Duran's Motives and the Tal'darim Factor

[ragnarok]

All right Gradius, since you had repeatedly asked about the Tal'darim matter in the other thread (http://sclegacy.com/forums/showthread.php?16368-Could-the-Hybrid-Production-Have-Been-Around-Way-Longer-Than-We-All-Thought), I thought I'd make one here to try to explain things, and I'll try to tie as much of the lores together as I can, but I'm still going to use the SC2 lore to try to make sense of the SC1 lore.

When I wrote about the idea of very little progress had been made in the 3000 years after Amon was sent back into the Void, you had scoffed at the idea that Kerrigan's psionic energy alone did virtually all the work because there was no possible way she could be that powerful, even during her infested state. I agree with you on that. In this, I would like to refer to what TheBentOne had said on the battlenet forums: Kerrigan's psionic energy alone didn't revive Amon, it was merely the last thing Duran needed to push the proverbial boulder down the hill.

Recall the prison that Amon was put into when he was forced back into the Void. Now yes, there wasn't much progress made from 2439 to 2499 as the Zerg headed to the Korpulu Sector, since the Overmind didn't know the exact location of Aiur. It was vital that Duran gathered the psionic energies necessary in order to free his master, or the void prison he was stuck in would kill him. By the time of 2499, the situation had grown critical. Clearly Amon didn't have too much longer left to live, and Duran was getting very desperate.

You had asked why the hell Duran didn't just use the Tal'darim as a psionic energy source. The theory I have for that is simple:

Think of recharging a battery. The closer it reaches the 0% mark, the longer it's going to take to recharge. Or think of a man on the brink of being starved to death. The closer he is to that brink, the more food he's going to need to make himself full.

When Amon was banished into the Void around 500 BC, Duran's plan never once changed from simply gathering enough psionic energy to send to his master in order to free him from the void prison. But the more Amon is weakened in that prison, the more psionic energy it's going to need in order to free him. Likely by the time of 2499, Amon was already weakened to near death from being in that void prison, despite having drained Ouros's essence for the last 3000 years in order to keep himself alive. If that's true, it means it would require a huge amount of psionic energy in order to release him, and ensure he'd be relatively strong after he's released from the Void.

Now, you may want to look at the Tal'darim population: if you had looked at Slayn, you would've noticed the total population is only about 12 million. This is extremely small even compared to the Nerazim population Shakuras, which by 2506 was 194 million.

Furthermore, the Dark Templar were kicked off Aiur about 3000 years ago, whereas the Tal'darim left Aiur millions of years ago. We already know from Shadow Hunters that there weren't that many Nerazim when they were sent off Aiur via the Xel'Naga freighter ship (I don't know the numbers, maybe a few hundred or something, you can correct me if I'm wrong about that part). This could imply that the Tal'darim were even fewer in number when they left Aiur back then. After all, we were never given the numbers as to just how many Tal'darim Amon took off Aiur...

Therefore, it's entirely possible that even if the whole of the Tal'darim population on Slayn was sacrificed and their psionic energies transferred to Amon, Duran still wouldn't have had enough in order to help his master escape the void prison and restore him to adequate strength level.

This is when (relative to him) the miracle happened. Remember, however late in the day it was, the swarm's invasion of Aiur ultimately did occur. Amon had been badly weakened and almost to the point of death after being stuck in the void prison for so long, but with the Aiur invasion, it's possible Duran felt confident that this would finally bring him what he needed to help his master.

Unfortunately (this is how I see a possible theory would go), because Amon was so badly weakened, he needed way more psionic energy than Duran had originally thought. Thus despite the fact that billions of Khalai Protoss were killed on Aiur by the Zerg, the psionic energies collected still fell just short of expectations. For example, it could like by the end of the Protoss campaign in SC1, Duran had gathered about 95% of the total psionic energy he needed to help Amon.

To make things even worse, it was at this point in time that Tassadar killed the Overmind. The Zerg broods on Aiur laid scattered and broken, and despite the fact that their rampage continued (as Zeratul was telling Aldaris at the beginning of BW Protoss mission 1), this gave the Khalai people the chance necessary to escape to Shakuras. As a result of this, Duran's plans got thrown into disarray once again because the source of psionic energy he needed for Amon got cut off.

This brings us to Brood War, and Duran's actions there. The way I see it, in the beginning Duran sided with the UED because he was hoping that once the UED won, he could use their tech to produce the hybrids to keep things going with Amon's plan. After all, the forces sent the Koprulu Sector was just an expedition force, and that defeated the Dominion military just fine, so obviously the UED was a force to be reckoned with. However, Duran quickly realized that just making the hybrids would be of little use if Amon remained imprisoned in the Void. It's also possible that Duran didn't see the possibility that the UED could actually control the 2nd Overmind like that, though this seems unlikely.

A possible theory could be that when the UED declared to take over the sector, it didn't have to mean brute force to everyone. After all, in the 4th Protoss BW mission, when Stukov made contact with Artanis's fleet, he didn't immediately open fire on them, but rather demanded Artanis's forces power down their weapons. It's entirely possible that perhaps while the UED's plan for the Zerg involved brute force and subjugation, their plans against the Protoss might be to try a non-hostile approach first or something.

We'll never really know for sure, but if that was indeed the UED's plan, then Duran would have realized that there would be no conflict with the Protoss, and therefore would lead to no more psionic energies to be gathered to help Amon. Therefore, although he would lose a great advantage in the hopes of utilizing UED technology in order to create the hybrids, it was a sacrifice he had to make, since freeing Amon from the void should be top priority.

This now explains his actions in helping Kerrigan before the UED campaign in BW even ended, as Duran knew all along Kerrigan would betray her allies, and knew that Artanis would likely come for revenge for such actions (as indeed happened in "Omega.")

The problem, however was that unlike what happened in the Aiur invasion, the bloodshed here with the Protoss was much lower. Therefore, what I see possible is that by the end of the BW, Duran had managed to gather about 99.9999% of the psionic energies needed to free Amon and restore his strength. However because Kerrigan withdrew the swarm and went quiet for the next few years, Duran was denied the last "piece of the puzzle."

Now, you're probably asking, "Then why the hell in the immediate aftermath of the BW didn't Duran just use the Tal'darim on Slayn?" Very good question. I would have done just that if I was in Duran's position. Retcons and Blizzard stupidity aside, a possible reason could be because Duran didn't want the secret leaked out, and didn't want the Tal'darim to turn on him, since at that point in time he didn't have control over the swarm.

This brings us to the events right before WoL: likely by that point in time, Duran realized that it was ok to proceed with the hybrid production via Dominion and Moebius tech even though Amon was still stuck in the Void. In that regard, it would mean he had suspected all along that Raynor would succeed in the Char invasion in order to deinfest Kerrigan. Of course, this would be contradictory to the way he was acting in SC2, especially in the LotV epilogue where he had said, "You cannot resist forever, Raynor. You do not deserve to stand among gods."

In that respect I think Duran suffered the same problem Kerrigan did in her view about Raynor during the infestation years. Both of them seemed to share the view that Raynor was weak and feeble when going up against their personal forces, but was exceptionally skilled and could prevail regardless of the odds when fighting someone else's forces.

[Jackson009]

Exceptionally educational and great write you are about Duran's Motives and the Tal'darim Factor which likewise can possibly develop. Perused the UK Essays (http://www.freshessays.co.uk/) from anyplace simply through few ticks.

[Turalyon]

You had asked why the hell Duran didn't just use the Tal'darim as a psionic energy source. The theory I have for that is simple:

**Goes on to read essay and thinks "if this is simple, I can't even imagine what something complicated would look like to Rag"**

This theory of yours essentially negates the importance of Kerrigan's deinfestation by the artifact and exposes it as the plot gimmick that it really is. It brings into question why Kerrigan's deinfestation is really even required at all. Since she's already a potential thrall of Amon in her original infested state and (as you've put it) Duran was already on the verge of awakening Amon by the time Sc2 starts due to the mass Protoss deaths throughout Sc1/BW, going on to deinfest her to push the actual awakening of Amon over some undisclosed but arbitrary threshold is kinda stupid.

If Duran's "that close", he can really just kill a few more Protoss by getting the Tal'Darim to attack the rebel Tal'Darim (or heck, the Protoss on Shakuras even) guarding the artifacts to top-up instead of relying on some nobody drunk and hope that he can "find" artifacts he already knows of where to procure, somehow get enough might to go to Char, fight the Zerg and get close enough to use said artifact to drain this last bit of energy to revive Amon.

[Visions of Khas]

Bad writing.

Duran has this massive pool of psionic energy in the form of Terrazine-empowered Tal'darim. There's no reason Amon and Duran need Kerrigan.

[ragnarok]

**Goes on to read essay and thinks "if this is simple, I can't even imagine what something complicated would look like to Rag"**

This theory of yours essentially negates the importance of Kerrigan's deinfestation by the artifact and exposes it as the plot gimmick that it really is. It brings into question why Kerrigan's deinfestation is really even required at all. Since she's already a potential thrall of Amon in her original infested state and (as you've put it) Duran was already on the verge of awakening Amon by the time Sc2 starts due to the mass Protoss deaths throughout Sc1/BW, going on to deinfest her to push the actual awakening of Amon over some undisclosed but arbitrary threshold is kinda stupid.


Personally after LotV I too felt they didn't look at this carefully enough. Prior to LotV, we had all assumed that draining Kerrigan's psionic energy was the last bit necessary to push the bolder down the hill, but LotV made it seem like her energy ALONE did it, and that's utter BS. As I had once stated on the battlenet forums, that'd be the equivalent of using a AAA battery to charge a nuclear reactor.

The whole deinfestation wasn't required, Tura, but it was something done merely for the sake of energy drain. This makes me believe Duran was unable to program the Keystone to drain her without deinfesting her at the same time.


Bad writing.

Duran has this massive pool of psionic energy in the form of Terrazine-empowered Tal'darim. There's no reason Amon and Duran need Kerrigan.

You don't know that, again this depended on if Amon was in a weakened state within the Void or not.

[Turalyon]

Prior to LotV, we had all assumed that draining Kerrigan's psionic energy was the last bit necessary to push the bolder down the hill, but LotV made it seem like her energy ALONE did it, and that's utter BS.

Strangely enough, given that Sc2's story is driven by plot machinations above all else, it sort've makes more sense for this particular narrative to have it that Kerrigan's energy alone to have revived Amon because otherwise, it opens even more plotholes that requires even more contrivance to band-aid over. Your "simple" theory is a testament to this since it shows how much one has to bend things/rely on speculation and contrivance in order for it to fit.


The whole deinfestation wasn't required, Tura, but it was something done merely for the sake of energy drain.

No, no. The story suggests that deinfestation and energy drain is synonymous. Even though deinfestation was not the intended goal, the stripping of her power (the intended goal of draing energy for Amon's revival) results in deinfestation. Thus, the deinfestation is required for the sake of energy drain.

You're theory comes with the unfortunate implication that the draining of energy (which is synonymous with her deinfestation) from Kerrigan is not really necessary at all since you have not refuted that Duran has other options to get this litle bit of energy that is required to revive Amon but rather that he doesn't take these other options because he wants to make it harder for himself (it's much easier to use the Tal'darim then it is to plan and rely on Raynor doing what he does in WoL) for "reasons" (ie: contrivance). It actually exposes the whole thing as what it is really is: narrative artifice (ie: bad writing).

[ragnarok]

Strangely enough, given that Sc2's story is driven by plot machinations above all else, it sort've makes more sense for this particular narrative to have it that Kerrigan's energy alone to have revived Amon because otherwise, it opens even more plotholes that requires even more contrivance to band-aid over. Your "simple" theory is a testament to this since it shows how much one has to bend things/rely on speculation and contrivance in order for it to fit.


The main matter is that she's not supposed to have that much power, unless whatever was keeping Amon in the Void wasn't really that strong in the first place, and therefore Duran only needed a small amount of psionic energy. But if that's true he could have used the Tal'darim, unless the Xel'Naga who banished Amon into the Void had ensured that nothing he uplifted could be used a source of energy for that, though that's unlikely as that'd make the whole of Amon's plan useless with the hybrid and everything.



No, no. The story suggests that deinfestation and energy drain is synonymous. Even though deinfestation was not the intended goal, the stripping of her power (the intended goal of draing energy for Amon's revival) results in deinfestation. Thus, the deinfestation is required for the sake of energy drain.

You're theory comes with the unfortunate implication that the draining of energy (which is synonymous with her deinfestation) from Kerrigan is not really necessary at all since you have not refuted that Duran has other options to get this litle bit of energy that is required to revive Amon but rather that he doesn't take these other options because he wants to make it harder for himself (it's much easier to use the Tal'darim then it is to plan and rely on Raynor doing what he does in WoL) for "reasons" (ie: contrivance). It actually exposes the whole thing as what it is really is: narrative artifice (ie: bad writing).

Well yes Duran could have gotten it from other sources. As I said in the opening post, clearly this was something Blizzard overlooked, the only way this could be done would depend on just what the other Xel'Naga did to Amon after putting him back into the Void.

Bottom line is that I'm trying to come up with some other reason beyond "Because Blizzard is stupid." You've been to the battlenet forums and you've seen that phrase used so many times it's lost all meaning.

[Visions of Khas]

No, no. The story suggests that deinfestation and energy drain is synonymous.
When talking about the Keystone, I remember Karax saying something like, Kerrigan's particular brand of energy was inextricably tied to her zerg infestation. Hence, harvesting her power nullified her infestation. Again, it's just BS.

[ragnarok]

When talking about the Keystone, I remember Karax saying something like, Kerrigan's particular brand of energy was inextricably tied to her zerg infestation. Hence, harvesting her power nullified her infestation. Again, it's just BS.

That shouldn't have been the case, VoK. Remember the Amerigo mission from SC1?

[Turalyon]

The main matter is that she's not supposed to have that much power

Why not? Doesn't the EU (and Sc2 confirm) that Infested Kerrigan is the "bee's knees" when it comes to psionic power?

Like I said, if the matter is that "Kerrigan was not to have that much power" we run back into the initial issue that plagued WoL's ending the first time round: that the deinfestation of Kerrigan felt like a shameless plot machination/narrative artifice ("what a twist!") to move the story in an obviously preconceived and unnatural way. That HotS gives up an alternate explanation of it being to drain her power to wake Amon is still a bandaid solution to be sure, but even that only holds if Kerrigan does indeed have this "power" as part of her infestation. If you take that aspect (her infested state having the only sufficient power to wake Amon) away, you have to make up a whole mess of other convulutions to explain why Duran didn't just use other, more convenient sources. Sadly, your theory is exactly that and it's not intuitive or as simple as you would like to believe.


Well yes Duran could have gotten it from other sources.

Strangely enough, Sc2 never really posits this. In some ways, it's good because if it didn't say Duran could have gotten it from other sources, then maybe he actually couldn't. This then cements the importance of Kerrigan's infested state as being the only source to awaken Amon, justifies (abeit in an arbitrary way) what initially felt like a "throw it in" piece of plotting and actually reduces the creation of more plotholes. Course, it can easily go the other way, too - if it didn't say he could get other sources, he may well and could have. However, this opens up more plot-holes because it begs the question of why he didn't use these sources and why these sources weren't available, leading to an infinite regression of "why" (your theory is this). I'm thinking that Occam's razor tends to tilt in favour of Duran not having any other sources.


Bottom line is that I'm trying to come up with some other reason beyond "Because Blizzard is stupid."

There's no need. It's actually simpler with the band-aid answer that Blizz gives in HotS and that Kerrigan's deinfestation through the Keystone is the only thing that can awaken Amon. Given the "realignment" (I would call it a retcon but you'd probably take it as a perjorative even though I use and intend it as a neutral term) of her power status somewhere between the end of BW, the EU and the start of Sc2 as being god-like/as powerful as the Overmind if not moreso (which I never was convinced of anyway despite her winning in BW, mind you) already, than the answer in Sc2 is consistent with this "realignment".

And oh yeah, Infested Kerrigan's power being the only thing capable of reviving Amon would've also helped explain why it could only be her that could kill Amon at the end (sharing similar energies and all - much like what the Overmind says about the reason why Dark Templar are able to harm it back in Sc1).

[Visions of Khas]

That shouldn't have been the case, VoK. Remember the Amerigo mission from SC1?

I know. That's why I keep saying BS writing.

[ragnarok]

I know. That's why I keep saying BS writing.

It's only a shame they didn't look hard enough at it.

That being said, I still felt her psionic levels DID increase at least somewhat prior to the Amerigo mission....

[ragnarok]

And oh yeah, Infested Kerrigan's power being the only thing capable of reviving Amon would've also helped explain why it could only be her that could kill Amon at the end (sharing similar energies and all - much like what the Overmind says about the reason why Dark Templar are able to harm it back in Sc1).

That I doubt, since her ascension wasn't really a normal one, Ouros merely pulled some strings and all that. The Protoss essence were tainted from Amon's uplifting, otherwise they could have done it themselves.


Strangely enough, Sc2 never really posits this. In some ways, it's good because if it didn't say Duran could have gotten it from other sources, then maybe he actually couldn't. This then cements the importance of Kerrigan's infested state as being the only source to awaken Amon, justifies (abeit in an arbitrary way) what initially felt like a "throw it in" piece of plotting and actually reduces the creation of more plotholes. Course, it can easily go the other way, too - if it didn't say he could get other sources, he may well and could have. However, this opens up more plot-holes because it begs the question of why he didn't use these sources and why these sources weren't available, leading to an infinite regression of "why" (your theory is this). I'm thinking that Occam's razor tends to tilt in favour of Duran not having any other sources.

This would all have to depend on what the other Xel'Naga did when Amon was put into the Void, Tura. Yes the main reason was because the writers didn't factor this in, but that aside I felt that the other Xel'Naga could have put Amon in a place where he needed a specific type of psionic energy to free himself, and it took Duran a long time to figure out what type is needed. But even then it still doesn't prove Kerrigan's psionic energies alone freed him.

[Visions of Khas]

For some reason Kerrigan's power was vital; Amon said he Hybrid form was forged in part from the essence of "The Great Betrayer" -- Kerrigan's essence. But for what reason? Why not Protoss form and essence? Did Duran not perfect the protoss-zerg integration? Did Amon need some fragment Abathur's workings? Why HER?

[ragnarok]

For some reason Kerrigan's power was vital; Amon said he Hybrid form was forged in part from the essence of "The Great Betrayer" -- Kerrigan's essence. But for what reason? Why not Protoss form and essence? Did Duran not perfect the protoss-zerg integration? Did Amon need some fragment Abathur's workings? Why HER?

No, the Great Betrayer was the Overmind. After all, his host body WAS built on top of the Overmind's corpse. This would mean the whole infesting Kerrigan process was something Amon viewed as the Overmind trying to defy him.

[Visions of Khas]

I thought it refeted to Kerrigan, partly because that's what Selendis called Kerrigan in Into the Void.

[KaiserStratosTygo]

It's a shame that Rag's creative energies are being channeled to try and make sense of SC2's abysmal writing, clearly he's put 232198121248% more effort into this than any of the hack frauds at blizzard did.

[ragnarok]

I thought it refeted to Kerrigan, partly because that's what Selendis called Kerrigan in Into the Void.

No it wouldn't. Amon specifically said with the essence of the Great Betrayer, the Khalai people would now fulfill their purpose. Remember, Duran's usage of Kerrigan's psionic energy was merely to release Amon from the Void, it had nothing to do with the host body.

[Turalyon]

That I doubt, since her ascension wasn't really a normal one, Ouros merely pulled some strings and all that. The Protoss essence were tainted from Amon's uplifting, otherwise they could have done it themselves.

Nothing's "normal" in Sc2, in general, so it can be whatever it likes really. Either way, the game/story wants to sell us that there can be only one (Kerrigan) to defeat Amon and having such a justification (the "sharing the same energy means its a weakness to exploit" thing), meager as it is, would've be better than the retconning of the foundations of the history regarding the purities in order to make it fit since this still keeps internal consistency with what has happened earlier on in Sc2 without mucking established things up. Even now, I still can't really piece together whether what Amon did to the Protoss actually meant they never had purity of form to begin with or not. It's bloody confusing is what it is!


But even then it still doesn't prove Kerrigan's psionic energies alone freed him.

I'm not saying it proves one thing or another, I'm saying it's clearer/more cogent with the narrative that Sc2 is trying to sell if Infested Kerrigan's power was the only thing that can free Amon. I can't see why not consideing that the major theme of Sc2 is to show us how special, unique and powerful these singular characters are.


I thought it refeted to Kerrigan, partly because that's what Selendis called Kerrigan in Into the Void.

Rag's right about it referring to the Overmind. When Amon mentions "the Great Betrayer", the only thing that ever betrayed him specifically was the Overmind. It's very much like Warcraft's Nerzhul/the Lich King (the Overmind) betraying Kil'jaeden (Amon).

[Visions of Khas]

Rag's right about it referring to the Overmind. When Amon mentions "the Great Betrayer", the only thing that ever betrayed him specifically was the Overmind. It's very much like Warcraft's Nerzhul/the Lich King (the Overmind) betraying Kil'jaeden (Amon).

Cool. I always wondered which it was. And Selendis' comment didn't help clarify things.

[ragnarok]

Cool. I always wondered which it was. And Selendis' comment didn't help clarify things.

Well since you're on Selendis, that was the other thing that bothered me for Kerrigan thinking the Protoss had too little faith in her. She REALLY should have thought back to her history. Now, if she tried to make up for it after WoL in itself, then there's grounds for it all.

[ragnarok]

I'm not saying it proves one thing or another, I'm saying it's clearer/more cogent with the narrative that Sc2 is trying to sell if Infested Kerrigan's power was the only thing that can free Amon. I can't see why not consideing that the major theme of Sc2 is to show us how special, unique and powerful these singular characters are.


To me that shouldn't have been the case. No one is supposed to have THAT much importance. Sure the developers were trying to go for a redemption route on her, and look where that turned out in HotS. If nothing else they should have just let Amon survive LotV so a sequel can be made, and Kerrigan's stress on her importance (if there ever was any) would be nullified as it's now proven she's NOT the key to it all.

[Turalyon]

To me that shouldn't have been the case. No one is supposed to have THAT much importance.

That depends on the nature and intent of the story that was written. For example, if a story is about superheroes - then the superhero is supposed to have the highest "importance" and focus because it's a justified conceit for that particular genre. Now whether you consider the stories in Sc2 are about anything else but a story about superheroes, is something that I'll leave you to ponder.


If nothing else they should have just let Amon survive LotV so a sequel can be made, and Kerrigan's stress on her importance (if there ever was any) would be nullified as it's now proven she's NOT the key to it all.

Dear Lord, no! Amon, as a plot element, is partly why the narrative falls flat. One can try to make him as sympathetic and as awesome possible but really, at the end of the day, his mere presence out of nowhere as some great evil to be overcome just smacks of contrivance. Honestly, the conception of the character is just an excuse for a sequel to exist and even then, his presence is so perfunctory that two-thirds of Sc2 can go on with his parts excised and you'd be none the wiser. The UED (as presented in BW) and heck, even the Overmind/Zerg in Sc1 can also be accused of similar things to a degree, but at least they had presence.

Having such a non-entity that lacks presence for more than half the trilogy, then appearing in full force (having presence) at the end only to then have him continue on after the end will render Sc2 as a complete waste of time it already threatened itself to be. HotS more or less cancels out WoL and LotV more or less ignores what happens in HotS and carries on without one needing to know what happened in either WoL or HotS. If one then just goes and undermines the supposed climax that is the last of the "trilogy" by having Amon just escape to be a major threat for another day, I'd be beside myself with rage at how pointless everything in Sc2 turned out to be.

I'd even go as far as considering Amon surviving as being a worse idea than the Epilogue that we eventually got because even though the epilogue was poorly conceived, felt unearnt and like a cheat, it had finality. It ended. I have at least that to be thankful for. It's one thing leaving something open-ended for the sole reason of blatant sequel bait but doing that on top of a story that took years to complete where nothing of note, consequence or merit happened... that's just plain disrespect/disdain a writer is showing to their audience.

[ragnarok]

That depends on the nature and intent of the story that was written. For example, if a story is about superheroes - then the superhero is supposed to have the highest "importance" and focus because it's a justified conceit for that particular genre. Now whether you consider the stories in Sc2 are about anything else but a story about superheroes, is something that I'll leave you to ponder.



But it was never about superheroes. Raynor and Kerrigan's relationship was stressed too much. To me this was only supposed to be acceptable in WoL and maybe the initial part of HotS, that's it. Besides, even before HotS came out I did agree with Gradius's POV that it wasn't smart of Blizzard to have focused WoL on just one person, made it seem like no one else did anything.


I'd even go as far as considering Amon surviving as being a worse idea than the Epilogue that we eventually got because even though the epilogue was poorly conceived, felt unearnt and like a cheat, it had finality. It ended. I have at least that to be thankful for. It's one thing leaving something open-ended for the sole reason of blatant sequel bait but doing that on top of a story that took years to complete where nothing of note, consequence or merit happened... that's just plain disrespect/disdain a writer is showing to their audience.

Yes it was a disappointment in the epilogue mainly because they wanted to throw something together to explain why Kerrigan was necessary in the prophecy. In reality it never had to be, since the 1st epilogue mission revealed Ouros was the one who made it all, and he certainly could have been wrong....

[Turalyon]

But it was never about superheroes.

I know it should have been this but one can hardly tell now given how the stories in Sc2 are told and presented.


Raynor and Kerrigan's relationship was stressed too much.

Eh, if you think of Sc2 as a superhero story, a romance/love interest sub-plot ain't out of the ordinary since it helps feed into the motivation for a superhero's actions...


Yes it was a disappointment in the epilogue mainly because they wanted to throw something together to explain why Kerrigan was necessary in the prophecy. In reality it never had to be, since the 1st epilogue mission revealed Ouros was the one who made it all, and he certainly could have been wrong....

To me, what you're describing there is actually quite interesting because the "prophecy" in WoL turns out to be a self-fulfilling prophecy instigated by Ouros as a way of enacting his master plan to get Kerrigan to him so he can use her to kill Amon. But no, that's not what's mainly disappointing about it. It's disappointing because a) it undermines and sidelines the Protoss in what is supposed to be their very own story, b) it feels like a desperate and hurried attempt to tie the disconnected WoL and HotS together to LotV in order to justify the whole affair as a "connected" trilogy, c) the introduction of Ouros is like a(nother) deus ex machina who offers a cheap, convenient and neat resolution that comes out of nowhere and d) feels forced and unnatural to the extent where immersion is broken because the author's intent of wanting it to be a happy, closed ending becomes apparent.

Even despite all that, I actually still would prefer this epilogue over your suggestion of having Amon survive for another sequel though.

[ragnarok]

I know it should have been this but one can hardly tell now given how the stories in Sc2 are told and presented.



Yes, a shame given that the writers completely forgot about the events of WoL when they were writing on HotS, and so on. Hence why I still believe the whole trilogy was written based on the assumption of "No SC fan ever plays the game for the story anyway, so we can do whatever we want on that and no one will notice."


Even despite all that, I actually still would prefer this epilogue over your suggestion of having Amon survive for another sequel though.

Allow Amon to survive would mean Ouros's predictions proved false, and that his actions weren't a Deus Ex Machina moment because Amon found a way around it.

Besides, in retrospect well before LotV was out, I had actually expected Blizzard to let Amon win in the end using a Deus Ex Machina moment of his own.

[Turalyon]

Allow Amon to survive would mean Ouros's predictions proved false, and that his actions weren't a Deus Ex Machina moment because Amon found a way around it.

The prophecy is already not real (as in not being an actual vision of the future) since it is not fulfilled and will never be (if it were as shown in In Utter Darkness, there's no point in going on since it can't be averted). That's why prophecy is usually such a lame plot device to use. That LotV reveals it was all due to Ouros and that he was pretending to be Tassadar means that he probably made up the Overmind's vision as shown in In Utter Darkness as well. If something is revealed to be unreliable narration, then everything else around it would also be cast into doubt since there is no other metric to help us decide which parts are true or not anymore. Really, it was all just a ruse to dupe Z into keeping Kerrigan alive so that she can eventually come to him so that he could use her to defeat Amon. Ouros wasn't predicting anything - he was planning Amon's defeat from the beginning and that "prophecy" in WoL was part of his plan. He's a much better schemer than Amon ever was.

Also, having Amon survive his contrived defeat/death is just yet another contrivance piled on top... for the sake of making a sequel no less. Ugh! A crap ending beats never-ending crap anyday.


Besides, in retrospect well before LotV was out, I had actually expected Blizzard to let Amon win in the end using a Deus Ex Machina moment of his own.

Nah, Blizz is a business focused on mass appeal so there will never do anything that's potentially unmarketable or too edgy for their brand.

Anyways, pretty much everyone guessed how it would've ended ever since WoL was first announced - that the 3 races would team up and defeat some big bad ancient Xel'Naga-related bad guy. Heck, I remember some guy asking Blizz at some lore panel around the time it was first announced whether it was actually going to end this way, and the Blizz guys just looked at each other guiltily, not saying anything.

[ragnarok]

Also, having Amon survive his contrived defeat/death is just yet another contrivance piled on top... for the sake of making a sequel no less. Ugh! A crap ending beats never-ending crap anyday.



Nah, Blizz is a business focused on mass appeal so there will never do anything that's potentially unmarketable or too edgy for their brand.

Anyways, pretty much everyone guessed how it would've ended ever since WoL was first announced - that the 3 races would team up and defeat some big bad ancient Xel'Naga-related bad guy. Heck, I remember some guy asking Blizz at some lore panel around the time it was first announced whether it was actually going to end this way, and the Blizz guys just looked at each other guiltily, not saying anything.

Yeah I know that about the teamup, but I still didn't expect the ascension, it wasn't needed. Not to mention all the other Xel'Naga could have appeared via flashbacks, and that would have been considered enough.

As for not potentially doing something unmarketable, you should remember that BW's ending had it so that everything you did was all for nothing. Therefore, I had expected LotV to end the same way.

[Turalyon]

Yeah I know that about the teamup, but I still didn't expect the ascension, it wasn't needed.

Unexpected? Sure. Not needed? Eh.

The plot "needed" to have Amon defeated by another Xel'Naga. Whether it "needed" to be Kerrigan specifically, well, it seemed that Ouros had his eye on her since the start, so it's probably not a matter of "need" but Ouros wanting Kerrigan to be the instrument of Amon's death. Like I said, eh.


As for not potentially doing something unmarketable, you should remember that BW's ending had it so that everything you did was all for nothing. Therefore, I had expected LotV to end the same way.

There's a fundamental difference you've overlooked. You played as Zerg and followed Kerrigan's path to victory in BW and the status quo changed enormously. There is a visceral sense of accomplishment there which is marketable ("feel the power of being the bad guy") and it has value beyond just the narrative one. So you're wrong that "everything you did was for nothing" (I'm starting to think you're biased to "things working out well for the good guys is the only thing worthwhile" being what you really mean when you said "everything you did"). You might as well say it's pointless playing Sc1 or BW because the antagonists were defeated in the end and the initial status quo prior to the antagonists coming was reinstated.

In Sc2, you don't play as Amon at anytime in Sc2. So having him win in the end only has narrative value, a value that is tantamount to a "middle finger" to the audience because they'd have no control whatsoever over this outcome and implies that all the gameplay they've had up to this point was truly meaningless. Gamers don't want to feel their gameplay is a pointless exercise whilst also having that pointed out directly by the story as well.

[ragnarok]

Unexpected? Sure. Not needed? Eh.

The plot "needed" to have Amon defeated by another Xel'Naga. Whether it "needed" to be Kerrigan specifically, well, it seemed that Ouros had his eye on her since the start, so it's probably not a matter of "need" but Ouros wanting Kerrigan to be the instrument of Amon's death. Like I said, eh.




The plot needed nothing of the sort. Hell they didn't even really need to kill Amon, just have him stuck in the Void with no way to corrupt it and no way to get out, wish they had explained more about that part.


There's a fundamental difference you've overlooked. You played as Zerg and followed Kerrigan's path to victory in BW and the status quo changed enormously. There is a visceral sense of accomplishment there which is marketable ("feel the power of being the bad guy") and it has value beyond just the narrative one. So you're wrong that "everything you did was for nothing" (I'm starting to think you're biased to "things working out well for the good guys is the only thing worthwhile" being what you really mean when you said "everything you did"). You might as well say it's pointless playing Sc1 or BW because the antagonists were defeated in the end and the initial status quo prior to the antagonists coming was reinstated.


Which to me was wrong because Blizzard seemed (this is before we had any info on HotS) that they were trying to go for the redemption route, and Kerrigan's actions proved in the end the desire for revenge at any cost won out.

As for the part of playing as Amon, I know what you mean. If nothing else I always wanted to know just what he was doing the whole time, see things from his POV.

[Turalyon]

The plot needed nothing of the sort.

Sure it did. The plot of the story is about fighting some special, big bad dude. The special big bad dude is supposed to be hard to kill so it "needs" a special way to kill it. Cue this "special way" of killing it. Plot resolved.

Your path (of letting the special big bad dude just keep living when the story is about fighting this guy) just leads to an unresolved plot and an admission that the whole of Sc2 would be a waste of time - both of which would be deemed unsatisfactory to most people. Amon winning would also be an alternate but acceptable resolution to the plot but this has other consequences: it'd feel like Blizz are killing off their franchise, is at even greater risk of alienating fans and severely limits possibility of continuation without it seeming like a cashgrab (in short, not a wise business decision for Blizz to take). So yeah, regardless of subjective taste or the form this resolution took, the plot did actually "need" something to resolve itself. Like I said, a crap-ending beats never-ending crap anyday.


Which to me was wrong because Blizzard seemed (this is before we had any info on HotS) that they were trying to go for the redemption route, and Kerrigan's actions proved in the end the desire for revenge at any cost won out.

I was talking about BW Kerrigan....

Anyhoo, Sc2 has always seemed "wrong" in Blizz's insistence of protagonist-centred morality and how the writers fall into the trap of believing in that morality. You think this only happens in HotS, but it happened in WoL, too (Raynor's attacking of the Tal'darim for some money and then complaining they're giving him a hard time as if they should just give him things they possess like he's automatically entitled to them regardless is not justified even if the Tal'darim are truly fanatics or evil). The reason it feels like "mixed messages" is due to the writers wanting to impose their will on the story and wanting to interpret it for the audience (eg: everyone that disagrees with Kerrigan in HotS dies or suffers in someway and the writers want this to be seen as being good for Kerrigan because it's supposed to be some form of hero empowerment... even as it totally disregards the characters that have to suffer in order to fuel such empowerment). That you find Kerrigan's actions in HotS disagreeable is a good thing in my opinion, since you're offering an insight about yourself rather than adhering to the one view/intrepretation the writers want to steer you towards.

Sc1 never does this. Things just happen. Good/evil is decided upon by the viewer/audience. That's what's great about it - the story invites the audience member to engage it on more levels than just the basic one of enjoying the plot progression.

[ragnarok]

Sure it did. The plot of the story is about fighting some special, big bad dude. The special big bad dude is supposed to be hard to kill so it "needs" a special way to kill it. Cue this "special way" of killing it. Plot resolved.

Your path (of letting the special big bad dude just keep living when the story is about fighting this guy) just leads to an unresolved plot and an admission that the whole of Sc2 would be a waste of time - both of which would be deemed unsatisfactory to most people. Amon winning would also be an alternate but acceptable resolution to the plot but this has other consequences: it'd feel like Blizz are killing off their franchise, is at even greater risk of alienating fans and severely limits possibility of continuation without it seeming like a cashgrab (in short, not a wise business decision for Blizz to take). So yeah, regardless of subjective taste or the form this resolution took, the plot did actually "need" something to resolve itself. Like I said, a crap-ending beats never-ending crap anyday.



Yes and that was a bad thing for Amon because we hardly knew anything about him until LotV, and by then they tried to cram too much. Should have done it slowly, hence the need to let him live so we can learn more about him more gradually. That being said however, if someone never read the SC1 manual and tried to compare this to the Overmind....

[Turalyon]

Should have done it slowly, hence the need to let him live so we can learn more about him more gradually.

No, the logical conclusion is that they should have done it (talk about Amon) in the first two-thirds of the trilogy if he was supposed to be that important, not make another sequel to fix such a mistake (if it was indeed a mistake to not elucidate on him in the earlier parts).

Given the dearth of information about Amon, one can only assume that Amon really isn't that important and therefore, should be wiped away and forgotten as is eventually done so in Sc2. Good riddance to bad rubbish.

This situation with Amon is sort of like the reverse of what happened to the UED. The UED do get quite a bit of limelight in BW only to be summarily expunged, with the whole impact of their presence seemingly removed by the end of BW/start of WoL. As such, they should have had some sort of consequence of their passing rather than feeling like nothing happened (ie: Mengsk seemingly being in the same spot as he was at the start of BW as it was in the end: in power). Instead, with the UED having no lasting impact/consequence, it unfortunately makes the focus on the UED in BW somewhat redundant/pointless no matter how affecting and interesting following the story of Dugalle and Stukov was.

Comparatively, having the UED comeback seems more reasonable than it does with Amon, who had no real presence throughout Sc2 and actions didn't have any lasting consequence (the "no Khala" thing is only temporary because it only affects the current generation since new Protoss will still have nerve cords and now that Amon's dead, there's no risk anymore for using it), since the UED had a feeling of being important to the story even though they were just a conceit to provide a plot from a narrative perspective. Amon never feels important in Sc2, so having him comeback after doing nothing just so that he can do/be something just reeks of conceit/plot shenanigans.

[ragnarok]

No, the logical conclusion is that they should have done it (talk about Amon) in the first two-thirds of the trilogy if he was supposed to be that important, not make another sequel to fix such a mistake (if it was indeed a mistake to not elucidate on him in the earlier parts).

Given the dearth of information about Amon, one can only assume that Amon really isn't that important and therefore, should be wiped away and forgotten as is eventually done so in Sc2. Good riddance to bad rubbish.

This situation with Amon is sort of like the reverse of what happened to the UED. The UED do get quite a bit of limelight in BW only to be summarily expunged, with the whole impact of their presence seemingly removed by the end of BW/start of WoL. As such, they should have had some sort of consequence of their passing rather than feeling like nothing happened (ie: Mengsk seemingly being in the same spot as he was at the start of BW as it was in the end: in power). Instead, with the UED having no lasting impact/consequence, it unfortunately makes the focus on the UED in BW somewhat redundant/pointless no matter how affecting and interesting following the story of Dugalle and Stukov was.

Comparatively, having the UED comeback seems more reasonable than it does with Amon, who had no real presence throughout Sc2 and actions didn't have any lasting consequence (the "no Khala" thing is only temporary because it only affects the current generation since new Protoss will still have nerve cords and now that Amon's dead, there's no risk anymore for using it), since the UED had a feeling of being important to the story even though they were just a conceit to provide a plot from a narrative perspective. Amon never feels important in Sc2, so having him comeback after doing nothing just so that he can do/be something just reeks of conceit/plot shenanigans.

Yes I felt the same. Failing that they should have tried to explain more on Amon even before SC2 came out. Originally I had hoped this would be the case in the DT Saga, then Blizzard ruined this by saying Ulrezaj's master was never Amon to begin with.

The UED's comeback was something I had looked forward to since HotS and all that. Even before Stukov was telling Kerrigan about this, everyone had long suspected it. Shame they lost interest in the sector, at least for the time being. Thus hopefully Amon's offensive never reached Earth, so the UED will remain strong there, and we get to see them again in the future.