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FanaticTemplar
11-16-2015, 12:01 AM
Usually, I need to play a game at least twice to get a good grip on the story, I get a bit too much 'into it' on the first playthrough to make the best decisions. But this has been a daunting prospect for both Heart of the Swarm and Legacy of the Void. In Heart of the Swarm, it was because I loathed the gameplay. I don't want my RTS games to revolve around hero units, and not only did that game have a tonne of baseless missions, Kerrigan (or Stukov in that one mission) was also such an important part of your army that it always felt like the rest of my troops should be complementing her. So obviously, no Mutalisks or anything she wouldn't be able to follow, and I avoided any spellcasters because I wanted to be tabbed to Kerrigan's abilities as much as possible. Add this to the options that were removed from the campaign (no Nydus Worms, no Overlord drops).

Incidentally, I've heard that the Nova DLC missions were going to play like Heart of the Swarm? StarCraft just seems to be trying to make me miserable now, isn't it?

I'm glad to say that Legacy of the Void is an improvement in this regard (although no Warp Prisms either. Only Terrans have had access to transports in this series. There's always Arbiter recalls, I guess.). The Spear of Adun is actually even more influential than Kerrigan was, but since its effects are global and some are actually used to improve your production, it restricts what you can do with your armies a whole lot less. On the other hand, to maintain the difficulty level (or increase it, this game felt on the whole harder than its predecessors) that means that the enemy needs to be souped up as well, and that generally meant hero units (Hybrids) or some truly ridiculous minion waves. So I'd still rather play Wings of Liberty than this game. Playing on Brutal at least, Gateway units feel like complete trash, even Archons are not worth the production costs involved most of the time. This is a disappointment to me of course, I went through most of StarCraft and Brood War by flooding my enemies with Hydralisks or Zealot/Dragoon. Even in Wings of Liberty I generally relied on bio in the aggressive missions and tank/viking in the defensive missions, but here this was simply not affordable. Maps that lock you down on one base are sadly common, and the others are usually two bases. And that's not "two bases at a time", where by the time you've freed up a new expansion your earlier ones are mining out. Third or more bases are a rare luxury. Building Zealots and Templar only exhausts my resources.

But the reason replaying Legacy of the Void is so daunting is not its gameplay, which is fine. This is the story I liked the least so far. Yet in many ways, it's probably the best so far. Blizzard has clearly learned from the two previous games and the story maintains a strong pace, with an often smaller number of missions in each planetary 'arc' bookended with good cinematics and the entire journey tightly focused on the overarching narrative. Gone is the meandering midgame of Wings of Liberty, or the annoyingly stretched out arcs of Heart of the Swarm where content was clearly added just to reach a desired 'three missions per planet'. The art and music are great. And I can also respect it for being a lot more bold than its predecessors. Aside from the Protoss 'prophecy arc', Wings of Liberty's greatest failure in my opinion was its unwillingness to actually remove Raynor and Kerrigan after the conclusion of its story. As I said at the time, I'm fine with this happy ending. It's an absolute garbage 'happy middle' though. Although the blame for that should more accurately be placed on Heart of the Swarm, which was just perpetual spinning in circles. Legacy of the Void is about moving forward, about not getting bogged down by slavish devotion to an often idealised past and fear of change for a new future, and that means that the Protoss change a lot from what they were previously. As such, while this story often differs wildly from what one would consider established Protoss precedent, it's deliberate and part of its narrative structure. It even removes three of its most recognisable characters from the series - Raynor, Kerrigan and Zeratul. This is a story concept I usually like (I actually recently acquired The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker recently, which uses the same theme) and one that takes quite a bit of courage to pursue - fans are by definition people who enjoyed the existing product, so the safe bet is usually to give them more of the same and offer only superficial changes. It could be said that the reason I disliked Legacy of the Void so much is because I am one of these people desperately clutching at the past and refusing to accept change. There's some of that I'm sure, but I'm just not confident that these new Protoss offer anything that makes the loss of the old ones worth it. The Wind Waker treated its past with respect but offered an optimistic future. Legacy of the Void treats its past like garbage (not all of those inconsistencies are due to moving forward, some are just good old fashioned hackjob retcons) and offers a conclusion we already had at the end of StarCraft. So while in some ways I respect it for moving forward, in other ways it's still spinning in circles the same way Heart of the Swarm was. The Protoss had to put aside their differences to save their species, and though the cost was great they are left to rebuild their civilisation together on Aiur? That's the exact conclusion of StarCraft. I've seen it before. I've seen it better.

Make no mistake though, while a lot of my hatred for this game comes from the direction it took, it's also got a mess of far more concrete failings.

So, back to the beginning, I usually wait until I've played a game twice before really casting a verdict on it. But I feel like this second playthrough is going to be a real slog, so I figured I could try updating this post section by section as I advance through the game to keep me focused on the project. And we'll see if my opinion changes as I go through it with less emotional involvement.

PROLOGUE- Whispers of Oblivion

The Prophecy arc lives again! Zeratul has really become the harbinger for the absolute worst dreck in the series, incidentally. Prophecy, Zerus, now this. With the reveal of Legacy of the Void's awesome cinematic intro, and the overall interesting short stories uploaded to Battle.net, this was the hype killer. Again, Zeratul has to run errands to obtain some vague and largely useless piece of a prophecy, and if you don't think it plays out exactly the same way, you'd be wrong. You even get a minor Templar character you just met valiantly sacrificing themselves to facilitate Zeratul's escape. It also introduces one of the major problems with the entire story: lack of antagonists. We are extremely fortunate to have Kerrigan show up in Dark Whispers to at least provide an identifiable semi-obstacle, though she never attacks you directly, and in fact is tearing through your enemies. But other than her, you get the cheap knockoff Terrans and the cheap knockoff Protoss. Legacy of the Void finally decided to graft some personality onto the Tal'darim, but no matter how much you all like Alarak, the Tal'darim still suck and serve no purpose other than to be some enemy fodder because there's no real enemy faction in this game. Moebius Corps is worst. They're just mind controlled Terrans. Don't you just love the way mind control completely removes the need for things like motivation? At least mind controlling the Golden Armada provides some measure of pathos since these are Artanis' people and the soldiers we were commanding just moments ago. Moebius Corps is comprised of troops we would have been perfectly fine killing back when they were Terran Dominion (And I am not pleased that Moebius Corps just appropriated Dominion Red, either). I've actually got a whole lot more to say about Moebius Corps (and the Tal'darim, too), but that'll wait until the Korhal missions. For now, let's just remember how in StarCraft and Brood War, the center campaign was from the invading alien force's perspective, so we had some insight into their personality and motivations. If you thought that Kerrigan and Mengsk in Wings of Liberty and Heart of the Swarm were a step down from that, then in Legacy of the Void we've reached the absolute nadir of that progression - empty vessels serving only as obstacles to us. It actually gets worst when Amon starts spewing out 'void entities', which are like the Tal'darim and Moebius Corps, except that not only are they empty husks, they are so insubstantial as to be crafted whole-cloth from the void.

There's really nothing to say about Ghosts in the Fog, much like how Choosing Sides and Into the Darkness in the original StarCraft were just one mission's worth of story spread over two, this is just about getting from Dark Whispers to Evil Awoken.

We've finally got a motivation for our big bad. Life equals suffering, end life, end suffering. Or anyway, that's his sales pitch. Just like the Tal'darim's desperate infusion of character, it's not interesting enough for me to come around to Amon. Look, just because I get told that this guy has been super important to the story of StarCraft doesn't mean I'm going to believe it. I was there, I know he isn't. This is the problem with writing a backward-looking story instead of a forward-looking story. You're reshaping existing lore to correspond to this new story, instead of shaping a story from the existing lore, and that makes it clear that the existing lore doesn't matter. And if existing lore doesn't matter, why should we care about it at all, since even the lore that matters won't by the time the next story rolls about? I'm not talking about retcons, I'm talking about what your inspiration for the story is. Your new story needs to connect to the existing material, for the sake of continuity. So if you base your story on where the setting and the characters are at, then that's already done. Take Wings of Liberty. Its story was all in the present - what happened to Raynor since Brood War, what matters to him, who does he know, where does he go, what drives him and what drags him down. You've still got retcons, like his involvement with the Heaven's Devils and Tychus, but those are things included to push the story forward, not the focus of the story. Now with Amon and the Cycle of the Xel'naga, it's all focused on the past. Nothing about the setting leads to Amon. Someone clearly looked at the StarCraft backstory and said "so these Xel'naga, where are they now? What if they had secret motives we don't know about?" And none of that matters to the current plot, so you have to force it to matter. It's the same thing that happened with the United Earth Directorate in Brood War where they get retconned into be involved all along, and now everybody's going to have to put their ongoing storylines on hold so we can deal with this new threat. It stops all momentum in the story. Amon isn't connected with what happened in StarCraft. They created an Amon backstory, and a current Amon threat, and then hammered at the current lore until it fit between the two.

We also get to meet Tassadar again, who gives us more cryptic prophecies. I don't remember how they figured out what 'the keystone' meant, but what he's saying is basically that the plot device from the first game is going to be the plot device for this game too. So I hope you all really liked that part of Wings of Liberty. Actually, I think some form of Stockholm syndrome develops with these stupid plot devices. As much as I hated the Xel'naga temple from The Stand, if the Zerg invaded Shakuras without it being addressed, I'd be up in arms about it, even though in truth I'd really rather never see that stupid thing again. Same goes with the Xel'naga artifact. And with that vague bit of prophecy under his belt, Zeratul kills some void constructs - because again, the problem with the other enemies in this game is that they have too much personality - and escapes to warn Artanis.

And he says he will face their judgement - and in Legacy of the Void, Selendis and Vorazun do call him a traitor for... killing Raszagal? I think? - but thus far, there have been no lack of Protoss willing to die for him.

And since Whispers of Oblivion is such a lame retread of the already terrible prophecy arc of Wings of Liberty, Evil Awoken is another Whispers of Doom. Whispers of Doom should not be confused with Whispers of Oblivion.

This thing was about as uninspired as it could possibly be.

LEGACY OF THE VOID - Aiur Missions

Sometimes I feel like I could keep watching that trailer forever.

Anyway, the reclamation of Aiur was something that had to happen. Unless it were to be held by some major force like Kerrigan herself, there was simply no way for the Protoss to have any kind of credibility so long as they could not retake the single most important thing in their culture from some mindless, unlead Zerg. Of course, these are the very same meaningless Zerg that passed through the Warp Gate and attacked Shakuras in The Stand, threatening to annihilate the entire Protoss species, but hopefully we're leaving that regrettable part of the series' history behind. Also, it is not entirely true that this had to happen - in the animated short Reclamation, Artanis wonders if Aiur should be retaken at all. While not one I had considered previously, this too was a possibility: the Protoss actively choosing to move forward from their history on Aiur and start anew. Interestingly, this is a major theme of Legacy of the Void, but Aiur is one of the few pieces of their history they do not sacrifice. But I'm getting ahead of myself.

We also see Selendis again, and what a phenomenal letdown she turns out to be. Selendis was one of the very first new characters introduced for StarCraft II, back when that was just one game rather than three. It's been years, so my memory's hazy, but I think it was either her or Valerian Mengsk who were the first new major character introduced. And after showing up once in a side mission in Wings of Liberty and not at all in Heart of the Swarm, she's about to get possessed by Amon and mostly disappear from the game. I don't even know what to say about that.

For Aiur! is a great counterpoint to The Evacuation of Aiur. Back then, Blizzard were showing off their new technology that allowed for things like non-human AIs fighting each other and units moving via triggers, allowing us to walk through a ruined Aiur while Protoss fought Zerg and Scourge flew overhead. Now there are Phoenixes hunting down Zerg in the sky, and that crashing Mothership is a fantastic event. Unfortunately, Hybrids show up and things are about to nosedive.

It's amazing that a single plot device can be reused as often as the Xel'naga Artifact is. I almost admire the writers at Blizzard for including it in the finale of all three games. But on the other hand, it is merely a solution to a problem that they are going to write themselves into: if they didn't choose to shove Amon into the Protoss nerve cords, there'd be no need for the Artifact at all. Maybe that would have been a better route? A deus ex machina to solve a problem introduced by meaningless mind control? Or could they think of no other way to deprive Artanis of his army?

Still, the growing threat is appropriately demonstrated. It was a surprise to see the Void Seeker destroyed after it had become familiar throughout these games, and the disappearing Khalai are a mystery. There's a chilling moment when Selendis stops answering. And we get to meet Karax, the first non-Templar character since Aldaris. I don't dislike him.

Using the Khala as a weakness is a repeat of the Zerg being vulnerable because of their hivemind in Heart of the Swarm, and the continuation of the retcon of Purity of Essence. I was actually quite sad to see Zealots run around without their nerve cords in the following mission (though the attention to detail is commendable). I have to wonder what happened at Blizzard that they decided to turn the series' greatest virtue into the corruption of Amon. I do note with thorough disappointment that this is a move that edges both Protoss and Zerg closer to 'human' and deprives them of one of their defining alien aspects. I've mentioned this before, but what do we gain in exchange for all this Protoss uniqueness we're losing? Honestly, there's surprisingly little made about losing this cornerstone of Khalai communication and society among those who've endured the loss. I think about how it would be if I lost the ability to speak, or read and write, and the loss seems phenomenal. The writers seem to think that since they, as humans, never possessed the ability, it can't be too hard to live without, but I find that to be a disappointing failure of imagination.

The fight between Artanis and Zeratul is pretty great, as most of the action scenes in this game are. It's slightly undercut by the fact that Amon seems to be keeping Artanis aloft like Puppet Zelda from The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess. Also Zeratul disintegrates into black dust, also like a Zelda boss. Seriously though, why didn't they just leave Artanis cradling his body? And now things get really bad. I'm talking of course about The Spear of Adun - not the ship, the mission where they expect you to fight the entire way off of one base Gateway trash. This was the hardest mission in the game for me. It reminds me of Heart of the Swarm where I went to Char first and had to play Fire in the Sky off one-base Zergling/Baneling. Eventually I found a solution: just turtle until I have a ridiculously overwhelming number of units so I can completely overpower anything I face and minimise losses. This is thrilling gameplay, I assure you. But at least I don't actually mine out the only available resource location on the entire map.

Oh and it takes place in the Heart of the Conclave, so that's a shoutout.

All in all, despite the terrible gameplay of The Spear of Adun and the games inability to decide whether the Khala is important or not (it veers strangely close to the media buffoons/Media Blitz dichotomy of Wings of Liberty at times) I'd say the early game of Legacy of the Void is the campaign's high point, which will continue on to the Korhal and Shakuras missions. In the Zerg we have an enemy with some background to them (though these very same Zerg were one source of my endless exasperation with The Stand in Brood War. It's ridiculous that these Zerg, who were a low point of The Stand, and the Tal'darim, who were a low point of Wings of Liberty and Heart of the Swarm, are the most personable adversaries we will face in this game. Standards have been drastically lowered apparently.) and the possessed Khalai at least have some measure of pathos in having to fight those who came here as our allies. The return to Aiur was a great start to the story, and though we were forced to flee again, it doesn't feel like the endless spinning in circles of Kerrigan's perpetual deinfestation and reinfestation. Like I said, the Protoss' return to Aiur was pretty much an inevitability, and it's a good way to introduced the new threat, even if that is just the cosmic villain of the week.

ragnarok
11-16-2015, 07:28 AM
Incidentally, I've heard that the Nova DLC missions were going to play like Heart of the Swarm? StarCraft just seems to be trying to make me miserable now, isn't it?


That's merely to show you that Nova isn't a pushover, nothing more. That being said, I don't think this is smart because we already knew that from playing Ghost of a Chance in WoL.

For the whole Whispers of Oblivion, that alone seemed illogical. You'd think his actions by HotS would have implied Zeraul already knew the whole prophecy. Otherwise, what was the point of telling Kerrigan about Zerus in the first place if he didn't know the next step?

paulacrane
05-05-2017, 06:24 AM
I totally agree with ragnarok.

ragnarok
05-05-2017, 09:40 PM
I totally agree with ragnarok.

You mean for the canon part?

sandwich_bird
05-06-2017, 08:53 AM
You mean for the canon part?

Turing test pass :)

ragnarok
05-06-2017, 02:53 PM
Turing test pass :)

Why test pass?

Turalyon
05-06-2017, 11:38 PM
I'll never get sick of that whooshing sound...

Visions of Khas
05-07-2017, 05:41 AM
I'll never get sick of that whooshing sound...



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h27AcB70Mvc

ragnarok
05-07-2017, 05:43 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h27AcB70Mvc

It's ironic you put that here because I'm watching the sequel online right now

TheEconomist
05-07-2017, 05:46 PM
Let me guess, Ragnarok commented on that post and demonstrated a distinct lack of understanding of its meaning.

In other words:

Woooooooooooooooooooooooooooooossssssssshhhhh!!!!!

Nissa
05-08-2017, 03:52 PM
I suppose a thread like this would go completely off the rails.

Okay, could someone explain LotV to me? I would finish watching a playthrough, but I would like my soul to remain attached to my body, or get induced into a retcon-induced coma.

Gradius
05-08-2017, 04:10 PM
I suppose a thread like this would go completely off the rails.

Okay, could someone explain LotV to me? I would finish watching a playthrough, but I would like my soul to remain attached to my body, or get induced into a retcon-induced coma.
So not only have you not played it you haven't even watched an LP? How have you been talking about it anyway then this whole time?

ragnarok
05-08-2017, 05:18 PM
Let me guess, Ragnarok commented on that post and demonstrated a distinct lack of understanding of its meaning.

In other words:

Woooooooooooooooooooooooooooooossssssssshhhhh!!!!!

Time to make a tally list every time I hear the wosh sound from the guy

Nissa
05-08-2017, 07:23 PM
So not only have you not played it you haven't even watched an LP? How have you been talking about it anyway then this whole time?

I have seen an LP. I just didn't finish it. If you've noticed, I never talked terribly much about the latest incarnation of the Tal'darim. I've seen bits and pieces of the latter stuff here and there, but I just couldn't get all the way through.

Visions of Khas
05-08-2017, 08:48 PM
Nissa, go ahead and finish it up! Jay Borino's got the whole series. He's a good player who focuses heavily on lore. I think you'll enjoy it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQenY1mfz2E&list=PLMmfhvBzj4FAAmQsEaEHIhY1MFvnt_FDA

Gradius
05-08-2017, 09:41 PM
Jaybo focuses more on gameplay than lore, but I recommend his videos to everyone.

Turalyon
05-09-2017, 04:16 AM
Okay, could someone explain LotV to me?

I would, but it's better if I just refer you to wikipedia.

TLDR? In short, some stuff happened. No need to thank me. :cool:

TheEconomist
05-09-2017, 06:48 AM
So not only have you not played it you haven't even watched an LP? How have you been talking about it anyway then this whole time?

Oh for FUCK sake, Nissa!

Visions of Khas
05-09-2017, 07:46 AM
You're right, Gradius, my bad. I was watching John Wolfe -- formerly Harshly Critical -- and he was breaking down the backstory of a game as he played through it. Guess I confused the two. But Jay does go focus some on story, too. I remember his videos on StarCraft Mapster content and puzzling out character arcs and plots.

KaiserStratosTygo
05-09-2017, 11:36 AM
Ragpls

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ES7XJIE9n08

ragnarok
05-09-2017, 01:53 PM
Ragpls

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ES7XJIE9n08

Oh I saw that vid long ago

TheEconomist
05-09-2017, 07:04 PM
I just bet everything I have that Rag is still raggin', and I don't feel the slightest bit nervous about it.

ragnarok
05-09-2017, 11:28 PM
Besides Stratos, I'm still making the tally count list

TheEconomist
05-10-2017, 06:09 AM
*Sandwitching Ragpost to confirm theory*

Back on topic, I'mt thinking of watching one of those let's play. It might be nice to absorb the story, cutscenes, etc without the distraction of Brutal difficulty.

ragnarok
05-10-2017, 08:35 AM
Jaybo focuses more on gameplay than lore, but I recommend his videos to everyone.

When I talked to him on the LotV prologue, he told me after HotS the story went WAY downhill, and therefore didn't bother hoping LotV could do better

GnaReffotsirk
05-13-2017, 02:59 PM
Well, Nissa, LotV:

1. Amon has taken control of the Khala, but it seems his control of it is limited on Aiur. Nobody notices it. Not even Zeratul. At least he never mentions it, even if it meant the death of the Khalai, in essence.

2. Oblivious to this reality, the Khalai finalizes their plans, launched the spear head assault force, creating a beach head on Aiur, and the entire Protoss armada begins their sweep. They take city after city, restored the conduits, and ultimately bring everyone on the surface of Aiur.

3. Amon mind controls the Khalai, one after another. Selendis falls victim, Artanis too. But Zeratul, even with his shadow strike ability, was unable to shadow strike the nerve cords of Artanis before he gets shanked. No development how he got to know, or realize that the Khala is compromised. He just appears to know.

4. Artanis is freed. And meets up with the rest who had their nerve cords cut. Escapes Aiur, with the spear of Adun.

I couldn't remember anything afterward. It seems my brain is trying to reject it like how the Preserver tried to reject Amon. Which was also under developed, and was not given any explanation at least as to why Amon cannot fully control her.

Is amon out of mana, or has he reached max supply cap?

ragnarok
05-13-2017, 03:16 PM
Well, Nissa, LotV:

1. Amon has taken control of the Khala, but it seems his control of it is limited on Aiur. Nobody notices it. Not even Zeratul. At least he never mentions it, even if it meant the death of the Khalai, in essence.


Actually I find that stupid that it's limited to only Aiur. Surely he had to know not ALL of the Khalai would come for the retaking of their homeworld, however much they wanted it. Here I thought Amon was able to take control of it regardless of where any Khalai Protoss were. I'll go back and look again

Gradius
05-13-2017, 03:21 PM
The golden armada went all over the sector, so it's not really limited to Aiur.

GnaReffotsirk
05-13-2017, 03:26 PM
That's the thing. It seems his mind control cast range is limited to aiur. But he can send his controlled units to the edge of the map.

Also, when the Artifact vacuumed Amon, at the ending, what was the point of cutting their nerve cords? If Artanis called in the artillery and zeroed before amon reached out again, what then?

Visions of Khas
05-13-2017, 03:34 PM
Also, when the Artifact vacuumed Amon, at the ending, what was the point of cutting their nerve cords? If Artanis called in the artillery and zeroed before amon reached out again, what then?

My best guess is that the Khala provided the one foothold in the material universe that Amon needed to stay anchored. When the Artifact imploded, there was no foothold left for Amon to cling on to, so he was expelled back to the Void.

Had the majority of the Protoss not severed themselves, Amon would have clung on to the Khala, escaping imprisonment to the Void. (I say "Majority" because I severely doubt every single Protoss severed their nerve cords at that moment; there had to be many still off Aiur at that time. But when the majority of the Aiur Protoss severed their cords, the Khala's "footprint" was reduced considerably, leaving nothing substantial for Amon to grasp.)

GnaReffotsirk
05-13-2017, 03:39 PM
Makes sense.

ragnarok
05-13-2017, 09:06 PM
Had the majority of the Protoss not severed themselves, Amon would have clung on to the Khala, escaping imprisonment to the Void. (I say "Majority" because I severely doubt every single Protoss severed their nerve cords at that moment; there had to be many still off Aiur at that time. But when the majority of the Aiur Protoss severed their cords, the Khala's "footprint" was reduced considerably, leaving nothing substantial for Amon to grasp.)

Interesting, didn't think about the number of Protoss in that respect. Makes me wonder just how many would have actually needed to retain the Khala in order for Amon to stay in the material universe....

Gradius
05-14-2017, 09:49 AM
What would have happened if Amon never recalled the Golden Armada back to Aiur? The artifact would have just sucked him in and pooped him back out again or what?

Turalyon
05-14-2017, 09:58 AM
My best guess is that the Khala provided the one foothold in the material universe that Amon needed to stay anchored. When the Artifact imploded, there was no foothold left for Amon to cling on to, so he was expelled back to the Void.

Had the majority of the Protoss not severed themselves, Amon would have clung on to the Khala, escaping imprisonment to the Void.

I thought the Overmind's carcass was the foothold that allowed Amon to anchor into the material universe and provided the means for Amon to control the Protoss through the Khala. If Amon was already in the material universe from the start of Sc2, he wouldn't have waited until LotV to control the Protoss and Zeratul should've noticed something when he went poking around the Overmind's remains.

I'm guessing that Artanis wasn't really sure what would happen either but I'm certain he wasn't going to hedge his bets at that moment and risk Amon coming back/mind controlling them. Cutting off the cords had worked before and prevents any chance of mind control, so it was probably the most wise move at the time for all of them to cut their own cords themselves while they still could rather than risk more potential slaughter.

Visions of Khas
05-14-2017, 11:34 AM
I thought the Overmind's carcass was the foothold that allowed Amon to anchor into the material universe and provided the means for Amon to control the Protoss through the Khala. If Amon was already in the material universe from the start of Sc2, he wouldn't have waited until LotV to control the Protoss and Zeratul should've noticed something when he went poking around the Overmind's remains.

Well, Duran resurrected Amon with Kerrigan's essence on the world of Atrias. I'm guessing this process allowed Amon to "extrude" his essence from the Void and into the material world. How he anchored himself without a body is anybody's guess. I guess we could go with Diablo rules and reason his essence wandered around until it came to Aiur and used some "backdoor" he built into the Communal Link.

The Artifact extracted him from the Khala. With the Communal Link severed, and Amon's most previous form/housing (The Artifact) destroyed, he was pushed back to the Void.

What signs were there that Amon used the Overmind's carcass?

ragnarok
05-14-2017, 02:14 PM
What would have happened if Amon never recalled the Golden Armada back to Aiur? The artifact would have just sucked him in and pooped him back out again or what?

Likely. Remember, Artanis specifically said that once Amon was sucked into the Keystone, it was vital to convince the other Khalai Protoss to cut their chords. This means that if they chose not to, it would have all been for nothing.


I thought the Overmind's carcass was the foothold that allowed Amon to anchor into the material universe and provided the means for Amon to control the Protoss through the Khala. If Amon was already in the material universe from the start of Sc2, he wouldn't have waited until LotV to control the Protoss and Zeratul should've noticed something when he went poking around the Overmind's remains.

I'm guessing that Artanis wasn't really sure what would happen either but I'm certain he wasn't going to hedge his bets at that moment and risk Amon coming back/mind controlling them. Cutting off the cords had worked before and prevents any chance of mind control, so it was probably the most wise move at the time for all of them to cut their own cords themselves while they still could rather than risk more potential slaughter.

You don't know that for the Overmind's body. The main problem here is we don't know why Amon wasn't able to get out of the Void prior to Kerrigan's defeat at the end of WoL. Because Stukov said that Duran had been trying to revive his master for thousands of years, it would imply that Amon had been IMPRISONED in the void, and Kerrigan's essence was the last piece of the puzzle needed to free him. As for the whole poking the Overmind's remains, all Zeratul was able to get was that someone was controlling the Overmind was above and that's it. If you had looked at the mission objectives back in that mission, it specifically said Zeratul was trying to extract memories from the Overmind's RESIDUE, which could mean that whatever was still left of the corpse didn't have the memories he needed to know about Amon (at least not yet)

Turalyon
05-15-2017, 03:51 AM
Well, Duran resurrected Amon with Kerrigan's essence on the world of Atrias. I'm guessing this process allowed Amon to "extrude" his essence from the Void and into the material world. How he anchored himself without a body is anybody's guess. I guess we could go with Diablo rules and reason his essence wandered around until it came to Aiur and used some "backdoor" he built into the Communal Link.

The Artifact extracted him from the Khala. With the Communal Link severed, and Amon's most previous form/housing (The Artifact) destroyed, he was pushed back to the Void.

Eh, it's just the same as saying "MAGIC!" really. However, it does have a semblance of logic (to a degree), so I'll take it!


What signs were there that Amon used the Overmind's carcass?

None. I just guessed/thought/deduced it was due to this since Amon was technically free/resurrected at the end of WoL and could've mind controlled the Protoss at anytime between the end of WoL and the start of LotV, yet it didn't. I guessed that the reason it didn't then was maybe because it couldn't or had a restriction. Even though Amon only mind controls the Protoss once their invasion force lands on Aiur in LotV, I don't believe the restriction was due to limitations of distance or being localised to Aiur since Amon can possess Rohanna on the Spear of Adun at any time throughout the campaign and can maintain his control over the Golden Armada as they fly about the galaxy wreaking destruction. Hence the Overmind carcass thing as a possible explanation. Plus, it would seem like a convenient plot device to explain away the question of why Amon didn't just mind control the Protoss earlier than when he actually did in LotV.

Visions of Khas
05-15-2017, 05:31 AM
Hence the Overmind carcass thing as a possible explanation. Plus, it would seem like a convenient plot device to explain away the question of why Amon didn't just mind control the Protoss earlier than when he actually did in LotV.

The Overmind did embed itself at a nexus of psionic energies on Aiur. And I always wanted that khaydarin crystal used by the Overmind to have some significance at some point...

ragnarok
05-15-2017, 06:37 PM
The Overmind did embed itself at a nexus of psionic energies on Aiur. And I always wanted that khaydarin crystal used by the Overmind to have some significance at some point...

It's a shame they didn't explain this more. The Overmind specifically said the crystals held power untold of, which implied it can do a lot more than the Protoss using it like some Duracell battery. He said that it was upon the sacred ground where the temple was built that he may be manifest.

The crystal was needed to strengthen him, though I'm still unsure why he had to choose that specific location....

Visions of Khas
05-15-2017, 07:47 PM
The crystal was needed to strengthen him, though I'm still unsure why he had to choose that specific location....

Ugh, well I guess it depends on the lens through which you view it.

The Overmind states that "It is upon that ground alone that [he] may be manifest," and the Temple stands upon ground "Most hallowed." Back in the pre-StarCraft II days, this might imply a psychic significance, a leyline of energies converging on that spot, just as the Xel'Naga Temple on Shakuras was cited atop a nexus of cosmic energies.

If, however, we view these events post-LotV, then a couple more things may be at play. First we have to keep in mind that it may be pure hubris on Amon's part. "It was here I first made footfall to create the Protoss, and it is here that the Protoss shall fall by my hand!" Moreover, maybe there is some geological or psychic significance that Amon imbued that location with.

One other thing I thought of, from another conversation: Maybe that location served as the aperture or "opening" to the Psionic Matrix of Aiur, and it was through this that Amon insinuated himself within the Khala. Perhaps that was his goal too with the Overmind; for it the lay claim over the Protoss' minds.

Turalyon
05-16-2017, 04:16 AM
^ It just occurred to me that if the Overmind was under the influence of Amon, that Amon created that Temple on Aiur and that Amon was ultimately intending to use the Overmind as a means to be physically manifest himself, it could be that Amon planned for and "guided" the Overmind to land there all along. Whether it died or not being of no consequence.

Makes you wonder then whether the Overmind really found and thought of Kerrigan as being a saviour for the Zerg when it supposedly had "no free will" or rather that Kerrigan was actually also part of Amon's plan to find enough energy to resurrect himself.

This could potentially work in allowing the Overmind to still have it's own agency as seen in Sc1 but also coincide with the inclusion of Amon's plans in Sc2. The "Overmind being an unwitting pawn to Amon all along" explanation is still somewhat distasteful on a subjective level. However, it does make more sense than the paradoxical "Overmind being a slave and having no free will whatsoever but only selectively when it counts" explanation... an explanation which is cast into doubt anyway when it's revealed that the source of this explanation, Ouros, has reason to lie and is a liar.

ragnarok
05-16-2017, 03:11 PM
^ It just occurred to me that if the Overmind was under the influence of Amon, that Amon created that Temple on Aiur and that Amon was ultimately intending to use the Overmind as a means to be physically manifest himself, it could be that Amon planned for and "guided" the Overmind to land there all along. Whether it died or not being of no consequence.

Makes you wonder then whether the Overmind really found and thought of Kerrigan as being a saviour for the Zerg when it supposedly had "no free will" or rather that Kerrigan was actually also part of Amon's plan to find enough energy to resurrect himself.

This could potentially work in allowing the Overmind to still have it's own agency as seen in Sc1 but also coincide with the inclusion of Amon's plans in Sc2. The "Overmind being an unwitting pawn to Amon all along" explanation is still somewhat distasteful on a subjective level. However, it does make more sense than the paradoxical "Overmind being a slave and having no free will whatsoever but only selectively when it counts" explanation... an explanation which is cast into doubt anyway when it's revealed that the source of this explanation, Ouros, has reason to lie and is a liar.

Did Amon really have any SPECIFIC plans for the Overmind other than merely to assimilate the Protoss people and create the hybrid? Because if there's no specifics, the Overmind still had free will in a sense in how this is to be done. If that's true, it was the Overmind's own decision to manifest itself at that Aiur location, not Amon's.

Kerrigan wasn't supposed to be part of Amon's plan. The end cutscene of the Infinite Cycle mission made that clear, when Amon clearly stated that the Overmind was a traitor to his plans.

Turalyon
05-17-2017, 07:43 AM
Did Amon really have any SPECIFIC plans for the Overmind other than merely to assimilate the Protoss people and create the hybrid? Because if there's no specifics, the Overmind still had free will in a sense in how this is to be done. If that's true, it was the Overmind's own decision to manifest itself at that Aiur location, not Amon's.

Who knows... I'd rather disbelieve anything that "Tassadar" says in WoL when it was revealed that it was Ouros all along just manipulating and lying just to get what he wanted because that would make it easier: the Overmind in Sc1 was always metaphysically free and that it did what it did not to rail against Amon but to serve the Zerg/it's own agenda of being "perfect".

However, given that Sc2 suggests that there's "free will of a kind" with that Overmind retcon, that BW Kerrigan may have been under the influence of Amon, that Xel'Naga are gods with the power of precognition and that whatever the Overmind/Kerrigan did in Sc1/BW somehow also furthered Amons plans (or perhaps even anticipated/planned for because Amon is supposed to have some grand, masterplan apparently), the possibility exists that it is not all just coincidental.


Kerrigan wasn't supposed to be part of Amon's plan. The end cutscene of the Infinite Cycle mission made that clear, when Amon clearly stated that the Overmind was a traitor to his plans.

I don't really get why Amon would call the Overmind the "Great Betrayer" when everything it did furthered Amon's ultimate plan for dominance and that the Overmind's actions were all potentially influenced by Amon in the first place. Had the Overmind not been killed in Sc1 by Protoss (something that was entirely out of Amon's hand/influence) and achieved it's goal, Amon would've technically won by proxy...

ragnarok
05-17-2017, 11:25 PM
I don't really get why Amon would call the Overmind the "Great Betrayer" when everything it did furthered Amon's ultimate plan for dominance and that the Overmind's actions were all potentially influenced by Amon in the first place. Had the Overmind not been killed in Sc1 by Protoss (something that was entirely out of Amon's hand/influence) and achieved it's goal, Amon would've technically won by proxy...

Well, the way I saw it could be that Amon knew all along that the Overmind hated taking orders from him (Ouros was accurate on that part) and therefore wanted a way out of the whole mess. Amon couldn't see just WHAT the Overmind was trying to do, but perhaps he knew all along the Overmind would find some way to defy him, maybe even take the swarm's control away from him.


However, given that Sc2 suggests that there's "free will of a kind" with that Overmind retcon, that BW Kerrigan may have been under the influence of Amon, that Xel'Naga are gods with the power of precognition and that whatever the Overmind/Kerrigan did in Sc1/BW somehow also furthered Amons plans (or perhaps even anticipated/planned for because Amon is supposed to have some grand, masterplan apparently), the possibility exists that it is not all just coincidental.

Kerrigan's actions in BW suggested nothing of the kind of Amon's influence. And in any case she specifically told Zurvan that it was more like background noise or something. Back in BW she merely wanted the swarm for herself, never again to be a slave. She just didn't understand that didn't give her the right to subjugate others.

It's something a lot of people still discuss even today: if there never was a threat from Amon, and no prophecy, just what exactly WAS she planning to do in the aftermath of BW?

Turalyon
05-18-2017, 04:31 AM
Well, the way I saw it could be that Amon knew all along that the Overmind hated taking orders from him

That's a lot of supposition there. We don't even really know if the Overmind was taking orders (since Ouros/"Tassadar" says the Overmind had no free will and that he is an unreliable narrator due to his deceit) nor really whether it hated them or not, let alone consider whether Amon was aware enough of it and do something (or not) about it.

Anyways, if we are to consider the Overmind's action in Sc1 as all being part of Amon's plan, there's nothing there to suggest that it betrayed Amon in anyway because had the Overmind not died, Amon would've won. The Overmind's death was the only thing that started the chain of events leading to Kerrigan being the one to defeat Amon, but it's death was hardly the Overmind's fault or within its ability to control (especially since it's supposed to be having no free will). By retconning that the Overmind went on Aiur to die by choice (as some have theorised but was never actually confirmed) undermines everything that the Zerg represent and is inconsistent with the Overmind supposedly having no free will. It also devalues the Protoss' victory over the Zerg (ie: the Protoss only won not because of their tenacity but because the Overmind allowed it to happen). There was discussion on this matter awhile back...


Kerrigan's actions in BW suggested nothing of the kind of Amon's influence. And in any case she specifically told Zurvan that it was more like background noise or something. Back in BW she merely wanted the swarm for herself, never again to be a slave. She just didn't understand that didn't give her the right to subjugate others.

In light of Sc2, t's kinda odd that they didn't retcon this more obviously to specifically say that BW Kerrigan was under Amon's influence. It would've helped pawn off Sc2's idea of Kerrigan having always been good deep-down and also would have given those insane Kerrigan apologists a precedent.


It's something a lot of people still discuss even today: if there never was a threat from Amon, and no prophecy, just what exactly WAS she planning to do in the aftermath of BW?

She makes it clear in her speech at the end of BW. She allows them a reprieve in order to test their resolve and strengths but that they'll ultimately be all hers in the end for none shall ever dispute her rule again. In short, she was planning to either kill or enslave them all eventually.

Visions of Khas
05-18-2017, 07:14 AM
She makes it clear in her speech at the end of BW. She allows them a reprieve in order to test their resolve and strengths but that they'll ultimately be all hers in the end for none shall ever dispute her rule again. In short, she was planning to either kill or enslave them all eventually.

I liked the narrative of an abuse victim given power over her abusers, and taking things to the Nth degree. I always wanted and expected a more psychological story with Heart of the Swarm, but was naturally disappointed.

ragnarok
05-19-2017, 02:03 AM
In light of Sc2, t's kinda odd that they didn't retcon this more obviously to specifically say that BW Kerrigan was under Amon's influence. It would've helped pawn off Sc2's idea of Kerrigan having always been good deep-down and also would have given those insane Kerrigan apologists a precedent.


Somehow I don't think Blizzard really thought about that part, they just expected the players to shoot off theories (like how we did at the end of BW with the hybrid Duran made)


She makes it clear in her speech at the end of BW. She allows them a reprieve in order to test their resolve and strengths but that they'll ultimately be all hers in the end for none shall ever dispute her rule again. In short, she was planning to either kill or enslave them all eventually.

Which really makes you wonder why she was thinking maybe the BW ending was a hollow victory for her.


I liked the narrative of an abuse victim given power over her abusers, and taking things to the Nth degree. I always wanted and expected a more psychological story with Heart of the Swarm, but was naturally disappointed.

That's because Blizzard didn't know how to develop her, so they thought "Oh well there's no SC lore fan alive anymore who remembers her as anything BUT the QoB, so let's just revert her back. No one will notice."

Turalyon
05-19-2017, 04:45 AM
I liked the narrative of an abuse victim given power over her abusers, and taking things to the Nth degree. I always wanted and expected a more psychological story with Heart of the Swarm, but was naturally disappointed.

Ditto. I remember mentioning some of the psychological aspects that they could've employed around the time when HotS was about to be released. One of these ways I put forth was to explore how Kerrigan, in her deinfested state, comes to realise that she is still a monster and may have always been despite being human again. A realisation that is triggered by her killing Mengsk of all things. That realisation would lead her to become the monster on the outside to match the monster within by going back to the Zerg...


Which really makes you wonder why she was thinking maybe the BW ending was a hollow victory for her.

I liked to think of this as the beginning of Kerrigan slowing becoming aware of the consequences that stem from her own pschological damage.

ragnarok
05-20-2017, 04:18 AM
I liked to think of this as the beginning of Kerrigan slowing becoming aware of the consequences that stem from her own pschological damage.

Somehow I doubt that. We all know actions have consequences, but it seemed in BW her mentality was that she could get around that.