Could the Hybrid Production Have Been Around Way Longer Than We All Thought

[ragnarok]

DarthYam, as we talked over, I will now put my theory on this. Due to the contradiction and retcon problems between SC1 and SC2's lore, I'll try to tie them together as best I can.

In the beginning, when Amon decided to make a master race via the hybrids, it was for the sake of mixing the Zerg and Protoss together. His uplifting actions on Aiur are proof of this, but as Rohana had pointed out, the Firstborn grew beyond his control. Despite being forced to leave Aiur, Amon still considered his actions with the Protoss a success in the future. By around 500 BC, when Khas rediscovered the Khala link in the Xel'Naga Caverns, thus marking an end to the Aeon of Strife, Amon and his followers were still at Zerus, where they were confronted by the regular Xel'Naga. Despite his work not being finished on the Zerg, he unleashed the swarm to kill them off. Amon himself was defeated however, and forced back into the Void, where he remained for the next 3000 years until the events of SC2 finally set him free again.

Many had asked: why was Ouros allowed to live? If Amon was going to be "revived" anyway, why didn't Duran just kill Kerrigan to ensure the key to stopping him would be lost?

My theory on that is the following:

The regular Xel'Naga knew all along that destroying Amon's physical body would not kill him, but merely force him back into the Void. They knew that being forced back there meant nothing, as Amon could just return to the material universe. Therefore, when Amon was forced back into the Void, they decided to imprison him in a place where the Void energies would slowly kill him. Amon had Ouros captured in the hopes to drain his essence in order to break out of that prison, but Ouros and the regular Xel'Naga already thought of that, and ensured that the prison Amon was put in was a place he couldn't escape merely by draining the essence of other Xel'Naga.

The result of this was that Amon decided to do the next best thing: draining Ouros's essence as a source of life energy. It won't set him free from the prison, but it would keep him alive. However, Amon and Duran both knew this was only a temporary solution, since Ouros's essence could not last forever. This would be consistent with what he said to Kerrigan in "The Essence of Eternity" mission of "May the last of my essence give you the power you need."

If so, then it means by the time of SC1, the situation had gotten desperate. Recall back in HotS where Kerrigan and Stukov were discussing about the hybrid. Kerrigan theorized that the hybrid collect psionic energy, and Duran must use that psionic energy to help his master. The war between the Zerg and the Protoss was to do just that, as the psionic energy released from the war would be collected by the hybrids, and eventually Duran would stockpile enough to have what he needs. Both concluded that when Raynor blasted her with the artifact at the end of WoL to deinfest her, Duran used the psionic energy she possessed and transferred it to Amon. This would then be consistent with what Duran was telling Zeratul in "Dark Origins," that Kerrigan's integration to the swarm had sped up his progress.

In reality however, it wasn't about speeding up the progress at all. Rather, it was a race against the clock. Likely what happened was that after 3000 years of draining Ouros's essence, the amount still left in Ouros was no longer sufficient to keep Amon alive much longer. However, he was still stuck in the prison that the Xel'Naga put him in, with no way to break out without sufficient psionic energy. To make matters worse, the war between the Zerg and the Protoss hasn't been in full swing for very long. Remember, according to the SC1 lore, the swarm set course for the Koprulu Sector in 2439, and although there was some encounters with the Protoss along the way, it was relatively rare between the years 2439 and 2499.

The dilemma facing Duran, therefore, was simple: the psionic energy he needed to help his master simply wasn't pouring in fast enough. Therefore, Duran must have realized that at such a rate, it would take decades (or even longer) before he would have enough stockpiled psionic energy necessary to free Amon, and by then it'll be too late for his master because Ouros's essence was mostly gone, and the prison Amon was stuck in would kill him. Clearly, in Duran's eyes, a different strategy was needed.

That would then explain why Duran let Kerrigan live despite the possible threat she could pose: he needed her psionic strength to grow in the years after BW so that once her power was drained, Amon would still be alive, and have what he needed to free himself from the prison.

But others may argue: if Amon needed the psionic energy to pour in faster, why the hell didn't he just tell the Overmind the location of Aiur? An attack on the Protoss homeworld would certainly have caused plenty of psionic energy to be released, and surely that would have helped him greatly.

Here's a possible theory: When Amon created the Overmind, he created it so that the Overmind would only respond to his commands. The Overmind would not respond or listen to anyone else, not even his followers, including Duran. Failing that, perhaps he did plan for the Overmind to listen to his followers, but he hadn't gotten to that point yet.

The bottom line is this: when the regular Xel'Naga confronted him and his followers at Zerus, the Overmind at that point in time had only been designed to obey his orders, and no one else's. Furthermore, at that point in time, because his work on the Zerg wasn't yet finished, Amon hadn't told the Overmind the location of Aiur. As a result, when he was forced back into the Void, the communications link he had with the Overmind got severed, and the Overmind never knew anything more than just a vague idea of where Aiur might be. This would then be consistent with the events of SC1, and why only after Zeratul killed Zasz did the Overmind finally discover the exact location of Aiur.

The problem facing Duran, however, was that he couldn't have known that. After all, the coming to Char wasn't the Protoss did simply for the hell of it. It was due to Kerrigan's psionic enmanations from within the chrysalis that had drawn Tassadar and Zeratul to Char, as explained in the events of SC1. When they first arrived on the the planet, they didn't even know this was the base of operations for the swarm within the Korpulu Sector. Furthermore, since Khala energies were useless against Cerebrates (as shown in SC1 ep3), 'killing' a Cerebrate in such a way would not have allowed any Protoss mind to touch that with the Overmind's. The bottom line was that had Zeratul not been drawn to Char, Zasz would not have been killed, and the Overmind wouldn't have known the location of Aiur.

Thus the problem Duran faced by the time of SC1 was the following: how could he have known Kerrigan was even going to get infested in the first place? And therefore, how could he have known about Zeratul being drawn to Char, the killing of Zasz, and the mind touch with the Overmind which would have finally allowed the swarm to locate Aiur?

To me, it seems like during those 3000 years between when Amon was imprisoned within the Void and when the events of SC1 happened, Duran would have needed to proceed under the assumption that the Overmind was not going to be able to locate Aiur in time in order to take the fight to the Protoss in order for him to get enough psionic energy stockpiled in order to help Amon.

Therefore, we must look at the quote Duran said in the "Into the Void" mission of "The swarm had one purpose: the assimilate the Protoss and create the hybrid. Now you are no longer needed." This sentence is true, but Duran failed to mention is the timing factor. If the hybrids could not be created quickly enough, then it'll all be for nothing because the prison Amon was stuck in would kill him.

Let us now go back to "Dark Origins," along with what we know from LotV: it would seem that once the 2nd Overmind was killed and control of the swarm lost to Kerrigan, Duran simply switched production methods: instead of using the swarm to assimilate the Protoss to create hybrids, he decided instead to use terran tech to breed them instead. We saw that back in "Dark Origins," and this was further explained upon in "Templar's Charge," where Karax confirmed that it was via the Moebius production facility at Revascar that Amon's hybrid armies are born.

But once again, the timing plays a critical factor. After all, how could have Duran predicted exactly when the Overmind would finally know the location of Aiur? For all he knew, it could have been thousands of years after the events of SC1 and SC2 before the Overmind finally found out, and by then Amon would have been long dead. Do not forget, the psionic energy to release Amon from his prison could not have come from the swarm itself, since according to the SC1 manual, the Zerg themselves didn't have too much psionic powers (prior to Kerrigan becoming part of the swarm).

Therefore, it would have been vital to take the psionic energies of another species in order to help Amon. Since the terran race was still in its infancy (this is true even by the time of LotV as the average terran had no psionic abilities at all), Duran knew it would have been vital to take the psionic energies from the Protoss instead. But if the Overmind could not locate Aiur quickly enough, then Duran would have deemed it necessary to find another way drain the Firstborn's psionics.

If that's true, it would only make sense that Duran would have begun the hybrid production via terran tech (or any non-Zerg assimilation method) long before the events of SC1 happened. It would be the only way to help his master, after all...

[TheEconomist]

If I can make jokes, I can also give compliments. This looks like a well thought out, conversation starting topic. Good job.


Although I'm sure someone will quote chapter, section, article, and verse of the lore to destroy it, but that happens to the best of us.

[ragnarok]

If I can make jokes, I can also give compliments. This looks like a well thought out, conversation starting topic. Good job.


Although I'm sure someone will quote chapter, section, article, and verse of the lore to destroy it, but that happens to the best of us.

I'm merely trying to make the most of the SC1 and SC2 lore and try to put them together WITHOUT contradiction. Sure we all knew SC2 had inconsistencies, but this is no different than what I did back on the battlenet forums, try to see what Blizzard was thinking.

Granted more than likely they just weren't thinking AT ALL, but still...

[Gradius]

Although I'm sure someone will quote chapter, section, article, and verse of the lore to destroy it, but that happens to the best of us.
Dang, you know us too well! :3

1) How do Hybrids collect energy from people having a battle? Kerrigan was supposed to be a special circumstance because she was hit with the artifact.
2) Wouldn't that same energy from random battles be way more than a single person like Kerrigan, therefore invalidating your entire "That would then explain why Duran let Kerrigan live despite the possible threat she could pose" paragraph? Don't tell me Kerrigan has more psionic power than thousands of beings. Controlling them seems to be relatively easy. Alan Schezar used random ghosts to do it.
3) Amon ordered the Overmind to attack the protoss anyway, so Amon should have given him the location of Aiur anyway from the start.
4) Duran could have given the Overmind the location of Aiur easily, which pretty much invalidates the 3000 years of waiting.
5) Why would Amon's prison kill him when he seems to be the very essence of the Void and controls every aspect of it? Those void crystals pretty much ensure that he thrives in that environment. It took a hell of alot to destroy them all which only THEN made him vulnerable to Kerrigan.
6) "But if the Overmind could not locate Aiur quickly enough, then Duran would have deemed it necessary to find another way drain the Firstborn's psionics." - or he could just tell him where it is.
7) "If that's true, it would only make sense that Duran would have begun the hybrid production via terran tech (or any non-Zerg assimilation method) long before the events of SC1 happened." - I don't see how you jumped to that conclusion when even you've repeated that timing is critical and therefore Duran did not even know about the terrans at the time, who lived halfway across the galaxy.
8) None of this actually explains why Amon didn't just combine the Tal'Darim Protoss and Zerg when he had access to both of them at the same time.

[ragnarok]

Dang, you know us too well! :3

1) How do Hybrids collect energy from people having a battle? Kerrigan was supposed to be a special circumstance because she was hit with the artifact.
2) Wouldn't that same energy from random battles be way more than a single person like Kerrigan, therefore invalidating your entire "That would then explain why Duran let Kerrigan live despite the possible threat she could pose" paragraph? Don't tell me Kerrigan has more psionic power than thousands of beings. Controlling them seems to be relatively easy. Alan Schezar used random ghosts to do it.
3) Amon ordered the Overmind to attack the protoss anyway, so Amon should have given him the location of Aiur anyway from the start.
4) Duran could have given the Overmind the location of Aiur easily, which pretty much invalidates the 3000 years of waiting.
5) Why would Amon's prison kill him when he seems to be the very essence of the Void and controls every aspect of it? Those void crystals pretty much ensure that he thrives in that environment. It took a hell of alot to destroy them all which only THEN made him vulnerable to Kerrigan.
6) "But if the Overmind could not locate Aiur quickly enough, then Duran would have deemed it necessary to find another way drain the Firstborn's psionics." - or he could just tell him where it is.
7) "If that's true, it would only make sense that Duran would have begun the hybrid production via terran tech (or any non-Zerg assimilation method) long before the events of SC1 happened." - I don't see how you jumped to that conclusion when even you've repeated that timing is critical and therefore Duran did not even know about the terrans at the time, who lived halfway across the galaxy.
8) None of this actually explains why Amon didn't just combine the Tal'Darim Protoss and Zerg when he had access to both of them at the same time.

For point 4, this is exactly what I'm getting at: if the Overmind at that time was not fully developed, perhaps it was only meant to respond to Amon's orders. It'd listen to no one else, not even Duran

For point 5, it's harder to tell because we don't know enough about the Void. And therefore, we don't really know WHAT kind of a prison the Xel'Naga put him in. As for him being one with the Void, that's BS by Ouros because if that's true, the only way to kill him would be to destroy the whole of the Void dimension, which I doubt happened at the end of the epilogue.

Point 6 is still the same, Gradius. It's possible the Overmind at that time was only meant to listen to Amon, not Duran.

Point 7 this is why I said NON-assimilation method. It doesn't have to be via the terrans, just not the original way.

For point 8, the Tal'darim are easy, but from what I got out of LotV, it appears that most of the Tal'darim didn't know much about the Zerg. This was shown in the convo between Vorazun and Alarak at the beginning of "Templar's Return."

Back to point 3, once again Gradius, you don't seem to see that Amon didn't think the regular Xel'Naga would confront him at Zerus. It's possible his plan was to finish binding the Zerg to the Overmind, and THEN tell the Overmind about Aiur. But the regular Xel'Naga confronted and defeated him there before that could happen.

I get what you mean from point 2, which makes me wonder if these energies could only be collected by hybrids or something. If so, it'd mean that the hybrid army (made by terran tech) still wasn't ready by the time of 2500. It'd also mean that the 1st hybrid we saw in "Dark Origins" could have just been a new production method by Duran. In other words, maybe he did try to use terran tech to build hybrids, but in Dark Origins he used a different way to do it as the previous versions are only meant to be as soldiers, not energy collectors.

[Visions of Khas]

I'm not saying I agree with this theory; but it's said the Overmind severed its psychic connection to the Xel'Naga. Perhaps Amon was in the middle of programming the Overmind when this took place, perhaps explaining some seeming inconsistancies -- and preventing Amon fro. alerting the Overmind of Aiur's location after ir assimilated the Gargantis proximae.

[ragnarok]

I'm not saying I agree with this theory; but it's said the Overmind severed its psychic connection to the Xel'Naga. Perhaps Amon was in the middle of programming the Overmind when this took place, perhaps explaining some seeming inconsistancies -- and preventing Amon fro. alerting the Overmind of Aiur's location after ir assimilated the Gargantis proximae.

That's an inconsistency with the lores. What I wrote above is to try to use the SC2 lore to make some sense out of SC1.

It'd be pointless for the Overmind to sever the connection to the Xel'Naga that way because Amon created him. If the Overmind cut the connection, he'd be able to counter the order Amon gave him to kill the Protoss, and that clearly didn't happen.

[Sheliek]

Giving this thread a read in the morning, but I wanna say this now since I won't remember: I'm surprised and pleased this forum has become more active again since LotV was released. For a while last year, it was almost as dead as Blizzforums just before it went down (RIP; wanted to go through it a month ago :( ).

[ragnarok]

Giving this thread a read in the morning, but I wanna say this now since I won't remember: I'm surprised and pleased this forum has become more active again since LotV was released. For a while last year, it was almost as dead as Blizzforums just before it went down (RIP; wanted to go through it a month ago :( ).

It'll only be active for a little while.

[Gradius]

Giving this thread a read in the morning, but I wanna say this now since I won't remember: I'm surprised and pleased this forum has become more active again since LotV was released. For a while last year, it was almost as dead as Blizzforums just before it went down (RIP; wanted to go through it a month ago :( ).
It's pretty much a refuge from all the trolls/morons on battle.net. I can't really handle that place anymore.

[Sheliek]

It's fun there if you like that kind of humour. Anyway, back on topic, reading OP now.

[ragnarok]

Anyways Gradius, with your comment about the Tal'darim and why Amon didn't just use that, here's another possibility:

First off, remember I'm using the SC2 lore to try to get some sense of the SC1 lore, so do not just say that because the SC2 lore is so shitty, it doesn't count as anything. Not all of us believe that.

Now, recall the regular Xel'Naga confronted Amon at Zerus. By then, his work on the Zerg wasn't finished yet. Therefore, for all we know, at that point in time, Amon didn't even know if Zerg and Protoss DNA could be combined to create the hybrid at all. On the Protoss aspect he probably felt it worked because despite the Firstborn growing beyond their control, Amon still considered them a success to his plans. The Zerg are harder to say because the work was incomplete. Now yes, the SC1 manual did say the Xel'Naga felt the Zerg species' performance meant they accomplished their goal, but now that SC2 has stated this whole time was actually just Amon and his followers, it could mean something entirely different.

Therefore, it's possible that Amon didn't know if Zerg DNA would work with Protoss DNA for hybridization. Given that his work on the Zerg wasn't finished, it seems highly unlikely that any hybrids could have existed before the regular Xel'Naga confronted him at Zerus. If that's true, then the very first hybrid would have been created by Duran (following Amon's orders) sometime during the 3000 years after he was banished into the Void, but before the events of SC1.

Furthermore, I don't think Ma'lash ever told the Tal'darim any specific details on just how they'd ascend to become hybrid. However fanatical, the Tal'darim aren't completely stupid. Surely even those who had never once encountered the Zerg would have seen the hybrids had elements of a non-Protoss race to them. For those who believed Ma'lash, perhaps they could have felt Amon would eventually choose them to merge with an alien race to become the hybrid or something like that. Now yes, this would go in Amon's favor, but it's possible that at that point in time, he didn't want to lose the Tal'darim's loyalty.

Remember, we know the regular Xel'Naga banished Amon back into the Void. But it wasn't explained if he had still seen every possible event that was happening while he was in there. If the answer is no, perhaps for the next 3000 years, Amon never knew that Khas rediscovered the Khala which would allow him to bend the Protoss to his will, and he only found out about this only after being released from the Void.

[Gradius]

For point 4, this is exactly what I'm getting at: if the Overmind at that time was not fully developed, perhaps it was only meant to respond to Amon's orders. It'd listen to no one else, not even Duran
That has nothing to do with what I said. It doesn't have to listen to Duran to make use of Aiur's location, which Duran can give freely.


For point 5, it's harder to tell because we don't know enough about the Void. And therefore, we don't really know WHAT kind of a prison the Xel'Naga put him in. As for him being one with the Void, that's BS by Ouros because if that's true, the only way to kill him would be to destroy the whole of the Void dimension, which I doubt happened at the end of the epilogue.
Refresh my memory. I thought Ouros was the imprisoned one. Where does it say Amon was imprisoned? I thought he was just banished to the Void.


Point 7 this is why I said NON-assimilation method. It doesn't have to be via the terrans, just not the original way.
Ok, but it's not going to be Terran tech since they haven't been around. Way easier for him to just use the Tal'Darim.


For point 8, the Tal'darim are easy, but from what I got out of LotV, it appears that most of the Tal'darim didn't know much about the Zerg. This was shown in the convo between Vorazun and Alarak at the beginning of "Templar's Return."
Which is a plothole in SC2's lore. The Tal'Darim came with Amon, and he should have made use of them to hybridize them with zerg instead of waiting thousands of years. That was his goal in creating the Overmind after all.


Back to point 3, once again Gradius, you don't seem to see that Amon didn't think the regular Xel'Naga would confront him at Zerus. It's possible his plan was to finish binding the Zerg to the Overmind, and THEN tell the Overmind about Aiur. But the regular Xel'Naga confronted and defeated him there before that could happen.
Incorrect. He used the Overmind to defeat the Xel'Naga. Sure, he got killed, but he had enough time to order the Overmind to look for Aiur. So why the heck didn't he just give the Overmind the location? He's already told the Overmind about Aiur.



I get what you mean from point 2, which makes me wonder if these energies could only be collected by hybrids or something. If so, it'd mean that the hybrid army (made by terran tech) still wasn't ready by the time of 2500. It'd also mean that the 1st hybrid we saw in "Dark Origins" could have just been a new production method by Duran. In other words, maybe he did try to use terran tech to build hybrids, but in Dark Origins he used a different way to do it as the previous versions are only meant to be as soldiers, not energy collectors.
So his plan never included reviving Amon?


Anyways Gradius, with your comment about the Tal'darim and why Amon didn't just use that, here's another possibility:

First off, remember I'm using the SC2 lore to try to get some sense of the SC1 lore, so do not just say that because the SC2 lore is so shitty, it doesn't count as anything. Not all of us believe that.

Now, recall the regular Xel'Naga confronted Amon at Zerus. By then, his work on the Zerg wasn't finished yet. Therefore, for all we know, at that point in time, Amon didn't even know if Zerg and Protoss DNA could be combined to create the hybrid at all. On the Protoss aspect he probably felt it worked because despite the Firstborn growing beyond their control, Amon still considered them a success to his plans. The Zerg are harder to say because the work was incomplete. Now yes, the SC1 manual did say the Xel'Naga felt the Zerg species' performance meant they accomplished their goal, but now that SC2 has stated this whole time was actually just Amon and his followers, it could mean something entirely different.

Therefore, it's possible that Amon didn't know if Zerg DNA would work with Protoss DNA for hybridization. Given that his work on the Zerg wasn't finished, it seems highly unlikely that any hybrids could have existed before the regular Xel'Naga confronted him at Zerus. If that's true, then the very first hybrid would have been created by Duran (following Amon's orders) sometime during the 3000 years after he was banished into the Void, but before the events of SC1.

If, going by SC2 lore, he didn't believe hybrids could even be made at that point, why did he order the Overmind to destroy/assimilate the protoss? What was the point?


Furthermore, I don't think Ma'lash ever told the Tal'darim any specific details on just how they'd ascend to become hybrid. However fanatical, the Tal'darim aren't completely stupid. Surely even those who had never once encountered the Zerg would have seen the hybrids had elements of a non-Protoss race to them. For those who believed Ma'lash, perhaps they could have felt Amon would eventually choose them to merge with an alien race to become the hybrid or something like that. Now yes, this would go in Amon's favor, but it's possible that at that point in time, he didn't want to lose the Tal'darim's loyalty.
Meh. He's a god. He can kidnap people and turn them into zerg just like Ulrezaj did to his Tal'Darim.

[Visions of Khas]

I'm wondering when and how Amon died. Maybe it was a suicide so he could be in the Void, waiting for when the other Xel'naga were killed by the Overmind and sent to the Void in turn. It would be an ambush, with him and his followers massacring the other Xel'Naga in the Void, except for Ouros.

Maybe he absorbed the essence of all the Xel'Naga he killed, explaining his level of power over the Void.

[ragnarok]

Refresh my memory. I thought Ouros was the imprisoned one. Where does it say Amon was imprisoned? I thought he was just banished to the Void.


Recall the part where Artanis was talking to Karax about the keystone and how it was tampered with by Duran. Karax specifically said the stored energy was used to release Amon from the void. The word "release" seemed to imply he had been imprisoned there.

After all, recall was Kerrigan said at the beginning of the epilogue mission: that Amon planned to return. Therefore, if he was merely BANISHED into the Void, it'd mean nothing, because then Amon could just return whenever he felt like it, without any need for outside help.


That has nothing to do with what I said. It doesn't have to listen to Duran to make use of Aiur's location, which Duran can give freely.

Unless at that point in time, Amon hadn't yet designed to Overmind to respond to anyone other than him.


Ok, but it's not going to be Terran tech since they haven't been around. Way easier for him to just use the Tal'Darim.

Correct, unless at that point Amon didn't want to lose his Protoss allies. As I said, it's possible that by the time the other Xel'Naga confronted him at Zerus, Amon didn't know that Khas had rediscovered the Khala link. Recall what Alarak said: Amon knows the Tal'darim have no Khala for him to control.

Therefore, if by the time Khas rediscovered the Khala and Amon just never knew about it, he would think the only Protoss he has on his side is the Tal'darim, and therefore it's better to play it safe and keep them on his side.


Which is a plothole in SC2's lore. The Tal'Darim came with Amon, and he should have made use of them to hybridize them with zerg instead of waiting thousands of years. That was his goal in creating the Overmind after all.

And I'm saying it's possible that even by the time he reached Zerus, Amon didn't know the Zerg could be used with the Protoss to create hybrids. That would then explain why he waited so long. For all we know, by the time the other Xel'Naga confronted him, Amon STILL didn't know if their DNAs could be successfully combined.

That's why Blizzard was stupid to say the hybrids are Amon's creations. They should be considered Duran's creations because he was the one who finally discovered it was possible to combine Zerg and Protoss DNA to make the hybrids.


Incorrect. He used the Overmind to defeat the Xel'Naga. Sure, he got killed, but he had enough time to order the Overmind to look for Aiur. So why the heck didn't he just give the Overmind the location? He's already told the Overmind about Aiur.

Here's my theory:

It's possible that when the other Xel'Naga confronted him, they got the upper hand very early in the battle. In other words, it could be like the MOMENT Amon unleashed the swarm, the other Xel'Naga succeeded in banishing him back into the Void. As a result, the Overmind was left with no orders other than to kill the Xel'Naga and the rest of the Protoss.

Remember, we don't have any details on exactly WHEN Amon was defeated there....


So his plan never included reviving Amon?

More like Duran overestimated how much essence Ouros had left, and perhaps until the few years right before SC1 happened, he thought Amon could stay alive for much longer.


If, going by SC2 lore, he didn't believe hybrids could even be made at that point, why did he order the Overmind to destroy/assimilate the protoss? What was the point?

It's like this: by the time Amon was defeated at Zerus, he only knew Zerg and Protoss DNA could be combined in theory. He didn't know if this would hold true in practice. Therefore, he gave the order to the Overmind to kill and assimilate the Protoss to test the theory out. This would then be consistent with what Zeratul was telling Tassadar in SC1 Protoss mission 9, that the Overmind had come to Aiur to finish the experiments the Xel'Naga began so long ago. I'm sure you see where this is going...


Meh. He's a god. He can kidnap people and turn them into zerg just like Ulrezaj did to his Tal'Darim.

Saying he's a god means squat. Loki said similarly to the Hulk in the 2012 Avengers film and look where that got him :)

And on that part I'm still hoping to see Ulrezaj again, since we don't know who Ulrezaj's boss is.

[ragnarok]

I'm wondering when and how Amon died. Maybe it was a suicide so he could be in the Void, waiting for when the other Xel'naga were killed by the Overmind and sent to the Void in turn. It would be an ambush, with him and his followers massacring the other Xel'Naga in the Void, except for Ouros.

Maybe he absorbed the essence of all the Xel'Naga he killed, explaining his level of power over the Void.

That's hard to say. We don't know how he corrupted parts of the Void and everything. I'm also curious just why he could only be killed by another Xel'Naga. It's pretty much like Revenge of the Fallen, where Jetfire was saying that only a Prime could kill the Fallen.

I don't think it was about suicide. If the other Xel'Naga hadn't confronted him at Zerus, he would have gotten all he needed. And he wouldn't willingly suicide, with the swarm he would have led them to complete his plans in the proper way.

[Turalyon]

Hmm, I can't help but feel ambivalence going through all this. On one hand, I'm impressed at the lengths that Rag has gone to in trying to piece it all together, yet dismayed at how this is all speculation based on the flimsiest of pretenses.

For example, it's never really stipulated why Amon needs to substantiate and there's nothing in Sc2 to even give us any ideas. This hearkens back to long ago discussions regarding why the Sc1 Overmind made itself manifest on Char, but at least those theories had stonger bases than Amon's. Rag's idea that Amon was actually dying from his continued imprisonment in the Void (if one can even call it that) is fine if it were even hinted at, but there is nothing in Sc2 that even remotely suggests this, making the idea and the extrapolation that follows wholly baseless speculation. Makes you wonder when something as crucial as this bit of information is omitted, whether it was done purposefully or thoughtlessly. Either option is not good anyway since they both damn the writers.

If they purposefully didn't tell us why, how could they expect everyone (let alone making them feel motivated to do so given how bland Amon is) to piece the convolutions together like Rag did? Given how complex Rag's solution is, I can't imagine the true reason being as complex because that means they purposefully left heaps of stuff out in the installment that was supposed to spill all the beans. That and the possibility the writers didn't trust the audience to buy into such a complex explanation (too late for that now) or themselves in writing it out. Makes you wonder why they bothered to have Amon at all given that everything is still so obscure we have to fanon the whole lot.

[ragnarok]

For example, it's never really stipulated why Amon needs to substantiate and there's nothing in Sc2 to even give us any ideas. This hearkens back to long ago discussions regarding why the Sc1 Overmind made itself manifest on Char, but at least those theories had stonger bases than Amon's. Rag's idea that Amon was actually dying from his continued imprisonment in the Void (if one can even call it that) is fine if it were even hinted at, but there is nothing in Sc2 that even remotely suggests this, making the idea and the extrapolation that follows wholly baseless speculation. Makes you wonder when something as crucial as this bit of information is omitted, whether it was done purposefully or thoughtlessly. Either option is not good anyway since they both damn the writers.


That's why I said it's only a theory. Because of Amon was NOT dying in the void prison, Duran never would have needed to do what he did. All he would have needed was a few more years of patience and everything. After all, the Xel'Naga can live billions of years, if not more. A few more centuries wouldn't really be that much of a wait.

As for why they chose not to discuss this, that's obvious: Blizzard didn't think fans would see the lore problems and everything and therefore thought the fans can't be smart enough to raise such a Q.


If they purposefully didn't tell us why, how could they expect everyone (let alone making them feel motivated to do so given how bland Amon is) to piece the convolutions together like Rag did? Given how complex Rag's solution is, I can't imagine the true reason being as complex because that means they purposefully left heaps of stuff out in the installment that was supposed to spill all the beans. That and the possibility the writers didn't trust the audience to buy into such a complex explanation (too late for that now) or themselves in writing it out. Makes you wonder why they bothered to have Amon at all given that everything is still so obscure we have to fanon the whole lot.

All I'm trying to come up with is a solution other than just "Because Blizzard is stupid." We've already known that for some years, along with the fact they were probably too lazy to try to write things out because they thought the whole SC community was only about the multiplayer and therefore don't give a damn about the storyline.

[Turalyon]

That's why I said it's only a theory. Because of Amon was NOT dying in the void prison, Duran never would have needed to do what he did.

This reasoning here has some "cart before the horse" logic running though it. If we are not told Amon is dying, than the first order presumption is that he's not dying. It follows then that Duran doing all this stuff now throughout SC does not necessarily suggest that Amon was actually dying from way before. I could easily make up any other reason really, the simplest of which is that Amon just wanted to be physically present to witness and/or partake in the destruction of the Protoss, so Duran did what he could to make that happen. You're using retroactive continuity to support your theory much in the same way that Blizz has been using it to justify Amon's existence/relevance.


All I'm trying to come up with is a solution other than just "Because Blizzard is stupid."

Commendable as this is, it's either fanon at best or, at worse, you're highlighting one more way how Blizz failed at writing Sc2.

[KaiserStratosTygo]

It's pretty much a refuge from all the trolls/morons on battle.net. I can't really handle that place anymore.

That place led to the death of my account, there.

All I said was DDAY was badass or something and got banned (because poor kids might see curse words)

We're all better off, That entire website is cancer anyways.

[ragnarok]

Commendable as this is, it's either fanon at best or, at worse, you're highlighting one more way how Blizz failed at writing Sc2.

It's better than most people on battlenet who are saying Blizzard failed almost EVERYTHING in SC2....

[Gradius]

Recall the part where Artanis was talking to Karax about the keystone and how it was tampered with by Duran. Karax specifically said the stored energy was used to release Amon from the void. The word "release" seemed to imply he had been imprisoned there.
That's incorrect. He says:

"The Keystone shows clear evidence of tampering. Likely by this Narud creature mentioned in the terran engineer Swann's report. It was adapted to drain the Void energies within Kerrigan and store them until they could be redistributed to revive Amon. The foundation is there... but it was never intended to house the full energies of a xel'naga."

The word is "revive", not "release". It's never been used to trap a Xel'Naga before, but the "foundation" is there. This seems like the first time the artifact is being used in this way. Besides, if he's trapped in there, then he's obviously not in the void.


After all, recall was Kerrigan said at the beginning of the epilogue mission: that Amon planned to return. Therefore, if he was merely BANISHED into the Void, it'd mean nothing, because then Amon could just return whenever he felt like it, without any need for outside help.
I mean that's basically what happened. Rohana says "In the final confrontation, Amon was felled, but he was not defeated. He returned to the Void, twisting it with his hatred.""

Even Kerrigan says "Amon lives. His Hatred festers in the Void, and he already plans to return."

Being banished to the void isn't really a big deal. It just takes a while to return.


Unless at that point in time, Amon hadn't yet designed to Overmind to respond to anyone other than him.
You're not really addressing my core argument...


Correct, unless at that point Amon didn't want to lose his Protoss allies. As I said, it's possible that by the time the other Xel'Naga confronted him at Zerus, Amon didn't know that Khas had rediscovered the Khala link. Recall what Alarak said: Amon knows the Tal'darim have no Khala for him to control.

Therefore, if by the time Khas rediscovered the Khala and Amon just never knew about it, he would think the only Protoss he has on his side is the Tal'darim, and therefore it's better to play it safe and keep them on his side.
That makes no sense. Why would he care about any of that? He has everything he needs right there to make hybrids. Hybrids are better than Tal'Darim.


And I'm saying it's possible that even by the time he reached Zerus, Amon didn't know the Zerg could be used with the Protoss to create hybrids. That would then explain why he waited so long. For all we know, by the time the other Xel'Naga confronted him, Amon STILL didn't know if their DNAs could be successfully combined.

That's why Blizzard was stupid to say the hybrids are Amon's creations. They should be considered Duran's creations because he was the one who finally discovered it was possible to combine Zerg and Protoss DNA to make the hybrids.And I'm saying the facts totally contradict your hypothesis. Duran flat out tells you that's the whole point of the zerg:

"Narud: The Swarm had one purpose: to assimilate the protoss and create the hybrid. Now, you're are no longer needed."

And if Amon didn't know they could be hybridized at the time, he wouldn't have ordered the Overmind to attack/assimilate the protoss.


It's possible that when the other Xel'Naga confronted him, they got the upper hand very early in the battle. In other words, it could be like the MOMENT Amon unleashed the swarm, the other Xel'Naga succeeded in banishing him back into the Void.

As a result, the Overmind was left with no orders other than to kill the Xel'Naga and the rest of the Protoss.

Remember, we don't have any details on exactly WHEN Amon was defeated there....
That would be incorrect since Amon killed them all at Zerus. It's only on Ulnar that the Xel'Naga made their final stand, and Amon was defeated.


More like Duran overestimated how much essence Ouros had left, and perhaps until the few years right before SC1 happened, he thought Amon could stay alive for much longer.
Ok, well we know for a fact that Narud planned to revive Amon after he died.


It's like this: by the time Amon was defeated at Zerus, he only knew Zerg and Protoss DNA could be combined in theory. He didn't know if this would hold true in practice. Therefore, he gave the order to the Overmind to kill and assimilate the Protoss to test the theory out. This would then be consistent with what Zeratul was telling Tassadar in SC1 Protoss mission 9, that the Overmind had come to Aiur to finish the experiments the Xel'Naga began so long ago. I'm sure you see where this is going...
You were originally trying to explain why he didn't use Tal'Darim instead. If he thought that zerg and protoss DNA could be combined in theory, he'd be doing that with Tal'Darim and the zerg he had at his disposal instead of going through the trouble of making an Overmind and ordering them to attack the protoss that live halfway across the galaxy.


Saying he's a god means squat. Loki said similarly to the Hulk in the 2012 Avengers film and look where that got him :)
Non-sequitur (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_sequitur_(logic)). Hulk is stronger than Loki. A regular Tal'Darim is not stronger than Amon, who could literally rip worlds apart, and therefore Amon could do whatever he wanted with them individually.



And on that part I'm still hoping to see Ulrezaj again, since we don't know who Ulrezaj's boss is.
I think it's obviously meant to be Amon or at least Narud. Ulrezaj was making hybrids. :P

[Visions of Khas]

I think it's obviously meant to be Amon or at least Narud. Ulrezaj was making hybrids. :P

According to the wiki, "It has been confirmed that Ulrezaj's master was not Amon," according to a Blizzcon lore discussion in 2015. To quote from the panel: "Ulrezaj was leading them [Tal'darim] to different ends than what Amon dictated... No, he [Ulrezaj] was a separatist who kinda had his own agenda there in the dark templar books. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwJ_e2d9AFI)"

Also, Valerie Watrous is fucking adorable.

While I think Narud was Ulrezaj's boss, it's interesting to note that Valerie mentioned that Narud has some nefarious, unexplored reasons for the different Tal'darim factions opposing each other and Raynor's Raiders in WoL. I'm assuming this is in addition to Executor's Nyon's terrazine-induced madness.

[ragnarok]

That's incorrect. He says:

"The Keystone shows clear evidence of tampering. Likely by this Narud creature mentioned in the terran engineer Swann's report. It was adapted to drain the Void energies within Kerrigan and store them until they could be redistributed to revive Amon. The foundation is there... but it was never intended to house the full energies of a xel'naga."

The word is "revive", not "release". It's never been used to trap a Xel'Naga before, but the "foundation" is there. This seems like the first time the artifact is being used in this way. Besides, if he's trapped in there, then he's obviously not in the void.


My bad. In that case, use the convo Artanis had with Karax after "Harbinger of Oblivion." After the last Ulnar mission, he spoke to Karax, and Karax said it's still possible for the Keystone to be their salvation. When Artanis asked how it cleansed Kerrigan, Karax said the following:

"It extracted the essence that forged her into the Queen of Blades. Then it used that energy to release Amon from the Void.

Since "released" was used here, it implies that Amon was stuck in the Void with no way to get out without outside help in some way.


I mean that's basically what happened. Rohana says "In the final confrontation, Amon was felled, but he was not defeated. He returned to the Void, twisting it with his hatred.""

Even Kerrigan says "Amon lives. His Hatred festers in the Void, and he already plans to return."

Being banished to the void isn't really a big deal. It just takes a while to return.

You don't know that. Granted Kerrigan didn't exactly say when Amon would return, but she said he would return unless they go into the Void and finish this. However if Amon could return any time he wanted, then it'd make keeping Ouros alive pointless, and the same would hold true for why Duran didn't kill Kerrigan.

If we go by your theory, all Amon really had to do was wait a few extra centuries and he'd be back.


That makes no sense. Why would he care about any of that? He has everything he needs right there to make hybrids. Hybrids are better than Tal'Darim.

True, but did he know how powerful the hybrids really are? We don't know when the very first hybrid was made. And until that time came, all Amon and Duran had were theories on their strength. Again, it's possible by the time Amon was sent back into the Void, Duran didn't even know of Zerg and Protoss DNA could be combined to make the hybrids.


And I'm saying the facts totally contradict your hypothesis. Duran flat out tells you that's the whole point of the zerg:

"Narud: The Swarm had one purpose: to assimilate the protoss and create the hybrid. Now, you're are no longer needed."

And if Amon didn't know they could be hybridized at the time, he wouldn't have ordered the Overmind to attack/assimilate the protoss.

The Zerg race was genetically meant to keep consuming species. But my point remains: despite all the work Amon did on them and the Protoss, he still didn't know if the assimilation would work out or not. He ordered the Zerg to attack the Protoss like that to test his theory out. It's entirely possible that right before he was banished into the Void, Amon only thought this'd work in theory. However, his mentality was that if the Zerg assimilated the Protoss and hybrid could NOT be created this way, then he'd merely had to find another species for the Zerg to absorb.


That would be incorrect since Amon killed them all at Zerus. It's only on Ulnar that the Xel'Naga made their final stand, and Amon was defeated.

You don't know that. Rohana said that after Amon unleashed the swarm, the Zerg killed the Xel'Naga. Only a fraction remained within Ulnar. Then, she said in the final confrontation, Amon was defeated and forced back into the Void. However, these two sentences are not related. It wasn't exactly said WHERE and WHEN Amon was finally defeated, though the prologue seemed to imply Amon was defeated at Atrias.

Which naturally is another blunder on Blizzard's part because now it's even more confusing as to just what led to Amon's defeat in the first place.


Ok, well we know for a fact that Narud planned to revive Amon after he died.

Correct, I think I may just write another thread and this and tell you my theory on why the Tal'darim was never used.


You were originally trying to explain why he didn't use Tal'Darim instead. If he thought that zerg and protoss DNA could be combined in theory, he'd be doing that with Tal'Darim and the zerg he had at his disposal instead of going through the trouble of making an Overmind and ordering them to attack the protoss that live halfway across the galaxy.

I understand your point my friend, but my point still remains on the Void imprisonment theory. The way I see it, Amon's goal to create hybrids takes a backseat compared to getting himself out of the Void prison. That part has to come first. Likely Duran felt that he was free to make the hybrids all he wanted, but he had to help his master first. Or, at the very least, create the hybrids for the sake to help his master. In other words, the initial purpose of the hybrid was merely to free Amon from the Void, not replace all races in the universe as the "master race."


Non-sequitur. Hulk is stronger than Loki. A regular Tal'Darim is not stronger than Amon, who could literally rip worlds apart, and therefore Amon could do whatever he wanted with them individually.

I'm not going to argue with you on the marvel part since I'm no comic fan. But as for would Amon be able to do whatever he wanted with the Tal'darim, again this goes back to the Void prison theory. I think I may have to write another thread on this for you and I to discuss on.

[Gradius]

Rag, the Xel'Naga came from the void; it makes no sense for it to be their prison. I'm not saying coming back is a piece of cake, but the Xel'Naga came into the material universe from the outside without anyone's help, and even if it's an extremely slow process, Amon can still do it. I suspect gathering the energy from Kerrigan was just to speed it up. Ouros says: "He is the one within the Void. It is an extension of his will, binding me as prisoner." So really it's Ouros that is the prisoner, not Amon, who has total mastery over the void and is "one" with it to the point that he killed all other Xel'Naga. I think you have the whole thing backwards.

I admire the thought and effort put into this but unfortunately I don't really think your hypothesis fits enough facts to even be called a theory. It doesn't really add anything else to our understanding of the game and isn't intuitive/elegant.

[ragnarok]

Rag, the Xel'Naga came from the void; it makes no sense for it to be their prison. I'm not saying coming back is a piece of cake, but the Xel'Naga came into the material universe from the outside without anyone's help, and even if it's an extremely slow process, Amon can still do it. I suspect gathering the energy from Kerrigan was just to speed it up. Ouros says: "He is the one within the Void. It is an extension of his will, binding me as prisoner." So really it's Ouros that is the prisoner, not Amon, who has total mastery over the void and is "one" with it to the point that he killed all other Xel'Naga. I think you have the whole thing backwards.

I admire the thought and effort put into this but unfortunately I don't really think your hypothesis fits enough facts to even be called a theory. It doesn't really add anything else to our understanding of the game and isn't intuitive/elegant.

Because just because they came from the void doesn't mean you can imprison them there. That'd be saying that just because human beings are born on the Earth, there's no way to imprison us on the planet. Besides, we don't know what kind of a prison Amon was put in. For all we know, it could have been a place Ouros and the others specifically designed, and not just a natural place in the Void.

As for what Ouros said of him being one with the Void, that's just him being hypocritical. If that was true Kerrigan's actions achieved nothing by the end because Amon would still be alive.

[Visions of Khas]

Ouros essentially stated Amon's mastery of the Void was strong, not that the two were one and the same. Amon's power probably stems from the essence he absorbed from all the 'Naga he killed.

[KaiserStratosTygo]

It's better than most people on battlenet who are saying Blizzard failed almost EVERYTHING in SC2....

Eh, it's good to give it the ole' college try.

but Blizzard did fail at almost EVERYTHING in SC2....

Theory crafting for the sake of salvaging a lost cause though noble, is ultimately pointless. (unless you're thinking about making a campaign or something, than more power to you)

[ragnarok]

Eh, it's good to give it the ole' college try.

but Blizzard did fail at almost EVERYTHING in SC2....

Theory crafting for the sake of salvaging a lost cause though noble, is ultimately pointless. (unless you're thinking about making a campaign or something, than more power to you)

Sorry Stratos, but you know I cannot accept a total failure (it's also the reason why I won't let go of the redemption matter).