Tche's deliberations on LotV Campaign

[TcheQuevara]

This isn't plagiarism from another guy's thread. Why would it be?

The game

* Overall: this was the best SC II game of all the three. It got me binge playing until the very end.

* The soundtrack is due to 50% of the result. WoL's sountrack disappointed me - Russell Brower's direction unfortunately failed. We still had other composers doing good stuff, but Brower, who spent too much time doind WoW, unfortunately got yo do the main theme. It was one of the many stances in WoL were "epicness" swallowed "atmosphere". Another one were the sound design - much inferior to the 1998 original game which was made by a bunch of resourceless kids. HotS' soundtrack was so much better, a good surprise in all ways. It brought in new things to the table, like helping me see the Zerg and Kerrigan more like Godzilla than like HR Giger's Aliens, and was still a spiritual sucessor to Derek Duke's own music in SC Vanilla and BW. Good music that felt about violence and mistery, about being an alien, using prog rock and orchestras instead of dubstep.

Now LotV's soundtrack... I think I never liked video game music so much. It even moved me. Good pace, very emotional but without sugar. "The Stars our home" and "Last Stance" are really about the end of an era and about ancient aliens fighting against an ancient evil. All the track, but specially "Khala's End" and "The Fall of Shakuras" talk well about loss. 10/10, have been listening to again.

* The gameplay of the campaign is the best as well, as it should be. They had time to perfect the model. WoL had a genius meta-resource system with the credits and the research; it didn't give you as many options, but games shouldn't give you everything; but the missions, though as fun, where too repetitive in that all of them depended solely on the new unit being introduced. Making you choose sides was a darn good way to integrate story and gameplay. I don't even care none of our options will ever be canonical, but the problem was that you pretty much changed reality with your choices: if you choose Ariel, she good make a cure for infestation, if you choose Selendis, Ariel was infested and maybe lying to you... it was a good idea, badly executed. So HotS took this level of "story customization" away and gave us more freedom to customize Kerrigan and units. Nothing was permanent but the evolutions. It felt good! But unfortunately they failed to balance the missions properly with their "quasi-RPS" model. And it was too bad they didn't implement the Conqueror of Worlds mechanic...

...because a similar thing worked to the best in LotV. In LoTV we have full freedom to customize; which is good, but also cheap. Fortunately, this freedom makes sense in the story and because all the units seem different enough. The best, however, is the Spear of Adun. I always wandered what an actual fight in SC universe should look like if all the factions used all their resources and not just troops: nukes from Terrans, infestation spores from the Zerg and the technology to glass planets from the Protoss. In LotV, for the first time you are in control of the "post soldier" component of high tech war. It makes you feel more present at the battlefield than Kerrigan did. And because of what I said, it integrates the lore with gameplay much better. So we have the most satisfying gameplay so far!

* The cutscenes are much more well integrated with the general gameplay. They even played with it when you press "Launch" before a mission and intead of the mission starting the lights go off and Amon contacts you. Not much to talk here; it was a technical achievement, not just from programmers but also a evolution of their storytelling techniques. We could say in WoL we had point-and-click, RTS missions and cutscenes independently telling the story and now they made it harder to say when one ends and the other starts.

The story

* I'm going for a free-style musing instead of a review. Overall I was astounished by LotV's story in the first half, got a little disapointed here and there later, but overall it was great. The Epilogue was necessary, and better than another cliffhanger, but badly executed lore-wise. More ahead.

* When Artanis had all five of his "officials" with him - Rohana, Vorazun, Fenix, Alarak and Karax - discussing their plans, with their opinions and values shocking, it seemed to me LotV had something interesting to say about diversity. How to deal with it? Alarak posed a series of challenges on that. At their first interactions Alarak phisically intimidated Artanis into silence. Then Artanis learned to be a little like a Tal'Darim around him - imposing, violent and willing to hate. He and Vorazun talked about the Tal'Darim - she said their Ascencion rites where disgusting, and that she was afraid of fighting along potential betrayers. However, she was really afraid her culture would change into something more like the Tal'Darim with contact. That's the deal with diversity, isn't it? We're afraid our culture could change with immigrants and people with different morals or a different religious view. Maybe a naive person would say we should just embrace everyone - but is it that simple? Do we want to embrace and become like violent, psychopatic barbarians like Alarak? Artanis is willing to - because he's a radical. He's willing to pay every price of diversity. I thought it was brave of the story to talk of diversity of something with pros and cons.

But then the Judicator in me became filled with rage at the Khalai becoming a templar. Aw, come on, this is bullshit! They present it as if justive demands the caste system was abolished. But I liked in the Protoss that they were so alien - a post-scarcity society of people who don't it - that even social unequality could go well with them (since it obviously doesn't work with us). But seems Protoss became - and were - a little less alien than I liked them to be. Ironically, while Artanis is a radical for diversity, the writers are not radical enough. Thus the protoss become less different and less diverse from us.

Like with the loss of the Khala - Artanis not just learns to cope with its loss, but also disown its legacy. This seems to me like a poisonous idea that was there since SC1 - the Khala is actually bad, because it makes them colectivists and smart people should be individualists. Of course this is silly. Maybe humans should be individualists (we shouldn't), but aliens might work differently. This finally comes to a close with Artanis decreting this Khala thing was just a mistake. So it says the Judicator in me, at least.

* However, the writers chose LotV to be not so much a story about loss but much more a story about let-go. And that's the core of it: letting go of prejudices is the easy, common sense part of it. The story demands them to let go of their identities, their memories, their past, their values, their home planets. In a short story Vorazun has a discussion with the rest of the Twilight Council because she didn't want a holy mountain to be mined; in the game, she explodes the whole planet. How can fans criticize a work for changing all we liked about Protoss if the game itself says some strong things about let-go and attachment? Artanis' let-go doesn't even sound to me like spiritual, or merely pragmatic; it is a radical choice. They chose a new meaning of what being a Protoss means; now they're sticking to it and cutting off everything that doesn't belong with that. It's like the Cultural Revolution if it was enacted by a compassionate telepath. Still, it's impactful. They tried to say something relevant about choice in WoL and failed, because they were unable to say anything ugly about choice. Now here's choice, and let-go, and what they wanted to talk about in their game, wirts and all. They're not trying to send a good message anymore (WoL) nor are they afraid to show something ugly anymore (as they were in HotS). This makes LotV campaign the best one, in my opinion.

* All along, Amon was like a space Gengis Khan. His objectives (destroy everything) are alien, sure, but he's too much like a mundane conqueror. Get armies, conquer planets. He's too much like a powerful person and not enough like an alien entity like Cthulhul, which spiritual and philosophical presence can be more threatening than its physical one. On the other side, they almost achieve to make him more threatening and screwed up by making him human (he wants to save the universe from suffering), but them just go back to make it about petty veangeance and hate. It's like Blizzard, even in their best section of SC II, have lost the capacity to understand moral subtleties. The villain not only wants to cause utter evil (destruction of everything) but he also has utter evil feelings (hatred and egotism). Just like Arcturus before him; can we have a noble villain? Someone with good intetions who does evil, and that you must fight and destroy to survive all the same? Or, can we have evil heroes, necessary evil you got to ally to, like Alarak? No, Arcturus had to be both rotten to his core, past redemption, and a bad influence for the sector.

* The epilogue, as I said, was necessary, but not well done. It is hard on the suspense of disbelief to put Terran and Protoss and Zerg side to side. I think it actually never happened, except in BW when Kerrigan manipulated everyone? See, they had a good set up that time: they're desperate and don't even like each other. Now Kerrigan is all the way too much like a super hero instead of the anti hero she can only be; even in the Ulnar missions, with Artanis, she was too sweet and willing to prove she became good. Raynor just shows up there with a lot of troops and so does Artanis. No, we needed a good set up so a mission with the three races does not sound like a parody of Mount Hyjal.

That's the epilogue main flaw. Every cynic opinion on it derives from that, in my opinion. If they had did it right, it would be the kind of "epic" they wanted and they talk so much about - not my favorite way of doing sci-fi, but their choice, right? However, when epic fails, it's silly. And if there's genre that can't survive silliness it's sci-fi. So the epilogue is too much like Power Rangers and too little like Babylon 5. Kerrigan's "mutilation" of absorving Xel'Naga essence makes she freakshly big and unhuman... but it could make more, right? I don't know, getting her together with Raynor in the end is like they don't have the balls to give us a bittersweet ending.

And that were my thoughts, uh, meditations, what did I write up there? "Deliberations", what does that even mean.

Veredict for LotV: Game, 9.5/10; Story, 9/10 for the Protoss campaign and 5/10 for the epilogue.

[Nissa]

The grammar of some of your statements makes your meaning unclear, but I get what you're saying about letting go. Blizzard used LotV to tell us fans to let go of SC/BW because Starcraft is whatever they want it to be, not what we like.

[Turalyon]

Seeing how there's hardly anyone here anymore, seems like most people haven't had much trouble letting Starcraft "go" already.

[TheEconomist]

Still can't make the connection from BW to WoL. I feel no sense of closure.

[ragnarok]

Seeing how there's hardly anyone here anymore, seems like most people haven't had much trouble letting Starcraft "go" already.

Lorewise it's not hard because it focused too much on fantasy.

[TcheQuevara]

Come on guys, surely there was something more interesting in the OP to comment about?

[Turalyon]

^ Um, you forgot to say that Alarak was the coolest Protoss character in LotV? I had forgotten how fun Protoss dickery could be until he showed up.

[Nissa]

Sorry Tche, we're all tapped out. It's basically to the point where SCII is just fan-abandoned.

Am I the only one who wasn't all that impressed with Alarak? I'm not saying he was horrible, he just felt like the sort of snarky character that De Lancie always plays. He's not really so much of a Starcraft character as he is just some modern trope with a voice actor everyone likes.

[ragnarok]

Sorry Tche, we're all tapped out. It's basically to the point where SCII is just fan-abandoned.

Am I the only one who wasn't all that impressed with Alarak? I'm not saying he was horrible, he just felt like the sort of snarky character that De Lancie always plays. He's not really so much of a Starcraft character as he is just some modern trope with a voice actor everyone likes.

Not fan abandoned, Nissa. Some of us still try to see what had been accomplished, instead of just a total botch up

[TheEconomist]

Am I the only one who wasn't all that impressed with Alarak? I'm not saying he was horrible, he just felt like the sort of snarky character that De Lancie always plays. He's not really so much of a Starcraft character as he is just some modern trope with a voice actor everyone likes.

I thought he was alright, but I was definitely not impressed in any way.

[TcheQuevara]

I think we've got good things ahead Nissa. It isn't the Starcraft from 1998 - the one we loved so much because it joined atmosphere, storytelling and gameplay, all with very simple but effective elements - but it might be better than no SC at all! Instead of a decade of pretty much no Starcraft (aside from novels about... energy creatures? roverlisks?) we'll have at least a couple DLC pushing the story forward. We have Blizzard matured away from their brainless, mass-production style of the WoW years - they were pretty much applying formulas on everything and ruining their IPs - and apparently one that absorved part of the criticism on everything. We have some few years of new SC content ahead.

I loved Alarak. As a review said, LotV was better acted then written. De Lancie convinced me from the begining. The character got a little repetitive at some point, yeah, but he still was representing a nice tension. In SC1/BW the Aiur Protoss where integrating into Shakuras - they were different, but both were noble. The Tal'Darim are evil. They worship oppression, violence and privilege. While Tassadar gave a speech about saving all sentience, the Tal'Darim were willing to destroy all sentience in the galaxy but themselves. The Rak'Shir is disgusting, according to Vorazun, and yet Artanis is willing to integrated with them too. As I said, it talks much more about diversity, in a way that only science fiction or fantasy can talk about, then the whole Dark Templar plot ever did. So even if Alarak wasn't perfect all the time, he was always creating this interesting tension.

But he was awesome most of the time, anyway. I never heard anything from the actor before so it worked great for me.

[Turalyon]

Alarak is only "good" relative to whoever else was around at the time (it's like how LotV is considered "better" than the HotS or Revenge of the Sith is "better" than the other prequels). All the other Protoss were pretty dull, even Artanis. What with the lack of facial movements combined with flat vocal delivery and overwrought solemnity of the dialogue for all the other Protoss characters, Alarak could not help but be noticed.


but it might be better than no SC at all!

I'm one of the rare people who would've preferred no Starcraft II and that was before Starcraft II became even official. To have Sc2 actually end up re-enforcing my original view is ironically sad.


Instead of a decade of pretty much no Starcraft (aside from novels about... energy creatures? roverlisks?) we'll have at least a couple DLC pushing the story forward.

Is it bad that I'm more interested in seeing how well these are going to be received and how long this'll keep going (especially when considering one has to pay for it) rather than for the actual story/lore that they're supposed to be about?

[ragnarok]

I'm one of the rare people who would've preferred no Starcraft II and that was before Starcraft II became even official. To have Sc2 actually end up re-enforcing my original view is ironically sad.


Many people were disappointed with how SC2 turned out. Metzen now just has to admit this for HotS and LotV. WoL still had a good idea, I didn't mind that too much.

[Gradius]

I don't understand the appeal behind Alarak either. He's slightly fun, but doesn't seem like an actual protoss character. His voice acting gets rave reviews for some reason, but I think he sounds like he has a speech impediment. I'm not a fan of the inclusion of the Tal'Darim to begin with, who are just darker and edgier Dark Templar. That role should have been given to some other dark templar, instead of completely dropping the unity of khala and void theme that they've been building up for multiple games to asspull an entirely new protoss civilization out of nowhere. I was sad there were no twilight templar/archons.


Many people were disappointed with how SC2 turned out. Metzen now just has to admit this for HotS and LotV. WoL still had a good idea, I didn't mind that too much.
Exact opposite. Metzen already admitted that WoL sucked:


Reflecting back on StarCraft 2’s first installment, Wings of Liberty, Metzen views it with a mix of pride and a healthy dose of writer’s self-loathing. To get ready for Legacy of the Void, he popped in Wings of Liberty just a few weeks ago to play the campaign again. The nostalgia trip came with a few bruises.

"I was like, oof, over and over again, oh my God, this sounded so good at the time," Metzen says. "Oh my God, it’s terrible."
StarCraft statue
A detailed figure of Kerrigan in the Blizzard offices

Among those storylines that didn’t make the cut was a serious "down and out" drinking problem for Raynor. The missions Metzen wanted showed Raynor screwing up in some way, even after players successfully achieved their goal. People would end up hurt, but eventually, Raynor would overcome his personal demons and find redemption.

"At the time, the team was just like, ‘Why? It’s unnecessary,’" Metzen says. "‘I just wanna see things nuked! I want to feel badass right out of the gate.’ That’s perfectly valid. If I were writing a novel about it, it might have been great.

"But in developing these fictions for games, you gotta remember, people just want to feel powerful and effective. If the first X minutes of your gameplay, the first X missions in a narrative wave, if you just feel kinda cruddy and icky and low, you’re not gonna stick with it. You’re not gonna enjoy it or bring out this heroic thing that we were really chasing, for the most part, in the first place."

Despite whatever clumsiness remains, he says, he’s still happy for the work he put in. Writing for games isn’t easy, and working on your craft requires putting your heart out there again and again.

"It’s just writers, right," he says. "We’re always like, oh, God, why did that sound like such a good idea at the time? But at the same time, as crude as things can look in hindsight, I’m super proud of it too. ... It all started somewhere. It doesn’t have to be Shakespeare. It doesn’t have to be perfect. What is perfect? We want to build these things as best we can.

"You aren’t afforded the ability to be all that precious. You gotta push passionately."

Wings of Liberty is home to many themes and stories that Metzen felt passionately about when it was made. Sometimes that makes it harder to reflect on.

"Looking back at the writing stuff over time, there’s stuff that I’m super embarrassed by," Metzen says. "Whether it was just bad writing, or there were ideas that were really important to me at the time — but I look back and I feel exposed, chasing themes or story moments that meant a lot to me at the time. But for every one of those, I’m equally proud of having taken the step, taken a stand, clumsy as it all may have been. It was real. It was pure art at the time."
http://www.polygon.com/2015/11/6/9670176/starcraft-2-future-history-dlc-blizzard

[TcheQuevara]

Is it bad that I'm more interested in seeing how well these are going to be received and how long this'll keep going (especially when considering one has to pay for it) rather than for the actual story/lore that they're supposed to be about?

That's my attitude to Brazilian politics lately...

But I'm curious about how it'll work business wise too. I'm also curious to see what's gonna happen to the lore fandom.


I don't understand the appeal behind Alarak either. ... I'm not a fan of the inclusion of the Tal'Darim to begin with, who are just darker and edgier Dark Templar. That role should have been given to some other dark templar, instead of completely dropping the unity of khala and void theme that they've been building up for multiple games to asspull an entirely new protoss civilization out of nowhere. I was sad there were no twilight templar/archons.

The Tal'Darim aren't edgier Nerazim. The Nerazim are individualistic (for Protoss), nomadic, and their religiosity is heavy on mysticism; the Tal'Darim are hierarchical, organized and fanatical. Both are "Protoss in space", Protoss out of Aiur, settling in religiously relevant planets (with Xel Naga relics or Terrazine); but the Nerazim were the result of a diaspora and the Tal'Darim were the result of being a "chosen people". Aiur folks are bushi, proud warriors; Nerazim are hunters; and Tal'Darim are cruel and bloodlustful. You might as well say the Tal'Darim are "evil Khalai" because of how "Lawful" they are.

Going further for D&D references, Alarak is the Lawful Evil to Zeratul's Chaotic Good (and both epitomize those aspects of their societies). I don't want to feed the "Protoss are space elves" meme (I don't think they are), but they are as different as Drow are different from Wood Elves. In this comparison the Khalai would be High or Gray Elves.

The Tal'Darim were an awful idea in WoL. But for me they were one of LotV's better surprises. I agree a lot of the "antagonist protoss" stuff could be done by rogue Nerazim instead of the Tal'Darim, though.

On Alarak's character, I think that's how "character acting" looks like. I'm not into realist acting anyway.

EDIT: oh yeah, they foretold the Twilight thing for years then suddenly gave up on it. Lame. But it shows they changed directions a lot - including when they did I never thought they would and they bought your idea of having Artanis as the protagonist ;) Seriously though Gradius, they didn't talk of the Twilight stuff because of you. You killed Zeratul, man.

[ragnarok]

I don't understand the appeal behind Alarak either. He's slightly fun, but doesn't seem like an actual protoss character. His voice acting gets rave reviews for some reason, but I think he sounds like he has a speech impediment. I'm not a fan of the inclusion of the Tal'Darim to begin with, who are just darker and edgier Dark Templar. That role should have been given to some other dark templar, instead of completely dropping the unity of khala and void theme that they've been building up for multiple games to asspull an entirely new protoss civilization out of nowhere. I was sad there were no twilight templar/archons.


Exact opposite. Metzen already admitted that WoL sucked:


http://www.polygon.com/2015/11/6/9670176/starcraft-2-future-history-dlc-blizzard

Which really makes me wonder if he's really embarrassed by it, would he eventually allow the whole trilogy to be remade.

[Turalyon]

He's slightly fun, but doesn't seem like an actual protoss character.

That's a bad thing? Fenix in Sc1 doesn't seem like a typical Protoss character either and that's precisely why he gets some love.


His voice acting gets rave reviews for some reason

It's easy. His voice actor is the only one that doesn't seem like somebody's just reading a script out loud.


but I think he sounds like he has a speech impediment.

Well, speech impediments didn't do any harm to Abathur's cred.


The Tal'Darim aren't edgier Nerazim. The Nerazim are individualistic (for Protoss), nomadic, and their religiosity is heavy on mysticism

It would've been better if they were since it'd do away with having to explain (which they didn't) why they can't be controlled by Amon despite still having their nerve cords when they rebelled and that they just apparently have been everywhere in the K sector for a long time but apparently and suddenly have made themselves known only now. I probably would've preferred them as Nerazim since it needs to be acknowledged that not all Dark Templar are "good" and it would give us a reason why mainstream Protoss shunned/feared them (and still do) in the first place. Like the Templar being the "good" to the "bad" of the Conclave (much as I dislike how it has been reduced to such disctinctions at all) for the Protoss on Aiur, the Nerazim needed something like what the Tal'Darim represent to balance the inherent "goodness" of those Protoss on Shakuras.

The Tal'Darim aren't needed to be evil Aiur Protoss, because Blizz already have done that by foisting it onto the Conclave. The extremes the Tal'Darim go to are better explained from the Nerazim POV. How? Well, the invidividualism of the Nerazim can easily breed a character like the one we see as Alarak in LotV. The nomadic lifestyle can explain why they just suddenly have appeared now because they were previously off on their own pursuits having broken away from the "good" Shakuras Nerazim. Their religiosity and mysticism can become this fanaticism which is characterised in the game we got as this worshipping of Amon.

[TheEconomist]

Blizzard matured away from their brainless, mass-production style of the WoW years

Yeah, now they've evoled into a free-to-play model. Much better.

[KaiserStratosTygo]

I've let go of the franchise at this point, because of that shitty unnecessary epilogue (and all of of HotS)

I've since taken the stance however silly that nothing beyond BW is canon.

if they wanted me to accept shitty 2010's action film as StarCaft they've made a crucial error.


" but it might be better than no SC at all!"

Highly debatable.


" Instead of a decade of pretty much no Starcraft '

strangely enough felt better than.


"we'll have at least a couple DLC pushing the story forward."

Which I shall not buy, the story is already bad beyond repair, and I personally have boycotted blizzard for a myriad of reasons.



" We have Blizzard matured away from their brainless, mass-production style of the WoW years"

maturing now into brainless 2010's EPIC tropes.

[Nissa]

I likewise agree that no SCII is better than the one we got. The thing that kept so many fans hoping was the sequel we imagined in our heads. Honestly, most people's mental sequels were bound to be better than what we got. When I found out from a friend of a Blizz employee that a sequel was being made, post initial excitement, my first emotion was disappointment.




That's a bad thing? Fenix in Sc1 doesn't seem like a typical Protoss character either and that's precisely why he gets some love.

Huh? He seems like a 'Toss to me. He seems more like a normal example of a Templar than Tassadar. Tassadar is a rebel, but Fenix represents what the Templar are in normal circumstances.




It's easy. His voice actor is the only one that doesn't seem like somebody's just reading a script out loud.

I lol'ed.


It would've been better if they were since it'd do away with having to explain (which they didn't) why they can't be controlled by Amon despite still having their nerve cords when they rebelled and that they just apparently have been everywhere in the K sector for a long time but apparently and suddenly have made themselves known only now. I probably would've preferred them as Nerazim since it needs to be acknowledged that not all Dark Templar are "good" and it would give us a reason why mainstream Protoss shunned/feared them (and still do) in the first place. Like the Templar being the "good" to the "bad" of the Conclave (much as I dislike how it has been reduced to such disctinctions at all) for the Protoss on Aiur, the Nerazim needed something like what the Tal'Darim represent to balance the inherent "goodness" of those Protoss on Shakuras.

The Tal'Darim aren't needed to be evil Aiur Protoss, because Blizz already have done that by foisting it onto the Conclave. The extremes the Tal'Darim go to are better explained from the Nerazim POV. How? Well, the invidividualism of the Nerazim can easily breed a character like the one we see as Alarak in LotV. The nomadic lifestyle can explain why they just suddenly have appeared now because they were previously off on their own pursuits having broken away from the "good" Shakuras Nerazim. Their religiosity and mysticism can become this fanaticism which is characterised in the game we got as this worshipping of Amon.

Or they could have just never added the generic lame baddie called Amon.

[TcheQuevara]

It would've been better if they were since it'd do away with having to explain (which they didn't) why they can't be controlled by Amon despite still having their nerve cords when they rebelled

But they did. The Tal'Darim have no Khala. Maybe they are in the "Aeon of Strife" state - they have the cords but are full of hate and violence and can't connect. They probably left Aiur before Khas. Makes sense, didn't it? Amon gets pissed with most of Protoss and separates just a few of them which he takes to distant parts of the galaxy, then goes to Zerus, then the Khala wakes the Xel'Naga and they wage war with Amon, resulting in his death - surprisingly, this is Starcraft II chronology which makes sense! You gotta cherish the good things you have :)

The first Nerazim were born in a planet full of Khala. They'd join it if they didn't cut the cords. It is unclear if a young Nerazim in 2500 or so, before they made contact with Aiur again, would need to cut their cords or if it would be just a ritual by then.





and that they just apparently have been everywhere in the K sector for a long time but apparently and suddenly have made themselves known only now.

It is weird, but specially because how they were presented in WoL. All of a sudden you have this faction of Protoss that shouldn't exist according to ANY piece of lore, and everyone - psych Tosh, Protoss-friend Raynor, etc - think it's completely normal they're out there. So they aren't weird guys who came out of nowhere and now you get your head scratching because it's something the writer does put there as a mistery - it's just lazy and incoherent. We're supposed to think it's ok to have Protoss foes which aren't Daelam nor Nerazim. Very stupid, for sure.

In LotV, they did what they could to correct it. I don't remember if it was Vorazun who says she now sees they might had been fighting an invisible war with the Tal'Darim for millenia. Not the best answer.... I think some of the nomadic Nerazim should have known the Tal'Darim existed (as they would also flock to Xel'Naga relics). But at least they have an explanation to why the Tal'Darim have the same units. It really got me pissed off the Tal'Darim had Colossi and Immortals in WoL - those were supposed to be secret or new weapons of the Daelam. Now it does make sense if you apply a pint of imagination on WoL missions, which is something all gamers should do, btw, all media but movies expect the public to use their imagination and video games are getting sillier as the public demands more photorealistic games. But I digress.



I probably would've preferred them as Nerazim since it needs to be acknowledged that not all Dark Templar are "good" and it would give us a reason why mainstream Protoss shunned/feared them (and still do) in the first place. Like the Templar being the "good" to the "bad" of the Conclave (much as I dislike how it has been reduced to such disctinctions at all) for the Protoss on Aiur, the Nerazim needed something like what the Tal'Darim represent to balance the inherent "goodness" of those Protoss on Shakuras.

Agreed. I'd like more Nerazim villains or rogues. I do like the Tal'Darim though, I think they were turned from a lore-shattering plot hole to a nice addition.



The Tal'Darim aren't needed to be evil Aiur Protoss, because Blizz already have done that by foisting it onto the Conclave.

Burn, hehehe. Judicators, the original mustache twirling villains of Starcraft. The anti-clericalism is strong in this one. I don't know, I'd really love to see the Judicator as corrupt manipulating assholes who still make themselves necessary because of their actual wisdom. The way they turned out it's like they've always been parasites.


The extremes the Tal'Darim go to are better explained from the Nerazim POV. How? Well, the invidividualism of the Nerazim can easily breed a character like the one we see as Alarak in LotV. The nomadic lifestyle can explain why they just suddenly have appeared now because they were previously off on their own pursuits having broken away from the "good" Shakuras Nerazim. Their religiosity and mysticism can become this fanaticism which is characterised in the game we got as this worshipping of Amon.

I like it your way and I like Blizzard's way. I wish both things were true in the lore.

[Turalyon]

Huh? He seems like a 'Toss to me. He seems more like a normal example of a Templar than Tassadar. Tassadar is a rebel, but Fenix represents what the Templar are in normal circumstances.

At the time of Sc1, we only had Tassadar, Aldaris and Zeratul to compare Fenix against so I'm basing what I said about a "typical Protoss" is by looking at commonalities that the majority of those characters had. Those latter three (majority) have a certain and consistent "air"/nobility to them that Fenix lacks. In LotV all the other Protoss "characters" are stiff and righteous in their own ways, whilst Alarak just cuts the shit and has no pretensions.


But they did. The Tal'Darim have no Khala. Maybe they are in the "Aeon of Strife" state - they have the cords but are full of hate and violence and can't connect. They probably left Aiur before Khas. Makes sense, didn't it?

It's only really assumed so. It's never really made clear or explained. We shouldn't have to work with "maybes" and "probablys" to make it fit. What with the ongoing and fluid retroactive continuity, it's even more difficult to understand.

As far as I'm concerned, the Khala was something that can be opted out of at any time without having to cut one's cords off. The first Nerazim are examples of this. You're wrong about the Nerazim needing to cut off their cords otherwise they'll be subsumed by the Khala because a) the communal link existed before the Aeon of Strife and opting out of this link (not cutting their cords) by choice alone was what caused it and b) the Nerazim didn't cut off their cords originally to physically deny themselves to the Khala, but merely as a symbolic gesture.


It is weird, but specially because how they were presented in WoL. All of a sudden you have this faction of Protoss that shouldn't exist according to ANY piece of lore, and everyone - psych Tosh, Protoss-friend Raynor, etc - think it's completely normal they're out there. So they aren't weird guys who came out of nowhere and now you get your head scratching because it's something the writer does put there as a mistery - it's just lazy and incoherent. We're supposed to think it's ok to have Protoss foes which aren't Daelam nor Nerazim. Very stupid, for sure.

In LotV, they did what they could to correct it. I don't remember if it was Vorazun who says she now sees they might had been fighting an invisible war with the Tal'Darim for millenia. Not the best answer.... I think some of the nomadic Nerazim should have known the Tal'Darim existed (as they would also flock to Xel'Naga relics). But at least they have an explanation to why the Tal'Darim have the same units. It really got me pissed off the Tal'Darim had Colossi and Immortals in WoL - those were supposed to be secret or new weapons of the Daelam. Now it does make sense if you apply a pint of imagination on WoL missions, which is something all gamers should do, btw, all media but movies expect the public to use their imagination and video games are getting sillier as the public demands more photorealistic games. But I digress.

Agreed. Unfortunately, even despite what they could, the Tal'Darim are but only one example of the many instances of this "weirdness" throughout Sc2. Makes you think that the whole thing was written without much forethought/planning. Ironically, I actually am hoping that were the case because if Sc2's story was revealed to be meticulously planned out from the get go.... I shudder at the mere thought of that being the possibility.


Burn, hehehe. Judicators, the original mustache twirling villains of Starcraft. The anti-clericalism is strong in this one. I don't know, I'd really love to see the Judicator as corrupt manipulating assholes who still make themselves necessary because of their actual wisdom. The way they turned out it's like they've always been parasites.

Tell me about it. The Conclave were fully justified in their actions during Sc1 and there was nothing inherently "evil" about them at all. Their strategy against the Zerg was working until Tassadar decided to change things up and then they feared their highest military commander was in cahoots with an element of their society that in the past was directly responsible for a centuries long dark age which almost led to their own extinction had Khas not appeared to kickstart and ultimately setup the civilisation they have today. In Sc2, Blizz seems to like reducing things down into Manichean terms. Just look at how Rohana is represented as a character - she's made out to be all that's ever wrong about the Conclave and then only becomes "good" when she acquiesces to Artanis' persistent nagging of her to cut her chords which are both figuratively "bad" because holding onto history just arbitrarily is for whatever reason and physically "bad" because it's connected to Amon who is just arbitrarily evil for whatever reason.


I like it your way and I like Blizzard's way. I wish both things were true in the lore.

Like Nissa said, my way would be even better had we done away with Amon as well. That way, they could also cut out the religious/mystic stuff, too since they are not necessarily (and never were when it comes to the Protoss in Sc1) the only prerequisite for zealotry and fanaticism. See how Zeratul views Aldaris as being "blinded" by the "vaunted religion" that is the Conclave for example. The greatest irony here is that he then becomes a hypocrite when you take that in context of what happens with him in Sc2.

[TcheQuevara]

It's only really assumed so. It's never really made clear or explained. We shouldn't have to work with "maybes" and "probablys" to make it fit.

I think they adopt an economy of exposition. They don't want to explain everything because it takes time. Of course, this means Q&As in conventions get biiig lines over this kind of detail.



As far as I'm concerned, the Khala was something that can be opted out of at any time without having to cut one's cords off. The first Nerazim are examples of this. You're wrong about the Nerazim needing to cut off their cords otherwise they'll be subsumed by the Khala because a) the communal link existed before the Aeon of Strife and opting out of this link (not cutting their cords) by choice alone was what caused it and b) the Nerazim didn't cut off their cords originally to physically deny themselves to the Khala, but merely as a symbolic gesture.

Hm, maybe they could opt out after a lot of training or being raised differently. Nowhere it says a Protoss could instantly shut the Khala away from its mind. And we know from BW manual that the Judicator could mind control other Protoss in the Khala. So I think in the middle of a crisis of mind invasion there was nothing the Aiur Protoss could do but cut off their neural cords. Rohana actually found a way to isolate herself from Amon with sheer willpower and training, and I think Artanis made her cut them off more because he needed to destroy the Khala and Rohana's Khala would mean Amon would have somewhere to hide then because he was making a case of "changing her mind", so to speak.


Tell me about it. The Conclave were fully justified in their actions during Sc1 and there was nothing inherently "evil" about them at all.

I feel like after a lot of years Metzen forgot a lot of SC plot and only remembered a simplified version of what he wrote. They dealt with the Judicators in SC2 continuity very goofily.


. Just look at how Rohana is represented as a character - she's made out to be all that's ever wrong about the Conclave and then only becomes "good" when she acquiesces to Artanis' persistent nagging of her to cut her chords which are both figuratively "bad" because holding onto history just arbitrarily is for whatever reason and physically "bad" because it's connected to Amon who is just arbitrarily evil for whatever reason.


Now, I disagree on this. I think Rohana was shown to be wise in her own way. As and I said in OP, LotV is a lot about letting go. She didn't want to, but in the end, she's a collectivist to her core, and being the last Khala user in the universe would be an unbearable contradiction. She has faith she can bare the pain of change, though. She accepts her leadership. And so on. It is her Judicator personality and religious zeal that makes her cut off the cords in the end.


That way, they could also cut out the religious/mystic stuff, too since they are not necessarily (and never were when it comes to the Protoss in Sc1) the only prerequisite for zealotry and fanaticism. See how Zeratul views Aldaris as being "blinded" by the "vaunted religion" that is the Conclave for example. The greatest irony here is that he then becomes a hypocrite when you take that in context of what happens with him in Sc2.

You think the Protoss sound like fanatics in SC2? To me, they sound religious, but not fanatics at all. Artanis is rather the reformist and the pragmatist. I think religiosity is something really great to explore in fiction. Might be because I'm religious myself, but I like to imagine how aliens would experience their (pretty much) non-theistic faith.

[Turalyon]

I think they adopt an economy of exposition. They don't want to explain everything because it takes time.

Economy of exposition is fine if the detail is not important. This is not the case. They go out of their way to demonstrate that the Khala is tied to nerve cords and that the Khala can be controlled through those nerve cords. This suggests that this type of exposition is important. But later (and only very obliquely) they suggest that the Khala is not tied to nerve cords (the Tal'Darim) and then expect others to accept that unreservedly as the reason the Tal'Darim can't ever be controlled by Amon and that Protoss just can't disconnect without cutting off their cords? Feels like a cheat or that they didn't know what they were doing rather than being coy about releasing that information.


Hm, maybe they could opt out after a lot of training or being raised differently. Nowhere it says a Protoss could instantly shut the Khala away from its mind.

Read the origin story in the manual. The nascent Protoss were easily able to disconnect from their communal link (no training involved) - it led to the Aeon of Strife and I presume it's partly why the Conclave were still fearful and so rigid in "following the path" because it's so easy to fall off it like it did in the beginning and may lead to another Aeon of Strife.


And we know from BW manual that the Judicator could mind control other Protoss in the Khala.

Really? You'd have to provide a quote because there wasn't much lore in the BW manual, let alone anything about Judicators as far as I can recall.


So I think in the middle of a crisis of mind invasion there was nothing the Aiur Protoss could do but cut off their neural cords. Rohana actually found a way to isolate herself from Amon with sheer willpower and training, and I think Artanis made her cut them off more because he needed to destroy the Khala and Rohana's Khala would mean Amon would have somewhere to hide then because he was making a case of "changing her mind", so to speak.

The difficulty in extricating oneself from the Khala as you have identified would implicitly and further demand an explanation as to why the Tal'darim have no Khala and why their nerve cords don't make them vulnerable.


I think Rohana was shown to be wise in her own way.

She's not wise according the protagonist (and by extension the audience) though, just stubborn. She's petty for disapproving of Artanis' decision to mingle with the Nerazim, Purifier's and the Tal'Darim despite their race being on the verge of extinction (it's worse than the coming of the Zerg the first time round) and clings onto something that poses a very real risk to the last surviving free members of her race just because of her pride and some useless (although interesting) expository information about Amon and their origins that serves nothing to help their current predicament (Artanis' plan would've still continued as it was had he never conversed with Rohana at all).

She's worse than Aldaris since at least he believed that the Protoss were winning against their enemy at the time whereas Rohana knows from the start that they are on the losing end and yet still persists in her bigotry and selfish desire whilst offering nothing tangible in return. So while the Conclave/Judicators may have been ultimately stupid but for a reason in Sc1 (as depicted by Aldaris), the Conclave/Judicator are actually stupid for no reason (as depicted by Rohana - who is supposed to be wiser than the Conclave/Judiactors because she has access to all memories of past Protoss being a "preserver") in Sc2.


You think the Protoss sound like fanatics in SC2? To me, they sound religious, but not fanatics at all. Artanis is rather the reformist and the pragmatist. I think religiosity is something really great to explore in fiction. Might be because I'm religious myself, but I like to imagine how aliens would experience their (pretty much) non-theistic faith.

The Protoss do have baseline units called Zealots afterall, so it's not that hard to say that some level of fanaticism is at play (they "long for combat" afterall). Besides, the words are synonymous and not always linked to religion. For example, being an avid enthusiast of football would mean you're a football fanatic or "fan" for short.

[TcheQuevara]

I think we might begin to disagree here :)


They go out of their way to demonstrate that the Khala is tied to nerve cords and that the Khala can be controlled through those nerve cords. This suggests that this type of exposition is important

Yes, it was very clearly this kind of exposition you make so you can reference to it later. However, I think they made it to show what the Khala is and the emotional impact of cutting oneself from it and later destroying it completely. This is interesting, because some reviews complained of too much backstory being mentioned, some thought it was great the feeling was being cut from the Khala was mentioned, and I thought it was too little explored!

I understand that maybe they confused some people (tying nerve cords to the Khala and then mentioning guys who have the nerves and not the Khala...). But to me it was clearly because the Tal'Darim are so different and obviously they have nothing in common with the Khala (they're selfish bastards).


The nascent Protoss were easily able to disconnect from their communal link (no training involved) - it led to the Aeon of Strife

It isn't what it says. The primitive communal link was something. The Khala is based on it, but it's something else. It's much more.

I think no Protoss has the primitive communal link anymore. The Tal'Darim were cut from it since the Aeon of Strife and the Nerazim are physically incapable of it (and now the Aiur Protoss too). Perhaps it could appear again.


The difficulty in extricating oneself from the Khala as you have identified would implicitly and further demand an explanation as to why the Tal'darim have no Khala and why their nerve cords don't make them vulnerable.


To me it sounds natural that having the nerve cords isn't enough to be in the Khala, but cutting them is enough to lose it. The Khala is a discipline. It's like learning to read. The brain of a illiterate adult is different from a literate one. Once you teach an adult to learn, his brain changes in many ways (including losing musical memory, apparently) and he can't ever unlearn reading. However, you could lobotomize him. So the Tal'Darim are "illiterate", their neurology is different of those who were trained in the Khala discipline; not to mention the Khala is not simply physical, but also psionic; it seems intuitive to me that if you are not ressonating within a psionic gestalt you're not affected by what happens within it.


You'd have to provide a quote because there wasn't much lore in the BW manual, let alone anything about Judicators as far as I can recall.

Well, all we know is from the wiki, isn't it?

http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Mind_control


She's not wise according the protagonist (and by extension the audience) though, just stubborn

I disagree the views of the protagonist are the views of the audience OR the views the author wants the audience to have. It just isn't that simple. Since the Antiquity, the protagonist is the guy you both relate to and disagree with (that's Oedipus Rex according to Aristotle). Or he may be the guy you hate or the guy you want to be or the guy you're analysing or a metaphor to discuss class and capitalism.

Or, in epics, the "protagonist" is just the guy who gets more screen time (verse time?) and his emotions are not necessarily interwined with the narrative.

Even if the adds say "you are Artanis", this is an add, and it tells you of gameplay. It doesn't mean the authors want you to agree with him. They even said they wanted you to understand Amon's motivations, which Artanis certainly doesn't care about.

Source: I've been studying Aristotle's Poetics and how they relate to games since last year. I may be talking nonsense but it's nonsense I've been reading about :)


She's petty for disapproving of Artanis' decision to mingle with the Nerazim, Purifier's and the Tal'Darim despite their race being on the verge of extinction

Well, frankly I kind of think she has a point about the Tal'Darim and the Purifiers. Integrating both means a terrifying change to their identity.


poses a very real risk to the last surviving free members of her race just because of her pride and some useless (although interesting) expository information about Amon and their origins that serves nothing to help their current predicament (Artanis' plan would've still continued as it was had he never conversed with Rohana at all).

I was too surprised it was for nothing. I really thought we would be able to save the Khala in the end - we had Karax studying the Keystone in one side and Rohana probing Amon's mind in the other! But guess what... it didn't work. We can't save the Khala! They really tried, though... See, it had a narrative purpose. The name's "red herring"! I played half the game excited about the moment we'd save the Khala and when she cut her cords I was like OH WHAT THE FUCK BLIZZARD. 8/10, would get mad again.


yet still persists in her bigotry and selfish desire whilst offering nothing tangible in return

I think she's pretty heroic in carrying such burden and fighting so much evil all by herself. Paradoxically, her status as the last free mind in the Khala was outrageously lonely, and she was in company of her race again when she cut them off. As Gradius said, she was an alien from another time, among her own race. And it isn't selfish to try to preserve the metaphysical treasure the Khala was.


The Protoss do have baseline units called Zealots afterall, so it's not that hard to say that some level of fanaticism is at play (they "long for combat" afterall). Besides, the words are synonymous and not always linked to religion.

Well, it is true. But Artanis is pretty open minded and even Rohana is a very rational traditionalist. Maybe Alarak is the most fanatical of the gang. In no moment he second guesses the values he learned from Amon.

[Gradius]

I still think the plot holes are indefensible. You can't tell me that there isn't some random khalai with nerve cords stuck on some planet/asteroid out there somewhere in the universe where Amon could "hide". Rohana agreeing to cut off her nerve cords and lose millennia worth of knowledge of billions of sapient beings is a massive loss. Nobody even tried to find another way. They could have put her in stasis or something, but they invalidated all of SC1's lore just to get across the message that "collectivism & old ways = bad". Gah. Now every single faction (khalai, dark templar, taldarim) uses void energy or whatever the alternative to the khala is. It's ironic that the game pushes such an anti-collectivism message down our throats but that now all the protoss factions are even further homogenized.

Then Amon. I don't understand why he didn't just go forth with his plan to hybridize zerg/protoss before thousands of years ago. He had Narud who lived in the real world. He could communicate straight with the Tal'Darim. He had primal zerg. Why waste time getting the Overmind to attack the protoss? Just make your hybrids right then and there before the Xel'Naga kill you, or even after they kill you since death doesn't matter.

LoTV may have been a huge improvement over the previous 2 games, but I can't take any installment in SC2 seriously. :/



It isn't what it says. The primitive communal link was something. The Khala is based on it, but it's something else. It's much more.

I think no Protoss has the primitive communal link anymore. The Tal'Darim were cut from it since the Aeon of Strife and the Nerazim are physically incapable of it (and now the Aiur Protoss too). Perhaps it could appear again.

It's essentially the same thing. All Khas did was rediscover how to link to it with khaydarin crystals. He didn't make anything new.



Well, all we know is from the wiki, isn't it?

http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Mind_control
BW manual:

"Although subtle use of psionics to influence others has long been utilized by the Judicator Caste, the ability to totally control the minds or bodies of others has long been thought to be impossible. This power of command is the ultimate weapon in the arsenal of the Dark Archon. "

They use psionics to talk, so it's not surprising, but it's not mind control.

opting out of this link (not cutting their cords) by choice alone was what caused it and b) the Nerazim didn't cut off their cords originally to physically deny themselves to the Khala, but merely as a symbolic gesture.
Doesn't that go to show then that nerve cords don't necessarily give you access to the khala? The dark templar alienated themselves from their primal link just by not going into it.


(Artanis' plan would've still continued as it was had he never conversed with Rohana at all).
Didn't she use her link with Amon to discover Amon's plans? I think it was the location of his body or some such. I forget. :P

[ragnarok]

Didn't she use her link with Amon to discover Amon's plans? I think it was the location of his body or some such. I forget. :P

She did, this was why Artanis admitted in the end, the connection to the Khala wasn't worthless after all.

[Turalyon]

I think we might begin to disagree here :)

Excellent, this is where the fun begins! :p


However, I think they made it to show what the Khala is and the emotional impact of cutting oneself from it and later destroying it completely.

I understand that maybe they confused some people (tying nerve cords to the Khala and then mentioning guys who have the nerves and not the Khala...). But to me it was clearly because the Tal'Darim are so different and obviously they have nothing in common with the Khala (they're selfish bastards).

You've touched on something here I think. You've identified that the plot device that is the "Khala" is both used in the manner to elicit feels and in the manner to explain what is going on plotwise. The problem at hand then is how effective it was to use one manner to rely on the other manner as a proper explaination for it. I think that getting the audience to just intuit/feel that the Tal'Darim are different and accepting that is the wrong approach when they focused so much on the nuts and bolts of the thing from the get-go. Like I said, it feels like a cheat or bad writing rather than something that they intentionally tried in order to be clever.


It isn't what it says. The primitive communal link was something. The Khala is based on it, but it's something else. It's much more.

Yeah, it's the communal link but with a name! Definitely much more than before. :p

Jokes aside, the problem with the Khala is that the word is used to describe several things (ie: it's a religion, a system of thought, a source of psionic power, a psionic communal link etc) singularly, in multiple or all aspects at once but without specification at any given time. I've had discussions on this with someone else about this elsewhere and boy, was that difficult. My POV of the Khala stems from the original manual. It states that it is a "system of psychic progrression" which was "primarily meant to define a rigid system of behavior". In short, it was a philosophy which was distinctly separate from the communal link. Nowadays, Khala is supposed to represent all of those things together. Either way, it has been stated that a basic Protoss can easily reject the communal link and the philosophical system without having to remove their cords. Also, it never says that anyone within the Khala can physically control the actions of another within the Khala, it only just allows "feelings". I guess this makes the "mind-controlling the Protoss through the Khala" a bit of a plot-hole.


To me it sounds natural that having the nerve cords isn't enough to be in the Khala, but cutting them is enough to lose it. The Khala is a discipline. It's like learning to read. The brain of a illiterate adult is different from a literate one. Once you teach an adult to learn, his brain changes in many ways (including losing musical memory, apparently) and he can't ever unlearn reading. However, you could lobotomize him. So the Tal'Darim are "illiterate", their neurology is different of those who were trained in the Khala discipline; not to mention the Khala is not simply physical, but also psionic; it seems intuitive to me that if you are not ressonating within a psionic gestalt you're not affected by what happens within it.

Would've been great if any of this explanation was used in the game. All we have in the game is that the Khala = nerve cords, hence problems with fridge logic.


Well, all we know is from the wiki, isn't it?

Yeah, but you said BW manual. Grad's reply is just the cherry on top.


I disagree the views of the protagonist are the views of the audience OR the views the author wants the audience to have.

So do I, but I think Blizz would disagree with your disagreement. For example, they clearly want you to believe the Kerrigan is good and appropriately redeemed.


Well, frankly I kind of think she has a point about the Tal'Darim and the Purifiers. Integrating both means a terrifying change to their identity.

I'm not denying that she has a point. I'm saying that that point is frivoulous, petty and pointless in the current circumstance. Why worry about a possible future event that may not even happen when you aren't even sure that a future of any kind is even possible?


I was too surprised it was for nothing. I really thought we would be able to save the Khala in the end - we had Karax studying the Keystone in one side and Rohana probing Amon's mind in the other! But guess what... it didn't work. We can't save the Khala! They really tried, though... See, it had a narrative purpose. The name's "red herring"! I played half the game excited about the moment we'd save the Khala and when she cut her cords I was like OH WHAT THE FUCK BLIZZARD. 8/10, would get mad again.

It's worse than that. The Khala isn't really extinguished since Protoss are born with nerve cords and can therefore form the Khala again. Not only that, but the one individual who knows about it/brought it about/could control it/manipulate it is no longer around, so there's no risk to it now. Such a silly thing Rohana is, isn't she?


I think she's pretty heroic in carrying such burden and fighting so much evil all by herself. Paradoxically, her status as the last free mind in the Khala was outrageously lonely, and she was in company of her race again when she cut them off. As Gradius said, she was an alien from another time, among her own race. And it isn't selfish to try to preserve the metaphysical treasure the Khala was.

I have no doubts about any of this. It's just a pity that what she is doing, is actually selfish and comes across as selfish within the context its found in. Would've been more affecting maybe if she had the "woe is me" approach but then again, people would start lousing on her being a sexist character what with her then being a typical damsel in distress instead. Can't win em all, I guess.




You can't tell me that there isn't some random khalai with nerve cords stuck on some planet/asteroid out there somewhere in the universe where Amon could "hide".

Sssshhh, don't give Blizz any more ideas to resurrect Amon!!!!!


Rohana agreeing to cut off her nerve cords and lose millennia worth of knowledge of billions of sapient beings is a massive loss. Nobody even tried to find another way. They could have put her in stasis or something, but they invalidated all of SC1's lore just to get across the message that "collectivism & old ways = bad". Gah. Now every single faction (khalai, dark templar, taldarim) uses void energy or whatever the alternative to the khala is. It's ironic that the game pushes such an anti-collectivism message down our throats but that now all the protoss factions are even further homogenized.

Ah yes and I remember how people feared how the Zerg would be humanised. They really should have feared the Protoss being made into humans.


Then Amon. I don't understand why he didn't just go forth with his plan to hybridize zerg/protoss before thousands of years ago. He had Narud who lived in the real world. He could communicate straight with the Tal'Darim. He had primal zerg. Why waste time getting the Overmind to attack the protoss? Just make your hybrids right then and there before the Xel'Naga kill you, or even after they kill you since death doesn't matter.

His whole reasoning still makes no sense. I'm not sure if he really wants to stop the cycle or perpetuate it even though we're told it's the former. If Amon really wanted to end the cycle and was the only one responsible for the uplifting of the Protoss and Zerg, why didn't he just extinguish them right there and then? Why bother helping them at all to become an eventual threat that led to his own existence? He wants to make Hybrids, I hear you say? Why, are they not but just a twisted continuation of the cycle that he so vehemently hates to the extent he wants to murder everything in the universe? Make up your frickin' mind, Amon!


Doesn't that go to show then that nerve cords don't necessarily give you access to the khala? The dark templar alienated themselves from their primal link just by not going into it.

Yes, but that was in response to Tche establishing how important the cords were for the Khala (as LotV overtly does) since he said that the Nerazim need to cut their cords to avoid being subsumed by the Khala. All in all, what we have is that the cords are really important for the Khala, but somehow not only in specific circumstances that Blizz decline to explain. Clear as mud, that is.


Didn't she use her link with Amon to discover Amon's plans? I think it was the location of his body or some such. I forget. :P

Lol. You mean the host body that was on Aiur? The planet that Artanis was going to go back to assault anyway after he had finished collecting as many friends he could find? :p

[Nissa]

Aaaaugh! Tura used Textwall! It's super effective!

*runs for the hills*

[Turalyon]

Aaaaugh! Tura used Textwall! It's super effective!

*runs for the hills*

Yes, in time, all shall FEAR ME!!!

[DarthYam]

I don't understand the appeal behind Alarak either. He's slightly fun, but doesn't seem like an actual protoss character. His voice acting gets rave reviews for some reason, but I think he sounds like he has a speech impediment. I'm not a fan of the inclusion of the Tal'Darim to begin with, who are just darker and edgier Dark Templar. That role should have been given to some other dark templar, instead of completely dropping the unity of khala and void theme that they've been building up for multiple games to asspull an entirely new protoss civilization out of nowhere. I was sad there were no twilight templar/archons.


Exact opposite. Metzen already admitted that WoL sucked:


http://www.polygon.com/2015/11/6/9670176/starcraft-2-future-history-dlc-blizzard

He was admitting it was flawed. He still liked some of the overall ideas behind it, and thinks in some way it was ok. Honestly, WOL had some good ideas. Raynor facing his past and overcoming his inner demons? Expanding on a greater evil lurking in the shadows? Allowing Kerrigan to actually grow beyond the bland villain in brood war? All good. Even the artifact was really no worse than Brood War's pyramid (and if anything it was actually foreshadowed and built up rather than used once and abandoned). On paper the ideas in WOL were actually not bad. They were good even.

Amon was unable to actually enter his physical body due to getting it destroyed so Duran may well have spent millennia trying to regain contact or pushing the overmind to where they could meet so that Amon could be reincarnated

[DarthYam]

Heart of the Swarm's problem was that it tried to be too many things. It wanted to have Kerrigan as the conflicted anti hero, but also the vengeful warrior. What we got was schizophrenic. If Blizzard had gone with the original idea (Kerrigan spares Lassara and comes to befriend her) the story would be more coherent. Kerrigan would remain relatively noble throughout the entire story.

[ragnarok]

Heart of the Swarm's problem was that it tried to be too many things. It wanted to have Kerrigan as the conflicted anti hero, but also the vengeful warrior. What we got was schizophrenic. If Blizzard had gone with the original idea (Kerrigan spares Lassara and comes to befriend her) the story would be more coherent. Kerrigan would remain relatively noble throughout the entire story.

It would have been fine even if Blizzard chose the TOTAL vengeance path too, DarthYam.

As a lot of people from the battlenet forums have already said, the main problem in HotS was consistency. The critics said they wouldn't have minded if Blizzard chose the redemption path if it was consistent, and the same held true for the vengeful path

[ragnarok]

Amon was unable to actually enter his physical body due to getting it destroyed so Duran may well have spent millennia trying to regain contact or pushing the overmind to where they could meet so that Amon could be reincarnated

Not regaining contact at all, DarthYam.

Remember what Rohana had told Artanis before they returned to Aiur:

When the Khala came to light again (which probably is when Khas rediscovered the link)., the regular Xel'Naga confronted Amon and his followers at Zerus, and Amon unleashed the swarm, but in the end he was defeated and forced back into the void. Duran spent the next 3000 years trying to figure out a way to create a body to sustain his master.

In that regard I think Duran had known all along Amon was still alive in the void, but he was stuck there unable to do anything except give orders to Duran.

[TcheQuevara]

I still think the plot holes are indefensible. You can't tell me that there isn't some random khalai with nerve cords stuck on some planet/asteroid out there somewhere in the universe where Amon could "hide".

Well, search and you'll find. It's like eagles in LotR. Even great stories have them. I don't think this is the biggest of problems; it's easier to find out an explanation for than teh aforementioned eagles. For example, Amon wanted all enslaved Protoss there to protect him - he probably weaponized the whole protoss race in his final effort to destroy the universe; there would be no point in saving Khalai for later, and his millenar plan was jeopardized by Artanis already. Is this a forced explanation? Yes. But less so than anything I've seen to explain eagles!

The problem with SC2 isn't that it has plot holes which are too big. Is that it has plot holes that are everywhere. The story overall has little consistence. The second most important (arguably the most important) plot track of WoL - fighting against the Dominion, working for credits to build up the guerrilla, infiltrating the Odin to cause a political crisis - is an absolute mess. Brian Kindregan came out with an explanation for it, ok, I think it might have worked or not if it was explained during the game, but the problem was that while playing the game the story just sounded stupid because everything contradicted everything. This is my issue. IMHO plot holes are not always a problem.


Rohana agreeing to cut off her nerve cords and lose millennia worth of knowledge of billions of sapient beings is a massive loss. Nobody even tried to find another way. They could have put her in stasis or something, but they invalidated all of SC1's lore just to get across the message that "collectivism & old ways = bad"

Yeah, the bias against collectivism is stupid. The homogenization of Protoss isn't only lame, but also strikes me as a great contradiction - it is an attack on diversity rather than a a defense on tolerance. But Artanis had a reason for that: he quite radically decided everything must change grom now on. He says the Khala promess was a lie. I hate him for it. This is good. Stories should surprise us and deconstruct their own premisses.



Then Amon. I don't understand why he didn't just go forth with his plan to hybridize zerg/protoss before thousands of years ago.

This is easier to explain. He was dead after the war over Zerus. He still had great influence over the Overmind (who he created while he was alive), less so over Kerrigan, but he was dead. He didn't kill the Protoss because he needed them to make the next generation of hybrids. So he used his agents and built his plan over time.




It's essentially the same thing. All Khas did was rediscover how to link to it with khaydarin crystals. He didn't make anything new.


Don't know about that. Seems to me since the Khala has it's own philosophy and discipline it's necessarily different from an organic, naturally occuring mind phenomena.



They use psionics to talk, so it's not surprising, but it's not mind control.

Yes. Thanks for clarifying!




Jokes aside, the problem with the Khala is that the word is used to describe several things (ie: it's a religion, a system of thought, a source of psionic power, a psionic communal link etc) singularly, in multiple or all aspects at once but without specification at any given time. I've had discussions on this with someone else about this elsewhere and boy, was that difficult. My POV of the Khala stems from the original manual. It states that it is a "system of psychic progrression" which was "primarily meant to define a rigid system of behavior". In short, it was a philosophy which was distinctly separate from the communal link. Nowadays, Khala is supposed to represent all of those things together. Either way, it has been stated that a basic Protoss can easily reject the communal link and the philosophical system without having to remove their cords. Also, it never says that anyone within the Khala can physically control the actions of another within the Khala, it only just allows "feelings". I guess this makes the "mind-controlling the Protoss through the Khala" a bit of a plot-hole.

I like your insight about the Khala. I think it's ok if the concept is developped further than it was in the original manual, and that the word for the link is the word for the philosophy and for the social order, because that's how things are named in the real world. Thinkers have got to create new labels to dissect all a word contains in smaller parts, or to accept that a word should explain different things, because those "different things" are actually connected and none of them exist by itself but only in relation to each other.







So do I, but I think Blizz would disagree with your disagreement. For example, they clearly want you to believe the Kerrigan is good and appropriately redeemed.

In the Epilogue, I think they want you to believe she honestly tried. Even if they think she was redeemed, this doesn't mean they made any effort to make you think that too. They were more interested in Raynor and Kerrigan's feelings about this whole mess of feelings and infestation and war and fate, not about any of those things mean outside of their relationship.

However, Artanis does bow to the murderer of Raszagal and Aldaris. Something big was going on, for sure.


Why worry about a possible future event that may not even happen when you aren't even sure that a future of any kind is even possible?

That's the old deontology vs consequentialism debate, isn't it? I don't think she was frivolous at all. Certainly misguided, but she was caring deeply for the ethical weight of her decisions.



It's worse than that. The Khala isn't really extinguished since Protoss are born with nerve cords and can therefore form the Khala again. Not only that, but the one individual who knows about it/brought it about/could control it/manipulate it is no longer around, so there's no risk to it now. Such a silly thing Rohana is, isn't she?

Is it? We don't really know. I would think so. Maybe it can be reborn, but we should believe the Khala specialist that all the past knowledge is lost, and this is exactly what Artanis expect.



Ah yes and I remember how people feared how the Zerg would be humanised. They really should have feared the Protoss being made into humans.

Haha man, can't say I dislike your pessimism. Spot on.



Yes, but that was in response to Tche establishing how important the cords were for the Khala (as LotV overtly does) since he said that the Nerazim need to cut their cords to avoid being subsumed by the Khala.

I'd just like to state my opinion has changed ever since, but I wouldn't be able to explain what I believe right now.


In that regard I think Duran had known all along Amon was still alive in the void, but he was stuck there unable to do anything except give orders to Duran.

Yes, and don't forget that in Alarak's short story it is said Amon cannot be talked to.

[Turalyon]

Even if they think she was redeemed, this doesn't mean they made any effort to make you think that too.

However, Artanis does bow to the murderer of Raszagal and Aldaris. Something big was going on, for sure.

Think you just torpedoed your own position. Lol :D

Scenes like the one you just described suggest to me that Blizz intended this because I have no other reason to think otherwise... unless they're trolling.


That's the old deontology vs consequentialism debate, isn't it?

If only it were that deep or equally represented in LotV. When compared together, Rohana's position is nowhere near defensible or understandable as Aldaris's similar position. At this point in time and what has happened to the Protoss so far, her POV just amounts to bigotry for the sake of bigotry rather than for any justifiable or reasonable moral stance. She is literally advocating against allying themselves with undesirables because they MUST be worse than what Amon is inflciting upon because if that's not true, her position doesn't really make sense. It doesn't make sense the other way either since she knows they can't win as they are but then refuses outside help. I guess she's advocating suicide in this case then?


Is it? We don't really know. I would think so. Maybe it can be reborn, but we should believe the Khala specialist that all the past knowledge is lost, and this is exactly what Artanis expect.

It's not that much of gigantic leap that the Khala will comeback - Khas was able to do it after no other Protoss at the time thought that such a thing as the primal link ever existed (during the Aeon of Strife), so it shouldn't take the current Protoss that long to rediscover it. Then again, we don't really know anything in Sc anymore what with the constant retroactive continuity, so who knows. :p

[ragnarok]

Yes, and don't forget that in Alarak's short story it is said Amon cannot be talked to.

Not by the Tal'darim, no. But Duran is different, maybe he had better communications. Thus Duran served as Amon's mouthpiece to the Tal'darim people. But obviously the deception couldn't work forever.