least saw the Khala can bring peace and the honor aspect of it. This is something the Tal'darim didn't have

Philosophically speak, the Khalai seem altruistic (probably because the Khala activated mirror neurons and spindle fibers), whereas the Tal'darim abide by rational egoism. Alarak's actions bespoke of great selfishness; even though his "bargains" benefited others, he perceived himself as getting the most out of the situation. Tal'darim aren't stupid; if they foresee future opportunities, they'll take it, and will probably honor any agreement rather than needlessly stabbing you in the back... unless their ultimate goal is to see your back riddled with holes.

I'm rusty on my philosophy, but I think they're Space Ayne Randians.

[ragnarok]

Philosophically speak, the Khalai seem altruistic (probably because the Khala activated mirror neurons and spindle fibers), whereas the Tal'darim abide by rational egoism. Alarak's actions bespoke of great selfishness; even though his "bargains" benefited others, he perceived himself as getting the most out of the situation. Tal'darim aren't stupid; if they foresee future opportunities, they'll take it, and will probably honor any agreement rather than needlessly stabbing you in the back... unless their ultimate goal is to see your back riddled with holes.

I'm rusty on my philosophy, but I think they're Space Ayne Randians.

Rational egoism? It's really hard to say. Alarak certainly held a VERY low regard for the Zerg during the Templar's Return mission when he and Vorazun were on there way to the 1st power structure.....

[Turalyon]

The Protoss are better as a united group, but individualism itself isn't evil.

The Fall in Sc1 is already a good exploration of this. In some ways the Protoss are better as a united group in that Tassadar's inclusion and acceptance of the Dt's enabled the defeat of the Overmind and that current Protoss society is much better than it was during the Aeon of Strife because of the unity that the Khala gave them. In other ways, being a united group can be bad because of the institutional rot that the Conclave represents prevented them from seeing the potential of Tassadar's out-of-left-field-thinking being beneficial. Likewise, the notion of individualism being good is tested in that the Aeon of Strife essentially represented how individualism was evil and almost brought them to their own extinction, the individualism of Aldaris as a representative of a particular caste and that Tassadar's inciting of a civil war in Sc1 could've backfired and potentially ushered their defeat to the Zerg.


Economically speaking, individual action has always been better for trade than any form of unity -- ie, government control, monopolies, cartels, trusts, etc. Of course, you could always tie that in. Like, the DT who are more open tend to be ones who reject the Khalai because they'd rather not submit to the Conclave and Khalai-related authority structures, but are okay with the Khala in terms of psychic techniques. Then there's the the people who can't see the difference between the two, and then another group who begins to see the advantage of having something like a Conclave, or other government structure.

Hmm, this has got me thinking of the idea of some of the DT being a band of pirates!!

[Nissa]

Well yeah. There should be all kinds of DT. I'd kinda seen them as vaguely based on Shakuras, but only because there's a Xel'Naga temple there. It's more or less a base of operations to come back to while half or most of the DT are away either protecting Aiur or exploring deep space. Heck, I'd imagine there's DT out there who have been exploring deep space, and haven't been back in time to see (1) the zerg wars or (2) the arrival of Khala exiles.

[ragnarok]

Well yeah. There should be all kinds of DT. I'd kinda seen them as vaguely based on Shakuras, but only because there's a Xel'Naga temple there. It's more or less a base of operations to come back to while half or most of the DT are away either protecting Aiur or exploring deep space. Heck, I'd imagine there's DT out there who have been exploring deep space, and haven't been back in time to see (1) the zerg wars or (2) the arrival of Khala exiles.

It's a shame. The SC wiki showed there were different DT tribes, if only Blizzard tried to capitalize on them. Certainly that should have been something on the cards in LotV, but it was ignored.

[Jconant]

Regarding the Tal'darim, they dont have severed nerve cords but still utilize void energy, clearly don't adhere to the khala nor appear to be directly influenced by amon. Is this because of the tech they have on their nerve cords, or does it have something to do with the properties of terrazine that make them independant?

[Visions of Khas]

Regarding the Tal'darim, they dont have severed nerve cords but still utilize void energy, clearly don't adhere to the khala nor appear to be directly influenced by amon. Is this because of the tech they have on their nerve cords, or does it have something to do with the properties of terrazine that make them independant?

All protoss with intact nerve appendages share the psychic Communal Link; they feel one another's emotions. This is what fueled the perpetual war during the Aeon of Strife, an emotional feedback loop.

In and of itself, the Khala is a set of mental disciplines that elevate the Communal Link from a subconscious, instinctual trait to a conscious and controllable asset. The Khala is a voluntary pseudo-hivemind, and was a stepping stone to the complete, involuntary Hivemind Amon succeeded in creating with the Zerg.

Without the Khala, the Tal'Darim never elevated their Link to a conscious level, barring Amon from directly controlling them. However, they felt his hatred, and their culture was shaped by it.

[ragnarok]

Without the Khala, the Tal'Darim never elevated their Link to a conscious level, barring Amon from directly controlling them. However, they felt his hatred, and their culture was shaped by it.

Interesting. This makes me wonder how effectively they could look into Amon's thoughts, since the terrazine was supposed to do just that, and ultimately SOME of the Tal'darim prior to Alarak did begin to suspect what Amon told them wasn't the truth...

[Turalyon]

All protoss with intact nerve appendages share the psychic Communal Link; they feel one another's emotions. This is what fueled the perpetual war during the Aeon of Strife, an emotional feedback loop.

Really? The manual indicates the Communal Link as being voluntary and that they can sever themselves from it merely by focusing on individual goals/personal achievement. This lack of empathy/disconnection from each other is what fueled their "unthinking hate" during the Aeon of Strife, not some emotional feedback loop. It's only when Khas was able to reconnect to the link and finally share the emotions of each and every Protoss through it did they stop which indicates that if they could always feel each other's emotions throughout the Aeon of Strife, it wouldn't have gone as long or as bloody.

[Visions of Khas]

Flooded by emotions emanating from every member of his race, Khas became aware that the Protoss had not lost their primal link, but had simply forgotten how to attune themselves to it.
You may be right, but I had always kind of seen the generations of wanton hatred as having permeated the link at some unconscious level. But that's just my interpretation.

[ragnarok]

You may be right, but I had always kind of seen the generations of wanton hatred as having permeated the link at some unconscious level. But that's just my interpretation.

If that was true, Amon should have realized that's a double edged sword. If the Tal'darim could have found a way to attune themselves back into the Khala, that would have fit nicely with his plans to still have Protoss under his control. On the other hand, by using the wanton hatred, he thought that'd leave the Tal'darim completely blind, but Amon didn't realize eventually, some might end up questioning him.