SC3 Plot Ideas

[Drake Clawfang]

I think a timeskip of at least 100 years, perhaps more, is acceptable to make things different enough that shaking up the peace drastically would not invalidate SC2's ending. I'm trying to think logically of what might happen to the K-sector in a century's time.

Without the threat of war and the charismatic Arcturus or Valerian, the Dominion has weakened as a government. Though it's people remain free and happy, it's heredity rulers, the Mengsk dynasty, have not held the same power their ancestors did. The Dominion now resembles the Confederacy or Earth's democracies more in structure, with de-centralized planetary governments and a ruling council headed by an Emperor Mengsk that holds a veto over their decisions, but not much direct power. Some outlying worlds and renegades resist the government's power simply because they feel confident they will not be disciplined. The Umojan Protectorate has joined the Dominion and the Kel-Morian Combine has become de-centralized, their homeworld of Moria stripmined after decades of plundering and many of their more powerful members seeking new planets to lay claims to.

The Protoss have resettled Aiur. The Nerazim remain united with them, but their nomadic nature means they spend a lot of time away from the planet, unattached to Aiur. Some newborn Protoss, still bearing their nerve cords, have opted to keep them and devote themselves to the Khala. Memories of Amon's corruption still linger in the long-lived race, and the Khalai-adherents are sometimes ostracized and viewed with suspicion by their older brethren. As a military power the Protoss have weakened: they have no enemies to fight, and some of their more battle-hungry warriors abandon the Daelaam to join with the Tal'darim. The Tal'darim, in turn, have begun to suffer ideological differences in the wake of Amon's death and this influx of new warriors that were ones their hated enemies.

The Zerg under Zagara are not the hostile aliens they once were. They keep to Char and nearby planetary systems, growing and mutating. Some Terrans and Protoss, concerned about Zagara's silence, wish to strike and eradicate the Zerg before she becomes hostile, holding her inferior leadership and intelligence from Kerrigan as proof that she will easily fall. Others wish to avoid a war and would leave Zagara to her own devices as long as she remains passive.

And it goes without saying the UED are back.

Anyone else have plot ideas for SC3?

[Gradius]

I'd rather have a timescale shift of in the thousands, where Raynor, Tassadar, and Kerrigan are legends. The zerg have been thought to be fully eradicated, but it turns out they sent Leviathans to Andromeda and have taken over most of that galaxy, with us as their next target. The Koprulu terrans have been destroyed by the zerg because they were weakened so badly in SC2. The Milky Way is then divided evenly between the Protoss and the UED, who are embroiled in a Cold War type of situation.

[Visions of Khas]

I think we should have new players altogether. Humanity will obviously fill the Terran role, perhaps descendants of the UED. The Protoss have largely grown absent, having ascended into Legend as mythical caretakers of the galaxy, assuming the role the Xel'Naga once held. A synthesis of organic-machine hybrids, descendants of the Purifers, now inhabit the "Quantity" race. The "Quality" race is assumed by Tal'Darim-Primal Zerg Hybrids, creatures assuming the Purity of Form and Essence, but limited because they lack the Essence of Eternity (Xel'Naga essence) and possess the imperialistic ideals of their forebears.

[ragnarok]

I'd rather have a timescale shift of in the thousands, where Raynor, Tassadar, and Kerrigan are legends. The zerg have been thought to be fully eradicated, but it turns out they sent Leviathans to Andromeda and have taken over most of that galaxy, with us as their next target. The Koprulu terrans have been destroyed by the zerg because they were weakened so badly in SC2. The Milky Way is then divided evenly between the Protoss and the UED, who are embroiled in a Cold War type of situation.

And how would you want to portray the UED's impression to the player?

[Turalyon]

I'm trying to think logically of what might happen to the K-sector in a century's time.

That's impossible. Given that massive status quo changes (and reversions as of Sc2) have occurred in the short span of time the games cover, the K sector would be most likely unrecognisable as even being part of the original Starcraft universe 100 years hence. Then again, I do like the far future idea though since if you go far enough, any conceivable change to the nature of the Terrans, Protoss and Zerg can be bought more readily because you know, "change over time" and all. This might be good because Sc2 clearly shows there's nothing really interesting and new left to talk about within this current era. I mean really, whats left? More Terran infighting? UED coming back again? Protoss being isolationist and have stirrings of internal strife again? Zerg being aggressive and killing stuff again? Been there, done that.

For those who like Xel'Naga stuff, I wouldn't necessarily mind a prequel about how a previous cycle of Xel'Naga came about since it's apparently happened many times before. We could have all different races made up to fulfill the "Essence" and "Form" and have a completely different story but retaining the spirit of Starcraft. Sort of like a reboot and reinvention in one and since it's almost like a new IP, we can see if it stands on it's own merit. Then again, I just realised we're talking about a sequel, so this probably doesn't count...

[KaiserStratosTygo]

My plot idea:

Have SC2 be relegated to a TV show in-universe

We start 50 years after BW.

Go.

[Sheliek]

Since infested terrans seem to be biologically (if not completely) immortal, Stukov needs to control at least a small brood like in the epilogue, or at least be active within Zagara's swarm. Why? His perspective on the UED return, and the UED's on his current state (odds are likely Stukov is still remembered as a hero of the first invasion). That could go any number of directions.

Also, if we go with Zagara being isolationist, the Primals can make for a more aggressive splinter group of zerg. They have flying strains. It can be reasonably hand-waved that they collected ventral-sac overlord or even dead leviathan essence and made their own inter-planetary transport beasts*. Of course, Niadra can be a complete wildcard as well.

Lastly, could isolated hybrid still exist, freed of Amon and completely, mindlessly purposeless without their 'higher' self? Could do for a throwaway mission mechanic. Could cross-over with a naive UED commander trying something with them.

*I wonder if primals can assimilate protoss genetics? Wings of Liberty made it clear hybridization is different from a hypothetical infested or assimilated protoss. Interesting idea, if nothing else.

[ragnarok]

My plot idea:

Have SC2 be relegated to a TV show in-universe

We start 50 years after BW.

Go.

And here I thought you just wanted the whole SC2 franchise smashed.

[KaiserStratosTygo]

And here I thought you just wanted the whole SC2 franchise smashed.

Oh I certainly do.

[ragnarok]

Oh I certainly do.

You can get that if a new generation of developers decide to rewrite SC2

[Chronoreaper]

well theres the UED, other zerg influences(that brood mother on the protoss ship), there's that immensely powerful dark archon still out there as well as the voice in the dark whop was confirmed to not be amon and still alive somewhere plus if the cycle has repeated many times before there's other universes with diverse life out there that could come into play.

[Drake Clawfang]

That's true, I forgot about Niadra and Ulrejaz. While I still hope for the latter to get a mission pack (if that over-exposed nobody Nova gets 9 missions, Ulrezaj can get at least 3), those are definitely plot threads that can be explored.

[Nissa]

They killed off Ulrezaj (sort of) in the "Dark Templar" trilogy. Bringing him back would involve even more stupid convolutions.

[Drake Clawfang]

No, he was just sealed in a crystal with Zamara.

[NikoMyCousin]

It'll take place 1000 years from SC2. It's long enough to where all of the Terran heroes are just legends and its short enough to where living Protoss Templar can play a role for the comfort of familiarity. It's also a good time frame for the hinted 4th race to start budding.

The UED will return. If it's anything like Warcraft, then I expect the Protoss to have less advances in tech than the Terrans and Zerg, which is the story arc for SC3. The UED has found a way to reverse engineer and mass produce Protoss technology and they're on their way to finally bring order to the Koprulu sector after centuries of failure.

[ragnarok]

They killed off Ulrezaj (sort of) in the "Dark Templar" trilogy. Bringing him back would involve even more stupid convolutions.

All you need is to get him out of the Khaydarin Crystal. By the time of LotV, he was still alive....

[Nissa]

No, he was just sealed in a crystal with Zamara.

I did say "sort of". Getting him out of that stupid crystal, no matter how it is done, firmly roots SC in the shallowest type of fantasy -- "it happens because it's magic, so don't question it." SC3, assuming it isn't a complete retcon of SC2 (*crosses fingers*), should at least try to go back to real science fiction. I'm fine with Ulrezaj himself, but only if the "Dark Templar" trilogy is rightfully and permanently ignored.

Honestly, I have no hope. You know the end of the Tormented episode of MST3K where they start singing songs about happy things? That's where I'm at with the franchise right now.

[Sheliek]

Brood War established crystals as magic. It's not changing now.

[Nissa]

Brood War established crystals as magic. It's not changing now.

Not really. The crystals were things that mechanically operated a temple. They have a proper, limited purpose, unlike the artifact in SC2 that can do anything at any time. The only convoluted thing about the Uraj and Khalis was why they were abandoned on Char and Braxis when they're apparently so important to a temple on Shakuras.

That doesn't mean it's not too late, but I'm still too busy singing with Tom Servo and Crow T. Robot to care.

[ragnarok]

Brood War established crystals as magic. It's not changing now.

I thought Christie Golden made that point in the DT Saga, unless you're saying she merely emphasized it further...

[Turalyon]

Not really. The crystals were things that mechanically operated a temple. They have a proper, limited purpose, unlike the artifact in SC2 that can do anything at any time.

I disagree. They (Temple crystals and artifacts) are both shameless and crappy plot devices with magical powers... it's just that their "magic" is in how they force the plot to revolve around them whilst at the same time draining the narrative of any life it could ever have. :p

[Drake Clawfang]

Let's also not forget the Khaydarin Crystals, which through the magic of "power undreamed of by the protoss" allows the Overmind to assume a physical form.

[Visions of Khas]

I'd still like to know how the Shakuras temple fit into the Xel'naga's -- or Amon's -- plans. The Xel'naga were disturbed by the development of the Khala within the Protoss. Were the zerg and protoss both only meant to wield the Void? Were either supposed to develop Khala-like power? Or did Amon create the Temple with the intent of the Khala developing and using the Temple himself somehow? Maybe it was his original plan to create a host form, but had to improvise when Shakuras was destroyed.

[Turalyon]

I'd still like to know how the Shakuras temple fit into the Xel'naga's -- or Amon's -- plans.

There's probably a prophecy on it somewhere that explained that it would kill Zerg someday or something for some vague reason. ;)


The Xel'naga were disturbed by the development of the Khala within the Protoss.

Whuh? When did that happen? The Xel'Naga were no longer around when Khas developed the thing that eventually became the Khala. If you're talking about the communal link in its base form, the Xel'Naga were never "disturbed" about it, they were excited about it and cited it as one of the best things about them. Even with the LotV retcon of Amon being the actual Xel'Naga (not the good ones, if there are even such things as good Xel'Naga given that the retcon essentially asks us to throw the manual in the bin anyway) who uplifted the Protoss, the "Khala" was something he wanted so that he could later control them not something to be "disturbed" by.


Maybe it was his original plan to create a host form, but had to improvise when Shakuras was destroyed.

You're assuming Amon/Xel'Naga knew that the Protoss were going to make a home of Shakuras before it was even going to happened? Oh, that's right, Xel'Naga can see the future... but only sometimes semi-correctly... or not even that in some cases. :confused:

[Gradius]

BW may have had magic crystals but StarCraft 2 escalated the level of science fantasy bullshit far beyond anything in SC1. Certainly, I don't find it believable that just because you have a crystal you can conjure up a supremely powerful being like Ulrezaj out of nothing like some damn genie. This isn't Aladdin.

[ragnarok]

You're assuming Amon/Xel'Naga knew that the Protoss were going to make a home of Shakuras before it was even going to happened? Oh, that's right, Xel'Naga can see the future... but only sometimes semi-correctly... or not even that in some cases. :confused:

They most they can see are TRACES of the future, and in any case it makes no difference because what Ouros projected into the material universe as the "prophecy" was so damn confusing that no one had much of an idea what they were supposed to do until it was almost too late.

[Nissa]

I disagree. They (Temple crystals and artifacts) are both shameless and crappy plot devices with magical powers... it's just that their "magic" is in how they force the plot to revolve around them whilst at the same time draining the narrative of any life it could ever have. :p

Nah, not so. The crystals are clearly there to make the Shakuras temple go blooey. They aren't shown doing anything else, or having any sort of mystical power until reunited with the temple.

Oh, and Drake, that Khaydarin crystal thing you mention is a SC2 retcon. Though to be fair, they were mystical crystals still, because even in their first appearances they served no clear purpose and were important for "some reason."

[Gradius]

The Protoss still used khaydarin crystals for all their tech. But they had a limited and defined role.

[ragnarok]

The Protoss still used khaydarin crystals for all their tech. But they had a limited and defined role.

Until Christie Golden's Dark Templar Saga books made it seem like they can do just about anything. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but it DID make the Protoss seem like space leprechauns.

[Nissa]

The Protoss still used khaydarin crystals for all their tech. But they had a limited and defined role.

Clarify that for me. Those crystals were for some reason important to the Overmind, implying that they weren't simple Protoss tech, but had some other mystic power.

[Gradius]

Clarify that for me. Those crystals were for some reason important to the Overmind, implying that they weren't simple Protoss tech, but had some other mystic power.
Fleet beacons, pylons, etc are made of khaydarin crystal. They help channel the energies of the Khala and psionic matrix. The Overmind implied the crystals could do much more though.

[Nissa]

Fleet beacons, pylons, etc are made of khaydarin crystal. They help channel the energies of the Khala and psionic matrix. The Overmind implied the crystals could do much more though.

Exactly. Mystical magical whatnots. While they didn't go full magic in SC (or BW for that matter), the potential was there. Kinda makes you wonder why they bothered with the artifact when Khaydarins could have served essentially the same narrative purpose.

[KaiserStratosTygo]

Exactly. Mystical magical whatnots. While they didn't go full magic in SC (or BW for that matter), the potential was there. Kinda makes you wonder why they bothered with the artifact when Khaydarins could have served essentially the same narrative purpose.

The Overmind's "need" for the crystals is far too vague to make anything of it, either way.

SC2 was better off going more Sci Fi with it. but that would take effort and thought, Blizzard can't do that.

[Gradius]

The Overmind needing a crystal to assimilate the Protoss doesn't even warrant/deserve an explanation. It's merely part of the setting. It's like demanding a detailed technobabble explanation for FTL anytime a character travels to another planet.

[Nissa]

The Overmind needing a crystal to assimilate the Protoss doesn't even warrant/deserve an explanation. It's merely part of the setting. It's like demanding a detailed technobabble explanation for FTL anytime a character travels to another planet.

I'm not saying it needs it, I'm saying that the Overmind's need places the crystals firmly in magic territory. If they were just a mechanical function, most likely the Zerg would care very little, or only care as a means of destroying the 'Toss.

[ragnarok]

Exactly. Mystical magical whatnots. While they didn't go full magic in SC (or BW for that matter), the potential was there. Kinda makes you wonder why they bothered with the artifact when Khaydarins could have served essentially the same narrative purpose.

Technically you COULD argue they went fully magic.

Remember the Xel'Naga temple on Shakuras? The Uraj and Khalis were carved from Khaydarin crystals and those were needed to control the temple's energies....

[Turalyon]

The crystals are clearly there to make the Shakuras temple go blooey.

Yeah, magically. ;)


I'm not saying it needs it, I'm saying that the Overmind's need places the crystals firmly in magic territory.

The Khaydarin Crystal sure is plot devicey but I'd hesitate to say that it's also magic.

[ragnarok]

The Khaydarin Crystal sure is plot devicey but I'd hesitate to say that it's also magic.

Pfffft, anything that Blizzard can't fully explain nowadays (even if the fans can do it) they'll just use the "magical powers" card.

[Nissa]

Yeah, magically. ;)[quote]

In a writer sense, no. The crystals had only one, specific function, so it's really only a cosmetic difference between the crystals and, say, nuclear power cells, or other some such small devices that could make a temple go blooey.

[quote]The Khaydarin Crystal sure is plot devicey but I'd hesitate to say that it's also magic.

Eh, they were at risk of it. And they definitely were in the "Dark Templar" series. It's all about how they're used.

[ragnarok]

[QUOTE=Turalyon;201317]Yeah, magically. ;)[quote]

In a writer sense, no. The crystals had only one, specific function, so it's really only a cosmetic difference between the crystals and, say, nuclear power cells, or other some such small devices that could make a temple go blooey.



Eh, they were at risk of it. And they definitely were in the "Dark Templar" series. It's all about how they're used.

But that was somewhat implied in SC1 anyway. Remember, the Overmind DID say within the crystals lay powers undreamed of by the Protoss. Given the way they were used in SC1 and BW and using that alone, it hinted that they could do just about anything.

[Turalyon]

In a writer sense, no. The crystals had only one, specific function, so it's really only a cosmetic difference between the crystals and, say, nuclear power cells, or other some such small devices that could make a temple go blooey.

Ok then, next time when I happen on an instance in fiction where "crystals" are used to to blow something up, I'll immediately draw a parallel to them actually being nuclear power cells and not potentially, even in the slightest way, being something magical. :p (relax, I'm just taking the piss)

[Gradius]

Ok then, next time when I happen on an instance in fiction where "crystals" are used to to blow something up, I'll immediately draw a parallel to them actually being nuclear power cells and not potentially, even in the slightest way, being something magical. :p (relax, I'm just taking the piss)
By that definition pretty much all but the hardest sci fi is magic. :P

[Visions of Khas]

Functioning as power source, method of control (Enslavers), information storage, energy manipulation, keys, ... yeah. Khaydarin crystals are totally magic plot devices.

The only thing I can think to explain this away is that, like terrazine, Khaydarin comes from another dimension or universe, and are partially organic, sentient creatures as implied by Stettman's research. They are the real Purity of Form here.

[ragnarok]

By that definition pretty much all but the hardest sci fi is magic. :P

Gradius, this is what happens all the time if you're stuck with concepts that you don't know how to fully explain.

Look at it this way: of all the sci-fi novels you've ever read, how many have not had the slightest element of fantasy to them?

[ragnarok]

Functioning as power source, method of control (Enslavers), information storage, energy manipulation, keys, ... yeah. Khaydarin crystals are totally magic plot devices.

The only thing I can think to explain this away is that, like terrazine, Khaydarin comes from another dimension or universe, and are partially organic, sentient creatures as implied by Stettman's research. They are the real Purity of Form here.

Protoss tech is already near sentient, so it'd only make sense if Xel'Naga tech is COMPLETELY sentient. But as yet, we don't know enough on them, especially since the LotV retcon made it seem like practically EVERY piece of Xel'Naga tech in the universe had actually just been Amon's experimental equipment.

[GnaReffotsirk]

Starcraft 3.

I'd open the game with a scene where we get a montage of all sc2 plot points in a flash, Raynor drops his glass, and wakes up.

He's at Joeys bar, and his hands are shaking.

Raynor: "Adjutant, are my troops ready?"

Then we cut to a scene showing the Terran sector is in a 3rd guild wars.

[TheEconomist]

We can only dream!

[Nolanstar]

The dominion collapsed after an ellection, and the new P starts making demands of the zerg for reparations, starts a war and a civil war due to Xenophobic issues, dividing Valarien and Horner. Toss get draagged in when zerg ask for help, then turn when Abathur and a Queen Executes Zagara (cause its obvious kerrigan mind controlled her).

Just gdt stuff as clusterfucked as possible where everyone has their own agenda.

[ragnarok]

Starcraft 3.

I'd open the game with a scene where we get a montage of all sc2 plot points in a flash, Raynor drops his glass, and wakes up.

He's at Joeys bar, and his hands are shaking.

Raynor: "Adjutant, are my troops ready?"

Then we cut to a scene showing the Terran sector is in a 3rd guild wars.

Pfffft, right, just make the whole SC2 matter non-canon. It's better to try to work with what we've got than do that, though then you'd probably just argue for time travel.

[Visions of Khas]

Right now, I think they should reboot the series by starting with one of the parallel cycles/universes. Well, I'd say that IF Blizzard were intent on better story telling and continuity. And if not, give us a time skip where the old cast hands off the reigns to a new generation. Perhaps Mira Han and Matt Horner have a daughter who has taken over as admiral of the Dominion fleets, which has been marginalized by an ever growing Umojan Protectorate.

Edit

I wonder... Maybe we could do both. Maybe a character from the main timeline escapes to a parallel universe. Once there, they are able to predict history because they've lived it. Up until a crucial moment, which devolves into absolute chaos because their predictions were predicated on false assumptions, thus starting a new war. For some reason I see Raynor and Kerrigan "taking turns" with the cycles, one slumbering while the other works on a new creation.

[ragnarok]

Right now, I think they should reboot the series by starting with one of the parallel cycles/universes. Well, I'd say that IF Blizzard were intent on better story telling and continuity. And if not, give us a time skip where the old cast hands off the reigns to a new generation. Perhaps Mira Han and Matt Horner have a daughter who has taken over as admiral of the Dominion fleets, which has been marginalized by an ever growing Umojan Protectorate.

Edit

I wonder... Maybe we could do both. Maybe a character from the main timeline escapes to a parallel universe. Once there, they are able to predict history because they've lived it. Up until a crucial moment, which devolves into absolute chaos because their predictions were predicated on false assumptions, thus starting a new war. For some reason I see Raynor and Kerrigan "taking turns" with the cycles, one slumbering while the other works on a new creation.

Well, with regards to time travel, we already got that with the whole Beyond Koprulu, when the prophecy was ignored, Kerrigan was killed, and most of the sector fell under Amon's control.

[Turalyon]

Pfffft, right, just make the whole SC2 matter non-canon.

It'll be fine. Sc2 retconned most of the history and some of the events of Sc1, so having Sc3 reveal that Sc2 was just Raynor's drunken dream is well within being a reasonable turn of events now.

Afterall, it was never said that the events Sc2 were not a dream. :rolleyes:

Oh, and it'd still be considered as "Sc2 actually happened". It's just that "Sc2 actually happened... in a dream" is all. Isn't perspective great? ;)

[ragnarok]

It'll be fine. Sc2 retconned most of the history and some of the events of Sc1, so having Sc3 reveal that Sc2 was just Raynor's drunken dream is well within being a reasonable turn of events now.

Afterall, it was never said that the events Sc2 were not a dream. :rolleyes:

Oh, and it'd still be considered as "Sc2 actually happened". It's just that "Sc2 actually happened... in a dream" is all. Isn't perspective great? ;)

Yes well that can work if the beginning of SC3 we see Tychus walk into the bar to tell Raynor of a proposition again. If nothing else, it would be nice to see the guy one more time...

[GnaReffotsirk]

Hey Rag, never gotten to ask you this question, do you come into the SC universe via sc2 or vanilla Starcraft? I ask, because we, who came from back in the day, had the plot points of sc and bw before sc2.

There's a difference when looking at the exposition from sc2 to sc1 and vice versa.

For one, I personally, had an idea of the theme of sc1/bw, the plot points there in, the internal conflicts, character interaction and arcs, etc.

I don't know, it's like this: you take robo cop, do a remake, and make him not mourn for his family, and not have that as the core why he cannot fully be reprogrammed.

I have to ask where you are coming from, sincerely, I want to see where you are coming from, and maybe I'll see things the way you do.

[KaiserStratosTygo]

Having SC2 be a dream WOULD BE.

[ragnarok]

Hey Rag, never gotten to ask you this question, do you come into the SC universe via sc2 or vanilla Starcraft? I ask, because we, who came from back in the day, had the plot points of sc and bw before sc2.

There's a difference when looking at the exposition from sc2 to sc1 and vice versa.

For one, I personally, had an idea of the theme of sc1/bw, the plot points there in, the internal conflicts, character interaction and arcs, etc.

I don't know, it's like this: you take robo cop, do a remake, and make him not mourn for his family, and not have that as the core why he cannot fully be reprogrammed.

I have to ask where you are coming from, sincerely, I want to see where you are coming from, and maybe I'll see things the way you do.

Well, I never got into the Robocop series. I did watch a little of old ones, but never watched the reboot and all that, and I never paid too much attention to the storyline there, so I wouldn't know what you were getting at on that one.

Now, for the SC universe, I guess one of the main problems I had with SC1 and BW was that there was a little bit TOO much morally grey areas, and too much using others for their own agendas. Now yes, we all know this happens all the time in real life, but I felt it just painted a bad picture for the characters.

It was almost like the message of the game is "The only way you can beat the beast is if you BECOME the beast." If that's true, then it makes the entire conflict pointless. After all, what good is winning the battle is you're just going to become the very thing you swore to destroy?

The betrayal part too I hated in BW because it proved everything you were hoping for (and this was before I even got really deep into the SC lore) turned out to be false, and all your sacrifices had been for nothing. And BW's ending was basically sending the message "It doesn't matter how hard you try, you'll always lose."

The combination of that, along with the critics, is one of the reason why I eventually lashed out so angrily with the whole "Then just have Amon win at the end of LotV" or "Just make the whole thing a dream."

This is a matter of morality. We all know people get used and manipulated daily, but in games we see this pushed to a much more noticeable limit. I didn't want that in SC2, where you had to actually decide if a character is good or evil (even though they're just POVs).

And that is why I come into the SC universe more on the SC2 side than the vanilla side (despite trying to look at it from both ways). Though at the same time, I didn't try to dive really deep into the SC2 lore until after WoL came out.

Look at it this way: if you knew NOTHING of the SC universe, then played SC2 BEFORE playing SC1 and BW, would you have viewed the SC2 storyline differently?

[GnaReffotsirk]

yes , i would have seen it differently. there are glaring inconsistencies within it, even when viewed in isolation, yes, but certain things would not seem ridiculous.

hey Rag, I appreciate you getting into my question. for what it`s worth, I do think you have a brilliant mind.

are you still on lore of starcraft? or did i get that right, the one podcast thing on youtube?

[ragnarok]

yes , i would have seen it differently. there are glaring inconsistencies within it, even when viewed in isolation, yes, but certain things would not seem ridiculous.

hey Rag, I appreciate you getting into my question. for what it`s worth, I do think you have a brilliant mind.

are you still on lore of starcraft? or did i get that right, the one podcast thing on youtube?

Ah yes that thing, well Doncroft and I haven't spoken to each other for months now, I don't even know just WHAT he's planning with that.

But that's just my point for SC1 and BW. In fact, in the 12 years between BW and WoL's release, I only viewed like 2-3 SC fanfics anyway, and those for the most part didn't dive too deeply into the lore.

Hell, even right after WoL's release, I didn't dive too deeply into the lore. It was only after I began writing my SC fanfiction, and looking up things on SC wiki, that I realized the lore universe wasn't as shallow as I once thought, and only THEN did I begin to look harder.

Thus I didn't really begin going that deep into the SC lore the focus had shifted to the SC2 lore instead. It was one of the reason why I asked Tura quite a bit on the SC1 manual, because it was so long since I read it.

[Turalyon]

Look at it this way: if you knew NOTHING of the SC universe, then played SC2 BEFORE playing SC1 and BW, would you have viewed the SC2 storyline differently?

This depends on what one prefers. If you just don't like gritty, morally grey stuff, then it doesn't matter when you play Sc1 since it's still more gritty and morally grey than Sc2 if you play it before or after.

Either way, some people have actually done this and still feel Sc1 tells a better story. I eventually felt the same way on another sci-fi game which also happens to have the same abbreviation of SC: Star Control. My entry into it was the latest one at the time, Star Con 3. I quite liked it at first because it was nothing I had played before and was generally quite good in all areas (as critics attested at the time). But then I got my hands on the previous one (an awesome and free HD remake of which is still available and is called The Ur-quan Masters) and I began to see why the fans of the series disliked it (so much that it's considered non-canon by the fans and even the original creators of Star Con 2!), how pointless it was and how it answered non-important but worthwhile and interesting questions about the nature of certain alien races that were better left unanswered, like it was in Star Con2 (which is partly why Star Con 2 is remembered more fondly).

Incidentally, the very rough plotline of Starcon 3 is sort of like Starcraft 2 in a way in that it's about some evil empire that we fight only to find out that they weren't really that important since there's some greater but vague universal threat that caused the disappearance of the ancient but highly advanced race (the Precursors) that came before to appear right toward the end, only for it to not make much of an appearance and then be overcome (in kind - it was "sated" in Star Con3 rather than killed/defeated) handily with teamwork. It was much worse with Star Con 3 than Starcraft 2 though because there actually wasn't even a final fight for Star Con 3.

[ragnarok]

Incidentally, the very rough plotline of Starcon 3 is sort of like Starcraft 2 in a way in that it's about some evil empire that we fight only to find out that they weren't really that important since there's some greater but vague universal threat that caused the disappearance of the ancient but highly advanced race (the Precursors) that came before to appear right toward the end, only for it to not make much of an appearance and then be overcome (in kind - it was "sated" in Star Con3 rather than killed/defeated) handily with teamwork. It was much worse with Star Con 3 than Starcraft 2 though because there actually wasn't even a final fight for Star Con 3.

Then what specifically happened at the end of Star Con 3?

[Visions of Khas]

I'd like a return to the atmosphere in StarCraft I, especially the focus on the cyberpunk undertones for the Terrans, and their general disregard for human life. It would be interesting to see Valerian Mengsk work not only against corruption within the Dominion, but against the deeply ingrained message of "every man for himself" in Terran society itself. How do you steer and moderate that kind of culture? This stress could realistically push him into extremes mirroring his father, but his own remorse and guilt would generate a terrible psychological toll on him.

[Nissa]

I'd like a return to the atmosphere in StarCraft I, especially the focus on the cyberpunk undertones for the Terrans, and their general disregard for human life. It would be interesting to see Valerian Mengsk work not only against corruption within the Dominion, but against the deeply ingrained message of "every man for himself" in Terran society itself. How do you steer and moderate that kind of culture? This stress could realistically push him into extremes mirroring his father, but his own remorse and guilt would generate a terrible psychological toll on him.

That's a good point. I'd also like to see a return on the Terran side of the cybernetic/genetic alteration stuff. While that risks being cliche, SC1 was always based on 90s sci-fi grunge, when things were more sinister and creepy. Having humans in the K Sector alter themselves (or, alternatively, the UED specifically goes further) could create a rift between the humans and the Protoss. After all, the only logical action after, well, both SCs is that these two races learn to work together better, but since this is a game, there needs to be a reason why the two oppose each other.

Honestly, I wouldn't mind if the game focused mostly on humans. I also wouldn't mind if they created a first person shooter like SC Ghost was going to be. Given the way the Zerg and Protoss are now, I'm not entirely sure what sort of story/game motivation potential either of them have.

[ragnarok]

I'd like a return to the atmosphere in StarCraft I, especially the focus on the cyberpunk undertones for the Terrans, and their general disregard for human life. It would be interesting to see Valerian Mengsk work not only against corruption within the Dominion, but against the deeply ingrained message of "every man for himself" in Terran society itself. How do you steer and moderate that kind of culture? This stress could realistically push him into extremes mirroring his father, but his own remorse and guilt would generate a terrible psychological toll on him.

Steering that kind of culture would require a period of peace. Certainly the actions from NCO and everything only make the public paranoid for the continue alien threat and everything, which easily drives the disregard for life, including human ones since "it's either you or me."





Honestly, I wouldn't mind if the game focused mostly on humans. I also wouldn't mind if they created a first person shooter like SC Ghost was going to be. Given the way the Zerg and Protoss are now, I'm not entirely sure what sort of story/game motivation potential either of them have.

You can still do that if they want to keep Nova's story going, since she is still on the Dominion's side, just not under Valerian's command. She can infiltrate the Tal'darim, we can then get to see how Alarak developed his people over the years.

[Turalyon]

Then what specifically happened at the end of Star Con 3?

The big bad empire was defeated (which was the majority of the actual opposition you faced while playing) and the existential threat (which was never really much of a threat) went away. Crisis was averted and much rejoicing (I imagine) took place.

The irony doesn't stop there because there's also some retconning (of the ending and certain alien race relations/outcomes in Star Con 2) and prophetic visions of doom for this existential threat (right at the start of the game in fact) as well.

In terms of appreciating the story within the game, I'd imagine that both Star Con 3 and Starcraft 2 would be far more enjoyable if one never plays their respective predecessor.

[ragnarok]

The big bad empire was defeated (which was the majority of the actual opposition you faced while playing) and the existential threat (which was never really much of a threat) went away. Crisis was averted and much rejoicing (I imagine) took place.

The irony doesn't stop there because there's also some retconning (of the ending and certain alien race relations/outcomes in Star Con 2) and prophetic visions of doom for this existential threat (right at the start of the game in fact) as well.

In terms of appreciating the story within the game, I'd imagine that both Star Con 3 and Starcraft 2 would be far more enjoyable if one never plays their respective predecessor.

*shrugs* It's just as I was telling Gna: I'm not as critical because I didn't dive deep into the SC lore until after WoL came out, therefore most of what I looked harder into was via SC2 lore.

[GnaReffotsirk]

From a story point of view, SC2 is told by too many heads. It wavers point to point, and doesn't really have a solid conflict at the core.

For example, rebel yell has these elements: As the Aliens continue to wage war in the Terran Sector, the Confederate government's corruption becomes more and more apparent, causing wide-spread rebellion to fester even further among the already discontented and disenfranchised Terran worlds....

There is a core dynamic occurring, driving characters and plot.

BTW, was Kerrigan ever portrayed a mass murderer in SC and or BW? Was there a time she killed civilians or was her victims military only?

[Nissa]

Let's see....she killed some civillians when she was first infested, and she wanted to figure out what the Confederates did to her mind. She killed some of Tassadar's and Zeratul's men, and Raynor's men when she was on Char. She manipulated the Protoss into fighting each other in BW, then fought the UED some and manipulated them into fighting each other, then the final Zerg missions....oh, she killed some scientists there.

In other words, Kerrigan probably didn't kill any other civilians other than scientists who were involved in projects she wanted to investigate/destroy. Probably this was more due to her needing to take control of the Zerg, rather than any mercy on her part. She probably would have killed civilians if she saw a need to. Oh, and she got Raynor and Fenix to kill people on Moria. Forgot about that for a sec.

[ragnarok]

From a story point of view, SC2 is told by too many heads. It wavers point to point, and doesn't really have a solid conflict at the core.

For example, rebel yell has these elements: As the Aliens continue to wage war in the Terran Sector, the Confederate government's corruption becomes more and more apparent, causing wide-spread rebellion to fester even further among the already discontented and disenfranchised Terran worlds....

There is a core dynamic occurring, driving characters and plot.

BTW, was Kerrigan ever portrayed a mass murderer in SC and or BW? Was there a time she killed civilians or was her victims military only?

In BW yes, but it was more due to the constant betrayals. Not so much so in SC1, her main purpose was staying on Char to hunt down Tassadar and Zeratul, so not really too much there.

[Gradius]

I'm down for a reboot of SC1. SC2 can't be made un-canon, and the original story has potential to be far more rich.

But then they'd get attacked for lack of originality and "repeating the same storylines".

[Turalyon]

For example, rebel yell has these elements: As the Aliens continue to wage war in the Terran Sector, the Confederate government's corruption becomes more and more apparent, causing wide-spread rebellion to fester even further among the already discontented and disenfranchised Terran worlds....

Not sure about "corruption" per se but rather "ineptitude". Duke is the poster-child for this. He's only "corrupt" when he's left no choice but to join Mengsk or left to die. Otherwise, he's a "by the book" loyal pawn to the Confeds.


BTW, was Kerrigan ever portrayed a mass murderer in SC and or BW? Was there a time she killed civilians or was her victims military only?

First, one has to consider whether assassins can also be called mass murderers. That she continued and chose to be an assassin in service of another person (after being freed by this person) would normally incite one to speak ill of her morality already. Second, is the differentiation between civilian and military targets sufficiently meaningful when technically she is part of a pirate/rebel/unsanctioned group that is committing crimes against the established government that everyone else recognises and adheres to as part of their normal lives (no matter how illegitimate or "evil" one may consider that government is)? If one is to exclude motivation and subjective feelings and focus on the act of killing and the number of people killed by direct action of a person, than Kerrigan is indeed a "mass-murderer" (or assassin if you think that is more politically correct/appeases your senses) even by the time Raynor first met her.

[GnaReffotsirk]

@ Turalyon

Here's my problem in specific. Kerrigan was supposedly evil for killing civilians, but I have only seen her do this in WoL. In BW, she manipulated leaders to fight a common enemy, and killed them off as they pose a threat to her power, rule, or hold, but I've never seen her do things like Stukov did in SC2.

Stukov brought hordes of zombified civilians into battle, which we could blame on Kerrigan when she attacked and infected worlds in WoL. But there was never any point in BW that I saw her intentionally attack civilians for the sake of it. There could have been civilian casualties, but I've never seen her attack a civilian population in BW like she did in WoL.

Or did I miss something?

Say we only consider intentional assaults on civilian worlds, without cause or reason, has she ever done this? Ignoring civilian casualties that might have been caught in the way, during military operations.

I ask, because it seems to me, after reviewing BW through mass recall, Kerrigan was:

1. Motivated by lack of control, or being deprived thereof, being a pawn;
2. Goal: Personal security, liberation through domination, and elimination

She could have gone far by killing fenix and Duke, but she killed them for one reason: they, like the UED, are a threat. She didn't kill Raynor, nor Mengsk. At the very beginning, it appears, that Kerrigan expects them to attack her once the UED is disposed of.

Mengsk, as she knew him, would side with anyone to preserve his power. So keeping him in check would ensure her an 'unlikely ally'. Raynor, would do anything to help out if any appears to come along, and he doesn't really pose any threat, rather some value in some way. (I haven't really delved into Raynor's role in BW).

My point is, her acts of aggression was never really directed at civilian populations, but military positions. On moria, that planet was heavily militarized. And as Fenix pointed out, he doesn't like "raids" but rather full battle. So it was more of a raid, but gameplay demanded and allowed for something else.

Or, have I missed a huge chunk of information regarding this issue?

[ragnarok]

I'm down for a reboot of SC1. SC2 can't be made un-canon, and the original story has potential to be far more rich.

But then they'd get attacked for lack of originality and "repeating the same storylines".

You can settle for the Mass Recall of that, Gradius.

[ragnarok]

@ Turalyon

Here's my problem in specific. Kerrigan was supposedly evil for killing civilians, but I have only seen her do this in WoL. In BW, she manipulated leaders to fight a common enemy, and killed them off as they pose a threat to her power, rule, or hold, but I've never seen her do things like Stukov did in SC2.

Stukov brought hordes of zombified civilians into battle, which we could blame on Kerrigan when she attacked and infected worlds in WoL. But there was never any point in BW that I saw her intentionally attack civilians for the sake of it. There could have been civilian casualties, but I've never seen her attack a civilian population in BW like she did in WoL.

Or did I miss something?


You have to remember the following, Gna:

If you went to Char first, then Kaldir, or Kaldir first and then Char (as long as Zerus comes 3rd), there's a convo between her and Izsha:

Izsha would tell Kerrigan that she's unable to sense Zeratul, Kerrigan explained that he was gone for now, and wasn't considered a threat. Izsha then commented that anything non-zerg is considered a threat.

Now, Izsha was created by Kerrigan prior to her deinfestation in SC2, as were all the broodmothers, so they were all based off her template on the original QoB. If you recall later in the game, she had ordered broodmothers to attack Dominion industrial worlds. Kerrigan did NOT mention anything about sparing civilians, so therefore the broodmothers would have interpreted this order as "Wreck the planet, kill everyone on it."

Oh I'm sure some would have escaped (like what happened in the Tarsonis invasion in SC1), but plenty would have been killed. Therefore, if nothing else, this is considered criminal negligence if Kerrigan didn't realize civilians would be killed. And this is why it's only upon the reunion with Raynor on the Moros that she finally tried to distance herself from those actions.

That being said, the reason I don't buy Gradius's argument in the past (when he pointed out back when she was under the SoK she had specifically said no one deserved to have the zerg unleashed upon them) is that there's no possible way she could have come out of the infestation years exactly the same.

That'd be like you living through years of urban warfare in your own city with enemy troops bombing, shelling, and then later rape for several years on a DAILY basis, and then pick up right where you left off prior to the war when all this has passed. It's just not going to happen. Any war history book can tell you that for people who experienced warfare, those events take MANY years to fade (and sometimes never fade).

Now, for the whole directing at civilian populations but military positions like what you just said on Moria, you can't expect there'd be NO civilians being caught in the crossfire. Sure you can try to keep it minimal, but still. As there have been those who argued that SC warfare is just like WWII in space, this is why I try to point out to the bombing campaigns in Germany by the western allies (which most history books now admit it certainly went on WAY longer than it had to). You can't exactly expect the allies after the war to be so naive and just say "We didn't know there were civilians in the cities we bombed." So it's no different here, just on a bigger scale.

[Turalyon]

For those just wanting the TLDR version: some things/acts may be justified but are not always concurrently morally justified.


Here's my problem in specific. Kerrigan was supposedly evil for killing civilians, but I have only seen her do this in WoL.

But there was never any point in BW that I saw her intentionally attack civilians for the sake of it. There could have been civilian casualties, but I've never seen her attack a civilian population in BW like she did in WoL.

There could have been civilian casualties, but I've never seen her attack a civilian population in BW like she did in WoL.

Or did I miss something?

You don't count the attack on Moria (Mission 3 The Kel-Morian Combine of The Queen of Blades campaign in BW) as being morally reprehensible? Sure, she maybe covering it up as as a "resource raid" but she also asks the Captain to infest some Terran Command Centres...:eek:

That sure looks kinda "evil" to me. And if that wasn't enough, think of what this makes Raynor out to be when he is happy to just going along with it all and being jovial with Fenix about it...


Say we only consider intentional assaults on civilian worlds, without cause or reason, has she ever done this?

You're asking for something that is technically impossible. How can something be "intentional" and yet "without cause or reason"?

All acts that are deemed "evil" have intent, cause or reason at some level. It's just that intent, cause or reason is considered wrong in some way. Besides, even if the intent is right, the act needs some consideration since there could be other alternative ways to act rather than, say, through excessive bloodshed.

I remember having a good conversation with FanaticTemplar a long time ago about assessing the morality of the Overmind's actions and how it can justifiably be considered evil to some degree by others even though it may actually be (or appear to be) amoral.


She could have gone far by killing fenix and Duke, but she killed them for one reason: they, like the UED, are a threat. She didn't kill Raynor, nor Mengsk. At the very beginning, it appears, that Kerrigan expects them to attack her once the UED is disposed of.

They are not an immediate threat and she is in a position of power over her "allies". She doesn't really need to kill them but she feels justified in doing so. That's not the same thing as saying it's the right thing to do.


My point is, her acts of aggression was never really directed at civilian populations, but military positions. On moria, that planet was heavily militarized. And as Fenix pointed out, he doesn't like "raids" but rather full battle. So it was more of a raid, but gameplay demanded and allowed for something else.

There is a case of this being considered a war-crime. She is attacking and involving a third party that is not even remotely relevant or part of the opposition she has decided to direct hostilities at. One can't just generalise and say that being part of the military excludes them from moral considerations since that sets a dangerous precedent in that all hostile actions against them can be deemed as morally justified.

[ragnarok]

They are not an immediate threat and she is in a position of power over her "allies". She doesn't really need to kill them but she feels justified in doing so. That's not the same thing as saying it's the right thing to do.




And yet she did say that Raynor and Fenix were very resourceful. This was said again in WoL when Raynor beat her to the artifact at Monlyth.

[Gradius]

There is a case of this being considered a war-crime. She is attacking and involving a third party that is not even remotely relevant or part of the opposition she has decided to direct hostilities at. One can't just generalise and say that being part of the military excludes them from moral considerations since that sets a dangerous precedent in that all hostile actions against them can be deemed as morally justified.
Moria isn't a third party. Raynor/Kerrigan/Fenix are at war with the UED. Moria is part of the UED and sold out to them, as Fenix mentions in the mission.

But yeah, infesting other humans is sort of war-crime territory, even though it still served a purpose in the war.

[Nolanstar]

Remember, that from a tactical standpoint infesting removes a soldier from the enemy, and gives you a roughly equal or better soldier. From a tactical point okay, but on civilians who won't attack it is not acceptable by most ethically.

[ragnarok]

Moria isn't a third party. Raynor/Kerrigan/Fenix are at war with the UED. Moria is part of the UED and sold out to them, as Fenix mentions in the mission.

But yeah, infesting other humans is sort of war-crime territory, even though it still served a purpose in the war.

You can call it a war crime all you want Gradius. If you can't get over the fact that she could not have come out of the whole infestation years the same person (or go back to being that person within a few days or something).....

[Turalyon]

Moria isn't a third party. Raynor/Kerrigan/Fenix are at war with the UED. Moria is part of the UED and sold out to them, as Fenix mentions in the mission.

Looking over the transcript in BW, I can't find anything about Fenix mentioning that Moria sold out or is part of the UED. All I can find where Fenix even mentions both is this line:

"It is strange that this Kel-Morian Combine continues to operate whilst the UED grips the Dominion with an iron fist".

That he finds it strange they are still operating whilst all this stuff is going one could just as well mean that the KMC are autonomous and being left alone to pursue their own agendas than it does that they are in cahoots with the UED. No-one in the game even mentions that KMC is in cahoots with the UED or the Dominion at all really.


Remember, that from a tactical standpoint infesting removes a soldier from the enemy, and gives you a roughly equal or better soldier. From a tactical point okay, but on civilians who won't attack it is not acceptable by most ethically.

This. Since Gna was asking about the morality of Kerrigans acts before BW being potentially sound, this act in BW is particularly heinous from a moral/ethical viewpoint.

Given that the KMC were not really involved in the conflict until Kerrigan made it her business to involve them at that particular time (she's the attacker) and that she essentially enslaved and robbed people of their free will solely for her own profit, I'm sure that the morality of that action would be considered evil to some degree.

[ragnarok]

This. Since Gna was asking about the morality of Kerrigans acts before BW being potentially sound, this act in BW is particularly heinous from a moral/ethical viewpoint.

Given that the KMC were not really involved in the conflict until Kerrigan made it her business to involve them at that particular time (she's the attacker) and that she essentially enslaved and robbed people of their free will solely for her own profit, I'm sure that the morality of that action would be considered evil to some degree.

You can argue that, but you have to remember that she had a point about the UED. If they won, the KMC too would have been enslaved. In that regard (had the alliance actually been a legit one), you could also say that this would have been a small sacrifice for the greater good.

[TheEconomist]

This. Since Gna was asking about the morality of Kerrigans acts before BW being potentially sound, this act in BW is particularly heinous from a human moral/ethical viewpoint.

From a Zerg viewpoint, [insert any of many possible Zerg "morale" decisions], therefore, causing there to be less of them is a morale decision.

[Gradius]

Looking over the transcript in BW, I can't find anything about Fenix mentioning that Moria sold out or is part of the UED. All I can find where Fenix even mentions both is this line:

"It is strange that this Kel-Morian Combine continues to operate whilst the UED grips the Dominion with an iron fist".

That he finds it strange they are still operating whilst all this stuff is going one could just as well mean that the KMC are autonomous and being left alone to pursue their own agendas than it does that they are in cahoots with the UED. No-one in the game even mentions that KMC is in cahoots with the UED or the Dominion at all really.

Moria was part of the Dominion after SC1, so you answered your own question with the quote. Even Stukov says "We are here to take control of the Terran Dominion and all of its outlying colonies." So after they do that, they moved on to the Overmind.


You can call it a war crime all you want Gradius. If you can't get over the fact that she could not have come out of the whole infestation years the same person (or go back to being that person within a few days or something).....
In BW, it was done as part of the war effort against the UED. In HoTS, it was against actual civilians due to cocooned colonist and ruined apartment building doodads, plus sacking all the planets irrelevant to attacking Korhal.

[Nissa]

Gradius, if you could point out what part of the game/manual/other says that Moria was part of the Dominion (preferably not SC2-era retcon) I would appreciate it.


On moria, that planet was heavily militarized. And as Fenix pointed out, he doesn't like "raids" but rather full battle. So it was more of a raid, but gameplay demanded and allowed for something else.

I still feel that this was an attack on more or less civilians. Yes, Moria is militarized, but that's like calling the US militarized -- we have military bases, but we also have lots of places that aren't military bases. The target they were going after, that is to say, the mineral resources, were more than likely not mined by military forces, but by regular people or guilds. Probably those people had been mining Moria for years, and possibly had never even left the planet before. Moria is, after all, one of the three worlds originally settled by humans in the K Sector. There would be a large civilian presence there. Probably lots of husbands and sons working the mines. Quite frankly, this is the most despicable act of BW, imo, and Fenix and Raynor's actions are indefensible. Sure, Kerrigan wanted minerals, so you can see Zerg going after Moria, but for regular people to want to kill civilians in order to make the Zerg stronger is disturbing, whether Moria was part of the Dominion or not.

- - - Updated - - -

Gradius, if you could point out what part of the game/manual/other says that Moria was part of the Dominion (preferably not SC2-era retcon) I would appreciate it.


On moria, that planet was heavily militarized. And as Fenix pointed out, he doesn't like "raids" but rather full battle. So it was more of a raid, but gameplay demanded and allowed for something else.

I still feel that this was an attack on more or less civilians. Yes, Moria is militarized, but that's like calling the US militarized -- we have military bases, but we also have lots of places that aren't military bases. The target they were going after, that is to say, the mineral resources, were more than likely not mined by military forces, but by regular people or guilds. Probably those people had been mining Moria for years, and possibly had never even left the planet before. Moria is, after all, one of the three worlds originally settled by humans in the K Sector. There would be a large civilian presence there. Probably lots of husbands and sons working the mines. Quite frankly, this is the most despicable act of BW, imo, and Fenix and Raynor's actions are indefensible. Sure, Kerrigan wanted minerals, so you can see Zerg going after Moria, but for regular people to want to kill civilians in order to make the Zerg stronger is disturbing, whether Moria was part of the Dominion or not.

[KaiserStratosTygo]

I'm pretty sure it states that the KMC was part of the dominion in one of those green-text cards.

Kerrigan is a vile terrorist from beginning to end.

but at least in SC1 it was intetionally a morally grey (at best) game instead of SC2's STARCRAFT HEROES! :D nonsense.

[ragnarok]

In BW, it was done as part of the war effort against the UED. In HoTS, it was against actual civilians due to cocooned colonist and ruined apartment building doodads, plus sacking all the planets irrelevant to attacking Korhal.

Yes well Kerrigan was probably right about the UED and all that. In HotS, you really don't know that when it comes to attacking Korhal. A fundamental rule of war is you're not supposed to underestimate your enemy. Kerrigan already did this during the Char invasion for WoL and look how that turned out.

[Gradius]

Gradius, if you could point out what part of the game/manual/other says that Moria was part of the Dominion (preferably not SC2-era retcon) I would appreciate it.
It's from the BW manual. It says that all the koprulu colonies were united under one ruler for the first time.

[ragnarok]

It's from the BW manual. It says that all the koprulu colonies were united under one ruler for the first time.

It was only during the BW times? I thought the KMC joined the Dominion at some point during the events of SC1 (can't tell which part in the timeline of the zerg or protoss campaign though)

[Turalyon]

From a Zerg viewpoint, [insert any of many possible Zerg "morale" decisions], therefore, causing there to be less of them is a morale decision.

Only humans get hung up on issues of morality/ethics. I didn't think I had to point that out specifically but thanks for doing so?


It's from the BW manual. It says that all the koprulu colonies were united under one ruler for the first time.

Gah, I forgot about this. I got thrown by your comment about Fenix mentioning Moria is a part of the Dominion and sold out to them.

Still, I consider the KMC as still being an important and distinct enough entity away from Mengsk's core Dominion holdings and authority to be worthy of moral consideration because if we generalise that all Terran worlds as being "the Dominion" (as it plainly is according to the BW manual), then every Terran is essentially "fair game" (ie: not civilian but military targets) to Kerrigan.

[TheEconomist]

Only humans get hung up on issues of morality/ethics.

Given the Kerrigan arc in discussion, it's notable. Especially since you're analyzing (I assume) the believability of the Zerg/Human/Redemption ... "story"/retcon.

Also, obligatory caveat that Protoss, also, and quite more so, get caught up on morality.

[Robear]

Also, obligatory caveat that Protoss, also, and quite more so, get caught up on morality.

Yeah, if that traitor Tassadar had gone ahead and purified Mar Sara, everything could have turned out completely different. Or if he'd vaporized Tarsonis instead of landing and fighting the Zerg on the ground, maybe Kerrigan never gets infested.

[ragnarok]

Yeah, if that traitor Tassadar had gone ahead and purified Mar Sara, everything could have turned out completely different. Or if he'd vaporized Tarsonis instead of landing and fighting the Zerg on the ground, maybe Kerrigan never gets infested.

True, but that wouldn't have changed anything for Amon. Remember what Duran said to Zeratul in Dark Origins: Kerrigan's integration into the swarm merely sped up his progress. Based on that, he would have brought his master back anyway.

[GnaReffotsirk]

I would appreciate it greatly if someone could list the things Kerrigan did in BW and prior, after her infestation, that made her evil.

I'd like to know, since I couldn't find it by playing BW. I want to know them honestly.

Also, what do you guys think about her internal motivations? Is she really murderous, how?

[ragnarok]

I would appreciate it greatly if someone could list the things Kerrigan did in BW and prior, after her infestation, that made her evil.

I'd like to know, since I couldn't find it by playing BW. I want to know them honestly.

Also, what do you guys think about her internal motivations? Is she really murderous, how?

Well for the moment, take out the events of SC1, since people could argue she was under the Overmind's spell.

Aside from killing Fenix, corrupting Raszagal and forcing Zeratul to kill her certainly sealed the deal. Killing the UED (despite that Raynor admitted she had a point about them) and planning to rule over the sector can count just fine. Remember, this is before the events of SC2. No one knew she'd gather the swarm back to Char and disappear for a few years.

This is explained in the DT Saga Twilight, where RM Dahl admitted to Selendis she would see why the Protoss hated her so much.

[Robear]

and forcing Zeratul to kill her certainly sealed the deal

Kerrigan was genuinely surprised that Zeratul did this, it wasn't her plan.

[ragnarok]

Kerrigan was genuinely surprised that Zeratul did this, it wasn't her plan.

Yes, but as Zeratul pointed out, better death than life as a slave.

And as Jake Ramsey was explaining to him in the DT Saga Twilight, Kerrigan's actions in corrupting her already killed Raszagal anyway, so therefore Zeratul wasn't responsible for her death.

It's exactly one of the reasons why LONG before Blizzard even thought of SC2, many had wondered if Zeratul would take a similar dark path and force a scenario for Kerrigan to kill Raynor as his retribution.

[DonnyZeDoof]

I think another question is whether Kerrigan is still considered evil by the end of Legacy of the Void? I mean she became an Xelnaga and defeated Amon? Is that enough to redeem herself of all the wrong that she did?

[Turalyon]

Also, obligatory caveat that Protoss, also, and quite more so, get caught up on morality.

Being a fictional creation of idealised humans by humans, of course the Protoss are going to be hung up on morality. :p


I would appreciate it greatly if someone could list the things Kerrigan did in BW and prior, after her infestation, that made her evil.

I'd like to know, since I couldn't find it by playing BW. I want to know them honestly.

The problem here is that you haven't defined your standards for what is "evil". You can define it many ways but knowingly manipulating people (even if they were dupes or "deserved it") so that they can meet her own ends and then bringing untold and unwarranted suffering on those she had "pretended" to help earlier (Raynor and Zeratul) doesn't really win her any favours. She shows apathy toward Raynor's reaction after killing Fenix and Zeratul's anguish at feeling forced to kill Raszagal. She also revels in the prospect of "toying" with these people presently in and after BW, as well. Her selfishness harms others - that is considered, by some, to be evil enough.


Also, what do you guys think about her internal motivations? Is she really murderous, how?

You don't have to be murderous in intent to be classified as evil. If you bear ill will toward others and act in a way to elevate yourself at the knowing detriment/harm of others, that's bad. If you don't care about how your actions affect others or worse, take pleasure of some kind at the detrimental effect of your actions on others, that's another layer of evil. Kerrigan in BW shows all these traits.


I think another question is whether Kerrigan is still considered evil by the end of Legacy of the Void? I mean she became an Xelnaga and defeated Amon? Is that enough to redeem herself of all the wrong that she did?

Of course, the story says so, so it must be true! :p:rolleyes:

Really, for redemption to work satisfactorily in a story, there has to be some sort of sacrifice or recompense of the person that is to be redeemed. Kerrigan has nothing of this since she steadily just keeps getting handed untold power and is forgiven by the one person who would always forgive her eventually anyway (and happens to be not dead after being "killed" near the start of HotS) such that and all she really loses, is her "looks". Then, this one and only problem is resolved (if it was even a problem to begin with) when she becomes a god that can do anything, up to and including getting the man and having powers to create life to "make up for what she did". The story of Kerrigan in Sc2 is not one of redemption, it's one of Mary Sue.

[ragnarok]

You don't have to be murderous in intent to be classified as evil. If you bear ill will toward others and act in a way to elevate yourself at the knowing detriment/harm of others, that's bad. If you don't care about how your actions affect others or worse, take pleasure of some kind at the detrimental effect of your actions on others, that's another layer of evil. Kerrigan in BW shows all these traits.


Not all of that is her fault entirely, you know that. The Confederate ghost program started it all, especially given that it was designed for ghost operatives to be nothing but automatons.


Really, for redemption to work satisfactorily in a story, there has to be some sort of sacrifice or recompense of the person that is to be redeemed. Kerrigan has nothing of this since she steadily just keeps getting handed untold power and is forgiven by the one person who would always forgive her eventually anyway (and happens to be not dead after being "killed" near the start of HotS) such that and all she really loses, is her "looks". Then, this one and only problem is resolved (if it was even a problem to begin with) when she becomes a god that can do anything, up to and including getting the man and having powers to create life to "make up for what she did". The story of Kerrigan in Sc2 is not one of redemption, it's one of Mary Sue.

You and your mary sue BS. The main problem again with her is that Kerrigan didn't understand humanity except the most cruel aspect it was capable of. This is something that takes time to understand. It doesn't occur instantly, nor for that matter in days and months. It takes many years for it to work out. If there never was an ascension, it still would have taken her years of learning from Raynor to understand this.

Besides, the whole untold power was never intended for her to use as the way she thought. That's why there's the speculation the whole ascension was never a reward in the first place.

[GnaReffotsirk]

WAIT! When Kerrigan betrayed her allies, did she like destroy Korhal and civilians there? She said to Mengsk something like, "do you really think I'd let you come into power again?"

Or was that referring to Duke, that Mengsk needs him to regain power?

[Visions of Khas]

WAIT! When Kerrigan betrayed her allies, did she like destroy Korhal and civilians there? She said to Mengsk something like, "do you really think I'd let you come into power again?" Or was that referring to Duke, that Mengsk needs him to regain power?


I think Kerrigan would have killed civilians without remorse back in those days. Most of Korhal was still a blasted wasteland back then, with some cities, as evident in Mengsk's inauguration broadcast, so I think Kerrigan just concentrated on the military encampments.

If she hadn't conducted that surprise attack, I wonder how much larger the Dominion and Protoss retaliatory fleets would have been over Char Aleph.

[ragnarok]

WAIT! When Kerrigan betrayed her allies, did she like destroy Korhal and civilians there? She said to Mengsk something like, "do you really think I'd let you come into power again?"

Or was that referring to Duke, that Mengsk needs him to regain power?

A little of both. Remember what she said in the True Colors briefing: that without Duke, Mengsk would be easy to deal with. I'm willing to bet she thought Duke was necessary for Mengsk to regain military power in a way.

[Turalyon]

Not all of that is her fault entirely, you know that. The Confederate ghost program started it all, especially given that it was designed for ghost operatives to be nothing but automatons.

Yeah, it's kinda her fault because she still chose to do those things. That she treated it like a game and delighted in others suffering just makes it worse. Having a freudian excuse does not absolve her or her responsibility nor does it prevent one from still judging correctly that she is evil.


You and your mary sue BS.

It ain't BS, it's the way the story is written. It's why the story fails because the telling of it is abysmal and contrived.

[ragnarok]

Yeah, it's kinda her fault because she still chose to do those things. That she treated it like a game and delighted in others suffering just makes it worse. Having a freudian excuse does not absolve her or her responsibility nor does it prevent one from still judging correctly that she is evil.


The lack of experience makes it hard to know better. That's mainly her problem in that she couldn't see anything to humanity except when it's at its worst

[GnaReffotsirk]

Actually, I think she sees the worst possible outcome. I take it from this angle:

That she has been abused all her life, used, and discarded. This makes her so afraid of being discarded by the other races that she knows want the Zerg dead, herself included. And be used by the New overmind.

The being used by the new overmind though is obviously a lie, as the UED, having control of the Overmind, though with difficulty, was unable to get to her even a little.

This leads me to believe the Overmind created her as a free agent. Her affinity to the Overmind was not by choice at first, but as her DNA is changed, she takes on the vicious nature of the Zerg. So while she was a free agent, she was Zerg.

Aldaris spoke about her being fully infested and irredeemable. He seems right.

Her deceitful nature would come from the innate nature taken from her humanity, her murderous nature comes from the Zerg.

What I'm saying is that she couldn't have done otherwise. She's Zerg now, fully. But then at the end, she felt an emptiness. She felt tired. Maybe there is still a part of Sarrah that survives inside of Kerrigan.

[ragnarok]

Actually, I think she sees the worst possible outcome. I take it from this angle:

That she has been abused all her life, used, and discarded. This makes her so afraid of being discarded by the other races that she knows want the Zerg dead, herself included. And be used by the New overmind.

The being used by the new overmind though is obviously a lie, as the UED, having control of the Overmind, though with difficulty, was unable to get to her even a little.

This leads me to believe the Overmind created her as a free agent. Her affinity to the Overmind was not by choice at first, but as her DNA is changed, she takes on the vicious nature of the Zerg. So while she was a free agent, she was Zerg.

Aldaris spoke about her being fully infested and irredeemable. He seems right.

Her deceitful nature would come from the innate nature taken from her humanity, her murderous nature comes from the Zerg.

What I'm saying is that she couldn't have done otherwise. She's Zerg now, fully. But then at the end, she felt an emptiness. She felt tired. Maybe there is still a part of Sarrah that survives inside of Kerrigan.

I still felt that some part of her felt it simply wasn't her problem if Dominion civilians got caught in the crossfire. I'm willing to bet Raynor told Kerrigan about the events of Media Blitz and what he did there before HotS happened.

If so, perhaps Kerrigan felt that (this is before HotS of course) Mengsk be an easy target now that the population turned on him. But after he claimed victory on Char, the population just got back behind him again, which as Kerrigan saw it, meant the Dominion population consists of nothing but mindless drones who just blindly follow everything Mengsk tells them to.

[Turalyon]

The lack of experience makes it hard to know better. That's mainly her problem in that she couldn't see anything to humanity except when it's at its worst

Having an excuse/reason for evil doesn't make it not evil. Worse, after going what she's been through, saying she didn't know what she was doing was evil makes her either stupid or insane. She is clearly neither of those.


That she has been abused all her life, used, and discarded. This makes her so afraid of being discarded by the other races that she knows want the Zerg dead, herself included.

This is also the same reason why she seeks power. Like most of who have been abused, they'll do anything to never be in a position like that ever again. This means happily being an abuser themselves if need be.


The being used by the new overmind though is obviously a lie, as the UED, having control of the Overmind, though with difficulty, was unable to get to her even a little.

Of all things, I don't think she's lying there. She fears the potential of being controlled/used again, which is why she wants the neo Overmind destroyed. The reason it hasn't controlled her yet is because the Overmind is immature (it's also presumably why it was so easily captured by the UED with drugs?) and that she was given agency to act on her own whims in the first place.


This leads me to believe the Overmind created her as a free agent. Her affinity to the Overmind was not by choice at first, but as her DNA is changed, she takes on the vicious nature of the Zerg. So while she was a free agent, she was Zerg.

The Overmind didn't create her as a free agent because it couldn't actually control her, it wanted her perspective so that it and the cerebrates could learn from her "fierce example". The potential darkness/evil was already there in Kerrigan from the get-go, it's just that circumstances allowed it to take the fore. I find that seeing Kerrigan throughout Sc1 and BW as one continuous character who always had her own agency is much more interesting. It's especially poetic in light of her being taken by the Zerg since being pure of essence (well, according to Sc1 at any rate), there is the horrifying prospect that what we see of Kerrigan after her integration into the Swarm is actually the full expression of her pure essence.

[ragnarok]

Having an excuse/reason for evil doesn't make it not evil. Worse, after going what she's been through, saying she didn't know what she was doing was evil makes her either stupid or insane. She is clearly neither of those.



Maybe not, but this is why she still has to be held responsible for criminal neglect. Regardless, I just don't think she understood anything else.

[Nissa]

The being used by the new overmind though is obviously a lie, as the UED, having control of the Overmind, though with difficulty, was unable to get to her even a little.

Gotta back Tura on this. There's no particular reason why Kerrigan would have to lie about it controlling her. She's not a "free agent," she's just someone with a wider range of choice, much like how Zasz was the cerebrate who got to be the skeptical cerebrate. Also, the Overmind couldn't control her because it was juvenile, probably.


Her deceitful nature would come from the innate nature taken from her humanity, her murderous nature comes from the Zerg.

What I'm saying is that she couldn't have done otherwise. She's Zerg now, fully. But then at the end, she felt an emptiness. She felt tired. Maybe there is still a part of Sarrah that survives inside of Kerrigan.

Honestly, this is what I saw the whole point of BW was. Kerrigan is an evil being now, but her human motivations haven't disappeared. That's why it was clear, even before SC2, that she was going to have a "redemption story," even if that redemption was simply choosing to do something right before she got killed. Or at least she was going to be useful, one way or another.

[ragnarok]

Honestly, this is what I saw the whole point of BW was. Kerrigan is an evil being now, but her human motivations haven't disappeared. That's why it was clear, even before SC2, that she was going to have a "redemption story," even if that redemption was simply choosing to do something right before she got killed. Or at least she was going to be useful, one way or another.

Only the writers didn't know how to execute it. Many had argued in the past that if they had just let us know at the beginning of HotS than Amon had already been revived, it would have made more sense for all her actions in the game

[GnaReffotsirk]

At the end of BW, I always felt Kerrigan felt empty with all that she's done. She saved the sector from the UED, yes, but she's alone, everybody hates her.

Thinking about these things would mean she retains her humanity. This was the question posed about her, and we get the answer. But it wasn't clear given the epilogue's ominious hinting that maybe there's something else out there. There's a threat, and her struggle isn't really over.

Maybe she feels the emptiness because the struggle isn't over.

Or maybe, that this ominous feeling would become her justification for having done what she just did. This perceived threat would sustain her for now, a form of rationalization, which she can use later, if said threat turns out to be actually real, to justify to herself that all she has done was for the greater good.

[Turalyon]

At the end of BW, I always felt Kerrigan felt empty with all that she's done. She saved the sector from the UED, yes, but she's alone, everybody hates her.

Thinking about these things would mean she retains her humanity. This was the question posed about her, and we get the answer. But it wasn't clear given the epilogue's ominious hinting that maybe there's something else out there. There's a threat, and her struggle isn't really over.

Maybe she feels the emptiness because the struggle isn't over.

Or maybe, that this ominous feeling would become her justification for having done what she just did. This perceived threat would sustain her for now, a form of rationalization, which she can use later, if said threat turns out to be actually real, to justify to herself that all she has done was for the greater good.

It's obvious that the ending is sequel bait to introduce another physical threat (especially when Dark Origins is included) but what I've always liked about Sc1/BW that it can be intrepreted in many ways. For example, I've always liked the psyhological explanation for why Kerrigan feel's empty/hollow as BW goes on and when she reaches its end. I like it because it's plausible even without considering that there is another actual future threat or that Dark Origins exist.

Because her damage as an abuse victim has made her rail against others and see all others as potential threats she must overcome lest she be trapped again, she's paranoid and therefore always on the look-out for threats. So even when she's surmounted all of her perceived threats in BW, it hasn't really healed the damage still there. She's tired/weary not because she's starting to have remorse, but because she's probably realising that she'll never stop looking for and reacting to perceived threats (even if they do not immediately exist yet).

Her victory is hollow because although she has "won" on an objective and material level, it's superficial since she's still stuck in the same psychological mindset she was in since the start. She hasn't really won the thing that she really needs most: freedom from her psychological torment.

[ragnarok]

At the end of BW, I always felt Kerrigan felt empty with all that she's done. She saved the sector from the UED, yes, but she's alone, everybody hates her.

Thinking about these things would mean she retains her humanity. This was the question posed about her, and we get the answer. But it wasn't clear given the epilogue's ominious hinting that maybe there's something else out there. There's a threat, and her struggle isn't really over.

Maybe she feels the emptiness because the struggle isn't over.



She felt empty because she's thinking at some point the terrans and Protoss would come back to exact their revenge. Then again, her arrogant mentality made it seem like she was untouchable, and that backfired on her just fine at the end of WoL.

[Nissa]

It's obvious that the ending is sequel bait to introduce another physical threat (especially when Dark Origins is included) but what I've always liked about Sc1/BW that it can be intrepreted in many ways. For example, I've always liked the psyhological explanation for why Kerrigan feel's empty/hollow as BW goes on and when she reaches its end. I like it because it's plausible even without considering that there is another actual future threat or that Dark Origins exist.

Because her damage as an abuse victim has made her rail against others and see all others as potential threats she must overcome lest she be trapped again, she's paranoid and therefore always on the look-out for threats. So even when she's surmounted all of her perceived threats in BW, it hasn't really healed the damage still there. She's tired/weary not because she's starting to have remorse, but because she's probably realising that she'll never stop looking for and reacting to perceived threats (even if they do not immediately exist yet).

Her victory is hollow because although she has "won" on an objective and material level, it's superficial since she's still stuck in the same psychological mindset she was in since the start. She hasn't really won the thing that she really needs most: freedom from her psychological torment.


Yeah, but it's even simpler than that. In BW, Kerrigan wasn't really fighting for anything. Sure, she has supremacy over the sector, but she also has nothing to live for. What does it matter that she's the big and bad? She has no goal, no one to fight for, and nothing she really seems to enjoy that would make life worth living. She has no friends, everyone who knows about her hates her, and she doesn't really have anyone to talk to.

That makes me think, though. How many people actually knew about Kerrigan in BW? The UED didn't find out until the end of the Terran missions, so possibly at that point she'd not appeared in Dominion/Umojan/Morian newsfeeds. Ie, they knew nothing about her, and couldn't report on her, and so the UED had no source of information about her.

[drakolobo]

IZSHA Points out that Kerrigan was preparing for the threat posed by the end of zerg in a vision, the vision of overmind. efforts of kerrigan was destined to the rebellion against amon

[ragnarok]

IZSHA Points out that Kerrigan was preparing for the threat posed by the end of zerg in a vision, the vision of overmind. efforts of kerrigan was destined to the rebellion against amon

You don't know that for sure. The BW ending only had her thinking she knew something was on the horizon. That could be interpreted in many different ways, not just Amon's threat.

[Turalyon]

Yeah, but it's even simpler than that. In BW, Kerrigan wasn't really fighting for anything. Sure, she has supremacy over the sector, but she also has nothing to live for. What does it matter that she's the big and bad? She has no goal, no one to fight for, and nothing she really seems to enjoy that would make life worth living. She has no friends, everyone who knows about her hates her, and she doesn't really have anyone to talk to.

Eh, I don't think she really cares for "friends" at that point in BW nor do I think the lack of which would prompt those hollow feelings from her.

Sure, you could say that she isn't fighting for anything "materialistic" (being reductive by including "friends" as "material" that is) but she is definitely not fighting without reason or for nothing. She's fighting to ensure that she is in control now and to never be in a position to be controlled/abused again. That's the only tangible thing she has left to pursue.

[ragnarok]

Sure, you could say that she isn't fighting for anything "materialistic" (being reductive by including "friends" as "material" that is) but she is definitely not fighting without reason or for nothing. She's fighting to ensure that she is in control now and to never be in a position to be controlled/abused again. That's the only tangible thing she has left to pursue.

Which was still stupid because she completely forgot about who she's trying to enslave.

I'm just not convinced she would have stopped later on, even if we disregard everything in SC2 with the prophecy and Amon.

[Turalyon]

Which was still stupid because she completely forgot about who she's trying to enslave.

:confused: What part of my quote are you responding to? Rather, what do you think you are replying to here? Nissa and I have said nothing about enslavement.

[GnaReffotsirk]

Rag uses induction methodology in his thinking process. Very beneficial for theorycraft, and speculative reasoning. He could have created a potential plot-point from another aspect of the lore, and combined them here to create what he sees.

It's very chaotic if he doesn't go through every point from which he took speculative freedom of, and placed that as an assumed point for another speculation in another subject.

I wish rag would reveal everything and not be too cryptic, and maybe, we can be quick about discussing what is acceptable or not.

[Nissa]

Eh, I don't think she really cares for "friends" at that point in BW nor do I think the lack of which would prompt those hollow feelings from her.

Sure, you could say that she isn't fighting for anything "materialistic" (being reductive by including "friends" as "material" that is) but she is definitely not fighting without reason or for nothing. She's fighting to ensure that she is in control now and to never be in a position to be controlled/abused again. That's the only tangible thing she has left to pursue.

Well, yeah, but it's also an empty goal. She's basically attained that in BW, and though probably she doesn't have the resources to attack immediately (assuming she wants to wipe out the Toss/Terrans), she does have lots of time to think. It is heavily implied that Kerrigan is emotionally vulnerable during the Zerg missions, and heavily implied that she's beginning to understand what exactly she has done. Given this and her time to think, she's going to realize, to a certain degree, that her life is hollow. Sure, she doesn't want to be hurt, but that's not a goal now, that's merely her state of being. And given her last interaction with Raynor, she's finally in a place to understand what she's become.

[ragnarok]

Rag uses induction methodology in his thinking process. Very beneficial for theorycraft, and speculative reasoning. He could have created a potential plot-point from another aspect of the lore, and combined them here to create what he sees.

It's very chaotic if he doesn't go through every point from which he took speculative freedom of, and placed that as an assumed point for another speculation in another subject.

I wish rag would reveal everything and not be too cryptic, and maybe, we can be quick about discussing what is acceptable or not.

Yes and the theorycrafting was shot down by others in the past saying that it's all BS anyway.

[Turalyon]

Rag uses induction methodology in his thinking process. Very beneficial for theorycraft, and speculative reasoning. He could have created a potential plot-point from another aspect of the lore, and combined them here to create what he sees.

It's very chaotic if he doesn't go through every point from which he took speculative freedom of, and placed that as an assumed point for another speculation in another subject.

I wish rag would reveal everything and not be too cryptic, and maybe, we can be quick about discussing what is acceptable or not.

It's a pity that this also leads him to make presumptions of other peoples points which he often assumes to be their "real" point and then carries on as if everyone is on his same wavelength/is supposed to understand where he's coming from.


Well, yeah, but it's also an empty goal. She's basically attained that in BW, and though probably she doesn't have the resources to attack immediately (assuming she wants to wipe out the Toss/Terrans), she does have lots of time to think.

I know it's an "empty goal", but Kerrigan isn't self-aware enough at the time to know it herself. She only comes to a marginal understanding of it throughout BW and possibly, a full realisation by BW's end. This arc is the saving grace for what is otherwise just a story about some OP ragedemon girl roflstomping everyone and winning for all time.


It is heavily implied that Kerrigan is emotionally vulnerable during the Zerg missions

Kerrigan was always "emotional". Her teenage tantrum in BW alone is a testament to that.

[ragnarok]

Kerrigan was always "emotional". Her teenage tantrum in BW alone is a testament to that.

If only Blizzard didn't stress this WAY too heavily in SC2.

[Undeadprotoss]

This might seem pessimistic, but I don't know if Starcraft can be allowed to take place in such a distant future, in which both the Protoss and Humanity would be ludicrously technologically advanced. I say that because the original StarCraft, and I would say most good Starcraft fiction has much to do with the concept of "Used Future"(http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UsedFuture)

Remember the Brood War opening cinematic? Where you had the marine get his ass saved by the older marshal....only to be abandoned by the Alexsander overhead. That kind of grittiness, ESPECIALLY with the Terrans, is something that can't really be replicated in a high-tech setting (unless it followed the course of something like Warhammer 40k).

That's one of the biggest problems I have with SC2 now actually, the cartoonish art-style dosen't at all communicate the detailed, naturalistic worldbuilding that surronds all of the races. The Zealot should be terrifying, a badass, psionic warrior, he looks soulless in SC2 now. Not to mention a lot of the unneccessary detail that goes on high-tech units in Blizzard games nowadays, take the SC2 hydralisk vs the SC1 hydralisk, or the Thor vs any SC1 terran unit. There's so much stuff going on that the minimalist design which leaves much up to an individual viewer's imagination is all but evaporated.

[ragnarok]

That's one of the biggest problems I have with SC2 now actually, the cartoonish art-style dosen't at all communicate the detailed, naturalistic worldbuilding that surronds all of the races. The Zealot should be terrifying, a badass, psionic warrior, he looks soulless in SC2 now. Not to mention a lot of the unneccessary detail that goes on high-tech units in Blizzard games nowadays, take the SC2 hydralisk vs the SC1 hydralisk, or the Thor vs any SC1 terran unit. There's so much stuff going on that the minimalist design which leaves much up to an individual viewer's imagination is all but evaporated.

In the case of the Zealot being soulless I felt it was fine because the Protoss DID lose Aiur. The whole "fearless swagger" from the Zealot therefore would disappear.

[GnaReffotsirk]

Zealots are basically Leonidas and the 300. They live for battle. I wonder though if the zealots we see in sc2 were of the Judicator armada. Maybe they're recruits, or some new generation who were not as hard core as Khaldaris.

Speculation aside, there's something to be said about unit responses in-game. They don't seem to be as passionate as they were in SC/BW. It's like the voice actors are tired, or dispassionate. There's no character, no voice.

[KaiserStratosTygo]

This might seem pessimistic, but I don't know if Starcraft can be allowed to take place in such a distant future, in which both the Protoss and Humanity would be ludicrously technologically advanced. I say that because the original StarCraft, and I would say most good Starcraft fiction has much to do with the concept of "Used Future"(http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UsedFuture)

Remember the Brood War opening cinematic? Where you had the marine get his ass saved by the older marshal....only to be abandoned by the Alexsander overhead. That kind of grittiness, ESPECIALLY with the Terrans, is something that can't really be replicated in a high-tech setting (unless it followed the course of something like Warhammer 40k).

That's one of the biggest problems I have with SC2 now actually, the cartoonish art-style dosen't at all communicate the detailed, naturalistic worldbuilding that surronds all of the races. The Zealot should be terrifying, a badass, psionic warrior, he looks soulless in SC2 now. Not to mention a lot of the unneccessary detail that goes on high-tech units in Blizzard games nowadays, take the SC2 hydralisk vs the SC1 hydralisk, or the Thor vs any SC1 terran unit. There's so much stuff going on that the minimalist design which leaves much up to an individual viewer's imagination is all but evaporated.

I'm glad more and more people are realizing the inherent design problems with SC2, especially the fact that everything has too much "kibble"

[Undeadprotoss]

I'm glad more and more people are realizing the inherent design problems with SC2, especially the fact that everything has too much "kibble"

Kibble was the exact word that came to my mind when I was writing that post. It's absolutely true, especially with the overly generous use of Khadaryian crystals on Protoss armor. I think a lot of the devs have tried to simplify the Blizzard art style to "hyper-realistic, hyper-detailed".

Of course the problem is, detailed dosen't necessarily mean better. Putting excessive jewelry and egyptian-style equipment/architecture to the Protoss draws them further and further from their roots and closer to "space elves". For god's sakes this is a race that has Tribes that's a dead giveaway that they should be as far away from that archetype as possible.

I remember a really good quote by Dustin Browder that really summed up how he and other devs viewed art, I'll try to see if I can find it.

[Undeadprotoss]

Zealots are basically Leonidas and the 300. They live for battle. I wonder though if the zealots we see in sc2 were of the Judicator armada. Maybe they're recruits, or some new generation who were not as hard core as Khaldaris.

Speculation aside, there's something to be said about unit responses in-game. They don't seem to be as passionate as they were in SC/BW. It's like the voice actors are tired, or dispassionate. There's no character, no voice.

I think a lot of world-building was done soley by fleshing out the characters in the unit responses, believe it or not. The Protoss had deep, echo and reverb effects built into their voices, that made them sound distinct. Terrans were actually much less like "space cowboys" in the original then they are now, and the zerg sounded much more bestial, and malicious.

That's the key for the zerg that often gets passed over, they weren't feral, they had a mission and they were clearly evil. The Overmind and the SC1/Brood War soundtrack were excellent in delivering that effect. Nowadays, the zerg don't really seem intelligent, they don't have agency or character. Things that, despite being very subtle, greatly impact the connotation we have with the Zerg and their armies.

Here's a great video comparing SC1 voices with SC2 ones: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9fCQAyu-lc

[ragnarok]

Speculation aside, there's something to be said about unit responses in-game. They don't seem to be as passionate as they were in SC/BW. It's like the voice actors are tired, or dispassionate. There's no character, no voice.

Oh that. I felt that was due to BW's ending, which made it seem like all your sacrifices had been for nothing.

[vIsitor]

I think the Kel-Morian Combine and Umojan Protectorate need to have a larger role. Their existence was established right at the beginning in the SC1 manual as the two other major Terran powers in the sector other alongside the Confederacy, but aside from the occasional cameo for the most part they're just sorta there.

You could have an entire campaign where the KMC and Umoja are fighting over something while everyone else sits on the sidelines for a change.

[Nissa]

I always imagined that the Umojans and the KMC are too smart for that. They just let the Dominion and UED duke it out, and then eyeroll as all Mengsk's activities inevitably fall through.

[vIsitor]

I'd say that the KMC is plenty greedy enough to do something stupid; it's just that they're held down by authorial fiat.

Consider: the Dominion was built from the ashes of the Confederacy, conquered by the UED, it's rag-tag remnants smashed at the Omega platform, smashed again in HotS, and smashed again in LotV. Somehow, they're still top dog, while the KMC apparently hasn't recovered from the Guild Wars (!) despite sitting on the single richest resource node in the sector.

[Visions of Khas]

Large portions of the KMC were annexed by the Confederacy after the end of the Guild Wars. There were probably political and corporate negotiations that essentially castrated the KMC's ability to make war. Of course, the high number of pirates in their space probably means that either the KMC is still reeling from those political agreements, or they're paying pirates as corsairs, raiding Confederate and Dominion vessels on contract.

[ragnarok]

I always imagined that the Umojans and the KMC are too smart for that. They just let the Dominion and UED duke it out, and then eyeroll as all Mengsk's activities inevitably fall through.

For the Umojans yes, the KMC it's a bit harder since they've barely gotten any mention for a VERY long time, we don't really know what's going on with their side right now.

[GnaReffotsirk]

It is possible that the KMC becomes a kind of shadow government, controlling things behind the veil of chaos. Like a rich country mingling with others, funding things here and there.

The Dominion would be the US, and KMC the Saudi.

[ragnarok]

It is possible that the KMC becomes a kind of shadow government, controlling things behind the veil of chaos. Like a rich country mingling with others, funding things here and there.

The Dominion would be the US, and KMC the Saudi.

It's still possible given the lack of lore we have for the KMC, Blizzard just doesn't like to comment on them.

[KaiserStratosTygo]

Except unlike the US the ominon should have no power, basically like a third word hell hole.

[ragnarok]

Except unlike the US the ominon should have no power, basically like a third word hell hole.

Maybe for a while, but eventually you'd want things to change after enough time, don't keep it indefinite