How to Rework Starcraft II

[DarthYam]

Okay, now that Legacy of the Void is out I think it's safe to say that the final verdict is an ambitious but ultimately flawed series. Unlike many I think that many of the ideas therein COULD have worked. Kerrigan's redemption could be explained as how the infestation/amon's taint amplified things like rage and anger and suppressed things like empathy and compassion. Notes: Amon is still the big bad, Kerrigan still tries to undergo redemption, the final fight is against Amon and his soldiers. That outline remains intact. Your job is to try and make a good story out of it.

What I think went wrong

WOL:

The overall story arc is Raynor facing his inner demons and coming to terms with his past before finally forgiving himself and moving on as a character. Chris Metzen said the original plan would have been for Raynor to make more mistakes over the course of the game before finally facing his past and redeeming himself. Blizzard also stated that the actual intent was that Raynor HAD given up on Kerrigan; when Valerian showed him what the artifact could do he realized that she could be rehabilitated and was given the choice between hoping again and wallowing in despair. Since he's sick of wallowing in despair, he ultimately decides to give Valerian's crazy scheme a try


HOTS: The biggest problem here is that Blizzard didn't really know what the fuck they wanted to do. According to earlier reports Kerrigan would have not only spared Lassara and her fellows but even gotten to befriend Lassarra and earn her respect. However, Blizzard ALSO wanted to have a Kerrigan so consumed by revenge she didn't care what happened up until she finally faces what she's become and finally becomes a better person in the final three missions. Unfortunately those two themes are kinda incompatible and as such Kerrigan was a schizophrenic mess.

I would have made it that Kerrigan was more...conflicted. She's fully aware of just what she's done as the Queen of Blades, and is scared of the darkness that lurks within her heart. However, the resistance doesn't have the firepower needed to save Raynor and the Protoss are too busy with their shit. Kerrigan realizes that the only way to save Jim is to get the power of the Swarm. I proposed a modified version of Rowan Seven's initial speculations to Ragnarok about a month or two back.

"If you get to Heart of the Swarm Rowan Seven's idea might be the best way to go. This is my rough summation.

Start: Kerrigan flees Hyperion after the Zerg attack under Amon's control. There's a brief awkward reunion as Kerrigan tries to come to terms with what happened. Kerrigan flees both to save Jim (since she's the target) and to get time to think. She crashlands on a world with a minor prescence (place Naktul here) and we get some intro missions of Kerrigan learning how to control the Zerg. Kerrigan fights off the dominion commander who eventually corners her. Zeratul shows up and saves her to her surprise. She and the queen get the hell out of dodge with zeratul.

Zeratul reveals to Kerrigan the details of the prophecy and how she's the only one who can save all life from the fire. He tags along, serving as a mentor figure. The relationship is badly strained because Kerrigan is guilty over what she did to Raszegal.

Branch 1: The Brood Queen gives missions to recruit the other swarms. This could be shit like Kaldir, Char etc. On Kaldir, Kerrigan spares Lassara and her fellow researchers (those alive when the blood bath ended); Kerrigan is once more faced with reminders of her past.

Branch 2: Zeratul gives out missions trying to find out about the hybrids. This crosses over with Jim, and the uncomfortable relationship between them. This climaxes in Skygeir station, where we get Stukov and the fight with Duran. After Duran is beaten he flees with his tale between his legs and Kerrigan and Stukov blow the base to hell.

Branch 3: Kerrigan discovers a rogue Cerebrate that somehow survived the purge. The cerebrate doesn't like her but fears Amon's darkness even more. Kerrigan saves him (Having gotten the sos) and he promises to teach her more about the overmind and why she was created. This includes flashbacks about the Zerg's origins, while the mission is saving him, or doing a few things. The cerebrate joins the swarm eventually, and is given a new life (he's no longer dying slowly).

Final Branch: Aiur: As Selendis launches the reclamation of Aiur, Kerrigan and her crew fight their way to the overmind corpse. Zeratul has left her. (this is my addition). Kerrigan sees Tassadar's ghost, who in turn brings the remnants of the overmind (my take is over). Kerrigan demands answers; the overmind reveals that he created her to save the zerg from Amon. He also reveals that not only did the artifact purge the last bit of Amon's taint from her, but Tassadar's sacrifice did the same with his corpse. If Kerrigan absorbs his essence she'll be able to control the rest of the swarm not under Amon's thrall (Amon has gained control of some brood mothers). The overmind tells her that this is her choice. Rayner (who is there) protests, since he fought so hard to get Kerrigan back; in any case what if the infestation supresses her morality like last time. Kerrigan debates her choices and decides that she can't let the universe die. She accepts the overmind's offer. She has Abathur modify the process (she has her morality this time) and steps into her fate. Unfortunately the Protoss are now aware of what's going on so Kerrigan's forces have to defend the Site while Kerrigan ascends. Kerrigan ascends. Tassadar's spirit rematerializes (he can only appear sporadically) and manages to Just tell Selendis about the threat they face and how Kerrigan is needed. At this point his jailers drag him back into the void away from the rest of the protoss. The two factions join together in preparation for the end."

Kerrigan's ascension would thus be a painful sacrifice for the greater good; to stop Amon she's willing to abandon her chance at happiness. We also get more insight into Amon's past rather than having it all dumped in Legacy.

I was also planning on maybe even having Mengsk try to redeem himself. As he gets weaker Amon's forces (Ulrezaj and his followers, Duran) are pretty much the sole source of his power. Mengsk is basically their bitch. Mengsk finally gets a glimpse of Amon's plan and even he is horrified. He finally reflects on his life choices and tries to make one last shot at redemption. He tries to send the information on all the Hybrid factories, maybe even the Revanscar one. He succeeds but dies in the process.

It's like Red Mist in Kick Ass 3. He makes a genuine attempt to make amends but it's unclear whether or not it was really enough to truly atone for his sins.

[ragnarok]

For me DarthYam, it we had tried to work with LotV given what was presented in HotS, I wouldn't have had Amon had the power to corrupt the Khala at all. Zeratul should have remained respected by the whole of the Daelaam, and rather Kerrigan would have been left lost as to just what she was supposed to do.

I guess the destruction of the Moebius facility in the prologue was fine, but back then we still operated under the assumption Duran merely used terran facilities to help speed up production of the hybrid army, and in reality most hybrids have been seeded across many worlds.

Artanis would have been unconvinced of Zeratul's prophecy and would have concentrated on getting Aiur back, and then immediately taking the fight to the swarm. Kerrigan herself would be forced to turn to terrans such as Jake Ramsey for help in order to know more about Amon, but Jake would warn her that this will never convince the Protoss, since they'd merely assume she warped his mind like what happened to Raszagal.

Bottom line is for her at the end of HotS it's that she should be resigned to death and to lead the swarm on a suicide mission, since that's the only way to convince others she's not manipulating anyone this time. She understood that even if by some miracle Raynor could convince the WHOLE of the terran race otherwise, he'll never be able to convince the Protoss, and they're never going to stop until her head is on a pike.

[Turalyon]

Seeing that there's no entry for LotV, I'm assuming that you found nothing wrong with it?

I see that there are no Primal Zerg included here but that the plot device they serve remains intact by shifting it onto the Overmind. Personally, I'm not really a fan of comic-book-style resurrected dead characters (ie: dead should mean exactly that), especially of one that has died twice already. Might as well just introduce Ouros at that point (instead of the Overmind) and give her the powerup then and there, rather than obfuscate and being purposefully twisty with plot gimmickry. Besides, it's not much of a choice really since it's either the option of be a saviour or be a selfish dick - doesn't take much guessing which one will be chosen.


What I think went wrong

WOL:

The overall story arc is Raynor facing his inner demons and coming to terms with his past before finally forgiving himself and moving on as a character. Chris Metzen said the original plan would have been for Raynor to make more mistakes over the course of the game before finally facing his past and redeeming himself. Blizzard also stated that the actual intent was that Raynor HAD given up on Kerrigan; when Valerian showed him what the artifact could do he realized that she could be rehabilitated and was given the choice between hoping again and wallowing in despair. Since he's sick of wallowing in despair, he ultimately decides to give Valerian's crazy scheme a try

:confused: Huh? You've just explained the actual premise of WoL... and you think all of it is wrong? I don't get it.

[ragnarok]

Seeing that there's no entry for LotV, I'm assuming that you found nothing wrong with it?

I see that there are no Primal Zerg included here but that the plot device they serve remains intact by shifting it onto the Overmind. Personally, I'm not really a fan of comic-book-style resurrected dead characters (ie: dead should mean exactly that), especially of one that has died twice already. Might as well just introduce Ouros at that point (instead of the Overmind) and give her the powerup then and there, rather than obfuscate and being purposefully twisty with plot gimmickry. Besides, it's not much of a choice really since it's either the option of be a saviour or be a selfish dick - doesn't take much guessing which one will be chosen.



:confused: Huh? You've just explained the actual premise of WoL... and you think all of it is wrong? I don't get it.

Blizzard would probably use the excuse that Kerrigan didn't give Dehaka essence, so he left the swarm. This was something explained in HotS and everything.

I'm not sure about introducing Ouros EARLY in HotS, maybe just have Kerrigan hear Tassadar's voice and everything, and get her to investigate. Only by the end of HotS, after Mengsk's death, THEN she'll discover Ouros. However, Ouros's plan to her will not be explained until LotV (or at least the prologue).

[DarthYam]

Seeing that there's no entry for LotV, I'm assuming that you found nothing wrong with it?

I see that there are no Primal Zerg included here but that the plot device they serve remains intact by shifting it onto the Overmind. Personally, I'm not really a fan of comic-book-style resurrected dead characters (ie: dead should mean exactly that), especially of one that has died twice already. Might as well just introduce Ouros at that point (instead of the Overmind) and give her the powerup then and there, rather than obfuscate and being purposefully twisty with plot gimmickry. Besides, it's not much of a choice really since it's either the option of be a saviour or be a selfish dick - doesn't take much guessing which one will be chosen.



:confused: Huh? You've just explained the actual premise of WoL... and you think all of it is wrong? I don't get it.

1.) I'm saying it wasn't conveyed well. A lot of people thought Raynor forgot his oath to Fenix; I think it should have been clearer that Raynor had given up on Kerrigan until the artifact raised the possibility that she could be rehabilitated. Metzan also stated that Raynor's mistakes in the missions would be more pronounced. purewasted's ideas a few years ago was more in line with what I thought. Raynor would make more pronounced mistakes in the process of achieving redemption

I would have had it that when Tassadar ascended he met Ouros and learned what the fuck was going on. He returned to the Overmind's site with Ouros's help so that he could warn the rest of the galaxy. Kerrigan meeting with the Overmind is a leftover from when Rowan Seven proposed the idea back in 010, but I think Kerrigan coming face to face with the overmind (the one who changed her) would allow her to face some of her past. I really wanted to emphasize Kerrigan's inner conflict; she's aware that while she wasn't entirely responsible for what she did in Brood War, but at the same time she knows that the darkness of the Queen of Blades was in many ways the darkness within her own soul (i.e. if Amon's taint was involved, all it really did was suppress empathy and compassion, allowing her natural desires for revenge and aggression to become dominant.)

Case in point Charles Whitman aka the guy who killed all those people from the clock tower back in the 60s. He had a tumor in the part of his brain that controlled fear and rage, so while it's safe to say Whitman ultimately did make the choice, the tumor meant he wasn't ENTIRELY responsible. Personally I felt it was a good way to have a compromise; Kerrigan can be redeemable while still being largely responsible for brood war.

Part of the climax I thought for Legacy was that in Amon's home realm SOMEONE had to become a Xel'Naga. Ouros would have merged the essence of Tassadar (as well as his own essence) to Kerrigan. Kerrigan accepted because she was the most expandable. The Protoss will need a leader to guide them through the upheaval and adaptation (even if the Khala wasn't destroyed there would be changes); Artanis can be that leader. Kerrigan by contrast has hands stained with blood, and as such is the one who deserves to be condemned to a solitary existence. Becoming a Xel'Naga means abandoning everything you hold dear, and Kerrigan, as a mass murderer wanting to make amends who won't be trusted, is the best candidate

[Turalyon]

I'm saying it wasn't conveyed well. A lot of people thought Raynor forgot his oath to Fenix; I think it should have been clearer that Raynor had given up on Kerrigan until the artifact raised the possibility that she could be rehabilitated. Metzan also stated that Raynor's mistakes in the missions would be more pronounced. purewasted's ideas a few years ago was more in line with what I thought. Raynor would make more pronounced mistakes in the process of achieving redemption

In full agreement with WoL not being conveyed well and that Raynor's supposed mistakes were perfunctory at best and non-existent at worst. I'm still mixed on the idea that the artifact be the thing that prompts Raynor's own self-redemption and Kerrigan's actual redemption though. It's largely because the "artifact" (or whatever name they give it - it's a pointless distinction either way) draws attention to itself as nothing but a blatant plot device. Because of it being arbitrarily very important yet ultimately empty, it sort of renders any character arc (in this case, Raynor being redeemed of his self-pity and survival guilt in WoL) that comes off as a direct consequence of this plot device hollow as well because it is contrived.


I would have had it that when Tassadar ascended he met Ouros and learned what the fuck was going on. He returned to the Overmind's site with Ouros's help so that he could warn the rest of the galaxy. Kerrigan meeting with the Overmind is a leftover from when Rowan Seven proposed the idea back in 010, but I think Kerrigan coming face to face with the overmind (the one who changed her) would allow her to face some of her past.

I really wanted to emphasize Kerrigan's inner conflict; she's aware that while she wasn't entirely responsible for what she did in Brood War, but at the same time she knows that the darkness of the Queen of Blades was in many ways the darkness within her own soul (i.e. if Amon's taint was involved, all it really did was suppress empathy and compassion, allowing her natural desires for revenge and aggression to become dominant.)

Using the framework you provided above, I think it's better if the Overmind character was just left out altogether and just have Tassadar be the one she answers to. She did commit wrongs against him, so why not have her face someone that she has wronged? I think that'd make a more powerful scene instead, since that allows her to show her agency where she decides to do good when faced by someone who has every reason to think negatively toward her. And, because Tassadar is actually revealed to be Ouros in LotV, it could easily explain why "Tassadar" could power her up then and there. Better yet, one could just dispense with Ouros altogether and have the Tassamind be a Xel'Naga that empowers Kerrigan as it's agent.

Like I've said in the past though, she can't turn good but still be a part of the Zerg. The Zerg are inherently myopic, selfish and are, well, monsters (I'm saying this about my favourite race, mind you!). This is at odds with any arc pertaining to Kerrigan being good again since this would mean undermining what the Zerg are about. If the Zerg were to be involved, it would have to be about Kerrigan coming to terms with the darkness within her soul by choosing to embrace/accepting it. Sure, it'd be pitch black and horrifying, but that's the Zerg.


Part of the climax I thought for Legacy was that in Amon's home realm SOMEONE had to become a Xel'Naga. Ouros would have merged the essence of Tassadar (as well as his own essence) to Kerrigan.

In terms of plot progression, this works better solely because a Protoss is involved. Partly why the LotV rubs (especially the epilogue) is that the Protoss are ultimately made a third wheel in their very own story since they are non-essential to the formation of new Xel'Naga, if not being UNideal candidates at all. As to the someone having to become a Xel'Naga, I think revealing that Tassadar and the Overmind became a Xel'Naga would be a more satisfactory plot twist and that including Kerrigan as a Terran into that mix to make a different type of Xel'Naga would be more interesting than what we got with Ascended Kerrigan being Xel'Naga only because Blizz just marked her as being as special.


Becoming a Xel'Naga means abandoning everything you hold dear, and Kerrigan, as a mass murderer wanting to make amends who won't be trusted, is the best candidate

But she's already abandoned everything by being the QoB again in Sc2 so she's actually gaining a lot of things/rewarded by becoming a Xel'Naga, one of which is to appear human again to Raynor should she wish and space magic to fix whatever she wants. It's a terribly mixed message either way.

[ragnarok]

Part of the climax I thought for Legacy was that in Amon's home realm SOMEONE had to become a Xel'Naga. Ouros would have merged the essence of Tassadar (as well as his own essence) to Kerrigan. Kerrigan accepted because she was the most expandable. The Protoss will need a leader to guide them through the upheaval and adaptation (even if the Khala wasn't destroyed there would be changes); Artanis can be that leader. Kerrigan by contrast has hands stained with blood, and as such is the one who deserves to be condemned to a solitary existence. Becoming a Xel'Naga means abandoning everything you hold dear, and Kerrigan, as a mass murderer wanting to make amends who won't be trusted, is the best candidate

No one had to be a Xel'Naga at all, DarthYam. It was NEVER stated that Amon could only be killed by another Xel'Naga. After all, we've known since SC1 that the Zerg killed a lot of the Xel'Naga at Zerus, and the Overmind assimilated plenty of them.

Granted, many fans had speculated that it's entirely possible Amon had powers that other Xel'Naga didn't, but this was never explained in LotV. We don't really know if the other Xel'Naga could tap into the power of the Void and merely chose not to while Amon did, or Amon was something more unique.

The problem here was that at the end of the 1st epilogue mission, Kerrigan had felt there was NO possible way she could survive this confrontation, but because everyone else wanted justice done for her crimes, her death was the only way to go. This is something that many fans had discussed long before Blizzard gave any info on LotV, that Kerrigan felt that even if by some miracle she could survive the war against Amon, the Protoss would just kill her anyway.

As for becoming Xel'Naga and abandoning everything, Kerrigan already stated just that at the end of HotS, yet at the end of LotV, she still got Raynor back. I didn't mind that, but this would be against the abandoning everything concept.

Furthermore, after the essence transfer, Ouros DID say that the Infinite Cycle has now ended. It's possible that he was hoping that Kerrigan would start a new form of the cycle of something. Besides, Kerrigan herself DID tell Amon that she cared nothing for the Xel'Naga cycle.

Of course, if people looked hard into that, it already opened the door for her to become the villain yet again. Basically from what I got out of Amon is that he wanted the powers of the Xel'Naga, but didn't want the responsibility the Xel'Naga had of the cycle and everything. The fact that Amon had followers proved that he wasn't the ONLY Xel'Naga who resented this responsibility. Thus if Kerrigan refused to uphold the Xel'Naga cycle with the world seeding and everything, people would immediately ask, "Then how would you be any different than Amon?"

[ragnarok]

In terms of plot progression, this works better solely because a Protoss is involved. Partly why the LotV rubs (especially the epilogue) is that the Protoss are ultimately made a third wheel in their very own story since they are non-essential to the formation of new Xel'Naga, if not being UNideal candidates at all. As to the someone having to become a Xel'Naga, I think revealing that Tassadar and the Overmind became a Xel'Naga would be a more satisfactory plot twist and that including Kerrigan as a Terran into that mix to make a different type of Xel'Naga would be more interesting than what we got with Ascended Kerrigan being Xel'Naga only because Blizz just marked her as being as special.


You don't need the ascension AT ALL. Being the key to victory does NOT have to involve any ascending to godhood or any of that fantasy. It could merely mean heroic sacrifice.

For example, long before any info on LotV was out, many had speculated that Zeratul could have uncovered ancient weapon left by the Xel'Naga after they discovered Amon's plans. The Xel'Naga artifact that deinfested Kerrigan at the end of WoL was meant to be that weapon's activation key, which would finally kill him once and for all.

However, Amon got to them first, denying them usage of the weapon, so the Xel'Naga were forced to split the Activation Key into several pieces (hence why we had to go for the artifact hunt several times over in WoL) in order to hide it from Amon. When Zeratul discovered that ancient Xel'Naga weapon, he saw that it had been offline for way too long, and even if the Activation Key was recovered, needed a nudge of psionic energy in order get it going again. The problem was that a "nudge" by Xel'Naga standards is considered astronomical by terran, Zerg, and Protoss standards, and even when she was infested, Kerrigan's psionic levels were too low to provide the "nudge" necessary.

THAT would then explain why Zeratul told her about Zerus in HotS and the primal transformation. Zeratul gambled that this would finally provide the psionic energies necessary to bring the ancient Xel'Naga weapon online to kill Amon. Duran used her energies to revive his master, it's only fitting that her energies would be used to kill him.

So you see Turalyon, if things had worked out like that, there never would have been a need for ascension. All that we needed was a heroic sacrifice.

[Turalyon]

You don't need the ascension AT ALL. Being the key to victory does NOT have to involve any ascending to godhood or any of that fantasy. It could merely mean heroic sacrifice.

I have no idea how this relates to any part of my reply you quoted.

[DarthYam]

Overall I think there needs to be an overall storyline that runs through each of the three games. Amon's hybrids are the big bads, as is Amon himself. First, what Amon should have been needs to be established. James

Amon: I honestly liked some of what was revealed in his backstory. According to the Polygon article it was "It’s very much a Lucifer story on some level," Waugh says of Amon. "It’s a character that had the opportunity to become a great being, and then realized he didn’t like that; at the end of the day, he was part of this ancient, infinite cycle. He realizes that that’s not what he wants, he wants to shatter that cycle. He wants to break everything. He feels lied to. In his mind, he’s the hero of his own story." Waugh also said that "Where Artanis kind of takes on the burden and realizes that there is a lot of flaws in what is the world, that there's a way to work with them and improve them, Amon decides to shatter it all."

You can get mileage outa that. Maybe he discovered he didn't want the responsibility being a god entailed, and when he couldn't back out he felt like he had been cheated. That makes him sorta like brood war Kerrigan in that he tries to destroy the board to escape being a pawn in a game he didn't want to play. It also portrays a converse between Kerrigan and Artanis vs Amon. They were willing to step up to the plate and do the hard things; Amon wasn't and just wanted to smash the cycle and make a perfect world.

So the fact remains. How should Amon have been executed in the trilogy?

[Turalyon]

^ This is all well and good, but none of this is ever felt at any level by the audience. We're only just told about his backstory through someone else blurting out exposition. Amon himself only just blusters about and taunts whenever he deigns to speak.

As to how he should've been portrayed, well, there's an easy answer to that. Just look at the previous antagonists in Sc. They all had their own campaigns to flesh them out/give them a voice and POV. Amon never has this luxuryt and that's why he seems so generic.

[DarthYam]

^ This is all well and good, but none of this is ever felt at any level by the audience. We're only just told about his backstory through someone else blurting out exposition. Amon himself only just blusters about and taunts whenever he deigns to speak.

As to how he should've been portrayed, well, there's an easy answer to that. Just look at the previous antagonists in Sc. They all had their own campaigns to flesh them out/give them a voice and POV. Amon never has this luxuryt and that's why he seems so generic.

Maybe you can have the Zerg Campaign be Amon taking over the swarm? Amon did reveal some of his motivation in the final battle. Rohana linked to the guy's mind.

But that's not the point. It's how would YOU have written WOL HOTS and LOTV while keeping the key plot points (Kerrigan's redemption, Amon's rising, the fight to stop the apocalypse.) The Artifact was kinda necessary in that it broke the conditioning that suppressed Kerrigan's empathy and compassion.

I would have kept most of the basic outline of Wings. Raynor's facing the ghosts of his pasts and trying to win a war, when at the same time we see hints of a darker threat lurking in the shadows.

HOTS I would have gone with the original plan and made Kerrigan more sympathetic. In the original version she would have spared Lassara and befriended her and the others. This would have eliminated her more egregious actions and still allow her to be relatable. Kerrigan would try to be good and also try to use the swarm for good. Since they're smaller it would also force them to adapt; they have to use stealth and cunning instead of just roflstomping the enemy.

LOTV would be the final conflict against Amon; I'd keep the Kerrigan ascending, or maybe have her and Artanis merge into one being that becomes the new xel'naga. Amon is defeated and killed in such a way that his soul is basically purified and broken down to it's bare essence. He can be reincarnated as a better person with no knowledge of his past life (Like UUB in DBZ)

[ragnarok]

So the fact remains. How should Amon have been executed in the trilogy?

Well, it could have been like this:

Amon's belief in that all conflict comes from the Xel'Naga cycle isn't completely without grounds. Plenty of dictators in real life have used that same phrase that they'd bring order after centuries of chaos. I don't think Amon understood that as long as there's life, there will ALWAYS be conflict. This is likely something the other Xel'Naga didn't teach him after his ascension. Start with that.

[Turalyon]

Amon did reveal some of his motivation in the final battle. Rohana linked to the guy's mind.

This is actually part of the issue. Rohana's sole purpose in the story is to give an info dump on Amon's motivation. It's exposition for the sake of exposition.

Sc1's Overmind is the sort antagonist of the same mould that Amon is cut from in that both are sci-fi archetypes of "aliens beyond normal-human comprehension". However, the difference is we get a peek at the Overmind in its element and get a chance to understand it. Granted, whether it ultimately worked is subjective but it is mightily helpful in getting a feel of it's motivation. Without it, the Zerg are really just some big bad to be defeated like Amon is. Case in point, is that if all we had to go on in Sc1 (as in no Zerg campaing) was Zeratul's and Tassadar's assessment of the Overmind's motivation (like it is with Rohana doing this to Amon in LotV), than the Overmind would clearly not be as memorable as it was. The Overmind's portrayal is partly the reason why Zerg is my Sc favourite race lorewise.

The same can be said for the UED since whilst they were more obviously shoe-horned in as antagonists out-of-nowhere, they were made memorable through the depictions of DuGalle and Stukov.


But that's not the point. It's how would YOU have written WOL HOTS and LOTV while keeping the key plot points (Kerrigan's redemption, Amon's rising, the fight to stop the apocalypse.) The Artifact was kinda necessary in that it broke the conditioning that suppressed Kerrigan's empathy and compassion.

You didn't stipulate that restriction of keeping the key plot points at first when you asked about how Amon should have been portrayed. Even then, the key point of Kerrigan's redemption that you note is a dubious one in that it only occurs with any clarity in LotV. HotS is clearly not about Kerrigan's redemption and if it was supposed to be about that, it's terrible writing because of the mixed messages it gave.

Still, the problem with Sc2 and the paucity of Amon's depiction is largely to do with the fundamental aspect that Sc2 is not really a cohesive trilogy. WoL and HotS are clearly linked what with them largely being about Terran affairs whilst LotV is off on it's own tangent being somewhat disparate in comparison to the previous two. When followed sequentially, LotV sticks out like a sore thumb because it's story can actually occur and work without having to play or have knowledge of the previous two entries. WoL and HotS don't really inform you much about the situation leading up to LotV, since the one thing that does (the artifact plot device in which the whole story hinges around) came out of nowhere anyway in WoL and was in possession of the "evil force" already (Moebius and Tal'Darim).

The only conceivable way to improve this (nothing can truly fix the shambles in how this trilogy is constructed), with the aim being to reinforce Amon depictions above all else and without giving Amon the benefit of his own campaign, is to totally shift the focus away from all the Terran affairs that dominated WoL and HotS and have the Hybrids threat be front and centre. Mengsk should've been dealt with early, possibly in WoL or very early in HotS, in order to focus on the universal threat of Amon. As it is, the trilogy when seen as a whole doesn't seem to know whether it wants to be about local and comparatively small Terran affairs or the grandiose, mystical Xel'Naga God/cycle stuff. What with two installments being about the "small stuff" (Terran) and one installment about the "big stuff" (Xel'Naga/Amon) and that the side-tracks of Zeratul's visions in WoL and the Primal Zerg in HotS seemingly being shoved in without making much sense (although the latter actually serves to move the plot mechanically at the least), it seriously makes you wonder what their priorities were when developing this "trilogy".

[DarthYam]

This is actually part of the issue. Rohana's sole purpose in the story is to give an info dump on Amon's motivation. It's exposition for the sake of exposition.

Sc1's Overmind is the sort antagonist of the same mould that Amon is cut from in that both are sci-fi archetypes of "aliens beyond normal-human comprehension". However, the difference is we get a peek at the Overmind in its element and get a chance to understand it. Granted, whether it ultimately worked is subjective but it is mightily helpful in getting a feel of it's motivation. Without it, the Zerg are really just some big bad to be defeated like Amon is. Case in point, is that if all we had to go on in Sc1 (as in no Zerg campaing) was Zeratul's and Tassadar's assessment of the Overmind's motivation (like it is with Rohana doing this to Amon in LotV), than the Overmind would clearly not be as memorable as it was. The Overmind's portrayal is partly the reason why Zerg is my Sc favourite race lorewise.

The same can be said for the UED since whilst they were more obviously shoe-horned in as antagonists out-of-nowhere, they were made memorable through the depictions of DuGalle and Stukov.



You didn't stipulate that restriction of keeping the key plot points at first when you asked about how Amon should have been portrayed. Even then, the key point of Kerrigan's redemption that you note is a dubious one in that it only occurs with any clarity in LotV. HotS is clearly not about Kerrigan's redemption and if it was supposed to be about that, it's terrible writing because of the mixed messages it gave.

Still, the problem with Sc2 and the paucity of Amon's depiction is largely to do with the fundamental aspect that Sc2 is not really a cohesive trilogy. WoL and HotS are clearly linked what with them largely being about Terran affairs whilst LotV is off on it's own tangent being somewhat disparate in comparison to the previous two. When followed sequentially, LotV sticks out like a sore thumb because it's story can actually occur and work without having to play or have knowledge of the previous two entries. WoL and HotS don't really inform you much about the situation leading up to LotV, since the one thing that does (the artifact plot device in which the whole story hinges around) came out of nowhere anyway in WoL and was in possession of the "evil force" already (Moebius and Tal'Darim).

The only conceivable way to improve this (nothing can truly fix the shambles in how this trilogy is constructed), with the aim being to reinforce Amon depictions above all else and without giving Amon the benefit of his own campaign, is to totally shift the focus away from all the Terran affairs that dominated WoL and HotS and have the Hybrids threat be front and centre. Mengsk should've been dealt with early, possibly in WoL or very early in HotS, in order to focus on the universal threat of Amon. As it is, the trilogy when seen as a whole doesn't seem to know whether it wants to be about local and comparatively small Terran affairs or the grandiose, mystical Xel'Naga God/cycle stuff. What with two installments being about the "small stuff" (Terran) and one installment about the "big stuff" (Xel'Naga/Amon) and that the side-tracks of Zeratul's visions in WoL and the Primal Zerg in HotS seemingly being shoved in without making much sense (although the latter actually serves to move the plot mechanically at the least), it seriously makes you wonder what their priorities were when developing this "trilogy".


Interesting. Mengsk should have been eliminated early on. His threat was necessary during the beginning....only for Amon to surface as the true threat. But yeah I think Heart was where things really stumbled. Kerrigan's inner conflict should have been utilized more maturely and Duran and the hybrids should have been the final boss. I imagined that early on the Tal'darim and Amon's forces basically invade Korhal and destroy Mengsk; the hybrids are their investment and they need the dominion's infrastructure to keep the project moving.

Skygeirr would be a better climax; Duran is defeated and killed but the battle is not over.

[Turalyon]

^ Yeah, that is more cohesive than what we got. Funny thing about all that I've said is that I've said all of this before... even before HotS actually came out.

HotS needed to be connective tissue between WoL and LotV in order to make it a trilogy and it fails at that. In other words, it isn't a very good "middle" of the story if we want to look at the trilogy as one story, much in the same way how WoL has a very poor "middle" of it's standalone story as well. Ironically though, the narrative structure of HotS as a standalone story is much better than WoL as a standalone - it flowed and maintained focus better than WoL.

[ragnarok]

^ Yeah, that is more cohesive than what we got. Funny thing about all that I've said is that I've said all of this before... even before HotS actually came out.

HotS needed to be connective tissue between WoL and LotV in order to make it a trilogy and it fails at that. In other words, it isn't a very good "middle" of the story if we want to look at the trilogy as one story, much in the same way how WoL has a very poor "middle" of it's standalone story as well. Ironically though, the narrative structure of HotS as a standalone story is much better than WoL as a standalone - it flowed and maintained focus better than WoL.

WoL wasn't MEANT to be as focused because in HotS, Kerrigan at least had a straightforward goal in merely reuniting the swarm and dealing with Mengsk, nothing complex.

In comparison in WoL, Raynor was lost as to what he was supposed to do because he hadn't made progress against Mengsk in the last 4 years. It's not like HE knew the adjutant on Tarsonis would reveal Mengsk's war crimes and everything. With the Zerg invasion, he said it himself there's no way to stop the invasion with only a single capital ship and a handful of volunteers. Even after Media Blitz, the Raiders were still relatively weak, so Raynor was still lost as to what he was supposed to do on the invasion.

Only when Valerian told him about the artifact did this mentality change, and a straightforward goal came up.

[DarthYam]

WoL wasn't MEANT to be as focused because in HotS, Kerrigan at least had a straightforward goal in merely reuniting the swarm and dealing with Mengsk, nothing complex.

In comparison in WoL, Raynor was lost as to what he was supposed to do because he hadn't made progress against Mengsk in the last 4 years. It's not like HE knew the adjutant on Tarsonis would reveal Mengsk's war crimes and everything. With the Zerg invasion, he said it himself there's no way to stop the invasion with only a single capital ship and a handful of volunteers. Even after Media Blitz, the Raiders were still relatively weak, so Raynor was still lost as to what he was supposed to do on the invasion.

Only when Valerian told him about the artifact did this mentality change, and a straightforward goal came up.

As flawed as Her Body's Plaything was, there was a lot to like. Kerrigan was consistently portrayed as trying to achieve redemption while still being Zerg. The OCs (a trend I usually despise with a passion) actually worked as characters, and even though Amon and his crew aren't overly in it, their presence is still felt. It's like how in Mass Effect the reapers take three games but when they come DAMN do they make their impact felt.

I think that at least Amon's forces should have started to take a more direct hand in Heart; we meet the Tal'darim armies and see the hybrids; Mengsk would be a disk one final boss, at which point Duran or Ulrezaj takes over as the big bad.

[Turalyon]

WoL wasn't MEANT to be as focused

Source? I know WoL hasn't much in the way of a narrative but to say that it was actually and intentionally done that way beggars belief.


In comparison in WoL, Raynor was lost as to what he was supposed to do because he hadn't made progress against Mengsk in the last 4 years.

And yet he instantly makes up for this by "kicking his revolution into overdrive" in the very first cutscene and makes astounding progress against the Dominion from the get-go.... only for it to ultimately end up as a sidetrack... with nothing of consequence happening to the Dominion whatsoever... but the frickin' QoB is bought down low easily instead without much leadup. There's some serious whiplash going on in there.


Only when Valerian told him about the artifact did this mentality change, and a straightforward goal came up.

This occurs around the time the final third of WoL begins and it comes out of nowhere. The rest of the meandering narrative (if one can call it that) leading up to this point then just abruptly stops and gets ignored. As such, WoL has a very poor "middle" in its story, such that it's like the narrative only truly starts at the plot point quoted above (or rather, starts again but on a different tangent?) only for it to end a few missions later.

[TheEconomist]

Oh you poor, poor bastards. I will have solved world hunger before this debate is settled.

(Never.)

[ragnarok]

As flawed as Her Body's Plaything was, there was a lot to like. Kerrigan was consistently portrayed as trying to achieve redemption while still being Zerg. The OCs (a trend I usually despise with a passion) actually worked as characters, and even though Amon and his crew aren't overly in it, their presence is still felt. It's like how in Mass Effect the reapers take three games but when they come DAMN do they make their impact felt.

I think that at least Amon's forces should have started to take a more direct hand in Heart; we meet the Tal'darim armies and see the hybrids; Mengsk would be a disk one final boss, at which point Duran or Ulrezaj takes over as the big bad.

Same here. I had given Blackhole1 a LOT of suggestions and everything, I just felt he made too many fluffy moments into the fic. The whole fic had too much comedy, when it's supposed to be all serious business.

It's really hard to say if Amon's forces should have taken a more direct hand in HotS or not. Remember, we don't know if when Amon was revived, he was at full strength or not. It's entirely possible that the regular Xel'Naga put him in a place in the void to sap his strength, and as a result only as LotV began did he regain enough power to start doing things himself

- - - Updated - - -



This occurs around the time the final third of WoL begins and it comes out of nowhere. The rest of the meandering narrative (if one can call it that) leading up to this point then just abruptly stops and gets ignored. As such, WoL has a very poor "middle" in its story, such that it's like the narrative only truly starts at the plot point quoted above (or rather, starts again but on a different tangent?) only for it to end a few missions later.

You know, speaking of the artifact when Valerian was telling Raynor, I DID always wonder why he couldn't think of this much sooner.

Remember, after you use the Ihan crystal, if Dr. Hanson is still on the ship, she would tell him that this could suck the life right of a Protoss. Makes me wonder if Raynor ever suspected the same could hold true for the Zerg right then and there.

[Turalyon]

Oh you poor, poor bastards. I will have solved world hunger before this debate is settled.

Heh, what can I say? Sometimes Rag's non-sequiturs are just too hard to ignore.

[ragnarok]

Heh, what can I say? Sometimes Rag's non-sequiturs are just too hard to ignore.

His version of solving the world hunger issue is merely to legalize cannibalism, I don't think that counts as a smart idea.

[Sheliek]

His version of solving the world hunger issue is merely to legalize cannibalism, I don't think that counts as a smart idea.

Freshly dead, healthy specimens, and don't eat the brain. Any problem after that is entirely subjective and therefore of no concern in an enlightened society.

[DDay]

basically, take whatever ragnarok says and DON'T do that, and you'll do fine in whatever rework y'all do

[ragnarok]

basically, take whatever ragnarok says and DON'T do that, and you'll do fine in whatever rework y'all do

Somehow I doubt that, DDay

[TheEconomist]

His version of solving the world hunger issue is merely to legalize cannibalism, I don't think that counts as a smart idea.

Damn, am I that transparent?

[Aldrius]

I'm so getting huge flak for this post.

Okay. In as succinct a way as possible, here's what I think the problems are, and how I'd fix them.

WoL

1) Jim is way too much of a super hero. In fact, all the protagonists are. When everyone's meeting up for the final battle in Into the Void it just feels like Wonder Woman called up the rest of the Justice League to go fight a really wimpy version of Darkseid or something. So I'd probably fix that. What saved Raynor from being boring/stale in the original StarCraft (and Brood War) is that he was used pretty sparingly, and when he was used he wasn't sickeningly successful at everything (in fact he failed a lot and made plenty of mistakes). I'm not sure WoL allows for that, but basically I think if Metzen had actually been writing the game and wasn't getting stonewalled by his team we'd have seen a much more dynamic Raynor character.

2) WoL in general is just so... soft. There's some fun plot lines but most of the subplots are pretty weak. Nothing really feels impactful enough and everything being so anthology based and not building on itself is pretty weak. Too many one-off planets. Also a lot of the plotting which was actually interesting just didn't get enough build-up/pay off. Tychus is interesting, but he really doesn't do much of anything outside of telling Raynor about artifacts and piloting the Odin. The whole revelation that he's working for Mengsk is revealed right at the beginning pretty much, and then doesn't come into play at all until the last cutscene.

3) Valerian is boring. For one of the big new selling points of the campaign Valerian is just SO dull. It seems like they were trying to make him ambiguous or mysterious but he just isn't. He's just... absurdly vague. It feels like he's trying to hide something, but in actuality isn't really hiding anything. So... I'd just write him better probably. Maybe have him actually be up to something. Maybe a plot which spans multiple games.

4) This one's the big one. The main dramatic thrust. Through out the story, the big question is... is Raynor actually going to go through on his promise to kill Kerrigan? It's not expressly stated but there's a lot of scenes referencing it and showcasing this fact. Then... they reveal the prophecy and the whole choice is pretty much taken out of Raynor's hands. If you kill Kerrigan; you ensure the end of all existence. So Raynor basically has no choice and the whole subplot is ruined.

5) For that matter, the existence of a prophecy and Zeratul's whole subplot is just absolutely atrocious. Prophecies are lazy, lazy writing and they take all the agency and authenticity out of a character's choices and decisions and they become nothing more than roles playing out a preordained storyline. And that's especially evident in this. Zeratul is also massively uninteresting after the first mission (while I hate the cutscene, I actually like that first cave mission as Zeratul, it's really fun).

6) And then the Overmind/Tassadar thing. I like the idea of going back to commune with the Overmind to find out something about the Xel'Naga, but the specifics are pretty bad. And I really didn't need to see Tassadar again.

WoL is just so patronizing.

But unlike Heart, it actually kind of knows what it is. Heart is just a mess.

1) It's just so... lukewarm. It's pretty much the exact same plot as Queen of Blades but stretched to be twice as long stuffed full of nonsense with a way more narrow focus and a really bipolar protagonist who can't make up her mind about what her personality is, who she is, and what she wants. Brood War Kerrigan was decisive, direct, knew what she wanted, and knew how to get it.

2) Mengsk is a lame villain. Mengsk was better as the amoral side character. An unpredictable element. Having him... I guess team up with Narud to make hybrid and whatnot just made him feel way too out of his element and made him a really one dimensional antagonist. He's just a slimy bastard. I don't wanna keep making comparisons to Brood War but that game knew to deal with him early because it knew that he just didn't have the legs to be a major antagonist for too long (also Brood War liked to change things up more dramatically and quicker than SC2 does).

3) Just... the supporting cast is a mixed bag ranging from cool/funny (Abathur) to what the hell were they thinking (Izsha) to please stop talking and get off my screen now (Dehaka). Could have been a lot stronger, and there probably could have been a much wider mix of different races involved. Again in... um... some other games, you got to see the different factions interacting with one another and there was more of a layer of complexity to things, where you got to see different perspectives. In all three of these products you're playing as a superhero with a slightly different flavour than the other superheroes who is fighting the EVIL Dominion, or the EVIL Tal'darim or the EVIL Amon and his Hybrids or the EVIL Renegade Zerg. That's pretty much universally what your enemies are. It just gets a little monotonous. Even if they tried to break up the mission structure (which I thought they did a crummy job at anyway).

4) The continuing issue with the Kerrigan plot, and just her whole interaction with Raynor feels so... artificial. They weren't even that chummy in Rebel Yell. Now, after she's slaughtered billions of people and killed friends he's cared about he's totally okay with running away with her and cracking wise? I get that they wanted to tell a romance story but it's lathered on pretty thick and not that well told. It also completely removes any culpability on Kerrigan's part as the Queen of the Zerg and then pretty much lets her have her cake and eat it too. Same with Zeratul and in LotV, Artanis, these people are just totally forgiving of Kerrigan for literally no reason other than a prophecy said they had to. It's infuriating.

Honestly I have issues with it, but Legacy of the Void is at least a tightly told story and is about something substantial. It doesn't have a heavy handed plot, it doesn't have insultingly bad dialogue or situations. It doesn't boil everything down to a prophecy or a single love story or even a single character (the protagonist is Artanis, and I don't really love him, but I don't dislike him either). Characters have to give things up, characters die (kind of stupidly, but they're people we actually care about and not one-dimensional villains). The new characters and the supporting cast are excellent, and they're not all just nice people that get along with our superhero protagonist. I REALLY don't like how Zeratul dies and it's really melodramatic, but it is pretty well done. I just wish he'd done something in SC2 that I actually cared about and thought was cool. Even the ending is pretty good. It still has some of the issues of WoL/HotS (mainly just... way too much filler, and way too much 'here's an interesting but ultimately pointless concept' like with the Primal Zerg.)

For a lot of these, I think the only really way to 'fix' them was to really just take more time with the storytelling and just... let it flow a little better.

[TheEconomist]

https://media.giphy.com/media/Gjnpx6nps0yS4/giphy.gif

[Aldrius]

I said it in a new way, be quiet. :P

[Nissa]

I'm so getting huge flak for this post.

Okay. In as succinct a way as possible, here's what I think the problems are, and how I'd fix them.

WoL

1) Jim is way too much of a super hero. In fact, all the protagonists are. When everyone's meeting up for the final battle in Into the Void it just feels like Wonder Woman called up the rest of the Justice League to go fight a really wimpy version of Darkseid or something. So I'd probably fix that. What saved Raynor from being boring/stale in the original StarCraft (and Brood War) is that he was used pretty sparingly, and when he was used he wasn't sickeningly successful at everything (in fact he failed a lot and made plenty of mistakes). I'm not sure WoL allows for that, but basically I think if Metzen had actually been writing the game and wasn't getting stonewalled by his team we'd have seen a much more dynamic Raynor character.

Agreed. Also, It felt artificial that Mengsk was so hateful against him. Surely Mengsk's real wrath would have been directed against Kerri, not Jim. Nor am I convinced that Mengsk could make everyone dislike Jim enough to turn him into a criminal, especially since anyone who met Jim would instantly know it's wrong. Antagonizing Raynor reveals Mengsk as a liar, backfiring on him.


2) WoL in general is just so... soft. There's some fun plot lines but most of the subplots are pretty weak. Nothing really feels impactful enough and everything being so anthology based and not building on itself is pretty weak. Too many one-off planets. Also a lot of the plotting which was actually interesting just didn't get enough build-up/pay off. Tychus is interesting, but he really doesn't do much of anything outside of telling Raynor about artifacts and piloting the Odin. The whole revelation that he's working for Mengsk is revealed right at the beginning pretty much, and then doesn't come into play at all until the last cutscene.

Tychus really should have been just a flavor character -- someone to bring the original Starcraft feel, but not have a major impact on the plot. Nor should he have been killed. To me, Tychus felt like the only competent character in the entire trilogy. He had a distinct personality, a great voice actor, and some of the funniest lines. But they screwed it all up by giving him an obtuse plot.


3) Valerian is boring. For one of the big new selling points of the campaign Valerian is just SO dull. It seems like they were trying to make him ambiguous or mysterious but he just isn't. He's just... absurdly vague. It feels like he's trying to hide something, but in actuality isn't really hiding anything. So... I'd just write him better probably. Maybe have him actually be up to something. Maybe a plot which spans multiple games.

That's why I was always so insulted by the notion that "Mengsk's story has been told." Arcturus had a history with Raynor and Kerri, and thus his story is tied with theirs. Valerian feels like a statement by Blizzard that all older people are boring so they have to be "updated" into young people. It's funny, though, because if you read the Dark Templar trilogy, Valerian has the exact same arc: mysterious, possible shadow of his father in the first one, completely and obviously good in the second, and mere function of the plot in the third.


4) This one's the big one. The main dramatic thrust. Through out the story, the big question is... is Raynor actually going to go through on his promise to kill Kerrigan? It's not expressly stated but there's a lot of scenes referencing it and showcasing this fact. Then... they reveal the prophecy and the whole choice is pretty much taken out of Raynor's hands. If you kill Kerrigan; you ensure the end of all existence. So Raynor basically has no choice and the whole subplot is ruined.

5) For that matter, the existence of a prophecy and Zeratul's whole subplot is just absolutely atrocious. Prophecies are lazy, lazy writing and they take all the agency and authenticity out of a character's choices and decisions and they become nothing more than roles playing out a preordained storyline. And that's especially evident in this. Zeratul is also massively uninteresting after the first mission (while I hate the cutscene, I actually like that first cave mission as Zeratul, it's really fun).

6) And then the Overmind/Tassadar thing. I like the idea of going back to commune with the Overmind to find out something about the Xel'Naga, but the specifics are pretty bad. And I really didn't need to see Tassadar again.

WoL is just so patronizing.

I liked the concept of having memory crystal missions. While the plot of them was stupid, the idea of having Protoss missions to play in the Terran campaign is a fun idea and a good distraction.

The less said about Tassadar, the better.


But unlike Heart, it actually kind of knows what it is. Heart is just a mess.

1) It's just so... lukewarm. It's pretty much the exact same plot as Queen of Blades but stretched to be twice as long stuffed full of nonsense with a way more narrow focus and a really bipolar protagonist who can't make up her mind about what her personality is, who she is, and what she wants. Brood War Kerrigan was decisive, direct, knew what she wanted, and knew how to get it.

2) Mengsk is a lame villain. Mengsk was better as the amoral side character. An unpredictable element. Having him... I guess team up with Narud to make hybrid and whatnot just made him feel way too out of his element and made him a really one dimensional antagonist. He's just a slimy bastard. I don't wanna keep making comparisons to Brood War but that game knew to deal with him early because it knew that he just didn't have the legs to be a major antagonist for too long (also Brood War liked to change things up more dramatically and quicker than SC2 does).

3) Just... the supporting cast is a mixed bag ranging from cool/funny (Abathur) to what the hell were they thinking (Izsha) to please stop talking and get off my screen now (Dehaka). Could have been a lot stronger, and there probably could have been a much wider mix of different races involved. Again in... um... some other games, you got to see the different factions interacting with one another and there was more of a layer of complexity to things, where you got to see different perspectives. In all three of these products you're playing as a superhero with a slightly different flavour than the other superheroes who is fighting the EVIL Dominion, or the EVIL Tal'darim or the EVIL Amon and his Hybrids or the EVIL Renegade Zerg. That's pretty much universally what your enemies are. It just gets a little monotonous. Even if they tried to break up the mission structure (which I thought they did a crummy job at anyway).

4) The continuing issue with the Kerrigan plot, and just her whole interaction with Raynor feels so... artificial. They weren't even that chummy in Rebel Yell. Now, after she's slaughtered billions of people and killed friends he's cared about he's totally okay with running away with her and cracking wise? I get that they wanted to tell a romance story but it's lathered on pretty thick and not that well told. It also completely removes any culpability on Kerrigan's part as the Queen of the Zerg and then pretty much lets her have her cake and eat it too. Same with Zeratul and in LotV, Artanis, these people are just totally forgiving of Kerrigan for literally no reason other than a prophecy said they had to. It's infuriating.

Maybe it was a failed attempt to secure the female audience. Or maybe they wanted to be reductionist and reduce the complex Kerri/Jim relationship into simple romance.

I am so sad Mengsk didn't win at the end.


Honestly I have issues with it, but Legacy of the Void is at least a tightly told story and is about something substantial. It doesn't have a heavy handed plot, it doesn't have insultingly bad dialogue or situations. It doesn't boil everything down to a prophecy or a single love story or even a single character (the protagonist is Artanis, and I don't really love him, but I don't dislike him either). Characters have to give things up, characters die (kind of stupidly, but they're people we actually care about and not one-dimensional villains). The new characters and the supporting cast are excellent, and they're not all just nice people that get along with our superhero protagonist. I REALLY don't like how Zeratul dies and it's really melodramatic, but it is pretty well done. I just wish he'd done something in SC2 that I actually cared about and thought was cool. Even the ending is pretty good. It still has some of the issues of WoL/HotS (mainly just... way too much filler, and way too much 'here's an interesting but ultimately pointless concept' like with the Primal Zerg.)

Here's where we disagree. LotV was pretty insulting to the Protoss, reducing them from a unique culture of their own to a far too simplistic "traditional vs modern" conflict. By curbstomping the Khala, they not only destroyed a major unique aspect of Protoss culture, but eliminated the Brood War emphasis on dark and light working together to insure that the Protoss survive. As bad as HotS was, it's so detached from real Starcraft that it's far easier to ignore and laugh at. Because LotV ruined concepts that I loved and permanently changed the status quo of the Protoss, I have no choice but to pay attention to its horrid, insulting character and world destruction.

In short, LotV is a nuke dropped squarely on the Protoss. LotV did to the Protoss what WoL and HotS did to Zeratul.


For a lot of these, I think the only really way to 'fix' them was to really just take more time with the storytelling and just... let it flow a little better.

The way to fix these is to:
1. not destroy the Khala.
2. make the Protoss angry at Zeratul, and show Zeratul suffering real consequences for his actions.
3. eliminate the robot plot.
4. have the Spear of Adun built between the wars, not as some old artifact they randomly decided to use now rather than sooner.
5. somehow arrange conflict between Terran and Protoss.
6. fix up WoL and HotS so that the choices made in those games (mainly in terms of characterization) strengthen rather than weaken the background LotV had to pull from.

The main reason why SC was better than SC2 is tension. There was a lot to be tense about in the first game: first the Protoss attack humans, Confederates are using their citizens for Zerg experiments, Mengsk turns out to be evil, Kerrigan is abducted, Kerrigan is Zerg, Zerg invade Aiur, Protoss have factional strife, Aiur is lost, the UED shows up, Kerrigan curbstomps everyone, and by the time people figure out that the Zerg is the real enemy, the hybrids show up.

In SC2, the tension is shot in favor of action movie/romance/cheap scifi cliches. SC2 needed more interpersonal/interfactional conflict, as well as to be less focused around a protagonist. It would have been far better if we didn't have to follow Raynor/Kerri/Artanis in their respective games, and we could have seen more of the conflicts going on around them. That way the plot would feel less boxed-in.

[DarthYam]

Except Mengsk was ALWAYS a monster. By doing what he did to Tarsonis he did literally the same damn thing they did to Korhal. He says "I will rule this sector or see it burn." for fucks sake. Mengsk was ALWAYS a power hungry monster who was willing to commit atrocities to get what he wanted. He crossed the moral event horizon MANY Times over hence why I cheered when Kerrigan killed him. He's just not bothering to hide his monstrous nature anymore. I think people are over romanticizing his "complexity."

Turalyon suggested merging the Overmind and Tassadar; I would have had that their souls merged, creating a new Xel'Naga. This "Tassamind" is what guides Zeratul to Kerrigan needing to be alive and warning him about the apocalypse coming.

And if anything Brood War STARTED a lot of the cliches that WOL had. The UED appeared out of nowhere rather than focusing on the immediate aftermath of the conflict was one thing, the pyramid was pretty much the keystone with even LESS foreshadowing and usage

[Gradius]

3. eliminate the robot plot.
The most interesting arc in SC2 that might not actually be insulting to fans of sci-fi? No. :P



4. have the Spear of Adun built between the wars, not as some old artifact they randomly decided to use now rather than sooner.

Why would they build something as giant and resource intensive as an arkship after having their civilization nearly vaporized instead of just building more ships/weapons?


The UED appeared out of nowhere rather than focusing on the immediate aftermath of the conflict was one thing
How is that a cliche/problem? Vanilla SC1's conflict had nothing to wrap up. The only loose thread was Kerrigan, which is what BW was all about.


the pyramid was pretty much the keystone with even LESS foreshadowing and usage
If by "less foreshadowing and usage" you mean hamfistedly shoehorned into the entire trilogy to serve every function imaginable, instead of having a clearly defined and unique purpose like any of SC1's plot devices, then sure. I don't think I've seen a lazier plot device than "the artifact" in any single piece of fiction I've ever read.

[DarthYam]

The most interesting arc in SC2 that might not actually be insulting to fans of sci-fi? No. :P


Why would they build something as giant and resource intensive as an arkship after having their civilization nearly vaporized instead of just building more ships/weapons?


How is that a cliche/problem? Vanilla SC1's conflict had nothing to wrap up. The only loose thread was Kerrigan, which is what BW was all about.


If by "less foreshadowing and usage" you mean hamfistedly shoehorned into the entire trilogy to serve every function imaginable, instead of having a clearly defined and unique purpose like any of SC1's plot devices, then sure. I don't think I've seen a lazier plot device than "the artifact" in any single piece of fiction I've ever read.

Arkship: Contingency Plan: They might loose their next homeworld so building an escape plan that can hold their civilization if things go balls up makes sense. It's basically a noah's arc except it holds the entire civilization rather than just two of every animal.

Except that the UED wasn't really neccissary. Mengsk would have been a much better bad guy, using his increased power to try and destroy the other alien races. The Protoss could have been focused on trying to rebuild Aiur and build ties with their brethren (the ending of SC1 implies they won, but at a heavy price.) The UED have a lot of plot holes (like how they were able to spy for centuries, how they learned what was going on so quickly, how they got the fleet and knew about the second overmind etc.) Kerrigan the complicated anti hero would have worked much better and we could have a bitter end; Kerrigan gets her revenge on Mengsk but humanity is thrown into chaos.....just as Duran and his hybrids prepare to make their move.

The pyramid in brood war was VERY similar to the artifact in that both were zerg killing weapons; except that the pyramid involves a lot of silliness about going to char (which the protoss have supposedly never gone too) and vanishes from the story after the first time it's used up until the legacy of the void campaign. The Artifact is slowly built up over the WOL campaign and at least one of the other purposes (being used to revive Amon) actually worked as a major "oh fuck" moment in that it's a major double edged sword.

[DarthYam]

I'm so getting huge flak for this post.

Okay. In as succinct a way as possible, here's what I think the problems are, and how I'd fix them.

WoL

1) Jim is way too much of a super hero. In fact, all the protagonists are. When everyone's meeting up for the final battle in Into the Void it just feels like Wonder Woman called up the rest of the Justice League to go fight a really wimpy version of Darkseid or something. So I'd probably fix that. What saved Raynor from being boring/stale in the original StarCraft (and Brood War) is that he was used pretty sparingly, and when he was used he wasn't sickeningly successful at everything (in fact he failed a lot and made plenty of mistakes). I'm not sure WoL allows for that, but basically I think if Metzen had actually been writing the game and wasn't getting stonewalled by his team we'd have seen a much more dynamic Raynor character.

2) WoL in general is just so... soft. There's some fun plot lines but most of the subplots are pretty weak. Nothing really feels impactful enough and everything being so anthology based and not building on itself is pretty weak. Too many one-off planets. Also a lot of the plotting which was actually interesting just didn't get enough build-up/pay off. Tychus is interesting, but he really doesn't do much of anything outside of telling Raynor about artifacts and piloting the Odin. The whole revelation that he's working for Mengsk is revealed right at the beginning pretty much, and then doesn't come into play at all until the last cutscene.

3) Valerian is boring. For one of the big new selling points of the campaign Valerian is just SO dull. It seems like they were trying to make him ambiguous or mysterious but he just isn't. He's just... absurdly vague. It feels like he's trying to hide something, but in actuality isn't really hiding anything. So... I'd just write him better probably. Maybe have him actually be up to something. Maybe a plot which spans multiple games.

4) This one's the big one. The main dramatic thrust. Through out the story, the big question is... is Raynor actually going to go through on his promise to kill Kerrigan? It's not expressly stated but there's a lot of scenes referencing it and showcasing this fact. Then... they reveal the prophecy and the whole choice is pretty much taken out of Raynor's hands. If you kill Kerrigan; you ensure the end of all existence. So Raynor basically has no choice and the whole subplot is ruined.

5) For that matter, the existence of a prophecy and Zeratul's whole subplot is just absolutely atrocious. Prophecies are lazy, lazy writing and they take all the agency and authenticity out of a character's choices and decisions and they become nothing more than roles playing out a preordained storyline. And that's especially evident in this. Zeratul is also massively uninteresting after the first mission (while I hate the cutscene, I actually like that first cave mission as Zeratul, it's really fun).

6) And then the Overmind/Tassadar thing. I like the idea of going back to commune with the Overmind to find out something about the Xel'Naga, but the specifics are pretty bad. And I really didn't need to see Tassadar again.

WoL is just so patronizing.

But unlike Heart, it actually kind of knows what it is. Heart is just a mess.

1) It's just so... lukewarm. It's pretty much the exact same plot as Queen of Blades but stretched to be twice as long stuffed full of nonsense with a way more narrow focus and a really bipolar protagonist who can't make up her mind about what her personality is, who she is, and what she wants. Brood War Kerrigan was decisive, direct, knew what she wanted, and knew how to get it.

2) Mengsk is a lame villain. Mengsk was better as the amoral side character. An unpredictable element. Having him... I guess team up with Narud to make hybrid and whatnot just made him feel way too out of his element and made him a really one dimensional antagonist. He's just a slimy bastard. I don't wanna keep making comparisons to Brood War but that game knew to deal with him early because it knew that he just didn't have the legs to be a major antagonist for too long (also Brood War liked to change things up more dramatically and quicker than SC2 does).

3) Just... the supporting cast is a mixed bag ranging from cool/funny (Abathur) to what the hell were they thinking (Izsha) to please stop talking and get off my screen now (Dehaka). Could have been a lot stronger, and there probably could have been a much wider mix of different races involved. Again in... um... some other games, you got to see the different factions interacting with one another and there was more of a layer of complexity to things, where you got to see different perspectives. In all three of these products you're playing as a superhero with a slightly different flavour than the other superheroes who is fighting the EVIL Dominion, or the EVIL Tal'darim or the EVIL Amon and his Hybrids or the EVIL Renegade Zerg. That's pretty much universally what your enemies are. It just gets a little monotonous. Even if they tried to break up the mission structure (which I thought they did a crummy job at anyway).

4) The continuing issue with the Kerrigan plot, and just her whole interaction with Raynor feels so... artificial. They weren't even that chummy in Rebel Yell. Now, after she's slaughtered billions of people and killed friends he's cared about he's totally okay with running away with her and cracking wise? I get that they wanted to tell a romance story but it's lathered on pretty thick and not that well told. It also completely removes any culpability on Kerrigan's part as the Queen of the Zerg and then pretty much lets her have her cake and eat it too. Same with Zeratul and in LotV, Artanis, these people are just totally forgiving of Kerrigan for literally no reason other than a prophecy said they had to. It's infuriating.

Honestly I have issues with it, but Legacy of the Void is at least a tightly told story and is about something substantial. It doesn't have a heavy handed plot, it doesn't have insultingly bad dialogue or situations. It doesn't boil everything down to a prophecy or a single love story or even a single character (the protagonist is Artanis, and I don't really love him, but I don't dislike him either). Characters have to give things up, characters die (kind of stupidly, but they're people we actually care about and not one-dimensional villains). The new characters and the supporting cast are excellent, and they're not all just nice people that get along with our superhero protagonist. I REALLY don't like how Zeratul dies and it's really melodramatic, but it is pretty well done. I just wish he'd done something in SC2 that I actually cared about and thought was cool. Even the ending is pretty good. It still has some of the issues of WoL/HotS (mainly just... way too much filler, and way too much 'here's an interesting but ultimately pointless concept' like with the Primal Zerg.)

For a lot of these, I think the only really way to 'fix' them was to really just take more time with the storytelling and just... let it flow a little better.

Brood War Kerigan was the OPPOSITE of deep though. I'll just quote Hawki on the subject

1.) "The examples you're citing are examples of a developed character, but not a multi-dimensional character. A developed character has depth of character(ization). A multi-dimensional character has numerous different facets of that characterization. Kerrigan gets singular development in BW bar mission 5 and the green text, and both are irrelevant to her character. Her motives are clear, there's no regret, no looking back, her goal is simply to gain power, and even if you argue that vengeance was in her plan all along, it's only in the spotlight for one mission and never brought up again." She doesn't change, she's basically evil for the sake of it and given that she was more complicated in rebel yell (she did have noble traits) saying "oh she just chose to be evil entirely of her own will" is stupid writing.

"Except the only person she wants vengeance on is Mengsk. There's no reason for her to take vengeance against any of the other characters. Her actions against them only operate on the macro level. She takes pleasure in it, but it isn't driving her motivations. Motivations that are simple, and are based on obtaining power."

"So, on one hand, we have BW Kerrigan who sings the same tune the entire game, doesn't change as a character, and is singuarly focussed on one goal. In contrast, we have HotS Kerrigan, who's torn between morality and the need for revenge, who manages to shed the emotional burdens by the end of the game, and displays aspects of her personality that are varied. By definition, HotS Kerrigan is more multi-dimensional."

"Except BW does have it both ways, or at least tries to. Kerrigan's portrayed as this the evil bitch you describe, and gets some character development that's barely relevant. HotS Kerrigan has an unbalance of the facets described, but she still develops down those lines. Kerrigan at the end of HotS is not the same Kerrigan at the start of HotS. BW Kerrigan doesn't have that luxury of character development."

"Such as? Kerrigan as a Ghost is generally reserved, willing to follow orders, generally straight to the point in dialogue. After infestation, she becomes abrasive, defiant, and revels in the death she causes. The two characters are nothing alike. True, it could be said that infestation brought out a side of Kerrigan she suppressed, but it's a change caused by an outside force, not an internal one."

Kerrigan in BW was never impressive. Heart of the swarm has problems but Kerrigan actually EVOLVES over the story. She changes as a character and is a different person at the end.

I think people who hold Kerrigan as a great villain are looking with rose colored glasses.

[Turalyon]

LotV was pretty insulting to the Protoss, reducing them from a unique culture of their own to a far too simplistic "traditional vs modern" conflict.

As insulting as the Protoss being essentially reduced into Terrans? The only thing that's different now is their physical appearance really.


Because LotV ruined concepts that I loved and permanently changed the status quo of the Protoss

Much like how BW changed the status quo of the Protoss?


Except Mengsk was ALWAYS a monster. By doing what he did to Tarsonis he did literally the same damn thing they did to Korhal. He says "I will rule this sector or see it burn." for fucks sake. Mengsk was ALWAYS a power hungry monster who was willing to commit atrocities to get what he wanted. He crossed the moral event horizon MANY Times over hence why I cheered when Kerrigan killed him. He's just not bothering to hide his monstrous nature anymore. I think people are over romanticizing his "complexity."

Careful, your accusation of over-romanticism regarding Mengsk can easily be countered by an accusation of you over-simplifying/generalising Mengsk as a "always a monster" just because of one scene.


Kerrigan in BW was never impressive.

I think people who hold Kerrigan as a great villain are looking with rose colored glasses.

I disagree. A character doesn't necessarily have to change in order to be compelling. BW Kerrigan is an example of someone who has been through inexplicable abuse (first through the Confeds, then Mengsk and then the Overmind) and betrayal (by someone she had trusted and looked up to - Mengsk) being finally given free reign (death of the Overmind) and having total power (through infestation). That is the source of her "evil" in BW. She is flaunting her power so that no-one will ever have a chance to abuse or control her ever again, no matter who they are and what intentions they have. She trusted Mengsk and look where that led her so she can't bring herself to trust anyone else. This change is fully understandable and makes sense even had she not been influenced by infestation/Amon. Her corruption can be interpreted as either internal, external or both. It's this ambiguity that makes BW Kerrigan a complex character.

[DarthYam]

As insulting as the Protoss being essentially reduced into Terrans? The only thing that's different now is their physical appearance really.



Much like how BW changed the status quo of the Protoss?



Careful, your accusation of over-romanticism regarding Mengsk can easily be countered by an accusation of you over-simplifying/generalising Mengsk as a "always a monster" just because of one scene.



I disagree. A character doesn't necessarily have to change in order to be compelling. BW Kerrigan is an example of someone who has been through inexplicable abuse (first through the Confeds, then Mengsk and then the Overmind) and betrayal (by someone she had trusted and looked up to - Mengsk) being finally given free reign (death of the Overmind) and having total power (through infestation). That is the source of her "evil" in BW. She is flaunting her power so that no-one will ever have a chance to abuse or control her ever again, no matter who they are and what intentions they have. She trusted Mengsk and look where that led her so she can't bring herself to trust anyone else. This change is fully understandable and makes sense even had she not been influenced by infestation/Amon. Her corruption can be interpreted as either internal, external or both. It's this ambiguity that makes BW Kerrigan a complex character.

Kerrigan just did not come across as interesting to me. She was relatively complex, but she's a comic book villain; hurting those who never wronged. The point is that the infestation helped address the change.

Someone responded on an editorial
Right at the beginning you rightfully find Kerrigan to be a complex character. Now why would a complex human, given great powers, immediately turn into a comicbook super villain? Even if we accept your claim that the mind of the being that was the Queen of Blades was not mostly the work of the Overmind and still very much the human being Sarah Kerrigan, why would she completely forsake the possibility of salvation, the hope of ever experiencing affection or love again? If she always was the psychotic being you make her out to be she wouldn't have been able to experience a connection with Jim - and even the loyalty and devotion to Mengsk, who pretty much was a father figure for her.
Now I understand the fascination with the brood war character, she certainly was a badass villain, but what I'm trying to say is that Blizzard is not far off the road here, that this is not the work of "evil new bliz" but very much attached to the sc1 storywork already. The salvation comes of course in the unlucky form of a deus ex machina plot device, yet Kerrigans transformation is absolutely believable. There she is again, the young woman that experienced deep distress on Antiga prime, facing the ethical conflict between sacrificing millions of lives and the command of her savior who (apparently) always knows whats best and cares deeply about her. That is not the reaction of a cold blooded killer."

Kerrigan just jumped to "comic book villain way to easily". Things like controlling Raszegal, mocking Zeratul, blowing up telemetros were just pointless douchebaggery. Hence the "comic book" villain

[ragnarok]

I disagree. A character doesn't necessarily have to change in order to be compelling. BW Kerrigan is an example of someone who has been through inexplicable abuse (first through the Confeds, then Mengsk and then the Overmind) and betrayal (by someone she had trusted and looked up to - Mengsk) being finally given free reign (death of the Overmind) and having total power (through infestation). That is the source of her "evil" in BW. She is flaunting her power so that no-one will ever have a chance to abuse or control her ever again, no matter who they are and what intentions they have. She trusted Mengsk and look where that led her so she can't bring herself to trust anyone else. This change is fully understandable and makes sense even had she not been influenced by infestation/Amon. Her corruption can be interpreted as either internal, external or both. It's this ambiguity that makes BW Kerrigan a complex character.

That's not supposed to be surprising. After so many years of abuse, wouldn't you so similarly? That's why it made sense back then in the BW days even when Amon's influence wasn't part of the picture. She still went too far, though. Nevertheless, compared to Mengsk, ultimately in the end Kerrigan learned, whereas he remained deluded to the point of his death. The main problem was that it was too late to escape retribution.

- - - Updated - - -


If by "less foreshadowing and usage" you mean hamfistedly shoehorned into the entire trilogy to serve every function imaginable, instead of having a clearly defined and unique purpose like any of SC1's plot devices, then sure. I don't think I've seen a lazier plot device than "the artifact" in any single piece of fiction I've ever read.

The artifact was NOT a lazy plot device, Gradius. It was something the Xel'Naga used for the role of their ascension. That being said however, in the SC universe's case, the Xel'Naga got REALLY lucky because the two races happened to be in the same sector of the galaxy, and not opposite ends of the universe. I always wondered if the Xel'Naga made more than ONE Keystone, given such a possibility

[Turalyon]

She was relatively complex, but she's a comic book villain; hurting those who never wronged.

How is that an indictment? All villains hurt those who never wronged (the hero notwithstanding) not just comic book ones. Also, comic book villains can be complex so I don't know where your generalisations are going there.


The point is that the infestation helped address the change.

I never denied this. Like I said, her evil/corruption in BW can be interpreted as being mostly external (the infestation), internal (her betrayal by Mengsk and being enslaved in three different ways: unconsciously/unwillingly from the Confeds, then from her own willingness with Mengsk and then finally, willingly with the Overmind broke her mind) or an equal mix of both. I do question the weight of whether it's all wholly internal or external because there's enough ambiguity where you could argue it either way endlessly. That makes her complex.


Even if we accept your claim that the mind of the being that was the Queen of Blades was not mostly the work of the Overmind and still very much the human being Sarah Kerrigan, why would she completely forsake the possibility of salvation, the hope of ever experiencing affection or love again?

This person clearly has no idea how an abuse victims' mind works.


If she always was the psychotic being you make her out to be she wouldn't have been able to experience a connection with Jim - and even the loyalty and devotion to Mengsk, who pretty much was a father figure for her.

Nice generalisation. Being sociopathic or psychopathic does not preclude one from experiencing connections with other people. The former can feel them whilst the latter pretends.


There she is again, the young woman that experienced deep distress on Antiga prime, facing the ethical conflict between sacrificing millions of lives and the command of her savior who (apparently) always knows whats best and cares deeply about her. That is not the reaction of a cold blooded killer."

Oh, like how human Kerrigan handwrings at the morality of doing/not something but goes along with it anyway resulting in the deaths of a lot of tonne of innocent people? Psi emitters are used twice in Rebel Yell but she tacitly justifies it by shifting the responsibility of it on someone else ("Arcturus will come around. I know he will" she says at the start of New Gettysburg). If a "good" person does nothing to stop "evil", how and what good are they really?


Things like controlling Raszegal, mocking Zeratul, blowing up telemetros were just pointless douchebaggery. Hence the "comic book" villain

Controlling Raszagal and blowing up Talematros was not "pointless douchebaggery", it was done to manipulate the Protoss into doing what she wanted them to do and when. It had plot purpose. On the other hand, mocking Zeratul was pointless douchebaggery though...unless one wants to interpret that as her wanting others to "feel her pain" in a misery-loves-company sort of way since Zeratul reflects an air of nobility that she once had and lost.

[ragnarok]

This person clearly has no idea how an abuse victims' mind works.


This is something you have to experience (which I personally have). That's why I was sympathetic to Kerrigan's character, but even I felt Blizzard took this way too far in SC2. It was better in BW because she wanted control.


On the other hand, mocking Zeratul was pointless douchebaggery though...unless one wants to interpret that as her wanting others to "feel her pain" in a misery-loves-company sort of way since Zeratul reflects an air of nobility that she once had and lost.

That was more to rub further insult to him to make it seem like there's nothing he can do since she already won. Naturally this backfired on her in SC2, one of the reasons why a lot of people had wanted the ending to have her be killed by Zeratul with the whole "Raszagal sends her regards."

[Gradius]

SC1 Kerrigan is the definition of an interesting static character. DarthYam is basically arguing that a character is only well-written if they change, which is...wrong. But even a comic book villain would be superior to HoTS Kerrigan which pretends to be good but goes on a mass murder spree while retaining the support of everyone else. The writers clearly expect us to root for her, and it insults the intelligence of anyone playing.



Except that the UED wasn't really neccissary. Mengsk would have been a much better bad guy, using his increased power to try and destroy the other alien races. The Protoss could have been focused on trying to rebuild Aiur and build ties with their brethren (the ending of SC1 implies they won, but at a heavy price.) The UED have a lot of plot holes (like how they were able to spy for centuries, how they learned what was going on so quickly, how they got the fleet and knew about the second overmind etc.) Kerrigan the complicated anti hero would have worked much better and we could have a bitter end; Kerrigan gets her revenge on Mengsk but humanity is thrown into chaos.....just as Duran and his hybrids prepare to make their move.

The pyramid in brood war was VERY similar to the artifact in that both were zerg killing weapons; except that the pyramid involves a lot of silliness about going to char (which the protoss have supposedly never gone too) and vanishes from the story after the first time it's used up until the legacy of the void campaign. The Artifact is slowly built up over the WOL campaign and at least one of the other purposes (being used to revive Amon) actually worked as a major "oh fuck" moment in that it's a major double edged sword.
1) You don't seem to understand the definition of a plot hole. Something as reasonable as being able to "spy for centuries" is only a plothole if stated somewhere else that they can't. The UED is way more advanced.

2) I don't subscribe to the idea that good storytelling = "you must reuse everything". Shoehorning cameos where they don't belong or drawing out an arc that should have been over ages ago isn't great writing. The fact that they repurposed the artifact to do everything and can't decide what the hell it's supposed to be makes it inferior to even something as basic as the psi emitter, which simply did its one job.

3) Oh fuck moments are only good when you can potentially use logic and critical thinking to piece them together from facts earlier on in the story. You know, a revelation that makes sense in retrospect. Random magic consequences coming out of the blue may be an "oh fuck" moment, but they're still shit writing. This is why most plot devices tend to have only one singular function.



The artifact was NOT a lazy plot device, Gradius. It was something the Xel'Naga used for the role of their ascension. That being said however, in the SC universe's case, the Xel'Naga got REALLY lucky because the two races happened to be in the same sector of the galaxy, and not opposite ends of the universe. I always wondered if the Xel'Naga made more than ONE Keystone, given such a possibility
Things the artifact does:

Deinfests Kerrigan
Destroys waves of Zerg
Used to revive Amon
Extracts Amon from the Khala
Leads the chosen races to Ulnar
Imprisons Kerrigan/Xel'Naga

Instead of having to use their brains to figure out how these things would be accomplished individually, the writers just to get to cop-out to "sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" and have the artifact do everything including and up to making scrambled eggs & toast. Almost like they were afraid of reusing assets and having to make a new generic fantasy magic device.

[KaiserStratosTygo]

"Why would they build something as giant and resource intensive as an arkship after having their civilization nearly vaporized instead of just building more ships/weapons?"

Makes a fuckton more sense then them randomly coming across ancient tech they "forgot" about.

[Gradius]

"Why would they build something as giant and resource intensive as an arkship after having their civilization nearly vaporized instead of just building more ships/weapons?"

Makes a fuckton more sense then them randomly coming across ancient tech they "forgot" about.
They don't have access to it. They spent 4 years planning to invade Aiur.

Carriers and motherships can already contain large civilian populations. A ship that houses even more of those ships is an extravagance that can only be built during a golden age where you have too much money, not when your civilization is on the verge of destruction.

[KaiserStratosTygo]

They don't have access to it. They spent 4 years planning to invade Aiur.

Carriers and motherships can already contain large civilian populations. A ship that houses even more of those ships is an extravagance that can only be built during a golden age where you have too much money, not when your civilization is on the verge of destruction.

Not saying it makes sense in general, just more so than "We have all this shit we never used for some retarded reason"

I agree with you.

[TheEconomist]

Wow, even I feel like starting an 'I <3 SC2' thread.

[ragnarok]

Wow, even I feel like starting an 'I <3 SC2' thread.

I won't believe that even when pigs DO fly

[ragnarok]

Things the artifact does:

Deinfests Kerrigan
Destroys waves of Zerg
Used to revive Amon
Extracts Amon from the Khala
Leads the chosen races to Ulnar
Imprisons Kerrigan/Xel'Naga

Instead of having to use their brains to figure out how these things would be accomplished individually, the writers just to get to cop-out to "sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" and have the artifact do everything including and up to making scrambled eggs & toast. Almost like they were afraid of reusing assets and having to make a new generic fantasy magic device.

You have to remember there's no such thing as space magic, as I told you before on the battlenet forums. It merely means the tech is too advanced to be explained in scientific terms, for the time being. Besides, Duran messed with the artifact. The whole killing Zerg could have been part of that tampering, though the whole energy siphoning might have been part of its programming in the beginning, and Duran merely added a new feature or something. Karax merely had to mess with it a bit more from what Duran did to get it to yank Amon out of the Khala.

Now, for the accomplishing individually, deinfesting Kerrigan could have simply been done via the Xel'Naga temple on Shakuras, since we already saw it kill Zerg back in Countdown, so it could have worked. For the part of reviving Amon, Amon never died in the first place, the redistributing energy part in the artifact could have worked. After all, Stukov DID have a point in HotS when he asked Kerrigan where did all her energies go after being blasted by the artifact.

[DarthYam]

How is that an indictment? All villains hurt those who never wronged (the hero notwithstanding) not just comic book ones. Also, comic book villains can be complex so I don't know where your generalisations are going there.



I never denied this. Like I said, her evil/corruption in BW can be interpreted as being mostly external (the infestation), internal (her betrayal by Mengsk and being enslaved in three different ways: unconsciously/unwillingly from the Confeds, then from her own willingness with Mengsk and then finally, willingly with the Overmind broke her mind) or an equal mix of both. I do question the weight of whether it's all wholly internal or external because there's enough ambiguity where you could argue it either way endlessly. That makes her complex.



This person clearly has no idea how an abuse victims' mind works.



Nice generalisation. Being sociopathic or psychopathic does not preclude one from experiencing connections with other people. The former can feel them whilst the latter pretends.



Oh, like how human Kerrigan handwrings at the morality of doing/not something but goes along with it anyway resulting in the deaths of a lot of tonne of innocent people? Psi emitters are used twice in Rebel Yell but she tacitly justifies it by shifting the responsibility of it on someone else ("Arcturus will come around. I know he will" she says at the start of New Gettysburg). If a "good" person does nothing to stop "evil", how and what good are they really?



Controlling Raszagal and blowing up Talematros was not "pointless douchebaggery", it was done to manipulate the Protoss into doing what she wanted them to do and when. It had plot purpose. On the other hand, mocking Zeratul was pointless douchebaggery though...unless one wants to interpret that as her wanting others to "feel her pain" in a misery-loves-company sort of way since Zeratul reflects an air of nobility that she once had and lost.


Grades of all people actually summed up what was wrong

He said
Kerrigan suffered just as much under Mengsk as she did the Confederacy, who took her away from her family, forced her to kill people, and subjected her to years of mental torture. But even still, she condemned unleashing zerg on Tarsonis and Antiga Prime just to take down the Confederacy. So it makes little sense that she is so willing to resort to this now, especially since she can't remember vast tracts of her time as the Queen of Blades due to her amnesia.

Kerrigan was not an angel but she wasn't a monster. She had very clear moral standards and tried to do the right thing. She opposed inflicting pain even on those who wronged her for ten years. For her to go from that to "Oh I'm going to do horrible things to the protoss because Tassadar outsmarted me that one time" is just BAD storytelling no matter how you spin it.

[Aldrius]

Kerrigan in BW was never impressive. Heart of the swarm has problems but Kerrigan actually EVOLVES over the story. She changes as a character and is a different person at the end.

I think people who hold Kerrigan as a great villain are looking with rose colored glasses.

I... didn't say anything about Brood War Kerrigan.

But since you brought it up pre-OM Kerrigan is pretty much an abuse victim with really awful guilt issues. Uprising strongly implies her fierce loyalty to Mengsk is because she was forced to assassinate his father and he gave her a second chance. I don't think Rebel Yell presents her as strongly moralistic really. She's pretty much just Mengsk's loyal dog. She calls his methods into question but she doesn't actually do anything about it. She's definitely capable of great cruelty if pushed to it.

And I don't think anyone's arguing that she isn't worse as a Zerg, it's just... understandable why she's worse. She's awful and cruel to Zeratul... but Zeratul is her enemy, and a threat. She's also... clearly a sadist at this point. She enjoys torturing people and being in control. She also sort of doesn't like Zeratul and kind of has a hate-on for him from way back from what happened in Overmind. She doesn't like not feeling like she's in control, and Zeratul is powerful enough to challenge her on that. That's how I've always interpreted it anyway.


Kerrigan was not an angel but she wasn't a monster. She had very clear moral standards and tried to do the right thing.

In what instance did she try to do the right thing, though? Can you name a specific example? She does what Mengsk tells her to. She objects once or twice, but ultimately she follows his orders. Acting as if she was some crusader for righteousness and justice is just... disingenuous.

She's doing what she's doing for Mengsk's sake, then for the Overmind's sake, then for her own sake. Morals rarely plays a role in it outside of her being... a pretty normal person who finds things like wiping out planets objectionable in Rebel Yell.


For her to go from that to "Oh I'm going to do horrible things to the protoss because Tassadar outsmarted me that one time" is just BAD storytelling no matter how you spin it.

Who's spinning? She was taken and physically transformed by the Zerg. Of course that was going to affect her and change what she did and didn't think was morally objectionable. If it didn't, THAT'D be bad storytelling.

[Turalyon]

Kerrigan suffered just as much under Mengsk as she did the Confederacy, who took her away from her family, forced her to kill people, and subjected her to years of mental torture.

That remains to be seen in the story the game represents. All we know from the game is that Kerrigan is ultimately a willing accomplice to Mengsk.


But even still, she condemned unleashing zerg on Tarsonis and Antiga Prime just to take down the Confederacy. So it makes little sense that she is so willing to resort to this now, especially since she can't remember vast tracts of her time as the Queen of Blades due to her amnesia.

Her condemnation is little more than a passive "I don't like it" rather than anything else. Actions/Non-actions speak louder than words and she did nothing to distance herself from the atrocities that were being committed. She is therefore complicit.

As to the "not making sense" why she's killing people now, that's easy to counter. She is an assassin first of all and a willing one under Mengsk. Being a self-possessed assassin takes a sort of certain mind so she's someone compromised morally there already. If you couple that with the realisation of being abused through the changes brought about due to the betrayal of Mengsk (she put more trust in this guy than Raynor) and with her time with the Zerg, it actually makes sense that once she is finally free of all her abusers and now has power (as she is in BW), she's going to do anything to maintain that independence no matter what.


She opposed inflicting pain even on those who wronged her for ten years. For her to go from that to "Oh I'm going to do horrible things to the protoss because Tassadar outsmarted me that one time" is just BAD storytelling no matter how you spin it.

I find it ironic that for one who lauds her for undergoing change (which is arguable in itself) in HotS, somehow cannot fathom or even appreciate the possibility that she changed throughout Sc1 to BW.

[DarthYam]

That remains to be seen in the story the game represents. All we know from the game is that Kerrigan is ultimately a willing accomplice to Mengsk.



Her condemnation is little more than a passive "I don't like it" rather than anything else. Actions/Non-actions speak louder than words and she did nothing to distance herself from the atrocities that were being committed. She is therefore complicit.

As to the "not making sense" why she's killing people now, that's easy to counter. She is an assassin first of all and a willing one under Mengsk. Being a self-possessed assassin takes a sort of certain mind so she's someone compromised morally there already. If you couple that with the realisation of being abused through the changes brought about due to the betrayal of Mengsk (she put more trust in this guy than Raynor) and with her time with the Zerg, it actually makes sense that once she is finally free of all her abusers and now has power (as she is in BW), she's going to do anything to maintain that independence no matter what.



I find it ironic that for one who lauds her for undergoing change (which is arguable in itself) in HotS, somehow cannot fathom or even appreciate the possibility that she changed throughout Sc1 to BW.

Oh she changed. It was a complete 180 from what she was before though, going from a relatively nuanced character to "MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA I'M EVUL HOR HOR HOR!!" It's not that she didn't change, it's just that her change was fucking stupid.

She had no reason to do what she did to the protoss in brood war at all. Yet she twisted the knife in for sadistic amusement. That doesn't scream "I'm never going to let myself be abused again." That just screams HOR HOR HOR I EVOUL.

She DOES change in Heart of the Swarm overall

In the intro missions she's conflicted; she wants to make Mengsk suffer for his crimes but at the same time she's scared of the darkness within and open to the idea of leaving it behind and having a normal life, as demonstrated by these pieces of dialogue

1.) Cinematic - TransmissionEdit
Transmission SC2-HotS VCine102:59
Transmission SC2-HotS VCine1
Kerrigan: Jim? Are you on this frequency?
Kerrigan: Jim, are you out there?
Kerrigan: I´m at the rendezvous, it´s all clear here.
Kerrigan: I´ve been thinking about what you said.
Kerrigan: there´s something dark in me, Jim…
Kerrigan: I need you. I need you to hear me right now.

She aims her gun at the zergling and after hearing Mengsk's gloating, she has an emotional outburst and then seems angry and determined when saying "confirmed".

2.) Kerrigan: "Kill them all. No one gets out alive."
Naktul: "Yes! The Queen has returned. Kill the Terrans."
Kerrigan: "The Queen? You're right. I was slipping back into something that-I have to get out of here."

After Mensk's evil gloating about Raynor's death, she's in an "ends justify the means" mode. She feels guilty about what she did to Lassara and doesn't take pleasure in it (and angrily tells Izsha to shut up when Izsha asks if killing Mengsk will bring her joy.) However, she's willing to do WHATEVER it takes to get revenge.

After Zerus and Char, though, things begin to change. She shows mercy to Warfield's men rather than simply slaughtering them, and if you look at her facial features from 1:50-1:57 in the following link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzT2mUTFwH0 you see them softening as she carries out the command. She's no longer cold like she was in the 1st part.

When Mengsk tells her "That man sacrificed everything to give you back your humanity. And you threw it away. How he must be disgusted by you. Why he'd be the first in line to kill you." Kerrigan looks.....upset. It's pretty clear what mengsk said rings true, and she's starting to realize how selfish she's being. She also spares Stukov in spite of their past history.

When she and Raynor meet on the Moros and Raynor asks "What have you done?" The way she says "What I....had too." makes it pretty clear that at this point she's trying to convince herself. She was pretty resolute on Kaldir, but now she's rattled. Her faith in the justness of her actions has been undermined. Finally, on Korhal during her conversation with Valerian she doesn't notice Raynor and was shocked by his arrival in such a way she REALLY didn't expect it. That implies that a.) she didn't agree to spare civilians just to please Raynor and b.) Kerrigan DID ultimately agree to spare civilians because it was the right thing to do.

Kerrigan at the end of Heart is NOT the same as the Kerrigan at the start. She actually evolves and grows over the course of the story, starting as a conflicted individual, than a vengeful warrior hellbent on revenge and fuck the consequences, has a heel realization and finally settles as an anti hero who isn't nice but gives a shit about life.

[Aldrius]

She had no reason to do what she did to the protoss in brood war at all. Yet she twisted the knife in for sadistic amusement. That doesn't scream "I'm never going to let myself be abused again." That just screams HOR HOR HOR I EVOUL.

She does. She even says why she did it in the campaign in question. She doesn't like the Protoss, they`re her enemies, they`re a threat to her. What part of that is confusing?

And even if it's not a legitimate point, or legitimate for her to think that, she still believes it. Which makes it valid.

[DarthYam]

She does. She even says why she did it in the campaign in question. She doesn't like the Protoss, they`re her enemies, they`re a threat to her. What part of that is confusing?

And even if it's not a legitimate point, or legitimate for her to think that, she still believes it. Which makes it valid.

The protoss humiliated her that one time. That's it.

Before the infestation she was morally opposed to using the zerg even on the people who you know tortured her for a decade and destroyed her life. Now she's willing to do this horrible thing for a petty insight. The explanation makes no real sense.

I was never really impressed with Brood War Kerrigan all that much. Just evil for the sake of it.

Compare her with Darth Vader: Vader's ultimately a tragic figure in that while he's evil he knows what he's become, is aware that it's his fault and legitimately hates himself for it. He sticks with it because he thinks it's too late to go back. Beneath the badassdom and coolness is a surprisingly tragic and complex individual. Kerrigan.....she had the past but her actions were only evil for the sake of it.

HOTS by contrast she does bad things but her motivation is more believable. She lost her one chance at a normal life and vengeance is all she has left, so she embraces her darker nature until finally forced to face what she's become, at which point she finally finds balance between being zerg and human and becomes an anti hero who, while not nice, is ultimately a better person than the queen of blades. Heart of the Swarm was uneven at places in it's development; having a linear storyline would have helped. But I find the idea of a Kerrigan who evolves over the course of the story and has more facets to her infinitely more compelling than the total pigshit we got in brood war. Even at her worst in Heart it was a lot easier to root for her than it EVER was in brood war.

SC2 was uneven and didn't have it's themes well but in some ways it was more ambitious than BW or even the original. WOL underlying themes were redemption and facing the past; HOTS's themes were identity and vengeance (vengeance was a miss, identity worked fine); LOTV was change and the need to adapt. It didn't miss but a lot of the underlying ideas (Kerrigan's redemption, Amon and the hybrids) were quite sound and had the potential to infinitely outclass brood war.

[Turalyon]

Oh she changed. It was a complete 180 from what she was before though, going from a relatively nuanced character to "MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA I'M EVUL HOR HOR HOR!!" It's not that she didn't change, it's just that her change was fucking stupid.

Of course it was a 180 turn, her life was wrecked beyond repair with the dual effects of being betrayed by the person she placed complete faith in and then being transfigured by the Overmind. You expect someone to stay the same after something like that happening to them? She's a damaged person acting out petulantly because after finally being freed from a lifetime of slavery to others, she can only see others as potential enslavers and must therefore act accordingly to prevent anyone from getting the better of her ever again. Either way, it's clear to me that you aren't interested in trying to understand why BW Kerrigan is the way she is given how you just ignore the prefectly reasonable justification I've given and just continue to say that she's evil for the sake of being evil without actually trying to counter any of my points.


She had no reason to do what she did to the protoss in brood war at all. Yet she twisted the knife in for sadistic amusement. That doesn't scream "I'm never going to let myself be abused again." That just screams HOR HOR HOR I EVOUL.

The Protoss made a fool of her so she's going to pay that back, with interest. It's her way of showing that she's in control now.


She DOES change in Heart of the Swarm overall

I never denied that and I thought we we're just talking about BW Kerrigan here, not comparing her to HotS.

[Nissa]

The most interesting arc in SC2 that might not actually be insulting to fans of sci-fi? No. :P

I think it's very insulting. Besides being both a retcon and a cliche, it doesn't add anything to the plot. We didn't need it.


Why would they build something as giant and resource intensive as an arkship after having their civilization nearly vaporized instead of just building more ships/weapons

Well, I was going on the assumption that the Spear of Adun would be kept. However, if it can be replaced by technology that's better, more story driven, or just in any way more interesting, that's alright by me.

[Aldrius]

The protoss humiliated her that one time. That's it.


She says she does it to defeat the Cerebrates on Shakuras. And then her subsequent actions are to use Zeratul to defeat the Overmind on Char.

She's apathetic about whether or not she hurts them in the process, and wants payback on Zeratul for what happened on Char. Not 'for the evil', but for the sake of her own power. Which is what she's primarily concerned with at that point.

Even Fenix, she flat out says '[he] is uncanilly resourceful' and 'must be eliminated'. That's practical, that's not just for her sadism (even though she is also a sadist). These things are done for practical reasons.

[ragnarok]

The Protoss made a fool of her so she's going to pay that back, with interest. It's her way of showing that she's in control now.


Except she took this way too far as shown in BW. What happened to Raszagal should have burned all the bridges. For those who wanted her to die, they certainly had a point when it came to that, and her inability to accept any responsibility was supposed to come back to bite her had it not been for Amon's actions in LotV

[DarthYam]

Of course it was a 180 turn, her life was wrecked beyond repair with the dual effects of being betrayed by the person she placed complete faith in and then being transfigured by the Overmind. You expect someone to stay the same after something like that happening to them? She's a damaged person acting out petulantly because after finally being freed from a lifetime of slavery to others, she can only see others as potential enslavers and must therefore act accordingly to prevent anyone from getting the better of her ever again. Either way, it's clear to me that you aren't interested in trying to understand why BW Kerrigan is the way she is given how you just ignore the prefectly reasonable justification I've given and just continue to say that she's evil for the sake of being evil without actually trying to counter any of my points.



The Protoss made a fool of her so she's going to pay that back, with interest. It's her way of showing that she's in control now.



I never denied that and I thought we we're just talking about BW Kerrigan here, not comparing her to HotS.

I never expected her to be the same. I could buy her being obsessed with revenge and being so determined that anyone who got in her way (the protoss for instance) would suffer. I don't buy her being sadistic over something as being outsmarted that one time.

Again. Vengeful, obsessed to the point where whoever gets in her way gets hurt, being willing to discard things like civilian casualties? All plausible. What we got in brood war? Nope.

[DarthYam]

I actually had a vague idea of a brood war rewrite.

Ulrezaj would have formed an unholy alliance with Daggoth in order to get revenge on the khalai outcasts. He helps Daggoth gain the high ground in his war with Kerrigan, Daggoth helps him wipe out the khalai. Kerrigan approaches the Khalai and Nezarim, arguing that they have common interests (she wants Daggoth gone, they want Ulrezaj gone, and neither can stand against their unholy union alone.) Ulrezaj is repulsed and Kerrigan parts on amicable terms.

All in all I think Kerrigan the complex anti hero is more interested; she wouldn't be evil per se, but she'd be darker and a lot more willing to bust heads and screw civilian casualties.

[Aldrius]

Kerrigan doesn't actually kill civilians in Brood War... there's probably some caught up in the collateral damage from blowing the grid in Talematros, but that's about it. And that was hardly her intended goal.

It's only in WoL where the whole 'civilians!' thing is brought into focus.


Again. Vengeful, obsessed to the point where whoever gets in her way gets hurt, being willing to discard things like civilian casualties? All plausible. What we got in brood war? Nope.

What we got in Brood War was a woman consumed by revenge. Part of that revenge was obviously how she was humiliated on Char and they opposed her for an extended period of time.

Not just because Tassadar outsmarted her once.

[Turalyon]

Aldrius is getting it.


I never expected her to be the same. I could buy her being obsessed with revenge and being so determined that anyone who got in her way (the protoss for instance) would suffer. I don't buy her being sadistic over something as being outsmarted that one time.

But it's not just one time to her. Her whole life had been controlled to some degree up until this point. Every past slight against her back then (before the Overminds death) were all part of someone/something trying to control her to some degree, up to and including Protoss actions against her in Sc1. Now that she has true agency for the first time in BW, it's her time now to show others what it feels like to be 'controlled' the only way she knows how and to prevent any scenario where she could ever be potentially 'controlled' again. If that means killing and being an arsehole whilst going about it, so be it. Classic projection.

Her mind's essentially broken at this point - any semblance of morality she once had (which was tenuous and compromised anyway given that she was an assassin in the first place) would have been one of the very first things to go. She is irrational and overreactionary to be sure, but not without reason/cause as you suggest.

[ragnarok]

Kerrigan doesn't actually kill civilians in Brood War... there's probably some caught up in the collateral damage from blowing the grid in Talematros, but that's about it. And that was hardly her intended goal.

It's only in WoL where the whole 'civilians!' thing is brought into focus.



What we got in Brood War was a woman consumed by revenge. Part of that revenge was obviously how she was humiliated on Char and they opposed her for an extended period of time.

Not just because Tassadar outsmarted her once.

Well, it's not about killing civilians. Back then in the BW, she knew all along reuniting the swarm wasn't 100% guaranteed, especially if the UED still had the Psi Disruptor and everything. It was therefore necessary to show mercy in order to convince Raynor and Fenix on the alliance with her so they could believe she changed.

In comparison in HotS it was different. After all, Zagara was the strongest the broodmothers, and Kerrigan got her to submit (even if you hadn't gone to Zerus). Therefore, as far as she was concerned, unlike in BW, it wasn't a matter of IF the swarm could be reunited, it was a matter of WHEN it's reunited.

And there was no need for alliances since no one else was trying to take control of the swarm (since even after Zerus, she didn't fully buy Zeratul's prophecy)

[ragnarok]

Aldrius is getting it.



But it's not just one time to her. Her whole life had been controlled to some degree up until this point. Every past slight against her back then (before the Overminds death) were all part of someone/something trying to control her to some degree, up to and including Protoss actions against her in Sc1. Now that she has true agency for the first time in BW, it's her time now to show others what it feels like to be 'controlled' the only way she knows how and to prevent any scenario where she could ever be potentially 'controlled' again. If that means killing and being an arsehole whilst going about it, so be it. Classic projection.

Her mind's essentially broken at this point - any semblance of morality she once had (which was tenuous and compromised anyway given that she was an assassin in the first place) would have been one of the very first things to go. She is irrational and overreactionary to be sure, but not without reason/cause as you suggest.

That makes sense just fine for BW. For HotS I'm sure some would argue (though I wouldn't buy it) the killing was part of the whole killing all those and making many suffer so they could experience the pain she went through upon losing Raynor (prior to learning he was still alive).

As I had argued in the past, Kerrigan's mentality in HotS towards the Dominion was that they're all just like Mengsk. Because of all the times of hurt, control, and corruption she went through during the Confederate days and all that, likely her view of humanity is there's WAY too few decent people in it (aside from Raynor) and therefore did not deserve to survive.

This isn't really anything new if you're exposed to atrocities from them for way too long, and this is merely something we see in real life frequently (albeit on a smaller scale).

As we all know, humanity is capable of great things, but also horrifying things (the concentration camps from the WWII days are still considered shocking to the core even today). But under normal circumstances, you're supposed to live out a life to see despite such atrocities, that's only a very small part of a much bigger picture, and most of humanity is decent.

However, if in your whole life all you're ever exposed to is the absolute WORST that humanity has to offer, and never got a chance to see the rest of the picture, well I'm sure you can see exactly where this is going.

[DarthYam]

I was expecting Kerrigan to be more....hot blooded. She's cold in brood war. I expected her to be more vengeful, more obsessed with making Mengsk suffer. Fanatic said that if they did what they did in Heart for brood war it might have made sense. I agree.

Kerrigan being vengeful and angry? Makes sense. Her being sadistic and cold blooded? Yeah......no.

[ragnarok]

I was expecting Kerrigan to be more....hot blooded. She's cold in brood war. I expected her to be more vengeful, more obsessed with making Mengsk suffer. Fanatic said that if they did what they did in Heart for brood war it might have made sense. I agree.

Kerrigan being vengeful and angry? Makes sense. Her being sadistic and cold blooded? Yeah......no.

It all depends on just how she saw the rest of humanity and everything. It wasn't until right before the Korhal invasion that she finally gave in to try to see humanity differently. And even then it was probably only for Raynor's sake.

[Turalyon]

I expected her to be more vengeful, more obsessed with making Mengsk suffer.

How would Kerrigan make Mengsk suffer without being "cold-blooded"? That's treading a very thin line. Besides, what she did to him in BW was Kerrigan making him suffer (to her at least).


Fanatic said that if they did what they did in Heart for brood war it might have made sense. I agree.

Do what exactly? Murdering Terrans and killing Mengsk straight-up during BW? How does that make her less "cold-blooded"?

Having HotS occur right after Sc1 would be problematic since HotS hinges on the WoL establishing they were lovers and the ending where Raynor deinfests/"saves" Kerrigan. Both these give Kerrigan the strong motivation to do what she does in HotS. If you take all that away but continue off from where HotS' main plot-line begins at the time of BW, we have Kerrigan going on an inexplicable killing rage when Mengsk announces he "executed" Raynor when there was nothing in Sc1 to establish why she would feel so blinkered in killing Mengsk from such news. Without BW and WoL, their last interaction has Kerrigan dismissing Raynor in Agent of the Swarm as a non-threat that's not worth killing or caring about.


Kerrigan being vengeful and angry? Makes sense. Her being sadistic and cold blooded? Yeah......no.

I think what you're equating as "making sense" is really about your own personal taste. She's being a bitch/arsehole (people are like that when trying to stamp their authority) and you don't like that - I get it. Doesn't mean there's no basis/reason for it. Also, keep in mind that she was still infested in BW. If one doesn't like the "she chose to be sadistic" reason, one can always blame it on the infestation screwing her up. Hell, you don't have to like that either but it's still understandable/making sense either way.

[DarthYam]

How would Kerrigan make Mengsk suffer without being "cold-blooded"? That's treading a very thin line. Besides, what she did to him in BW was Kerrigan making him suffer (to her at least).



Do what exactly? Murdering Terrans and killing Mengsk straight-up during BW? How does that make her less "cold-blooded"?

Having HotS occur right after Sc1 would be problematic since HotS hinges on the WoL establishing they were lovers and the ending where Raynor deinfests/"saves" Kerrigan. Both these give Kerrigan the strong motivation to do what she does in HotS. If you take all that away but continue off from where HotS' main plot-line begins at the time of BW, we have Kerrigan going on an inexplicable killing rage when Mengsk announces he "executed" Raynor when there was nothing in Sc1 to establish why she would feel so blinkered in killing Mengsk from such news. Without BW and WoL, their last interaction has Kerrigan dismissing Raynor in Agent of the Swarm as a non-threat that's not worth killing or caring about.



I think what you're equating as "making sense" is really about your own personal taste. She's being a bitch/arsehole (people are like that when trying to stamp their authority) and you don't like that - I get it. Doesn't mean there's no basis/reason for it. Also, keep in mind that she was still infested in BW. If one doesn't like the "she chose to be sadistic" reason, one can always blame it on the infestation screwing her up. Hell, you don't have to like that either but it's still understandable/making sense either way.

Part of the reason I mentioned Charles Whitman is that it could have had Kerrigan being in control and still having outside factors influence her. Whitman ultimately made the choices he did but the fact that something was physically influencing the part of his brain that controlled anger and fear meant that Whitman was subtly pushed into doing certain decisions.

I would have had it that the infestation amplified the part of her brain that controlled fear and rage and suppressed the parts that influenced compassion and empathy. Kerrigan would have agency but the door would be open for redemption.

[Aldrius]

Why does the door need to be open for redemption, though?

Brood War is all about her self-destruction and her new found inability to connect with other human beings. That's what True Colours was supposed to emphasize. Even a simple line like "I've always wanted to have you killed" not only says a lot about Kerrigan's character on the whole, but also that she's indulging what's always been there.

Uprising supports that too.

[ragnarok]

Why does the door need to be open for redemption, though?

Brood War is all about her self-destruction and her new found inability to connect with other human beings. That's what True Colours was supposed to emphasize. Even a simple line like "I've always wanted to have you killed" not only says a lot about Kerrigan's character on the whole, but also that she's indulging what's always been there.

Uprising supports that too.

Uprising also supports Kerrigan's irrationality and not being able to think straight when someone she cared about got killed. Remember, Raynor isn't her first love, Somo Hung was. Look how she reacted in that book when he got killed.

[Turalyon]

+1 for Aldrius.


I would have had it that the infestation amplified the part of her brain that controlled fear and rage and suppressed the parts that influenced compassion and empathy. Kerrigan would have agency but the door would be open for redemption.

To each their own. For me, I quite like the ambiguity of not knowing precisely whether Kerrigan's display in BW was wholly due to infestation or her wilfully choosing that path (irrational though it may seem to us) because of her psychological trauma. More juicy and open for discussion that way. Also, I'm not even sure whether one could ever have it such as you described without the story feeling too mechanical/obviously plotted out by writers/being too expository. Sc2 is full of this type of "convenient plotting" and that's what garners most of the discussions rather than the underlying themes.

As to the idea of "redemption", I can take it or leave it. I would prefer if the redemption was solely influenced by internal events rather than being conditional on a plot device though. In WoL, Raynor isn't really seeking redemption until Valerian reveals the plot device artifact which magically grants him the ability to fix his self-imposed guilt of not saving Kerrigan by being able to save Kerrigan. In HotS, Kerrigan isn't really seeking redemption until it's revealed Raynor (who fulfills the magic plot device that the artifact does in WoL) is alive, rescuable and is chided by him into being good. That last part especially demeans Kerrigan's agency since it makes everything she does like it's for the glorious light that is Raynor rather than doing it based from a personal source of contrition/taking responsibility (that's got nothing to do with perceived sexism either).

[DarthYam]

+1 for Aldrius.




As to the idea of "redemption", I can take it or leave it. I would prefer if the redemption was solely influenced by internal events rather than being conditional on a plot device though. In WoL, Raynor isn't really seeking redemption until Valerian reveals the plot device artifact which magically grants him the ability to fix his self-imposed guilt of not saving Kerrigan by being able to save Kerrigan. In HotS, Kerrigan isn't really seeking redemption until it's revealed Raynor (who fulfills the magic plot device that the artifact does in WoL) is alive, rescuable and is chided by him into being good. That last part especially demeans Kerrigan's agency since it makes everything she does like it's for the glorious light that is Raynor rather than doing it based from a personal source of contrition/taking responsibility (that's got nothing to do with perceived sexism either).


I agree in as much as Heart of the Swarm. In the original outline, Kerrigan was going to be a lot nicer. She would have spared Lassara and the other protoss, and she would have ultimately found common ground with Lassara (asking about the research she was doing). That's also why I suggested a sort of mentor student relationship with Zeratul. They don't like another, and Kerrigan would feel conficted due to her guilt of what she did to raszegal. the identity theme would still be there, but Kerrigan would be trying to balance her humanity with controlling the zerg, maybe finding a balance (in the final missions of heart she was in a good place. Willing to bust skulls but caring about human life.)

[ragnarok]

I agree in as much as Heart of the Swarm. In the original outline, Kerrigan was going to be a lot nicer. She would have spared Lassara and the other protoss, and she would have ultimately found common ground with Lassara (asking about the research she was doing). That's also why I suggested a sort of mentor student relationship with Zeratul. They don't like another, and Kerrigan would feel conficted due to her guilt of what she did to raszegal. the identity theme would still be there, but Kerrigan would be trying to balance her humanity with controlling the zerg, maybe finding a balance (in the final missions of heart she was in a good place. Willing to bust skulls but caring about human life.)

Except balancing humanity requires her to actually see there's good in humanity. That never really happened even by the end of HotS. If not for Raynor's sake, the very most that could be said for her view on humanity right before the Korhal invasion was that Kerrigan was willing to admit maybe, just maybe, there was a bit more to the picture than just the very WORST she had assumed for so long.

[DarthYam]

I'm so getting huge flak for this post.

Okay. In as succinct a way as possible, here's what I think the problems are, and how I'd fix them.

WoL

1) Jim is way too much of a super hero. In fact, all the protagonists are. When everyone's meeting up for the final battle in Into the Void it just feels like Wonder Woman called up the rest of the Justice League to go fight a really wimpy version of Darkseid or something. So I'd probably fix that. What saved Raynor from being boring/stale in the original StarCraft (and Brood War) is that he was used pretty sparingly, and when he was used he wasn't sickeningly successful at everything (in fact he failed a lot and made plenty of mistakes). I'm not sure WoL allows for that, but basically I think if Metzen had actually been writing the game and wasn't getting stonewalled by his team we'd have seen a much more dynamic Raynor character.

2) WoL in general is just so... soft. There's some fun plot lines but most of the subplots are pretty weak. Nothing really feels impactful enough and everything being so anthology based and not building on itself is pretty weak. Too many one-off planets. Also a lot of the plotting which was actually interesting just didn't get enough build-up/pay off. Tychus is interesting, but he really doesn't do much of anything outside of telling Raynor about artifacts and piloting the Odin. The whole revelation that he's working for Mengsk is revealed right at the beginning pretty much, and then doesn't come into play at all until the last cutscene.

3) Valerian is boring. For one of the big new selling points of the campaign Valerian is just SO dull. It seems like they were trying to make him ambiguous or mysterious but he just isn't. He's just... absurdly vague. It feels like he's trying to hide something, but in actuality isn't really hiding anything. So... I'd just write him better probably. Maybe have him actually be up to something. Maybe a plot which spans multiple games.

4) This one's the big one. The main dramatic thrust. Through out the story, the big question is... is Raynor actually going to go through on his promise to kill Kerrigan? It's not expressly stated but there's a lot of scenes referencing it and showcasing this fact. Then... they reveal the prophecy and the whole choice is pretty much taken out of Raynor's hands. If you kill Kerrigan; you ensure the end of all existence. So Raynor basically has no choice and the whole subplot is ruined.

5) For that matter, the existence of a prophecy and Zeratul's whole subplot is just absolutely atrocious. Prophecies are lazy, lazy writing and they take all the agency and authenticity out of a character's choices and decisions and they become nothing more than roles playing out a preordained storyline. And that's especially evident in this. Zeratul is also massively uninteresting after the first mission (while I hate the cutscene, I actually like that first cave mission as Zeratul, it's really fun).

6) And then the Overmind/Tassadar thing. I like the idea of going back to commune with the Overmind to find out something about the Xel'Naga, but the specifics are pretty bad. And I really didn't need to see Tassadar again.

WoL is just so patronizing.

But unlike Heart, it actually kind of knows what it is. Heart is just a mess.

1) It's just so... lukewarm. It's pretty much the exact same plot as Queen of Blades but stretched to be twice as long stuffed full of nonsense with a way more narrow focus and a really bipolar protagonist who can't make up her mind about what her personality is, who she is, and what she wants. Brood War Kerrigan was decisive, direct, knew what she wanted, and knew how to get it.

2) Mengsk is a lame villain. Mengsk was better as the amoral side character. An unpredictable element. Having him... I guess team up with Narud to make hybrid and whatnot just made him feel way too out of his element and made him a really one dimensional antagonist. He's just a slimy bastard. I don't wanna keep making comparisons to Brood War but that game knew to deal with him early because it knew that he just didn't have the legs to be a major antagonist for too long (also Brood War liked to change things up more dramatically and quicker than SC2 does).

3) Just... the supporting cast is a mixed bag ranging from cool/funny (Abathur) to what the hell were they thinking (Izsha) to please stop talking and get off my screen now (Dehaka). Could have been a lot stronger, and there probably could have been a much wider mix of different races involved. Again in... um... some other games, you got to see the different factions interacting with one another and there was more of a layer of complexity to things, where you got to see different perspectives. In all three of these products you're playing as a superhero with a slightly different flavour than the other superheroes who is fighting the EVIL Dominion, or the EVIL Tal'darim or the EVIL Amon and his Hybrids or the EVIL Renegade Zerg. That's pretty much universally what your enemies are. It just gets a little monotonous. Even if they tried to break up the mission structure (which I thought they did a crummy job at anyway).

4) The continuing issue with the Kerrigan plot, and just her whole interaction with Raynor feels so... artificial. They weren't even that chummy in Rebel Yell. Now, after she's slaughtered billions of people and killed friends he's cared about he's totally okay with running away with her and cracking wise? I get that they wanted to tell a romance story but it's lathered on pretty thick and not that well told. It also completely removes any culpability on Kerrigan's part as the Queen of the Zerg and then pretty much lets her have her cake and eat it too. Same with Zeratul and in LotV, Artanis, these people are just totally forgiving of Kerrigan for literally no reason other than a prophecy said they had to. It's infuriating.

Honestly I have issues with it, but Legacy of the Void is at least a tightly told story and is about something substantial. It doesn't have a heavy handed plot, it doesn't have insultingly bad dialogue or situations. It doesn't boil everything down to a prophecy or a single love story or even a single character (the protagonist is Artanis, and I don't really love him, but I don't dislike him either). Characters have to give things up, characters die (kind of stupidly, but they're people we actually care about and not one-dimensional villains). The new characters and the supporting cast are excellent, and they're not all just nice people that get along with our superhero protagonist. I REALLY don't like how Zeratul dies and it's really melodramatic, but it is pretty well done. I just wish he'd done something in SC2 that I actually cared about and thought was cool. Even the ending is pretty good. It still has some of the issues of WoL/HotS (mainly just... way too much filler, and way too much 'here's an interesting but ultimately pointless concept' like with the Primal Zerg.)

For a lot of these, I think the only really way to 'fix' them was to really just take more time with the storytelling and just... let it flow a little better.

I'll be honest. Aldrius is looking through rose colored glasses. I watched the cinematic of brood war and youtube and all I thought was that Kerrigan was bland and one note evil. She was one dimensional. I LIKED having a Kerrigan who is willing to stop and reflect on her actions, wondering if maybe she's going to far. It seems to me that Aldrius wants Kerrigan to be what she was in Brood War; the idea that Kerrigan MUST be evil is the only way to go.

I'm sorry Brood war was just shitty writing and I'll say it. Heart of the Swarm was superior in almost every way. I really honestly think people who think Brood War was great storytelling are being overly nostalgic. This isn't like Star Wars, where the original holds up. Brood War really is just shitty writing. It's irritating watching people felate itlike it's shakespeare. Some of the douchier battlenet members (and even that Andrew guy everyone treated like the second coming) ignore the fact that a lot of brood war's writing was actually pretty god damn stupid. The sequel trilogy had it's problems, but those who claim brood war was leagues better are either lying or in denial

[Turalyon]

^ Way to strawman, Yam!

[DarthYam]

^ Way to strawman, Yam!
Maybe I was uncharitable. I felt that the idea of a Kerrigan who'se introspective is a fine idea rather than a bad one. I'm also annoyed at how people are always going on about how SO MUCH BETTER brood war was. The guys on battlenet are ridiculously obnoxious about it.

HOTS was uneven but I honestly felt that looking at the outline that had a few changes been made it would have EASILY defeated brood war.

[TheEconomist]

I'm sorry Brood war was just shitty writing and I'll say it. Heart of the Swarm was superior in almost every way.

http://static2.fjcdn.com/thumbnails/comments/I+don+t+know+why+these+are+making+me+laugh+but+_1d ab53add962c56a6f9687a6f4004e1e.gif

[KaiserStratosTygo]

I'm sorry Brood war was just shitty writing and I'll say it. Heart of the Swarm was superior in almost every way.


For the first time in a good bit me and TheEconomist are on the same brainwave.

almost spat out my drink for real.

[Gradius]

Maybe I was uncharitable. I felt that the idea of a Kerrigan who'se introspective is a fine idea rather than a bad one. I'm also annoyed at how people are always going on about how SO MUCH BETTER brood war was. The guys on battlenet are ridiculously obnoxious about it.

HOTS was uneven but I honestly felt that looking at the outline that had a few changes been made it would have EASILY defeated brood war.
You've been butthurt that people continuously trash SC2's inferior writing for years now. Just let it go.

[TheEconomist]

The guys on battlenet are ridiculously obnoxious about it.

If this is true, then the forum has come a long way since I last went there. Seems like the missionary work of Saint Gradius has born fruit. May God bless him with eternal joy.

[Aldrius]

I'll be honest. Aldrius is looking through rose colored glasses. I watched the cinematic of brood war and youtube and all I thought was that Kerrigan was bland and one note evil. She was one dimensional. I LIKED having a Kerrigan who is willing to stop and reflect on her actions, wondering if maybe she's going to far. It seems to me that Aldrius wants Kerrigan to be what she was in Brood War; the idea that Kerrigan MUST be evil is the only way to go.

And it seems to me like you haven't responded to a SINGLE one of my points and just continue to question my argument on the basis of... me liking Brood War and having first played it in 2001. And repeat the same thing over and over again while attributing an argument to me that I haven't even said. (Even originally you brought up this topic in response to me, when I didn't even MENTION Brood War Kerrigan AT ALL.)

I want a Kerrigan who's decisive, knows what she wants, and is willing to do anything to achieve that goal. I want a story that allows it's main character to do morally questionable things, or to take actions in the name of objectives that you're not sure you agree with in an actually shocking way, and not in a way where the story is rubbing it in your face. I don't want a safe story with lots of bland 'cool' stuff like Primal Zerg which, while interesting ultimately serves the narrative only as a means to introduce a 'good guy Zerg'. While completely under developing the concept.

That has nothing to do with morality. The Kerrigan in Brood War is more amoral than she is immoral. She commits immoral deeds yes (such as killing Fenix), but those are done for cold pragmatic reasons which we've explored and you haven't refuted at all except to shout "ROSE COLOURED GLASSES" at me. Like that's somehow an argument when it's nothing but a huge fallacy.

I want a Kerrigan that isn't staring at her navel, or who barters with stupid flat characters like Valerian (who's entire arc happened off-screen during Heart apparently) while she lectures people like some nagging schoolyard nun who knows better, even though she's slaughtered thousands of people and invaded countless worlds for the sake of her own power. Out of sheer paranoia. I miss the Kerrigan who clearly hates herself and doesn't think anyone is capable of caring about her. Not because she's pointing a gun at her own head in some pathetic, weepy moment, but who's actively decided that people are going to hate her (or at best pity her), and the only way she's going to survive is to be okay with that hatred and to throw it back in their faces.

Brood War takes concepts from through out the story line (Mengsk's betryal of Kerrigan, her relationship with Tassadar in Overmind, her constant cat and mouse games with Zeratul) and SMASHES them together to create explosive outcomes. And True Colours is the ultimate manifestation of that in so many ways that The Reckoning isn't. And True Colours does it in a unique, shocking way. Reckoning does it in the most pat, the most expected, the most obvious, the most moralistically preachy way possible. Mengsk = Victimizer, Bad. Kerrigan = Good. But she's a victim so she's not really empathetic or endearing, she's just pitiable.

Heart of the Swarm doesn't even seem to understand Kerrigan and Zeratul's relationship. It's just two weird looking aliens chit chatting about the plot and what's about to happen. While... kerrigan points out a plot hole and Zeratul just doesn't seem to give a shit. Where's the pay off in that? We waited 10 years of living with that moment where Kerrigan OBSCENELY forces Zeratul to kill the person he loves the most just for Zeratul... not to care? How is that good character writing?

Beyond that, the Zerg in Heart of the Swarm are just lame. Even in Wings of Liberty at least they're intimidating and feeling somewhat overwhelming. In Heart they're just... I dunno. There's nothing vicious or aggressive or violent about them anymore. It's just... sad. It's sad that they're possessed by something evil. I don't even know how I'm supposed to be reacting to it, never mind how I actually was supposed to get enjoyment out of it on the most basic of levels.

[ragnarok]

You've been butthurt that people continuously trash SC2's inferior writing for years now. Just let it go.

Gradius, you seriously need to start seeing that while some of your arguments are fine, others DO tend to be somewhat hypocritical.

[TheEconomist]

*Ragpalm*

[DarthYam]

And it seems to me like you haven't responded to a SINGLE one of my points and just continue to question my argument on the basis of... me liking Brood War and having first played it in 2001. And repeat the same thing over and over again while attributing an argument to me that I haven't even said. (Even originally you brought up this topic in response to me, when I didn't even MENTION Brood War Kerrigan AT ALL.)

I want a Kerrigan who's decisive, knows what she wants, and is willing to do anything to achieve that goal. I want a story that allows it's main character to do morally questionable things, or to take actions in the name of objectives that you're not sure you agree with in an actually shocking way, and not in a way where the story is rubbing it in your face. I don't want a safe story with lots of bland 'cool' stuff like Primal Zerg which, while interesting ultimately serves the narrative only as a means to introduce a 'good guy Zerg'. While completely under developing the concept.

That has nothing to do with morality. The Kerrigan in Brood War is more amoral than she is immoral. She commits immoral deeds yes (such as killing Fenix), but those are done for cold pragmatic reasons which we've explored and you haven't refuted at all except to shout "ROSE COLOURED GLASSES" at me. Like that's somehow an argument when it's nothing but a huge fallacy.

I want a Kerrigan that isn't staring at her navel, or who barters with stupid flat characters like Valerian (who's entire arc happened off-screen during Heart apparently) while she lectures people like some nagging schoolyard nun who knows better, even though she's slaughtered thousands of people and invaded countless worlds for the sake of her own power. Out of sheer paranoia. I miss the Kerrigan who clearly hates herself and doesn't think anyone is capable of caring about her. Not because she's pointing a gun at her own head in some pathetic, weepy moment, but who's actively decided that people are going to hate her (or at best pity her), and the only way she's going to survive is to be okay with that hatred and to throw it back in their faces.

Brood War takes concepts from through out the story line (Mengsk's betryal of Kerrigan, her relationship with Tassadar in Overmind, her constant cat and mouse games with Zeratul) and SMASHES them together to create explosive outcomes. And True Colours is the ultimate manifestation of that in so many ways that The Reckoning isn't. And True Colours does it in a unique, shocking way. Reckoning does it in the most pat, the most expected, the most obvious, the most moralistically preachy way possible. Mengsk = Victimizer, Bad. Kerrigan = Good. But she's a victim so she's not really empathetic or endearing, she's just pitiable.

Heart of the Swarm doesn't even seem to understand Kerrigan and Zeratul's relationship. It's just two weird looking aliens chit chatting about the plot and what's about to happen. While... kerrigan points out a plot hole and Zeratul just doesn't seem to give a shit. Where's the pay off in that? We waited 10 years of living with that moment where Kerrigan OBSCENELY forces Zeratul to kill the person he loves the most just for Zeratul... not to care? How is that good character writing?

Beyond that, the Zerg in Heart of the Swarm are just lame. Even in Wings of Liberty at least they're intimidating and feeling somewhat overwhelming. In Heart they're just... I dunno. There's nothing vicious or aggressive or violent about them anymore. It's just... sad. It's sad that they're possessed by something evil. I don't even know how I'm supposed to be reacting to it, never mind how I actually was supposed to get enjoyment out of it on the most basic of levels.

1.) We seem to have differing views. I liked HOTS kerrigan because she actually evolves over the course of the story.

To quote Hawki "So, on one hand, we have BW Kerrigan who sings the same tune the entire game, doesn't change as a character, and is singuarly focussed on one goal. In contrast, we have HotS Kerrigan, who's torn between morality and the need for revenge, who manages to shed the emotional burdens by the end of the game, and displays aspects of her personality that are varied. By definition, HotS Kerrigan is more multi-dimensional." Hawks also said "A developed character has depth of character(ization). A multi-dimensional character has numerous different facets of that characterization. Kerrigan gets singular development in BW bar mission 5 and the green text, and both are irrelevant to her character. Her motives are clear, there's no regret, no looking back, her goal is simply to gain power, and even if you argue that vengeance was in her plan all along, it's only in the spotlight for one mission and never brought up again." Kerrigan actually develops over Heart of the Swarm. BW Kerrigan isn't so much "decisive" as "doing the same thing with no development at all." Kerrigan in Heart actually develops over the course of the story. She embraces revenge cause it's all she's got, is forced to actually face the morality of what she's doing, and than finds balance between the two.


2.) "Navel Gazing" isn't a bad thing. I don't like protagonists who just bullheadedly rush in to do whatever they want and stay that way throughout the entire story.

3.) Kerrigan does hate herself; even leaving aside the gun when she and Raynor meet on the Moros she's clearly trying to convince herself when she says "What I....had to." That shows inner conflict and turmoil. It's not even weepy. It could be akin to Jaime Lannister in a way; being forced to actually think about what you're doing. Kerrigan is forced to actually face what she's doing and in doing so evolve as a character. That's far more appealing to me than "Oh. I evil. I'll rest for a minute. Welp, I'm done back to being evil." That's why I like Kerrigan in Heart. There were problems (Kaldir, Zeratul's interactions) but on the whole Kerrigan actually evolves over the course of the story rather then being the same the entire game. That's why I love her for the most part.

I could easily cite all the points Fanatic Templar made about how stupid Kerrigan is in Brood War but you'd just ignore it anyway.

[TheEconomist]

To quote Hawki "So, on one hand, we have BW Kerrigan who sings the same tune the entire game, doesn't change as a character, and is singuarly focussed on one goal. In contrast, we have HotS Kerrigan, who's torn between morality and the need for revenge, who manages to shed the emotional burdens by the end of the game, and displays aspects of her personality that are varied.

That might matter if the motivation wasn't varying degrees of childish tantrums. Oh, and, you know, that whole Zerg Queen thing.

[ragnarok]

*Ragpalm*

There are times I wonder if you had ever seen if some of his points (I admit this is rare, but it has happened) got TOO cynical.

[ragnarok]

That might matter if the motivation wasn't varying degrees of childish tantrums. Oh, and, you know, that whole Zerg Queen thing.

It's NOT childish tantrums. You would react violently if you heard/saw someone you cared so deeply die. This was already shown back in Uprising, when Kerrigan was only 18 (I think), after Somo Hung's death.

[DarthYam]

Fanatic Templar went into detail about how Kerrigan was actually a.) incompetent and b.) inconsistent. Aldrius basically put his hands in his ears and said LALALALALALALALALA I'm not listening LALALALALALALALALA! I quoted Hawki earlier but honestly I think Aldrius is in denial and can't admit Brood War actually isn't that good a story. In terms of character evolution HOTS Kerrigan kills Brood War Kerrigan, desecrates the corpse and shits on the grave. Being introspective is not a bad thing. If you only play as a colossal asshole it gets boring. Aldrius seems to think Kerrigan should only ever be evil and violent. I LIKE my characters actually being forced to address whether or not what they do is wrong and possibly changing for the better. HOTS had problems. Kerrigan being forced to face her actions and think about them was not one of them.

I freely acknowledge HOTS had problems. That's why I suggested this thread in the first place. But those who claim Brood War is a good story are kidding themselves

[Turalyon]

So, on one hand, we have BW Kerrigan who sings the same tune the entire game, doesn't change as a character, and is singuarly focussed on one goal.

Is that inherently bad though? Mengsk in Sc1 doesn't really change as a character (even his tirade/reveal can be reasonably explained as being part of his character and therefore, not a change in his character) and is singularly focussed on one goal in Rebel Yell and yet he's still a great character (up until BW and Sc2 that is). There are many stories with static characters that are just as compelling as ones with dynamic characters.


Her motives are clear, there's no regret, no looking back, her goal is simply to gain power, and even if you argue that vengeance was in her plan all along, it's only in the spotlight for one mission and never brought up again.

There's subtext to all of her actions. The reason why there's no regret, no looking back and why she is simply gaining power is that she's a psychologically damaged individual trying to avoid being in a position of no power again (which was all her life prior to BW) at all cost. Someone like this is not just going to exposit that for the benefit of the audience. To me, BW Kerrigan isn't some badass doing evil things for the sake of evil but someone who is wretched and pitiable.


There were problems (Kaldir, Zeratul's interactions) but on the whole Kerrigan actually evolves over the course of the story rather then being the same the entire game.

This would be fine but the the problems you mentioned are big parts of the story and cannot be excised, especially since HotS' narrative is functionally and mechanically more cohesive and linear than WoL. It makes the change she exhibits at the end seem unearned and out-of-the-blue. It also makes the "Raynor actually being alive and rescued" (and the being "executed" bit at the start) seem like some magic plot device akin to the artifact.


I could easily cite all the points Fanatic Templar made about how stupid Kerrigan is in Brood War but you'd just ignore it anyway.

FT only mentions Kerrigan's "stupidity" (competence) in contrast to the stupidity of all the other characters. As such, Kerrigan is actually the least stupid in BW. It's a roundabout way of him saying that the plotting of the story is stupid.

[TheEconomist]

You would react violently if you heard/saw someone you cared so deeply die.

It's already happened. A couple of times. I have yet to overreact. Again, you are not some fount of wisdom. Please, please, please stop with the cliche absolutes.

[KaiserStratosTygo]

It's already happened. A couple of times. I have yet to overreact. Again, you are not some fount of wisdom. Please, please, please stop with the cliche absolutes.

You might as well give up on arguing with Rag, he'll find some way to weasel an excuse as to how Kerrigan's actions are not only rational but acceptable.

[ragnarok]

It's already happened. A couple of times. I have yet to overreact. Again, you are not some fount of wisdom. Please, please, please stop with the cliche absolutes.

Neither have I, not to that extent anyways. Regardless, these cliches are necessary. You just don't see why just yet.

[TheEconomist]

Regardless, these cliches are necessary. You just don't see why just yet.

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/idjut.gif

I wonder Rag, how is that you think you've obtained such great wisdom doing nothing but spamming StarCraft forums? Call me when you've done something, kid. Haha. Hilarious.

[ragnarok]

Then you can look at the new thread I'm putting up.

[Aldrius]

Fanatic Templar went into detail about how Kerrigan was actually a.) incompetent and b.) inconsistent. Aldrius basically put his hands in his ears and said LALALALALALALALALA I'm not listening LALALALALALALALALA! I quoted Hawki earlier but honestly I think Aldrius is in denial and can't admit Brood War actually isn't that good a story. In terms of character evolution HOTS Kerrigan kills Brood War Kerrigan, desecrates the corpse and shits on the grave. Being introspective is not a bad thing. If you only play as a colossal asshole it gets boring. Aldrius seems to think Kerrigan should only ever be evil and violent. I LIKE my characters actually being forced to address whether or not what they do is wrong and possibly changing for the better. HOTS had problems. Kerrigan being forced to face her actions and think about them was not one of them.

I freely acknowledge HOTS had problems. That's why I suggested this thread in the first place. But those who claim Brood War is a good story are kidding themselves

You didn't actually respond to anything I said yet -- without quoting someone else as if they're an authority on storytelling and not just another poster on a web forum, so I'm still waiting for you to respond. Not agreeing with a point doesn't mean I ignored it.

The follow up to Brood War SHOULD have been her turning human again and having to face up to all the awful things she's done, that is the natural continuation of the storyline and a very strong direction to take it in. But not in the way Heart did it, and she should have ACTUALLY BEEN PUNISHED. Characters should not have reacted to Kerrigan and just NOT CARED about what she did in Brood War.

But Raynor? Zeratul? Artanis? None of them GIVE A SHIT. What the hell IS that? Zeratul just goes back to his default 'prophecy' stance. Nothing about how this woman manipulated him and forced him to kill the one person he cared about. Raynor is just... horny I guess. No conflict there whatsoever, this woman has been on a killing spree since Overmind. he's been bit in the ass for trusting her and trying to see the best in her before and now he just... doesn't care. Artanis seems warier of Zeratul than he does of Kerrigan. This from the guy who swore revenge on her at the end of Brood War and basically said they'd never forget what she'd done. Kerrigan doesn't earn her redemption at all, it's pathetic. And then at the end of the story she turns into an angel and gets to live happily ever after with Jim Raynor.

WHAT?

That's how the followup to THIS ends?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIt4tmkvVtE

A power-mad dictator declaring her ultimate victory over her enemies sort of dryly observing the end result of her victory like Sun Tzu or something while her incredibly moralistic and righteous opponent commits suicide over the guilt that he just can't handle. THIS is followed up with by that exact same character righteously declaring "I choose FREEDOM!"? It's the most bipolar nonsense. And then she runs off with Jim Raynor in the sappiest way possible. You want to end it that way? Fine. But it had damn well better be earned.

Yes there are some flaws in Brood War, but they're mostly mechanical and have to do with dealing with the medium itself (needing stuff for people to fight over on maps is why there's so many McGuffins for example), revisiting the same locations over and over is due to the limited number of tile sets available. And there are some poorly handled sequences (like the whole Matriarch-Zeratul-Kerrigan thing doesn't bug me that much, but I concede the way it's presented it makes Zeratul look pretty stupid rather than just not wanting to believe the Matriarch could or has been corrupted).

But I'm not gonna act like there should have been some scene where Kerrigan sits there all weepy about the things she's done and pines for Jim Raynor, that would have been awful. That would have made her look like a massive hypocrite, a weak-willed school girl who can't handle what needs to be done to achieve the goals she's laid out for herself. It makes her seem so infantile and ignorant.

Power has a cost. And that cost is usually destroying good people who don't deserve it. That's Brood War's treatise -- particularly True Colours. Kerrigan DOES think she's morally righteous in Brood War. That's what her whole conversations with Fenix, Duke, Mengsk and Raynor are all about. Now she has the power, now she decides what's right and what's wrong, and the universe will have to accept it.

That's consistent. Having your protagonist have consistent behaviours and goals is not bad writing. Having a character who has an objective and sticks to that objective through out the story doesn't make them boring or bland or whatever you're trying to argue.

[ragnarok]

A power-mad dictator declaring her ultimate victory over her enemies sort of dryly observing the end result of her victory like Sun Tzu or something while her incredibly moralistic and righteous opponent commits suicide over the guilt that he just can't handle. THIS is followed up with by that exact same character righteously declaring "I choose FREEDOM!"? It's the most bipolar nonsense. And then she runs off with Jim Raynor in the sappiest way possible. You want to end it that way? Fine. But it had damn well better be earned.



This is what a lot of people I spoke to online said, even those who supported the relationship, and I agreed with them. In the end, Kerrigan sacrificed NOTHING in order to get what she wanted. Even if she really wasn't able to be together with Raynor in the end, that's way too small of a sacrifice. Her actions on Kaldir and the evolution missions involving killing Protoss were ignored in LotV, and while Amon's threat had to be dealt with, Artanis should have at least raised such an issue with her.

Assuming the war against Amon forced it on hold, that's perfectly acceptable, but it cannot be cancelled. Kerrigan admitted many times over in HotS she'll have to pay the price for what she did once the war with Mengsk was over, she should have realized that just because Amon entered the picture would NOT mean everyone will simply forget her past actions.

Furthermore, her actions against the Protoss are inconsistent as seen in HotS and LotV. On one hand, she felt killing the Protoss on Kaldir was necessary to prevent them from contacting Shakuras. If you do this after Zerus, it'd imply she still respected the Protoss' firepower as she's admitting even with the primal transformation, she's no match for their fleet without the swarm.

But on the other hand, she scorned Zeratul's actions in the 1st prologue mission. Granted she might have felt she had been tricked by him on the Zerus matter, but in that sense she felt the Protoss people were just stupid. This would then explain why she didn't bother taking the feral Zerg broods off Aiur, as she would have felt the Firstborn were too dumb to do anything other than play into Amon's hands. This arrogance was EXACTLY the reason why her swarm got shredded at Ulnar for her foolish belief that "the swarm pwns all."

[DDay]

no
-1

[ragnarok]

Boring, DDay. You'll have to do better than that. Besides, I try to work with what was given in the 3 games and try to find a way around it.

[DDay]

Boring, DDay. You'll have to do better than that. Besides, I try to work with what was given in the 3 games and try to find a way around it.

stay bronze, boi

[ragnarok]

stay bronze, boi

It's exactly comments like that that got you unwelcome in the general forums on battlenet.

[Sheliek]

no
-1

ou bby did you get banned from battle.net? :(

[Nissa]

On topic, I think SCII should be reworked...into the garbage.

*sigh* fine, I'll take it seriously.

1. Don't base the Terran expansion on Raynor. Jimmy, despite my belief he's the main character of SC, really functions best when he's on the side of a major action that's going on -- he's not in charge of Mengsk's rise to power, he pals around to help Tassadar's goals, he helps 'Toss get to Shakuras, he helps Kerrigan against the UED -- basically, any time when Jimmy is only a small cog in big events. Raynor isn't a rebel leader of a large number of people. He's just someone who tries to do right in whatever situation he happens to find himself.

2. If possible, avoid the whole "each race gets an expansion." I don't want to say it can't work, but it's definitely working from a disadvantage, because we don't get a sampler of what's happening with each race. The Protoss get basically no setup, the Zerg don't have enough characters that matter, and Raynor consumes all the focus of the Terrans, when really this would be the perfect time to bring in Umoja and Moria. Because the focus of each expansion is so singular, the games feel narrow and boxed in -- even more than when the characters were in literal boxes in SC1.

3. I'll say it until I pass out. Making the Khala bad is a dumb idea and narrows the plot potential of the Protoss, not to mention turning Artanis into an obtuse political diatribe against intolerance.

4. I haven't quite passed out yet, so I'll say this again too: absolutely no robots with personalities of dead heroes. Bringing Fenix back hurt me in writer ways I have never been hurt before. Robots could have worked only if they were "present tense" -- they improved during the time between games, and any issues the Protoss were having with them could be set up properly over SC2, like humans encounter a settlement of autonomous robots, or something.

5. Resolve or remove the Tal'darim. Are they druggies, fanatics, or an independent sect? Their every appearance is something different, with no logic in itself or connection to the others. It also feels really weird that Artanis is puttering around with Tal'darim traditions when far more important matters are on the line. If he was going to participate in Tal'darim leadership rites, or whatever (I don't care enough to understand it), then this should have appeared in a previous expansion, so that Artie can focus on making sure his people survive during the climax of the sequel. Or else separate Artie (or another 'Toss) to do the whole Tal'darim thing while everyone else is doing stuff that matters.

Although I personally prefer the nonexistence of the Tal'darim. I'm sure there's another character out there de Lancie can voice.

6. Don't make Tychus Findlay a serious part of the plot. Findlay is a great flavor character with a fun personality, and is the only thing that feels like a holdover from SC1. Making him a convoluted part of Mengsk's scheming ruins his potential. Though certainly his death is pretty representative of how Blizzard feels about SC1 -- kill the authentic, keep the Mary Sue.

7. Give the whole thing a completely different plot and scope. It needs to remember that Starcraft is science fiction and has a male target audience. No Mary Sues, fewer female Protoss (yeah, I said it), and no brood mothers. And no prophecies, no emo Zeratul, no Raynor killing 'Toss for money, Mengsk doesn't die or dies better, and Kerrigan's redemption is more about morals than it is about her physical being. No Xel'Naga Kerri, and possibly she dies.

[KaiserStratosTygo]

ou bby did you get banned from battle.net? :(

be nice, we're refugees!

Battlenet is basically Syria.

[Aldrius]

Don't make Tychus Findlay a serious part of the plot. Findlay is a great flavor character with a fun personality, and is the only thing that feels like a holdover from SC1. Making him a convoluted part of Mengsk's scheming ruins his potential. Though certainly his death is pretty representative of how Blizzard feels about SC1 -- kill the authentic, keep the Mary Sue.

I thought that he was working for Valerian to get the artifacts was fine.

The twist upon a twist was pointless.

[ragnarok]

be nice, we're refugees!

Battlenet is basically Syria.

Your ban I didn't agree with, Stratos. You didn't deserve it. But DDay once told me that he got kicked many times over for being a jerk on there, so in his case....

[TheEconomist]

Meanwhile, I've been trollin' since '09 and not so much as a stern notification.

[Turalyon]

It needs to remember that Starcraft is science fiction and has a male target audience. No Mary Sues, fewer female Protoss (yeah, I said it), and no brood mothers.

How do those things detract away from the male target audience? I'm sure there are guys who work up a slather over ass shots of Infested Kerrigan, so I'm sure there are some sicko's who "love" the idea of female Protoss or Zerg characters (blechh).

[Eligor]

On topic, I think SCII should be reworked...into the garbage.

*sigh* fine, I'll take it seriously.

1. Don't base the Terran expansion on Raynor. Jimmy, despite my belief he's the main character of SC, really functions best when he's on the side of a major action that's going on -- he's not in charge of Mengsk's rise to power, he pals around to help Tassadar's goals, he helps 'Toss get to Shakuras, he helps Kerrigan against the UED -- basically, any time when Jimmy is only a small cog in big events. Raynor isn't a rebel leader of a large number of people. He's just someone who tries to do right in whatever situation he happens to find himself.

2. If possible, avoid the whole "each race gets an expansion." I don't want to say it can't work, but it's definitely working from a disadvantage, because we don't get a sampler of what's happening with each race. The Protoss get basically no setup, the Zerg don't have enough characters that matter, and Raynor consumes all the focus of the Terrans, when really this would be the perfect time to bring in Umoja and Moria. Because the focus of each expansion is so singular, the games feel narrow and boxed in -- even more than when the characters were in literal boxes in SC1.

3. I'll say it until I pass out. Making the Khala bad is a dumb idea and narrows the plot potential of the Protoss, not to mention turning Artanis into an obtuse political diatribe against intolerance.

4. I haven't quite passed out yet, so I'll say this again too: absolutely no robots with personalities of dead heroes. Bringing Fenix back hurt me in writer ways I have never been hurt before. Robots could have worked only if they were "present tense" -- they improved during the time between games, and any issues the Protoss were having with them could be set up properly over SC2, like humans encounter a settlement of autonomous robots, or something.

5. Resolve or remove the Tal'darim. Are they druggies, fanatics, or an independent sect? Their every appearance is something different, with no logic in itself or connection to the others. It also feels really weird that Artanis is puttering around with Tal'darim traditions when far more important matters are on the line. If he was going to participate in Tal'darim leadership rites, or whatever (I don't care enough to understand it), then this should have appeared in a previous expansion, so that Artie can focus on making sure his people survive during the climax of the sequel. Or else separate Artie (or another 'Toss) to do the whole Tal'darim thing while everyone else is doing stuff that matters.

Although I personally prefer the nonexistence of the Tal'darim. I'm sure there's another character out there de Lancie can voice.

6. Don't make Tychus Findlay a serious part of the plot. Findlay is a great flavor character with a fun personality, and is the only thing that feels like a holdover from SC1. Making him a convoluted part of Mengsk's scheming ruins his potential. Though certainly his death is pretty representative of how Blizzard feels about SC1 -- kill the authentic, keep the Mary Sue.

7. Give the whole thing a completely different plot and scope. It needs to remember that Starcraft is science fiction and has a male target audience. No Mary Sues, fewer female Protoss (yeah, I said it), and no brood mothers. And no prophecies, no emo Zeratul, no Raynor killing 'Toss for money, Mengsk doesn't die or dies better, and Kerrigan's redemption is more about morals than it is about her physical being. No Xel'Naga Kerri, and possibly she dies.

Can I just second everything you said?

These are all very astute and correct observations about SC. Feel exactly the same way about Raynor and Tychus (in Tychus' case without being exactly consciously aware of it, but you're right, he's the only or almost only thing that feels like "classic StarCraft").

I used to feel agnostic about RoboFenix, but now I feel that it's just a bad and artless exploitation of nostalgia.

Also VERY much agree re:Kerrigan-redemption etcetera.

Also about the games feeling "boxed in".
There is A LOT that could be shown that wasn't.

I also increasingly feel that revealing anything about the Xel'Naga was a mistake, it all ended up disappointing and generic although artistically well executed (like the labyrinth map on that interdimensional octahedron thingy in Void). There might have been a way to carry off the Hybrid/Duran arc well, but they've botched it up.

[ragnarok]

Meanwhile, I've been trollin' since '09 and not so much as a stern notification.

They probably just REALLY didn't like you.

[Nissa]

How do those things detract away from the male target audience? I'm sure there are guys who work up a slather over ass shots of Infested Kerrigan, so I'm sure there are some sicko's who "love" the idea of female Protoss or Zerg characters (blechh).

Well for one thing, exactly. It attracts the sickos. That, and bringing female characters into a story alters that story to a female mindset, simply because female characters have female minds, and aren't going to act like or necessarily understand guys. Not to mention that the female characters presented in SC2 are all generic nothings, there only to fulfill a politically correct demographic, not tell a story that is interesting or in some way requires a female perspective. Blizzard only adds the female elements to make sure no one accuses them of being sexist.

IMAO, it's more "sexist" to have lame female characters than to have few or none. All I ask for is a good story. Demographics don't matter.

[KaiserStratosTygo]

I need a skinny tan guy with bad eyesight and a thin spindly beard to identify with or I RIOT

[Nissa]

I need a skinny tan guy with bad eyesight and a thin spindly beard to identify with or I RIOT

Oh yes, feminist "logic." "Improving" stories since at least the 80s.

[ragnarok]

I need a skinny tan guy with bad eyesight and a thin spindly beard to identify with or I RIOT

But you already are rioting, Stratos. No one is going listen now to the claims that you plan to riot

[Turalyon]

Well for one thing, exactly. It attracts the sickos. That, and bringing female characters into a story alters that story to a female mindset, simply because female characters have female minds, and aren't going to act like or necessarily understand guys. Not to mention that the female characters presented in SC2 are all generic nothings, there only to fulfill a politically correct demographic, not tell a story that is interesting or in some way requires a female perspective. Blizzard only adds the female elements to make sure no one accuses them of being sexist.

Well, the generic female characters aren't really altering the story to a female mindset in Sc2 anyway so I don't see how the inclusion of characters who just happen to be female detracts away from the story having a male target audience.

[DDay]

ou bby did you get banned from battle.net? :(

yeah i got banned for having too much muscle

http://imgur.com/4HtSirP

[KaiserStratosTygo]

Oh yes, feminist "logic." "Improving" stories since at least the 80s.

Isn't it great?

Quotas are AWESOME.

Where are the curvy women-

fuck this I can't do this anymore, even making jokes about this bullshit makes me mad as hell.


"But you already are rioting, Stratos. No one is going listen now to the claims that you plan to riot"

RIOT I say! cars shall be burned! businesses looted! the house of cards will come down!


"yeah i got banned for having too much muscle"

I got banned for praising you :(..

[ragnarok]

Isn't it great?
RIOT I say! cars shall be burned! businesses looted! the house of cards will come down!


That's actually not too far away in the future, given everyone's situation....

[KaiserStratosTygo]

That's actually not too far away in the future, given everyone's situation....

Well if the SJWs get their way, society itself will collapse.

[ragnarok]

Well if the SJWs get their way, society itself will collapse.

Society IS on the verge of collapsing. Maybe not where you are, but here in southern CA where I am, I wouldn't be surprised if it's about to reach rioting point.

[Nissa]

Well, the generic female characters aren't really altering the story to a female mindset in Sc2 anyway so I don't see how the inclusion of characters who just happen to be female detracts away from the story having a male target audience.

It's hard to explain, but the addition of cheap female characters in a desperate bid to provide "strong women" detracts from not only storytelling opportunities for non-PC characters, but forces the plot to go through all the generic stereotypes of its politically correct message. That is, it's PC to talk about tolerance, so LotV is all about tolerance and the attacking of any least sign of intolerance.

[Gradius]

Society IS on the verge of collapsing. Maybe not where you are, but here in southern CA where I am, I wouldn't be surprised if it's about to reach rioting point.
It almost sounds like the first imminent signs of..Ragnarok

[TheEconomist]

*Ragpalm*

[ragnarok]

It almost sounds like the first imminent signs of..Ragnarok

Yes but fortunately THAT event did not mean the end of all life forever...

[KaiserStratosTygo]

It's hard to explain, but the addition of cheap female characters in a desperate bid to provide "strong women" detracts from not only storytelling opportunities for non-PC characters, but forces the plot to go through all the generic stereotypes of its politically correct message. That is, it's PC to talk about tolerance, so LotV is all about tolerance and the attacking of any least sign of intolerance.

Pretty much this.

nobody can write female characters normally, it always has to be some weird appeasement over-corrective nonsense to appeal to SJWs (A futile endeavor indeed)

[Visions of Khas]

It's hard to explain, but the addition of cheap female characters in a desperate bid to provide "strong women" detracts from not only storytelling opportunities for non-PC characters, but forces the plot to go through all the generic stereotypes of its politically correct message. That is, it's PC to talk about tolerance, so LotV is all about tolerance and the attacking of any least sign of intolerance.

Rohana was one of the best things to come out of LotV, and not because she's a female; I didn't see a "desperate bid to provide a strong woman", just a strong and complex character. The messages of tolerance and unity are ongoing themes in StarCraft, they didn't simply pop out of the ether.

[ragnarok]

Rohana was one of the best things to come out of LotV, and not because she's a female; I didn't see a "desperate bid to provide a strong woman", just a strong and complex character. The messages of tolerance and unity are ongoing themes in StarCraft, they didn't simply pop out of the ether.

Yes but there are also those who got critical of her because of her unwillingness to sever herself from the Khala. There are commentaries in the LPs that've said that the whole being stuck in the past is exactly what's helping Amon in the first place.

[Visions of Khas]

Yes but there are also those who got critical of her because of her unwillingness to sever herself from the Khala. There are commentaries in the LPs that've said that the whole being stuck in the past is exactly what's helping Amon in the first place.

And what of Aldaris? He too was chained to the past, but in the end came to terms with his bigotry and came to appreciate the Dark Templar, if not like them.

Rohana just walked from one era of history and into another. The Khala is all she knows. So it was realistic for her to cling to it. Don't tell me that you'd adapt just like that if you were sent to 1700s America. Besides, her dedication, coupled with her ability to embrace a new destiny, is what led to Amon's downfall.

[Turalyon]

It's hard to explain, but the addition of cheap female characters in a desperate bid to provide "strong women" detracts from not only storytelling opportunities for non-PC characters, but forces the plot to go through all the generic stereotypes of its politically correct message. That is, it's PC to talk about tolerance, so LotV is all about tolerance and the attacking of any least sign of intolerance.

In this particular instance, I'm not sure if the issue is really is about the addition of cheap female characters (and consequences of that) but rather that it's about cheap characters in general (which Sc2 is chock full of). To me, that some of them happen to be female is inconsequential really.

For instance, Vorazun and Rohana in LotV could well have been male for all I care and my opinion of them as characters still won't change just because they happen to be female and that they weren't done as proper female characters (whatever the hell that's supposed to mean). Anyhow, the character archetypes that Vorazun and Rohana represent are of individuals in positions of great power (leader of Nerazim and grand preserver) such that, in this particular type of narrative, those roles they play would supersede the "requirement" to have them first as "proper female characters".

[ragnarok]

And what of Aldaris? He too was chained to the past, but in the end came to terms with his bigotry and came to appreciate the Dark Templar, if not like them.

Rohana just walked from one era of history and into another. The Khala is all she knows. So it was realistic for her to cling to it. Don't tell me that you'd adapt just like that if you were sent to 1700s America. Besides, her dedication, coupled with her ability to embrace a new destiny, is what led to Amon's downfall.

I'm not really sure about that part with Aldaris. Even if that was the case, the former Conclave members certain didn't adjust. If you look at Nahaan in the DT Saga Twilight, I'm sure you'd see.

[Nissa]

In this particular instance, I'm not sure if the issue is really is about the addition of cheap female characters (and consequences of that) but rather that it's about cheap characters in general (which Sc2 is chock full of). To me, that some of them happen to be female is inconsequential really.

For instance, Vorazun and Rohana in LotV could well have been male for all I care and my opinion of them as characters still won't change just because they happen to be female and that they weren't done as proper female characters (whatever the hell that's supposed to mean). Anyhow, the character archetypes that Vorazun and Rohana represent are of individuals in positions of great power (leader of Nerazim and grand preserver) such that, in this particular type of narrative, those roles they play would supersede the "requirement" to have them first as "proper female characters".


Well, I say female because that's the problem. Female characters in modern stories, not just Starcraft, "have" to be "strong" -- that is, they are forced to be boring in every appearance. Male characters have not reached that state. They still get to be unique and interesting. Most women characters, despite being "strong", are still stuck in the mode of being "the female character." Since there's so many female characters and none of them rise above "the female character", I'm super bored by the whole exercise.

Pfft. Rohana was stale as an old bagel. When I think of how epic Aldaris' dialogue was, I can't even stand to look at her cutscenes.

That, and as a fan of male demographics, I prefer male characters. Male psychology is interesting to me, and since the PC police will never allow the negative aspects of female psychology to be properly displayed, most mainstream American female characters will never appeal to me. Honestly, if Hollywood would do female characters the way Azumanga Daioh does, that is, varied and flawed, I might care again.

[Turalyon]

Well, I say female because that's the problem.

Yeah well, I'm asking is it really the problem in Sc2 specifically? I don't think it is. Like I said, most of the ancillary characters in Sc2 are cheap, broad archetypes regardless of their sex.


Female characters in modern stories, not just Starcraft, "have" to be "strong" -- that is, they are forced to be boring in every appearance. Male characters have not reached that state.

This is debatable. I could just as easily swap male and female in that quote above and none will be the wiser.


Pfft. Rohana was stale as an old bagel. When I think of how epic Aldaris' dialogue was, I can't even stand to look at her cutscenes.

I can accept that but this is an indictment of the character that is depicted as "Rohana", not really an indictment of the character being presented/misrepresented of a particular sex though. For me, the issue is that the character is just a "hat" irrespective of the sex of who is wearing it.

[Sheliek]

Are we talking about how oppresslematic SC2 is? I always found the lack of demiboys and other cries for attention in the story totes problematic and indicative of the handiwork of the Illuminati on the writing team.

- - - Updated - - -

Patriarchy, not Illuminati. Whoops!

[KaiserStratosTygo]

Are we talking about how oppresslematic SC2 is? I always found the lack of demiboys and other cries for attention in the story totes problematic and indicative of the handiwork of the Illuminati on the writing team.

- - - Updated - - -

Patriarchy, not Illuminati. Whoops!

Not enough triangles in SC for the illumanti to be involved.

basic conspiracy 101.

[Sheliek]

No!~~~ I misspelled the totally real and oppressive cabal of an entire gender and race, the Patriarchy. Silly me haha Unlike the evil cabal of the elite group of wealthy technocrats that is the Illuminati. That would be way more absurd.

[Visions of Khas]

Kaise, don't you realize? There are a lot of squares in StarCraft. What are squares? Just two triangles!!

[Aldrius]

I really did not have a problem with Zagara, Vorazun or Rohanna... Silendis was okay too but never given anything to do.

Izsha sucked, but not because she was female.

Hanson was okay I guess. Pretty inoffensive, but also pretty unnecessary.

Kerrigan in WoL was all right I guess. Hated her in HotS.

Never really liked Nova.

Having to write female characters too safely is a problem and kind of always has been (I think people wrote more interesting female parts back in the 30's-60's than what we saw in the 70's and 80's). I don't think women having agency and being assertive was the problem, though. The opposite was certainly an issue for a really long time, though.

[Turalyon]

Kaise, don't you realize? There are a lot of squares in StarCraft. What are squares? Just two triangles!!

Clearly, you're too simple-minded. Eight triangles make up a square, at a mininum. :p


I don't think women having agency and being assertive was the problem, though.

Apparently (according to Nissa at any rate), this quality makes Sc2 detract from it's core sci fi and male target audience. I guess the solution then is to have no female characters whatosever for any reason, or if there's an inclination to include them, they should be submissive and/or superfluous in order to maintain integrity to this target audience.... Oh, what's that I hear? More complaining? I wonder why? :p

[Visions of Khas]

For the record, Ellen Ripley, Korra (yay Korrasami!), Katniss, River Tam, and Kara Thrace are my favorite characters ever.

[KaiserStratosTygo]

Kaise, don't you realize? There are a lot of squares in StarCraft. What are squares? Just two triangles!!

!!

You have opened my mind.

and Muspelli is an ILLUMINATI AGENT, HE'S TRYING TO THROW US OFF HIS TRAIL!

[ragnarok]

I really did not have a problem with Zagara, Vorazun or Rohanna... Silendis was okay too but never given anything to do.

Izsha sucked, but not because she was female.

Hanson was okay I guess. Pretty inoffensive, but also pretty unnecessary.

Kerrigan in WoL was all right I guess. Hated her in HotS.

Never really liked Nova.

Having to write female characters too safely is a problem and kind of always has been (I think people wrote more interesting female parts back in the 30's-60's than what we saw in the 70's and 80's). I don't think women having agency and being assertive was the problem, though. The opposite was certainly an issue for a really long time, though.

Selendis was taken out of the picture too early because she came under Amon's control. It would have been better if we got to play a few missions from Amon's POV, where we got to control Selendis. But then, if she'd be just stuck in the carrier like what happened in "In Utter Darkness," it'd be meh.

Izsha should have gotten more personality since Blizzard originally intended her to be Amanda Haley. I had hoped that in HotS Kerrigan could have showed regret for what she did to her. Overall that was her main problem in HotS and LotV: she never really understood that people would hold the past against her even if it really COULD have been proven that everything she did was all due to Amon's influence (which obviously wasn't the case).

That, combined with the whole entitlement factor, means there's still plenty of retribution to come.

[Aldrius]

I think they're done with Kerrigan. For better or worse.

And getting some of Amon's perspective would have been cool (ala Reign of Chaos Undead campaign I suppose) but honestly I think even with that the whole Golden Armada plotline should have been resolved by -- at the latest -- the halfway point.

The whole SC2 campaign is a bit too monomaniacal with each storyline (except Wings of Liberty -- which just doesn't resolve anything). Like mengsk should have been dealt with by at the absolutely LATEST 60% mark in the campaign. That dragged on way too long.

[ragnarok]

I think they're done with Kerrigan. For better or worse.

And getting some of Amon's perspective would have been cool (ala Reign of Chaos Undead campaign I suppose) but honestly I think even with that the whole Golden Armada plotline should have been resolved by -- at the latest -- the halfway point.

The whole SC2 campaign is a bit too monomaniacal with each storyline (except Wings of Liberty -- which just doesn't resolve anything). Like mengsk should have been dealt with by at the absolutely LATEST 60% mark in the campaign. That dragged on way too long.

For Mengsk's case, they wanted Kerrigan to be the one to kill her. That's fine, but if that's truly what they wanted, Raynor should have just deinfested her much early on in the campaign, and then we can spend the rest of WoL to have him killed.

[Nissa]

I can accept that but this is an indictment of the character that is depicted as "Rohana", not really an indictment of the character being presented/misrepresented of a particular sex though. For me, the issue is that the character is just a "hat" irrespective of the sex of who is wearing it.

If this were just a SC problem, I would agree with you. The truth of the matter is, writers of movies/games/books care so much about making a woman "powerful" that they sacrifice good characters for feminist messages. The male characters suck in SC for different reasons (except Dehaka, he fits the boring/powerful mold too, but has no PC motivations behind him).

My plain, simple point is this. In purely writing terms, it does not matter if any character is powerful. It only matters if they're interesting. Heck, Raynor accomplishes basically nothing positive in SC/BW, but he's an amazing character. Because California is hip-deep in PC messages, anything that even appears to defy PC sentiment invites antagonism, and not merely concerning feminism. Good writing will only return when people care more about good story than offending people who say things like "micro-aggression." A woman can be powerful and non-PC, but we're not going to see that until Blizz gets it.

[Visions of Khas]

A woman can be powerful and non-PC, but we're not going to see that until Blizz gets it.
In your opinion, who is a good fictional female character?

[Gradius]

In your opinion, who is a good fictional female character?
Ilia Volyova from Revelation Space.

[TheEconomist]

Ilia Volyova from Revelation Space.

Damn straight, badass female done right.

Although I'm sure a feminist would call her a "Man with Tits" trope.

Nissa is right though. The respose by feminists to the female characters in Game of Thrones proves it. The series has some of the best female characters I know of, yet, feminists can only talk about my it shows the patriarchy can only allow bitchy, crazy women to be in power, as if the men are somehow better ...?

[Turalyon]

If this were just a SC problem, I would agree with you.

But we are talking only about Sc2 here.


The truth of the matter is, writers of movies/games/books care so much about making a woman "powerful" that they sacrifice good characters for feminist messages.

By that same accord, I should lament that most pop-fiction is all about making a man/men "powerful" that they sacrifice good characters for masculinist messages. It cuts both ways.

It's not necessarily a bad thing though. If the genre is action, one should expect "powerful" characters (being "well-written" is not always a prerequisite) whether male or female, unless the fictional universe sets up a notion (not a preconceived one) for why it shouldn't be.

Besides, what you seem to be referring to is but one facet of a thing called tokenism in general. Really, one could endlessly accuse every piece of fiction ever made of this at one point or another.


My plain, simple point is this. In purely writing terms, it does not matter if any character is powerful. It only matters if they're interesting.

This I can agree on. Sc2 has a distinct lack of interesting (but powerful) characters, whether they happen to be male or female is inconsequential.


Heck, Raynor accomplishes basically nothing positive in SC/BW, but he's an amazing character.

Amazing? Eh, to me, he was boring from the get-go and still is. A classic male protagonist archetype. He's just your typical "everyman" character that the audience member can identify with and he does that serviceably well. Mengsk on the hand, he was interesting and had potential in Sc1... and then he becomes/remains as a caricature from BW onwards.

[Aldrius]

I don't think Mengsk is really a caricature in Brood War. If anything he's the victim of someone who's just more of a megalomaniac than he is.

And yes tokenism and the inability to please a feminist narrative (or the bulk of feminist audience members) without making the female character incredibly stale is a problem. That doesn't necessarily mean including a multitude of female characters with authority/strength in some sense (especially in an action game narrative, which requires these qualities) is a downside.

[Nissa]

In your opinion, who is a good fictional female character?

Oh, there's so many....

Mattie Ross from the John Wayne version of True Grit.
Kasuga Ayumu from Azumanga Daioh. Actually, the whole female cast of Azumanga Daioh.
Sonya Blade from Mortal Kombat 1995.
Eowyn from LOTR.
The bratty chicks from O Brother Where Art Thou? and Taken. You don't have to be a good person to be a good character.


Oh Tura, just take my word for it already. And read Aldrius' post.


I don't think Mengsk is really a caricature in Brood War. If anything he's the victim of someone who's just more of a megalomaniac than he is.

Chris Metzen?

[ragnarok]

I don't think Mengsk is really a caricature in Brood War. If anything he's the victim of someone who's just more of a megalomaniac than he is.



So blame the Confederacy for that. That being said, how do you think Mengsk's path would have gone if the Confederacy never ordered Kerrigan to kill his father?

[Aldrius]

Oh, there's so many....

Mattie Ross from the John Wayne version of True Grit.
Kasuga Ayumu from Azumanga Daioh. Actually, the whole female cast of Azumanga Daioh.
Sonya Blade from Mortal Kombat 1995.
Eowyn from LOTR.
The bratty chicks from O Brother Where Art Thou? and Taken. You don't have to be a good person to be a good character.


Oh Tura, just take my word for it already. And read Aldrius' post.

Honestly hollywood probably has the worst reputation for female characters ever.

Even anime and video games fare better than the bulk of Hollywood.

[Turalyon]

Oh Tura, just take my word for it already. And read Aldrius' post.

I did read it. He doesn't agree with me about Mengsk being a caricature from BW onwards but he's backing what I've been saying with the rest.

[Nissa]

Sometimes I wonder if you even catch what I'm saying, Tura.

Basically, Starcraft does not exist in a story void. All the stuff going on in California affects it, because the culture there affects the people who write. and female characters happen to suck a lot right now, because they can't do anything without feminists complaining.

Yeesh.

[Visions of Khas]

female characters happen to suck a lot right now, because they can't do anything without feminists complaining.

Looking at your favorite characters, Nissa, and considering female StarCraft characters like Rohana... I'm still having trouble trying to understand your complaints about them.

[Turalyon]

Sometimes I wonder if you even catch what I'm saying, Tura.

Even VoK doesn't understand where you're coming from. Not my fault that you're unclear.

I actually do understand what you're trying to get at though, better than you realise perhaps. By denying the impact/seriousness of how it relates to Sc2 specifically (a position that is also debatable but has equal merit to the one you're claiming), I'm just putting your position through its paces.


Basically, Starcraft does not exist in a story void. All the stuff going on in California affects it, because the culture there affects the people who write.

So? By that measure, one can also generalise that no fictional story ever exists in a story void either. Doesn't mean they're influenced solely by the one thing that you're claiming it to be.


and female characters happen to suck a lot right now, because they can't do anything without feminists complaining.

"Feminists" will always find something to complain about. If it's not lack of representation (beyond being included outright), it's inaccurate or harmful representation (beyond being excluded outright) with no in-between.

When it comes to Sc2, I'm sure feminists will have lots to say about all the female characters present (heck, I could easily assume that SJW position if I were even remotely inclined to - I'm not and I won't) but I'm somewhat doubtful that the way they were portrayed and written were actually or largely due to the writers being conscientious of possible feminist opinions in the first instance. I'm more inclined to think that why most of the aspects regarding story (including its female characters) "suck" in Sc2 is because the writers were implementing "rule of cool" as their guiding principle above all else.

[ragnarok]

Sometimes I wonder if you even catch what I'm saying, Tura.

Basically, Starcraft does not exist in a story void. All the stuff going on in California affects it, because the culture there affects the people who write. and female characters happen to suck a lot right now, because they can't do anything without feminists complaining.

Yeesh.

Do you really think if the writing team was from outside CA the SC2 story would have gone differently?

[Nissa]

Do you really think if the writing team was from outside CA the SC2 story would have gone differently?

Yeah, actually. Well, it depends on how far away they could have gotten from Hollywood influence. So long as they could have escaped PC themes, yeah.

[sandwich_bird]

Considering that there are many studios in California that don't give a crap about feminism(Santa Monica studio of God of War for example) and that feminism wasn't as mainstream during the development days of WoL, I'm not sure how much the argument that "Blizzard were influenced because they are in CA" holds true. Pretty sure a feminist team would fight hard to not have Kerrigan wear high heals but of course that is down to the art team and not the writing team. Still, you'd expect the art designer to be as influenced.

The "rule of cool" seems like the better answer.

[KaiserStratosTygo]

"Pretty sure a feminist team would fight hard to not have Kerrigan wear high heals "

Some would do the opposite, that's how contradictory they are.

[ragnarok]

Yeah, actually. Well, it depends on how far away they could have gotten from Hollywood influence. So long as they could have escaped PC themes, yeah.

Somehow I don't think they could have gotten far from Hollywood's influence, assuming they would even try to.

[Drake Clawfang]

Make the Tal'darim throughout the trilogy the same faction, and replace the Tal'darim Executor with Ma'lash who escapes at the end of the artifact missions. This gives the Tal'darim a more consistent racial identity through the campaign and provides an overarcing Protoss villain, instead of two very undeveloped separate villains. Accordingly, their dialogue would be rewritten to be consistent with their LotV depiction. Hand in hand with this, Tychus doesn't directly work for Moebius. He was given some data from Arcturus about some rare artifacts the Dominion is looking for, and relays that to Raynor as info he stole, and encourages him to steal the artifacts to sell to the Dominion and Moebius, or perhaps to use as bargaining chips of some sort.

In this revised story, Narud was having the Tal'darim gather the artifacts for him directly, but then Arcturus sent Tychus to infiltrate Raynor with some Moebius data to sway Raynor to his side, and Raynor got to the artifacts first. Narud thus gets them by going through Moebius and Valerian. He still calls Raynor in for help against Kerrigan, though, and at that point decides "okay, fine, I'll get the artifacts another way. The Raiders may prove useful anyway" and then they do by doing the Char stuff so Narud doesn't need to waste the Tal'darim on an invasion. This gives the Terrans a more fitting role, meddling in things they don't understand, getting involved in Narud's power plays with the Protoss and Zerg without even meaning to or realizing it, and being manipulated by higher powers.

Arcturus does not have the Keystone in HotS. Valerian and the Raiders got it back, and it plays no role in HotS (it might as well not have, anyway). The "transfer of energy and consciousness and information" nonsense is removed. Instead, the Keystone simply acts as a conduit for Void energy, absorbing and releasing it as needed. Considering it's heavily implied the Zerg use Void energies already, this means it can still de-infest Kerrigan and then do all the things it needs to in LotV. Instead of it randomly containing coordinates encoded on it, Karax discovers that the Keystone's connection to the Void can be traced to the source point, and he does this to find Ulnar.

Rewrite Raynor as having given up hope on rebelling against the Dominion, and now he's just trying to keep his ship together and help out folks where he can. The discovery of the adjutant and the meeting with Valerian will re-invigorate his motivation for both.

Plans were for the Bucephalus to be a story mode space, so make it one. The last three Char missions see you there instead of the Hyperion, able to talk to Warfield, Valerian, and Narud. This gives all three of them more depth and screentime. Valerian can mention Jake Ramsay in dialogue to tie back into the DT Saga. Maybe Jake told Valerian some stuff about the artifacts.

Merge Moebius and Project Shadowblade. The Moebius Foundation was formed out of ex-Shadowblade researchers, and Moebius is continuing their research on terrazine and Protoss relics. Tosh has heard of Moebius and provides some backstory on them and Shadowblade. This can serve to hint at more Amon and Tal'darim stuff, gives Tosh and Nova a connection to the main story so they have a reason to be here, and hints that Moebius is not a trustworthy organization. Hanson's research on a cure for Zerg infestation will include Raynor making reference to Stukov, and how he doesn't know what happened to him, Stukov took off with his old Confederate remnant buddies after escaping Braxis. This will foreshadow Stukov's return better and also tie back to the Deceptions map by inferring the Confederates there were Narud/Duran's men (something I already presumed anyway).

No amnesiac Kerrigan. Remove that plot point entirely. She fully remembers what she did and who she was. Also remove the "Amon's influence" stuff. Make it a thematic point that she was her own person as the Queen of Blades, that was all her, and she liked it. She slips back into that mindset with Raynor's death and nothing to live for but vengeance, but when she finds out he's alive she tries to become something better. Bring back scrapped plans for Kerrigan to mutate over the course of the campaign before she becomes fully re-infested. Make it a thematic element that she's becoming more Zerg again by choice because she wants the power back.

Remove the "Overmind's vision" stuff. Zeratul can still go chat with Ouros/Tassadar, and Tassadar tells him the Overmind was seeking the Artifacts, which embody great power and must not fall into Zerg hands. This accomplishes the same end (Zeratul tells Raynor to get the Artifacts) without any retcons to existing lore. Also, instead of "possessed" Protoss under the control of the Hybrid, it's the Tal'darim in Zeratul's flashback. Simple and done, conclusively establishes the Tal'darim as antagonists.

Narud is explicitly stated to by Duran to Stukov. They originally intended to so and there's no good reason why they shouldn't have.

[Turalyon]

^ This is all pretty well thought out and cohesive. I like how you've attempted to integrate the Tal'Darim in WoL but not so sure about you retaining the bit about Narud going through Raynor via Moebius and the Mengsk family. The majority of the artifacts are already under Narud's control since most of the artifact gathering missions involve Raynor attacking entrenched Tal'Darim positions - you know, the direct servants of Narud/Amon. The excuse that Narud didn't want to expend/waste his Tal'Darim doesn't really fly since that's what they're there for (to Narud and Amon that is) and that the only piece they were missing was the weakly guarded one on Mar Sara.

That being said, I like how you've distanced Tychus a little bit more from Moebius (having stolen the info rather than just been given a mission to look for artifacts) and trying to keep Raynor's band as some meddling force because you're right in that it feels more Terran-y that way. What I'm not sure about is Tychus' affiliation with Mengsk Snr - being his infiltrator should've resulted in some hampering of Raynor's efforts against the Dominion or if Tychus did go "off the reservation", there should've been some more immediate consequences against him. In short, there needs to be more exploration of Tychus if he's to remain as Mengsk's secret spy. That would mean more suspicion and action on the part of Raynor in trying to figure out the why/what/where regarding Tychus' sudden apperance.

I'd rather have it that Mengsk was not involved at all and that Tychus just wanted to kill Kerrigan of his own volition after learning about her and they're history because that's just the type of guy he is. One could just excise Mengsk's speech in the opening cinematic, the direct reference to Mengsk in the last cinematic and have Tychus being able to come out of his suit and you'd be none the wiser really. If one must include the suit being a MacGuffin or red herring (don't know why since it's not really necessary in this case), it could be that Moebius merely placing a hi-tech tracking beacon in it to show that Moebius aren't that dumb just letting Tychus go wandering about but mainly to act as an extra source of conflict between Tychus and Raynor.

I like your treatment of Kerrigan as being a continuous character. I'm a little mixed about Raynor's "death" and subsequent reveal of being a fake-out being the source of Kerrigan's change "for the better" since it's overtly manipulative narratively speaking and unsatisfying. Making a morality pet out of Raynor is demeaning to both Raynor and Kerrigan - moreso for Kerrigan because having her only be good because the continued existence of a man and his approval of her has all sorts of... unfortunate implications. Let's just say that that Believe In Me cinematic rubs the wrong way not only because of the cursory Fenix namedrop.

I'm all for almost any change regarding the Overmind stuff in Sc2 compared to what we actually got. It's all still gimmicky whichever way you slice it but in respects to your suggestion that the Overmind was seeking the artifacts when landing on Aiur, that's an example of a good additive retcon since it maintains continuity with what came before whilst providing some timely relevance to what is happening now. The Overmind was still seeking power and dominion over the Protoss with these artrifacts since it also ensured the freedom of the Zerg and was not some noble, misunderstood and benighted creature who was forced to do things it didn't want yet somehow was still able to do things it really wanted, which was committing suicide and shoving all it's responsibility of freeing the Zerg onto a creature it had just (by sheer luck, mind you) recently found.

[ragnarok]

No amnesiac Kerrigan. Remove that plot point entirely. She fully remembers what she did and who she was. Also remove the "Amon's influence" stuff. Make it a thematic point that she was her own person as the Queen of Blades, that was all her, and she liked it. She slips back into that mindset with Raynor's death and nothing to live for but vengeance, but when she finds out he's alive she tries to become something better. Bring back scrapped plans for Kerrigan to mutate over the course of the campaign before she becomes fully re-infested. Make it a thematic element that she's becoming more Zerg again by choice because she wants the power back.


That's never going to happen because Blizzard didn't understand how to make her better, so they chose to go backwards in the hopes the fans won't notice.

[Drake Clawfang]

I like how you've attempted to integrate the Tal'Darim in WoL but not so sure about you retaining the bit about Narud going through Raynor via Moebius and the Mengsk family. The majority of the artifacts are already under Narud's control since most of the artifact gathering missions involve Raynor attacking entrenched Tal'Darim positions - you know, the direct servants of Narud/Amon. The excuse that Narud didn't want to expend/waste his Tal'Darim doesn't really fly since that's what they're there for (to Narud and Amon that is) and that the only piece they were missing was the weakly guarded one on Mar Sara.

I mean that he just didn't want to use them for a Char invasion, when there are other things they'll be needed for later.

As for Narud, a few rewrites to missions can establish the Tal'darim are on worlds looking for the artifacts too, or they found one and are holding it for retrieval.

[Turalyon]

I mean that he just didn't want to use them for a Char invasion, when there are other things they'll be needed for later.

Like what though? Amon/Narud doesn't really need them to fight regular Protoss since he can mind-control the whole lot of them and he doesn't really need them to fight Terrans because they'd be considered weak, dumb and irrelevent to their plans anyway. If Narud didn't pit Raynor against his OWN forces, the Tal'Darim would've been perfectly suited to assaulting Char/Kerrigan.


As for Narud, a few rewrites to missions can establish the Tal'darim are on worlds looking for the artifacts too, or they found one and are holding it for retrieval.

It'd be "mighty convenient" that both Raynor and the Tal'Darim show up exactly at the same time at every artifact mission though.

Then again, one could have it that in their very first meeting, the Tal'Darim are indeed holding onto the artifacts and wanting to have them picked up by Moebius Terrans under Narud. They mistake Raynor's band as being part of the Moebius group only to have them attacked by Tychus (sparking conflict in future meet-ups) because he first stole that info, ran off and wanted someone to help extort Moebius for a mint ("selling") rather than just merely going on a fetch quest for them. Would make for yet another source of animosity between Raynor and Tychus, too.

[ragnarok]

I mean that he just didn't want to use them for a Char invasion, when there are other things they'll be needed for later.

As for Narud, a few rewrites to missions can establish the Tal'darim are on worlds looking for the artifacts too, or they found one and are holding it for retrieval.

You'd have to redefine the Tal'darim then. They're supposed to be a purely warrior race, who don't really care about the artifacts in the first place. That said, I'm curious if any of the Tal'darim ever bothered to question Narud about the pieces, instead of just the whole "because the guy said so."

[DarthYam]

Make the Tal'darim throughout the trilogy the same faction, and replace the Tal'darim Executor with Ma'lash who escapes at the end of the artifact missions. This gives the Tal'darim a more consistent racial identity through the campaign and provides an overarcing Protoss villain, instead of two very undeveloped separate villains. Accordingly, their dialogue would be rewritten to be consistent with their LotV depiction. Hand in hand with this, Tychus doesn't directly work for Moebius. He was given some data from Arcturus about some rare artifacts the Dominion is looking for, and relays that to Raynor as info he stole, and encourages him to steal the artifacts to sell to the Dominion and Moebius, or perhaps to use as bargaining chips of some sort.

In this revised story, Narud was having the Tal'darim gather the artifacts for him directly, but then Arcturus sent Tychus to infiltrate Raynor with some Moebius data to sway Raynor to his side, and Raynor got to the artifacts first. Narud thus gets them by going through Moebius and Valerian. He still calls Raynor in for help against Kerrigan, though, and at that point decides "okay, fine, I'll get the artifacts another way. The Raiders may prove useful anyway" and then they do by doing the Char stuff so Narud doesn't need to waste the Tal'darim on an invasion. This gives the Terrans a more fitting role, meddling in things they don't understand, getting involved in Narud's power plays with the Protoss and Zerg without even meaning to or realizing it, and being manipulated by higher powers.

Arcturus does not have the Keystone in HotS. Valerian and the Raiders got it back, and it plays no role in HotS (it might as well not have, anyway). The "transfer of energy and consciousness and information" nonsense is removed. Instead, the Keystone simply acts as a conduit for Void energy, absorbing and releasing it as needed. Considering it's heavily implied the Zerg use Void energies already, this means it can still de-infest Kerrigan and then do all the things it needs to in LotV. Instead of it randomly containing coordinates encoded on it, Karax discovers that the Keystone's connection to the Void can be traced to the source point, and he does this to find Ulnar.

Rewrite Raynor as having given up hope on rebelling against the Dominion, and now he's just trying to keep his ship together and help out folks where he can. The discovery of the adjutant and the meeting with Valerian will re-invigorate his motivation for both.

Plans were for the Bucephalus to be a story mode space, so make it one. The last three Char missions see you there instead of the Hyperion, able to talk to Warfield, Valerian, and Narud. This gives all three of them more depth and screentime. Valerian can mention Jake Ramsay in dialogue to tie back into the DT Saga. Maybe Jake told Valerian some stuff about the artifacts.

Merge Moebius and Project Shadowblade. The Moebius Foundation was formed out of ex-Shadowblade researchers, and Moebius is continuing their research on terrazine and Protoss relics. Tosh has heard of Moebius and provides some backstory on them and Shadowblade. This can serve to hint at more Amon and Tal'darim stuff, gives Tosh and Nova a connection to the main story so they have a reason to be here, and hints that Moebius is not a trustworthy organization. Hanson's research on a cure for Zerg infestation will include Raynor making reference to Stukov, and how he doesn't know what happened to him, Stukov took off with his old Confederate remnant buddies after escaping Braxis. This will foreshadow Stukov's return better and also tie back to the Deceptions map by inferring the Confederates there were Narud/Duran's men (something I already presumed anyway).

No amnesiac Kerrigan. Remove that plot point entirely. She fully remembers what she did and who she was. Also remove the "Amon's influence" stuff. Make it a thematic point that she was her own person as the Queen of Blades, that was all her, and she liked it. She slips back into that mindset with Raynor's death and nothing to live for but vengeance, but when she finds out he's alive she tries to become something better. Bring back scrapped plans for Kerrigan to mutate over the course of the campaign before she becomes fully re-infested. Make it a thematic element that she's becoming more Zerg again by choice because she wants the power back.

Remove the "Overmind's vision" stuff. Zeratul can still go chat with Ouros/Tassadar, and Tassadar tells him the Overmind was seeking the Artifacts, which embody great power and must not fall into Zerg hands. This accomplishes the same end (Zeratul tells Raynor to get the Artifacts) without any retcons to existing lore. Also, instead of "possessed" Protoss under the control of the Hybrid, it's the Tal'darim in Zeratul's flashback. Simple and done, conclusively establishes the Tal'darim as antagonists.

Narud is explicitly stated to by Duran to Stukov. They originally intended to so and there's no good reason why they shouldn't have.

Lots of great ideas there but I think that a compromise with Kerrigan is better. I suggested that things like the zerg mutagen and Amon's taint simply amplified a darkness that was already there and suppressed things like empathy and compassion. In short, she's painfully aware that the darkness of her own soul was a major part of the queen of blades. When Heart of the swarm was first announced I was expecting a character journey with Kerrigan where she tries to come to terms with what she's done and face the darkness in her soul. That's also why I thought killing Lassara was a waste; in addition to setting a plot that was never delivered it would have forced Kerrigan to face her past, and add fuel to the internal conflict she's going through. As Raynor was facing his doubts about being hopeful again, Kerrigan is facing her past and trying to build a future.

One of the things Heart of the swarm did right is that in the final missions Kerrigan's achieved balance. She's willing to bust heads but she actually cares about human life.

As for Duran....

I was thinking that During Skygeirr Narud shows up, and temporarily morphs into Duran's form, shocking both Kerrigan and Stukov.

Duran: "One of many names I have worn over the millennia" gives speech about how all of this was to bring back his master. He also gloats over how he played Kerrigan in Brood War, even reminds her of things like Jim's oath to kill her. Really twisting the knife in. Eyes begin to glow. "The Zerg Swarm and Protoss have fulfilled their purpose. They are but a broken tool fit only for the scrap heap. And you shall join them." Morphs into his hideous true form. "Behold my true form." He tells them they will die, and he and Kerrigan begin facing off.


TvTropes made a point about Amon: if he uplifted the protoss the whole "directive to destroy them" was basically spite. They defied HIM, their uplifter.

Finally: I never really saw the contradiction with the Overmind creating Kerrigan. Amon ordered him to do whatever it took to destroy the protoss, and Kerrigan's creation sorta filled that goal. It just happened that at the same time if....say....something were to happen to the overmind Kerrigan could take over. It's essentially a loophole in the conditioning, that thanks to several things lining up JUST RIGHT the overmind was able to exploit. Basically he was playing Xanatos speed chess the moment he got the chance.

Also, given that Kerrigan was allegedly created to deal with the protoss, that by leaving her to fight the templar the overmind lost his weapon to fight the khalai.....again having an ulterior motive made perfect sense.


One more thing I would say.....Mengsk stops really being the threat by the halfway point of Heart. Amon and his men step in and the Heart of the Swarm ends in a "darkest hour" moment. Korhal has been overwhelmed by Amon's dark army, humans, the zerg under Kerrigan's control and the protoss are on the run. It's basically a knife's edge with the stage set for the final battle

[ragnarok]

TvTropes made a point about Amon: if he uplifted the protoss the whole "directive to destroy them" was basically spite. They defied HIM, their uplifter.


It's not to DESTROY them, DarthYam. Recall what Duran said in the Into the Void mission: the purpose of the swarm was to assimilate the Protoss and create the hybrid. He wanted the Firstborn ASSIMILATED, not just outright destroyed.


Finally: I never really saw the contradiction with the Overmind creating Kerrigan. Amon ordered him to do whatever it took to destroy the protoss, and Kerrigan's creation sorta filled that goal. It just happened that at the same time if....say....something were to happen to the overmind Kerrigan could take over. It's essentially a loophole in the conditioning, that thanks to several things lining up JUST RIGHT the overmind was able to exploit. Basically he was playing Xanatos speed chess the moment he got the chance.

That's kind of how I saw it too. The Overmind's actions was because her psionic power would help the swarm achieve their goals better. It's possible the Overmind DID consider the possibility what could happen if he was killed, but that's something probably on the backburner.


One more thing I would say.....Mengsk stops really being the threat by the halfway point of Heart. Amon and his men step in and the Heart of the Swarm ends in a "darkest hour" moment. Korhal has been overwhelmed by Amon's dark army, humans, the zerg under Kerrigan's control and the protoss are on the run. It's basically a knife's edge with the stage set for the final battle

No, a knife's edge should have had HotS end the following way:

As the swarm leaves Korhal, we zoom into another planet (don't know what it is). Amon's voice is heard: "Arise, my legions...." At this point, countless hybrids begin waking up and departing the planet. As they enter the Koprulu Sector, the screen fades to black and the credits roll, heralding the beginning of LotV.

[DarthYam]

Maybe so. I think that Kerrigan's redemption could have worked. The idea of a mortal becoming a villain, loosing their power and going on a journey of self discovery is interesting. You could get SOOOOOOO much out of it.

Kerrigan would be filled with guilt for her actions, but she'd want Mengsk to pay for what he did to her. She'd be trying to move on, maybe willing to try to make herself stronger, but at the same time scared that the evil of the queen of blades was the darkness in her own soul. Her interactions with other characters could be interesting. Jim would be deeply conflicted. Zeratul may be willing to bite it and work with her, but the relation would be strained (with Zeratul showing barely restrained loathing, and Kerrigan feeling intense guilt whenever she sees Zeratul due to him being a reminder of her sins.) A truly gifted writer could have made an absolutely stunning journey of discovery and redemption that would have easily overwhelmed brood war. What we got....was a mixed bag. Sometimes the beats hit other times they didn't

Amon being the uplifter of the protoss also made sense. The manual said the xel'naga uplifted them and amon IS a xel'naga. he's just of a different faction.

[ragnarok]

Maybe so. I think that Kerrigan's redemption could have worked. The idea of a mortal becoming a villain, loosing their power and going on a journey of self discovery is interesting. You could get SOOOOOOO much out of it.

Kerrigan would be filled with guilt for her actions, but she'd want Mengsk to pay for what he did to her. She'd be trying to move on, maybe willing to try to make herself stronger, but at the same time scared that the evil of the queen of blades was the darkness in her own soul. Her interactions with other characters could be interesting. Jim would be deeply conflicted. Zeratul may be willing to bite it and work with her, but the relation would be strained (with Zeratul showing barely restrained loathing, and Kerrigan feeling intense guilt whenever she sees Zeratul due to him being a reminder of her sins.) A truly gifted writer could have made an absolutely stunning journey of discovery and redemption that would have easily overwhelmed brood war. What we got....was a mixed bag. Sometimes the beats hit other times they didn't

Amon being the uplifter of the protoss also made sense. The manual said the xel'naga uplifted them and amon IS a xel'naga. he's just of a different faction.

Yes and that's why people were disappointed with HotS. The beginning at the Umojan facility was fine given her guilt for it all, but after that she just went back to the Zerg mentality of "might makes right." This was the exact opposite of everything many had hoped for. In that sense, it would have been better if Raynor had NOT gone down to help her during the final assault on the Korhal Palace. After all, meeting up with Raynor on the Moros was the only time where Kerrigan finally tried to distance herself from the crimes committed, and by then the damage had been done. In that regard, if Raynor hadn't helped her on the Korhal Palace (and this of course is assuming Mengsk never had the artifact), perhaps after the Korhal invasion ended, Kerrigan would have been forced to see it's time she actually put on the brakes and tried using rationale instead of just going by her instincts.

[KaiserStratosTygo]

Maybe so. I think that Kerrigan's redemption could have worked. The idea of a mortal becoming a villain, loosing their power and going on a journey of self discovery is interesting. You could get SOOOOOOO much out of it.

Kerrigan would be filled with guilt for her actions, but she'd want Mengsk to pay for what he did to her. She'd be trying to move on, maybe willing to try to make herself stronger, but at the same time scared that the evil of the queen of blades was the darkness in her own soul. Her interactions with other characters could be interesting. Jim would be deeply conflicted. Zeratul may be willing to bite it and work with her, but the relation would be strained (with Zeratul showing barely restrained loathing, and Kerrigan feeling intense guilt whenever she sees Zeratul due to him being a reminder of her sins.) A truly gifted writer could have made an absolutely stunning journey of discovery and redemption that would have easily overwhelmed brood war. What we got....was a mixed bag. Sometimes the beats hit other times they didn't

Amon being the uplifter of the protoss also made sense. The manual said the xel'naga uplifted them and amon IS a xel'naga. he's just of a different faction.

It implies that amon did it himself, which is not implied in the manual, nor does it really work in a sci fi sense, that's class A fantasy nonsense right there.

the only way Kerrigan's redemption would've worked if she made it her mission to help the Terrans and Protoss, did away with the Swarm, and WAS NOT rewarded for any of it.

[ragnarok]

It implies that amon did it himself, which is not implied in the manual, nor does it really work in a sci fi sense, that's class A fantasy nonsense right there.

the only way Kerrigan's redemption would've worked if she made it her mission to help the Terrans and Protoss, did away with the Swarm, and WAS NOT rewarded for any of it.

It's not because the original developers merely wanted the Xel'Naga to have underestimated their own creation, which was also fine.

That was the problem with redemption because she saw them too stupid to do anything except play into Amon's hands.

[DarthYam]

It's not because the original developers merely wanted the Xel'Naga to have underestimated their own creation, which was also fine.

That was the problem with redemption because she saw them too stupid to do anything except play into Amon's hands.

the manual said the xel'naga uplifted the protoss. Amon and his crew were Xel'naga. Technically it's not a retcon; it's just that another FACTION did the uplifting.

Kerrigan's redemption could have been cool.

The warrior falling to darkness regaining their humanity and trying to redeem themselves is a damn good arc, and there could have been a lot of emotional journeys in there. Kerrigan coming to terms with her past and the crimes she committed, while facing the future and role in it while at the same time just wanting to have a normal life and leave all the violence behind.

Such an arc could have been compelling

[DarthYam]

It's not because the original developers merely wanted the Xel'Naga to have underestimated their own creation, which was also fine.

That was the problem with redemption because she saw them too stupid to do anything except play into Amon's hands.

the manual said the xel'naga uplifted the protoss. Amon and his crew were Xel'naga. Technically it's not a retcon; it's just that another FACTION did the uplifting.

Kerrigan's redemption could have been cool.

The warrior falling to darkness regaining their humanity and trying to redeem themselves is a damn good arc, and there could have been a lot of emotional journeys in there. Kerrigan coming to terms with her past and the crimes she committed, while facing the future and role in it while at the same time just wanting to have a normal life and leave all the violence behind.

Such an arc could have been compelling

[Gradius]

the manual said the xel'naga uplifted the protoss. Amon and his crew were Xel'naga. Technically it's not a retcon; it's just that another FACTION did the uplifting.

Kerrigan's redemption could have been cool.

The warrior falling to darkness regaining their humanity and trying to redeem themselves is a damn good arc, and there could have been a lot of emotional journeys in there. Kerrigan coming to terms with her past and the crimes she committed, while facing the future and role in it while at the same time just wanting to have a normal life and leave all the violence behind.

Such an arc could have been compelling
It's a retcon. It changes the audiences' interpretation of events. Besides, the manual says that the "greater whole" that got wiped out (sc2 good xelnaga) were the same that uplifted the Protoss and Zerg. Amon didn't kill himself.

[Turalyon]

One of the things Heart of the swarm did right is that in the final missions Kerrigan's achieved balance. She's willing to bust heads but she actually cares about human life.

This would've been done even better had she not gone back or involved herself with the Zerg at all. Course, we couldn't have that because it had to be a Zerg expansion. Really, the type of story they wanted to tell about Kerrigan being better in Sc2 is completely at crossed purpose/incompatible with what the Zerg are all about. As a result, both suffered.


Basically he was playing Xanatos speed chess the moment he got the chance.

Not possible. This would involve more free will/control over the situation that the Overmind should not have.

There was a huge discussion on this long ago on whether the Overmind was even playing Xanatos Roulette (something that relies even less control over the situation than Xanatos Speed Chess) and it was debunked because it's plan didn't actually involve accounting for any supposed failure and turning that into inevitable success. It's actually more of a Gambit Roulette because there was no real plan being acted on, all of it relied on chance and that things just coincidentally happened to align with the Overmind's true goal of freeing the Zerg.

Heck, even you said the following in this thread (http://sclegacy.com/forums/showthread.php?11165-The-Great-Overmind-Roulette):


actually it got a lot wrong. The overmind knew that it was merely "a chance." there was no gaurentee of it working. The cerebrates knew jack shit of the plan and the only reason the message got through was thanks to tassadar. the very lost thought was fear. He was probably registering his vision but never got to finish it due to tassadar's kamikaze attack. If Zeratul hadn't been investigating Duran he would never have known. did the overmind even know of the artifacts? They were only a couple of millenia old.

Why the change?

[ragnarok]

It's a retcon. It changes the audiences' interpretation of events. Besides, the manual says that the "greater whole" that got wiped out (sc2 good xelnaga) were the same that uplifted the Protoss and Zerg. Amon didn't kill himself.

Not exactly, Gradius. More like Blizzard kept it vague in 1998, and the SC2 team abused this vagueness for it to mean something entirely different from what we all thought.

Basically, it's the simple concept of "Because we never SPECFICALLY SPELT IT OUT, it didn't really mean what you THOUGHT it meant."

[ragnarok]

Kerrigan's redemption could have been cool.

The warrior falling to darkness regaining their humanity and trying to redeem themselves is a damn good arc, and there could have been a lot of emotional journeys in there. Kerrigan coming to terms with her past and the crimes she committed, while facing the future and role in it while at the same time just wanting to have a normal life and leave all the violence behind.

Such an arc could have been compelling

Yes I understand that point, but her actions in HotS only implied to a lot of players that in the end, she saw humanity was no different than Mengsk. Raynor aside, Kerrigan felt that was all humanity had to offer. THIS was why it would have been important had Raynor not gone to help her in the Korhal Palace assault.

In some ways we already saw that back at the beginning of the Korhal invasion, where Kerrigan gave in to Valerian's request. Given what happened on the Moros, it was only THEN that Kerrigan finally tried to see that perhaps she had been wrong in her view of humanity.

[DarthYam]

I liked the version of the final battle of the el naga we got in Legacy. That Amon was interrupted

it adds meaning to his "as i was your beginning so shall I be your end." Line. He made them. It also explains why he hates them. They defied HIM, the one who uplifted them. Their god.

Amon had potential as a lucifer type figure. The magazine polygon says that originally he got godhood, realized it was never what he wanted and felt cheated when he couldn't take it back. You can make it that he didn't really want the responsibilities and his hatred of the mortals is jealousy that they can live simple lives. It's somewhat understandable but makes him contemptible.

It also draws parallels with BW Kerrigan and Artanis. Like BW Kerrigan, Amon tried to escape his perceived injustice by smashing the board; unlike her he stays evil. Unlike Artanis, Amon was unwilling to take responsibility. Unlike Kerrigan, he wasn't willing to embrace the responsibilities (Kerrigan accepts Ouros's offer because she feels that creating life rather than destroying is and taking the god's responsibilities would help balance the scales.) Kerrigan and Artanis stepped up to the plate and embraced their responsibilities despite the burden; Amon did not

[ragnarok]

I liked the version of the final battle of the el naga we got in Legacy. That Amon was interrupted

it adds meaning to his "as i was your beginning so shall I be your end." Line. He made them. It also explains why he hates them. They defied HIM, the one who uplifted them. Their god.


Yes, but as Rohana pointed out in the game, ultimately the Protoss grew beyond Amon's control. That was one of Amon's flaws: he completely forgot that he was dealing with living beings, not mindless drones.

This is a common concept we see in sci-fi: just because you created them does NOT mean they will do your every bidding regardless of the circumstances.

[DarthYam]

Yes, but as Rohana pointed out in the game, ultimately the Protoss grew beyond Amon's control. That was one of Amon's flaws: he completely forgot that he was dealing with living beings, not mindless drones.

This is a common concept we see in sci-fi: just because you created them does NOT mean they will do your every bidding regardless of the circumstances.

I think it's a pretty interesting idea; technically it WAS xel'naga who uplifted the protoss and it gives a reason for Amon. I think that the idea of the Good Xel'naga discovering what Amon was up to, trying to stop him and then Amon unleashing the zerg as a final "screw you" on both his own followers and the good xel'naga is a pretty interesting idea.

Amon as a lucifer figure is a cool idea

Heart of the swarm needs work but I think it had good ideas at it's core. The only time Kerrigan is REALLY nasty as at Kaldir and even then she feels guilty

[ragnarok]

I think it's a pretty interesting idea; technically it WAS xel'naga who uplifted the protoss and it gives a reason for Amon. I think that the idea of the Good Xel'naga discovering what Amon was up to, trying to stop him and then Amon unleashing the zerg as a final "screw you" on both his own followers and the good xel'naga is a pretty interesting idea.

Amon as a lucifer figure is a cool idea

Heart of the swarm needs work but I think it had good ideas at it's core. The only time Kerrigan is REALLY nasty as at Kaldir and even then she feels guilty

I wouldn't entirely say that, DarthYam. To me, Kerrigan's actions in HotS was a lot like the western allies' mentality towards Germany in WWII, even before the concentration and death camps were discovered. If you read the history books, you'll notice that their mentality was "It mind, body, heart and spirit, every German is a Hitler."

It's no different than how Kerrigan saw the Dominion, both military and civilian. To her, they're just like Mengsk. That's exactly the problem in that she simply doesn't have a solid grasp on humanity.

And as for Kaldir, I think even then, she had some sort of mentality of because the Protoss were in her way, that qualifies as a legit excuse to use force on them.

[DarthYam]

I wouldn't entirely say that, DarthYam. To me, Kerrigan's actions in HotS was a lot like the western allies' mentality towards Germany in WWII, even before the concentration and death camps were discovered. If you read the history books, you'll notice that their mentality was "It mind, body, heart and spirit, every German is a Hitler."

It's no different than how Kerrigan saw the Dominion, both military and civilian. To her, they're just like Mengsk. That's exactly the problem in that she simply doesn't have a solid grasp on humanity.

And as for Kaldir, I think even then, she had some sort of mentality of because the Protoss were in her way, that qualifies as a legit excuse to use force on them.

I sort of see where you're coming from. She's so filled with anger and sorrow from her loss that she sees anyone in the way of her vengeance as an obstacle. Even then she felt somewhat bad about Lassara. A far cry from the Queen of Blades.

Heart had problems; Kerrigan being "bad" and "selfish as she always was" was kind of an exaggeration. Even at her worst she was less malevolent than the queen of blades

[ragnarok]

I sort of see where you're coming from. She's so filled with anger and sorrow from her loss that she sees anyone in the way of her vengeance as an obstacle. Even then she felt somewhat bad about Lassara. A far cry from the Queen of Blades.

Heart had problems; Kerrigan being "bad" and "selfish as she always was" was kind of an exaggeration. Even at her worst she was less malevolent than the queen of blades

Less malevolent compared to the QoB is only a POV, DarthYam. I understand what you're getting at, but the fact still remains the way she views herself isn't the same as how others view her. This is one of the reasons the critics have pointed out many times over on the battlenet forums, in that if nothing else, from SC1 to WoL she could at least say the Zerg infestation played its role in the influence and everything, whereas in HotS she did it of her own free will. In that regard, even if less people died (which is probably the case), it doesn't make her any better.

Even by the time of the Korhal invasion, it was only due to Raynor's reaction to her on the Moros that caused her to give in to Valerian's request. For example, if Raynor had let it go during their reunion on the Moros, I'm willing to bet that when discussing the Korhal invasion with Valerian, she would have simply said "It's not my problem the Dominion people are too stupid to do anything except blindly follow your father. If they get caught in the crossfire, I can't be blamed for that."

This once again goes to the history books if you read about the allied occupation of Germany from 1945 to 1949. With regards to the suffering and misery the German people went through, the allies hardly gave a damn until almost 1948, and even then the change was slow. Most of the times when seeing such misery, they just kept using the same catchphrase over and over:

"You should have thought about that before you supported a genocidal, warmongering criminal. For all this, you all have one man to thank."

Which, as I'm sure you can see, deeply angered the German people because that was the allies saying that even with the whole firebombing of their cities, that wasn't really their fault, but rather the German people's fault because they were too stupid to get rid of Hitler.

In parallel to HotS, it's basically the same thing: Kerrigan's mentality might not have been intentionally wanting the Dominion people to all be exterminated, but she felt that because they were too stupid to topple Mengsk, it's not her problem what happens to them anymore. They should have thought about this years ago.

See where this is going?

[Gradius]

Heck, even you said the following in this thread (http://sclegacy.com/forums/showthread.php?11165-The-Great-Overmind-Roulette):



Why the change?
Because SC2 is literary excellence incarnate, and how dare you ruin people's enjoyment of it with your logic? :P



Heart had problems; Kerrigan being "bad" and "selfish as she always was" was kind of an exaggeration. Even at her worst she was less malevolent than the queen of blades
That's like saying Joseph Stalin isn't actually such a bad guy because he still killed less people than Mao Zedong.

[ragnarok]

Because SC2 is literary excellence incarnate, and how dare you ruin people's enjoyment of it with your logic? :P


One of these days you really have to start seeing some of your claims are hypocritical, Gradius. This is why more times than not, I still categorize you as among the critics who feel the only "success" Blizzard made to SC2's story was they failed EVERYTHING, and only people who deserve to be locked in the insane asylum can see anything positive about the story.

[TheEconomist]

I still categorize you as among the critics who feel the only "success" Blizzard made to SC2's story was they failed EVERYTHING, and only people who deserve to be locked in the insane asylum can see anything positive about the story.

As soon as I read "one of these days ..." I knew this part was coming. Ragnarok has got to be the most consistently predictable person that I have ever encountered.

[ragnarok]

As soon as I read "one of these days ..." I knew this part was coming. Ragnarok has got to be the most consistently predictable person that I have ever encountered.

Because this is the same thing I hear again and again on the battlenet forums. At least the teamliquid ones have some other voices who actually saw there was more to the story that just a total failure.

[Turalyon]

Because SC2 is literary excellence incarnate, and how dare you ruin people's enjoyment of it with your logic? :P

Lol. Being serious for a moment though, it was a half-genuine, half-rhetorical question. Knowing that it was Yam, I had already figured the answer to be somewhere in the vein of "new stuff trumps old/ what I say now overrides what I said then, so there's no inconsistency/incoherency" since he's used this "logic" before, but on the other hand, I was hoping for a different answer, too. :o


That's like saying Joseph Stalin isn't actually such a bad guy because he still killed less people than Mao Zedong.

Heh, Stalin's a veritable paragon of virtue who deserves to be forgiven as well because the allegory of HotS says so. Apologists unite!!


One of these days you really have to start seeing some of your claims are hypocritical, Gradius. This is why more times than not, I still categorize you as among the critics who feel the only "success" Blizzard made to SC2's story was they failed EVERYTHING, and only people who deserve to be locked in the insane asylum can see anything positive about the story.

Joke =======>

Rag's head.

[ragnarok]

Joke =======>

Rag's head.

Oh it wasn't a joke. Gradius has said this so many times over on the battlenet forums, with so much criticism, the rest is self explanatory

[DarthYam]

Because SC2 is literary excellence incarnate, and how dare you ruin people's enjoyment of it with your logic? :P


That's like saying Joseph Stalin isn't actually such a bad guy because he still killed less people than Mao Zedong.

Not even remotely comparable. Kerrigan actually feels remorse in heart of the swarm, has a more believable motivation for going on the war path (she's lost any chance at normalcy to the same asshole who wrecked her life last time, she feels vengeance is literally all she has.) She holds back even though she thinks she's lost any chance of Raynor forgiving her. Even when she does kick the dog she feels bad about it.


Having been on battlenet pretty much every post is "SC2 SUCKS AND ONLY AN IDIOT LIKES IT BW IS TE GREATEST". Yeah, fuck that.

[ragnarok]

Having been on battlenet pretty much every post is "SC2 SUCKS AND ONLY AN IDIOT LIKES IT BW IS TE GREATEST". Yeah, fuck that.

True, but some of what they said DO have grounds, you know. It's why I grew more critical of the story as time passed after speaking to them.


Not even remotely comparable. Kerrigan actually feels remorse in heart of the swarm, has a more believable motivation for going on the war path (she's lost any chance at normalcy to the same asshole who wrecked her life last time, she feels vengeance is literally all she has.) She holds back even though she thinks she's lost any chance of Raynor forgiving her. Even when she does kick the dog she feels bad about it.

Yes there's remorse, but it's far too little.

All you have to do is look at the industrial worlds she ordered destroyed. If you had played Char and then Kaldir, or Kaldir and then Char, the convo with Izsha after Kerrigan told her that Zeratul had left had specifically given Izsha the mentality that anything non-Zerg is considered the enemy.

Likely this is something passed on the Broodmothers, since Kerrigan based them off herself during the infestation years. Thus since she did NOT say to avoid civilian centers, the broodmothers would have interpreted this order as to kill as many people on the planet as possible. If nothing else, there's the gross negligence factor.

[Gradius]

I don't know what you guys are talking about, but neither teamliquid nor this site seems to be any more generous to SC2's story than battle.net. It seems that generally most people who examine the story with any shred of a critical eye will come to the similar conclusion that SC1's plot was superior. Obviously not everyone - people are entitled to enjoy whatever crap movies/books/shows they want, which they do, so it doesn't really mean anything that there are "voices" who disagree. Who cares? Are we supposed to take aliens or ghosts seriously because a few people believe they've seen them?


Not even remotely comparable. Kerrigan actually feels remorse in heart of the swarm, has a more believable motivation for going on the war path (she's lost any chance at normalcy to the same asshole who wrecked her life last time, she feels vengeance is literally all she has.) She holds back even though she thinks she's lost any chance of Raynor forgiving her. Even when she does kick the dog she feels bad about it.
The fact that she's supposed to be human again and is supposed to be able to be reasoned with and show empathy makes it even worse. The Queen of Blades' mind was twisted against her will by an amoral alien, so she killed a ton of people. HoTS Kerrigan does not have that excuse and decided to unleash zerg on fellow humans and destroy entire planets just to get revenge on one guy. That's as petty as it gets. If vengeance is all you have left, you try assassination before involving other people in your vendetta.

This is where somebody goes off on a character analysis of Kerrigan and how she was under a lot of stress and what she did makes sense (it doesn't), except that no characters in the game (except her victims) seem to acknowledge that she's a villain and mass murderer, and therefore the whole story seems unrealistic. Ouros allowing someone like Kerrigan to ascend to godhood is a dick move. And then Artanis just bows down to worship her - it should be insulting to anyone with a moral compass, as Artanis was generally a highly tolerant and compassionate person through all of LoTV.

[ragnarok]

Having been on battlenet pretty much every post is "SC2 SUCKS AND ONLY AN IDIOT LIKES IT BW IS TE GREATEST". Yeah, fuck that.

Oh and by the way DarthYam, I almost forgot to mention: believe me, on there, voicing anything to show off your frustration merely gets you the response of "That's because you can't take our epicness." It just shows the ego problem for some of those people.

[ragnarok]

I don't know what you guys are talking about, but neither teamliquid nor this site seems to be any more generous to SC2's story than battle.net. It seems that generally most people who examine the story with any shred of a critical eye will come to the similar conclusion that SC1's plot was superior. Obviously not everyone - people are entitled to enjoy whatever crap movies/books/shows they want, which they do, so it doesn't really mean anything that there are "voices" who disagree. Who cares? Are we supposed to take aliens or ghosts seriously because a few people believe they've seen them?


Actually, there HAVE been more people on the teamliquid forums that have said there's still good in the SC2 story, Gradius. I checked there myself.


This is where somebody goes off on a character analysis of Kerrigan and how she was under a lot of stress and what she did makes sense, except that no characters in the game (except her victims) seem to acknowledge that she's a villain and mass murderer, and therefore the whole story seems unrealistic. Ouros allowing someone like Kerrigan to ascend to godhood is a dick move.

No it wouldn't, if she had to pay the price for it, like losing ALL her psionic powers. The fact that she DID acknowledge she had to pay for her crimes proves that however late in the day, she did learn.

[Gradius]

Actually, there HAVE been more people on the teamliquid forums that have said there's still good in the SC2 story, Gradius. I checked there myself.
Where?

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2-hots/140246-poll-sc1-vs-sc2-best-plot

On the first page, there's about 12 people who say SC1 is superior, and about 2 who like SC2 more.

It's interesting looking back though. My favorite post:


While the story in WoL is indeed a bit "bad", I'm pretty sure they're just laying down the grounds for some epicness for the two expansions.
Hahahaha.

I've always lambasted the "wait until the expansions come out" argument, as if someone important at Blizzard is going to get fired and the quality will magically increase for no reason. :P

The main narrative of LoTV was a clear improvement over the last two I will admit; it just didn't save Metzen from pushing that godawful epilogue.

[ragnarok]

Where?

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2-hots/140246-poll-sc1-vs-sc2-best-plot

On the first page, there's about 12 people who say SC1 is superior, and about 2 who like SC2 more.

It's interesting looking back though. My favorite post:


Hahahaha.

I've always lambasted the "wait until the expansions come out" argument, as if someone important at Blizzard is going to get fired and the quality will magically increase for no reason. Stupid. :P

Correct, but that's more compared to the battlenet forums, considering the fact that it's the same group of people again and again who've said the same damn thing. And anything you say in response gets shot down.

That's the problem for such people: too much pride and ego and not realizing they're not always right. Granted that's a human trait, but it's certainly something worth looking at there.

It's something I see in you as well. I don't think I've EVER seen you admit fault on the battlenet forums there.

And as for the expansions, I still believe they did try to tie things up. Certainly it was bad in HotS, they should have at least tried to expand it beyond just simple revenge.

[ragnarok]

The main narrative of LoTV was a clear improvement over the last two I will admit; it just didn't save Metzen from pushing that godawful epilogue.

You just hated the epilogue because you didn't get to see Kerrigan thrown into the meat grinder. I admit Raynor was too forgiving on the matter, hence why I still hope to see strains in their relationship post LotV, if Blizzard ever gets around to it. If not, then I'll wait for fans to come up with ways for a better idea of redemption.

And certainly not YOUR version of just have them brutally butchered.

[Gradius]

And certainly not YOUR version of just have them brutally butchered.
Kerrigan brutally butchered millions of people in HoTS of her own free will. Why do you have sympathy for her and not her victims?

[Turalyon]

Oh it wasn't a joke.

Yeah, it was. It's called satire. Besides, how would you even know? You apparently don't even understand, let alone recognise, jokes anyway.


Kerrigan brutally butchered millions of people in HoTS of her own free will. Why do you have sympathy for her and not her victims?

Because being the designated protagonist supposedly qualifies her for automatic/unthinking audience sympathy? The victims are faceless, numerous and are the designated enemy. They're a statistic, so no sympathy is allowed for them. :p

[ragnarok]

Kerrigan brutally butchered millions of people in HoTS of her own free will. Why do you have sympathy for her and not her victims?

Because I have PERSONAL experience of what it's like to be exploited and abused. Remember Gradius, I live in an environment where both family (and now work, to a small degree) is rather power abusive.

That is why I understand what Blizzard was trying to do with her character, but they simply took it too far. This is why while I sympathetic to her, it's only up to a point. For the rest, as you pointed out during the times since we talked about this since HotS's release, I too grew more critical of her. A lack of understanding of humanity is fine, but not to the degree Blizzard made it in HotS.

[ragnarok]

Because being the designated protagonist supposedly qualifies her for automatic/unthinking audience sympathy? The victims are faceless, numerous and are the designated enemy. They're a statistic, so no sympathy is allowed for them. :p

No, that's not it. I could understand where Kerrigan was coming from because of her lack of understanding of humanity, as I was telling Gradius. The killings she did shouldn't be justified of course, and the fact that she's only seeded some worlds isn't sufficient to make up for it. On that note, you're right in that I'm critical of her. But I understood why she saw humanity as only just that, given her cruel upbringings.

As I told Gradius, I have personal experience when it comes to living in an environment where the people you're around understand little except in the field of brutality. Granted it's not the same scale as what Blizzard made in the SC universe, but the concepts are similar.

[Turalyon]

The question is not why you should empathise or sympathise with Kerrigan in HotS but why Kerrigan more than or over her victims.

There's no real answer beyond "the conceit of the story/writers just wants us to".

[ragnarok]

The question is not why you should empathise or sympathise with Kerrigan in HotS but why Kerrigan more than or over her victims.

There's no real answer beyond "the conceit of the story/writers just wants us to".

I didn't say I sympathsize her way more than her victims. In terms of civilians, obviously this isn't the case. But given that most of the Dominion military soldiers are just convicts taken from prisons anyway, there's not as much room.

Basically as I see it, it will take many years (assuming she even pays attention again) before Kerrigan will be able to understand humanity has more to offer than just the most cruel aspects of it. Once again, this is no different from the western allies' mentality towards Germans after the war. Only after the occupation, and many years that followed, did a lot of the war veterans finally admit a lot of what they were told about the German people was just propaganda BS.

[DarthYam]

I didn't say I sympathsize her way more than her victims. In terms of civilians, obviously this isn't the case. But given that most of the Dominion military soldiers are just convicts taken from prisons anyway, there's not as much room.

Basically as I see it, it will take many years (assuming she even pays attention again) before Kerrigan will be able to understand humanity has more to offer than just the most cruel aspects of it. Once again, this is no different from the western allies' mentality towards Germans after the war. Only after the occupation, and many years that followed, did a lot of the war veterans finally admit a lot of what they were told about the German people was just propaganda BS.


With Lassara KERRIGAN HERSELF feels guilt for what happens and acknowledges what she did was wrong. An important thing is that SHE DID CHANGE. During Korhal she had no reason to believe Jim would forgive her, and every reason to just plow through and fuck the consequences. That she didn't and instead showed mercy even when she had no reason to please Raynor shows that it DID stick. THAT'S what proves her better than the Queen; Kerrigan ultimately evolves and chooses to become a better person. They don't ignore the victims; Many of the worlds she strikes are military worlds as well, or are isolated.

Kerrigan could have been better handled; Kaldir should have been removed or toned the fuck down. But Kerrigan going after Mengsk made sense. Her attacking worlds like Jontur II made sense.

In fact let's go through the worlds Kerrigan has her broods attack; other than Kaldir none of them are quite as egregious as you claim.

Jontur II: Military Shipyard
Scoria: Mining camp wiped out
Nelyth: Protoss force wiped out. That's a research base with military soldiers on it. A kick the dog but hardly as bad as Kaldir
Cruxas III: Has a military presence, including nuke silos; the wiki has it as a military base.
Calas: The only people she kills are soldiers in a military outpost
Astrid III: Dominion garrison gets wiped out
Marek V: Wipe out Prometheus Company
Melhus IV: Protoss force wiped out
Cantar: Military forces and research lab destroyed
Mystaff IV: Hub of military production
Cavir: Already a zerg world
Sigma Centauri: Military base
Brokas Hur: Military Base
Ignus: Dominion soldiers

In war you strike military factories and bases and labs; sometimes civilians die. When the Sons of Korhal and Raynors Raiders attacked those labs they probably took out a few civilians.

Overall Kaldir was cruel but not enough to destroy sympathy. Kerrigan had a motivation (she has nothing left, she's a killer falling back on what she knows) and she genuinely has a heel turn. During the confrontation on the Moros when she says "What I....had to." It's clear she's trying to convince herself. A part of her has already realized what she's been doing was wrong.

That's why I'm willing to accept Kerrigan somewhat. She ultimately changes, and Legacy of the Void continues this. In Legacy she's pretty nice for the most part and actually wants to redeem herself.

[DarthYam]

WOL had problems; they should have had a linear storyline, Raynor should have made more mistakes.
HOTS had problems: Kerrigan should have been more conflicted, more time should have spent with Zeratul, and Amon's threat should have been somewhat more prominent.
LOTV had problems: The Khala thing was kinda mean, Kerrigan should have been present more in the zerg campaign; They could have found a way to have the Overmind and Tassadar merge. Amon however was well done for the most part

[Gradius]

I didn't say I sympathsize her way more than her victims. In terms of civilians, obviously this isn't the case. But given that most of the Dominion military soldiers are just convicts taken from prisons anyway, there's not as much room.
So stop defending this mass murderer at every turn.



Nelyth: Protoss force wiped out. That's a research base with military soldiers on it. A kick the dog but hardly as bad as Kaldir
They were defending a shrine of religious significance and minding their own business. Kerrigan killed them all as part of a weapons test experiment.


Cruxas III: Has a military presence, including nuke silos; the wiki has it as a military base.
It's also a giant city planet like Korhal that the swarm is actively invading. The mission takes place so that the rest of the invasion can proceed as per normal.


Mystaff IV: Hub of military production
Translation: giant planet chock full of industry and people.


Calas: The only people she kills are people in a military outpost
Fixed that for you. Peoples' lives aren't forfeit just because they volunteered to serve and defend their country in the military. Unleashing zerg on fellow human beings is bad enough, and it's not any more ok to unleash them on heroic people who volunteered to put their lives at risk for others.


In war you strike military factories and bases and labs; sometimes civilians die.
So don't start a massive interplanetary war if your beef is with one guy.


When the Sons of Korhal and Raynors Raiders attacked those labs they probably took out a few civilians.
They were trying to take down a corrupt government, not getting revenge against one guy. Kerrigan doesn't seem give two craps about the average civilian given her wholesale murder of them, which even Ragnarok (Kerrigan's biggest supporter) admitted in this very thread.



That's why I'm willing to accept Kerrigan somewhat. She ultimately changes, and Legacy of the Void continues this. In Legacy she's pretty nice for the most part and actually wants to redeem herself.
Nobody should accept Kerrigan after reading this: http://sclegacy.com/forums/showthread.php?15826-HoTS-Kerrigan-is-Evil-and-Morally-Bankrupt

In Legacy she already got what she wanted. Of course she's going to be "somewhat nice", though that didn't stop her from almost steamrolling Zeratul and not even bothering help save protoss lives in the prologue. Even Mengsk kind of stopped being a dick after he got everything he wanted in SC1 (total power). Explain why he's required to die for his previous crimes but Kerrigan gets a free pass.

Turalyon brings up a good point that the other villains in SC2 have just as much of a right to "redemption" as Kerrigan.

[ragnarok]

So stop defending this mass murderer at every turn.




That's only possible if you'd quit wishing her death all the time no matter what, which you won't.


Nobody should accept Kerrigan after reading this: http://sclegacy.com/forums/showthrea...rally-Bankrupt

In Legacy she already got what she wanted. Of course she's going to be "somewhat nice", though that didn't stop her from almost steamrolling Zeratul and not even bothering help save protoss lives in the prologue. Even Mengsk kind of stopped being a dick after he got everything he wanted in SC1 (total power). Explain why he's required to die for his previous crimes but Kerrigan gets a free pass.

Pffft, Gradius, this is EXACTLY the reason why I still feel you have the mentality of "only the lunatics could have the slightest good thing to say on the matter."

The testing of the Zerg breeds on the Dominion was fine given her view of them, she should have just tried to look harder at humanity before ordering the industrial worlds destroyed.

Now, for your Q of why Mengsk was required to die was that he never learned in the end. Kerrigan did learn, though many would say it's too late to escape retribution, hence the reason I hope to see a newer side of her, if Blizzard ever bothers

[ragnarok]

So don't start a massive interplanetary war if your beef is with one guy.


They were trying to take down a corrupt government, not getting revenge against one guy. Kerrigan doesn't seem give two craps about the average civilian given her wholesale murder of them, which even Ragnarok (Kerrigan's biggest supporter) admitted in this very thread.


You really need to see that it's never that easy to get rid of just one guy in this situation. If we follow that logic, we could say that the allies were stupid for killing so many Germans when their beef was with Hitler.

As for Raynor's actions, you have to remember that his rebellion too was against Mengsk. I don't think it was about the Dominion as a whole. This was something he was telling his crew right before the Char invasion was about to begin, after the bar fight against Tychus.

I keep telling you Gradius, this is merely something that'll take quite a while for Kerrigan to learn about humanity, in that there's more to it to offer than just its worst.

Now, as for the Dominion industrial worlds destroyed, Kerrigan did NOT order the swarm to kill everyone on it, though it's likely the Broodmothers interpreted the order as just that. It could mean some people escaped, and therefore that qualifies as a change in mentality. The problem is that to the outside world, assuming they could see the change, they would feel it's too small to make much of a difference.

And THAT is basically the main problem she has to deal with.

[ragnarok]

With Lassara KERRIGAN HERSELF feels guilt for what happens and acknowledges what she did was wrong. An important thing is that SHE DID CHANGE. During Korhal she had no reason to believe Jim would forgive her, and every reason to just plow through and fuck the consequences. That she didn't and instead showed mercy even when she had no reason to please Raynor shows that it DID stick. THAT'S what proves her better than the Queen; Kerrigan ultimately evolves and chooses to become a better person. They don't ignore the victims; Many of the worlds she strikes are military worlds as well, or are isolated.

Kerrigan could have been better handled; Kaldir should have been removed or toned the fuck down. But Kerrigan going after Mengsk made sense. Her attacking worlds like Jontur II made sense.

In fact let's go through the worlds Kerrigan has her broods attack; other than Kaldir none of them are quite as egregious as you claim.

Jontur II: Military Shipyard
Scoria: Mining camp wiped out
Nelyth: Protoss force wiped out. That's a research base with military soldiers on it. A kick the dog but hardly as bad as Kaldir
Cruxas III: Has a military presence, including nuke silos; the wiki has it as a military base.
Calas: The only people she kills are soldiers in a military outpost
Astrid III: Dominion garrison gets wiped out
Marek V: Wipe out Prometheus Company
Melhus IV: Protoss force wiped out
Cantar: Military forces and research lab destroyed
Mystaff IV: Hub of military production
Cavir: Already a zerg world
Sigma Centauri: Military base
Brokas Hur: Military Base
Ignus: Dominion soldiers

In war you strike military factories and bases and labs; sometimes civilians die. When the Sons of Korhal and Raynors Raiders attacked those labs they probably took out a few civilians.

Overall Kaldir was cruel but not enough to destroy sympathy. Kerrigan had a motivation (she has nothing left, she's a killer falling back on what she knows) and she genuinely has a heel turn. During the confrontation on the Moros when she says "What I....had to." It's clear she's trying to convince herself. A part of her has already realized what she's been doing was wrong.

That's why I'm willing to accept Kerrigan somewhat. She ultimately changes, and Legacy of the Void continues this. In Legacy she's pretty nice for the most part and actually wants to redeem herself.

Oh I know about that. This is something I said many times over on the battlenet forums. Overall it's no different than the allied bombing of Germany and Japan in WWII, though nowadays it too is considered at least SOMEWHAT of a war crime, but the allies didn't have to pay for it because they won the war.

However the tests against the Protoss certainly weren't smart. Sure, Kerrigan could argue that when the Protoss developed new weapons, they didn't test them against their own species. That's certainly true, but the problem here is on those worlds, the Protoss did nothing to wrong her, she just chose to test them there because it was convinient.

This once again goes back to my original point: in the end, Kerrigan still has plenty to learn. After seeing just the absolute WORST the universe has to offer her, it would take years before she can see otherwise. I would have expected this to happen even if the events of HotS never occurred.

In that respect, even Zagara learned more than her if we're to believe the SC Evolution book, and the plot written there so far....

[DarthYam]

So stop defending this mass murderer at every turn.


They were defending a shrine of religious significance and minding their own business. Kerrigan killed them all as part of a weapons test experiment.


It's also a giant city planet like Korhal that the swarm is actively invading. The mission takes place so that the rest of the invasion can proceed as per normal.


Translation: giant planet chock full of industry and people.


Fixed that for you. Peoples' lives aren't forfeit just because they volunteered to serve and defend their country in the military. Unleashing zerg on fellow human beings is bad enough, and it's not any more ok to unleash them on heroic people who volunteered to put their lives at risk for others.


So don't start a massive interplanetary war if your beef is with one guy.


They were trying to take down a corrupt government, not getting revenge against one guy. Kerrigan doesn't seem give two craps about the average civilian given her wholesale murder of them, which even Ragnarok (Kerrigan's biggest supporter) admitted in this very thread.


Nobody should accept Kerrigan after reading this: http://sclegacy.com/forums/showthread.php?15826-HoTS-Kerrigan-is-Evil-and-Morally-Bankrupt

In Legacy she already got what she wanted. Of course she's going to be "somewhat nice", though that didn't stop her from almost steamrolling Zeratul and not even bothering help save protoss lives in the prologue. Even Mengsk kind of stopped being a dick after he got everything he wanted in SC1 (total power). Explain why he's required to die for his previous crimes but Kerrigan gets a free pass.

Turalyon brings up a good point that the other villains in SC2 have just as much of a right to "redemption" as Kerrigan.

I have. It was short sighted. Kerrigan could have been somewhat nicer and I agree Kaldir was unnecessary (again the original version at blizzcon had her be nicer to the colonists) but I think that in others you overstate your case. The Zerg Swarm was basically shattered after Char and it wasn't until after Kerrigan went Primal that her brood mothers rejoined and her force was strong enough to take on mengsk.


Kerrigan willingly chose to stop being cruel even when it would have made her job harder. When challenged on her justifications she's forced to admit they're legitimate. Mengsk continued being an asshole for power; he's willing to murder his own son, sacrifices his men on the Moros. There's a difference between striking a military base and attacking a civilian city. If one were to bomb a city that had military factories that would be a legitimate act of war for strategic purposes. That's largely what she did. From a strategic standpoint Mystaff was a legitimate target.

Part of the point of Heart is that Kerrigan actually undergoes development. She starts out adrift, becomes bitter and vengeful and in the end becomes far nicer and willing to do the right thing. When she has her heel realization SHE STICKS WITH IT. When Raynor intervened she had no reason to believe he would. She chose to allow Korhal's evacuation entirely on her own because it was right. THAT'S why it's a big deal. Mengsk attacked Kerrigan when she was vulnerable and genuinely considering leaving the violence behind.

- - - Updated - - -

What matters is that she stopped for selfless reasons (She genuinely realized how selfish she had been)

[Turalyon]

I didn't say I sympathsize her way more than her victims.

Could have fooled me. You say you identify with her abuse and say nothing about sympathising with her victims. What else am I to think?

Either way, I don't care if you do or do not sympathise with Kerrigan, more or less, than her victims. The narrative and story bends itself to try and make the audience think Kerrigan is deserving of sympathy (as seen when everyone just casually pays lipservice to Kerrigan's deeds but does nothing to back up their words, that everything she does actually turns out to be all for the better because Mengsk was just arbitrarily made bad and everything he did was bad for Terrans, that there was no significant consequences on the Terrans or blame on Kerrigan for making them weak to Moebius' attacks in LotV and she gets rewarded for making a sacrifice thereby not making it a "sacrifice" in the first place) rather than letting us decide for ourselves.

[ragnarok]

Could have fooled me. You say you identify with her abuse and say nothing about sympathising with her victims. What else am I to think?


With regards to the Dominion civilians, sure I do. The military is another matter. Besides, while Raynor and Kerrigan don't see many things eye to eye, both of them DO have a low opinion on the Dominion people in that they seem to be too blind to do anything except follow Mengsk.

Naturally however Kerrigan merely took the next step, and that was too far. Hence the reason I'm saying she has hardly any understanding of humanity.

As for the whole letting us decide for ourselves part, tell me something: after BW (this is well before any work was done on SC2), did you believe in redemption AT ALL for her?

[ragnarok]

Part of the point of Heart is that Kerrigan actually undergoes development. She starts out adrift, becomes bitter and vengeful and in the end becomes far nicer and willing to do the right thing. When she has her heel realization SHE STICKS WITH IT. When Raynor intervened she had no reason to believe he would. She chose to allow Korhal's evacuation entirely on her own because it was right. THAT'S why it's a big deal. Mengsk attacked Kerrigan when she was vulnerable and genuinely considering leaving the violence behind.


She left it behind only by the time of the Korhal invasion. When she endorsed Valerian to take over, she was admitting that this would be the last bloodshed with the swarm. But prior getting Raynor off the Moros, her mentality remained indifferent to the Dominion people because she felt they were too stupid to do anything.

As for the whole Korhal evacuation, the MAJOR reason for that was due to Raynor's reaction to her on the Moros. Only THEN did Kerrigan realize in the end, she learned absolutely NOTHING. Only there did she finally admit (indirectly) that perhaps there was more to humanity than what she thought. And even then, Valerian had to ask her with the whole evacuation. Originally, all Kerrigan was willing to agree to was not to kill the WHOLE of Korhal's population in order to get to Mengsk.

[Turalyon]

With regards to the Dominion civilians, sure I do. The military is another matter.

Thanks for specifying but that just means you do sympathise with Kerrigan more than and over her victims (in this case, those in the military). Really, the military are just as much a victim of Kerrigan's heavy-handed aggression and malicious intentsince since they're only defending their own territory and general Terran interests.

That the military losses are somehow not deserving of sympathy and considered "ok" because they served some designated evil megalomaniac called Mengsk at that time (as the game wants us to think) is preposterous and intellectually insulting because it's still the very same military, which are now considered noble and tragic when they suffer losses during LotV, because they now serve the designated saint that is Valerian.


As for the whole letting us decide for ourselves part, tell me something: after BW (this is well before any work was done on SC2), did you believe in redemption AT ALL for her?

I didn't care for or against it. The thought of it never crossed my mind back then largely because there was no basis for me to even expect that it would be plausible or possible beyond wishful thinking... or worse, contrivance (which Sc2 utilised to its utmost).

[Gradius]

That the military losses are somehow not deserving of sympathy and considered "ok" because they served some designated evil megalomaniac called Mengsk at that time (as the game wants us to think) is preposterous and intellectually insulting because it's still the very same military, which are now considered noble and tragic when they suffer losses during LotV, because they now serve the designated saint that is Valerian.

Pretty funny we have to explain this right after Memorial Day. :P

[ragnarok]

Pretty funny we have to explain this right after Memorial Day. :P

Not ALL war veterans are honorable, Gradius. There are plenty who have a cynical mind for looting, rape, etc.

[ragnarok]

Thanks for specifying but that just means you do sympathise with Kerrigan more than and over her victims (in this case, those in the military). Really, the military are just as much a victim of Kerrigan's heavy-handed aggression and malicious intentsince since they're only defending their own territory and general Terran interests.

That the military losses are somehow not deserving of sympathy and considered "ok" because they served some designated evil megalomaniac called Mengsk at that time (as the game wants us to think) is preposterous and intellectually insulting because it's still the very same military, which are now considered noble and tragic when they suffer losses during LotV, because they now serve the designated saint that is Valerian.



These aren't NORMAL soldiers like what we see in the real world. These are mostly serial killers taken from prisons. Now yes, you can argue it's not like Kerrigan is any different, but you have to remember that in the very beginning, this wasn't what she wanted. Like virtually all the others, she was dragged kicking and screaming into the Confederate ghost program. If she was given a choice, perhaps she would choose different. The Dominion soldiers, by comparison, is something else.

Now, since you brought up the point of LotV for the Dominion losses, that's not how I felt, at least not entirely. To me, the losses we saw on Korhal was more like drilling the final point home: "Maybe NOW the Dominion soldiers will finally shut up with their pompous boasts of Dominion invincibility." That was the problem they suffered after those years of Mengsk's rule: they believed his propaganda BS. Some of the people I spoke to online had a similar impression with the whole "HA! Now at last you can see everything you had come to believe under Mengsk was total horseshit! Now you can see that you fought for nothing this whole time. Serves you right for your arrogant attitude all those years prior!"

If we're to go to this in HotS, it's still nevertheless a "terrible but necessary" loss. I despise the claims (especially on battlenet) that Kerrigan could have easily infiltrated Korhal all by herself and everything. The main point for the INITIAL phase of HotS was to emphasize that she still had limitations. This holds true even if you do Kaldir after Zerus, as Kerrigan was admitting that without the swarm, she's no match for the Golden Armada, even with the primal transformation.


I didn't care for or against it. The thought of it never crossed my mind back then largely because there was no basis for me to even expect that it would be plausible or possible beyond wishful thinking... or worse, contrivance (which Sc2 utilised to its utmost).

Many thought otherwise, though very few could tell just WHERE the hybrid plotline was going to go back then, which may lead to her redemption.

[Turalyon]

These aren't NORMAL soldiers like what we see in the real world. These are mostly serial killers taken from prisons.

Way to generalise, Rag. Let's just assume all military victims of Kerrigan deserve no sympathy because they're killers... but wait a minute, Kerrigan is also a killer!! A killer on a much larger scale than any of her victims and all on her own will (whilst those criminals who compose that said military were forced into that service without such choice)!! Oh, by that accord, she must be deserving of more sympathy because her sob story is somehow more special than all others. :rolleyes::p

Really Rag, you're digging a hole for yourself. You're clearly biased towards giving sympathy to Kerrigan more than/above her victims.


To me, the losses we saw on Korhal was more like drilling the final point home: "Maybe NOW the Dominion soldiers will finally shut up with their pompous boasts of Dominion invincibility." That was the problem they suffered after those years of Mengsk's rule: they believed his propaganda BS. Some of the people I spoke to online had a similar impression with the whole "HA! Now at last you can see everything you had come to believe under Mengsk was total horseshit! Now you can see that you fought for nothing this whole time. Serves you right for your arrogant attitude all those years prior!"

Don't know what cinematic you're talking about... but the cinematic Warrior is clearly trying to depict the sadness/sorrow/tragedy of all those Terran lives being lost to Amon and Moebius in LotV. The Dominion military in LotV are not evil anymore (if they ever were because Sc2 seems to be nailing it all on Mengsk Snr) because Valerian is their leader. They probably would have put up a better defense too, if Kerrigan hadn't systematically destroyed most of it in HotS.

[ragnarok]

Don't know what cinematic you're talking about... but the cinematic Warrior is clearly trying to depict the sadness/sorrow/tragedy of all those Terran lives being lost to Amon and Moebius in LotV. The Dominion military in LotV are not evil anymore (if they ever were because Sc2 seems to be nailing it all on Mengsk Snr) because Valerian is their leader. They probably would have put up a better defense too, if Kerrigan hadn't systematically destroyed most of it in HotS.

You mean the one after "Brothers in Arms," Tura. That's the one I'm talking about. To me, there will be sympathy in the future, but not at that moment. At that moment there needed to be a recognization from the Dominion military of their arrogance in the past and now it's come back to bite them. It's no different than in HotS.

Furthermore, I see your point about Kerrigan's actions in HotS ruining the Korhal defenses, but you have to remember that the hybrids can control terrans as well. Granted it may take many hybrids, but it can be done. Let's pretend Kerrigan never attacked Korhal in HotS. Do you believe the hybrids could have eventually enslaved the whole Dominion military? (Once there's enough of them)


Oh, by that accord, she must be deserving of more sympathy because her sob story is somehow more special than all others.

Really Rag, you're digging a hole for yourself. You're clearly biased towards giving sympathy to Kerrigan more than/above her victims.

No, because we don't know what caused those serial killers to turn out the way they did.

Look Tura, I'm not here to say she should be given a free pass. Retribution and reckoning still has to happen if she doesn't learn. That's why I was frustrated with the way things turned out in HotS, because we got the exact opposite of everything we had hoped for, a sign of Blizzard's laziness and neglect.

[Gradius]

Basically Kerrigan is rag's favorite character and he can't be reasoned with that Kerrigan deserves to be punished for her crimes instead of getting off scot free, nay rewarded.

[DarthYam]

Basically Kerrigan is rag's favorite character and he can't be reasoned with that Kerrigan deserves to be punished for her crimes instead of getting off scot free, nay rewarded.

There's a difference between attacking a military base and attacking civilians. Kerrigan also had a reason; the most important thing is that she does genuinely change for the better. That's why her holding back on Korhal was a big deal; she had no incentive to do so. However, because it was the right thing she did it even though it would have made her goals harder. That's a genuinely selfless act no matter how you spin it. Her acceptance of Ouros's power is due to a desire to make things right, and she's technically the most expandable.

I'm not entirely satisfied with how Kerrigan turned out. However she's nowhere near a complete monster like some of the more rabid fans assume.

[ragnarok]

Basically Kerrigan is rag's favorite character and he can't be reasoned with that Kerrigan deserves to be punished for her crimes instead of getting off scot free, nay rewarded.

I said nothing of the sort, Gradius. That Kerrigan was allowed to walk away without retribution was wrong. I told Stratos many times over back on the battlenet forums that retribution was supposed to be inevitable.

- - - Updated - - -


There's a difference between attacking a military base and attacking civilians. Kerrigan also had a reason; the most important thing is that she does genuinely change for the better. That's why her holding back on Korhal was a big deal; she had no incentive to do so. However, because it was the right thing she did it even though it would have made her goals harder. That's a genuinely selfless act no matter how you spin it. Her acceptance of Ouros's power is due to a desire to make things right, and she's technically the most expandable.



DarthYam, but on the Korhal invasion, you have to consider: did she do it because she cared for humanity? Or because Raynor's reaction to her on the Moros finally get her to see up to that point, she learned virtually nothing? Because don't forget, the industrial worlds she ordered the swarm to destroy, she didn't tell the broodmothers to spare civilians....

[Gradius]

That's why her holding back on Korhal was a big deal; she had no incentive to do so. However, because it was the right thing she did it even though it would have made her goals harder. That's a genuinely selfless act no matter how you spin it.
How would her job be harder? She'd have had to morph a couple more disposable zerg clones from her hatcheries? Come on... Why don't we just give her the Nobel Peace Prize right off the bat? <_<

The fact that she has to be talked into sparing civilians twice on Korhal and it isn't something she was already doing without question proves that she's evil in my opinion. It essentially comes off as something she does for her own ego gratification than any real sympathy for others.


I'm not entirely satisfied with how Kerrigan turned out. However she's nowhere near a complete monster like some of the more rabid fans assume.
Yes, she does do a couple nice things amidst a slew of atrocities. Hitler donated to charity, doesn't mean I'm going to excuse/defend him like you guys are defending Kerrigan.

[ragnarok]

Yes, she does do a couple nice things amidst a slew of atrocities. Hitler donated to charity, doesn't mean I'm going to excuse/defend him like you guys are defending Kerrigan.

That's why I approve of you over the critics on the battlenet forums, who aren't willing to admit even that. My point remains in that she's not the same person anymore, it's just that the change is too small from the outside POV to make a difference (unless Blizzard decides to turn back to her again)

If nothing else, can we at least agree on THAT, Gradius?

[Turalyon]

You mean the one after "Brothers in Arms," Tura. That's the one I'm talking about. To me, there will be sympathy in the future, but not at that moment. At that moment there needed to be a recognization from the Dominion military of their arrogance in the past and now it's come back to bite them. It's no different than in HotS.

Do you even understand what the narrative at that point is even trying to tell you there? It's plain and simple to see that the Warrior cinematic is there, first and foremost, to lament the cost to Terran military lives because of this war with Amon and Moebius. There is nothing in the way that cinematic is intended, constructed, framed or portrayed that even remotely encourages anyone to think it really means "ha suck, you guys deserved it".


No, because we don't know what caused those serial killers to turn out the way they did.

Oh, so the military are all composed of serial killers now. It's interesting to see how that generalisation of your shifts to accommodate your bias. Even if this was so, Kerrigan in HotS is still the biggest serial killer of them all.

Also, because we don't know how they became serial killers and then part of the military, they are therefore inherently less worthy and deserving of sympathy than someone we do know is serial killing? What happened to benefit of the doubt? They could all have circumstances and history of abuse akin to Kerrigan for all we know.

[ragnarok]

Oh, so the military are all composed of serial killers now. It's interesting to see how that generalisation of your shifts to accommodate your bias. Even if this was so, Kerrigan in HotS is still the biggest serial killer of them all.

Also, because we don't know how they became serial killers and then part of the military, they are therefore inherently less worthy and deserving of sympathy than someone we do know is serial killing? What happened to benefit of the doubt? They could all have circumstances and history of abuse akin to Kerrigan for all we know.

Yes but she didn't choose to become a serial killer in the first place. It's only a shame she didn't understand to look at reason in HotS. From the infestation in SC1 up to WoL, at least she could say the Zerg influence played a role.

And yes you're right about history of abuse, but we don't know that for sure. There will always be those who kill merely for the hell of it all.


There is nothing in the way that cinematic is intended, constructed, framed or portrayed that even remotely encourages anyone to think it really means "ha suck, you guys deserved it".

Not at that moment, no. But sympathy towards a military who from SC1 all the way until the end of HotS has been the villain isn't meant to be easy. The view I'm talking about when I spoke to others online who said such a thing is basically mirroring the view of the post-war Wehrmacht. After all, it took several years before the western allies' view of the pitiful sight of defeated German soldiers finally changed.

I'm willing to bet if Blizzard makes it so that Amon never attacked the KMC or UP, they would have said similarly about such a scene of the Dominion troops there.

[Turalyon]

Yes but she didn't choose to become a serial killer in the first place.

She did choose to be a serial killer. She chose to continue being an assasin for Mengsk when she was freed from the Confeds. And then later decided to kill lots of people to get to one man in a story called Heart of the Swarm.


Not at that moment, no.

What other moment can you possibly be referring to? I'm talking about the nature/reason and conception of why the "Warrior" cinematic is even there in the narrative.


But sympathy towards a military who from SC1 all the way until the end of HotS has been the villain isn't meant to be easy.

Yeah, that's why the Warrior cinematic exists. It's there to evoke sympathy for the loss of Terran life. It's specifically those from the Dominion to show that they are not evil and deserving of sympathy.

However, this sympathy that they're asking for now in the Warriors cinematic was not even registered nor given any consideration for the Terran lives lost due to Kerrigan's actions in HotS. It just gets ignored so that in HotS, we're "supposed" to eat up the prospect that Kerrigan is genuinely "good" (a prospect which the writers were trying too hard and too obviously to sell).

[Gradius]

That's why I approve of you over the critics on the battlenet forums, who aren't willing to admit even that. My point remains in that she's not the same person anymore, it's just that the change is too small from the outside POV to make a difference (unless Blizzard decides to turn back to her again)

If nothing else, can we at least agree on THAT, Gradius?
I think people say that because really she doesn't act that much nicer than when she was infested in BW. She spared people back then too (Mengsk, Zeratul, Artanis) and also focused on military targets. I don't remember any missions where she goes out of her way to kill civilians in BW, do you? She also let everyone live at the end of the game. Yes, it was only so she could toy with them later, but from the outside perspective, she acts just as evil if not the same. Heck, in HoTS unlike BW we actually do see her explicitly attack civilian targets (cocooned colonists, destroyed apartments, destroyed planets, etc).

So yeah, it's no surprise that nobody really cares if she "feels bad about it" now after all that. If I learned that Stalin felt bad about killing millions of people, it wouldn't really change my opinion of him. The only thing that means to me is that instead of labeling Stalin/Kerrigan as psychopaths, they can now be designated as sociopaths because they actually have a conscience yet still kill people anyway.

[ragnarok]

She did choose to be a serial killer. She chose to continue being an assasin for Mengsk when she was freed from the Confeds. And then later decided to kill lots of people to get to one man in a story called Heart of the Swarm.


She chose to side by Mengsk back then because he rescued her from the Confederate tests. I'm sure you read Uprising, you know what I'm talking about.

HotS on the other hand was much more flawed because Kerrigan foolishly chose to act on her instincts than her reason, something that didn't hit her again until Raynor's reception to her on the Moros.




Yeah, that's why the Warrior cinematic exists. It's there to evoke sympathy for the loss of Terran life. It's specifically those from the Dominion to show that they are not evil and deserving of sympathy.

However, this sympathy that they're asking for now in the Warriors cinematic was not even registered nor given any consideration for the Terran lives lost due to Kerrigan's actions in HotS. It just gets ignored so that in HotS, we're "supposed" to eat up the prospect that Kerrigan is genuinely "good" (a prospect which the writers were trying too hard and too obviously to sell).

The only part you can give such sympathy in HotS was on Char when Kerrigan let the Dominion troops go, but even then it took Warfield to mention Raynor and everything. This is exactly her problem: she got too used to the idea that there's nothing to humanity except what Mengsk is like.





So yeah, it's no surprise that nobody really cares if she "feels bad about it" now after all that. If I learned that Stalin felt bad about killing millions of people, it wouldn't really change my opinion of him. The only thing that means to me is that instead of labeling Stalin/Kerrigan as psychopaths, they can now be designated as sociopaths because they actually have a conscience yet still kill people anyway.

And there in lies the problem as many would point out, and I would agree: a killer with emotions is still a killer. And that is why unless she tries to look back at humanity to see there's more to it all than just what she thinks....

[Turalyon]

She chose to side by Mengsk back then because he rescued her from the Confederate tests.

So? That doesn't deny the fact that she still chose to continue killing people.


I'm sure you read Uprising.

I've never read any of the EU.

[DarthYam]

I think people say that because really she doesn't act that much nicer than when she was infested in BW. She spared people back then too (Mengsk, Zeratul, Artanis) and also focused on military targets. I don't remember any missions where she goes out of her way to kill civilians in BW, do you? She also let everyone live at the end of the game. Yes, it was only so she could toy with them later, but from the outside perspective, she acts just as evil if not the same. Heck, in HoTS unlike BW we actually do see her explicitly attack civilian targets (cocooned colonists, destroyed apartments, destroyed planets, etc).

So yeah, it's no surprise that nobody really cares if she "feels bad about it" now after all that. If I learned that Stalin felt bad about killing millions of people, it wouldn't really change my opinion of him. The only thing that means to me is that instead of labeling Stalin/Kerrigan as psychopaths, they can now be designated as sociopaths because they actually have a conscience yet still kill people anyway.


1.) Telematros
2.) The Miners of the Kel Morian Combine

Kerrigan had a reason to go on the warpath, and the reason she did spare the people on Korhal wasn't "She'd have had to morph a couple more disposable zerg clones from her hatcheries?" It was that Mengsk's elite guard may have actually had a chance to kill far more of her troops and maybe even turn the tide of the battle. She increased her chances of potentially loosing the battle.

It doesn't change that when she had to choose between the "expedient but morally wrong" route and the "morally correct but inconvenient" route she choose the later. And that she did it even when she had no reason to believe Raynor would forgive her. The first time she held back was the same and because Valerian showed genuine concern.

Kerrigan at the end of the game is NOT the same person at the start of the game. In that regards she undergoes FAR more character development than she ever did in Brood War. She pulls back from the abyss whereas in brood war she cheerfully hopscotched over it. And "I've lost everything revenge is all I have" is more sympathetic than "I WANT POWER!!!!!!!!!!!"

Also, Turalyon part of the backstory is that many of the dominion soldiers are resocialized killers and murderers (Emily Swallow of Alpha Squadron is one). Many of the soldiers really are vicious cons who had to undergo brainwashing to be productive society members.

[ragnarok]

I've never read any of the EU.

You felt they were that crappy?

[ragnarok]

Kerrigan at the end of the game is NOT the same person at the start of the game. In that regards she undergoes FAR more character development than she ever did in Brood War. She pulls back from the abyss whereas in brood war she cheerfully hopscotched over it. And "I've lost everything revenge is all I have" is more sympathetic than "I WANT POWER!!!!!!!!!!!"


True, DarthYam. But that's not how others saw it. Hell, even in the "Believe in Me" cutscene, Kerrigan knew NOTHING she did could convince Raynor from what he was thinking. And obviously, Raynor was thinking that the only thing Kerrigan regretted that whole time was losing the power of the QoB and wanted it back no matter what. Kerrigan knew it was pointless to try to explain to him otherwise, he wasn't going to listen.

You're right about the quotes, I'll give you that, but this has to be seen from the OUTSIDE view as well. In the OUTSIDE view, assuming they see the difference, they would say it's too small and therefore negligible.


The first time she held back was the same and because Valerian showed genuine concern.

That's only a small part of the reason, DarthYam. The MAJOR reason is because of Raynor's reaction to her on the Moros. Since that was the only time in the game she finally tried to distance herself from the crimes committed, it also means Raynor's hostile reception finally got Kerrigan to try to actually use some rational thought, not just pure instincts. Especially since those instincts have repeatedly told her that humanity is just like Mengsk and therefore does not deserve to survive.

[DarthYam]

True, DarthYam. But that's not how others saw it. Hell, even in the "Believe in Me" cutscene, Kerrigan knew NOTHING she did could convince Raynor from what he was thinking. And obviously, Raynor was thinking that the only thing Kerrigan regretted that whole time was losing the power of the QoB and wanted it back no matter what. Kerrigan knew it was pointless to try to explain to him otherwise, he wasn't going to listen.

You're right about the quotes, I'll give you that, but this has to be seen from the OUTSIDE view as well. In the OUTSIDE view, assuming they see the difference, they would say it's too small and therefore negligible.



That's only a small part of the reason, DarthYam. The MAJOR reason is because of Raynor's reaction to her on the Moros. Since that was the only time in the game she finally tried to distance herself from the crimes committed, it also means Raynor's hostile reception finally got Kerrigan to try to actually use some rational thought, not just pure instincts. Especially since those instincts have repeatedly told her that humanity is just like Mengsk and therefore does not deserve to survive.

I've referred to the Moros as Kerrigan's Heel Realization. The way she's been justifying what she's been doing is to "avenge" Raynor. When the man she's using to justify her actions directly calls her out it forces her to take a long look in the mirror at which point she finally realizes how selfish and myopic she's been. She does terrible things but when it counts (at the end) she pulls back from the abyss and does the right thing. The Kerrigan at the Korhal Battle is a far cry from the Kerrigan who sacrifices Lassara on Kaldir. THAT'S what keeps her from being terrible; the fact that the character development sticks in Legacy makes it better.

[Gradius]

1.) Telematros
2.) The Miners of the Kel Morian Combine

Going by the standards you're judging all of her targets in HoTS, these are all military targets. What differentiates the two IMO are explicit references (cocooned colonist and ruined apartment buildings/road/shop doodads) and necessity (Kerrigan had to blow up Talematros and steal minerals for her plan to work, but she didn't have to spread creep over the entirety of the surface of multiple planets).


Kerrigan had a reason to go on the warpath, and the reason she did spare the people on Korhal wasn't "She'd have had to morph a couple more disposable zerg clones from her hatcheries?" It was that Mengsk's elite guard may have actually had a chance to kill far more of her troops and maybe even turn the tide of the battle. She increased her chances of potentially loosing the battle.
Meh. It's hard for me to buy when the planet is literally surrounded by Leviathans and the swarm outnumbers everyone. The Dominion is a joke compared to the swarm in terms of military strength; Kerrigan made sure of that in BW. And if not, the swarm can rebuild much faster than Terrans.



Kerrigan at the end of the game is NOT the same person at the start of the game. In that regards she undergoes FAR more character development than she ever did in Brood War.
Sure, but that doesn't mean her character is any good. I feel like they completely fucked up her motivations and turned her into a sociopath. It's hard for me to sympathize with that, though sure the idea itself could have had more mileage than what we got in BW.

But BW was still interesting. You saw a childish power monger who only wanted to kill people, I saw a character that made me question "how much of the old Sarah is left? And how much of the darkness within her is from the infestation vs how much was originally there?" All game Raynor struggles with the question of just how much she changed, and only when he resolved to kill her in the end did their arcs come to a satisfying conclusion.

[ragnarok]

Meh. It's hard for me to buy when the planet is literally surrounded by Leviathans and the swarm outnumbers everyone. The Dominion is a joke compared to the swarm in terms of military strength; Kerrigan made sure of that in BW. And if not, the swarm can rebuild much faster than Terrans.



Yes it is, Gradius. But you have to admit that Kerrigan learned from WoL in terms of military battles. After all, the swarm greatly outnumbered the Dominion forces in the Char invasion and they held out just fine under Raynor's leadership. My point is that as Kerrigan saw it, if the Dominion military was led by someone COMPETENT.....


I feel like they completely fucked up her motivations and turned her into a sociopath. It's hard for me to sympathize with that, though sure the idea itself could have had more mileage than what we got in BW.

Well, in that regards, you can't expect the whole betrayal thing to happen again. Look at it this way Gradius, let's pretend we could write SC2 story all over again. You can't expect to go about ANOTHER round of betrayals and such because no one would listen to her anymore.

And since you said the idea itself could have had more mileage, this should have made Fenix's death scene in BW more important, since at that point in time Kerrigan felt Raynor turned against her permanently and all.

[ragnarok]

I've referred to the Moros as Kerrigan's Heel Realization. The way she's been justifying what she's been doing is to "avenge" Raynor. When the man she's using to justify her actions directly calls her out it forces her to take a long look in the mirror at which point she finally realizes how selfish and myopic she's been. She does terrible things but when it counts (at the end) she pulls back from the abyss and does the right thing. The Kerrigan at the Korhal Battle is a far cry from the Kerrigan who sacrifices Lassara on Kaldir. THAT'S what keeps her from being terrible; the fact that the character development sticks in Legacy makes it better.

DarthYam, she did the right thing at the end but by then it's too late to escape retribution, that's the point I'm trying to make here. There's plenty of fiction out there where you try to get a killer to understand what he/she has done, and he/she finally understands it at the end of the story. But just understanding it is only the starting point. If you don't DO anything about it, it makes little difference.

[DarthYam]

DarthYam, she did the right thing at the end but by then it's too late to escape retribution, that's the point I'm trying to make here. There's plenty of fiction out there where you try to get a killer to understand what he/she has done, and he/she finally understands it at the end of the story. But just understanding it is only the starting point. If you don't DO anything about it, it makes little difference.

I said before how when Heart of the Swarm first had details released Lassara would be spared. Kerrigan would strike up a rapport with her and earn her respect and even friendship.

I'd also have Kerrigan NOT return to being Zerg; instead Zeratul exposes her to certain Xed'naga artifacts that increase her psychic powers. Kerrigan has a small link left with the Zerg (enough to command them) but her mind is human. This is a rough idea that I intend to develop later

Kaldir: The Protoss attack her; Kerrigan curb stomps the base but leaves the survivors alive. They're held captive. Kerrigan talks to Lassara. Seeing an outsider's description of her atrocities makes her more conflicted and adds to her inner turmoil; I'd have Kaldir be TWO missions; the first is the hunt for Na'fash. The Second is overwhelming the protoss base on the world.

Char: Kerrigan goes after the commander of the base. She recruits Za'gara. In the base we find out that Moebius Corp has been doing really unethical shit.

Zerus I'd replace with Aiur or something similar. She communes with the overmind's corpse to learn more of her destiny. At this point we learn that "Tassadar" is in fact the Tassamind. When Tassadar did his attack his soul merged with the overmind's as they perished. They ascended to being Xel'naga, and learn what the hell is going on. Hence the warning Zeratul got. We get partial fragments of Amon's backstory here (we learn that he was a Xel'Naga and that he was defeated and cast into the void by his brethren.) Kerrigan merges with the Tassamind's spirit, increasing her power tenfold. This allows her to command the swarm without becoming Zerg again. It's basically the "primal zerg" upgrade in that Kerrigan is far more powerful than she ever was but isn't insane. We get into a fight with the Tal'darim forces on the world, who want to stop Kerrigan's ascension.

Korhal: This WOULDN'T be the final mission. During the game Korhal get's occupied by the Tal'darim and Moebius corps (Mengsk basically invited them in because his empire stands on brittle glass). Mengsk explains





Legacy of the Void:

[Turalyon]

Also, Turalyon part of the backstory is that many of the dominion soldiers are resocialized killers and murderers (Emily Swallow of Alpha Squadron is one). Many of the soldiers really are vicious cons who had to undergo brainwashing to be productive society members.

So, in your book many means all and that generalisation is somehow sufficient enough to rationalise Kerrigan's killing of Dominion soldiers in general for whatever reason as being completely just? That's... interesting. There could be just as many people who enlisted in the Dominion military in the hopes of defending their homes from alien incursions, but nope, we'll just assume they're criminals too in order to prop up and maintain the designation of our protagonist as being "good".

Even if the audience were supposed to inherently think of all Dominion military as being evil scumbuckets deserving of their death at the hands of Kerrigan, their are many instances in Sc2 where Blizz is trying to convince you that they are anything but. Raynor's speech and the depiction of the damage the Dominion forces take on Char in WoL and the Warriors cinematic in LoTV all attest to this. Somehow, all this is apparently forgotten when Kerrigan actively searches and kills many Dominion military targets and the audience is supposed to assume their all evil and desreving of death because there was symapthy for the Dominion cinematic in HotS?

It makes it seem that the "morality" they're trying to depict, all just wishy-washy and ad hoc.


You felt they were that crappy?

I wouldn't know, I haven't read them. I just don't care enough to bother reading them.

[TheEconomist]

Dark Templar Saga was good until SC2 destroyed its relevance. "I, Mengsk" was good until SC2 ruined Mengsk. So.. yeah ... the usual ...

[ragnarok]

Dark Templar Saga was good until SC2 destroyed its relevance. "I, Mengsk" was good until SC2 ruined Mengsk. So.. yeah ... the usual ...

But I thought you said you didn't like the DT Saga since it made the Protoss more like space leprechauns.

[Gradius]

But I thought you said you didn't like the DT Saga since it made the Protoss more like space leprechauns.
The writing and characters were good, the worldbuilding sucked and basically helped ruin the Protoss.

[KaiserStratosTygo]

"I'm not entirely satisfied with how Kerrigan turned out. However she's nowhere near a complete monster like some of the more rabid fans assume."


Yeah, no.

she's one of the worst written and most despicable characters i've seen in some time, and unlike most of them, she got away with all of it, not just physically but in her lore's legacy as well.

the "rabid fans" aren't hard enough on this disaster of a character.

Sometimes I wish this would've happened to prevent all of this madness: https://youtu.be/rSkGirL-WDg?t=4m1s

always glad to see that Kerrigan fan wank is not tolerated around here.

[DarthYam]

Here's a sort of outline for HOTS that I think tries to address the problems (Amon and his forces not being relevant except for Skygierr; Kerrigan being nastier than she should)

Intro: The Moebius Corp and Tal'darim occupy Korhal. Mengsk has become desperate enough to let them come to Korhal, since half the fleet defected at Char and his public approval is in the shitter since the Tarsonis

Umoja Arc: 3 missions: Keep this arc; it actually works quite nicely; make it that the Tal'darim and Moebius forces have merged with the Dominion forces. They're the ones who take Raynor into custody; they also strongarm Mengsk into keeping Raynor alive to use as bait. Zeratul saves Kerrigan and Naktul from the Hybrids and Tal'darim forces; she, Raynor and

Kaldir: 2 missions: First mission is finding Na'fash; Second is taking out the protoss base before they can warn anyone. At the end of the mission Kerrigan captures Lassara and the other survivors. She keeps them captive

Char: 3 missions

Largely canon; instead there's a moebius facility on the base; we get information of this and Kerrigan realizes shit's going on

Aiur: 3 missions: This branch will have you being able to also play as Zeratul and his small warband of Dark Templar and Templar; Zeratul approaches Kerrigan and takes her to Aiur; the Tal'darim have moved in since last time and have started harvesting most of the Overmind's corpse

Misson 1: Fight your way to the Overmind site and stop the Tal'darim and Moebius Corp from destroying what little remains.

Cutscene: "Tassadar" shows up and reveals he is actually the Overmind and Tassadar fused together. He tells Kerrigan details (about how Amon is a fallen Xel'naga, how he helped engineer the genocide of his own people etc. He doesn't have the whole picture since he's relatively young but it helps nonetheless. Kerrigan is asked to absorb his power; it will allow her to command the swarm without being insane

Mission 2: Kerrigan absorbs Tassamind's essence and increases her power to the point she can command the swarm; Za'gara, Zeratul and the others have to defend the site from Tal'darim reinforcements. They pull it off and Kerrigan ascends.

Mission 3: The Spear of Adun: Tassamind warns them about the Spear of Adun and they must try to retrieve the ancient weapon from beneath Aiur's surface. Kerrigan uses her new powers to great effect and helps the team secure the Spear. Everyone gets the hell off the planet. Zeratul leaves Kerrigan to deliver the ship to Shakuras. As a show of faith, Kerrigan also releases the Protoss prisoners from Kaldir

Skygeirr Station: Kerrigan gets contacted by Stukov like in canon, and heads to Skygierr Station. They invade the station and we get missions similar to what we got in canon. Duran appears, and reveals that yes he is the one who played the UED and Swarm during the brood war. Kerrigan and Stukov face him, and they both kill him after Kerrigan gets more information out of him (at this point we learn the rest of Amon's backstory; we also get the wham reveal that AMON and his crew were the ones who uplifted the Protoss; we learn the things Rohana tells us. After this Kerrigan allows Stukov to take his revenge)

Saving Raynor: 2 missions: Try to find out where Amon's forces are holding Raynor captive; Mengsk, realizing that Amon's plans horrify even him, secretly contacts Kerrigan, revealing that Raynor is alive and that he can help save him from Amon's grasp. He admits that it's not nearly enough to atone for what he's done, and gives a sincere apology to Kerrigan for ruining her life nonetheless (he admits that loosing everything game him time to reflect on his life choices and he's finally realized how foolish he's been). Kerrigan realizes that Mengsk's reptentance is genuine, and so agrees to hear him out. However, she agrees that his actions cannot be enough. Over two missions Mengsk leads Kerrigan to the Moros; Kerrigan than breaks into the Moros and saves Raynor. Ulrezaj and the Taldarim realize that Mengsk helped Kerrigan and murder him; Mengsk dies, happy to have undone at least a little bit of his evil. They prepare to send out their fleet from Korhal to ravage the surrounding worlds;

Endgame:

Final branch: Amon has begun his devastating assault on the galaxy: Kerrigan must fight her way to Korhal and destroy one of the dark armies main staging points in order to stem the tide of the assault and give the other races a fighting chance. Kerrigan, Stukov and the rest of the swarm launch an attack on Korhal, aided by Raynor's raiders and the renegade dominion forces. Kerrigan and Stukov land outside the city and fight their way in. Eventually this culminates in a 2 on 2 duel; Kerrigan faces Ulrezaj the dark titan, and Stukov faces Duran. They manage to win the fight and decimate the occupation force on Korhal, liberating the planet....for now. Kerrigan and the others have won, but realize that war is on the horizon. So far they've damaged Amon's assault on the galaxy, but the battle has only begun

It's a little rough but I think it tries to fix some of the problems; it's about 19 missions, the same as Legacy's main campaign.

[ragnarok]

Yeah, no.

she's one of the worst written and most despicable characters i've seen in some time, and unlike most of them, she got away with all of it, not just physically but in her lore's legacy as well.

the "rabid fans" aren't hard enough on this disaster of a character.

Sometimes I wish this would've happened to prevent all of this madness: https://youtu.be/rSkGirL-WDg?t=4m1s

always glad to see that Kerrigan fan wank is not tolerated around here.

Hence the need to continue the story for a better form of redemption. The writers were too negligent on her.

Seriously Stratos, you're still too venting on it all.

Now DarthYam, the problem here still stands in that even with your proposal, it's still the same thing in that Kerrigan only did what she did for Raynor's sake.

[DarthYam]

That's not quite what I was doing; Kerrigan would have spared the Protoss on Kaldir in part because one of the captives would have been a small child; seeing the child scared strikes a chord in Kerrigan and she orders her forces to stand down and take them captive instead. The guys on Char would be lead by Moebius forces. Capturing the base would alert Kerrigan that there's some seriously bad shit going on, at which point Zeratul catches up with her. Once Kerrigan learns about her destiny she's willing to align with Zeratul; after all, the Tal'darim and Moebius are aligned with Mengsk. In short, their interests are aligned.

Raymor's captivity is more to give Mengsk one last shot at redemption by helping Kerrigan find Raynor as well as the Skygeirr facility. Unfortunately, in doing this, he alerts the Tal'darim forces to his duplicity, and they promptly murder him for it.

With Mengsk I was doing what Red Mist did in Kick Ass 3; after his mother tries to kill him he finally takes a long look at his actions and realizes how awful he's been. As a result, when his uncle tries to kidnap Hitgirl and murder her, Red Mist turns on the attackers and saves Hitgirl. Unfortunately he gets a bullet wound in the stomach. This, combined with a car crash, ultimately kills him. He calls Dave, and gives Hit girl info. He asks if it's enough to make up for what he's done. She tells him "don't be ridiculous." Red Mist than bleeds out on the side of the river. It's a surprisingly poignant scene all things considered.

With Mengsk I wanted him to make a genuine shot at redemption, yet make it clear that it wouldn't truly be enough. I was actually thinking of making Skygeirr the finale. They strike a first blow against Amon by taking out a hybrid plant, but Amon's forces are still on the move. At this point, the Tal'darim occupy the planet.

[ragnarok]

With Mengsk I wanted him to make a genuine shot at redemption, yet make it clear that it wouldn't truly be enough. I was actually thinking of making Skygeirr the finale. They strike a first blow against Amon by taking out a hybrid plant, but Amon's forces are still on the move. At this point, the Tal'darim occupy the planet.

Same here. Would have been better to kill Mengsk first, THEN deal with Narud. Then, in the final confrontation at Skygeirr, Narud could tell Kerrigan similarly that her victory at Skygeirr meant nothing since Amon didn't need the Dominion production facility.

Giving Mengsk a shot at redemption might have been possible at the end of BW, but SC2 proved he was deluded to the very end.

[DarthYam]

Same here. Would have been better to kill Mengsk first, THEN deal with Narud. Then, in the final confrontation at Skygeirr, Narud could tell Kerrigan similarly that her victory at Skygeirr meant nothing since Amon didn't need the Dominion production facility.

Giving Mengsk a shot at redemption might have been possible at the end of BW, but SC2 proved he was deluded to the very end.

The idea was that learning the full depth's of Amon's plans, loosing everything (at this point he's even more powerless than in BW, since the Tal'darim are the ones in control, knowing Kerrigan's out for his head) get him to finally look in the mirror and reflect on his life choices.

[KaiserStratosTygo]

"Hence the need to continue the story for a better form of redemption. The writers were too negligent on her."

Or instead of hamfisting a redemption plot, we remove this character, and focus on other's instead?

[ragnarok]

Or instead of hamfisting a redemption plot, we remove this character, and focus on other's instead?

You can say that if you want, Stratos. Regardless, I still believe if they return to it, they can do it.



The idea was that learning the full depth's of Amon's plans, loosing everything (at this point he's even more powerless than in BW, since the Tal'darim are the ones in control, knowing Kerrigan's out for his head) get him to finally look in the mirror and reflect on his life choices.

That's hard to say. I felt Mengsk was too deluded for his own good. This is why I compared his ego problem to that of Hitler's at times:

Basically Mengsk's mentality was that whoever opposed him was opposing humanity as a WHOLE, and if he was killed, humanity wouldn't survive without him